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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On February 20 2012 18:39 Marti wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 18:14 TanTzoR wrote:On February 20 2012 17:56 Voros wrote:Personally I believe no. The only reason I can see somebody needing a gun is if they live in some place with dangerous animals, such as bears and shit like that, just for self-defense. Other than that, I see no reason why a person needs a gun. The only reason I can see that someone might need freedom of speech is if they live in an autocratic society, such as the one experienced within the former Soviet Union. Other than that, I see no reason why anyone should have freedom of expression--it makes me very uncomfortable. Thankfully, and in spite of the best efforts of many of its politicians, the United States tends to be at the vanguard of civil liberties. It's no surprise that citizens of nations that lack something as basic as freedom of expression or freedom from unwarranted searches would also be suspicious of freedom to own arms. Radical freedom is a frightening thing. There is a line where individual freedom must be stopped so that every other citizens can benefit from its freedom. Example: You insult someone. You have the right to insult someone, liberty of speech man. But I think, most importantly, the other guy has the right to not be insulted. Same for guns, in Europe we have the right to not have guns surrounding us. And don't start speaking about America being the heaven of freedom while the rest of the world is chained. We are doing good for ourselves, and don't worry we fully benefit from our freedom. And we don't lack any compared to the US. Actually we sadly don't have Fox news like you :s And in France we have the right to benefit from a decent health care system. We can't get rid of guns in one day, but that's where we should tend. You can legally carry guns, good for you. But I think it's not the way out. I would much prefer having higher crime rate but the means and rights to defend myself than the hope that the police will get there in time.
Holy shit did you just actually type that out? That's fucking absurd.
I have nothing to add to it, just thought I'd highlight it.
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On February 20 2012 02:53 Hertzy wrote:The other thread is going off topic with people debating about the general right to own and carry guns. This has been an ongoing debate in the United States since their founding. In Finland, where public carry permissions are effectively nonexistent, the school shootings of the past decade have been fueling the debate on gun ownership in general. I personally believe that, in a perfect world, the law enforcement alone would be capable of wielding all the violence needed to keep society safe. However, this is an imperfect world. Criminals have gotten access to guns, and that is a genie that isn't going back into the bottle. The law enforcement has finite resources and can't always be there in time. Therefore I believe a person should have the right to arm themself for the purpose of self defence. Further, I do not think that the actions of what is essentially the global bottom ten participants in a class of hobbies should be taken as a reason to limit said hobbies.
Yes all American citizens should be allowed to own a firearm. Taking away firearms would not have prevented the school shootings, I don't care what you ignorant people say... its not gonna stop shit like that at all. Criminals will find a way to get a hold of a firearm legal or illegally.
Finland may have very little in the way of legal firearms for the average Joe, they also only have a total population of something like 5 million. The USA for instance has over 300 million citizens(2012 Census info) these differences alone void any comparisons.
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im already scared of dumb people with cars - dont really need (way more)dumb people with guns.
edit :
if only batmans parents would have a gun with them!
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On February 20 2012 18:53 eNbee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 18:39 Marti wrote:On February 20 2012 18:14 TanTzoR wrote:On February 20 2012 17:56 Voros wrote:Personally I believe no. The only reason I can see somebody needing a gun is if they live in some place with dangerous animals, such as bears and shit like that, just for self-defense. Other than that, I see no reason why a person needs a gun. The only reason I can see that someone might need freedom of speech is if they live in an autocratic society, such as the one experienced within the former Soviet Union. Other than that, I see no reason why anyone should have freedom of expression--it makes me very uncomfortable. Thankfully, and in spite of the best efforts of many of its politicians, the United States tends to be at the vanguard of civil liberties. It's no surprise that citizens of nations that lack something as basic as freedom of expression or freedom from unwarranted searches would also be suspicious of freedom to own arms. Radical freedom is a frightening thing. There is a line where individual freedom must be stopped so that every other citizens can benefit from its freedom. Example: You insult someone. You have the right to insult someone, liberty of speech man. But I think, most importantly, the other guy has the right to not be insulted. Same for guns, in Europe we have the right to not have guns surrounding us. And don't start speaking about America being the heaven of freedom while the rest of the world is chained. We are doing good for ourselves, and don't worry we fully benefit from our freedom. And we don't lack any compared to the US. Actually we sadly don't have Fox news like you :s And in France we have the right to benefit from a decent health care system. We can't get rid of guns in one day, but that's where we should tend. You can legally carry guns, good for you. But I think it's not the way out. I would much prefer having higher crime rate but the means and rights to defend myself than the hope that the police will get there in time. Holy shit did you just actually type that out? That's fucking absurd. I have nothing to add to it, just thought I'd highlight it.
Especially since it's most likely that he will have to defend against an armed "maniac".
The only advantage of guns vs. close combat is that you can rather defend yourself vs a majority with guns.
That still means that it'll be easier for them to hit you, but you have a chance to injure some.
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On February 20 2012 18:55 Nazarid wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 02:53 Hertzy wrote:The other thread is going off topic with people debating about the general right to own and carry guns. This has been an ongoing debate in the United States since their founding. In Finland, where public carry permissions are effectively nonexistent, the school shootings of the past decade have been fueling the debate on gun ownership in general. I personally believe that, in a perfect world, the law enforcement alone would be capable of wielding all the violence needed to keep society safe. However, this is an imperfect world. Criminals have gotten access to guns, and that is a genie that isn't going back into the bottle. The law enforcement has finite resources and can't always be there in time. Therefore I believe a person should have the right to arm themself for the purpose of self defence. Further, I do not think that the actions of what is essentially the global bottom ten participants in a class of hobbies should be taken as a reason to limit said hobbies. Yes all American citizens should be allowed to own a firearm. Taking away firearms would not have prevented the school shootings, I don't care what you ignorant people say... its not gonna stop shit like that at all. Criminals will find a way to get a hold of a firearm legal or illegally. Finland may have very little in the way of legal firearms for the average Joe, they also only have a total population of something like 5 million. The USA for instance has over 300 million citizens(2012 Census info) these differences alone void any comparisons.
Keep in mind that this thread isn't about the USA - even though it's the most debated thing when it comes to the rights to own a gun. I live in Norway, with a population that will hit 5 million in March, where the police don't even carry a gun. And it have worked so far, and I personally am fond of it. I'd be more threatned to meet a police officer with an armed gun than to meet one without one. Even though I am strongly against being allowed to carry a gun, I think every country has their own needs. Maybe the US citizens should be allowed to carry a gun, maybe not. What do I know? It's all speculations.
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The only fix in the US would be simply to stop selling guns to civilians. Don't take them away - just stop making and selling them. Over the next several decades I guarantee gun violence will go down.
But really, the whole thing is moot. People have been killing other people since time immemorial and not having guns isn't going to stop them.
I own a 92FS which I keep in my apartment for home defense. I do feel safer having it and wouldn't hesitate to use it to kill (why dance around that word?) if I felt there was no other way to protect myself. Even so, all the talk about guns giving us "power" and "freedom" makes me cringe. I feel like those people who need a gun to feel powerful and free are the exact people who shouldn't own one.
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On February 20 2012 18:44 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 18:33 Belial88 wrote:
^ There's no situation to defuse, if some maniac is coming at you, you need a gun.
You seem to think that a police officer is a totally different entity than a person. Some people live in areas that are just as bad as any cop's beat, likewise, a police officer is a person just the same as anyone else. Maybe where you're from, things are peachy, but I wouldn't feel comfortable living where I do if my girlfriend didn't carry a gun.
You also seem to think people just flip shit and pull out guns. Completely not so. I live in a bad area, and just a few nights ago some completely drugged out kid hopped in my car. I had no idea what his intentions were, and I probably saved my life by having protection on myself. I didn't pull the gun on him, and I didn't force him to get into my car through the 6 inch opening in the window when I asked him if he was okay.
Anyone should be able to carry a gun (obviously barring someone who is too handicapped or has a bad record of some sort). It's the great equalizer.
On another note, it's just a hobby. Some people like toy trains, some play SC, some people make rockets or drive fast cars, others have guns. You could just as easily argue that people shouldn't have cars or alcohol, if not more so, than guns. I don't know about you, but I have never encountered a maniac with a gun, nor do I expect to. I have been robbed at knife point (I gave him the money) and had a rock thrown at my head with the intention to rob me (I remained conscious and ran away like crazy). In neither case would having a gun have helped me. At best in the rock throwing situation I would have stood my ground and shot at the buggers, maybe even hitting one of them. Then I would have had to explain to the police, not how I had been hit by a rock by a bunch of punks, but that I had shot in self defense and killed a child (I didn't get too good a look, but they weren't older than 16). Either way, I have never had a "maniac with a gun" come at me. With a maniac I presume you mean someone who does not intend to rob you, but is just out to kill at random. If he intends to rob you, it's pretty damned easy to defuse the situation: you give him the money. The maniac with a gun situation, however, happens so scarcely that I don't worry about it. As I wrote in the post above, even having a gun won't protect you from this, unless you intend to walk around every day with the gun by your side, fearfully looking around you at everybody who MIGHT be a maniac with a gun. It sure as hell didn't prevent Columbine or Virginia Tech, and I highly doubt it would've prevented the massacre in Liege.
Most people haven't been confronted by a maniac with a gun, until they're confronted by a maniac with a gun...
Owning a gun doesn't make you some paranoid delusional person who thinks there is a murderer around every corner out to get them. Also the gun's used in Columbine were obtained illegally, and the VT shooter would have never been able to acquire a gun in today's world(he acquired his guns "legally" becuase a loophole, which has now been closed, didn't force his psychiactric status to be disclosed to the state).
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On February 20 2012 18:33 Belial88 wrote:
If some maniac is coming at you, you need a gun.
Yeah I bet that happens a lot. Some maniac announces that hes about to shoot you with a gun, but luckily you have your gun on you and you can shoot him first.
In one year in America, 165 people will killed by handguns in which the police deem it was justified in self defense.
In that same year, approximately 800 people will be killed by accidental gun shooting.
So for every person that is saved by a gun, about 5 people will be accidently killed by a gun.
When looking at gun deaths, America has 12 times the number of gun related deaths per capita to children under 15 than every other developed nation combined.
Its REALLY clear to see, that the rediculously high gun ownership in America does far more harm than good. However people seem to be brainwashed into thinking that some "Maniac" is going to come after you and try to kill you for absolutely no reason, and will announce beforehand his intentions so you have enough forewarning to pull out your gun and protect yourself etc.
If you believe this, then you ARE a paranoid dellusional person who I would be really concerned about owning a gun.
Source:http://www.lcav.org/statistics-polling/gun_violence_statistics.asp#3
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On February 20 2012 19:20 Fen2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 18:33 Belial88 wrote:
If some maniac is coming at you, you need a gun.
In one year in America, 165 people will killed by handguns in which the police deem it was justified in self defense. In that same year, approximately 800 people will be killed by accidental gun shooting. So for every person that is saved by a gun, about 5 people will be accidently killed by a gun. When looking at gun deaths, America has 12 times the number of gun related deaths per capita to children under 15 than every other developed nation combined. Its REALLY clear to see, that the rediculously high gun ownership in America does far more harm than good. However people seem to be brainwashed into thinking that some "Maniac" is going to come after you and try to kill you for absolutely no reason, and will announce beforehand his intentions so you have enough forewarning to pull out your gun and protect yourself etc. If you believe this, then you ARE a paranoid dellusional person who I would be really concerned about owning a gun.
Well, I have seen american news. No wonder people there are always frightened about some crap.
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could u guys please post sources for any statistics you use?
edit : ty u guy 2 posts above me :D
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On February 20 2012 18:46 eNbee wrote:
It's a hard mindset to shake though to be fair. It seems to be spoon-fed to them from birth (correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the idea I get).
The fact of the matter is Europe has stricter gun laws than the United States, and FAR lower murder rates, a quick google search can tell you that.
Apart from gun control I'd like to see an argument made that Western European countries are less "free" than the United States.
If I play devils' advocate here I suppose you can argue that Western Europe is more socialist than the United States, thus more taxed, I guess you can call that less free.
Then again less fortunate people over here are far less chained to debt if they get health issues or hit any kind of bad luck, so you could call that having more "freedom" (I really hate the way this word is thrown around by Americans in office btw).
On Topic :
My stance as far as gun control goes is: owning a gun should be like getting a drivers' license, albeit a more difficult to accrue version. You take classes and (strenuous) tests, if you pass those you get your license and you can own a handgun/hunting rifle. I'm against the general population having easy access to weaponry that can extinguish someone else's life with a single finger movement...
They can act as a deterrent, but we'd all be better off if no one had them and everyone was civil towards each other(fat chance).
The united states has a homicide rate that is ~4.5 people per 100,000. European countries have a homicide rate of ~3.5. Switzerland (lax gun laws) has a lower homicide rate than many european countries with strict gun laws. European countries have a violent crimes rate of more than double the United States though. A QUICK google search tells me that you are more than 2x more likely to be injured in european countries than in the united states. I know these facts will just be ignored and overlooked even if I post the sources so if you truly believe me or truly disbelieve search International Homicide Rates and Gun Laws vs Homicide and Violent Crime Rates in google.
Just wanted to state these few facts before you spew your biased, misinformed view of things. Thanks.
By the way, guns will always be part of the United States just as murder will always be part of the world. I never understand the point of these threads. They really are nothing more than Europe criticizing the United States for everything we do like they have nothing better to do. They act just as ignorant as many Americans do. It's quite funny to have to hear it everyday on the forums that you've gradually developed a dislike of everything they say, regardless of whether it correct or not.
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On February 20 2012 19:45 ClanRH.TV wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 18:46 eNbee wrote:
It's a hard mindset to shake though to be fair. It seems to be spoon-fed to them from birth (correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the idea I get).
The fact of the matter is Europe has stricter gun laws than the United States, and FAR lower murder rates, a quick google search can tell you that.
Apart from gun control I'd like to see an argument made that Western European countries are less "free" than the United States.
If I play devils' advocate here I suppose you can argue that Western Europe is more socialist than the United States, thus more taxed, I guess you can call that less free.
Then again less fortunate people over here are far less chained to debt if they get health issues or hit any kind of bad luck, so you could call that having more "freedom" (I really hate the way this word is thrown around by Americans in office btw).
On Topic :
My stance as far as gun control goes is: owning a gun should be like getting a drivers' license, albeit a more difficult to accrue version. You take classes and (strenuous) tests, if you pass those you get your license and you can own a handgun/hunting rifle. I'm against the general population having easy access to weaponry that can extinguish someone else's life with a single finger movement...
They can act as a deterrent, but we'd all be better off if no one had them and everyone was civil towards each other(fat chance). The united states has a homicide rate that is ~4.5 people per 100,000. European countries have a homicide rate of ~3.5. Switzerland (lax gun laws) has a lower homicide rate than many european countries with strict gun laws. European countries have a violent crimes rate of more than double the United States though. A QUICK google search tells me that you are more than 2x more likely to be injured in european countries than in the united states. I know these facts will just be ignored and overlooked even if I post the sources so if you truly believe me or truly disbelieve search International Homicide Rates and Gun Laws vs Homicide and Violent Crime Rates in google. Just wanted to state these few facts before you spew your biased, misinformed view of things. Thanks. By the way, guns will always be part of the United States just as murder will always be part of the world. I never understand the point of these threads. They really are nothing more than Europe criticizing the United States for everything we do like they have nothing better to do. They act just as ignorant as many Americans do. It's quite funny to have to hear it everyday on the forums that you've gradually developed a dislike of everything they say, regardless of whether it correct or not.
They'll be ignored because you're comparing all of Europe with America which is completely unfair.
Europe is a continent, not a country. It contains many different countries, some developed and some not so developed. This is a discussion based on developed countries. So congrats, you might have a better homicide rate than a 3rd world country, but guess what? Thats nothing to be proud of, thats expected.
The Wiki page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
Indicates that West and Central Europe has a 1.2 per 100,000 homicide rate, which is FAR lower than North America's 4.8.
EDIT: also please post a source
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On February 20 2012 19:45 ClanRH.TV wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 18:46 eNbee wrote:
It's a hard mindset to shake though to be fair. It seems to be spoon-fed to them from birth (correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the idea I get).
The fact of the matter is Europe has stricter gun laws than the United States, and FAR lower murder rates, a quick google search can tell you that.
Apart from gun control I'd like to see an argument made that Western European countries are less "free" than the United States.
If I play devils' advocate here I suppose you can argue that Western Europe is more socialist than the United States, thus more taxed, I guess you can call that less free.
Then again less fortunate people over here are far less chained to debt if they get health issues or hit any kind of bad luck, so you could call that having more "freedom" (I really hate the way this word is thrown around by Americans in office btw).
On Topic :
My stance as far as gun control goes is: owning a gun should be like getting a drivers' license, albeit a more difficult to accrue version. You take classes and (strenuous) tests, if you pass those you get your license and you can own a handgun/hunting rifle. I'm against the general population having easy access to weaponry that can extinguish someone else's life with a single finger movement...
They can act as a deterrent, but we'd all be better off if no one had them and everyone was civil towards each other(fat chance). The united states has a homicide rate that is ~4.5 people per 100,000. European countries have a homicide rate of ~3.5. Switzerland (lax gun laws) has a lower homicide rate than many european countries with strict gun laws. European countries have a violent crimes rate of more than double the United States though. A QUICK google search tells me that you are more than 2x more likely to be injured in european countries than in the united states. I know these facts will just be ignored and overlooked even if I post the sources so if you truly believe me or truly disbelieve search International Homicide Rates and Gun Laws vs Homicide and Violent Crime Rates in google. Just wanted to state these few facts before you spew your biased, misinformed view of things. Thanks. By the way, guns will always be part of the United States just as murder will always be part of the world. I never understand the point of these threads. They really are nothing more than Europe criticizing the United States for everything we do like they have nothing better to do. They act just as ignorant as many Americans do. It's quite funny to have to hear it everyday on the forums that you've gradually developed a dislike of everything they say, regardless of whether it correct or not.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_per_100_peo-murders-per-100-000-people
USA : 5.9/100,000
Closest Western European country :
Finland : 2.8/100,000
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_ser_ass-crime-serious-assaults
USA : 281.6/100,000
Closest western European country :
Germany : 183.1/100,000
This one tells the biggest story, in a nice graphical form :
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2008/04/22/us/20080423_PRISON_GRAPHIC.html
Enjoy some sourced facts, I'm oh so uninformed 
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On February 20 2012 20:00 Fen2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 19:45 ClanRH.TV wrote:On February 20 2012 18:46 eNbee wrote:
It's a hard mindset to shake though to be fair. It seems to be spoon-fed to them from birth (correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the idea I get).
The fact of the matter is Europe has stricter gun laws than the United States, and FAR lower murder rates, a quick google search can tell you that.
Apart from gun control I'd like to see an argument made that Western European countries are less "free" than the United States.
If I play devils' advocate here I suppose you can argue that Western Europe is more socialist than the United States, thus more taxed, I guess you can call that less free.
Then again less fortunate people over here are far less chained to debt if they get health issues or hit any kind of bad luck, so you could call that having more "freedom" (I really hate the way this word is thrown around by Americans in office btw).
On Topic :
My stance as far as gun control goes is: owning a gun should be like getting a drivers' license, albeit a more difficult to accrue version. You take classes and (strenuous) tests, if you pass those you get your license and you can own a handgun/hunting rifle. I'm against the general population having easy access to weaponry that can extinguish someone else's life with a single finger movement...
They can act as a deterrent, but we'd all be better off if no one had them and everyone was civil towards each other(fat chance). The united states has a homicide rate that is ~4.5 people per 100,000. European countries have a homicide rate of ~3.5. Switzerland (lax gun laws) has a lower homicide rate than many european countries with strict gun laws. European countries have a violent crimes rate of more than double the United States though. A QUICK google search tells me that you are more than 2x more likely to be injured in european countries than in the united states. I know these facts will just be ignored and overlooked even if I post the sources so if you truly believe me or truly disbelieve search International Homicide Rates and Gun Laws vs Homicide and Violent Crime Rates in google. Just wanted to state these few facts before you spew your biased, misinformed view of things. Thanks. By the way, guns will always be part of the United States just as murder will always be part of the world. I never understand the point of these threads. They really are nothing more than Europe criticizing the United States for everything we do like they have nothing better to do. They act just as ignorant as many Americans do. It's quite funny to have to hear it everyday on the forums that you've gradually developed a dislike of everything they say, regardless of whether it correct or not. They'll be ignored because you're comparing all of Europe with America which is completely unfair. Europe is a continent, not a country. It contains many different countries, some developed and some not so developed. This is a discussion based on developed countries. So congrats, you might have a better homicide rate than a 3rd world country, but guess what? Thats nothing to be proud of, thats expected. The Wiki page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rateIndicates that West and Central Europe has a 1.2 per 100,000 homicide rate, which is FAR lower than North America's 4.8. EDIT: also please post a source
So essentially what your saying is that there are many other factors that contribute to the homicide rate? Yet you turn 180 degrees around and say just because two countries are "developed" its perfectly reasonable to compare them right? Its stuff exactly like this I'm talking about.
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On February 20 2012 20:07 eNbee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 19:45 ClanRH.TV wrote:On February 20 2012 18:46 eNbee wrote:
It's a hard mindset to shake though to be fair. It seems to be spoon-fed to them from birth (correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the idea I get).
The fact of the matter is Europe has stricter gun laws than the United States, and FAR lower murder rates, a quick google search can tell you that.
Apart from gun control I'd like to see an argument made that Western European countries are less "free" than the United States.
If I play devils' advocate here I suppose you can argue that Western Europe is more socialist than the United States, thus more taxed, I guess you can call that less free.
Then again less fortunate people over here are far less chained to debt if they get health issues or hit any kind of bad luck, so you could call that having more "freedom" (I really hate the way this word is thrown around by Americans in office btw).
On Topic :
My stance as far as gun control goes is: owning a gun should be like getting a drivers' license, albeit a more difficult to accrue version. You take classes and (strenuous) tests, if you pass those you get your license and you can own a handgun/hunting rifle. I'm against the general population having easy access to weaponry that can extinguish someone else's life with a single finger movement...
They can act as a deterrent, but we'd all be better off if no one had them and everyone was civil towards each other(fat chance). The united states has a homicide rate that is ~4.5 people per 100,000. European countries have a homicide rate of ~3.5. Switzerland (lax gun laws) has a lower homicide rate than many european countries with strict gun laws. European countries have a violent crimes rate of more than double the United States though. A QUICK google search tells me that you are more than 2x more likely to be injured in european countries than in the united states. I know these facts will just be ignored and overlooked even if I post the sources so if you truly believe me or truly disbelieve search International Homicide Rates and Gun Laws vs Homicide and Violent Crime Rates in google. Just wanted to state these few facts before you spew your biased, misinformed view of things. Thanks. By the way, guns will always be part of the United States just as murder will always be part of the world. I never understand the point of these threads. They really are nothing more than Europe criticizing the United States for everything we do like they have nothing better to do. They act just as ignorant as many Americans do. It's quite funny to have to hear it everyday on the forums that you've gradually developed a dislike of everything they say, regardless of whether it correct or not. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_per_100_peo-murders-per-100-000-peopleUSA : 5.9/100,000 Closest Western European country : Finland : 2.8/100,000 http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_ser_ass-crime-serious-assaultsUSA : 281.6/100,000 Closest western European country : Germany : 183.1/100,000 This one tells the biggest story, in a nice graphical form : http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2008/04/22/us/20080423_PRISON_GRAPHIC.htmlEnjoy some sourced facts, I'm oh so uninformed
Why are you comparing only Western European countries to the US? Is this solely based off of the fact that they are the "developed" nations? Switzerland is a developed nation and it has relatively lax gun laws and it has one of the lowest murder rates at ~.96/100,000.
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On February 20 2012 20:09 ClanRH.TV wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 20:00 Fen2 wrote:On February 20 2012 19:45 ClanRH.TV wrote:On February 20 2012 18:46 eNbee wrote:
It's a hard mindset to shake though to be fair. It seems to be spoon-fed to them from birth (correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the idea I get).
The fact of the matter is Europe has stricter gun laws than the United States, and FAR lower murder rates, a quick google search can tell you that.
Apart from gun control I'd like to see an argument made that Western European countries are less "free" than the United States.
If I play devils' advocate here I suppose you can argue that Western Europe is more socialist than the United States, thus more taxed, I guess you can call that less free.
Then again less fortunate people over here are far less chained to debt if they get health issues or hit any kind of bad luck, so you could call that having more "freedom" (I really hate the way this word is thrown around by Americans in office btw).
On Topic :
My stance as far as gun control goes is: owning a gun should be like getting a drivers' license, albeit a more difficult to accrue version. You take classes and (strenuous) tests, if you pass those you get your license and you can own a handgun/hunting rifle. I'm against the general population having easy access to weaponry that can extinguish someone else's life with a single finger movement...
They can act as a deterrent, but we'd all be better off if no one had them and everyone was civil towards each other(fat chance). The united states has a homicide rate that is ~4.5 people per 100,000. European countries have a homicide rate of ~3.5. Switzerland (lax gun laws) has a lower homicide rate than many european countries with strict gun laws. European countries have a violent crimes rate of more than double the United States though. A QUICK google search tells me that you are more than 2x more likely to be injured in european countries than in the united states. I know these facts will just be ignored and overlooked even if I post the sources so if you truly believe me or truly disbelieve search International Homicide Rates and Gun Laws vs Homicide and Violent Crime Rates in google. Just wanted to state these few facts before you spew your biased, misinformed view of things. Thanks. By the way, guns will always be part of the United States just as murder will always be part of the world. I never understand the point of these threads. They really are nothing more than Europe criticizing the United States for everything we do like they have nothing better to do. They act just as ignorant as many Americans do. It's quite funny to have to hear it everyday on the forums that you've gradually developed a dislike of everything they say, regardless of whether it correct or not. They'll be ignored because you're comparing all of Europe with America which is completely unfair. Europe is a continent, not a country. It contains many different countries, some developed and some not so developed. This is a discussion based on developed countries. So congrats, you might have a better homicide rate than a 3rd world country, but guess what? Thats nothing to be proud of, thats expected. The Wiki page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rateIndicates that West and Central Europe has a 1.2 per 100,000 homicide rate, which is FAR lower than North America's 4.8. EDIT: also please post a source So essentially what your saying is that there are many other factors that contribute to the homicide rate? Yet you turn 180 degrees around and say just because two countries are "developed" its perfectly reasonable to compare them right? Its stuff exactly like this I'm talking about.
Lol. You are doing it on purpose right? He is saying that comparing Romania and USA makes no sense. But Finland and USA makes sense because they are both developed countries.
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I really dont think guns should be allowed free to carry and purchase.
Cmon if a guy is robbing you, what you gonna shoot him dead?
IMO couple of hundreds euros (phone, jewelry) is not equal to stopping other peoples life.
U can always get non-lethal self defence measures.
In our country it's very rarely you here about someone being shot, mostly those would be some crime wars or somethin.
Anyway biggest killer in our country is smoking and car accidents.
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On February 20 2012 20:09 ClanRH.TV wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 20:00 Fen2 wrote:On February 20 2012 19:45 ClanRH.TV wrote:On February 20 2012 18:46 eNbee wrote:
It's a hard mindset to shake though to be fair. It seems to be spoon-fed to them from birth (correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the idea I get).
The fact of the matter is Europe has stricter gun laws than the United States, and FAR lower murder rates, a quick google search can tell you that.
Apart from gun control I'd like to see an argument made that Western European countries are less "free" than the United States.
If I play devils' advocate here I suppose you can argue that Western Europe is more socialist than the United States, thus more taxed, I guess you can call that less free.
Then again less fortunate people over here are far less chained to debt if they get health issues or hit any kind of bad luck, so you could call that having more "freedom" (I really hate the way this word is thrown around by Americans in office btw).
On Topic :
My stance as far as gun control goes is: owning a gun should be like getting a drivers' license, albeit a more difficult to accrue version. You take classes and (strenuous) tests, if you pass those you get your license and you can own a handgun/hunting rifle. I'm against the general population having easy access to weaponry that can extinguish someone else's life with a single finger movement...
They can act as a deterrent, but we'd all be better off if no one had them and everyone was civil towards each other(fat chance). The united states has a homicide rate that is ~4.5 people per 100,000. European countries have a homicide rate of ~3.5. Switzerland (lax gun laws) has a lower homicide rate than many european countries with strict gun laws. European countries have a violent crimes rate of more than double the United States though. A QUICK google search tells me that you are more than 2x more likely to be injured in european countries than in the united states. I know these facts will just be ignored and overlooked even if I post the sources so if you truly believe me or truly disbelieve search International Homicide Rates and Gun Laws vs Homicide and Violent Crime Rates in google. Just wanted to state these few facts before you spew your biased, misinformed view of things. Thanks. By the way, guns will always be part of the United States just as murder will always be part of the world. I never understand the point of these threads. They really are nothing more than Europe criticizing the United States for everything we do like they have nothing better to do. They act just as ignorant as many Americans do. It's quite funny to have to hear it everyday on the forums that you've gradually developed a dislike of everything they say, regardless of whether it correct or not. They'll be ignored because you're comparing all of Europe with America which is completely unfair. Europe is a continent, not a country. It contains many different countries, some developed and some not so developed. This is a discussion based on developed countries. So congrats, you might have a better homicide rate than a 3rd world country, but guess what? Thats nothing to be proud of, thats expected. The Wiki page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rateIndicates that West and Central Europe has a 1.2 per 100,000 homicide rate, which is FAR lower than North America's 4.8. EDIT: also please post a source So essentially what your saying is that there are many other factors that contribute to the homicide rate? Yet you turn 180 degrees around and say just because two countries are "developed" its perfectly reasonable to compare them right? Its stuff exactly like this I'm talking about.
Poverty has an extreme influence on violent crime, yes. How about we compare the US to Haïti. Wow, you suddenly come off looking like saints. However, it is an idiotic comparison. It is also an idiotic comparison to compare the US to Bulgaria or Albania, for similar reasons (albeit not as extreme). However, unless you drop the "we're a developed nation" criterion, a comparison to Germany, Spain or Finland is completely justified.
To be completely fair, though, I agree that you cannot compare just guns, because the stricter gun laws are not the only difference between western Europe and the US: there's also a far larger social welfare system that prevents extreme poverty and the gang-related problems that are correlated with that poverty (not to say we don't have violent streetcrime and gang-related shit going on in Europe, it's just pretty damned low-key compared to the US).
I think Michael Moore actually made an excellent point when he showed that gun ownership does not have to be a problem. All you need to do is look at Canada or Switzerland. However, guns + poverty + fear-mongering on TV results in one helluva mess. Especially when people aren't educated in how to take care of, and use, those guns.
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On February 20 2012 20:15 ClanRH.TV wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 20:07 eNbee wrote:On February 20 2012 19:45 ClanRH.TV wrote:On February 20 2012 18:46 eNbee wrote:
It's a hard mindset to shake though to be fair. It seems to be spoon-fed to them from birth (correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the idea I get).
The fact of the matter is Europe has stricter gun laws than the United States, and FAR lower murder rates, a quick google search can tell you that.
Apart from gun control I'd like to see an argument made that Western European countries are less "free" than the United States.
If I play devils' advocate here I suppose you can argue that Western Europe is more socialist than the United States, thus more taxed, I guess you can call that less free.
Then again less fortunate people over here are far less chained to debt if they get health issues or hit any kind of bad luck, so you could call that having more "freedom" (I really hate the way this word is thrown around by Americans in office btw).
On Topic :
My stance as far as gun control goes is: owning a gun should be like getting a drivers' license, albeit a more difficult to accrue version. You take classes and (strenuous) tests, if you pass those you get your license and you can own a handgun/hunting rifle. I'm against the general population having easy access to weaponry that can extinguish someone else's life with a single finger movement...
They can act as a deterrent, but we'd all be better off if no one had them and everyone was civil towards each other(fat chance). The united states has a homicide rate that is ~4.5 people per 100,000. European countries have a homicide rate of ~3.5. Switzerland (lax gun laws) has a lower homicide rate than many european countries with strict gun laws. European countries have a violent crimes rate of more than double the United States though. A QUICK google search tells me that you are more than 2x more likely to be injured in european countries than in the united states. I know these facts will just be ignored and overlooked even if I post the sources so if you truly believe me or truly disbelieve search International Homicide Rates and Gun Laws vs Homicide and Violent Crime Rates in google. Just wanted to state these few facts before you spew your biased, misinformed view of things. Thanks. By the way, guns will always be part of the United States just as murder will always be part of the world. I never understand the point of these threads. They really are nothing more than Europe criticizing the United States for everything we do like they have nothing better to do. They act just as ignorant as many Americans do. It's quite funny to have to hear it everyday on the forums that you've gradually developed a dislike of everything they say, regardless of whether it correct or not. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_per_100_peo-murders-per-100-000-peopleUSA : 5.9/100,000 Closest Western European country : Finland : 2.8/100,000 http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_ser_ass-crime-serious-assaultsUSA : 281.6/100,000 Closest western European country : Germany : 183.1/100,000 This one tells the biggest story, in a nice graphical form : http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2008/04/22/us/20080423_PRISON_GRAPHIC.htmlEnjoy some sourced facts, I'm oh so uninformed Why are you comparing only Western European countries to the US? Is this solely based off of the fact that they are the "developed" nations? Switzerland is a developed nation and it has relatively lax gun laws and it has one of the lowest murder rates at ~.96/100,000.
I don't feel it's fair to compare countries that have areas akin to the old wild west to stable countries such as those of central and western Europe, and the US.
Also Switzerland is an example of doing it right indeed, they have mandatory military service, which leads to the point I made earlier in the thread. Widespread gun ownership isn't the issue, education is. It's extremely difficult to properly educate an entire populace, so strict gun control is the next best thing. Widespread unregulated and under-educated gun ownership is very dangerous.
Also, don't mistake me for an "America-basher" the US has many things which I admire, the way you handle guns isn't one of them though.
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On February 20 2012 19:18 PHILtheTANK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 18:44 Acrofales wrote:On February 20 2012 18:33 Belial88 wrote:
^ There's no situation to defuse, if some maniac is coming at you, you need a gun.
You seem to think that a police officer is a totally different entity than a person. Some people live in areas that are just as bad as any cop's beat, likewise, a police officer is a person just the same as anyone else. Maybe where you're from, things are peachy, but I wouldn't feel comfortable living where I do if my girlfriend didn't carry a gun.
You also seem to think people just flip shit and pull out guns. Completely not so. I live in a bad area, and just a few nights ago some completely drugged out kid hopped in my car. I had no idea what his intentions were, and I probably saved my life by having protection on myself. I didn't pull the gun on him, and I didn't force him to get into my car through the 6 inch opening in the window when I asked him if he was okay.
Anyone should be able to carry a gun (obviously barring someone who is too handicapped or has a bad record of some sort). It's the great equalizer.
On another note, it's just a hobby. Some people like toy trains, some play SC, some people make rockets or drive fast cars, others have guns. You could just as easily argue that people shouldn't have cars or alcohol, if not more so, than guns. I don't know about you, but I have never encountered a maniac with a gun, nor do I expect to. I have been robbed at knife point (I gave him the money) and had a rock thrown at my head with the intention to rob me (I remained conscious and ran away like crazy). In neither case would having a gun have helped me. At best in the rock throwing situation I would have stood my ground and shot at the buggers, maybe even hitting one of them. Then I would have had to explain to the police, not how I had been hit by a rock by a bunch of punks, but that I had shot in self defense and killed a child (I didn't get too good a look, but they weren't older than 16). Either way, I have never had a "maniac with a gun" come at me. With a maniac I presume you mean someone who does not intend to rob you, but is just out to kill at random. If he intends to rob you, it's pretty damned easy to defuse the situation: you give him the money. The maniac with a gun situation, however, happens so scarcely that I don't worry about it. As I wrote in the post above, even having a gun won't protect you from this, unless you intend to walk around every day with the gun by your side, fearfully looking around you at everybody who MIGHT be a maniac with a gun. It sure as hell didn't prevent Columbine or Virginia Tech, and I highly doubt it would've prevented the massacre in Liege. Most people haven't been confronted by a maniac with a gun, until they're confronted by a maniac with a gun... Owning a gun doesn't make you some paranoid delusional person who thinks there is a murderer around every corner out to get them. Also the gun's used in Columbine were obtained illegally, and the VT shooter would have never been able to acquire a gun in today's world(he acquired his guns "legally" becuase a loophole, which has now been closed, didn't force his psychiactric status to be disclosed to the state).
You're arguing from the wrong side of the fence: I wasn't saying Columbine happened because they had legal access to guns: I'm saying Columbine wasn't prevented DESPITE other people having legal access to guns.
If some crazy nutjob wants to go on a killing spree, they will acquire a gun and ship themselves off to an island in Norway, a shopping square in Liege or Nieuwegein, or a random school anywhere in the world, where they will pull out their guns and start shooting innocents. However, these people will also not be stopped by you being allowed to have a gun in a shoe-box under your bed, which you never learned how to use properly.
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