EPTIf you're seeing this topic then another mass shooting hap…
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Moxi
708 Posts
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gulati
United States2241 Posts
Carrying of weapons should not be a right, it should be a privilege. I say that because I think that there are far too many incompetent people in this world who are not fit to carry a weapon. The basis to measure people on who should carry vs. who should not... not even I know that answer yet. I'm a firm believer in the Second Amendment -- "Peace Sign". I'm just not a firm believer in human intelligence and morality. | ||
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Crushinator
Netherlands2138 Posts
On February 21 2012 00:36 gulati wrote: Ownership should exist just in the sense that I can own a pack of cigarettes if I want. Carrying of weapons should not be a right, it should be a privilege. I say that because I think that there are far too many incompetent people in this world who are not fit to carry a weapon. The basis to measure people on who should carry vs. who should not... not even I know that answer yet. I'm a firm believer in the Second Amendment -- "Peace Sign". I'm just not a firm believer in human intelligence and morality. My god... Not even you... | ||
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silynxer
Germany439 Posts
On February 21 2012 00:18 Kimaker wrote: It honestly doesn't cross my mind regularly. When I do consider it, I'm not particularly bothered by it. But there are some people who consider it all the time, namely police officers. Now if you look at how the police treats suspects in the US compared to pretty much any developed country this becomes a relevant factor. I would cite numbers about people shot by the police but apparently they don't have a nation wide statistic on this in the US (wtf, seriously) but I suspect the numbers would be through the roof in comparison. Just look at any of the random videos about officers shooting someone and how "he could have had a gun" always comes up. Even if nobody dies, being treated as if I am about to shoot someone in a police encounter or having to fear for my life at any wrong movement seems like a hefty price to me. In general this could lead to an alienation between people and police officers, inducing all sorts of problems. In critical situations it appears that weapon ownership numbers are not as important but whether people believe you could be carrying one, which is obviously influenced by the numbers of people carrying one but also by the general narrative (media, friends etc.). Here seems to be a key difference to Switzerland. Though I have no idea what you could do about it in the US, other countries should think about it before loosening their gun control policies. [EDIT]: For context, in Germany 119 people were killed by the police in the period of 1994-2005 whereas in New York alone 207 people were killed in the same period. http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/268431-2010-nypd-firearms-discharge-report.html http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffengebrauch_der_Polizei_in_Deutschland | ||
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TheDraken
United States640 Posts
On February 20 2012 09:04 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: For me personally I live a happier life knowing my neighbor does not own a gun. i think you just get used to it after a while. almost all my neighbors own guns and i couldn't give less of a shit. | ||
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KookyMonster
United States311 Posts
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Kimaker
United States2131 Posts
On February 21 2012 00:54 silynxer wrote: But there are some people who consider it all the time, namely police officers. Now if you look at how the police treats suspects in the US compared to pretty much any developed country this becomes a relevant factor. I would cite numbers about people shot by the police but apparently they don't have a nation wide statistic on this in the US (wtf, seriously) but I suspect the numbers would be through the roof in comparison. Just look at any of the random videos about officers shooting someone and how "he could have had a gun" always comes up. Even if nobody dies, being treated as if I am about to shoot someone in a police encounter or having to fear for my life at any wrong movement seems like a hefty price to me. In general this could lead to an alienation between people and police officers, inducing all sorts of problems. In critical situations it appears that weapon ownership numbers are not as important but whether people believe you could be carrying one, which is obviously influenced by the numbers of people carrying one but also by the general narrative (media, friends etc.). Here seems to be a key difference to Switzerland. Though I have no idea what you could do about it in the US, other countries should think about it before loosening their gun control policies. As far as police are concerned, it comes with the job in the United States. Don't like it? Don't be a cop. As for the rest of what you're saying I'll direct you to roughly pages 15 to 28 of the thread. It's been addressed. | ||
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silynxer
Germany439 Posts
I'm not concerned for the cops, I don't want to treated as shit/shot by cops because they think I might have a gun. [EDIT]: I'm kind of baffled how you could misunderstand my post so gravely. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18208 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + In a zombie apocalypse. ![[image loading]](http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad114/hondobad/Episode-1-Rick-Horse-Hordes-760.jpg) Other than that I am happier living in the knowledge that my neighbour doesn't have a gun, and, if my house gets burgled, the perp won't have a gun either (and will probably run away, because I'll be armed with a mobile phone and dialing 112). | ||
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Twiggs
United States600 Posts
On February 20 2012 03:10 Macabre wrote: People killed people just fine before guns. And they will continue to do so for the rest of time, with or without them. Hahaha you're so right. People always say to me that America should ban guns that way the criminals didn't get them etc. But what If they came to my house with a bat/knife? I'll miss my 12 gauge then... It just doesn't make much sense to ban guns people. They are a tool. For hunting, recreation, killing and defense. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. You can take the guns from the murderers, but you cant take the murder out of the murderers. | ||
micronesia
United States24753 Posts
On February 20 2012 23:31 Ostby wrote: Personally, I dont see any reason to allow people to own guns. No reason at all. Only farmers, hunters and other people that has to have a weapon should be able to get one. But only after lots of background checks and other tests. I'm not really trying to take a stance, overall, in this thread but I want to point out another exception that gets glossed over a lot (I've brought this up in previous threads, I believe). My dad has gone target shooting at a local range, weekly, for decades. Usually he does pistol shooting at paper targets, which are part of competitions and practice. It is one of his hobbies. He makes is own ammunition, maintains the guns, etc. Despite there being dozens of guns in my household, we have never had a problem where my sister or I (when we were young) were in danger. By your logic (which lots of people share with you) there is no reason for my dad to be allowed to own a gun. He doesn't need to hunt for food, and he isn't a farmer who can make a case for needed to protect his crops from pests. Personally I feel my dad should be allowed to continue doing what he's doing. He is more skilled/trained with a gun and knowledgeable on gun safety than the average police officer at this point (he actually competed with officers recently in a charity event and defeated most of them in target shooting). He obeys all existing gun laws, and goes through a million hoops as it is to maintain his license, transport his guns to/from the range, etc. Do you still feel we should only allow licensed hunters (and licensed farmers, I guess) to be allowed to own their own guns? In a country where guns are plentiful regardless of laws, shouldn't we try to find a way to enable people like my dad (and the majority of gun owners, to be honest) to continue to own their guns while fighting gun crimes at the same time? | ||
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ZeDo
United States28 Posts
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zatic
Zurich15361 Posts
On February 21 2012 01:38 micronesia wrote: Do you still feel we should only allow licensed hunters (and licensed farmers, I guess) to be allowed to own their own guns? In a country where guns are plentiful regardless of laws, shouldn't we try to find a way to enable people like my dad (and the majority of gun owners, to be honest) to continue to own their guns while fighting gun crimes at the same time? Well what you are describing is basically the European model, where getting a gun is not all that complicated, if you are a hunter or you compete in target shooting. You just can't have one for self defense purposes. | ||
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SACtheXchng
168 Posts
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Warillions
United States215 Posts
On February 20 2012 03:05 Babyfactory wrote: Gun control only serves to make it harder (or impossible) for law abiding citizens to have and use them for either home defense, the illusion of safety, or whatever reason they feel they want to have said weapon. If someone wants to obtain a gun to kill someone, gun control isn't going to put up any barrier to prevent this to happen as they are most likely already obtaining this weapon illegally. That being said, gun ownership only poses one problem in my mind and that is vigilantism or the "Make My Day" law. Unfortunately, a large contingent of gun owners aren't qualified to be using them and should they deem it necessary to use them to protect others, they only serve to endanger or further exacerbate a dire situation. I'm all for relaxed gun control laws. I find it obscene that any government can remove the ability of a populus to defend itself from terrorist and tyrants alike. I do feel that there needs to be some sort of mandatory / provided class(es) or training that completely familiarizes the individual with the use of the weapon, proper storage, understanding of munition the weapon uses, maintenance of the weapon and situations in which a concealed carry permit would be merited. good points and i agree. im american and its my right to have a gun. i also have my license to carry. humans are not born with the instinct to properly handle a weapon. its learned. dangerous world we live in. i remember a sign in a dudes yard saying " ---> neighbor doesnt believe in the right to own firearms. so in respect for his belief, i promise not to protect his home with firearms" good ehh? | ||
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EternaLLegacy
United States410 Posts
On February 21 2012 01:44 zatic wrote: Well what you are describing is basically the European model, where getting a gun is not all that complicated, if you are a hunter or you compete in target shooting. You just can't have one for self defense purposes. Because entertainment is more important than protecting your life. Right? | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18208 Posts
On February 20 2012 23:00 Hertzy wrote: I never said that legalizing guns would stop gun violence, nor did I advocate teachers openly carrying firearms in front of children. What I claim is that school shooters represent the least responsible 0.005% of Finnish firearm enthusiasts. I updated the OP with links to a few statistics that dispute your assertion that guns make people more likely to kill people. Why do you feel that someone would need a "hefty" amount of training to use a gun? An hour or two at the range is plenty to teach someone to hit a human-sized target in anything like a self-defence situation, and the situations where using a gun on a human being is warranted are very few and very intuitive. Even the proper storage of guns and ammunition are fairly straightforward. With a car, on the other hand, simply controlling the car is almost as complicated as Starcraft II macro, and on top of that you have a load of rules and their exceptions, not to mention a dozen little things you need to know and pay attention to. Furthermore, where did I say that gun ownership should be utterly permit-free? Proper care for a gun is far from easy (while gun technology nowadays is pretty good, you definitely don't want to leave it lying around armed, meaning you need to, at the very least, learn to arm your gun while under stress), nor is properly learning to shoot. The problem is not so much hitting your target (although I personally am a terrible shot, even I can hit something human-sized at the maximum indoor distance), it is deciding whether to shoot or not when under extreme duress (because you woke up in the middle of the night and there is something moving in your living room). As I said in a previous post, I have been in 2 violent situations in my life and in neither of those would I have been any better off if carrying a gun. The problem with most of the statistics linked are that they, firstly focus largely on the US and, secondly, are extremely biased statistics when performing comparisons. I would link better statistics, but there are some linked in this thread already and I can't be bothered to dredge them up. Wikipedia is actually not a bad source for this. I would start with "gun-related accidents", "gun-related homicides" and even "gun-related suicides". I do feel the studies you link correlating gun-related problems with poverty, as I believe I have ALSO stated a number of times. I don't feel gun ownership per se is a problem, but proper education is a necessity. Btw, as for statistics, I read somewhere that people who own a gun are more likely to get shot than people who don't own a gun. I will try to google it for you. EDIT: found it http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17922-carrying-a-gun-increases-risk-of-getting-shot-and-killed.html | ||
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zatic
Zurich15361 Posts
On February 21 2012 01:51 EternaLLegacy wrote: Because entertainment is more important than protecting your life. Right? Obviously this is not a serious question. But still, speaking for my own country: Yes, there is absolutely no need to own a gun for self defense. At the same time, looking at hunters and competition shooters it seems unreasonable to ban private gun ownership completely. Of course this equation might be different in other parts of the world, but this is how it is in most parts of Europe, and why you will find most Europeans on the pro gun control side. | ||
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Warillions
United States215 Posts
On February 21 2012 01:57 Acrofales wrote: Proper care for a gun is far from easy (while gun technology nowadays is pretty good, you definitely don't want to leave it lying around armed, meaning you need to, at the very least, learn to arm your gun while under stress), nor is properly learning to shoot. The problem is not so much hitting your target (although I personally am a terrible shot, even I can hit something human-sized at the maximum indoor distance), it is deciding whether to shoot or not when under extreme duress (because you woke up in the middle of the night and there is something moving in your living room). As I said in a previous post, I have been in 2 violent situations in my life and in neither of those would I have been any better off if carrying a gun. The problem with most of the statistics linked are that they, firstly focus largely on the US and, secondly, are extremely biased statistics when performing comparisons. I would link better statistics, but there are some linked in this thread already and I can't be bothered to dredge them up. Wikipedia is actually not a bad source for this. I would start with "gun-related accidents", "gun-related homicides" and even "gun-related suicides". I do feel the studies you link correlating gun-related problems with poverty, as I believe I have ALSO stated a number of times. I don't feel gun ownership per se is a problem, but proper education is a necessity. Btw, as for statistics, I read somewhere that people who own a gun are more likely to get shot than people who don't own a gun. I will try to google it for you. EDIT: found it http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17922-carrying-a-gun-increases-risk-of-getting-shot-and-killed.html thats like saying more ppl have car wrecks that drive cars then ppl who dont. lets all drive horse and buggy. what about break ins that happen to houses that arnt defended vs houses that are? ppl who cook with fire get burned more than ppl that cook with microwaves. lets not allow ppl to cook with gas stoves.... u get the point i learned this in my carry permit class. lets say your in a bank thats gettin robbed. u got a gun on ur hip on display cause ur cool with your new license. the crook sees the gun and deals with it during the crime. but the innocent person without a gun is told to stay down and all is safe. ok the problem here isnt the gun. its the person carrying the guns fault. he should hide this weapon. this fear keeps criminals from being "too brave" because they dont know who has/does not have a gun. u can carry a gun and negate the cons of a situation that comes from having the gun. if you dont feel comfortable with a gun, dont carry one. thats like saying your scared of using ghosts in TvP. so u dont use em. but learning them and using them in a smart manner can be worth it | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
In France, owning a Gun for something else than hunting or work make you a freak in a lot of people eyes. | ||
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