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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On July 22 2012 14:39 Little Rage Box wrote:
What place is it of your to determine whether or not a man can place his life in danger? If someone wants to place themselves in harms way to make a stand agianst a tyranical government you would say that person is a hero. But if they chose to take a stand a common theif its foolish?
Tyranny comes in many forms, it is not the place of any man to tell another where he should take his stand.
alright, this is the last time i'll derail with as little content as i usually submit to a general discussion like this.
Ironsights has said that it was a situation involving him & his friend.
i'm not going to pretend that i know this friend's mindset as it was all happening, and i am no law enforcer, but you are not only gambling with your own well-being, but with your colleague's as well.
unless you're able to weigh in immense experience along with all your smallest observations (a massive understatement as is), you can't objectively say that you and your friend are going to come out unscathed (opinion, obviously). i only call it a gamble if it's an uncertain outcome.
to some of us--the viewers and posters on TL--it's (once again) more foolish than cowardly to play with your and your friend's pieces in a mugging incident where their goal is your immediate possessions.
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On July 22 2012 13:15 Myrddraal wrote:Would you stop repeating this dribble?
This is not dribble, if you can't see this, then you must be blind.
Michael Jordan would sometimes drivel as he dribbled!
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On July 22 2012 14:30 Little Rage Box wrote:
People who rage over how American armed forces don't give our prisoners of war rights granted under our Constitution. Only garunteed to American citizens might I add.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Geneva_Convention
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Do American's fight off criminals with their own guns in the street or random violent encounters? Can they carry weapons everywhere / is this common?
I would have thought this was quite rare. Depending on whether or not it is would probably have quite a bearing on whether limiting gun access to the general public in America would be good.
Less guns in theory are always better, or at least less of some kinds of guns.
Each country can do what it wants though. It is quite a minor issue overall.
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On July 22 2012 14:36 Heweree wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 14:30 Little Rage Box wrote:
I think it's both funny and ironic that the majority of people in these types of threads clamoring for "no more guns" are European. People of some of the most historically savage and violent countries on this planet. People who have decended from ancestors who were oppressed, yet rose up, and threw off those shackles. Almost singuraly through violent means (save from the Russians being destroy by their own system).
People who, for an America, can be termed nothing short of liberal, which where I come from has been given to mean people of "tolerance" and "diversity" are so wholely Intolerant of something they don't like.
Its troubling to me really that people exist in such numbers, and are so vocal, about the rights of everyone. Except that one...oh and that one too, we don't like that one either. Wait a second, you don't really need that, or this over here... thats not needed either.
People who rage over how American armed forces don't give our prisoners of war rights granted under our Constitution. Only garunteed to American citizens might I add.
It amazes me how two faced these people are, that you deserve your rights until we don't think there right, or until they don't suit us anymore. Why don't you just climb back into that shit hole called Europe and leave us to take care of ourselves. We've been doing it just fine for over 200 years, fine enough in fact to clean up all of your messes as well. A commonly dismissed fact.
The day will come when you will wish for your gun, for the ability to defend the place you call home, the people you love, and your own life. And we'll be there to clean up the mess.
Speaking of which, aren't yall about 20 years overdue for all out war in Europe? We are debating whether strict or lax gun control policy benefits a society. It's every society's debate. It turns a lot around the US because it's an hot subject there and it's one of the only (the only one?) developed country with such policy but that's it. I wouldn't have dared to call the US a shithole, neither insult Americans. And for the random historical bullshit you threw in your post I forgive you.
Gun regulation can be a hot topic because it is very fluid and differs between states. Many people have different opinions as to how much red tape there should be, so it gets talked about a lot. If your idea of strict gun control policy is the European model, then there is really no debate or controversy. The US has pretty much soundly rejected the idea of banning guns from citizentry, which is why 90 percent of the anti-gun folks in this thread are Euro's yelling at American's that there doing it wrong.
Also, I love how you ignored the per capita gun statistics of Canada vs. US that were posted earlier, claiming that it was only all the farmers who were owning guns in Canada. Guess who owns the most guns in the US? Farmers and people who live in rural areas with plenty of room to get out and shoot them. The US has always been a violent country and violence is pretty ingrained in a lot of American culture. There are many comparisons that can be made between US states and countries that show that the concentration of guns does not necessarily correlate with violence and murder. Would you advocate stricter gun laws for Vermont (they have extremely lax gun laws) even though they have some of the lowest levels of violence and murder in the US? Why?
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On July 22 2012 14:23 Heweree wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 14:18 heliusx wrote:On July 22 2012 14:15 Heweree wrote:On July 22 2012 14:10 whatevername wrote:On July 22 2012 12:01 Sjokola wrote:On July 22 2012 11:50 whatevername wrote:On July 22 2012 11:39 Defacer wrote:On July 22 2012 11:36 heliusx wrote:On July 22 2012 11:34 Sjokola wrote:On July 22 2012 11:28 heliusx wrote:
[quote]
Well since you've gotten it all figured out all we need is a time machine. Hmmm
 That seems like a good way to end this for me tonight. Me admitting I don't know how life is in the US and that it might have been different, but the status quo (spiral) probably can't be broken. Im not saying that it can't. I'm saying I personally don't know how. And until someone solves it I'm protecting my life with a firearm. Honestly, based on some posters' rampant insistence that gun regulation would actually make their country LESS safe, I can only assume that America is a terrifying place to live. You realize Canada has [by some stats] more guns per capita than the states? If your assuming the amount of guns has a correlation with violence [demonstrably false, in fact the more guns you have typically the more prosperous and free the country is] than Canada should basically be on par. In REALITY, you know the thing outside your liberal delusions, guns are self evidently a means of self defense for the physically weak and innocent, and so yes, a terrifying location or a tranquil one, an armed population is safer. Do you perhaps have a scource for this? Because Yemen doesn't seem safe and has the most guns per capita. And by that logic most European countries should be less safe than the US or thrird world countries. Edit: it seems like a weird thing to say that Germany effectively doesn't have free speech http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1090441 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_countryNote: Canada's official gun figures are taken from the Government which specifically takes the low target in estimations, the high target has as having more guns per capita than the states, middle of the ground basically identical. I never understood these stats, I lived most of my life in France and don't know anyone who owns a gun. I'm pretty sure the 31% comes from the 5% of farmers who own multiple hunting firearms. But it's far from 31% of the population owning gun, very very far. It clearly states guns per capita. As in there are 31 guns per 100 persons. It's not 31% of people have guns. Yeah, that's why i dont understand the relevance of those stats. If a hunter has 20 hunting guns in his hut and if 20 different people have an assault weapon it's not the same threat for society but still counted the same way in these stats. The average hunter will not have twenty guns. He might have 5, gun collectors and others are outliers. Though, yes, the amount of actual individuals with a gun are far lower.
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Zurich15365 Posts
On July 22 2012 12:01 whatevername wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 11:56 Shantastic wrote:On July 22 2012 11:33 whatevername wrote:On July 22 2012 11:13 Shantastic wrote:On July 22 2012 11:00 whatevername wrote:On July 22 2012 10:50 Defacer wrote:On July 22 2012 09:55 cLutZ wrote:
No, regulation of guns defeats the entire purpose of gun freedom. We should abolish all standards for car manufacturing and operation as well. Driver licences are a joke. And if I want to drive around in a bullet-proof monster truck with tinted windows, I should be able to goddamnnit. THIS IS AMERICUHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! Yes, we should abolish car manufacturing standards. Yes, yes I know due to your infantalized nanny culture the idea of liberty and free choice frightens the shit out of you, but in reality its actually a quite wonderful and positive experience, for the human spirit as well as material comfort. We allow the execution of minors, but deny basic marital rights to gay couples. We exert control over nearby territories and deny their citizens the right to vote in our elections. We've lost the right to preach about liberty. When we start using guns as responsibly as Canadians, I'll support gun laws as lax as Canada's. Thats utterly retarded. If we act counter to liberty, the genuine liberals of our country cant possible encourage we change our ways! What? Your literally encouraging we dont reform. I advise you reconsider your tone. I was saying that per your statement, "due to your infantalized nanny culture the idea of liberty and free choice frightens the shit out of you," you clearly have no understanding of any country existing outside of our borders if you don't realize that America has one of the worst track records with civil liberties and human rights in the 21st century. We join Somalia--that's right, SOMALIA--as the only non-signatory to the UN convention banning the execution of children. We spy on, detain, and order assassinations on our own citizens without warrant or trial. We prevent couples from reaping the same marital benefits as everyone else because Leviticus tells us we shouldn't. We've lost the privilege of calling other countries "infantalized [sic]" when they think we're allowing a freedom we shouldn't be. I'm not even American, and you have no understanding of countries outside your own border if you think that isnt a near universal trait in the west. Britain doesnt have gay marriage, France doesnt, italy...a majority of western European countries dont have gay marriage. Further, they too spy on their citizens and are increasingly passing draconian laws [my country Canada has gone right up that alley lock and step with your own], hell Germany basically has no conception of free speech, and to quote a leading Canadian liberal mp "Free speech is an American value" we dont really either. The difference between the abuse of civil liberties in the states and elsewhere is that there is opposition to it in the states.
As a proud German citizen I find this level of ignorance insulting.
Article 5 of the German constitution:
(1) Every person shall have the right freely to express and disseminate his opinions in speech, writing, and pictures and to inform himself without hindrance from generally accessible sources. Freedom of the press and freedom of reporting by means of broadcasts and films shall be guaranteed. There shall be no censorship.
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I have a few questions for the state-side posters here, and am genuinely interested in their opinions. A lot of the conversations have derailed in extreme arguments, from making guns illegal to the importance of guns in a doomsday-like scenario.
Bear in mind that even the incident in Colorado that has lead to this debate is an outlier. It kind of renders arguments like "If only someone else in that movie theatre had a gun ... " a little ridiculous, because there is nothing typical or normal about a homicidal, deranged maniac shooting up a movie theatre in Denver.
It's like saying, "If only one of the teachers/students at Columbine had a gun ... ."
Anyway,
Do you feel the gun laws in your state are sufficient?
Do think requiring someone to have a permit or licence to purchase or bear a gun would impair law-abiding citizens from acquiring guns or their freedom to protect themselves with guns?
Do you feel that there should be different or higher standards for purchasing and operating different classes of guns, like semi-automatic assault rifles?
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On July 22 2012 16:50 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 12:01 whatevername wrote:On July 22 2012 11:56 Shantastic wrote:On July 22 2012 11:33 whatevername wrote:On July 22 2012 11:13 Shantastic wrote:On July 22 2012 11:00 whatevername wrote:On July 22 2012 10:50 Defacer wrote:On July 22 2012 09:55 cLutZ wrote:
No, regulation of guns defeats the entire purpose of gun freedom. We should abolish all standards for car manufacturing and operation as well. Driver licences are a joke. And if I want to drive around in a bullet-proof monster truck with tinted windows, I should be able to goddamnnit. THIS IS AMERICUHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! Yes, we should abolish car manufacturing standards. Yes, yes I know due to your infantalized nanny culture the idea of liberty and free choice frightens the shit out of you, but in reality its actually a quite wonderful and positive experience, for the human spirit as well as material comfort. We allow the execution of minors, but deny basic marital rights to gay couples. We exert control over nearby territories and deny their citizens the right to vote in our elections. We've lost the right to preach about liberty. When we start using guns as responsibly as Canadians, I'll support gun laws as lax as Canada's. Thats utterly retarded. If we act counter to liberty, the genuine liberals of our country cant possible encourage we change our ways! What? Your literally encouraging we dont reform. I advise you reconsider your tone. I was saying that per your statement, "due to your infantalized nanny culture the idea of liberty and free choice frightens the shit out of you," you clearly have no understanding of any country existing outside of our borders if you don't realize that America has one of the worst track records with civil liberties and human rights in the 21st century. We join Somalia--that's right, SOMALIA--as the only non-signatory to the UN convention banning the execution of children. We spy on, detain, and order assassinations on our own citizens without warrant or trial. We prevent couples from reaping the same marital benefits as everyone else because Leviticus tells us we shouldn't. We've lost the privilege of calling other countries "infantalized [sic]" when they think we're allowing a freedom we shouldn't be. I'm not even American, and you have no understanding of countries outside your own border if you think that isnt a near universal trait in the west. Britain doesnt have gay marriage, France doesnt, italy...a majority of western European countries dont have gay marriage. Further, they too spy on their citizens and are increasingly passing draconian laws [my country Canada has gone right up that alley lock and step with your own], hell Germany basically has no conception of free speech, and to quote a leading Canadian liberal mp "Free speech is an American value" we dont really either. The difference between the abuse of civil liberties in the states and elsewhere is that there is opposition to it in the states. As a proud German citizen I find this level of ignorance insulting. Article 5 of the German constitution: (1) Every person shall have the right freely to express and disseminate his opinions in speech, writing, and pictures and to inform himself without hindrance from generally accessible sources. Freedom of the press and freedom of reporting by means of broadcasts and films shall be guaranteed. There shall be no censorship. Words on a paper. You go to jail if you deny the holocaust, you cant even have accurately coloured blood in a video game. Both blatant restrictions on freedom of speech and expression.
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On July 22 2012 17:15 whatevername wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 16:50 zatic wrote:On July 22 2012 12:01 whatevername wrote:On July 22 2012 11:56 Shantastic wrote:On July 22 2012 11:33 whatevername wrote:On July 22 2012 11:13 Shantastic wrote:On July 22 2012 11:00 whatevername wrote:On July 22 2012 10:50 Defacer wrote:On July 22 2012 09:55 cLutZ wrote:
No, regulation of guns defeats the entire purpose of gun freedom. We should abolish all standards for car manufacturing and operation as well. Driver licences are a joke. And if I want to drive around in a bullet-proof monster truck with tinted windows, I should be able to goddamnnit. THIS IS AMERICUHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! Yes, we should abolish car manufacturing standards. Yes, yes I know due to your infantalized nanny culture the idea of liberty and free choice frightens the shit out of you, but in reality its actually a quite wonderful and positive experience, for the human spirit as well as material comfort. We allow the execution of minors, but deny basic marital rights to gay couples. We exert control over nearby territories and deny their citizens the right to vote in our elections. We've lost the right to preach about liberty. When we start using guns as responsibly as Canadians, I'll support gun laws as lax as Canada's. Thats utterly retarded. If we act counter to liberty, the genuine liberals of our country cant possible encourage we change our ways! What? Your literally encouraging we dont reform. I advise you reconsider your tone. I was saying that per your statement, "due to your infantalized nanny culture the idea of liberty and free choice frightens the shit out of you," you clearly have no understanding of any country existing outside of our borders if you don't realize that America has one of the worst track records with civil liberties and human rights in the 21st century. We join Somalia--that's right, SOMALIA--as the only non-signatory to the UN convention banning the execution of children. We spy on, detain, and order assassinations on our own citizens without warrant or trial. We prevent couples from reaping the same marital benefits as everyone else because Leviticus tells us we shouldn't. We've lost the privilege of calling other countries "infantalized [sic]" when they think we're allowing a freedom we shouldn't be. I'm not even American, and you have no understanding of countries outside your own border if you think that isnt a near universal trait in the west. Britain doesnt have gay marriage, France doesnt, italy...a majority of western European countries dont have gay marriage. Further, they too spy on their citizens and are increasingly passing draconian laws [my country Canada has gone right up that alley lock and step with your own], hell Germany basically has no conception of free speech, and to quote a leading Canadian liberal mp "Free speech is an American value" we dont really either. The difference between the abuse of civil liberties in the states and elsewhere is that there is opposition to it in the states. As a proud German citizen I find this level of ignorance insulting. Article 5 of the German constitution: (1) Every person shall have the right freely to express and disseminate his opinions in speech, writing, and pictures and to inform himself without hindrance from generally accessible sources. Freedom of the press and freedom of reporting by means of broadcasts and films shall be guaranteed. There shall be no censorship. Words on a paper. You go to jail if you deny the holocaust, you cant even have accurately coloured blood in a video game. Both blatant restrictions on freedom of speech and expression.
By your definition, the American constitution is also "words on a paper". How can you support the constitutional argument for possession of firearms in the US while at the same time dismissing the constitutions of other countries? It doesn't really make sense.
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Zurich15365 Posts
On July 22 2012 17:15 whatevername wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 16:50 zatic wrote:On July 22 2012 12:01 whatevername wrote:On July 22 2012 11:56 Shantastic wrote:On July 22 2012 11:33 whatevername wrote:On July 22 2012 11:13 Shantastic wrote:On July 22 2012 11:00 whatevername wrote:On July 22 2012 10:50 Defacer wrote:On July 22 2012 09:55 cLutZ wrote:
No, regulation of guns defeats the entire purpose of gun freedom. We should abolish all standards for car manufacturing and operation as well. Driver licences are a joke. And if I want to drive around in a bullet-proof monster truck with tinted windows, I should be able to goddamnnit. THIS IS AMERICUHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! Yes, we should abolish car manufacturing standards. Yes, yes I know due to your infantalized nanny culture the idea of liberty and free choice frightens the shit out of you, but in reality its actually a quite wonderful and positive experience, for the human spirit as well as material comfort. We allow the execution of minors, but deny basic marital rights to gay couples. We exert control over nearby territories and deny their citizens the right to vote in our elections. We've lost the right to preach about liberty. When we start using guns as responsibly as Canadians, I'll support gun laws as lax as Canada's. Thats utterly retarded. If we act counter to liberty, the genuine liberals of our country cant possible encourage we change our ways! What? Your literally encouraging we dont reform. I advise you reconsider your tone. I was saying that per your statement, "due to your infantalized nanny culture the idea of liberty and free choice frightens the shit out of you," you clearly have no understanding of any country existing outside of our borders if you don't realize that America has one of the worst track records with civil liberties and human rights in the 21st century. We join Somalia--that's right, SOMALIA--as the only non-signatory to the UN convention banning the execution of children. We spy on, detain, and order assassinations on our own citizens without warrant or trial. We prevent couples from reaping the same marital benefits as everyone else because Leviticus tells us we shouldn't. We've lost the privilege of calling other countries "infantalized [sic]" when they think we're allowing a freedom we shouldn't be. I'm not even American, and you have no understanding of countries outside your own border if you think that isnt a near universal trait in the west. Britain doesnt have gay marriage, France doesnt, italy...a majority of western European countries dont have gay marriage. Further, they too spy on their citizens and are increasingly passing draconian laws [my country Canada has gone right up that alley lock and step with your own], hell Germany basically has no conception of free speech, and to quote a leading Canadian liberal mp "Free speech is an American value" we dont really either. The difference between the abuse of civil liberties in the states and elsewhere is that there is opposition to it in the states. As a proud German citizen I find this level of ignorance insulting. Article 5 of the German constitution: (1) Every person shall have the right freely to express and disseminate his opinions in speech, writing, and pictures and to inform himself without hindrance from generally accessible sources. Freedom of the press and freedom of reporting by means of broadcasts and films shall be guaranteed. There shall be no censorship. Words on a paper. You go to jail if you deny the holocaust, you cant even have accurately coloured blood in a video game. Both blatant restrictions on freedom of speech and expression.
Denying the holocaust is illegal. Game publishers self censoring their games has nothing to do with free speech. It's their decision.
I don't see how that equates to "basically has no conception of free speech". Again, you should talk more carefully about things you evidently know very little about.
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On July 22 2012 17:23 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 17:15 whatevername wrote:On July 22 2012 16:50 zatic wrote:On July 22 2012 12:01 whatevername wrote:On July 22 2012 11:56 Shantastic wrote:On July 22 2012 11:33 whatevername wrote:On July 22 2012 11:13 Shantastic wrote:On July 22 2012 11:00 whatevername wrote:On July 22 2012 10:50 Defacer wrote:On July 22 2012 09:55 cLutZ wrote:
No, regulation of guns defeats the entire purpose of gun freedom. We should abolish all standards for car manufacturing and operation as well. Driver licences are a joke. And if I want to drive around in a bullet-proof monster truck with tinted windows, I should be able to goddamnnit. THIS IS AMERICUHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! Yes, we should abolish car manufacturing standards. Yes, yes I know due to your infantalized nanny culture the idea of liberty and free choice frightens the shit out of you, but in reality its actually a quite wonderful and positive experience, for the human spirit as well as material comfort. We allow the execution of minors, but deny basic marital rights to gay couples. We exert control over nearby territories and deny their citizens the right to vote in our elections. We've lost the right to preach about liberty. When we start using guns as responsibly as Canadians, I'll support gun laws as lax as Canada's. Thats utterly retarded. If we act counter to liberty, the genuine liberals of our country cant possible encourage we change our ways! What? Your literally encouraging we dont reform. I advise you reconsider your tone. I was saying that per your statement, "due to your infantalized nanny culture the idea of liberty and free choice frightens the shit out of you," you clearly have no understanding of any country existing outside of our borders if you don't realize that America has one of the worst track records with civil liberties and human rights in the 21st century. We join Somalia--that's right, SOMALIA--as the only non-signatory to the UN convention banning the execution of children. We spy on, detain, and order assassinations on our own citizens without warrant or trial. We prevent couples from reaping the same marital benefits as everyone else because Leviticus tells us we shouldn't. We've lost the privilege of calling other countries "infantalized [sic]" when they think we're allowing a freedom we shouldn't be. I'm not even American, and you have no understanding of countries outside your own border if you think that isnt a near universal trait in the west. Britain doesnt have gay marriage, France doesnt, italy...a majority of western European countries dont have gay marriage. Further, they too spy on their citizens and are increasingly passing draconian laws [my country Canada has gone right up that alley lock and step with your own], hell Germany basically has no conception of free speech, and to quote a leading Canadian liberal mp "Free speech is an American value" we dont really either. The difference between the abuse of civil liberties in the states and elsewhere is that there is opposition to it in the states. As a proud German citizen I find this level of ignorance insulting. Article 5 of the German constitution: (1) Every person shall have the right freely to express and disseminate his opinions in speech, writing, and pictures and to inform himself without hindrance from generally accessible sources. Freedom of the press and freedom of reporting by means of broadcasts and films shall be guaranteed. There shall be no censorship. Words on a paper. You go to jail if you deny the holocaust, you cant even have accurately coloured blood in a video game. Both blatant restrictions on freedom of speech and expression. Denying the holocaust is illegal. Game publishers self censoring their games has nothing to do with free speech. It's their decision. I don't see how that equates to "basically has no conception of free speech". Again, you should talk more carefully about things you evidently know very little about.
While I hate the idea of denying the holocaust, wouldn't making it illegal to deny it be a violation of your constitution? How would a law supercede the constitution?
I'm asking because I honestly don't understand.
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actually the holocoust thing might change in the near future.
on a side note - in america they dont have a conception of free speech.
you can be punished (criminal law) for defamation in 17 states. (source : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_defamation_law)
their constitution are just words on paper...
seriously tho,if you hate on a country for having stricter laws ,do at least
some research
edit :
actually on topic.
the right to bear arms is killing more people than it saves
-> i dont like it but i dont care how the US handles it.
there is so many differences between them and europe..
edit 2 :
chose the US since they are the only country i dont really understand at all
why this right still exists.
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On July 22 2012 17:28 Caryc wrote:on a side note - in america they dont have a conception of free speech. you can be punished (criminal law) for defamation in 17 states. (source : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_defamation_law)their constitution are just words on paper... seriously tho,if you hate on a country for having stricter laws ,do at least some research
I just wanted to post this.
"The United Nations Commission on Human Rights ruled in 2012 that the criminalization of libel violates Freedom of expression", still freedom of expression is part of the US constitution.
Just because a right is granted in the constitution doesn't mean it supersedes everything else, that's true for all countries, even the US.
There is freedom of expression in Germany, and yet there are limits to it. One could even argue that denying the holocaust constitutes libel.
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Zurich15365 Posts
On July 22 2012 17:26 Saryph wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 17:23 zatic wrote:On July 22 2012 17:15 whatevername wrote:On July 22 2012 16:50 zatic wrote:On July 22 2012 12:01 whatevername wrote:On July 22 2012 11:56 Shantastic wrote:On July 22 2012 11:33 whatevername wrote:On July 22 2012 11:13 Shantastic wrote:On July 22 2012 11:00 whatevername wrote:On July 22 2012 10:50 Defacer wrote:
[quote]
We should abolish all standards for car manufacturing and operation as well. Driver licences are a joke. And if I want to drive around in a bullet-proof monster truck with tinted windows, I should be able to goddamnnit.
THIS IS AMERICUHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! Yes, we should abolish car manufacturing standards. Yes, yes I know due to your infantalized nanny culture the idea of liberty and free choice frightens the shit out of you, but in reality its actually a quite wonderful and positive experience, for the human spirit as well as material comfort. We allow the execution of minors, but deny basic marital rights to gay couples. We exert control over nearby territories and deny their citizens the right to vote in our elections. We've lost the right to preach about liberty. When we start using guns as responsibly as Canadians, I'll support gun laws as lax as Canada's. Thats utterly retarded. If we act counter to liberty, the genuine liberals of our country cant possible encourage we change our ways! What? Your literally encouraging we dont reform. I advise you reconsider your tone. I was saying that per your statement, "due to your infantalized nanny culture the idea of liberty and free choice frightens the shit out of you," you clearly have no understanding of any country existing outside of our borders if you don't realize that America has one of the worst track records with civil liberties and human rights in the 21st century. We join Somalia--that's right, SOMALIA--as the only non-signatory to the UN convention banning the execution of children. We spy on, detain, and order assassinations on our own citizens without warrant or trial. We prevent couples from reaping the same marital benefits as everyone else because Leviticus tells us we shouldn't. We've lost the privilege of calling other countries "infantalized [sic]" when they think we're allowing a freedom we shouldn't be. I'm not even American, and you have no understanding of countries outside your own border if you think that isnt a near universal trait in the west. Britain doesnt have gay marriage, France doesnt, italy...a majority of western European countries dont have gay marriage. Further, they too spy on their citizens and are increasingly passing draconian laws [my country Canada has gone right up that alley lock and step with your own], hell Germany basically has no conception of free speech, and to quote a leading Canadian liberal mp "Free speech is an American value" we dont really either. The difference between the abuse of civil liberties in the states and elsewhere is that there is opposition to it in the states. As a proud German citizen I find this level of ignorance insulting. Article 5 of the German constitution: (1) Every person shall have the right freely to express and disseminate his opinions in speech, writing, and pictures and to inform himself without hindrance from generally accessible sources. Freedom of the press and freedom of reporting by means of broadcasts and films shall be guaranteed. There shall be no censorship. Words on a paper. You go to jail if you deny the holocaust, you cant even have accurately coloured blood in a video game. Both blatant restrictions on freedom of speech and expression. Denying the holocaust is illegal. Game publishers self censoring their games has nothing to do with free speech. It's their decision. I don't see how that equates to "basically has no conception of free speech". Again, you should talk more carefully about things you evidently know very little about. While I hate the idea of denying the holocaust, wouldn't making it illegal to deny it be a violation of your constitution? How would a law supercede the constitution? I'm asking because I honestly don't understand.
General law cannot supersede the constitution. Basically in the case where two constitutional rights collide, general law can define which weights heavier.
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Here in Sweden it's a big deal if somebody is shot to death with a gun. And in many cases of robbery and other illegal stuff the "guns" that criminals use often prove to be either real weapon look-alike Air guns or just plain replicas. So I would never vote yes on the idea to let people own and bear arms.
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On July 22 2012 17:44 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 17:26 Saryph wrote:On July 22 2012 17:23 zatic wrote:On July 22 2012 17:15 whatevername wrote:On July 22 2012 16:50 zatic wrote:On July 22 2012 12:01 whatevername wrote:On July 22 2012 11:56 Shantastic wrote:On July 22 2012 11:33 whatevername wrote:On July 22 2012 11:13 Shantastic wrote:On July 22 2012 11:00 whatevername wrote:
[quote]
Yes, we should abolish car manufacturing standards. Yes, yes I know due to your infantalized nanny culture the idea of liberty and free choice frightens the shit out of you, but in reality its actually a quite wonderful and positive experience, for the human spirit as well as material comfort.
We allow the execution of minors, but deny basic marital rights to gay couples. We exert control over nearby territories and deny their citizens the right to vote in our elections. We've lost the right to preach about liberty. When we start using guns as responsibly as Canadians, I'll support gun laws as lax as Canada's. Thats utterly retarded. If we act counter to liberty, the genuine liberals of our country cant possible encourage we change our ways! What? Your literally encouraging we dont reform. I advise you reconsider your tone. I was saying that per your statement, "due to your infantalized nanny culture the idea of liberty and free choice frightens the shit out of you," you clearly have no understanding of any country existing outside of our borders if you don't realize that America has one of the worst track records with civil liberties and human rights in the 21st century. We join Somalia--that's right, SOMALIA--as the only non-signatory to the UN convention banning the execution of children. We spy on, detain, and order assassinations on our own citizens without warrant or trial. We prevent couples from reaping the same marital benefits as everyone else because Leviticus tells us we shouldn't. We've lost the privilege of calling other countries "infantalized [sic]" when they think we're allowing a freedom we shouldn't be. I'm not even American, and you have no understanding of countries outside your own border if you think that isnt a near universal trait in the west. Britain doesnt have gay marriage, France doesnt, italy...a majority of western European countries dont have gay marriage. Further, they too spy on their citizens and are increasingly passing draconian laws [my country Canada has gone right up that alley lock and step with your own], hell Germany basically has no conception of free speech, and to quote a leading Canadian liberal mp "Free speech is an American value" we dont really either. The difference between the abuse of civil liberties in the states and elsewhere is that there is opposition to it in the states. As a proud German citizen I find this level of ignorance insulting. Article 5 of the German constitution: (1) Every person shall have the right freely to express and disseminate his opinions in speech, writing, and pictures and to inform himself without hindrance from generally accessible sources. Freedom of the press and freedom of reporting by means of broadcasts and films shall be guaranteed. There shall be no censorship. Words on a paper. You go to jail if you deny the holocaust, you cant even have accurately coloured blood in a video game. Both blatant restrictions on freedom of speech and expression. Denying the holocaust is illegal. Game publishers self censoring their games has nothing to do with free speech. It's their decision. I don't see how that equates to "basically has no conception of free speech". Again, you should talk more carefully about things you evidently know very little about. While I hate the idea of denying the holocaust, wouldn't making it illegal to deny it be a violation of your constitution? How would a law supercede the constitution? I'm asking because I honestly don't understand. General law cannot supersede the constitution. Basically in the case where two constitutional rights collide, general law can define which weights heavier.
A constitution is only worth the deference you give to it.
^^ true story
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EPT
