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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On February 20 2012 20:09 ClanRH.TV wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 20:00 Fen2 wrote:On February 20 2012 19:45 ClanRH.TV wrote:On February 20 2012 18:46 eNbee wrote:
It's a hard mindset to shake though to be fair. It seems to be spoon-fed to them from birth (correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the idea I get).
The fact of the matter is Europe has stricter gun laws than the United States, and FAR lower murder rates, a quick google search can tell you that.
Apart from gun control I'd like to see an argument made that Western European countries are less "free" than the United States.
If I play devils' advocate here I suppose you can argue that Western Europe is more socialist than the United States, thus more taxed, I guess you can call that less free.
Then again less fortunate people over here are far less chained to debt if they get health issues or hit any kind of bad luck, so you could call that having more "freedom" (I really hate the way this word is thrown around by Americans in office btw).
On Topic :
My stance as far as gun control goes is: owning a gun should be like getting a drivers' license, albeit a more difficult to accrue version. You take classes and (strenuous) tests, if you pass those you get your license and you can own a handgun/hunting rifle. I'm against the general population having easy access to weaponry that can extinguish someone else's life with a single finger movement...
They can act as a deterrent, but we'd all be better off if no one had them and everyone was civil towards each other(fat chance). The united states has a homicide rate that is ~4.5 people per 100,000. European countries have a homicide rate of ~3.5. Switzerland (lax gun laws) has a lower homicide rate than many european countries with strict gun laws. European countries have a violent crimes rate of more than double the United States though. A QUICK google search tells me that you are more than 2x more likely to be injured in european countries than in the united states. I know these facts will just be ignored and overlooked even if I post the sources so if you truly believe me or truly disbelieve search International Homicide Rates and Gun Laws vs Homicide and Violent Crime Rates in google. Just wanted to state these few facts before you spew your biased, misinformed view of things. Thanks. By the way, guns will always be part of the United States just as murder will always be part of the world. I never understand the point of these threads. They really are nothing more than Europe criticizing the United States for everything we do like they have nothing better to do. They act just as ignorant as many Americans do. It's quite funny to have to hear it everyday on the forums that you've gradually developed a dislike of everything they say, regardless of whether it correct or not. They'll be ignored because you're comparing all of Europe with America which is completely unfair. Europe is a continent, not a country. It contains many different countries, some developed and some not so developed. This is a discussion based on developed countries. So congrats, you might have a better homicide rate than a 3rd world country, but guess what? Thats nothing to be proud of, thats expected. The Wiki page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rateIndicates that West and Central Europe has a 1.2 per 100,000 homicide rate, which is FAR lower than North America's 4.8. EDIT: also please post a source So essentially what your saying is that there are many other factors that contribute to the homicide rate? Yet you turn 180 degrees around and say just because two countries are "developed" its perfectly reasonable to compare them right? Its stuff exactly like this I'm talking about.
Of course there are many factors that contribute to homicide rate, I never said there wasn't. However It is commonplace when comparing countries to differentiate between developing and developed countries because the developing countries have factors that massively affect the results which developed countries do not have. USA is not a developing country, and therefore should be only compared against developed countries.
You were the one who made a generalisation about Europe, treating it as though it was a country, rather than a group of countries, completely skewing the results. If you are compare two countries, such as the person above, you'll see that there are no developed countries in Europe which have anywhere near as high rates of homicide and violent crimes
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On February 20 2012 20:24 Acrofales wrote:
I think Michael Moore actually made an excellent point when he showed that gun ownership does not have to be a problem. All you need to do is look at Canada or Switzerland. However, guns + poverty + fear-mongering on TV results in one helluva mess. Especially when people aren't educated in how to take care of, and use, those guns.
this!
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This debate will never die. Like i said in the other thread, owning and especially carrying a gun is maybe in the United States a big thing, but in the most countries it's simply unnecessary. I think, that no one should be allowed to carry guns, rifles and any other kind of firearm besides active law enforcer and military employees. Owning should only be possible, if you store your weapon in a official gun range and keep it there. But this isn't about pro and contra weapons, it's about the US.
And maybe that's the problem. Many named arguments and try to compare other countries against each other, but with this mindset, we will debate forever. The United States are different. My own experience is, that a lot of people encounter you aggressive, sometimes even hostile - "You are a stranger, get of my property!" - That isn't just some line of a movie, it happend to me a few times while touring through the States. I just want to ask for directions. If never seen them before and maybe thats the problem. If you watch american news, it's all about murderers, drugs, disasters and crimes (along with sports and politics). I don't think that US citizen are aggressive or hostile. It's more a culture thing. (yeah i said it) With this history, it's not easy to let go of weapons. They are an important piece of american history and without guns, this country wouldn't be the same. And i don't think, the answer to this is "A better one".
Even if you ban all weapons tomorrow, nothing would change. There are so many registred and illegal weapons in the United States, that wouldn't make a difference. The first step on the road to a weapon free USA has to be a change of mind. It has to beginn with the people. Norbert Elias Zivilisationstheorie (The Civilizing Process) covered it pretty good. The English entry at wikipedia isn't that good, but the book (The Civilizing Process Vol. 1) basically says, that civilizied behaviour has to be learned. It's nothing, you get magically at birth.
Another thing against guns. I think, shooting with a gun at someone is to easy. There are fewer barriers. Killing with a knife is bloody and messy, strangulate someone to death is very personal. That's far more disturbing than standing 5 meters away and pull a trigger.
I was robbed once and tried to defend myself. The attacker had a knife and after a little skirmish, it was in his chest. One of his lungs collapsed and he fainted. It was by far the most disgusting thing in my life.I can sometimes still feel, how i pushed his knife inside him. I don't know what could had happen, if i had a gun with me. I was with my girl that time, i feared for our life and it pushed my barriers away. And i know how to shoot, i'm not to bad at the gun range.
PS: English isn't my natural language, so i'm sorry if i didn't always hit the right word. I hope you can understand it well enough.
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Zurich15313 Posts
On February 20 2012 19:45 ClanRH.TV wrote:
The united states has a homicide rate that is ~4.5 people per 100,000. European countries have a homicide rate of ~3.5. Switzerland (lax gun laws) has a lower homicide rate than many european countries with strict gun laws. European countries have a violent crimes rate of more than double the United States though. A QUICK google search tells me that you are more than 2x more likely to be injured in european countries than in the united states. I know these facts will just be ignored and overlooked even if I post the sources so if you truly believe me or truly disbelieve search International Homicide Rates and Gun Laws vs Homicide and Violent Crime Rates in google.
Just wanted to state these few facts before you spew your biased, misinformed view of things. Thanks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
North America: 4.7
West and Central Europe: 1.2
What exactly are you trying to prove?
Edit: Whoops already been posted. Nevermind.
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I wanted to refrain myself from asking that question but I feel like there are people out there that have a completely different picture of the subject so the answers might be interesting. Please do not feel offended or find it sarcastic.
There have been a few shootings in universities (actually more than what I thought) and so what about allowing every student to carry a weapon at school ? It would enable everyone to defend against such a threat, wouldn't it ?
Is it that different from having a weapon at home ? Are people more reliable at home than at school ? Obviously you don't want children to have weapons but, correct me if I am mistaken, most students are old enough to get a gun anyway, aren't they ?
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On February 20 2012 03:18 fabiano wrote:
If people want to kill, they will find a gun anyway, banning guns would make little to no difference at all.
This is amazing.
If people want to <insert something illegal>, they will find a way anyway, banning <that illegal thing> would make little to no difference at all.
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On February 20 2012 18:34 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 02:53 Hertzy wrote:The other thread is going off topic with people debating about the general right to own and carry guns. This has been an ongoing debate in the United States since their founding. In Finland, where public carry permissions are effectively nonexistent, the school shootings of the past decade have been fueling the debate on gun ownership in general. I personally believe that, in a perfect world, the law enforcement alone would be capable of wielding all the violence needed to keep society safe. However, this is an imperfect world. Criminals have gotten access to guns, and that is a genie that isn't going back into the bottle. The law enforcement has finite resources and can't always be there in time. Therefore I believe a person should have the right to arm themself for the purpose of self defence. Further, I do not think that the actions of what is essentially the global bottom ten participants in a class of hobbies should be taken as a reason to limit said hobbies. How would legalizing guns stop school shootings? Do you remember Columbine? Unless you are seriously advocating teachers to stand in front of the class with their gun at the ready for the one in a million chance they might save the day, but are instead teaching fear and violence to the children. Guns don't kill people, people kill people is an obviously true adage. However, it needs an amendment: guns don't kill people, it just makes it more likely that people will kill people. The number of people who die in Europe due to stupid is relatively low: criminals may use guns, but they use them mainly against other criminals with guns. In the end, if you're a gas station owner and you get held up, it doesn't really matter to you whether that's with a gun or a knife. If, however, you have a gun under the counter you might want to get heroic, generally ending with you getting shot in the process. In many cases the robber is caught on video and easily apprehended by the police anyway. Relaxing gun laws is a great way of getting innocent people shot. The only people I feel should be allowed to own a gun are those who have had a hefty amount of training to be allowed to use a gun, which is generally how gun laws in western europe work in the first place. It's not impossible to own a gun in Holland, but you have to pass an exam showing that you know how to take care of the gun and can aim and shoot what you intend to shoot. Guns are a dangerous item and you should not be allowed to own one without knowing how to use it properly (the same goes for cars, btw. I don't think anybody has proposed that you can own a car without having a driver's license? )
I never said that legalizing guns would stop gun violence, nor did I advocate teachers openly carrying firearms in front of children. What I claim is that school shooters represent the least responsible 0.005% of Finnish firearm enthusiasts.
I updated the OP with links to a few statistics that dispute your assertion that guns make people more likely to kill people.
Why do you feel that someone would need a "hefty" amount of training to use a gun? An hour or two at the range is plenty to teach someone to hit a human-sized target in anything like a self-defence situation, and the situations where using a gun on a human being is warranted are very few and very intuitive. Even the proper storage of guns and ammunition are fairly straightforward.
With a car, on the other hand, simply controlling the car is almost as complicated as Starcraft II macro, and on top of that you have a load of rules and their exceptions, not to mention a dozen little things you need to know and pay attention to.
Furthermore, where did I say that gun ownership should be utterly permit-free?
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Personally, I dont see any reason to allow people to own guns. No reason at all.
Only farmers, hunters and other people that has to have a weapon should be able to get one. But only after lots of background checks and other tests.
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On February 20 2012 03:18 cydial wrote:
Guns are fine, are people really that naive to think guns are the problem here?
Yes, they live in a myopic world of theory and irrationality, and don't know anyone who actually carries.
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On February 20 2012 23:36 0neder wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 03:18 cydial wrote:
Guns are fine, are people really that naive to think guns are the problem here? Yes, they live in a myopic world of theory and irrationality, and don't know anyone who actually carries.
If you would live at a place were guns are not allowed you would think the same but in the other direction.
If you dont own a gun you cant shoot anyone, its quite simple.
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On February 20 2012 09:04 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
For me personally I live a happier life knowing my neighbor does not own a gun.
I'm in absolute agreement with Nazgul. I also think that in countries that have strict gun laws (i.e. no guns for personal use) the few exempts for shooting sports clubs and similar venues should be handled a lot stricter. Guns ought to be kept safely at the club premises only, and not be taken home for kids to find and play with.
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http://www.marinij.com/novato/ci_19991503
What a timely news article. This guy was shot and survived thanks to having a pistol nearby. This intruder entered his house wth the intent to take whatever he wanted by what ever means necessary. Also disproves the myth that guns are only to kill. The badguy was shot 5 times and somehow managed to survive.
Too bad the good guy didn't have one of those hollywood guns that fires bullets that knock a guy through a wall, and even a 5 shot revolver that never needs to reload.
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Good God guys. Read from page 15 or so onward. Many of the issues you're bringing up have already been addressed.
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On February 20 2012 23:44 weekendracer wrote:http://www.marinij.com/novato/ci_19991503What a timely news article. This guy was shot and survived thanks to having a pistol nearby. This intruder entered his house wth the intent to take whatever he wanted by what ever means necessary. Also disproves the myth that guns are only to kill. The badguy was shot 5 times and somehow managed to survive. Too bad the good guy didn't have one of those hollywood guns that fires bullets that knock a guy through a wall, and even a 5 shot revolver that never needs to reload.
In norway burglarys never end up as tragically as this, because neither the thief or the victim has a gun.
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On February 20 2012 23:57 Kimaker wrote:
Good God guys. Read from page 15 or so onward. Many of the issues you're bringing up have already been addressed.
As is the nature with every forum.
IMHO, as long as the violence associated with guns (some people buy guns for protection or just out of interest or for hunting) doesn't exceed the general American standards (Note that my Canadian standards for gun violence would obviously be different since not as many people here have guns), the rest of the world shouldn't be too concerned (but what's the breaking point, when is it appropriate to say, "Okay, we've had some good fun, but get rid of 'em?").
Question for the Americans out there, does the fact that people have guns make you feel less safe?
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On February 21 2012 00:16 IntoTheheart wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 23:57 Kimaker wrote:
Good God guys. Read from page 15 or so onward. Many of the issues you're bringing up have already been addressed. As is the nature with every forum. IMHO, as long as the violence associated with guns (some people buy guns for protection or just out of interest or for hunting) doesn't exceed the general American standards (Note that my Canadian standards for gun violence would obviously be different since not as many people here have guns), the rest of the world shouldn't be too concerned (but what's the breaking point, when is it appropriate to say, "Okay, we've had some good fun, but get rid of 'em?"). Question for the Americans out there, does the fact that people have guns make you feel less safe?
It honestly doesn't cross my mind regularly. When I do consider it, I'm not particularly bothered by it.
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On February 21 2012 00:18 Kimaker wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 00:16 IntoTheheart wrote:On February 20 2012 23:57 Kimaker wrote:
Good God guys. Read from page 15 or so onward. Many of the issues you're bringing up have already been addressed. As is the nature with every forum. IMHO, as long as the violence associated with guns (some people buy guns for protection or just out of interest or for hunting) doesn't exceed the general American standards (Note that my Canadian standards for gun violence would obviously be different since not as many people here have guns), the rest of the world shouldn't be too concerned (but what's the breaking point, when is it appropriate to say, "Okay, we've had some good fun, but get rid of 'em?"). Question for the Americans out there, does the fact that people have guns make you feel less safe? It honestly doesn't cross my mind regularly. When I do consider it, I'm not particularly bothered by it.
If you the taxpayer doesn't care, then I the foreigner shouldn't worry about it. Or at least that's my take on it.
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On February 21 2012 00:09 Ostby wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 23:44 weekendracer wrote:http://www.marinij.com/novato/ci_19991503What a timely news article. This guy was shot and survived thanks to having a pistol nearby. This intruder entered his house wth the intent to take whatever he wanted by what ever means necessary. Also disproves the myth that guns are only to kill. The badguy was shot 5 times and somehow managed to survive. Too bad the good guy didn't have one of those hollywood guns that fires bullets that knock a guy through a wall, and even a 5 shot revolver that never needs to reload. In norway burglarys never end up as tragically as this, because neither the thief or the victim has a gun.
Nobody owns a gun? Really.....??? Then you get into the issue of who has the bigger knife and if you want someone who knows how to wield a knife in your house and you're forced to use a spoon to defend him off becuase your steak knifes are in the dishwasher. As long as guns and or better weapons exist people will use them to cause harm if everyone owns a knife and knows how to use it however the criminal is forced to think is this worth it? I don't like guns though, so I have faith in the human and know that if someone does want to take my stuff it is better to just let them have it rather than get in a fight over a TV or a computer.
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On February 21 2012 00:19 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 00:09 Ostby wrote:On February 20 2012 23:44 weekendracer wrote:http://www.marinij.com/novato/ci_19991503What a timely news article. This guy was shot and survived thanks to having a pistol nearby. This intruder entered his house wth the intent to take whatever he wanted by what ever means necessary. Also disproves the myth that guns are only to kill. The badguy was shot 5 times and somehow managed to survive. Too bad the good guy didn't have one of those hollywood guns that fires bullets that knock a guy through a wall, and even a 5 shot revolver that never needs to reload. In norway burglarys never end up as tragically as this, because neither the thief or the victim has a gun. Nobody owns a gun? Really.....??? Then you get into the issue of who has the bigger knife and if you want someone who knows how to wield a knife in your house and you're forced to use a spoon to defend him off becuase your steak knifes are in the dishwasher. As long as guns and or better weapons exist people will use them to cause harm if everyone owns a knife and knows how to use it however the criminal is forced to think is this worth it? I don't like guns though, so I have faith in the human and know that if someone does want to take my stuff it is better to just let them have it rather than get in a fight over a TV or a computer.
1. you dont need a weapon to steal stuff - actually stealing without a weapon bears lesser risks than with one.
2. "dangerous" knives are banned, too, in a lot of countries.
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The FBI estimates that there are over 200 million privately-owned firearms in the US.
How about you guys discuss something relevant. If you think guns should be banned in the US, how do you get rid of 200 millions guns?
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EPT
