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dsousa
United States1363 Posts
Who has the right to tell me I can't own a gun? A gun is just a tool. It can be used illegally, but in of itself there should be nothing illegal about it because simply owning one does not affect others. Using it inappropriately can be illegal, but not its mere existence or ownership. Individual rights come first, and society should be built up around protecting the rights of individuals, not around lawmakers trying to create a utopia through theory crafting about the "greater good". | ||
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Voros
United States222 Posts
Personally I believe no. The only reason I can see somebody needing a gun is if they live in some place with dangerous animals, such as bears and shit like that, just for self-defense. Other than that, I see no reason why a person needs a gun. The only reason I can see that someone might need freedom of speech is if they live in an autocratic society, such as the one experienced within the former Soviet Union. Other than that, I see no reason why anyone should have freedom of expression--it makes me very uncomfortable. Thankfully, and in spite of the best efforts of many of its politicians, the United States tends to be at the vanguard of civil liberties. It's no surprise that citizens of nations that lack something as basic as freedom of expression or freedom from unwarranted searches would also be suspicious of freedom to own arms. Radical freedom is a frightening thing. | ||
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K_Dilkington
Sweden449 Posts
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Rassy
Netherlands2308 Posts
If the problem is that criminals have guns the solution is not to give the public guns but to prevent the criminals from getting the guns. "more guns equall less crime" lol you dont have anny statistics to back up this claim. Usa has the most guns of probably anny country and it has terrible crime rates Europe has virtually no guns and has lo crime rate | ||
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Focuspants
Canada780 Posts
On February 20 2012 17:56 Voros wrote: The only reason I can see that someone might need freedom of speech is if they live in an autocratic society, such as the one experienced within the former Soviet Union. Other than that, I see no reason why anyone should have freedom of expression--it makes me very uncomfortable. Thankfully, and in spite of the best efforts of many of its politicians, the United States tends to be at the vanguard of civil liberties. It's no surprise that citizens of nations that lack something as basic as freedom of expression or freedom from unwarranted searches would also be suspicious of freedom to own arms. Radical freedom is a frightening thing. Freedom of speech has limitations and restrictions on it. Just like guns should. The fact of the matter is, I dont trust "the average person" with very much, especially not a firearm. | ||
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Zapdos_Smithh
Canada2620 Posts
On February 20 2012 17:56 Voros wrote: The only reason I can see that someone might need freedom of speech is if they live in an autocratic society, such as the one experienced within the former Soviet Union. Other than that, I see no reason why anyone should have freedom of expression--it makes me very uncomfortable. Thankfully, and in spite of the best efforts of many of its politicians, the United States tends to be at the vanguard of civil liberties. It's no surprise that citizens of nations that lack something as basic as freedom of expression or freedom from unwarranted searches would also be suspicious of freedom to own arms. Radical freedom is a frightening thing. Lol yeah man you hit the nail on the head. I live in Canada, I have no idea what freedom is, you know, with fucking free healthcare and legal gay marriage everywhere and all that. Geez I wish I lived where you lived, only then I could understand the true concept of freedom! It is indeed a frightening concept for us "nations that lack something as basic as freedom of expression", I'm slightly shitting my pants just thinking about the concept of freedom. ... What your point had to do with owning a gun I have no fucking idea... | ||
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WTFZerg
United States704 Posts
I can carry a gun because it is one of my constitutionally guaranteed rights. Same as calling anyone a fucking retard for disagreeing. edit: Also, there's the kicker. The United States government does not even begin to care about the opinion of foreign nations in regards to gun control, and frankly I share the same sentiment. | ||
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Heweree
United Kingdom497 Posts
On February 20 2012 17:56 Voros wrote: The only reason I can see that someone might need freedom of speech is if they live in an autocratic society, such as the one experienced within the former Soviet Union. Other than that, I see no reason why anyone should have freedom of expression--it makes me very uncomfortable. Thankfully, and in spite of the best efforts of many of its politicians, the United States tends to be at the vanguard of civil liberties. It's no surprise that citizens of nations that lack something as basic as freedom of expression or freedom from unwarranted searches would also be suspicious of freedom to own arms. Radical freedom is a frightening thing. There is a line where individual freedom must be stopped so that every other citizens can benefit from its freedom. Example: You insult someone. You have the right to insult someone, liberty of speech man. But I think, most importantly, the other guy has the right to not be insulted. Same for guns, in Europe we have the right to not have guns surrounding us. And don't start speaking about America being the heaven of freedom while the rest of the world is chained. We are doing good for ourselves, and don't worry we fully benefit from our freedom. And we don't lack any compared to the US. Actually we sadly don't have Fox news like you :s And in France we have the right to benefit from a decent health care system. We can't get rid of guns in one day, but that's where we should tend. You can legally carry guns, good for you. But I think it's not the way out. | ||
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Iksf
United Kingdom444 Posts
On February 20 2012 18:09 Zapdos_Smithh wrote: Lol yeah man you hit the nail on the head. I live in Canada, I have no idea what freedom is, you know, with fucking free healthcare and legal gay marriage everywhere and all that. Geez I wish I lived where you lived, only then I could understand the true concept of freedom! It is indeed a frightening concept for us "nations that lack something as basic as freedom of expression", I'm slightly shitting my pants just thinking about the concept of freedom. ... What your point had to do with owning a gun I have no fucking idea... My feelings exactly. Americans really love this "we are the only free people" crap. | ||
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Fen2
Australia51 Posts
Guns do not defuse situations. Guns escalate situations. The only time you should ever need a gun for self defense is when you KNOW someone is out to kill you. In every other scenario, having a gun is more likely to get you shot and killed because you represent a threat that needs to be dealt with. Take a second to think about the average person. The average person is a fucking idiot, with no common sense and is incapable of logical thought. And you are arguing that this person should be able to own a lethal weapon? Are you crazy? | ||
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Heweree
United Kingdom497 Posts
On February 20 2012 18:28 Fen2 wrote: I seriously don't understand whats wrong with you people. I've seen this debate countless times, and it still boggles me how flawed people's thinking is. Guns do not defuse situations. Guns escalate situations. The only time you should ever need a gun for self defense is when you KNOW someone is out to kill you. In every other scenario, having a gun is more likely to get you shot and killed because you represent a threat that needs to be dealt with. Take a second to think about the average person. The average person is a fucking idiot, with no common sense and is incapable of logical thought. And you are arguing that this person should be able to own a lethal weapon? Are you crazy? You get it all wrong. Here is what will happen. The law abiding citizen will shoot the bad guy and save his daughter and his wife from being raped from the bad guy who came in their house because raping womens in front of the law abiding citizen is his thing. Don't sort out crazy scenarios where it could end badly when 2 people with a gun face each other. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
You seem to think that a police officer is a totally different entity than a person. Some people live in areas that are just as bad as any cop's beat, likewise, a police officer is a person just the same as anyone else. Maybe where you're from, things are peachy, but I wouldn't feel comfortable living where I do if my girlfriend didn't carry a gun. You also seem to think people just flip shit and pull out guns. Completely not so. I live in a bad area, and just a few nights ago some completely drugged out kid hopped in my car. I had no idea what his intentions were, and I probably saved my life by having protection on myself. I didn't pull the gun on him, and I didn't force him to get into my car through the 6 inch opening in the window when I asked him if he was okay. Anyone should be able to carry a gun (obviously barring someone who is too handicapped or has a bad record of some sort). It's the great equalizer. On another note, it's just a hobby. Some people like toy trains, some play SC, some people make rockets or drive fast cars, others have guns. You could just as easily argue that people shouldn't have cars or alcohol, if not more so, than guns. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17979 Posts
On February 20 2012 02:53 Hertzy wrote: The other thread is going off topic with people debating about the general right to own and carry guns. This has been an ongoing debate in the United States since their founding. In Finland, where public carry permissions are effectively nonexistent, the school shootings of the past decade have been fueling the debate on gun ownership in general. I personally believe that, in a perfect world, the law enforcement alone would be capable of wielding all the violence needed to keep society safe. However, this is an imperfect world. Criminals have gotten access to guns, and that is a genie that isn't going back into the bottle. The law enforcement has finite resources and can't always be there in time. Therefore I believe a person should have the right to arm themself for the purpose of self defence. Further, I do not think that the actions of what is essentially the global bottom ten participants in a class of hobbies should be taken as a reason to limit said hobbies. How would legalizing guns stop school shootings? Do you remember Columbine? Unless you are seriously advocating teachers to stand in front of the class with their gun at the ready for the one in a million chance they might save the day, but are instead teaching fear and violence to the children. Guns don't kill people, people kill people is an obviously true adage. However, it needs an amendment: guns don't kill people, it just makes it more likely that people will kill people. The number of people who die in Europe due to stupid is relatively low: criminals may use guns, but they use them mainly against other criminals with guns. In the end, if you're a gas station owner and you get held up, it doesn't really matter to you whether that's with a gun or a knife. If, however, you have a gun under the counter you might want to get heroic, generally ending with you getting shot in the process. In many cases the robber is caught on video and easily apprehended by the police anyway. Relaxing gun laws is a great way of getting innocent people shot. The only people I feel should be allowed to own a gun are those who have had a hefty amount of training to be allowed to use a gun, which is generally how gun laws in western europe work in the first place. It's not impossible to own a gun in Holland, but you have to pass an exam showing that you know how to take care of the gun and can aim and shoot what you intend to shoot. Guns are a dangerous item and you should not be allowed to own one without knowing how to use it properly (the same goes for cars, btw. I don't think anybody has proposed that you can own a car without having a driver's license? ) | ||
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Marti
552 Posts
On February 20 2012 18:14 TanTzoR wrote: There is a line where individual freedom must be stopped so that every other citizens can benefit from its freedom. Example: You insult someone. You have the right to insult someone, liberty of speech man. But I think, most importantly, the other guy has the right to not be insulted. Same for guns, in Europe we have the right to not have guns surrounding us. And don't start speaking about America being the heaven of freedom while the rest of the world is chained. We are doing good for ourselves, and don't worry we fully benefit from our freedom. And we don't lack any compared to the US. Actually we sadly don't have Fox news like you :s And in France we have the right to benefit from a decent health care system. We can't get rid of guns in one day, but that's where we should tend. You can legally carry guns, good for you. But I think it's not the way out. I live in europe and i sure as hell would like to have the right to carry a gun. I don't like how people make it sound like owning a gun is a solution to the police not being able to deal with thugs, but even then, in a wolrd where pizza gets to your house faster than the police, i think this argument is pretty solid. Every man should have the right to defend himself regardless, unless you admit that we are all irresponsibles, but that's like saying policemen, soldiers and people working for the governement are more responsibles than us since they have that right and we don't. I'd like to add that people who carry guns don't see the difference between those who do and those who don't. If it's your right it's not like someone is forcing you to own one, it's available if you feel like you need it so why should you even care ? If you don't want one, don't buy one, but as long as thugs can have access to it, as long as people working for the government have access to it, it's only fair that i should have access to it. Also please don't make it sound like europe is a better place to live because we don't have guns. Here in france there have been a few cases of someone defending himself against a robber, wounding the robber and ending up being sued by him. While it is uncommon, it can happen. I would much prefer having higher crime rate but the means and rights to defend myself than the hope that the police will get there in time. | ||
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targ
Malaysia445 Posts
On February 20 2012 18:14 TanTzoR wrote: There is a line where individual freedom must be stopped so that every other citizens can benefit from its freedom. Example: You insult someone. You have the right to insult someone, liberty of speech man. But I think, most importantly, the other guy has the right to not be insulted. Same for guns, in Europe we have the right to not have guns surrounding us. And don't start speaking about America being the heaven of freedom while the rest of the world is chained. We are doing good for ourselves, and don't worry we fully benefit from our freedom. And we don't lack any compared to the US. Actually we sadly don't have Fox news like you :s And in France we have the right to benefit from a decent health care system. We can't get rid of guns in one day, but that's where we should tend. You can legally carry guns, good for you. But I think it's not the way out. The other guy has the option to sue me for defamation if what I insult him is not true. If it is true I have the right to say it. | ||
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Swede
New Zealand853 Posts
There's nothing else to debate. The statistics are the winner on the day. | ||
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Myrddraal
Australia937 Posts
On February 20 2012 03:24 Yongwang wrote: Automatic weapons I could understand, but there's still a much stronger argument for supporting the right to own a machine gun than there is against the right. However, why in the world would you want to ban pistols? I assume in your ideal world rifles and shotguns would be extremely regulated to the point where they were impossible to own as well? What is this stronger argument for supporting the right to own a machine gun? Obviously it is just your opinion that the argument is stronger as you are quite clearly biased, but still I would like to hear it. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17979 Posts
On February 20 2012 18:33 Belial88 wrote: ^ There's no situation to defuse, if some maniac is coming at you, you need a gun. You seem to think that a police officer is a totally different entity than a person. Some people live in areas that are just as bad as any cop's beat, likewise, a police officer is a person just the same as anyone else. Maybe where you're from, things are peachy, but I wouldn't feel comfortable living where I do if my girlfriend didn't carry a gun. You also seem to think people just flip shit and pull out guns. Completely not so. I live in a bad area, and just a few nights ago some completely drugged out kid hopped in my car. I had no idea what his intentions were, and I probably saved my life by having protection on myself. I didn't pull the gun on him, and I didn't force him to get into my car through the 6 inch opening in the window when I asked him if he was okay. Anyone should be able to carry a gun (obviously barring someone who is too handicapped or has a bad record of some sort). It's the great equalizer. On another note, it's just a hobby. Some people like toy trains, some play SC, some people make rockets or drive fast cars, others have guns. You could just as easily argue that people shouldn't have cars or alcohol, if not more so, than guns. I don't know about you, but I have never encountered a maniac with a gun, nor do I expect to. I have been robbed at knife point (I gave him the money) and had a rock thrown at my head with the intention to rob me (I remained conscious and ran away like crazy). In neither case would having a gun have helped me. At best in the rock throwing situation I would have stood my ground and shot at the buggers, maybe even hitting one of them. Then I would have had to explain to the police, not how I had been hit by a rock by a bunch of punks, but that I had shot in self defense and killed a child (I didn't get too good a look, but they weren't older than 16). Either way, I have never had a "maniac with a gun" come at me. With a maniac I presume you mean someone who does not intend to rob you, but is just out to kill at random. If he intends to rob you, it's pretty damned easy to defuse the situation: you give him the money. The maniac with a gun situation, however, happens so scarcely that I don't worry about it. As I wrote in the post above, even having a gun won't protect you from this, unless you intend to walk around every day with the gun by your side, fearfully looking around you at everybody who MIGHT be a maniac with a gun. It sure as hell didn't prevent Columbine or Virginia Tech, and I highly doubt it would've prevented the massacre in Liege. | ||
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Ausfailia
Australia123 Posts
On February 20 2012 03:11 Yongwang wrote: Hello everyone in this other thread! As to answer the OP's question, as I'm sure you already know my stance on this from the other thread, I fully support the right to bear arms and the right to carry. At the end of the day, there is no legitimate reason for the government to take away either of those fundamental rights. Remember kids, fear is not a reason to take away people's freedom. Nor is it a reason to take away people's lives. | ||
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eNbee
Belgium487 Posts
On February 20 2012 18:15 Iksf wrote: My feelings exactly. Americans really love this "we are the only free people" crap. It's a hard mindset to shake though to be fair. It seems to be spoon-fed to them from birth (correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the idea I get). The fact of the matter is Europe has stricter gun laws than the United States, and FAR lower murder rates, a quick google search can tell you that. Apart from gun control I'd like to see an argument made that Western European countries are less "free" than the United States. If I play devils' advocate here I suppose you can argue that Western Europe is more socialist than the United States, thus more taxed, I guess you can call that less free. Then again less fortunate people over here are far less chained to debt if they get health issues or hit any kind of bad luck, so you could call that having more "freedom" (I really hate the way this word is thrown around by Americans in office btw). On Topic : My stance as far as gun control goes is: owning a gun should be like getting a drivers' license, albeit a more difficult to accrue version. You take classes and (strenuous) tests, if you pass those you get your license and you can own a handgun/hunting rifle. I'm against the general population having easy access to weaponry that can extinguish someone else's life with a single finger movement... They can act as a deterrent, but we'd all be better off if no one had them and everyone was civil towards each other(fat chance). | ||
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