Note that everything I say only applies to fiction; I very rarely read e-book versions of textbooks, etc, the exception being programming stuff, a lot of which is free anyway.
I both pirate tons of books and buy tons of books (sometimes two copies, physical and digital - a lot of this though is for 'legacy' series I've been collecting, I tend to read digital over physical). The Amazon Kindle storefront is so incredibly convenient that I sometimes will go to pirate and book and just buy it anyway because it's simpler. Also, nothing beats midnight delivery...
I would probably buy everything if I could afford to, but I simply find myself reading too much that my budget wouldn't keep up. Shitty excuse, but that's just the way things are.
I also believe there needs to be a system to allow you to have free eBook copies of books you already own. I have lots of books I'd love to have on an eReader, that I already own as actual books, I'll be damned if I'm paying for them again, when all they've done is upload the master copy from a computer onto an online source. Hence why I haven't bought an eReader yet. (Also waiting for kindle to drop a little more.. )
I've pirated tons of books that I already owned prior to getting a Kindle. I already paid for them, I don't plan on getting rid of the physical copies (I love having bookshelves actually filled with books!), so I don't see a problem with having a digital copy to read elsewhere.
edit: Forgot something. Amazon (and I believe Barnes & Noble) are both partnering with libraries to offer e-book lending. Perfectly legal alternative to pirating; check it out if your local library is a partner. I believe this is USA only for now though.
On January 12 2012 23:36 SolHeiM wrote: Piracy is not the same as stealing, because when you steal a physical object from a store, that's a lost sale. The store has ordered something, and because one item was stolen from their store, they have lost one sale.
Piracy is not a lost sale, because it's a digital copy of something I wouldn't have bought anyway. The only reason I download it is because it's free. I wouldn't be buying anyway.
That is my justification for pirating books, music games and movies.
^ I'll agree with that too in all honesty. I sure as hell wouldn't have paid for most of the games on my computer if that's a good example. I mean half of them are barely worth a few dollars as it is.
Currently E-books leave a lot to be desired in terms of formatting, usability (i.e. notation), and also pagination. This is obviously set to change and improve. I'm also dyslexic and find reader text incredibly hard to follow.
I'm adverse to overly sentimental attitudes to the materiality of a book being fundamental to the reading experience but am equally resistant to people that read paper books being referred to as luddites.
The major obstacle to a complete move over to e-books will be copyright because precisely of the OPs actions. The most labour expensive texts, chiefly academic texts will likely be very slow to make a complete transition simply because they sell so few copies anyway. Going open access is admirable and there have been a number of successes however transition into open access texts will be fraught with growing pains as authors struggle to find sufficient returns to balance the needs and labours exerted in creating these kinds of works (certainly when retaining credibility), if at least you believe what they say about market economies...
Obviously there are some very important material qualities that artistic text capitalise upon by being written on paper. This is a good thing. Conversely there are digital qualities that e-reader (or really tablet) authors can utilise for artistic effect.
The OP seems to be miss-informed about how 'free' library books are. The costs of texts are paid for publicly and the author receives recompense from the publisher (or more typically an advance).
Straying from your initial point slightly: I used to work for a University where the library was 95% digital and students had access to books on their e-readers. In theory this great - every student has a copy of the core text, no overdue books, no damage etc etc - however the reality was awful: publishers were very resistant to releasing e-books in a library format to students as they were effectively doing themselves out of sales, also technical faults routinely down prevent the whole system from functioning, as a result most students had no core texts for their first 1 and a half terms of study. Many were seeking legal action last time I heard, glad I left that amateurish organisation.
I’m pro-e-readers so long as they actually overcome all there short comings, the major issue is that the reader itself is very expensive (£89?) and would likely not be attainable by the poorest in our community.
On January 12 2012 23:36 SolHeiM wrote: Piracy is not the same as stealing, because when you steal a physical object from a store, that's a lost sale. The store has ordered something, and because one item was stolen from their store, they have lost one sale.
Piracy is not a lost sale, because it's a digital copy of something I wouldn't have bought anyway. The only reason I download it is because it's free. I wouldn't be buying anyway.
That is my justification for pirating books, music games and movies.
^ I'll agree with that too in all honesty. I sure as hell wouldn't have paid for most of the games on my computer if that's a good example. I mean half of them are barely worth a few dollars as it is.
Then why do you get to have them on your computer? You have used likely thousands of hours of peoples hard work without compensating them. You wouldn't have paid? Who cares, its not about lost sales, not for me anyway. Money is not everything. That is someones hard work, they have rights over there own work, you not paying for there work is just immoral.
Like music, i think the companies are taking the wrong attitude towards this. Its getting incredibly hard to police such areas of piracy online and putting too many resources into it just dosen't make sense.
Radiohead's stock rosed when they sold their album for any price online and they made lots of money through live concerts and performances, experiences which can never be pirated.
Similarly, any smart author should release their books free, and if their book is of any quality, would get recognized and be invited to speaks and book signings.
Need to focus on making revenue from stuff that cant be pirated. Not all people are screwed and some will pay even if the book is free.
I don't have a kindle but I use the app on my phone and laptop, and I'll probably get one soon enough - it's just a matter of which one. The original kindles are much easier on the eyes, but the fire would be perfect for any magazine subscriptions I get, and haven't we all wanted one of those tablet readers since we saw them in sci-fi when we were younger? Yay for teh futorz!
Arguing about the cost of books is, to me, a difficult one. The printing industry has operated for centuries on the same model - author writes a book, printers print it, bookshops sell it to you. Each part marks up the price, ending up in the price we pay at Barnes and Nobles or whatever. these eReaders are giving us reduced price books, but they're still a high price compared to what it should be. It's the same as the music industry - should we be paying so much for an electronic copy of something? They say yes, to keep it roughly on parity with a physical copy, but I wonder if that will continue much longer. We're already seeing people cutting out the publisher part of the process and selling directly through the Kindle store - more profits go straight to the author and we get a book for a few dollars. Maybe that's the way of the future - author pays for editing and proff-reading and that's it. They barely get paid anything for writing as it is, when you consider how much a book actually costs.
Personally I'll never completely give up books. A kindle is nice for convenience, I can see taking it on holiday or if I commute to work, but I still will be getting hard copies of the books I know I like.
I also can't say that books should be pirated or free - where is the incentive in having an author sacrifice a lot of time and effort towards making a good book, if he isn't going to be paid for his time? Being a professional author is a full-time job - if they give the books away for free then how do they feed themselves, or afford a house? The Radiohead model mentioned above is great, for musicians who are already established, internationally reknowned and have an established fan base. How can an author make a living this way?
I am a starving artist writer type... I've been writing since I was young, I'm 25 now and trying to make a real go as an author. That said, I fully expect if I ever get a book published it will be in electronic format because it's less risk for the publisher (cheaper i.e. needs to sell less copies to be profitable). That said I hope it gets out there, if people download it illegally, fine as long as they read it and enjoy it. If you really like it, but you wouldn't buy it no matter what, maybe you just telling someone else about it gets the sale (food on my table). I mean, it's like the reason piracy is legal in sweden (iirc), because people that pirate media aren't likely to buy it if that is the only means, they just wont consume the media, it doesn't actually lower sales; That said, if you really really like something you read (illegally) at least think about buying a legitimate copy to support the author, if not, oh well. Kind of like how you can choose to support your favorite streamers by subscribing. If the entertainment is worth it, buy it.
To be honest, i don't see e-Books on the rise compared to traditional ones. Things like Daily Newspaper get into huge trouble these times, because Internet always is faster, has the possibilty to update more recently and this part of written text is all about fast information and not about deep, well written text.
Just have a look of the success of traditional books over the last years. The Harry Potter Series or "The Swarm" by Frank Schätzing, just to name some randomly. It's not only about the content itself, it's also about... Design. Aesthetics. A Hardcover-Book in a book shelf always will transport a more "worthy" feeling than a file on a harddrive. Just like Vinyl compared to mp3. How often people said vinyl was dying? I don't see this happening, as long as there are people willing to pay for... Arts&Craft.
My sister got Amazon's kindle as a christmas present. She is into reading a lot. Even if kindle is designed to feel like a traditional book as much as possible (non reflecting screen, Characters based on Ink-Design), it will never feel the same. Imagine all the different situations where you want to have a good read, but not wanting to carry a tablet, laptop, eReader or whatever with you. At the beach, on holidays for example.
For all the things, that are about information/learning/science and stuff like that, it may become the standard to have them rather released in a digital way. But for Books that tell stories, that pull people into other universes, that make people laugh, cry, fear, love, hate... that make people stay up all night... no, sir. I have to disagree.
On January 13 2012 00:07 HotShizz wrote: I am a starving artist writer type... I've been writing since I was young, I'm 25 now and trying to make a real go as an author. That said, I fully expect if I ever get a book published it will be in electronic format because it's less risk for the publisher (cheaper i.e. needs to sell less copies to be profitable). That said I hope it gets out there, if people download it illegally, fine as long as they read it and enjoy it. If you really like it, but you wouldn't buy it no matter what, maybe you just telling someone else about it gets the sale (food on my table). I mean, it's like the reason piracy is legal in sweden (iirc), because people that pirate media aren't likely to buy it if that is the only means, they just wont consume the media, it doesn't actually lower sales; That said, if you really really like something you read (illegally) at least think about buying a legitimate copy to support the author, if not, oh well. Kind of like how you can choose to support your favorite streamers by subscribing. If the entertainment is worth it, buy it.
Ebook prices are simply ridiculous. I have a kindle so I can only buy from there, but 90% of the time I don't even consider buying them because of the price. There's simply no reason for them to be more expensive than actual books and yet they are. It's more or less the same reason I pirate games, I don't want to pay $60, and yet I will spend tons on games that are $30 and less because that's the price I value them at.
This is not a justification for piracy (there isn't one) but a rationalization of why I do it
Mark of a good thread, too many constructive replies for me to handle at once (: I took a firm stance (much more kopimist, one-sided, naieve and greedy than my own) and I'm very happy whith the replies, I've learned much more that way (:
I'll list quotes that stand out from the thread already (with replies):
Shickk "you don't have to own everything just because it's available somewhere"
Mobius_1 " read some excellent classics that are Public Domain, a lot of them shouldn't be missed"
vnlegend " If they go in the direction of Apple's iTunes store however, there's a good chance that more people will be willing to pay for quick access and better formatting." - do you mean consistent high quality, range and availablity, fixed but generally low price .... + DRM ? I have no exposure to the Amazon eBook market, or any other, I though that's already been somewhat implemented.
eshlow "I pretty much expect piracy as an inevitability, but I would like to think that those who do pirate would eventually support me in some way so I can continue to write about stuff people like to hear" - and if I like what you've written you're exactly the sort of person who I'd 'buy' from, as a sort of 'donation of thanks', and that I doubt (with all due respect) your works is readliy available for piracy.
Mindor " I have a bunch of books by my professors downloaded directly from sources they've given us. It's not out for everyone to see, certainly not findable with google, but they gave away books that are for sale at our university bookstore." - see I'm the kind of guy who keeps those forever, or keeps the University-provided software for 'just a little longer than my stay'. I'm compiling all the lecture notes + digital course materials I'm given access into nice archives, for my personal use later, oor if any of my friends want to do some recreational Pure Maths or Inorganic Chemistry (:
sirkyan "There is no chance in hell I would be able to read as fast as I do reading a hardcover or pocket, on a pc (or ipad, etc). The information doesn't stick in the same way. When I'm reading physics or math I need a physical copy. It doesn't matter the weight, nor cost." - For myself I plan getting that accustomed to reading eInk <:
IntoTheHeart "I only do it for authors who have passed away, or loan it from the library if the author is still alive." -interesting
SolHeiM "Piracy is not the same as stealing ... [explaination]" hypercube "Please don't call it stealing. It's not even illegal in many countries as long as you don't share it yourself." -Thank you for amending my ignorance of the nuance. I was also apt to throw around 'stealing' with 'legal' and had a bit of bait with 'morality'. If there are no immediate consequences or reprimands, 'stealing it' being illegal or not has no effect on my decsion. I know that's not your point, what I'm getting at is the decision should be influenced by how it affects the author, not by it being illegal in the law. Now we get into iffy territory, anyone feel free to tear my reasoning to shreds and purpousely misinterpret it, it's good for me.
On one hand, I know that printing and retailing physical copies only costs a few cents, so a digital copy will not be a lot cheaper. And that is coming from a german guy, since here book prices are fixed and shops are not allowed to sell books cheaper to keep the prices high. German books usually cost 2-3 times as much as the same one in english (however the print and paper quality are usually better as well). The fact that I have to pay the same money for something digital makes me feel a bit robbed. I don't know... If I could choose, I would always pick a CD over a music download for the same price. Only to rip the CD afterwards and to put it into the shelve. But it feels that I am getting more out of it. If I delete or lose the virtual copy there is always the physical one and vice versa. It's a nice backup concept. I also like books as a collectable and I like the feeling and smell of paper. Yet my Kindle 4 is incredible cool and comfortable to read on as well.
So why not give me a digital copy of every real book I buy? Or just sell digital copies (aka the usage rights to the book) for the same price with the option to take the physical copy for free if someone wants it?
On the other hand, I think that lending virtual copies from a state-owned library is the most silly thing I ever heard. It feels wrong on so many levels that there have to be complex DRM mechanisms to guarantee that a file is deleted after the lending period is over when you could just give everyone a copy without any effort or cost.
I don't know, but to me it feels that - even more than for music and movies - this debate shows so clearly that we need a drastic reform on copyright and knowledge sharing as a whole.
I have downloaded a lot of physics/maths/science books, although most of them are just rotting on my harddisk. Still its nice to "have my own library" when I need to find books about a new topic. Then I can get a feel about which books I like, and which I dont. If I just want to skim through the book once I use my pdf copy or go to the library and get it.
But when I really want to study a book deeply then I always go and buy it myself. However if I feel the price is inadequate, I try to get it alternatively. For example there are many classic physics text books which are still very relevant today, so there you can just go buy a cheap used book which is 20+ years old. Otherwise, if it is a real classic, there is often some kind of international/indian/chinese version around which costs about a quarter of the original...
The main thing that annoys me are the unfair devastatingly high prices that certain publishers demand for classic textbooks. For advanced electrodynamics, the book by J.D. Jackson is the classic, has been out since 1960 or something and probably paid for itself many many times. So basically the publisher only has to pay for printing, but that goddamn book costs still about 100$. I ended up buying it from amazon china for 10$+20$ shipping, which in itself is absurd...
For cutting edge scientific papers it gets even more ridiculous (the publishers dont even pay the authors but demand bucketloads of money from the readers...)
I have thought about getting a kindle dx in order to be able to read papers/pdfs on it, but I still value the peculiarities of paper/books a lot. Being able to skim quickly through a book, switch quickly between the pages, take notes/highlight stuff is just invaluable to me.
Wasn't there this study by the swiss government not long ago that showed that piracy doesn't have a bad influence on the money spent in said industry? The study most likely did not involve books and I see 1-2 reasons why this could be different (readings might not be in demand as much as concerts?) but it certainly does not has to be.
Synwave "If you don't pay publishers to produce books they minimize business and pay less authors. Hypertension "The real cost in the book is the author spending months writing the novel, and the publishing houses sifting through thousands of books/authors to find the good ones and market them. Gingerninja "cost nothing for the publisher to distribute except for maybe paying an editor to check over" Cabmium "The publisher takes a risk choosing a book to publish ... work with retailers" - See I hadn't though of the scale of writing a book, or also all the people who the money goes to. Quite naieve of me :/ There's a lot more people in the process than just the author. You need to select the good ones, professionally edit, market it, ditribute through retailers.... this is all financial risk taken, and these are all costs that are covered by buying a book.
Cabmium "You are paying for the work the author put in"
-First of all, domo arigato, thank you for your very well put and reasoned response, I've learned a lot and have been well taught, thank you. -the work- in itself justifies paying for it, that's enough, you're right.
Cabmium "Those who distribute books for free CHOOSE to do so because they are able. The authors decide whether to release their books for free, NOT you." -This is the big point. It's not in my power or right to decide "ok, I say your work isn't worth paying for, so give it to me for free".
Cabmium "[free worldwide learning, yaay!] This is really another topic, and you said you wanted to avoid this." -Really, THANK YOU for honouring my request (and reading the OP). Guys, I've gotta hand it to him, THIS is how you post REALLY WELL on an internet fourm, you honour me.
Cabmium "Also, books will never go away." -A time capsule of a USB key is about as 'permanant' of eBook storage as you can get IMO. No way that'll last 2000 years, nor have ancient Greek texts, they were continually re-copied, as with the bible by monks. Geez I sound so kopimist :E Yes there are books hundreds of years old, the ones made cheap now aren't as good quality and certainly don't last as long. But good old fashioned ink on paper is still much more durable and long-lasting than software and electronics, which evlove so quickly bakcwards compatability can't be ensured forever. In 500 years, as long as you can read the language, you can read the same book, but a USB key with today's data storage? No way, it'll be and antique, too different. Having a solid book on a shelf or in a box somewhere is totally more sound way to store the investment, you dig up WAAY old books all the time. But once you've read them once, twice .... what worth is left to them? There are movements of putting used books in plastic sleves and leaving them on park benches, to pass onto the next person. What's the use of a physical book once you're done reading it, apart from having it for future reference?
You're paying for the physical object that is the hard cover+paper+pulp+other chemicals. Don't people just borrow a book to scan at home and then upload 300+ jpegs?
i find reading books on the computer not as comfortable as reading "books" (no idea why) so i still prefer reading "real" books and most people i know still prefer reading books like me.
EPT
