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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action.
Nachtwind
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany1130 Posts
April 30 2013 02:59 GMT
#9281
On April 30 2013 11:51 micronesia wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 11:27 Nachtwind wrote:
On April 30 2013 10:55 micronesia wrote:
On April 30 2013 10:22 Nachtwind wrote:
I mean half of the US people would like so see more hard weapon rights. But when i would count the pro gun people in this thread i think i would come to a value like 80% pro gun.
This result is not very well supported.

How can you tell who is 'pro gun' and who is 'against guns'? It isn't as black and white as you make it sound, and many people in this thread have moderate viewpoints or don't fully represent their view as they play devil's advocate with what someone else said.

The percentage of people in this thread who have a view (even if you check to see which people are labeled as in the USA) in one direction or the other does not have any reason to be a representative sample of the USA population. This is an esports rts/moba/etc website, which has a much narrower demographic than say, facebook (and even fb wouldn't be a great sample but it would be somewhat more representative at least).

Also saying 'half of the US people would like to see more hard weapon rights' is difficult to defend but I won't go there.

Well whatever i won´t battle with anyone from US and a person of power from this forum.

You don't have to worry about battling a 'person of power' since I wouldn't use mod powers when having a discussion about a controversial topic (it should be this way for all staff). On the other hand, I can't imagine why you feel the need to 'battle' me unless you feel like what I said was somehow wrong.


Sorry. Don´t meant to battle to start a discussion fight with you or anybody. Was just a bad usage of words.
invisible tetris level master
Millitron
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2611 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-30 03:13:42
April 30 2013 03:12 GMT
#9282
On April 30 2013 10:22 Nachtwind wrote:
I only heared that the US have 30k shoting victims every year.

Only 11,000 are homicides. Most of the rest a suicides. An extremely tiny fraction are accidents.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

Homicides also includes legitimate self-defense shootings too, not just murder.

Besides, alcohol kills 100k a year or so, why not restrict that more? Clearly its three times as dangerous.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_alcohol_related_deaths_occur_each_year
Who called in the fleet?
Nachtwind
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany1130 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-30 03:38:15
April 30 2013 03:33 GMT
#9283
On April 30 2013 12:12 Millitron wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 10:22 Nachtwind wrote:
I only heared that the US have 30k shoting victims every year.

Only 11,000 are homicides. Most of the rest a suicides. An extremely tiny fraction are accidents.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

Homicides also includes legitimate self-defense shootings too, not just murder.

Besides, alcohol kills 100k a year or so, why not restrict that more? Clearly its three times as dangerous.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_alcohol_related_deaths_occur_each_year


That is a third place war zone you´re planing and has nothing to do with the original discusion.
invisible tetris level master
JMDj
Profile Joined September 2010
United States454 Posts
April 30 2013 03:39 GMT
#9284
On April 30 2013 12:33 Nachtwind wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 12:12 Millitron wrote:
On April 30 2013 10:22 Nachtwind wrote:
I only heared that the US have 30k shoting victims every year.

Only 11,000 are homicides. Most of the rest a suicides. An extremely tiny fraction are accidents.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

Homicides also includes legitimate self-defense shootings too, not just murder.

Besides, alcohol kills 100k a year or so, why not restrict that more? Clearly its three times as dangerous.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_alcohol_related_deaths_occur_each_year


That is a third place war zone you´re planing and has nothing to do with the original discusion.

edit: also i like your fast edit about accident shootings, but np


No offense but I really can't understand your posts mate, your english is quite poor
Millitron
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2611 Posts
April 30 2013 03:51 GMT
#9285
On April 30 2013 12:33 Nachtwind wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 12:12 Millitron wrote:
On April 30 2013 10:22 Nachtwind wrote:
I only heared that the US have 30k shoting victims every year.

Only 11,000 are homicides. Most of the rest a suicides. An extremely tiny fraction are accidents.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

Homicides also includes legitimate self-defense shootings too, not just murder.

Besides, alcohol kills 100k a year or so, why not restrict that more? Clearly its three times as dangerous.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_alcohol_related_deaths_occur_each_year


That is a third place war zone you´re planing and has nothing to do with the original discusion.

The accidents wasn't the edit. I forgot to post the source for my alcohol statistic.

In any case, yes, our homicide rate is pretty high compared to Europe. And yes, a lot of those homicides are committed with guns. But even if you completely get rid of every last gun, we still have a much higher homicide rate that Europe.

Total homicide rate in US: 4.8
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Homicide-by-guns rate in US: 2.75
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-01-31/u-dot-s-dot-gun-homicide-rates-a-comparative-look

So, assuming every single homicide-by-gun could be removed by restricting guns (it wouldnt, people would use other weapons), we STILL have a homicide rate of 2.05, which is STILL much higher than Europe. Which means guns aren't the problem. My money is on Socioeconomic reasons, since they're to blame for pretty much all other crime.

All this still ignores the double-standard that alcohol kills three times as many people, yet it isn't demonized.
Who called in the fleet?
Nachtwind
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany1130 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-30 04:04:30
April 30 2013 03:57 GMT
#9286
So even if ~1/3 ( 11k from 30k ? ) of your victims are homicides what´s with the rest?

On April 30 2013 12:39 Swagasaurus wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On April 30 2013 12:33 Nachtwind wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 12:12 Millitron wrote:
On April 30 2013 10:22 Nachtwind wrote:
I only heared that the US have 30k shoting victims every year.

Only 11,000 are homicides. Most of the rest a suicides. An extremely tiny fraction are accidents.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

Homicides also includes legitimate self-defense shootings too, not just murder.

Besides, alcohol kills 100k a year or so, why not restrict that more? Clearly its three times as dangerous.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_alcohol_related_deaths_occur_each_year


That is a third place war zone you´re planing and has nothing to do with the original discusion.

edit: also i like your fast edit about accident shootings, but np


No offense but I really can't understand your posts mate, your english is quite poor



I´m sorry you can´t understand me. It´s a german adage. I´ll work on my translations.
invisible tetris level master
Myrddraal
Profile Joined December 2010
Australia937 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-30 04:47:58
April 30 2013 04:03 GMT
#9287
On April 30 2013 11:40 Sermokala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 10:21 Myrddraal wrote:
On April 30 2013 09:08 Sermokala wrote:
On April 30 2013 08:44 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On April 30 2013 08:32 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 07:46 Nachtwind wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:58 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:29 Nachtwind wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:28 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:21 Millitron wrote:
[quote]
Using a gun defensively doesn't necessarily mean shooting them. Simply drawing the gun is often enough to scare off common thugs.


Yeah, I've mentioned that before in this thread as well. People keep equating "concealed carry" to "shooting robbers and costing unnecessary deaths" and anything beyond that is just too much hypothetical for them to discuss.


The moment someone shot someone because out of nervous reaction this argument is done.


Just because you aren't willing to have a discussion about other possible outcomes doesn't mean the argument is "done".


I would really like to discuse this but i´m lacking the spirit of someone who got raised in the US. Germany has the most hard/difficult gun laws in the world and i´m biased against guns. So i´m not a good speaker when it´s about american gun laws and i lack objectivity.

I´m only saying that this situation you´re describing is a case where you´re equalize the usage of fear. And the moment where you used lethal force as an accident, instead of fear, the whole concept of equalizing is done.

I´ve talked with some friends and guys i know from our local weapon shops and schützenvereinen and in the end the pro side always comes down to this in germany. We fear them so let us wear weapons so they fear us(the self defense side, not talking about sports/hunting). This thought process is common with countrys that are having a nuclear weaponary.


Well basically my understanding of your position is that the possibility of someone shooting someone by mistake (nervous reaction) is enough justification to take away someones right to have a concealed weapon on them. It isn't a bad argument against guns by any means, but I feel that it falls short of justification when you weigh in all of the benefits of having a concealed carry.


That's the thing about hypotheticals. Everyone has their own take. Everyone has their own imagined scenario and counter scenario. Let's discuss documented facts instead of play theory crafting. More productive IMHO

I found this picture on the internet and its the foundation of my entire platform that I feel oh so strongly about though. I don't have to read the fine print though beacuse it agrees with me.

+ Show Spoiler [reallylargepicture] +
[image loading]


The irony comes with where I got the picture. Its a pretty crazy website all in all.


So your foundation is a collection of cherry picked data to make guns look amazing, which sources must be solid because they "agree" with you and yet I'm the ignorant one... okay.

How on gods green earth do you come to this. Its dripping with sarcasm well beyond what should be considered to express sarcasm. I never said that you were the ignorant one, I'm the one thats anti gun control and get painted as ignorant all the time. Its literally the fullest extent of snark possible to express with words,


How on gods green earth indeed, I don't know what I was thinking, oh wait, remember when you posted this in response to me?

Just because your completely ignorant about the subject doesn't mean you get to just blame every mass shooting on people that don't agree with you. Your entire post is just hate filled stawmans with blind ignorance.

Your post is literally the opposite of Logical and ethical discussion in every possible way. You have so much hate for people you don't know and you don't understand because they don't follow your worldview exactly. You are a perfect embodiment of what you hate.


So yeah, you kinda said it twice in as many sentences.

Edit: Sorry I misread, I thought you said it's "my foundation" indicating that it was what you believe. I do apologise for thinking that that was your position and for completely missing the sarcasm.

[stranded]: http://www.indiedb.com/games/stranded
kmillz
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1548 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-30 04:11:02
April 30 2013 04:06 GMT
#9288
On April 30 2013 10:45 FallDownMarigold wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 09:38 kmillz wrote:

Where is the evidence of telescoping and false positives? Doesn't mean anything without proof.


In the book. No, it is not my job to provide the book. If you want to check it out at your local library, feel free. Info is provided above in one of my posts. If you don't believe it's there, K, cool, your loss.

Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 10:21 Myrddraal wrote:
On April 30 2013 09:08 Sermokala wrote:
On April 30 2013 08:44 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On April 30 2013 08:32 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 07:46 Nachtwind wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:58 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:29 Nachtwind wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:28 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:21 Millitron wrote:
[quote]
Using a gun defensively doesn't necessarily mean shooting them. Simply drawing the gun is often enough to scare off common thugs.


Yeah, I've mentioned that before in this thread as well. People keep equating "concealed carry" to "shooting robbers and costing unnecessary deaths" and anything beyond that is just too much hypothetical for them to discuss.


The moment someone shot someone because out of nervous reaction this argument is done.


Just because you aren't willing to have a discussion about other possible outcomes doesn't mean the argument is "done".


I would really like to discuse this but i´m lacking the spirit of someone who got raised in the US. Germany has the most hard/difficult gun laws in the world and i´m biased against guns. So i´m not a good speaker when it´s about american gun laws and i lack objectivity.

I´m only saying that this situation you´re describing is a case where you´re equalize the usage of fear. And the moment where you used lethal force as an accident, instead of fear, the whole concept of equalizing is done.

I´ve talked with some friends and guys i know from our local weapon shops and schützenvereinen and in the end the pro side always comes down to this in germany. We fear them so let us wear weapons so they fear us(the self defense side, not talking about sports/hunting). This thought process is common with countrys that are having a nuclear weaponary.


Well basically my understanding of your position is that the possibility of someone shooting someone by mistake (nervous reaction) is enough justification to take away someones right to have a concealed weapon on them. It isn't a bad argument against guns by any means, but I feel that it falls short of justification when you weigh in all of the benefits of having a concealed carry.


That's the thing about hypotheticals. Everyone has their own take. Everyone has their own imagined scenario and counter scenario. Let's discuss documented facts instead of play theory crafting. More productive IMHO

I found this picture on the internet and its the foundation of my entire platform that I feel oh so strongly about though. I don't have to read the fine print though beacuse it agrees with me.

+ Show Spoiler [reallylargepicture] +
[image loading]


The irony comes with where I got the picture. Its a pretty crazy website all in all.


So your foundation is a collection of cherry picked data to make guns look amazing, which sources must be solid because they "agree" with you and yet I'm the ignorant one... okay.


Just ignore posts like those.

Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 10:03 Nachtwind wrote:
On April 30 2013 08:44 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On April 30 2013 08:32 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 07:46 Nachtwind wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:58 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:29 Nachtwind wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:28 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:21 Millitron wrote:
On April 30 2013 05:51 kmillz wrote:
[quote]

Well I was more referring to stopping someone who is being attacked (like somebody you care about most likely) than some stranger being robbed, I wouldn't suggest to anyone to shoot someone who is robbing a stranger.

Using a gun defensively doesn't necessarily mean shooting them. Simply drawing the gun is often enough to scare off common thugs.


Yeah, I've mentioned that before in this thread as well. People keep equating "concealed carry" to "shooting robbers and costing unnecessary deaths" and anything beyond that is just too much hypothetical for them to discuss.


The moment someone shot someone because out of nervous reaction this argument is done.


Just because you aren't willing to have a discussion about other possible outcomes doesn't mean the argument is "done".


I would really like to discuse this but i´m lacking the spirit of someone who got raised in the US. Germany has the most hard/difficult gun laws in the world and i´m biased against guns. So i´m not a good speaker when it´s about american gun laws and i lack objectivity.

I´m only saying that this situation you´re describing is a case where you´re equalize the usage of fear. And the moment where you used lethal force as an accident, instead of fear, the whole concept of equalizing is done.

I´ve talked with some friends and guys i know from our local weapon shops and schützenvereinen and in the end the pro side always comes down to this in germany. We fear them so let us wear weapons so they fear us(the self defense side, not talking about sports/hunting). This thought process is common with countrys that are having a nuclear weaponary.


Well basically my understanding of your position is that the possibility of someone shooting someone by mistake (nervous reaction) is enough justification to take away someones right to have a concealed weapon on them. It isn't a bad argument against guns by any means, but I feel that it falls short of justification when you weigh in all of the benefits of having a concealed carry.


That's the thing about hypotheticals. Everyone has their own take. Everyone has their own imagined scenario and counter scenario. Let's discuss documented facts instead of play theory crafting. More productive IMHO


Thought processes like these have brought us to the industrial philosophy that we´re only solving problems the moment we´re encountering them.


The last time the thread was shit up with "but what if this imagined scenario happened" led to a bunch of crap. I'd rather stick to discussing peer reviewed studies and the likes. Or if someone has an opinion informed by legitimate data rather than "this is what I feel like", that's great too.


Why would I go to the library to check out a book that allegedly proves that the 2.5 million figure is exaggerated when you won't even look at the survey I posted? Or if you have you willingly ignored their findings or just refuse to address them.

On April 30 2013 13:03 Myrddraal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 11:40 Sermokala wrote:
On April 30 2013 10:21 Myrddraal wrote:
On April 30 2013 09:08 Sermokala wrote:
On April 30 2013 08:44 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On April 30 2013 08:32 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 07:46 Nachtwind wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:58 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:29 Nachtwind wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:28 kmillz wrote:
[quote]

Yeah, I've mentioned that before in this thread as well. People keep equating "concealed carry" to "shooting robbers and costing unnecessary deaths" and anything beyond that is just too much hypothetical for them to discuss.


The moment someone shot someone because out of nervous reaction this argument is done.


Just because you aren't willing to have a discussion about other possible outcomes doesn't mean the argument is "done".


I would really like to discuse this but i´m lacking the spirit of someone who got raised in the US. Germany has the most hard/difficult gun laws in the world and i´m biased against guns. So i´m not a good speaker when it´s about american gun laws and i lack objectivity.

I´m only saying that this situation you´re describing is a case where you´re equalize the usage of fear. And the moment where you used lethal force as an accident, instead of fear, the whole concept of equalizing is done.

I´ve talked with some friends and guys i know from our local weapon shops and schützenvereinen and in the end the pro side always comes down to this in germany. We fear them so let us wear weapons so they fear us(the self defense side, not talking about sports/hunting). This thought process is common with countrys that are having a nuclear weaponary.


Well basically my understanding of your position is that the possibility of someone shooting someone by mistake (nervous reaction) is enough justification to take away someones right to have a concealed weapon on them. It isn't a bad argument against guns by any means, but I feel that it falls short of justification when you weigh in all of the benefits of having a concealed carry.


That's the thing about hypotheticals. Everyone has their own take. Everyone has their own imagined scenario and counter scenario. Let's discuss documented facts instead of play theory crafting. More productive IMHO

I found this picture on the internet and its the foundation of my entire platform that I feel oh so strongly about though. I don't have to read the fine print though beacuse it agrees with me.

+ Show Spoiler [reallylargepicture] +
[image loading]


The irony comes with where I got the picture. Its a pretty crazy website all in all.


So your foundation is a collection of cherry picked data to make guns look amazing, which sources must be solid because they "agree" with you and yet I'm the ignorant one... okay.

How on gods green earth do you come to this. Its dripping with sarcasm well beyond what should be considered to express sarcasm. I never said that you were the ignorant one, I'm the one thats anti gun control and get painted as ignorant all the time. Its literally the fullest extent of snark possible to express with words,


How on gods green earth indeed, I don't know what I was thinking, oh wait, remember when you posted this in response to me?

Show nested quote +
Just because your completely ignorant about the subject doesn't mean you get to just blame every mass shooting on people that don't agree with you. Your entire post is just hate filled stawmans with blind ignorance.

Your post is literally the opposite of Logical and ethical discussion in every possible way. You have so much hate for people you don't know and you don't understand because they don't follow your worldview exactly. You are a perfect embodiment of what you hate.


So yeah, you kinda said it twice in as many sentences.


The sarcasm still eluded you and nothing he said was even directed at you.
Millitron
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2611 Posts
April 30 2013 04:10 GMT
#9289
On April 30 2013 12:57 Nachtwind wrote:
So even if ~1/3 ( 11k from 30k ? ) of your victims are homicides what´s with the rest?

Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 12:39 Swagasaurus wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On April 30 2013 12:33 Nachtwind wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 12:12 Millitron wrote:
On April 30 2013 10:22 Nachtwind wrote:
I only heared that the US have 30k shoting victims every year.

Only 11,000 are homicides. Most of the rest a suicides. An extremely tiny fraction are accidents.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

Homicides also includes legitimate self-defense shootings too, not just murder.

Besides, alcohol kills 100k a year or so, why not restrict that more? Clearly its three times as dangerous.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_alcohol_related_deaths_occur_each_year


That is a third place war zone you´re planing and has nothing to do with the original discusion.

edit: also i like your fast edit about accident shootings, but np


No offense but I really can't understand your posts mate, your english is quite poor



I´m sorry you can´t understand me. It´s a german adage. I´ll work on my translations.

Like I said, its mostly suicides.

~19k firearm suicides according to the CDC.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/suicide.htm
Who called in the fleet?
kmillz
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1548 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-30 04:13:26
April 30 2013 04:12 GMT
#9290
On April 30 2013 13:10 Millitron wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 12:57 Nachtwind wrote:
So even if ~1/3 ( 11k from 30k ? ) of your victims are homicides what´s with the rest?

On April 30 2013 12:39 Swagasaurus wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On April 30 2013 12:33 Nachtwind wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 12:12 Millitron wrote:
On April 30 2013 10:22 Nachtwind wrote:
I only heared that the US have 30k shoting victims every year.

Only 11,000 are homicides. Most of the rest a suicides. An extremely tiny fraction are accidents.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

Homicides also includes legitimate self-defense shootings too, not just murder.

Besides, alcohol kills 100k a year or so, why not restrict that more? Clearly its three times as dangerous.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_alcohol_related_deaths_occur_each_year


That is a third place war zone you´re planing and has nothing to do with the original discusion.

edit: also i like your fast edit about accident shootings, but np


No offense but I really can't understand your posts mate, your english is quite poor



I´m sorry you can´t understand me. It´s a german adage. I´ll work on my translations.

Like I said, its mostly suicides.

~19k firearm suicides according to the CDC.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/suicide.htm


I think the gun death figures, without mention of suicides, should be nominated as the “most outrageous number mentioned in a policy discussion by an elected official.”

That one gets thrown around a LOT.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
April 30 2013 04:16 GMT
#9291
On April 30 2013 13:12 kmillz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 13:10 Millitron wrote:
On April 30 2013 12:57 Nachtwind wrote:
So even if ~1/3 ( 11k from 30k ? ) of your victims are homicides what´s with the rest?

On April 30 2013 12:39 Swagasaurus wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On April 30 2013 12:33 Nachtwind wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 12:12 Millitron wrote:
On April 30 2013 10:22 Nachtwind wrote:
I only heared that the US have 30k shoting victims every year.

Only 11,000 are homicides. Most of the rest a suicides. An extremely tiny fraction are accidents.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

Homicides also includes legitimate self-defense shootings too, not just murder.

Besides, alcohol kills 100k a year or so, why not restrict that more? Clearly its three times as dangerous.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_alcohol_related_deaths_occur_each_year


That is a third place war zone you´re planing and has nothing to do with the original discusion.

edit: also i like your fast edit about accident shootings, but np


No offense but I really can't understand your posts mate, your english is quite poor



I´m sorry you can´t understand me. It´s a german adage. I´ll work on my translations.

Like I said, its mostly suicides.

~19k firearm suicides according to the CDC.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/suicide.htm


I nominate the gun death figures without mentioning the suicides should be nominated as the “most outrageous number mentioned in a policy discussion by an elected official.”

That one gets thrown around a LOT.


The "women are paid 77 cents for every dollar paid to men" wage gap myth is probably more outrageous, considering that you aren't even allowed to question the statistics fail there without being accused of being a misogynist.
kmillz
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1548 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-30 04:25:13
April 30 2013 04:21 GMT
#9292
On April 30 2013 13:16 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 13:12 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 13:10 Millitron wrote:
On April 30 2013 12:57 Nachtwind wrote:
So even if ~1/3 ( 11k from 30k ? ) of your victims are homicides what´s with the rest?

On April 30 2013 12:39 Swagasaurus wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On April 30 2013 12:33 Nachtwind wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 12:12 Millitron wrote:
On April 30 2013 10:22 Nachtwind wrote:
I only heared that the US have 30k shoting victims every year.

Only 11,000 are homicides. Most of the rest a suicides. An extremely tiny fraction are accidents.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

Homicides also includes legitimate self-defense shootings too, not just murder.

Besides, alcohol kills 100k a year or so, why not restrict that more? Clearly its three times as dangerous.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_alcohol_related_deaths_occur_each_year


That is a third place war zone you´re planing and has nothing to do with the original discusion.

edit: also i like your fast edit about accident shootings, but np


No offense but I really can't understand your posts mate, your english is quite poor



I´m sorry you can´t understand me. It´s a german adage. I´ll work on my translations.

Like I said, its mostly suicides.

~19k firearm suicides according to the CDC.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/suicide.htm


I nominate the gun death figures without mentioning the suicides should be nominated as the “most outrageous number mentioned in a policy discussion by an elected official.”

That one gets thrown around a LOT.


The "women are paid 77 cents for every dollar paid to men" wage gap myth is probably more outrageous, considering that you aren't even allowed to question the statistics fail there without being accused of being a misogynist.


That is absurd, I should have specified in relation to guns. I was poking fun at this anyway:

"Much discussion about the protective benefits of guns has focused on the incidence of self-defense gun use. Proponents of such putative benefits often claim that 2.5 million Americans use guns in self-defense against criminal attackers each year. This estimate is not plausible and has been nominated as the “most outrageous number mentioned in a policy discussion by an elected official.” "


Anyone can "nominate" something as "outrageous" so it doesn't really mean anything unless you can back it up. I'm still waiting for him to say anything remotely resembling something that supports his claims (aside from go read this book).
FallDownMarigold
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3710 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-30 04:28:47
April 30 2013 04:24 GMT
#9293
On April 30 2013 12:12 Millitron wrote:
Homicides also includes legitimate self-defense shootings too, not just murder.

Correct. 1 in 36 firearm homicides are classified as justifiable homicides. ~2.5%

@above: What is with your obsessive focus on that remark quoted in the paper? It's irrelevant in light of the brunt of the point, why focus on it. If you genuinely want more explanation, read the source to which the paper refers. Why the fuck do I need to do this for you
Nachtwind
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany1130 Posts
April 30 2013 04:26 GMT
#9294
Nonetheless i think the US has the most victims of gun shot victims of all those democratic countrys around the world. You can whitewash it like you want.
invisible tetris level master
kmillz
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1548 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-30 04:34:34
April 30 2013 04:28 GMT
#9295
On April 30 2013 13:24 FallDownMarigold wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 12:12 Millitron wrote:
Homicides also includes legitimate self-defense shootings too, not just murder.

Correct. 1 in 36 firearm homicides are classified as justifiable homicides. ~2.5%

@above: It's a quote pulled from a paper. If you want more, read the source to which the paper refers. Why the fuck do I need to do this for you


I don't have to go to the library just as much as you don't have to read my survey. I'm just not going to take you seriously. If you actually read the book, why can't you just tell me what it says?

What is with your obsessive focus on that remark quoted in the paper? It's irrelevant in light of the brunt of the point, why focus on it.


Your whole point was that the 2.5 million DGU's was exaggerated to refute claims that defensive gun uses are a way to justify concealed carry or owning firearms. If that was not your point, then I don't know what it was. It seems like you are just making the discussion difficult for no reason and ignoring all of my counter-points to be annoying.
FallDownMarigold
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3710 Posts
April 30 2013 04:40 GMT
#9296
Too many assumptions. I'd rather not continue talking to you. In the future when I post relevant information I will not be responding to you.
FallDownMarigold
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3710 Posts
April 30 2013 04:52 GMT
#9297
On April 30 2013 12:12 Millitron wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 10:22 Nachtwind wrote:
I only heared that the US have 30k shoting victims every year.

Only 11,000 are homicides. Most of the rest a suicides. An extremely tiny fraction are accidents.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

Homicides also includes legitimate self-defense shootings too, not just murder.

Besides, alcohol kills 100k a year or so, why not restrict that more? Clearly its three times as dangerous.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_alcohol_related_deaths_occur_each_year


Heart disease kills more than alcohol, why didn't you pick that instead. Or cancer. Or diabetes. I don't think it's a strong argument to say "X kills more than Y, therefore we should not focus on addressing Y until X is solved"
kmillz
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1548 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-30 05:01:39
April 30 2013 04:57 GMT
#9298
On April 30 2013 13:40 FallDownMarigold wrote:
Too many assumptions. I'd rather not continue talking to you. In the future when I post relevant information I will not be responding to you.


Fine with me.

There are plenty of different surveys used to come to different conclusions on the number of defensive gun uses, and Hemenways method comes to the lowest number out of all of them:

Estimates over the number of defensive gun uses vary wildly, depending on the study's population, criteria, time-period studied, and other factors. Higher end estimates by Kleck and Getz cite between 1 to 2.5 million DGUs in the United States each year.[1]:64-65[2][3] Low end estimates by Hemenway cite approximately 55,000-80,000 such uses each year.[4][5] Middle estimates have estimated approximately 1 million DGU incidents in the United States.[1]:65[6] The basis for the studies, the National Self-Defense Survey and the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), vary in their methods, time-frames covered, and questions asked.[7] DGU questions were asked of all the NSDS sample.[3] Due to screening questions in the NCVS survey, only a minority of the NCVS sample were asked a DGU question.[8] Besides the NSDS and NCVS surveys, ten national and three state surveys summarized by Kleck and Gertz gave 764 thousand to 3.6 million DGU per year.[3] Hemenway contends the Kleck and Gertz study is unreliable and no conclusions can be drawn from it.[4] He argues that there are too many "false positives" in the surveys, and finds the NCVS figures more reliable, yielding estimates of around 100,000 defensive gun uses per year. Applying different adjustments, other social scientists suggest that between 250,000 and 370,000 incidences per year.[9]

Another survey including DGU questions was the National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms, NSPOF, conducted in 1994 by the Chiltons polling firm for the Police Foundation on a research grant from the National Institute of Justice. NSPOF projected 4.7 million DGU per year by 1.5 million individuals after weighting to eliminate false positives.[8] Discussion of over the number and nature of DGU and the implications to gun control policy came to a head in the late 1990s.[10][11]


Wikipedia ^

Information on Defensive Gun Uses and why the NCVS's (and Hemenway's) methods are flawed:



The huge difference between the NCVS estimates and the rest of the surveys likely arises because the NCVS only allows people to volunteer whether they have used a gun defensively once they answered that they were indeed “victimized” by a crime. Obviously, those who used a gun to successfully prevent an attack may not view themselves as having been victims. Others disagree with this and claim that the difference is due to the wording of questions regarding how the victims respond to
crime.


Conclusion
With the exception of the National Crime Victimization Survey, the surveys provide
surprisingly consistent evidence on the annual rate of defensive gun use. Yet, despite
general interest in the topics of guns and a fair number of surveys that examine defensive
gun use generally, surprising few surveys have attempted to break down who people use
their guns when they defend themselves from threats of violent crime. Obviously more
work can be done on this topic. The surveys and methods are available for others to
replicate further and examine why these finer breakdowns of survey results appear to
produce somewhat different results.


Source: What Surveys Can Help Us Understand About Guns? (This is the last source from the wikipedia page)
I'll go ahead and trust the consistent results until more surveys with improved methodology come out. Strange to me that you would focus on the one oddity survey and willingly ignore all of the other ones that produce greater results.
FallDownMarigold
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3710 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-30 05:19:06
April 30 2013 05:09 GMT
#9299
Forgot to respond to this. To be fair, you did ask me several times. I just finished reading that survey/paper:

On April 30 2013 08:59 kmillz wrote:

Show nested quote +

Gun control activists were unhappy with the National Self Defense Survey's results, which show that "Every 13 seconds an American gun owner uses a firearm in defense against a criminal."

In a 1994 TV news taping, Handgun Control, Inc.’s, spokesman, Sandy Cooney, called the National Self Defense Survey “obscene” and threw ad hominem slurs at its lead researcher, professor of criminology, Dr. Gary Kleck. Since Kleck is an impartial social scientist with no links to gun advocates or manufacturers — in fact he’s a liberal Democrat — it appears that Kleck’s only sin was doing research which produced results that challenged the gun-control agenda of Handgun Control, Inc., the "Million" Moms, and similar organizations.

So, to refute the results of the National Self Defense Survey, two pro-gun-control researchers, Philip Cook and Jens Ludwig, were given funding by the Clinton administration's Department of Justice to do their own survey of Defensive Gun Uses, to attempt to prove that the National Self Defense Survey's estimate was too high.

Unfortunately for advocates of gun control, the Cook-Ludwig survey produced results about the same as the National Self Defense Survey and -- in one remarkable paragraph -- suggested that their methodology was too conservative and that the Defensive Gun Use figure could even be doubled:

"Because respondents were asked to describe only their most recent defensive gun use, our comparisons are conservative, as they assume only one defensive gun use per defender. ...Inclusion of multiple DGUs reported by half of the 19 NSPOF respondents increases the estimate to 4.7 million DGUs[emphasis added]."


Survey



It appears you stopped reading when they introduced the work that produced the 2.5/4.7M figures. Why? In the very next section the authors explain that the 2.5/4.7M figures should be scrutinized. They proceed to describe -- wait for it -- the false positive and telescoping effects which are very well understood through the lens of epidemiology, and which affect this sort of data too.

+ Show Spoiler +
False positives.
Regardless of which
estimates one believes, only a small frac-
tion of adults have used guns defensively
in 1994. The only question is whether
that fraction is 1 in 1,800 (as one would
conclude from the NCVS) or 1 in 100
(as indicated by the NSPOF estimate
based on Kleck and Gertz's criteria).
Any estimate of the incidence of a rare
event based on screening the general
population is likely to have a positive
bias. The reason can best be explained
by use of an epidemiological frame-
work.
15
Screening tests are always sub-
ject to error, whether the "test" is a
medical examination for cancer or an
interview question for DGUs. The er-
rors are either "false negatives" or
"false positives." If the latter tend to
outnumber the former, the population
prevalence will be exaggerated.
The reason this sort of bias can be ex-
pected in the case of rare events boils
down to a matter of arithmetic. Sup-
pose the true prevalence is 1 in 1,000.
Then out of every 1,000 respondents,
only 1 can possibly supply a "false
negative," whereas any of the 999 may
provide a "false positive." If even 2 of
the 999 provide a false positive, the
result will be a positive bias—regard-
less of whether the one true positive
tells the truth.
Respondents might falsely provide a
positive response to the DGU question
for any of a number of reasons:
• They may want to impress the inter-
viewer by their heroism and hence ex-
aggerate a trivial event.
• They may be genuinely confused due
to substance abuse, mental illness, or
simply less-than-accurate memories.
• They may actually have used a gun
defensively within the last couple of
years but falsely report it as occurring
in the previous year—a phenomenon
known as "telescoping."
Of course, it is easy to imagine the
reasons why that rare respondent who
actually did use a gun defensively
within the time frame may have de-
cided not to report it to the inter-
viewer. But again, the arithmetic
dictates that the false positives will
likely predominate.
In line with the theory that many DGU
reports are exaggerated or falsified, we
note that in some of these reports, the
respondents' answers to the followup
items are not consistent with respon-
dents' reported DGUs. For example, of
the 19 NSPOF respondents meeting
the more restrictive Kleck and Gertz
DGU criteria (exhibit 7), 6 indicated
that the circumstance of the DGU was
rape, robbery, or attack—but then re-
sponded "no" to a subsequent ques-
tion: "Did the perpetrator threaten,
attack, or injure you?"
The key explanation for the difference
between the 108,000 NCVS estimate
for the annual number of DGUs and
the several million from the surveys
discussed earlier is that NCVS avoids
the false-positive problem by limiting
DGU questions to persons who first re-
ported that they were crime victims.
Most NCVS respondents never have a
chance to answer the DGU question,
falsely or otherwise.
Unclear benefits and costs from
gun uses.



What makes it an oddity survey? Is that your personal opinion or is there something criticized by other criminologists regarding methodology, etc?

The survey you provided earlier does not support that the 2.5M/4.7M number is correct. In fact it demands that one scrutinizes those claims:

The NSPOF-based estimate of millions of DGUs
each year greatly exaggerates the true
number, as do other estimates based
on similar surveys.
Much debated is
whether the widespread ownership of
firearms deters crime or makes it more
deadly—or perhaps both—but the
DGU estimates are not informative in
this regard.
For other purposes, the NSPOF is a reliable resource.


Frankly, you did not read the survey thoroughly before you provided it as a counter to my paper I linked you. Sorry
Myrddraal
Profile Joined December 2010
Australia937 Posts
April 30 2013 05:13 GMT
#9300
On April 30 2013 13:52 FallDownMarigold wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 12:12 Millitron wrote:
On April 30 2013 10:22 Nachtwind wrote:
I only heared that the US have 30k shoting victims every year.

Only 11,000 are homicides. Most of the rest a suicides. An extremely tiny fraction are accidents.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

Homicides also includes legitimate self-defense shootings too, not just murder.

Besides, alcohol kills 100k a year or so, why not restrict that more? Clearly its three times as dangerous.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_alcohol_related_deaths_occur_each_year


Heart disease kills more than alcohol, why didn't you pick that instead. Or cancer. Or diabetes. I don't think it's a strong argument to say "X kills more than Y, therefore we should not focus on addressing Y until X is solved"


I was thinking the same thing, unless there are stats to show that people under the influence of alcohol cause three times the number of deaths to other people.

If you want to drink yourself to death that your choice, and if the government doesn't like it they will just raise the taxes on alcohol so they can make more money off of you, or at least that is what they do in Australia.
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