EPTWhat explains the much higher incidence of firearm-related homicide in the United States than in other developed countries, if not the proliferation of the guns themselves? (and by much higher, it's much higher on at least one order of magnitude per capita in most cases)
If you're seeing this topic then another mass shooting hap…
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
What explains the much higher incidence of firearm-related homicide in the United States than in other developed countries, if not the proliferation of the guns themselves? (and by much higher, it's much higher on at least one order of magnitude per capita in most cases) | ||
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Esk23
United States447 Posts
On August 01 2012 03:26 semantics wrote: your point is silly, how do you think driving laws are enforced? If you're going with your simplistic minded snide remarks yes police pull people over in cars with other cars. But a red light ticket can come from a camera, you register your vehicle with the dmv no cars there either. Car standards are enforced at the plant that makes the cars, don't really need cars there to enforce laws maybe to get there. Making snide remarks just reduces a conversation doesn't help it. Perhaps, but driving laws do not restrict your rights to own and drive whatever kind of car you want. There are rules you have to follow or you get punished. Just like it is with guns, they are for self defense, sporting, hunting, purposes, if used to murder you go to jail or even get the death pentalty. | ||
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Esk23
United States447 Posts
On August 01 2012 03:34 wherebugsgo wrote: So to anyone who is against stricter gun control in the United States: What explains the much higher incidence of firearm-related homicide in the United States than in other developed countries, if not the proliferation of the guns themselves? (and by much higher, it's much higher on at least one order of magnitude per capita in most cases) A lot of it is gang related shootings and some of it is caused by illegal alien gangs that shouldn't be here to begin with. It's simply a representation of the kinds of criminals we have here. It can't be argued that there is more gun related incidents here than other developed countries, but if you look at just overall crime statistics US is behind some other countries in that regard: # 1 Dominica: 113.822 per 1,000 people # 2 New Zealand: 105.881 per 1,000 people # 3 Finland: 101.526 per 1,000 people # 4 Denmark: 92.8277 per 1,000 people # 5 Chile: 88.226 per 1,000 people # 6 United Kingdom: 85.5517 per 1,000 people # 7 Montserrat: 80.3982 per 1,000 people # 8 United States: 80.0645 per 1,000 people # 9 Netherlands: 79.5779 per 1,000 people # 10 South Africa: 77.1862 per 1,000 people # 11 Germany: 75.9996 per 1,000 people # 12 Canada: 75.4921 per 1,000 people # 13 Norway: 71.8639 per 1,000 people # 14 France: 62.1843 per 1,000 people # 15 Seychelles: 52.9265 per 1,000 people http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/vc_majorthefts/gangs/ | ||
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Leth0
856 Posts
On August 01 2012 03:34 wherebugsgo wrote: So to anyone who is against stricter gun control in the United States: What explains the much higher incidence of firearm-related homicide in the United States than in other developed countries, if not the proliferation of the guns themselves? (and by much higher, it's much higher on at least one order of magnitude per capita in most cases) I would be willing to bet that the US drug abuse and crime surrounding that entire scene (production, distribution, sales) have more of an effect on gun related deaths then just the simple fact of guns being here. There are so many factors that lead towards problems like what has happened and it would be extremely ignorant to just look at one simple thing and assume that it is the only reason. People are complicated things, and when one goes off the hook and starts killing innocent people at random there is more going on there then just him being able to get a gun. Most of the people who own guns and are legally registered are just normal people. As much as people love to stereotype every gun owner as some red neck hillbilly who dropped out of high school it's not true, and certainly doesn't make their arguments look any better. | ||
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Equity213
Canada873 Posts
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ikh
United Kingdom251 Posts
On August 01 2012 03:42 Esk23 wrote: A lot of it is gang related shootings and some of it is caused by illegal alien gangs that shouldn't be here to begin with. It's simply a representation of the kinds of criminals we have here. It can't be argued that there is more gun related incidents here than other developed countries, but if you look at just overall crime statistics US is behind some other countries in that regard: # 1 Dominica: 113.822 per 1,000 people ... # 15 Seychelles: 52.9265 per 1,000 people http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/vc_majorthefts/gangs/ this is seriously a/the (seemingly unsourced) statistic you think is relevant to the topic/quoted post. you are beyond incredible if you think it can be quoted in pretty much any discussion about anything whatsoever :O i get it that it's hard to find numbers that talk your dialect, but at least try picking the same language! and even if this... "something" was pertinent to the topic, pro tip: crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence. when you add shit like speeding tickets into a discussion about violent crime, you know your head can't be screwed on quite right. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On August 01 2012 03:42 Esk23 wrote: A lot of it is gang related shootings and some of it is caused by illegal alien gangs that shouldn't be here to begin with. It's simply a representation of the kinds of criminals we have here. It can't be argued that there is more gun related incidents here than other developed countries, but if you look at just overall crime statistics US is behind some other countries in that regard: # 1 Dominica: 113.822 per 1,000 people # 2 New Zealand: 105.881 per 1,000 people # 3 Finland: 101.526 per 1,000 people # 4 Denmark: 92.8277 per 1,000 people # 5 Chile: 88.226 per 1,000 people # 6 United Kingdom: 85.5517 per 1,000 people # 7 Montserrat: 80.3982 per 1,000 people # 8 United States: 80.0645 per 1,000 people # 9 Netherlands: 79.5779 per 1,000 people # 10 South Africa: 77.1862 per 1,000 people # 11 Germany: 75.9996 per 1,000 people # 12 Canada: 75.4921 per 1,000 people # 13 Norway: 71.8639 per 1,000 people # 14 France: 62.1843 per 1,000 people # 15 Seychelles: 52.9265 per 1,000 people http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/vc_majorthefts/gangs/ Of course it's looking like that if you use overall crime statistics lol. Noone said prohibiting guns will stop crimes from happening in general but it's going to be less bloody and will reduce the number of those really serious ones, like murder. Of course there's still the random guy who steels a bike on the street at night. Laws about guns won't be able to prevent that from happening, so instead of linking some statistics like percentage of homocides per capita or whatever else, you chose to link crime rates in general? Actually I have to guess it's crime rates in general because that's what it sounds like from what you posted and you haven't included any links. Seriously? Here's a pic from the Federal Criminal Police Office (Germany) - Report ( taken from bka.de) about german crime distribution: + Show Spoiler [somewhat big pic?] + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/K6BHE.png) Those 0,1% are what we're talking about. And instead of linking something that shows those crimes in relation you chose to paint over the data by including 99,9% of information that has nothing to do with this thread? Of course if we're talking about 99,9% of bullshit and only 0,1% of data that actually has something to do with the thread it's going to look more homogenous because of those 99,9%. Why not talk about statistics that are related to the topic? I could link a shitton of german stastics. Those obviously won't help either but I don't know where to look for neutral stastics (read: stastics, not someones interpretations of some statistics!) for the US. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On August 01 2012 03:42 Esk23 wrote: A lot of it is gang related shootings and some of it is caused by illegal alien gangs that shouldn't be here to begin with. It's simply a representation of the kinds of criminals we have here. It can't be argued that there is more gun related incidents here than other developed countries, but if you look at just overall crime statistics US is behind some other countries in that regard: # 1 Dominica: 113.822 per 1,000 people # 2 New Zealand: 105.881 per 1,000 people # 3 Finland: 101.526 per 1,000 people # 4 Denmark: 92.8277 per 1,000 people # 5 Chile: 88.226 per 1,000 people # 6 United Kingdom: 85.5517 per 1,000 people # 7 Montserrat: 80.3982 per 1,000 people # 8 United States: 80.0645 per 1,000 people # 9 Netherlands: 79.5779 per 1,000 people # 10 South Africa: 77.1862 per 1,000 people # 11 Germany: 75.9996 per 1,000 people # 12 Canada: 75.4921 per 1,000 people # 13 Norway: 71.8639 per 1,000 people # 14 France: 62.1843 per 1,000 people # 15 Seychelles: 52.9265 per 1,000 people http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/vc_majorthefts/gangs/ Why are you trying to compare overall crime statistics to fire-arm related homicides? Not to mention, that doesn't really answer the question. It's just a cop-out for an answer. There are gangs in Mexico too, in fact they're far more prevalent in Mexico than here. Yet, their homicide rate is lower. Their gun ownership rate happens to be lower too. (and their gun laws are, oddly enough, stricter than U.S policies). Yet, socioeconomically I would argue that Mexico is far worse off than we are. Even if you look at just homicides (which are all-inclusive, fire-arm related or not) the United States is still one of the highest developed countries on the list. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate The only major developed country ahead of the U.S. on that list is Russia. On August 01 2012 03:51 Leth0 wrote: I would be willing to bet that the US drug abuse and crime surrounding that entire scene (production, distribution, sales) have more of an effect on gun related deaths then just the simple fact of guns being here. There are so many factors that lead towards problems like what has happened and it would be extremely ignorant to just look at one simple thing and assume that it is the only reason. People are complicated things, and when one goes off the hook and starts killing innocent people at random there is more going on there then just him being able to get a gun. Most of the people who own guns and are legally registered are just normal people. As much as people love to stereotype every gun owner as some red neck hillbilly who dropped out of high school it's not true, and certainly doesn't make their arguments look any better. See above. The drug trade is pretty prevalent in Mexico too but you don't see their homicide rates as high as ours. Also, as I've said earlier in this thread: most criminals who kill with guns are considered law-abiding citizens until the moment of the crime anyway. | ||
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hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
On August 01 2012 03:34 wherebugsgo wrote: So to anyone who is against stricter gun control in the United States: What explains the much higher incidence of firearm-related homicide in the United States than in other developed countries, if not the proliferation of the guns themselves? (and by much higher, it's much higher on at least one order of magnitude per capita in most cases) Inequality. Poor distribution of wealth. Poor education for a larger number of individuals when compared to other developed countries. | ||
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Aeroplaneoverthesea
United Kingdom1977 Posts
On August 01 2012 03:42 Esk23 wrote: A lot of it is gang related shootings and some of it is caused by illegal alien gangs that shouldn't be here to begin with. It's simply a representation of the kinds of criminals we have here. It can't be argued that there is more gun related incidents here than other developed countries, but if you look at just overall crime statistics US is behind some other countries in that regard: # 1 Dominica: 113.822 per 1,000 people # 2 New Zealand: 105.881 per 1,000 people # 3 Finland: 101.526 per 1,000 people # 4 Denmark: 92.8277 per 1,000 people # 5 Chile: 88.226 per 1,000 people # 6 United Kingdom: 85.5517 per 1,000 people # 7 Montserrat: 80.3982 per 1,000 people # 8 United States: 80.0645 per 1,000 people # 9 Netherlands: 79.5779 per 1,000 people # 10 South Africa: 77.1862 per 1,000 people # 11 Germany: 75.9996 per 1,000 people # 12 Canada: 75.4921 per 1,000 people # 13 Norway: 71.8639 per 1,000 people # 14 France: 62.1843 per 1,000 people # 15 Seychelles: 52.9265 per 1,000 people http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/vc_majorthefts/gangs/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting Have fun explaining that. | ||
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Agathon
France1505 Posts
On August 01 2012 03:34 wherebugsgo wrote: So to anyone who is against stricter gun control in the United States: What explains the much higher incidence of firearm-related homicide in the United States than in other developed countries, if not the proliferation of the guns themselves? (and by much higher, it's much higher on at least one order of magnitude per capita in most cases) They will repeat the usual NRA's argument : "USA has a violent past." Like if Europe had a peacefull and lovely one ^^ It makes me laugh all the time :D | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On August 01 2012 19:06 hzflank wrote: Inequality. Poor distribution of wealth. Poor education for a larger number of individuals when compared to other developed countries. You could name a dozen different countries that have worse statistics in all of the areas you mentioned and yet still would have lower homicide rates than the United States. I gave Mexico as an example already (and it's a country of comparable size and geographic location) Sure, all of these things contribute to an inflated homicide rate. However, I don't think it's conclusive when you can point to dozens of other countries that are worse off in all of these areas and yet better off in terms of violent crime. For comparison if you ignored the firearm related homicides the homicide rate in the U.S. would be 40% of what it is currently, and on par with Canada's. (obviously some of those homicides would probably still occur and the 40% number is likely useless since the situation is hypothetical and unrealistic, but still.) On August 01 2012 19:12 Agathon wrote: They will repeat the usual NRA's argument : "USA has a violent past." Like if Europe had a peacefull and lovely one ^^ It makes me laugh all the time :D hahaha indeed. I would laugh, but sadly I live in this country and it's often difficult to understand how people can believe such things. | ||
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schmutttt
Australia3856 Posts
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Snotling
Germany885 Posts
On August 01 2012 19:06 hzflank wrote: Inequality. Poor distribution of wealth. Poor education for a larger number of individuals when compared to other developed countries. then fix that first. Happy, wealthy, not frightened, educated people will have a lot less need for guns i think. | ||
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hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
I am all for gun control but I do not think that gun control will prevent murder. Gun control might prevent manslaughter or suicide, but to prevent murder you need to remove the willingness and desire to kill and not just remove the weapons. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On August 01 2012 19:20 hzflank wrote: Neither you nor I want to kill anyone. It would take something extreme to make us homicidal. In such extreme circumstances would the lack of accessible firearms stop you? I am all for gun control but I do not think that gun control will prevent murder. Gun control might prevent manslaughter or suicide, but to prevent murder you need to remove the willingness and desire to kill and not just remove the weapons. you can't kill 12 people and injure 58 others if you don't have access to a gun. (and before someone says it, explosives are much harder to obtain and use) The reason you don't see mass shootings in European countries as often? Shocker, most of them have stricter gun laws. e: also, I'd argue the opposite. Gun control can't stop suicide (it's much easier to hang yourself or jump off a bridge than kill someone else) and that's backed by statistics. It can certainly reduce both the severity and incidence of violent crime and that too is backed by statistics. | ||
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hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
I have no background in chemistry yet I could still manufacture a small bomb if I wanted to. In the UK, we have less gun crime because we have less guns. But we have a lot of knife crime instead. People who want to kill will use what weapons are available to them. | ||
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Waterflow
Sweden1550 Posts
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Aeroplaneoverthesea
United Kingdom1977 Posts
On August 01 2012 19:36 hzflank wrote: I disagree. I think that if a person wants to commit mass murder then they will find a way to do so. Making explosives is harder than buying guns, but if you are planning to commit mass murder then you will be willing to put in the effort to make explosives. I have no background in chemistry yet I could still manufacture a small bomb if I wanted to. In the UK, we have less gun crime because we have less guns. But we have a lot of knife crime instead. People who want to kill will use what weapons are available to them. Such a poorly thought out and ridiculous opinion. If I want to make explosive it takes time, research and planning and a lot of skill to actually use effectively. Buying a gun in the US (or better yet using the one I already own or my parents) does not take those things. Murdering 10s of people in a school shooting style rampage with a knife is logistically impossible. It's also far easier mentally to shoot someone that it is to stab them to death and a person is far more likely to survive a knife attack (or fight off their attacker) than they are if someone uses a gun. All in all it's just far more difficult logistically, mentally and physically to do something like Columbine, Virginia Tech or the Batman Cinema shooting without ready and easy access the firearms. The same could also be said of countless other heat or the moment killings where in the UK a dispute would lead to a fistfight in the US they lead to someone getting shot because people have guns right there and then. Embarrassing that this is coming from a UK resident. | ||
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stevarius
United States1394 Posts
On August 01 2012 19:45 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote: Such a poorly thought out and ridiculous opinion. If I want to make explosive it takes time, research and planning and a lot of skill to actually use effectively. Buying a gun in the US (or better yet using the one I already own or my parents) does not take those things. Murdering 10s of people in a school shooting style rampage with a knife is logistically impossible. It's also far easier mentally to shoot someone that it is to stab them to death and a person is far more likely to survive a knife attack (or fight off their attacker) than they are if someone uses a gun. All in all it's just far more difficult logistically, mentally and physically to do something like Columbine, Virginia Tech or the Batman Cinema shooting without ready and easy access the firearms. The same could also be said of countless other heat or the moment killings where in the UK a dispute would lead to a fistfight in the US they lead to someone getting shot because people have guns right there and then. Embarrassing that this is coming from a UK resident. It's not an opinion, it's a fact. If someone is determined to do something and they have the willpower, they will achieve it regardless of what they have access to that would potentially make it easier. At most, you'd be buying a little bit of time. | ||
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