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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action.
kmillz
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1548 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-30 01:17:50
April 29 2013 23:59 GMT
#9261
On April 30 2013 08:42 FallDownMarigold wrote:
http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable.pdf

Show nested quote +
The idea that firearms are frequently used in self-defense is the primary argument that the gun lobby and firearms industry use to expand the carrying of firearms into an ever-increasing number of public spaces and even to prevent the regulation of military-style semiautomatic assault weapons and high- capacity ammunition magazines. Yet this argument is hollow and the assertions false. When analyzing the most reliable data available, what is most striking is that in a nation of more than 300 million guns, how rarely firearms are used in self-defense.


Show nested quote +
According to the NCVS, looking at the total number of self-protective behaviors undertaken by victims of both attempted and completed violent crime for the five-year period 2007 through 2011, in only 0.8 percent of these instances had the intended victim in resistance to a criminal “threatened or attacked with a firearm.”11 As detailed in the chart on the next page, for the five-year period 2007 through 2011, the NCVS estimates that there were 29,618,300 victims of attempted or completed violent crime. During this same five-year period, only 235,700 of the self-protective behaviors involved a firearm. Of this number, it is not known what type of firearm was used or whether it was fired or not. The number may also include off-duty law enforcement officers who use their firearms in self-defense.

Show nested quote +

Pro-gun advocates—from individual gun owners to organizations like the National Rifle Association—frequently claim that guns are used up to 2.5 million times each year in self-defense in the United States.8 According to the 2004 book Private Guns, Public Health by Dr. David Hemenway, Professor of Health Policy at the Harvard School of Public Health and director of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center:

"Much discussion about the protective benefits of guns has focused on the incidence of self-defense gun use. Proponents of such putative benefits often claim that 2.5 million Americans use guns in self-defense against criminal attackers each year. This estimate is not plausible and has been nominated as the “most outrageous number mentioned in a policy discussion by an elected official.” "

In his book, Hemenway dissects the 2.5 million number from a variety of angles and, by extension, the NRA’s own non-lethal self- defense claims for firearms. He concludes, “It is clear that the claim of 2.5 million annual self-defense gun uses is a vast overestimate” and asks, “But what can account for it?” As he details in his book, the main culprit is the “telescoping and...false positive problem” that derives from the very limited number of respondents claiming a self-defense gun use, “a matter of misclassification that is well known to medical epidemiologists.”





Nominated by who? What is the importance of said nomination, other than somebody thinks it's outrageous.

Funny, other findings show that the 2.5 million figure was extremely conservative and that the real number could be up to 4.7 million a year.


Gun control activists were unhappy with the National Self Defense Survey's results, which show that "Every 13 seconds an American gun owner uses a firearm in defense against a criminal."

In a 1994 TV news taping, Handgun Control, Inc.’s, spokesman, Sandy Cooney, called the National Self Defense Survey “obscene” and threw ad hominem slurs at its lead researcher, professor of criminology, Dr. Gary Kleck. Since Kleck is an impartial social scientist with no links to gun advocates or manufacturers — in fact he’s a liberal Democrat — it appears that Kleck’s only sin was doing research which produced results that challenged the gun-control agenda of Handgun Control, Inc., the "Million" Moms, and similar organizations.

So, to refute the results of the National Self Defense Survey, two pro-gun-control researchers, Philip Cook and Jens Ludwig, were given funding by the Clinton administration's Department of Justice to do their own survey of Defensive Gun Uses, to attempt to prove that the National Self Defense Survey's estimate was too high.

Unfortunately for advocates of gun control, the Cook-Ludwig survey produced results about the same as the National Self Defense Survey and -- in one remarkable paragraph -- suggested that their methodology was too conservative and that the Defensive Gun Use figure could even be doubled:

"Because respondents were asked to describe only their most recent defensive gun use, our comparisons are conservative, as they assume only one defensive gun use per defender. ...Inclusion of multiple DGUs reported by half of the 19 NSPOF respondents increases the estimate to 4.7 million DGUs[emphasis added]."


Survey
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13984 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-30 00:10:40
April 30 2013 00:08 GMT
#9262
On April 30 2013 08:44 FallDownMarigold wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 08:32 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 07:46 Nachtwind wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:58 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:29 Nachtwind wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:28 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:21 Millitron wrote:
On April 30 2013 05:51 kmillz wrote:
On April 29 2013 18:36 Excludos wrote:
On April 29 2013 12:07 kmillz wrote:
[quote]

I'll agree with you that I don't think it is a strong defense. I'd say it would be more useful in circumstances where you can save someone else than yourself. Sorry, last hypothetical


I kinda agree with that. But simply carrying a gun can aggravate potential robbers to become violent whereas otherwise they might not have. And even if you managed to kill the assailant, you've still killed someone in a scenario whereas someone might not have died.

The scenarios where a gun would help is where the criminal is set on killing you no matter what, or, like you said, where you encounter someone else being robbed from a distance. But I'd say the negative sides of carrying outweighs that heavily. (the above + rather big chance of accidently killing yourself or someone you know from neglecting safety (because there is no requirement of training before buying a weapon)).

edit: So many typoes. Don't mock, I'm sick P.S pollen sucks.


Well I was more referring to stopping someone who is being attacked (like somebody you care about most likely) than some stranger being robbed, I wouldn't suggest to anyone to shoot someone who is robbing a stranger.

Using a gun defensively doesn't necessarily mean shooting them. Simply drawing the gun is often enough to scare off common thugs.


Yeah, I've mentioned that before in this thread as well. People keep equating "concealed carry" to "shooting robbers and costing unnecessary deaths" and anything beyond that is just too much hypothetical for them to discuss.


The moment someone shot someone because out of nervous reaction this argument is done.


Just because you aren't willing to have a discussion about other possible outcomes doesn't mean the argument is "done".


I would really like to discuse this but i´m lacking the spirit of someone who got raised in the US. Germany has the most hard/difficult gun laws in the world and i´m biased against guns. So i´m not a good speaker when it´s about american gun laws and i lack objectivity.

I´m only saying that this situation you´re describing is a case where you´re equalize the usage of fear. And the moment where you used lethal force as an accident, instead of fear, the whole concept of equalizing is done.

I´ve talked with some friends and guys i know from our local weapon shops and schützenvereinen and in the end the pro side always comes down to this in germany. We fear them so let us wear weapons so they fear us(the self defense side, not talking about sports/hunting). This thought process is common with countrys that are having a nuclear weaponary.


Well basically my understanding of your position is that the possibility of someone shooting someone by mistake (nervous reaction) is enough justification to take away someones right to have a concealed weapon on them. It isn't a bad argument against guns by any means, but I feel that it falls short of justification when you weigh in all of the benefits of having a concealed carry.


That's the thing about hypotheticals. Everyone has their own take. Everyone has their own imagined scenario and counter scenario. Let's discuss documented facts instead of play theory crafting. More productive IMHO

I found this picture on the internet and its the foundation of my entire platform that I feel oh so strongly about though. I don't have to read the fine print though beacuse it agrees with me.

+ Show Spoiler [reallylargepicture] +
[image loading]


The irony comes with where I got the picture. Its a pretty crazy website all in all.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
FallDownMarigold
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3710 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-30 04:54:17
April 30 2013 00:10 GMT
#9263
The paper describes the wild inaccuracies in those numbers though, so that was already addressed. The book referenced in the paper further breaks it down. It clearly states the more accepted among criminology/public health experts (not gun industry groups) numbers come from the source referenced in the paper.

Edit: Heh, now that I'm on a computer and not my phone, I've had a moment to poke around the 'source'. Is that an academic source? Seems a little iffy. Why should I trust it? Looks like a very poorly coded website without many credentials.

Edit again: Ah, thanks. You removed the thing you had linked as being a "source". Good

On April 30 2013 09:08 Sermokala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 08:44 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On April 30 2013 08:32 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 07:46 Nachtwind wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:58 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:29 Nachtwind wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:28 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:21 Millitron wrote:
On April 30 2013 05:51 kmillz wrote:
On April 29 2013 18:36 Excludos wrote:
[quote]

I kinda agree with that. But simply carrying a gun can aggravate potential robbers to become violent whereas otherwise they might not have. And even if you managed to kill the assailant, you've still killed someone in a scenario whereas someone might not have died.

The scenarios where a gun would help is where the criminal is set on killing you no matter what, or, like you said, where you encounter someone else being robbed from a distance. But I'd say the negative sides of carrying outweighs that heavily. (the above + rather big chance of accidently killing yourself or someone you know from neglecting safety (because there is no requirement of training before buying a weapon)).

edit: So many typoes. Don't mock, I'm sick P.S pollen sucks.


Well I was more referring to stopping someone who is being attacked (like somebody you care about most likely) than some stranger being robbed, I wouldn't suggest to anyone to shoot someone who is robbing a stranger.

Using a gun defensively doesn't necessarily mean shooting them. Simply drawing the gun is often enough to scare off common thugs.


Yeah, I've mentioned that before in this thread as well. People keep equating "concealed carry" to "shooting robbers and costing unnecessary deaths" and anything beyond that is just too much hypothetical for them to discuss.


The moment someone shot someone because out of nervous reaction this argument is done.


Just because you aren't willing to have a discussion about other possible outcomes doesn't mean the argument is "done".


I would really like to discuse this but i´m lacking the spirit of someone who got raised in the US. Germany has the most hard/difficult gun laws in the world and i´m biased against guns. So i´m not a good speaker when it´s about american gun laws and i lack objectivity.

I´m only saying that this situation you´re describing is a case where you´re equalize the usage of fear. And the moment where you used lethal force as an accident, instead of fear, the whole concept of equalizing is done.

I´ve talked with some friends and guys i know from our local weapon shops and schützenvereinen and in the end the pro side always comes down to this in germany. We fear them so let us wear weapons so they fear us(the self defense side, not talking about sports/hunting). This thought process is common with countrys that are having a nuclear weaponary.


Well basically my understanding of your position is that the possibility of someone shooting someone by mistake (nervous reaction) is enough justification to take away someones right to have a concealed weapon on them. It isn't a bad argument against guns by any means, but I feel that it falls short of justification when you weigh in all of the benefits of having a concealed carry.


That's the thing about hypotheticals. Everyone has their own take. Everyone has their own imagined scenario and counter scenario. Let's discuss documented facts instead of play theory crafting. More productive IMHO

I found this picture on the internet and its the foundation of my entire platform that I feel oh so strongly about though. I don't have to read the fine print though beacuse it agrees with me.

+ Show Spoiler [reallylargepicture] +
[image loading]


The irony comes with where I got the picture. Its a pretty crazy website all in all.

Neat.
kmillz
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1548 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-30 00:25:18
April 30 2013 00:21 GMT
#9264
On April 30 2013 09:10 FallDownMarigold wrote:
The paper describes the wild inaccuracies in those numbers though, so that was already addressed. The book referenced in the paper further breaks it down. It clearly states the more accepted among criminology/public health experts (not gun industry groups) numbers come from the source referenced in the paper.

Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 09:08 Sermokala wrote:
On April 30 2013 08:44 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On April 30 2013 08:32 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 07:46 Nachtwind wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:58 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:29 Nachtwind wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:28 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:21 Millitron wrote:
On April 30 2013 05:51 kmillz wrote:
[quote]

Well I was more referring to stopping someone who is being attacked (like somebody you care about most likely) than some stranger being robbed, I wouldn't suggest to anyone to shoot someone who is robbing a stranger.

Using a gun defensively doesn't necessarily mean shooting them. Simply drawing the gun is often enough to scare off common thugs.


Yeah, I've mentioned that before in this thread as well. People keep equating "concealed carry" to "shooting robbers and costing unnecessary deaths" and anything beyond that is just too much hypothetical for them to discuss.


The moment someone shot someone because out of nervous reaction this argument is done.


Just because you aren't willing to have a discussion about other possible outcomes doesn't mean the argument is "done".


I would really like to discuse this but i´m lacking the spirit of someone who got raised in the US. Germany has the most hard/difficult gun laws in the world and i´m biased against guns. So i´m not a good speaker when it´s about american gun laws and i lack objectivity.

I´m only saying that this situation you´re describing is a case where you´re equalize the usage of fear. And the moment where you used lethal force as an accident, instead of fear, the whole concept of equalizing is done.

I´ve talked with some friends and guys i know from our local weapon shops and schützenvereinen and in the end the pro side always comes down to this in germany. We fear them so let us wear weapons so they fear us(the self defense side, not talking about sports/hunting). This thought process is common with countrys that are having a nuclear weaponary.


Well basically my understanding of your position is that the possibility of someone shooting someone by mistake (nervous reaction) is enough justification to take away someones right to have a concealed weapon on them. It isn't a bad argument against guns by any means, but I feel that it falls short of justification when you weigh in all of the benefits of having a concealed carry.


That's the thing about hypotheticals. Everyone has their own take. Everyone has their own imagined scenario and counter scenario. Let's discuss documented facts instead of play theory crafting. More productive IMHO

I found this picture on the internet and its the foundation of my entire platform that I feel oh so strongly about though. I don't have to read the fine print though beacuse it agrees with me.

+ Show Spoiler [reallylargepicture] +
[image loading]


The irony comes with where I got the picture. Its a pretty crazy website all in all.

Neat.


I have yet to find where it "describes" the inaccuracies, it just says that the other numbers are wrong because the NCVS numbers are right.

The survey I posted addresses the NCVS numbers:

+ Show Spoiler +
Private citizens
sometimes use their guns to scare off
trespassers and fend off assaults. Such
defensive gun uses (DGUs) are some-
times invoked as a measure of the
public benefits of private gun owner-
ship. On the basis of National Crime
Victimization Survey (NCVS) data, one
would conclude that defensive uses
are rare indeed, about 108,000 per
year. But other surveys yield far higher
estimates of the number of DGUs.
Most notable has been a much publi-
cized estimate of 2.5 million DGUs,
based on data from a 1994 telephone
survey conducted by Florida State
University professors Gary Kleck and
Mark Gertz.
13
The 2.5 million figure
has been picked up by the press and
now appears regularly in newspaper
articles, letters to the editor, editorials,
and even Congressional Research Ser-
vice briefs for public policymakers.
The NSPOF survey is quite similar to
the Kleck and Gertz instrument and
provides a basis for replicating their
estimate. Each of the respondents in
the NSPOF was asked the question,
"Within the past 12 months, have you
yourself used a gun, even if it was not
fired, to protect yourself or someone
else, or for the protection of property at
home, work, or elsewhere?" Answers
in the affirmative were followed with
"How many different times did you use
a gun, even if it was not fired, to pro-
tect yourself or property in the past 12
months?" Negative answers to the first
DGU question were followed by "Have
you
ever
used a gun to defend yourself
or someone else?" (emphasis in origi-
nal). Each respondent who answered
yes to either of these DGU questions
was asked a sequence of 30 additional
questions concerning the most recent
defensive gun use in which the respond-
ent was involved, including the
respondent's actions with the gun, the
location and other circumstances of
the incident, and the respondent's re-
lationship to the perpetrator.
Forty-five respondents reported a de-
fensive gun use in 1994 against a per-
son (exhibit 7). Given the sampling
weights, these respondents constitute
1.6 percent of the sample and repre-
sent 3.1 million adults. Almost half of
these respondents reported multiple
DGUs during 1994, which provides
the basis for estimating the 1994 DGU
incidence at 23 million. This surpris-
ing figure is caused in part by a few
respondents reporting large numbers
of defensive gun uses during the year;
for example, one woman reported 52!


A somewhat more conservative NSPOF
estimate is shown in the column of ex-
hibit 7 that reflects the application of
the criteria used by Kleck and Gertz to
identify "genuine" defensive gun uses.
Respondents were excluded on the ba-
sis of the most recent DGU description
for any of the following reasons: the re-
spondent did not see a perpetrator; the
respondent could not state a specific
crime that was involved in the inci-
dent; or the respondent did not actu-
ally display the gun or mention it to
the perpetrator.
Applying those restrictions leaves 19
NSPOF respondents (0.8 percent of
the sample), representing 1.5 million
defensive users. This estimate is di-
rectly comparable to the well-known
estimate of Kleck and Gertz, shown in
the last column of exhibit 7. While the
NSPOF estimate is smaller, it is statis-
tically plausible that the difference is
due to sampling error. Inclusion of
multiple DGUs reported by half of the
19 NSPOF respondents increases the
estimate to 4.7 million DGUs.
Some troubling comparisons.
If
the DGU numbers are in the right
ballpark, millions of attempted as-
saults, thefts, and break-ins were
foiled by armed citizens during the 12-
month period. According to these re-
sults, guns are used far more often to
defend against crime than to perpe-
trate crime. (Firearms were used by
perpetrators in 1.07 million incidents
of violent crime in 1994, according to
NCVS data.)
Thus, it is of considerable interest and
importance to check the reasonable-
ness of the NSPOF estimates before
embracing them. Because respondents
were asked to describe only their most
recent defensive gun use, our compari-
sons are conservative, as they assume
only one defensive gun use per de-
fender. The results still suggest that
DGU estimates are far too high.
For example, in only a small fraction
of rape and robbery attempts do vic-
tims use guns in self-defense. It does
not make sense, then, that the NSPOF
estimate of the number of rapes in
which a woman defended herself with
a gun was more than the total number
of rapes estimated from NCVS (exhibit
8). For other crimes listed in exhibit 8,
the results are almost as absurd: the
NSPOF estimate of DGU robberies is
36 percent of all NCVS-estimated rob-
beries, while the NSPOF estimate of
DGU assaults is 19 percent of all ag-
gravated assaults. If those percentages
were close to accurate, crime would be
a risky business indeed!
NSPOF estimates also suggest that
130,000 criminals are wounded or
killed by civilian gun defenders. That
number also appears completely out of
line with other, more reliable statistics
on the number of gunshot cases.
14
The evidence of bias in the DGU esti-
mates is even stronger when one re-
calls that the DGU estimates are
calculated using only the most re-
cently reported DGU incidents of
NSPOF respondents; as noted, about
half of the respondents who reported a
DGU indicated two or more in the pre-
ceding year. Although there are no de-
tails on the circumstances of those
additional DGUs, presumably they are
similar to the most recent case and
provide evidence for additional mil-
lions of violent crimes foiled and per-
petrators shot.
FallDownMarigold
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3710 Posts
April 30 2013 00:25 GMT
#9265
On April 30 2013 09:21 kmillz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 09:10 FallDownMarigold wrote:
The paper describes the wild inaccuracies in those numbers though, so that was already addressed. The book referenced in the paper further breaks it down. It clearly states the more accepted among criminology/public health experts (not gun industry groups) numbers come from the source referenced in the paper.

On April 30 2013 09:08 Sermokala wrote:
On April 30 2013 08:44 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On April 30 2013 08:32 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 07:46 Nachtwind wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:58 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:29 Nachtwind wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:28 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:21 Millitron wrote:
[quote]
Using a gun defensively doesn't necessarily mean shooting them. Simply drawing the gun is often enough to scare off common thugs.


Yeah, I've mentioned that before in this thread as well. People keep equating "concealed carry" to "shooting robbers and costing unnecessary deaths" and anything beyond that is just too much hypothetical for them to discuss.


The moment someone shot someone because out of nervous reaction this argument is done.


Just because you aren't willing to have a discussion about other possible outcomes doesn't mean the argument is "done".


I would really like to discuse this but i´m lacking the spirit of someone who got raised in the US. Germany has the most hard/difficult gun laws in the world and i´m biased against guns. So i´m not a good speaker when it´s about american gun laws and i lack objectivity.

I´m only saying that this situation you´re describing is a case where you´re equalize the usage of fear. And the moment where you used lethal force as an accident, instead of fear, the whole concept of equalizing is done.

I´ve talked with some friends and guys i know from our local weapon shops and schützenvereinen and in the end the pro side always comes down to this in germany. We fear them so let us wear weapons so they fear us(the self defense side, not talking about sports/hunting). This thought process is common with countrys that are having a nuclear weaponary.


Well basically my understanding of your position is that the possibility of someone shooting someone by mistake (nervous reaction) is enough justification to take away someones right to have a concealed weapon on them. It isn't a bad argument against guns by any means, but I feel that it falls short of justification when you weigh in all of the benefits of having a concealed carry.


That's the thing about hypotheticals. Everyone has their own take. Everyone has their own imagined scenario and counter scenario. Let's discuss documented facts instead of play theory crafting. More productive IMHO

I found this picture on the internet and its the foundation of my entire platform that I feel oh so strongly about though. I don't have to read the fine print though beacuse it agrees with me.

+ Show Spoiler [reallylargepicture] +
[image loading]


The irony comes with where I got the picture. Its a pretty crazy website all in all.

Neat.


I have yet to find where it "describes" the inaccuracies, it just says that the other numbers are wrong because the NCVS numbers are right.


For a more detailed discussion, please see Hemenway, David, Private Guns, Public Health, (The University of Michigan Press, 2004), pp. 66-69 and pp. 238-243.
kmillz
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1548 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-30 00:32:36
April 30 2013 00:28 GMT
#9266
On April 30 2013 09:25 FallDownMarigold wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 09:21 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 09:10 FallDownMarigold wrote:
The paper describes the wild inaccuracies in those numbers though, so that was already addressed. The book referenced in the paper further breaks it down. It clearly states the more accepted among criminology/public health experts (not gun industry groups) numbers come from the source referenced in the paper.

On April 30 2013 09:08 Sermokala wrote:
On April 30 2013 08:44 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On April 30 2013 08:32 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 07:46 Nachtwind wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:58 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:29 Nachtwind wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:28 kmillz wrote:
[quote]

Yeah, I've mentioned that before in this thread as well. People keep equating "concealed carry" to "shooting robbers and costing unnecessary deaths" and anything beyond that is just too much hypothetical for them to discuss.


The moment someone shot someone because out of nervous reaction this argument is done.


Just because you aren't willing to have a discussion about other possible outcomes doesn't mean the argument is "done".


I would really like to discuse this but i´m lacking the spirit of someone who got raised in the US. Germany has the most hard/difficult gun laws in the world and i´m biased against guns. So i´m not a good speaker when it´s about american gun laws and i lack objectivity.

I´m only saying that this situation you´re describing is a case where you´re equalize the usage of fear. And the moment where you used lethal force as an accident, instead of fear, the whole concept of equalizing is done.

I´ve talked with some friends and guys i know from our local weapon shops and schützenvereinen and in the end the pro side always comes down to this in germany. We fear them so let us wear weapons so they fear us(the self defense side, not talking about sports/hunting). This thought process is common with countrys that are having a nuclear weaponary.


Well basically my understanding of your position is that the possibility of someone shooting someone by mistake (nervous reaction) is enough justification to take away someones right to have a concealed weapon on them. It isn't a bad argument against guns by any means, but I feel that it falls short of justification when you weigh in all of the benefits of having a concealed carry.


That's the thing about hypotheticals. Everyone has their own take. Everyone has their own imagined scenario and counter scenario. Let's discuss documented facts instead of play theory crafting. More productive IMHO

I found this picture on the internet and its the foundation of my entire platform that I feel oh so strongly about though. I don't have to read the fine print though beacuse it agrees with me.

+ Show Spoiler [reallylargepicture] +
[image loading]


The irony comes with where I got the picture. Its a pretty crazy website all in all.

Neat.


I have yet to find where it "describes" the inaccuracies, it just says that the other numbers are wrong because the NCVS numbers are right.


For a more detailed discussion, please see Hemenway, David, Private Guns, Public Health, (The University of Michigan Press, 2004), pp. 66-69 and pp. 238-243.


That isn't very useful, could you at least share the portion of the text that describes what exactly is inaccurate? I'm not going to buy the book.

Hemengway's findings are under the assumption that all DGU's are reported to the police... I find that unlikely.
FallDownMarigold
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3710 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-30 00:35:22
April 30 2013 00:33 GMT
#9267
Interesting. My opinion about Hemenway is different though. I'm not discussing things in here based off opinions anymore though, so I will end there.
kmillz
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1548 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-30 00:59:34
April 30 2013 00:38 GMT
#9268
On April 30 2013 09:33 FallDownMarigold wrote:
Interesting. My opinion about Hemenway is different though. I'm not discussing things in here based off opinions anymore though, so I will end there.


This isn't an opinion, this is about facts. His findings are based on the NCVS findings, correct? If so, then that means any DGU's that aren't reported to the police would not be documented there. Or am I wrong?

If you're best reference is a book, with nothing quoted from the book explaining why the 2.5 million figure is wrong, then I don't know what to tell you.

As he details in his book, the main culprit is the “telescoping and...false positive problem” that derives from the very limited number of respondents claiming a self-defense gun use, “a matter of misclassification that is well known to medical epidemiologists.”


Where is the evidence of telescoping and false positives? Doesn't mean anything without proof.
Nachtwind
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany1130 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-30 01:06:15
April 30 2013 01:03 GMT
#9269
On April 30 2013 08:44 FallDownMarigold wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 08:32 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 07:46 Nachtwind wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:58 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:29 Nachtwind wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:28 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:21 Millitron wrote:
On April 30 2013 05:51 kmillz wrote:
On April 29 2013 18:36 Excludos wrote:
On April 29 2013 12:07 kmillz wrote:
[quote]

I'll agree with you that I don't think it is a strong defense. I'd say it would be more useful in circumstances where you can save someone else than yourself. Sorry, last hypothetical


I kinda agree with that. But simply carrying a gun can aggravate potential robbers to become violent whereas otherwise they might not have. And even if you managed to kill the assailant, you've still killed someone in a scenario whereas someone might not have died.

The scenarios where a gun would help is where the criminal is set on killing you no matter what, or, like you said, where you encounter someone else being robbed from a distance. But I'd say the negative sides of carrying outweighs that heavily. (the above + rather big chance of accidently killing yourself or someone you know from neglecting safety (because there is no requirement of training before buying a weapon)).

edit: So many typoes. Don't mock, I'm sick P.S pollen sucks.


Well I was more referring to stopping someone who is being attacked (like somebody you care about most likely) than some stranger being robbed, I wouldn't suggest to anyone to shoot someone who is robbing a stranger.

Using a gun defensively doesn't necessarily mean shooting them. Simply drawing the gun is often enough to scare off common thugs.


Yeah, I've mentioned that before in this thread as well. People keep equating "concealed carry" to "shooting robbers and costing unnecessary deaths" and anything beyond that is just too much hypothetical for them to discuss.


The moment someone shot someone because out of nervous reaction this argument is done.


Just because you aren't willing to have a discussion about other possible outcomes doesn't mean the argument is "done".


I would really like to discuse this but i´m lacking the spirit of someone who got raised in the US. Germany has the most hard/difficult gun laws in the world and i´m biased against guns. So i´m not a good speaker when it´s about american gun laws and i lack objectivity.

I´m only saying that this situation you´re describing is a case where you´re equalize the usage of fear. And the moment where you used lethal force as an accident, instead of fear, the whole concept of equalizing is done.

I´ve talked with some friends and guys i know from our local weapon shops and schützenvereinen and in the end the pro side always comes down to this in germany. We fear them so let us wear weapons so they fear us(the self defense side, not talking about sports/hunting). This thought process is common with countrys that are having a nuclear weaponary.


Well basically my understanding of your position is that the possibility of someone shooting someone by mistake (nervous reaction) is enough justification to take away someones right to have a concealed weapon on them. It isn't a bad argument against guns by any means, but I feel that it falls short of justification when you weigh in all of the benefits of having a concealed carry.


That's the thing about hypotheticals. Everyone has their own take. Everyone has their own imagined scenario and counter scenario. Let's discuss documented facts instead of play theory crafting. More productive IMHO


Thought processes like these have brought us to the industrial philosophy that we´re only solving problems the moment we´re encountering them.
invisible tetris level master
kmillz
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1548 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-30 01:18:35
April 30 2013 01:09 GMT
#9270
On April 30 2013 10:03 Nachtwind wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 08:44 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On April 30 2013 08:32 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 07:46 Nachtwind wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:58 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:29 Nachtwind wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:28 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:21 Millitron wrote:
On April 30 2013 05:51 kmillz wrote:
On April 29 2013 18:36 Excludos wrote:
[quote]

I kinda agree with that. But simply carrying a gun can aggravate potential robbers to become violent whereas otherwise they might not have. And even if you managed to kill the assailant, you've still killed someone in a scenario whereas someone might not have died.

The scenarios where a gun would help is where the criminal is set on killing you no matter what, or, like you said, where you encounter someone else being robbed from a distance. But I'd say the negative sides of carrying outweighs that heavily. (the above + rather big chance of accidently killing yourself or someone you know from neglecting safety (because there is no requirement of training before buying a weapon)).

edit: So many typoes. Don't mock, I'm sick P.S pollen sucks.


Well I was more referring to stopping someone who is being attacked (like somebody you care about most likely) than some stranger being robbed, I wouldn't suggest to anyone to shoot someone who is robbing a stranger.

Using a gun defensively doesn't necessarily mean shooting them. Simply drawing the gun is often enough to scare off common thugs.


Yeah, I've mentioned that before in this thread as well. People keep equating "concealed carry" to "shooting robbers and costing unnecessary deaths" and anything beyond that is just too much hypothetical for them to discuss.


The moment someone shot someone because out of nervous reaction this argument is done.


Just because you aren't willing to have a discussion about other possible outcomes doesn't mean the argument is "done".


I would really like to discuse this but i´m lacking the spirit of someone who got raised in the US. Germany has the most hard/difficult gun laws in the world and i´m biased against guns. So i´m not a good speaker when it´s about american gun laws and i lack objectivity.

I´m only saying that this situation you´re describing is a case where you´re equalize the usage of fear. And the moment where you used lethal force as an accident, instead of fear, the whole concept of equalizing is done.

I´ve talked with some friends and guys i know from our local weapon shops and schützenvereinen and in the end the pro side always comes down to this in germany. We fear them so let us wear weapons so they fear us(the self defense side, not talking about sports/hunting). This thought process is common with countrys that are having a nuclear weaponary.


Well basically my understanding of your position is that the possibility of someone shooting someone by mistake (nervous reaction) is enough justification to take away someones right to have a concealed weapon on them. It isn't a bad argument against guns by any means, but I feel that it falls short of justification when you weigh in all of the benefits of having a concealed carry.


That's the thing about hypotheticals. Everyone has their own take. Everyone has their own imagined scenario and counter scenario. Let's discuss documented facts instead of play theory crafting. More productive IMHO


Thought procceses like these have brought us to the industrial philosophy that we´re only solving a problem the moment we´re encountering them.


I have no issue with discussing hypotheticals, I have no interest in even owning a gun but I still think it is important to protect our rights to own and carry them. So by following this type of "philosophy" I should not be discussing guns or any problem that I have not encountered.

Discussing facts is only as productive as the discussion those facts generate and posting a survey with findings on defensive gun uses is pretty useless if you (FDM) aren't even willing to discuss what those findings actually are. I actually looked into your source and you just judged mine based off of it's coding?

Look at the survey, at the very least, if you're not even willing to look at my source. It addresses the NCVS findings.


National Institute of Justice Survey
Myrddraal
Profile Joined December 2010
Australia937 Posts
April 30 2013 01:21 GMT
#9271
On April 30 2013 09:08 Sermokala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 08:44 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On April 30 2013 08:32 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 07:46 Nachtwind wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:58 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:29 Nachtwind wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:28 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:21 Millitron wrote:
On April 30 2013 05:51 kmillz wrote:
On April 29 2013 18:36 Excludos wrote:
[quote]

I kinda agree with that. But simply carrying a gun can aggravate potential robbers to become violent whereas otherwise they might not have. And even if you managed to kill the assailant, you've still killed someone in a scenario whereas someone might not have died.

The scenarios where a gun would help is where the criminal is set on killing you no matter what, or, like you said, where you encounter someone else being robbed from a distance. But I'd say the negative sides of carrying outweighs that heavily. (the above + rather big chance of accidently killing yourself or someone you know from neglecting safety (because there is no requirement of training before buying a weapon)).

edit: So many typoes. Don't mock, I'm sick P.S pollen sucks.


Well I was more referring to stopping someone who is being attacked (like somebody you care about most likely) than some stranger being robbed, I wouldn't suggest to anyone to shoot someone who is robbing a stranger.

Using a gun defensively doesn't necessarily mean shooting them. Simply drawing the gun is often enough to scare off common thugs.


Yeah, I've mentioned that before in this thread as well. People keep equating "concealed carry" to "shooting robbers and costing unnecessary deaths" and anything beyond that is just too much hypothetical for them to discuss.


The moment someone shot someone because out of nervous reaction this argument is done.


Just because you aren't willing to have a discussion about other possible outcomes doesn't mean the argument is "done".


I would really like to discuse this but i´m lacking the spirit of someone who got raised in the US. Germany has the most hard/difficult gun laws in the world and i´m biased against guns. So i´m not a good speaker when it´s about american gun laws and i lack objectivity.

I´m only saying that this situation you´re describing is a case where you´re equalize the usage of fear. And the moment where you used lethal force as an accident, instead of fear, the whole concept of equalizing is done.

I´ve talked with some friends and guys i know from our local weapon shops and schützenvereinen and in the end the pro side always comes down to this in germany. We fear them so let us wear weapons so they fear us(the self defense side, not talking about sports/hunting). This thought process is common with countrys that are having a nuclear weaponary.


Well basically my understanding of your position is that the possibility of someone shooting someone by mistake (nervous reaction) is enough justification to take away someones right to have a concealed weapon on them. It isn't a bad argument against guns by any means, but I feel that it falls short of justification when you weigh in all of the benefits of having a concealed carry.


That's the thing about hypotheticals. Everyone has their own take. Everyone has their own imagined scenario and counter scenario. Let's discuss documented facts instead of play theory crafting. More productive IMHO

I found this picture on the internet and its the foundation of my entire platform that I feel oh so strongly about though. I don't have to read the fine print though beacuse it agrees with me.

+ Show Spoiler [reallylargepicture] +
[image loading]


The irony comes with where I got the picture. Its a pretty crazy website all in all.


So your foundation is a collection of cherry picked data to make guns look amazing, which sources must be solid because they "agree" with you and yet I'm the ignorant one... okay.
[stranded]: http://www.indiedb.com/games/stranded
Nachtwind
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany1130 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-30 01:29:38
April 30 2013 01:22 GMT
#9272
I only heared that the US have 30k shoting victims every year. I don´t know any democratic country where this is the case. I don´t say it´s because of the laws of this country but one could may imply this. I don´t know how the guys are getting these numbers so i keep shut normaly.

But i think facts can be evaluated one or the other way. So even discusing "facts" can lead to false assumptions. I mean half of the US people would like so see more hard weapon rights. But when i would count the pro gun people in this thread i think i would come to a value like 80% pro gun.

edit : i´ll look at the link you provided
invisible tetris level master
FallDownMarigold
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3710 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-30 01:52:59
April 30 2013 01:45 GMT
#9273
On April 30 2013 09:38 kmillz wrote:

Where is the evidence of telescoping and false positives? Doesn't mean anything without proof.


In the book. No, it is not my job to provide the book. If you want to check it out at your local library, feel free. Info is provided above in one of my posts. If you don't believe it's there, K, cool, your loss.

On April 30 2013 10:21 Myrddraal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 09:08 Sermokala wrote:
On April 30 2013 08:44 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On April 30 2013 08:32 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 07:46 Nachtwind wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:58 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:29 Nachtwind wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:28 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:21 Millitron wrote:
On April 30 2013 05:51 kmillz wrote:
[quote]

Well I was more referring to stopping someone who is being attacked (like somebody you care about most likely) than some stranger being robbed, I wouldn't suggest to anyone to shoot someone who is robbing a stranger.

Using a gun defensively doesn't necessarily mean shooting them. Simply drawing the gun is often enough to scare off common thugs.


Yeah, I've mentioned that before in this thread as well. People keep equating "concealed carry" to "shooting robbers and costing unnecessary deaths" and anything beyond that is just too much hypothetical for them to discuss.


The moment someone shot someone because out of nervous reaction this argument is done.


Just because you aren't willing to have a discussion about other possible outcomes doesn't mean the argument is "done".


I would really like to discuse this but i´m lacking the spirit of someone who got raised in the US. Germany has the most hard/difficult gun laws in the world and i´m biased against guns. So i´m not a good speaker when it´s about american gun laws and i lack objectivity.

I´m only saying that this situation you´re describing is a case where you´re equalize the usage of fear. And the moment where you used lethal force as an accident, instead of fear, the whole concept of equalizing is done.

I´ve talked with some friends and guys i know from our local weapon shops and schützenvereinen and in the end the pro side always comes down to this in germany. We fear them so let us wear weapons so they fear us(the self defense side, not talking about sports/hunting). This thought process is common with countrys that are having a nuclear weaponary.


Well basically my understanding of your position is that the possibility of someone shooting someone by mistake (nervous reaction) is enough justification to take away someones right to have a concealed weapon on them. It isn't a bad argument against guns by any means, but I feel that it falls short of justification when you weigh in all of the benefits of having a concealed carry.


That's the thing about hypotheticals. Everyone has their own take. Everyone has their own imagined scenario and counter scenario. Let's discuss documented facts instead of play theory crafting. More productive IMHO

I found this picture on the internet and its the foundation of my entire platform that I feel oh so strongly about though. I don't have to read the fine print though beacuse it agrees with me.

+ Show Spoiler [reallylargepicture] +
[image loading]


The irony comes with where I got the picture. Its a pretty crazy website all in all.


So your foundation is a collection of cherry picked data to make guns look amazing, which sources must be solid because they "agree" with you and yet I'm the ignorant one... okay.


Just ignore posts like those.

On April 30 2013 10:03 Nachtwind wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 08:44 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On April 30 2013 08:32 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 07:46 Nachtwind wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:58 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:29 Nachtwind wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:28 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:21 Millitron wrote:
On April 30 2013 05:51 kmillz wrote:
On April 29 2013 18:36 Excludos wrote:
[quote]

I kinda agree with that. But simply carrying a gun can aggravate potential robbers to become violent whereas otherwise they might not have. And even if you managed to kill the assailant, you've still killed someone in a scenario whereas someone might not have died.

The scenarios where a gun would help is where the criminal is set on killing you no matter what, or, like you said, where you encounter someone else being robbed from a distance. But I'd say the negative sides of carrying outweighs that heavily. (the above + rather big chance of accidently killing yourself or someone you know from neglecting safety (because there is no requirement of training before buying a weapon)).

edit: So many typoes. Don't mock, I'm sick P.S pollen sucks.


Well I was more referring to stopping someone who is being attacked (like somebody you care about most likely) than some stranger being robbed, I wouldn't suggest to anyone to shoot someone who is robbing a stranger.

Using a gun defensively doesn't necessarily mean shooting them. Simply drawing the gun is often enough to scare off common thugs.


Yeah, I've mentioned that before in this thread as well. People keep equating "concealed carry" to "shooting robbers and costing unnecessary deaths" and anything beyond that is just too much hypothetical for them to discuss.


The moment someone shot someone because out of nervous reaction this argument is done.


Just because you aren't willing to have a discussion about other possible outcomes doesn't mean the argument is "done".


I would really like to discuse this but i´m lacking the spirit of someone who got raised in the US. Germany has the most hard/difficult gun laws in the world and i´m biased against guns. So i´m not a good speaker when it´s about american gun laws and i lack objectivity.

I´m only saying that this situation you´re describing is a case where you´re equalize the usage of fear. And the moment where you used lethal force as an accident, instead of fear, the whole concept of equalizing is done.

I´ve talked with some friends and guys i know from our local weapon shops and schützenvereinen and in the end the pro side always comes down to this in germany. We fear them so let us wear weapons so they fear us(the self defense side, not talking about sports/hunting). This thought process is common with countrys that are having a nuclear weaponary.


Well basically my understanding of your position is that the possibility of someone shooting someone by mistake (nervous reaction) is enough justification to take away someones right to have a concealed weapon on them. It isn't a bad argument against guns by any means, but I feel that it falls short of justification when you weigh in all of the benefits of having a concealed carry.


That's the thing about hypotheticals. Everyone has their own take. Everyone has their own imagined scenario and counter scenario. Let's discuss documented facts instead of play theory crafting. More productive IMHO


Thought processes like these have brought us to the industrial philosophy that we´re only solving problems the moment we´re encountering them.


The last time the thread was shit up with "but what if this imagined scenario happened" led to a bunch of crap. I'd rather stick to discussing peer reviewed studies and the likes. Or if someone has an opinion informed by legitimate data rather than "this is what I feel like", that's great too.
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24701 Posts
April 30 2013 01:55 GMT
#9274
On April 30 2013 10:22 Nachtwind wrote:
I mean half of the US people would like so see more hard weapon rights. But when i would count the pro gun people in this thread i think i would come to a value like 80% pro gun.
This result is not very well supported.

How can you tell who is 'pro gun' and who is 'against guns'? It isn't as black and white as you make it sound, and many people in this thread have moderate viewpoints or don't fully represent their view as they play devil's advocate with what someone else said.

The percentage of people in this thread who have a view (even if you check to see which people are labeled as in the USA) in one direction or the other does not have any reason to be a representative sample of the USA population. This is an esports rts/moba/etc website, which has a much narrower demographic than say, facebook (and even fb wouldn't be a great sample but it would be somewhat more representative at least).

Also saying 'half of the US people would like to see more hard weapon rights' is difficult to defend but I won't go there.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Stratos_speAr
Profile Joined May 2009
United States6959 Posts
April 30 2013 01:58 GMT
#9275
On April 30 2013 06:27 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 06:21 Millitron wrote:
On April 30 2013 05:51 kmillz wrote:
On April 29 2013 18:36 Excludos wrote:
On April 29 2013 12:07 kmillz wrote:
On April 29 2013 11:49 FallDownMarigold wrote:
I'd rather not get bogged down in any more hypothetical scenarios.


I'll agree with you that I don't think it is a strong defense. I'd say it would be more useful in circumstances where you can save someone else than yourself. Sorry, last hypothetical


I kinda agree with that. But simply carrying a gun can aggravate potential robbers to become violent whereas otherwise they might not have. And even if you managed to kill the assailant, you've still killed someone in a scenario whereas someone might not have died.

The scenarios where a gun would help is where the criminal is set on killing you no matter what, or, like you said, where you encounter someone else being robbed from a distance. But I'd say the negative sides of carrying outweighs that heavily. (the above + rather big chance of accidently killing yourself or someone you know from neglecting safety (because there is no requirement of training before buying a weapon)).

edit: So many typoes. Don't mock, I'm sick P.S pollen sucks.


Well I was more referring to stopping someone who is being attacked (like somebody you care about most likely) than some stranger being robbed, I wouldn't suggest to anyone to shoot someone who is robbing a stranger.

Using a gun defensively doesn't necessarily mean shooting them. Simply drawing the gun is often enough to scare off common thugs.

Even harder to determine is the effect of the knowledge of a strong likelihood that the potential victim(s) will be carrying guns. If you're a criminal who is looking to rob someone or a rapist looking to rape someone, would you go to the place where 90+% of the people walking around will be carrying concealed handguns, or will you go the place where 10% will be? It would be hard to determine using studies (the over reliance on "studies" is alarming in it's own right), but common sense dictates that an armed populace is less likely to be victimized than an unarmed one.


Social scientific studies are useful for the very reason that common sense is often wrong in areas like sociology, psychology, and economics.
A sound mind in a sound body, is a short, but full description of a happy state in this World: he that has these two, has little more to wish for; and he that wants either of them, will be little the better for anything else.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-30 02:29:30
April 30 2013 02:06 GMT
#9276
On April 30 2013 10:55 micronesia wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 10:22 Nachtwind wrote:
I mean half of the US people would like so see more hard weapon rights. But when i would count the pro gun people in this thread i think i would come to a value like 80% pro gun.
This result is not very well supported.

How can you tell who is 'pro gun' and who is 'against guns'? It isn't as black and white as you make it sound, and many people in this thread have moderate viewpoints or don't fully represent their view as they play devil's advocate with what someone else said.

The percentage of people in this thread who have a view (even if you check to see which people are labeled as in the USA) in one direction or the other does not have any reason to be a representative sample of the USA population. This is an esports rts/moba/etc website, which has a much narrower demographic than say, facebook (and even fb wouldn't be a great sample but it would be somewhat more representative at least).

Also saying 'half of the US people would like to see more hard weapon rights' is difficult to defend but I won't go there.


Not to mention that even if the population of TL was a comprehensive sample of the US, the people who feel compelled to post in this thread would not be.

After all, those who support gun rights are likely to be gunowners who are outspoken about it whereas many who would vote against them do not have a strong vested interest in expressing their disapproval.

It's much like how tobacco users are likely to be outspoken proponents of tobacco whereas fewer non-users will adamantly oppose tobacco despite generally being against it.
FallDownMarigold
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3710 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-30 02:23:17
April 30 2013 02:12 GMT
#9277
On April 30 2013 11:06 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 10:55 micronesia wrote:
On April 30 2013 10:22 Nachtwind wrote:
I mean half of the US people would like so see more hard weapon rights. But when i would count the pro gun people in this thread i think i would come to a value like 80% pro gun.
This result is not very well supported.

How can you tell who is 'pro gun' and who is 'against guns'? It isn't as black and white as you make it sound, and many people in this thread have moderate viewpoints or don't fully represent their view as they play devil's advocate with what someone else said.

The percentage of people in this thread who have a view (even if you check to see which people are labeled as in the USA) in one direction or the other does not have any reason to be a representative sample of the USA population. This is an esports rts/moba/etc website, which has a much narrower demographic than say, facebook (and even fb wouldn't be a great sample but it would be somewhat more representative at least).

Also saying 'half of the US people would like to see more hard weapon rights' is difficult to defend but I won't go there.


Not to mention that even if the population of TL was a comprehensive sample of the US, the people who feel compelled to post in this thread would not be.

After all, those who support gun rights are likely to be gunowners who are outspoken about it whereas many who would vote against them do not have a strong vested interest in expressing their disapproval.

It's much like how tobacco users are likely to be outspoken proponents of tobacco whereas fewer non-users will adamantly oppose tobacco but despite generally being against it.


Yes. Here is a look into the way Americans lean with regard to certain components of gun control that is probably far more accurate than tallying posts in this TL thread:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/07/us-usa-guns-poll-idUSBRE9160LW20130207
By a margin of 92 percent to 7 percent, voters supported background checks, the Quinnipiac University telephone poll showed. In households with a gun, 91 percent were in favor, while 8 percent were opposed, Quinnipiac said.


A majority of those surveyed supported stricter national gun control laws, Quinnipiac said. Fifty-six percent were for a ban on the sale of assault weapons, and the same percentage supported a ban on the sale of high-capacity magazines, defined as those holding more than 10 rounds.


The poll surveyed 1,772 registered voters from January 30 to February 4 and had a margin of error of plus or minus 2.3 percentage points, Quinnipiac said.

Nachtwind
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany1130 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-30 02:29:25
April 30 2013 02:27 GMT
#9278
On April 30 2013 10:55 micronesia wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 10:22 Nachtwind wrote:
I mean half of the US people would like so see more hard weapon rights. But when i would count the pro gun people in this thread i think i would come to a value like 80% pro gun.
This result is not very well supported.

How can you tell who is 'pro gun' and who is 'against guns'? It isn't as black and white as you make it sound, and many people in this thread have moderate viewpoints or don't fully represent their view as they play devil's advocate with what someone else said.

The percentage of people in this thread who have a view (even if you check to see which people are labeled as in the USA) in one direction or the other does not have any reason to be a representative sample of the USA population. This is an esports rts/moba/etc website, which has a much narrower demographic than say, facebook (and even fb wouldn't be a great sample but it would be somewhat more representative at least).

Also saying 'half of the US people would like to see more hard weapon rights' is difficult to defend but I won't go there.



Well whatever i won´t battle with anyone from US and a person of power from this forum.
invisible tetris level master
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13984 Posts
April 30 2013 02:40 GMT
#9279
On April 30 2013 10:21 Myrddraal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 09:08 Sermokala wrote:
On April 30 2013 08:44 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On April 30 2013 08:32 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 07:46 Nachtwind wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:58 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:29 Nachtwind wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:28 kmillz wrote:
On April 30 2013 06:21 Millitron wrote:
On April 30 2013 05:51 kmillz wrote:
[quote]

Well I was more referring to stopping someone who is being attacked (like somebody you care about most likely) than some stranger being robbed, I wouldn't suggest to anyone to shoot someone who is robbing a stranger.

Using a gun defensively doesn't necessarily mean shooting them. Simply drawing the gun is often enough to scare off common thugs.


Yeah, I've mentioned that before in this thread as well. People keep equating "concealed carry" to "shooting robbers and costing unnecessary deaths" and anything beyond that is just too much hypothetical for them to discuss.


The moment someone shot someone because out of nervous reaction this argument is done.


Just because you aren't willing to have a discussion about other possible outcomes doesn't mean the argument is "done".


I would really like to discuse this but i´m lacking the spirit of someone who got raised in the US. Germany has the most hard/difficult gun laws in the world and i´m biased against guns. So i´m not a good speaker when it´s about american gun laws and i lack objectivity.

I´m only saying that this situation you´re describing is a case where you´re equalize the usage of fear. And the moment where you used lethal force as an accident, instead of fear, the whole concept of equalizing is done.

I´ve talked with some friends and guys i know from our local weapon shops and schützenvereinen and in the end the pro side always comes down to this in germany. We fear them so let us wear weapons so they fear us(the self defense side, not talking about sports/hunting). This thought process is common with countrys that are having a nuclear weaponary.


Well basically my understanding of your position is that the possibility of someone shooting someone by mistake (nervous reaction) is enough justification to take away someones right to have a concealed weapon on them. It isn't a bad argument against guns by any means, but I feel that it falls short of justification when you weigh in all of the benefits of having a concealed carry.


That's the thing about hypotheticals. Everyone has their own take. Everyone has their own imagined scenario and counter scenario. Let's discuss documented facts instead of play theory crafting. More productive IMHO

I found this picture on the internet and its the foundation of my entire platform that I feel oh so strongly about though. I don't have to read the fine print though beacuse it agrees with me.

+ Show Spoiler [reallylargepicture] +
[image loading]


The irony comes with where I got the picture. Its a pretty crazy website all in all.


So your foundation is a collection of cherry picked data to make guns look amazing, which sources must be solid because they "agree" with you and yet I'm the ignorant one... okay.

How on gods green earth do you come to this. Its dripping with sarcasm well beyond what should be considered to express sarcasm. I never said that you were the ignorant one, I'm the one thats anti gun control and get painted as ignorant all the time. Its literally the fullest extent of snark possible to express with words,
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24701 Posts
April 30 2013 02:51 GMT
#9280
On April 30 2013 11:27 Nachtwind wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 10:55 micronesia wrote:
On April 30 2013 10:22 Nachtwind wrote:
I mean half of the US people would like so see more hard weapon rights. But when i would count the pro gun people in this thread i think i would come to a value like 80% pro gun.
This result is not very well supported.

How can you tell who is 'pro gun' and who is 'against guns'? It isn't as black and white as you make it sound, and many people in this thread have moderate viewpoints or don't fully represent their view as they play devil's advocate with what someone else said.

The percentage of people in this thread who have a view (even if you check to see which people are labeled as in the USA) in one direction or the other does not have any reason to be a representative sample of the USA population. This is an esports rts/moba/etc website, which has a much narrower demographic than say, facebook (and even fb wouldn't be a great sample but it would be somewhat more representative at least).

Also saying 'half of the US people would like to see more hard weapon rights' is difficult to defend but I won't go there.

Well whatever i won´t battle with anyone from US and a person of power from this forum.

You don't have to worry about battling a 'person of power' since I wouldn't use mod powers when having a discussion about a controversial topic (it should be this way for all staff). On the other hand, I can't imagine why you feel the need to 'battle' me unless you feel like what I said was somehow wrong.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
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