I like to steal books, off the internet, and I'd like to examine how morally reprehensible this is, and see why eBooks are on the rise. Libraries will be in trouble once marketplaces like Steam become prominent in this sector (Amazon? to what extent arleady?)
TL;DR : If I can find it to torrent off the internet, why should I pay for (self-improvement) books? EDIT: This has gotten big with good discussion, thank you guys. I've tried to summarize the biggest points (that I've learnt) in my replies, see next post for compilation.
Hardcover books are outdated and unnecessary nowadays. Their large cover is meant to make them sturdy and lasting, but is rather impractical; who wants to lug many around? Yes they're nice for a collection on a shelf, or to sit and read in your drawing room/lounge, but I feel they don't match up to the lifestyle of most young people today, who value convenience (fits in your pocket) and cover-flexibility (read in the plane/subway/canteen) over musty appeal.
I see physical books altogether are starting to disappear, getting punched out of the way by eBooks, which I loosely define as "a normal book/magazine stored in electronic format" instead of analogue paper. Discuss benefits/drawbacks.
Reading is great, it's fab. for your language, but you kinda need some books if you want to read. Past middle-age my Grandfather has amassed a huge collection of books, mostly ones he'd buy on the cheap for 1$. In his retirement he is now the community librarian, and I help him when I visit. Books around the house are great, I'm no "BURN THE BOOK" guy, I don't even like writing in them. Through inheritance and passed-on-habits now my parent's house is FULL of books, about 10 full large bookshelfs adorn the place, all so ~ intellectual ~. I don't doubt they've read them all, my older siblings could easily find a token 'book to read' in our collection.... But that never meant I did past middle-school, and the subject-matter of most isn't really my thing (Ancient Classics, Literature Classics, Parenting, Theology(k kinda), Far East philosophy/politics/history versus Chemistry, Math, science.... )
I'm getting an eReader because I could have an entire library of interesting books/magazines I could read just about anywhere, and it's less strain than reading them off my laptop screen. To that end I've recently downloaded a shitton of eBooks off tpb, and good thing I did too because now it looks like they've seriously cracked down on insta-piracy by restricting tracker access to registered [paid?] users. Anyone know more about that
As of yet, in the future I plan to [illegally] download any other book/magazine I find remotely interesting to put on my eReader, so that I 'might' read it. It still doesn't guarantee I'll actually read it...
Discussion:
[this is still in the domain of legal purchase]
Hardcover: I honestly can't see why people would want to buy hardcover books anymore as anything more than a collectible. Textbooks are even heavier and EXPENSIVE :/
Physical copy v digital copy! You still need a medium to read the files, and they don't fill up a bookshelf, but I like that. I'm rather have many bookshelfs in my pocket than a single, half-filled one at home. 'Yer only gonna need one at a time anyways' ok, but I also plan to keep all the lecture notes for my courses + assingment handouts on there or revision/work anywhere.
Paying for Books?
[this is a subsidiary of a much larger topic, which I would like to discuss in the next thread "Free Knowledge: Paying for Learning?" about free online self-learning resources such as OCW university courses or free (text)books, so let's hold off on that discussion pls]
[especially free (scientific) Textbooks]; please hold out on this, I'd much rather discuss it in proper context, look around yourself, it's awesome, OCW consortium and manybooks.net
and books that are not (yet?) open-source.
You can either Buy a 'legal' copy from a licensed retailer: Softback hardeback secure download w/e, you're paying someone for it. Please share your experience with books you have bought digitally/paid download; worth it, much cheaper, better/worse investment (they get lost easy?)
Torrent an 'illegal' copy from teh internetz: This is the kicker. What are you paying for? The printing process, not in an eBook, compensating the author for his work, you get to rent from a library without paying the author, the only real service your money buys is the convenience of access to the text. In dear old market economy, you only pay for something if you have to, so buying or ordering a book online is just a last resort, because you can't get the book into your possession by any other ways. OK paying the author does kinda mean he can eat and live, but look up those who distribute their textbooks for free. If it's for the sake of increased learning and wisdom, why SHOULDN'T I download a bunch of teach-yourself-Korean books?
In retrospect I've realised you can't answer the question fully without delving into the whole free-knowledge free-learning debate ('pay for uni or free online' basically). Damm. There's already a thread kinda about it and everyone agreed it was pretty cool so mef.
I want a separate "Free Knowledge Database" thread for posting all your favorite links to online materials, courses, tutorials etc. and it can all be nicely organised by subject. Please keep this thread to discussing 'getting the ~book~ file' versus paying.
<: and to think this all started from seeing the Steve Jobs Autobiography lying in a store, and hearing my older brother tell the story of how his local Chinese co-worker in Shanghai had forwarded him a .pdf copw "this is interesting, take a look at this".
I agree, it is interesting, I've got it on my computer...
On January 13 2012 00:17 bITt.mAN wrote: Mark of a good thread, too many constructive replies for me to handle at once (: I took a firm stance (much more kopimist, one-sided, naieve and greedy than my own) and I'm very happy whith the replies, I've learned much more that way (:
I'll list quotes that stand out from the thread already (with replies):
Shickk "you don't have to own everything just because it's available somewhere"
Mobius_1 " read some excellent classics that are Public Domain, a lot of them shouldn't be missed"
vnlegend " If they go in the direction of Apple's iTunes store however, there's a good chance that more people will be willing to pay for quick access and better formatting." - do you mean consistent high quality, range and availablity, fixed but generally low price .... + DRM ? I have no exposure to the Amazon eBook market, or any other, I though that's already been somewhat implemented.
eshlow "I pretty much expect piracy as an inevitability, but I would like to think that those who do pirate would eventually support me in some way so I can continue to write about stuff people like to hear" - and if I like what you've written you're exactly the sort of person who I'd 'buy' from, as a sort of 'donation of thanks', and that I doubt (with all due respect) your works is readliy available for piracy.
Mindor " I have a bunch of books by my professors downloaded directly from sources they've given us. It's not out for everyone to see, certainly not findable with google, but they gave away books that are for sale at our university bookstore." - see I'm the kind of guy who keeps those forever, or keeps the University-provided software for 'just a little longer than my stay'. I'm compiling all the lecture notes + digital course materials I'm given access into nice archives, for my personal use later, oor if any of my friends want to do some recreational Pure Maths or Inorganic Chemistry (:
sirkyan "There is no chance in hell I would be able to read as fast as I do reading a hardcover or pocket, on a pc (or ipad, etc). The information doesn't stick in the same way. When I'm reading physics or math I need a physical copy. It doesn't matter the weight, nor cost." - For myself I plan getting that accustomed to reading eInk <:
IntoTheHeart "I only do it for authors who have passed away, or loan it from the library if the author is still alive." -interesting
SolHeiM "Piracy is not the same as stealing ... [explaination]" hypercube "Please don't call it stealing. It's not even illegal in many countries as long as you don't share it yourself." -Thank you for amending my ignorance of the nuance. I was also apt to throw around 'stealing' with 'legal' and had a bit of bait with 'morality'. If there are no immediate consequences or reprimands, 'stealing it' being illegal or not has no effect on my decsion. I know that's not your point, what I'm getting at is the decision should be influenced by how it affects the author, not by it being illegal in the law. Now we get into iffy territory, anyone feel free to tear my reasoning to shreds and purpousely misinterpret it, it's good for me.
On January 13 2012 00:41 bITt.mAN wrote: Synwave "If you don't pay publishers to produce books they minimize business and pay less authors. Hypertension "The real cost in the book is the author spending months writing the novel, and the publishing houses sifting through thousands of books/authors to find the good ones and market them. Gingerninja "cost nothing for the publisher to distribute except for maybe paying an editor to check over" Cabmium "The publisher takes a risk choosing a book to publish ... work with retailers" - See I hadn't though of the scale of writing a book, or also all the people who the money goes to. Quite naieve of me :/ There's a lot more people in the process than just the author. You need to select the good ones, professionally edit, market it, ditribute through retailers.... this is all financial risk taken, and these are all costs that are covered by buying a book.
Cabmium "You are paying for the work the author put in"
-First of all, domo arigato, thank you for your very well put and reasoned response, I've learned a lot and have been well taught, thank you. -the work- in itself justifies paying for it, that's enough, you're right.
Cabmium "Those who distribute books for free CHOOSE to do so because they are able. The authors decide whether to release their books for free, NOT you." -This is the big point. It's not in my power or right to decide "ok, I say your work isn't worth paying for, so give it to me for free".
Cabmium "[free worldwide learning, yaay!] This is really another topic, and you said you wanted to avoid this." -Really, THANK YOU for honouring my request (and reading the OP). Guys, I've gotta hand it to him, THIS is how you post REALLY WELL on an internet fourm, you honour me.
Cabmium "Also, books will never go away." -A time capsule of a USB key is about as 'permanant' of eBook storage as you can get IMO. No way that'll last 2000 years, nor have ancient Greek texts, they were continually re-copied, as with the bible by monks. Geez I sound so kopimist :E Yes there are books hundreds of years old, the ones made cheap now aren't as good quality and certainly don't last as long. But good old fashioned ink on paper is still much more durable and long-lasting than software and electronics, which evlove so quickly bakcwards compatability can't be ensured forever. In 500 years, as long as you can read the language, you can read the same book, but a USB key with today's data storage? No way, it'll be and antique, too different. Having a solid book on a shelf or in a box somewhere is totally more sound way to store the investment, you dig up WAAY old books all the time. But once you've read them once, twice .... what worth is left to them? There are movements of putting used books in plastic sleves and leaving them on park benches, to pass onto the next person. What's the use of a physical book once you're done reading it, apart from having it for future reference?
On January 13 2012 01:34 bITt.mAN wrote: Damm I can't respond to everything there's too much <3
sitkyan "If you would honestly consider a book heavy (my heaviest book is around 4kg) you should really go to the gym more. " - (: I can only have so many disclaimer clauses in the OP before it gets too long for anyone to bother reading. I used to lug 500pg hardback and 1000pg textbooks around all the time, though they'd fit a lot better into my bag, and give me less back problems, if they were condensed.
vnlegend "Well the paid books are usually better formatted, have ToC, etc. Some of the PDFs or mobi/epub files I've downloaded are missing stuff or have worse reading format. ... [compatability issues]" Tal "The proper formatting + table of contents is HUGE, and I think worth paying for." - See this is EXACTLY why I start threads like this, because this would never have crossed my mind as a concern. Someone complains to be about sound-quality of music or ugly graphics I go :bitch, please: . Even with low quality movies, I don't tolerate complaining about 'ugh the image quality's too low, I can't use/enjoy this' . But your point is a consideration only learnt through experience, that the quality of the production of an eBook is pivotal enough that it can make it unreadable or incomplete. VERY good point, yet another reason to get the HQ stuff.
aers "I would probably buy everything if I could afford to, but I simply find myself reading too much that my budget wouldn't keep up. Shitty excuse, but that's just the way things are. " -See this is why I want to get an eReader, I believe it'll get me accustomed and hooked on reading regularly.
-Libraries aren't free, they've got a cost structure. See, yet again, I hadn't though about it deep enough, thanks guys. Also creating a unified governmental open-access eBook system would be great, but then what do you do with all those authors that struggle. I know, the government pays them all for the rights to all their books, then they convert them all to eBooks and make them universally acessible, cool! SO many problems with this, who do you chose to be fair... and most importantly it acts like a subsidy (can't remember the term for it) where e.g. farmers in France have all their excess produce bought up by the government so they can reach market price. This is nice, but leads to problems of inefficency of labour (paid more than they should for their work) and large stores of un-used goods.
Deleuze "I used to work for a University where the library was 95% digital and students had access to books on their e-readers. In theory this great - every student has a copy of the core text, no overdue books, no damage etc etc - however the reality was awful: publishers were very resistant to releasing e-books in a library format to students as they were effectively doing themselves out of sales, also technical faults routinely down prevent the whole system from functioning, as a result most students had no core texts for their first 1 and a half terms of study. Many were seeking legal action last time I heard, glad I left that amateurish organisation." -Sounds like Ubisoft's anal DRM and people not being able to play legal copies of 'From Dust' cause their gameplay was dependent on shitty infastructure; they had to be constantly connected to the server, then the server was too weak...
-Going open-access is admirable, but it's also a priviledge not all can afford.
-I've decided on a non-colour eReader, to be easy on the eyes. Even so, textbooks or nice glossy picture books/magazines (an atlas, anatomy handbook...) are much better in book form IMO.
HotShizz "I am a starving artist writer type... I've been writing since I was young, I'm 25 now and trying to make a real go as an author. That said, I fully expect if I ever get a book published it will be in electronic format because it's less risk for the publisher (cheaper i.e. needs to sell less copies to be profitable). That said I hope it gets out there, if people download it illegally, fine as long as they read it and enjoy it ... If the entertainment is worth it, buy it. " -c ouf ca come opinion et mode de vie mec, vraiment, chapeaux
Oh and bluQ, you're absolutely right I should read up on just about everything in Wikipedia, it's an amazing resource (: Usually it's a bit more effective if you synthesize the moral structure and apply it to the case, instead if just implying I have no notion of ethics. D'ya wanna TL;DR it for me, preasuuuuuuuu
Artrey "I would always pick a CD over a music download for the same price. Only to rip the CD afterwards and to put it into the shelve. But it feels that I am getting more out of it. If I delete or lose the virtual copy there is always the physical one and vice versa. It's a nice backup concept. I also like books as a collectable and I like the feeling and smell of paper. Yet my Kindle 4 is incredible cool and comfortable to read on as well. " " usage rights to the book" -Same here, that's a good way to put it, and for CD's I feel exactly the same way. If I want to support the artist I buy it with pride, I buy the right to use it.
twofish "For example there are many classic physics text books which are still very relevant today, so there you can just go buy a cheap used book which is 20+ years old." -I've got one (Inorganic Chemistry) that was discarded from the library because the spine was coming off, FREE (: . Shouldn't then these classic go-to's be free. And about Journal articles, amen, so redic.
Nevermind86 "a lot other Sci-fi books that have really changed my thoughts on a long list of things. LONG LIVE PIRACY READING." - There I fixed it for you ^^ See those are exactly the sort of books I want to get in the habit of reading, with an eReader.
Yurie "Like an author releasing book 1 in a series to the public domain, hoping that sparks enough interest to get people into his/her site with direct revenue. There are authors trying this route out now (Monbade from New Federation being one example) and they don't seem to be doing all that well, though they have no real brand, thus not enough followers." interesting, and yes, you won't be getting money by file transfer like you do from HQ imigur pics.
[b] IntoTheHeart "Yes, but it's also my main means of testing whether or not I'd like to actually pay for the game. Torrent, play for a few hours, if it's worth it, I'll consider buying. If it isn't, I'll just delete. It's wrong but trailers and demos only share so much information about a game to you." -I love demos, but demos for books SUCK. If I want to make an investment for something I want to keep in a collection, sure, but I don't have that much recreational money.
Zren 89 "The new(er) books should be paid for, at least the ones where the author is still alive, its hard work writing anything, fiction or non-, and they should be compensated for their efforts! " -Should there be 'fair use' for paying for books, some sort of system where you don't have to pay as much/anything if the author is not really needing it (their decision). Yes, authors can make their material free to access but (see next bit). Also, once they're dead, should they get royalties (I dunno how the law works here). A nice example is the Tolkein foundation, where his nephew, the heir, is a conaisseur of different types of marijhuna and just lives off the royalties of his uncle... Does he deserve it!?
Zren 89 "But seriously everyone should know that MANY of the books that you need for lit classes at uni and other things like that are readily available FOR FREE off of legal sites and even through Amazon. They fall under Fair Use, and are generally considered to be educational in nature and written before 1950's... there are alot of options for self-improvement, self-education that are not illegal, I think it would definitely be a good idea to look into those before "pirating" them."
As with all content, downloading it for free will only hurt the wrong people, and for the wrong reasons. Don't try to find excuses for doing it; you don't have to own everything just because it's available somewhere. Want something? Buy it. Like it or not, this is how our world works, and by bypassing this you're doing noone except yourself a favor. Quite the contrary.
Well it's definitely not "right" or legal, but books are certainly not cheap and if you wouldn't have bought the books anyway then stealing it actually doesn't really hurt the author, particularly minor names whose books get buried in the shop beneath piles of teen romances. Also books create positive externalities so you could say torrent sites are doing the world a favour by enriching peoples' knowledge.
I've always followed Cory Doctorow who publishes all his books in free Creative Commons licence form online as well as with a publisher on paper and it's worked out great for his reputation and financial fortunes as fans actually buy real copies regardless of free availability.
But being an author isn't easy, so please support authors you read if you can. Finally, you could always read some excellent classics that are Public Domain, a lot of them shouldn't be missed.
Personaly i buy hardcover books when i want to study, i just cant force myself to read anything more than 10mins when im reading Ebook i just cant stay focused, i go to youtube do some other stuff turn on some random game..
Well the paid books are usually better formatted, have ToC, etc. Some of the PDFs or mobi/epub files I've downloaded are missing stuff or have worse reading format.
Although the trend I see from the whole ebook business is that the prices for ebooks have to come down in order to deal with piracy. If they're charging $15-20 for regular books (150-250 pgs) or so, then more people will want to pirate. By doing the whole digital thing, they're already reducing printing and distribution costs. If they go in the direction of Apple's iTunes store however, there's a good chance that more people will be willing to pay for quick access and better formatting.
Finally there's a compatibility issue with some of the ebooks are in different formats. The ebook market probably won't reach its peak until there's some sort of format consolidation like HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray.
OK paying the author does kinda mean he can eat and live,
As an author, yes, this is actually very important.
I can't produce good quality info/books/etc. if I don't have financial support....
My book sales go towards paying off my financial debt from school.
I pretty much expect piracy as an inevitability, but I would like to think that those who do pirate would eventually support me in some way so I can continue to write about stuff people like to hear
I'm not sure about your point exactly. Even if you can morally get behind using tpb to acquire books, it's certainly not 100% legal. It doesn't matter if you approve of the place your money goes to after buying online copies, promoting piracy on an open forum is probably not the best idea. That said, I have a bunch of books by my professors downloaded directly from sources they've given us. It's not out for everyone to see, certainly not findable with google, but they gave away books that are for sale at our university bookstore. So unless it's a bestseller, I doubt you're hurting the author much by downloading books. But I think that only goes for books used for educational purposes for a specific course that no one else but the students would ever read.
There is no chance in hell I would be able to read as fast as I do reading a hardcover or pocket, on a pc (or ipad, etc). The information doesn't stick in the same way. When I'm reading physics or math I need a physical copy. It doesn't matter the weight, nor cost.
But carrying around is not really a concern. If you would honestly consider a book heavy (my heaviest book is around 4kg) you should really go to the gym more.
Then again, I haven't personally bought any book I haven't read or isn't currently reading. And I might add I've read one fiction, the rest is physics and math, so the problem with hamstering books isn't really a problem. And sitting down reading whenever seem... I don't plan poorly enough to have time pockets appearing out of the blue.
That's my take on books.. Well, sciency books. We are all different though. About illegally download. I don't support it. Books are generally quite cheap and if you're buying a book you generally get A LOT of content per price, if you would just read a few books thoroughly I feel you wouldn't even dream of having an entire library in your pocket.
Piracy is not the same as stealing, because when you steal a physical object from a store, that's a lost sale. The store has ordered something, and because one item was stolen from their store, they have lost one sale.
Piracy is not a lost sale, because it's a digital copy of something I wouldn't have bought anyway. The only reason I download it is because it's free. I wouldn't be buying anyway.
That is my justification for pirating books, music games and movies.
Oh look another thread justifying theft. If you don't pay publishers to produce books they minimize business and pay less authors. Less authors can make a living being authors and we have less unique and interesting books. The only stuff that survives is sludge that is widely popular and can still be a safe bet for a publisher to spend money either distributing electronically or in physical form. You can justify it anyway you like but this is the path it goes down.
The thing is actually printing a book costs only pennies. The real cost in the book is the author spending months writing the novel, and the publishing houses sifting through thousands of books/authors to find the good ones and market them. That is why e-books are not that much cheaper than physcial books, and why it is definately not ok to torrent them.
I think the author should be compensated for their work, but eBook prices should be so much lower. It's literally a word document or pdf that cost nothing for the publisher to distribute except for maybe paying an editor to check over.
I also believe there needs to be a system to allow you to have free eBook copies of books you already own. I have lots of books I'd love to have on an eReader, that I already own as actual books, I'll be damned if I'm paying for them again, when all they've done is upload the master copy from a computer onto an online source. Hence why I haven't bought an eReader yet. (Also waiting for kindle to drop a little more.. )
Torrent an 'illegal' copy from teh internetz: This is the kicker. What are you paying for? The printing process, not in an eBook, compensating the author for his work,
You are paying for the work the author put in, as well as a publishing cost. Even if it's an eBook, there is still a publishing cost. In fact, if you look on Amazon, most eBooks are more expensive than mass market paperbacks.
you get to rent from a library without paying the author,
Libraries are funded by the government, i.e. paid, directly and indirectly by your country's tax money. You might not be paying taxes yet, but you will (hopefully), and other people are.
the only real service your money buys is the convenience of access to the text.
You are paying the author for his time spent writing the book, and the publisher for publishing a book. The publisher takes a risk choosing a book to publish, and has to spend resources on formatting the book (how do you think eBooks get made???), work with retailers, etc.
In dear old market economy, you only pay for something if you have to, so buying or ordering a book online is just a last resort, because you can't get the book into your possession by any other ways. OK paying the author does kinda mean he can eat and live, but look up those who distribute their textbooks for free.
This is really fucked up logic. Why would I pay for food when I can just steal it from the supermarket? Why would anyone pay for anything when they can just steal it?
Those who distribute books for free CHOOSE to do so because they are able. The authors decide whether to release their books for free, NOT you.
If it's for the sake of increased learning and wisdom, why SHOULDN'T I download a bunch of teach-yourself-Korean books?
This is really another topic, and you said you wanted to avoid this.
On January 12 2012 23:28 vnlegend wrote: Well the paid books are usually better formatted, have ToC, etc. Some of the PDFs or mobi/epub files I've downloaded are missing stuff or have worse reading format.
Although the trend I see from the whole ebook business is that the prices for ebooks have to come down in order to deal with piracy. If they're charging $15-20 for regular books (150-250 pgs) or so, then more people will want to pirate. By doing the whole digital thing, they're already reducing printing and distribution costs. If they go in the direction of Apple's iTunes store however, there's a good chance that more people will be willing to pay for quick access and better formatting.
Finally there's a compatibility issue with some of the ebooks are in different formats. The ebook market probably won't reach its peak until there's some sort of format consolidation like HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray.
This. I have bought a lot of ebooks, but also pirated some, and also downloaded some free ones legally. The proper formatting + table of contents is HUGE, and I think worth paying for. But it's not worth paying full price for. I think a quality e-book should be around £2-3, which I'd be happy to pay to know it's perfectly formatted. Also, I got an illustrated collection of Sherlock Holmes and it's lovely - adding pictures helps too.
Having said this, I think governments should try and put a significant amount of stuff online for free. There should be a high quality, well formatted version of every classic and every foundation text in every discipline for a start.
Note that everything I say only applies to fiction; I very rarely read e-book versions of textbooks, etc, the exception being programming stuff, a lot of which is free anyway.
I both pirate tons of books and buy tons of books (sometimes two copies, physical and digital - a lot of this though is for 'legacy' series I've been collecting, I tend to read digital over physical). The Amazon Kindle storefront is so incredibly convenient that I sometimes will go to pirate and book and just buy it anyway because it's simpler. Also, nothing beats midnight delivery...
I would probably buy everything if I could afford to, but I simply find myself reading too much that my budget wouldn't keep up. Shitty excuse, but that's just the way things are.
I also believe there needs to be a system to allow you to have free eBook copies of books you already own. I have lots of books I'd love to have on an eReader, that I already own as actual books, I'll be damned if I'm paying for them again, when all they've done is upload the master copy from a computer onto an online source. Hence why I haven't bought an eReader yet. (Also waiting for kindle to drop a little more.. )
I've pirated tons of books that I already owned prior to getting a Kindle. I already paid for them, I don't plan on getting rid of the physical copies (I love having bookshelves actually filled with books!), so I don't see a problem with having a digital copy to read elsewhere.
edit: Forgot something. Amazon (and I believe Barnes & Noble) are both partnering with libraries to offer e-book lending. Perfectly legal alternative to pirating; check it out if your local library is a partner. I believe this is USA only for now though.
On January 12 2012 23:36 SolHeiM wrote: Piracy is not the same as stealing, because when you steal a physical object from a store, that's a lost sale. The store has ordered something, and because one item was stolen from their store, they have lost one sale.
Piracy is not a lost sale, because it's a digital copy of something I wouldn't have bought anyway. The only reason I download it is because it's free. I wouldn't be buying anyway.
That is my justification for pirating books, music games and movies.
^ I'll agree with that too in all honesty. I sure as hell wouldn't have paid for most of the games on my computer if that's a good example. I mean half of them are barely worth a few dollars as it is.
Currently E-books leave a lot to be desired in terms of formatting, usability (i.e. notation), and also pagination. This is obviously set to change and improve. I'm also dyslexic and find reader text incredibly hard to follow.
I'm adverse to overly sentimental attitudes to the materiality of a book being fundamental to the reading experience but am equally resistant to people that read paper books being referred to as luddites.
The major obstacle to a complete move over to e-books will be copyright because precisely of the OPs actions. The most labour expensive texts, chiefly academic texts will likely be very slow to make a complete transition simply because they sell so few copies anyway. Going open access is admirable and there have been a number of successes however transition into open access texts will be fraught with growing pains as authors struggle to find sufficient returns to balance the needs and labours exerted in creating these kinds of works (certainly when retaining credibility), if at least you believe what they say about market economies...
Obviously there are some very important material qualities that artistic text capitalise upon by being written on paper. This is a good thing. Conversely there are digital qualities that e-reader (or really tablet) authors can utilise for artistic effect.
The OP seems to be miss-informed about how 'free' library books are. The costs of texts are paid for publicly and the author receives recompense from the publisher (or more typically an advance).
Straying from your initial point slightly: I used to work for a University where the library was 95% digital and students had access to books on their e-readers. In theory this great - every student has a copy of the core text, no overdue books, no damage etc etc - however the reality was awful: publishers were very resistant to releasing e-books in a library format to students as they were effectively doing themselves out of sales, also technical faults routinely down prevent the whole system from functioning, as a result most students had no core texts for their first 1 and a half terms of study. Many were seeking legal action last time I heard, glad I left that amateurish organisation.
I’m pro-e-readers so long as they actually overcome all there short comings, the major issue is that the reader itself is very expensive (£89?) and would likely not be attainable by the poorest in our community.
On January 12 2012 23:36 SolHeiM wrote: Piracy is not the same as stealing, because when you steal a physical object from a store, that's a lost sale. The store has ordered something, and because one item was stolen from their store, they have lost one sale.
Piracy is not a lost sale, because it's a digital copy of something I wouldn't have bought anyway. The only reason I download it is because it's free. I wouldn't be buying anyway.
That is my justification for pirating books, music games and movies.
^ I'll agree with that too in all honesty. I sure as hell wouldn't have paid for most of the games on my computer if that's a good example. I mean half of them are barely worth a few dollars as it is.
Then why do you get to have them on your computer? You have used likely thousands of hours of peoples hard work without compensating them. You wouldn't have paid? Who cares, its not about lost sales, not for me anyway. Money is not everything. That is someones hard work, they have rights over there own work, you not paying for there work is just immoral.
Like music, i think the companies are taking the wrong attitude towards this. Its getting incredibly hard to police such areas of piracy online and putting too many resources into it just dosen't make sense.
Radiohead's stock rosed when they sold their album for any price online and they made lots of money through live concerts and performances, experiences which can never be pirated.
Similarly, any smart author should release their books free, and if their book is of any quality, would get recognized and be invited to speaks and book signings.
Need to focus on making revenue from stuff that cant be pirated. Not all people are screwed and some will pay even if the book is free.
I don't have a kindle but I use the app on my phone and laptop, and I'll probably get one soon enough - it's just a matter of which one. The original kindles are much easier on the eyes, but the fire would be perfect for any magazine subscriptions I get, and haven't we all wanted one of those tablet readers since we saw them in sci-fi when we were younger? Yay for teh futorz!
Arguing about the cost of books is, to me, a difficult one. The printing industry has operated for centuries on the same model - author writes a book, printers print it, bookshops sell it to you. Each part marks up the price, ending up in the price we pay at Barnes and Nobles or whatever. these eReaders are giving us reduced price books, but they're still a high price compared to what it should be. It's the same as the music industry - should we be paying so much for an electronic copy of something? They say yes, to keep it roughly on parity with a physical copy, but I wonder if that will continue much longer. We're already seeing people cutting out the publisher part of the process and selling directly through the Kindle store - more profits go straight to the author and we get a book for a few dollars. Maybe that's the way of the future - author pays for editing and proff-reading and that's it. They barely get paid anything for writing as it is, when you consider how much a book actually costs.
Personally I'll never completely give up books. A kindle is nice for convenience, I can see taking it on holiday or if I commute to work, but I still will be getting hard copies of the books I know I like.
I also can't say that books should be pirated or free - where is the incentive in having an author sacrifice a lot of time and effort towards making a good book, if he isn't going to be paid for his time? Being a professional author is a full-time job - if they give the books away for free then how do they feed themselves, or afford a house? The Radiohead model mentioned above is great, for musicians who are already established, internationally reknowned and have an established fan base. How can an author make a living this way?
I am a starving artist writer type... I've been writing since I was young, I'm 25 now and trying to make a real go as an author. That said, I fully expect if I ever get a book published it will be in electronic format because it's less risk for the publisher (cheaper i.e. needs to sell less copies to be profitable). That said I hope it gets out there, if people download it illegally, fine as long as they read it and enjoy it. If you really like it, but you wouldn't buy it no matter what, maybe you just telling someone else about it gets the sale (food on my table). I mean, it's like the reason piracy is legal in sweden (iirc), because people that pirate media aren't likely to buy it if that is the only means, they just wont consume the media, it doesn't actually lower sales; That said, if you really really like something you read (illegally) at least think about buying a legitimate copy to support the author, if not, oh well. Kind of like how you can choose to support your favorite streamers by subscribing. If the entertainment is worth it, buy it.
To be honest, i don't see e-Books on the rise compared to traditional ones. Things like Daily Newspaper get into huge trouble these times, because Internet always is faster, has the possibilty to update more recently and this part of written text is all about fast information and not about deep, well written text.
Just have a look of the success of traditional books over the last years. The Harry Potter Series or "The Swarm" by Frank Schätzing, just to name some randomly. It's not only about the content itself, it's also about... Design. Aesthetics. A Hardcover-Book in a book shelf always will transport a more "worthy" feeling than a file on a harddrive. Just like Vinyl compared to mp3. How often people said vinyl was dying? I don't see this happening, as long as there are people willing to pay for... Arts&Craft.
My sister got Amazon's kindle as a christmas present. She is into reading a lot. Even if kindle is designed to feel like a traditional book as much as possible (non reflecting screen, Characters based on Ink-Design), it will never feel the same. Imagine all the different situations where you want to have a good read, but not wanting to carry a tablet, laptop, eReader or whatever with you. At the beach, on holidays for example.
For all the things, that are about information/learning/science and stuff like that, it may become the standard to have them rather released in a digital way. But for Books that tell stories, that pull people into other universes, that make people laugh, cry, fear, love, hate... that make people stay up all night... no, sir. I have to disagree.
On January 13 2012 00:07 HotShizz wrote: I am a starving artist writer type... I've been writing since I was young, I'm 25 now and trying to make a real go as an author. That said, I fully expect if I ever get a book published it will be in electronic format because it's less risk for the publisher (cheaper i.e. needs to sell less copies to be profitable). That said I hope it gets out there, if people download it illegally, fine as long as they read it and enjoy it. If you really like it, but you wouldn't buy it no matter what, maybe you just telling someone else about it gets the sale (food on my table). I mean, it's like the reason piracy is legal in sweden (iirc), because people that pirate media aren't likely to buy it if that is the only means, they just wont consume the media, it doesn't actually lower sales; That said, if you really really like something you read (illegally) at least think about buying a legitimate copy to support the author, if not, oh well. Kind of like how you can choose to support your favorite streamers by subscribing. If the entertainment is worth it, buy it.
Ebook prices are simply ridiculous. I have a kindle so I can only buy from there, but 90% of the time I don't even consider buying them because of the price. There's simply no reason for them to be more expensive than actual books and yet they are. It's more or less the same reason I pirate games, I don't want to pay $60, and yet I will spend tons on games that are $30 and less because that's the price I value them at.
This is not a justification for piracy (there isn't one) but a rationalization of why I do it
Mark of a good thread, too many constructive replies for me to handle at once (: I took a firm stance (much more kopimist, one-sided, naieve and greedy than my own) and I'm very happy whith the replies, I've learned much more that way (:
I'll list quotes that stand out from the thread already (with replies):
Shickk "you don't have to own everything just because it's available somewhere"
Mobius_1 " read some excellent classics that are Public Domain, a lot of them shouldn't be missed"
vnlegend " If they go in the direction of Apple's iTunes store however, there's a good chance that more people will be willing to pay for quick access and better formatting." - do you mean consistent high quality, range and availablity, fixed but generally low price .... + DRM ? I have no exposure to the Amazon eBook market, or any other, I though that's already been somewhat implemented.
eshlow "I pretty much expect piracy as an inevitability, but I would like to think that those who do pirate would eventually support me in some way so I can continue to write about stuff people like to hear" - and if I like what you've written you're exactly the sort of person who I'd 'buy' from, as a sort of 'donation of thanks', and that I doubt (with all due respect) your works is readliy available for piracy.
Mindor " I have a bunch of books by my professors downloaded directly from sources they've given us. It's not out for everyone to see, certainly not findable with google, but they gave away books that are for sale at our university bookstore." - see I'm the kind of guy who keeps those forever, or keeps the University-provided software for 'just a little longer than my stay'. I'm compiling all the lecture notes + digital course materials I'm given access into nice archives, for my personal use later, oor if any of my friends want to do some recreational Pure Maths or Inorganic Chemistry (:
sirkyan "There is no chance in hell I would be able to read as fast as I do reading a hardcover or pocket, on a pc (or ipad, etc). The information doesn't stick in the same way. When I'm reading physics or math I need a physical copy. It doesn't matter the weight, nor cost." - For myself I plan getting that accustomed to reading eInk <:
IntoTheHeart "I only do it for authors who have passed away, or loan it from the library if the author is still alive." -interesting
SolHeiM "Piracy is not the same as stealing ... [explaination]" hypercube "Please don't call it stealing. It's not even illegal in many countries as long as you don't share it yourself." -Thank you for amending my ignorance of the nuance. I was also apt to throw around 'stealing' with 'legal' and had a bit of bait with 'morality'. If there are no immediate consequences or reprimands, 'stealing it' being illegal or not has no effect on my decsion. I know that's not your point, what I'm getting at is the decision should be influenced by how it affects the author, not by it being illegal in the law. Now we get into iffy territory, anyone feel free to tear my reasoning to shreds and purpousely misinterpret it, it's good for me.
On one hand, I know that printing and retailing physical copies only costs a few cents, so a digital copy will not be a lot cheaper. And that is coming from a german guy, since here book prices are fixed and shops are not allowed to sell books cheaper to keep the prices high. German books usually cost 2-3 times as much as the same one in english (however the print and paper quality are usually better as well). The fact that I have to pay the same money for something digital makes me feel a bit robbed. I don't know... If I could choose, I would always pick a CD over a music download for the same price. Only to rip the CD afterwards and to put it into the shelve. But it feels that I am getting more out of it. If I delete or lose the virtual copy there is always the physical one and vice versa. It's a nice backup concept. I also like books as a collectable and I like the feeling and smell of paper. Yet my Kindle 4 is incredible cool and comfortable to read on as well.
So why not give me a digital copy of every real book I buy? Or just sell digital copies (aka the usage rights to the book) for the same price with the option to take the physical copy for free if someone wants it?
On the other hand, I think that lending virtual copies from a state-owned library is the most silly thing I ever heard. It feels wrong on so many levels that there have to be complex DRM mechanisms to guarantee that a file is deleted after the lending period is over when you could just give everyone a copy without any effort or cost.
I don't know, but to me it feels that - even more than for music and movies - this debate shows so clearly that we need a drastic reform on copyright and knowledge sharing as a whole.
I have downloaded a lot of physics/maths/science books, although most of them are just rotting on my harddisk. Still its nice to "have my own library" when I need to find books about a new topic. Then I can get a feel about which books I like, and which I dont. If I just want to skim through the book once I use my pdf copy or go to the library and get it.
But when I really want to study a book deeply then I always go and buy it myself. However if I feel the price is inadequate, I try to get it alternatively. For example there are many classic physics text books which are still very relevant today, so there you can just go buy a cheap used book which is 20+ years old. Otherwise, if it is a real classic, there is often some kind of international/indian/chinese version around which costs about a quarter of the original...
The main thing that annoys me are the unfair devastatingly high prices that certain publishers demand for classic textbooks. For advanced electrodynamics, the book by J.D. Jackson is the classic, has been out since 1960 or something and probably paid for itself many many times. So basically the publisher only has to pay for printing, but that goddamn book costs still about 100$. I ended up buying it from amazon china for 10$+20$ shipping, which in itself is absurd...
For cutting edge scientific papers it gets even more ridiculous (the publishers dont even pay the authors but demand bucketloads of money from the readers...)
I have thought about getting a kindle dx in order to be able to read papers/pdfs on it, but I still value the peculiarities of paper/books a lot. Being able to skim quickly through a book, switch quickly between the pages, take notes/highlight stuff is just invaluable to me.
Wasn't there this study by the swiss government not long ago that showed that piracy doesn't have a bad influence on the money spent in said industry? The study most likely did not involve books and I see 1-2 reasons why this could be different (readings might not be in demand as much as concerts?) but it certainly does not has to be.
Synwave "If you don't pay publishers to produce books they minimize business and pay less authors. Hypertension "The real cost in the book is the author spending months writing the novel, and the publishing houses sifting through thousands of books/authors to find the good ones and market them. Gingerninja "cost nothing for the publisher to distribute except for maybe paying an editor to check over" Cabmium "The publisher takes a risk choosing a book to publish ... work with retailers" - See I hadn't though of the scale of writing a book, or also all the people who the money goes to. Quite naieve of me :/ There's a lot more people in the process than just the author. You need to select the good ones, professionally edit, market it, ditribute through retailers.... this is all financial risk taken, and these are all costs that are covered by buying a book.
Cabmium "You are paying for the work the author put in"
-First of all, domo arigato, thank you for your very well put and reasoned response, I've learned a lot and have been well taught, thank you. -the work- in itself justifies paying for it, that's enough, you're right.
Cabmium "Those who distribute books for free CHOOSE to do so because they are able. The authors decide whether to release their books for free, NOT you." -This is the big point. It's not in my power or right to decide "ok, I say your work isn't worth paying for, so give it to me for free".
Cabmium "[free worldwide learning, yaay!] This is really another topic, and you said you wanted to avoid this." -Really, THANK YOU for honouring my request (and reading the OP). Guys, I've gotta hand it to him, THIS is how you post REALLY WELL on an internet fourm, you honour me.
Cabmium "Also, books will never go away." -A time capsule of a USB key is about as 'permanant' of eBook storage as you can get IMO. No way that'll last 2000 years, nor have ancient Greek texts, they were continually re-copied, as with the bible by monks. Geez I sound so kopimist :E Yes there are books hundreds of years old, the ones made cheap now aren't as good quality and certainly don't last as long. But good old fashioned ink on paper is still much more durable and long-lasting than software and electronics, which evlove so quickly bakcwards compatability can't be ensured forever. In 500 years, as long as you can read the language, you can read the same book, but a USB key with today's data storage? No way, it'll be and antique, too different. Having a solid book on a shelf or in a box somewhere is totally more sound way to store the investment, you dig up WAAY old books all the time. But once you've read them once, twice .... what worth is left to them? There are movements of putting used books in plastic sleves and leaving them on park benches, to pass onto the next person. What's the use of a physical book once you're done reading it, apart from having it for future reference?
You're paying for the physical object that is the hard cover+paper+pulp+other chemicals. Don't people just borrow a book to scan at home and then upload 300+ jpegs?
i find reading books on the computer not as comfortable as reading "books" (no idea why) so i still prefer reading "real" books and most people i know still prefer reading books like me.
Book piracy is essentially the same thing as music piracy, for better or worse. There's not much of a new discussion to be had about it.
As for the practicality, I much prefer real books. When I read online, I always have the tendency to skip or get bored and go watch a stream or play a game. I can't dedicate myself to it the same way as if I'm in my bed or a comfortable chair. I've seen Kindles, but they're much less pleasant to read than an actual book, so I think I'll stick to real books for as long as humanly possible.
On January 12 2012 23:42 Synwave wrote: Oh look another thread justifying theft. If you don't pay publishers to produce books they minimize business and pay less authors. Less authors can make a living being authors and we have less unique and interesting books. The only stuff that survives is sludge that is widely popular and can still be a safe bet for a publisher to spend money either distributing electronically or in physical form. You can justify it anyway you like but this is the path it goes down.
You can't call it theft when it's not illegal (DISCLAIMER: this isn't legal advice, check your country's laws).
The problem with the second argument that it doesn't say why pirating popular stuff is bad. Also the same argument works for banning people from giving their own stuff away from free. If people are allowed to create and distribute content freely it will discourage those who would only create stuff for profit. Maybe government should set a minimum price?
How about classics? The poor authors have to compete with Shakespeare or Tolstoy. How does that not hurt content producers?
Of course the argument goes that the readers' right to access classics for free comes before the authors' right to having a healthy market. It's obvious that the authors and society as a whole can have very different interests.
But instead of encouraging a debate on where society's interests lie content producers are trying to poison it by painting it as a moral issue and comparing it to theft. I'm sorry but as long the benefits of more people accessing the works outweigh the loss of less books being produced piracy is good for society as a whole.
And frankly, I'm not even sure authors (or other content producers) should even have a say in the debate, except as private citizens. The goal isn't to balance the interests of authors and readers. The position of the author and the publisher is analogous to the freeloader who refuses to pay no matter what. Both are working against society as a whole for their own self-interest.
On January 13 2012 00:07 HotShizz wrote: I am a starving artist writer type... I've been writing since I was young, I'm 25 now and trying to make a real go as an author. That said, I fully expect if I ever get a book published it will be in electronic format because it's less risk for the publisher (cheaper i.e. needs to sell less copies to be profitable). That said I hope it gets out there, if people download it illegally, fine as long as they read it and enjoy it. If you really like it, but you wouldn't buy it no matter what, maybe you just telling someone else about it gets the sale (food on my table). I mean, it's like the reason piracy is legal in sweden (iirc), because people that pirate media aren't likely to buy it if that is the only means, they just wont consume the media, it doesn't actually lower sales; That said, if you really really like something you read (illegally) at least think about buying a legitimate copy to support the author, if not, oh well. Kind of like how you can choose to support your favorite streamers by subscribing. If the entertainment is worth it, buy it.
If pirating a book is unethical is lending from library too?? MMMMMMMM...? I don't pirate books because I can't read from screen. I like audiobooks (well listening my first one atm) but I cant buy or lend them (student).
From 2 options. A. peopel dont read and dont pirate. B. people read and pirate. I like the choice B, but I see that not everyone wants option B.
I've read 23 pirated books, when I finish reading them I send them to my mail in case a friend wants it, to email it easier. The list includes 1984, childhood's end, the war of the worlds and a lot other Sci-fi books that have really changed my thoughts on a long list of things. LONG LIVE PIRACY.
imo ebooks are overpriced. there's little justification charging that much when the marginal cost of producing them is pretty much insignificant. And yet sometimes they're priced higher than actual books? I can totally understand people pirating it, until the prices are a bit more reasonable for a "digital" copy of a book -_-
Dunno, i wouldn't pirate a book mostly because i hate reading anything on my monitor and would prefer hard copies. After reading so many forums I think I lost my ability to read for a long period of time on my monitor. Zero problem reading actual books though.
I also think every book should come with a coupon that gives you a free copy of an ebook. I'd buy a kindle in an instant if they started doing things like this. I love physical books too much to ever replace them with a kindle, i think :|
There is another interesting discussion here. How do an author support him/herself if they can't sell their books the normal way and ebooks just get pirated? (There is discussions about changing words out to create unique books and thus track down the users spreading the first version, wouldn't be noticeable in most books unless you compare them.)
They don't have the live appearance appeal a musical artist has. I can't think of a single author I would pay to meet or hear reading his/her work out loud (maybe because I am not into the various variants of poetry).
This just leaves the "DLC"/monthly subscription route of games where the author has a core following paying for things and nobody outside of that group can see the content until a certain time/event has passed. Like an author releasing book 1 in a series to the public domain, hoping that sparks enough interest to get people into his/her site with direct revenue. There are authors trying this route out now (Monbade from New Federation being one example) and they don't seem to be doing all that well, though they have no real brand, thus not enough followers.
There is of course the advertisement revenue from being on a site. Text is cheap content to stream online with a book being under one MB in most situations. Doubtful you get enough exposure to live from that though.
(I read all kind of content, pirated, bought, library, free and amateur content.)
I like ebooks, about half the books I've read have been on a computer or ereader (Sony Pocket variant). E-ink is quite nice.
I've done both, and I have to say that I have the following preference: hardcover > softcover > ebook. ebooks are nice for easy transport, but as previous posters have said, the material just doesn't stick. And print textbooks are nearly a necessity for any difficult text. Noting and underlining is worthless in an ebook. Also, e-ink > lcd for reading. I prefer reading on my gen1 Kindle over my Kindle Fire.
Is piracy legal, no, of course not But neither is speeding and j-walking, just watch out for the 1/1000 chance that there are actual ramifications for such behavior
Man im a first year engineering student and I pretty much have every textbook for the year on a pdf in my laptop, and its great. any time I wanna go to the library, I dont have to carry a bunch of textbooks over, i just shove my laptop into my backpack and leave. I got these illegally as well. y? because they cost too much. if I bought all my textbooks new, my total bill from the store would be way over $1000. that ridiculous. who in their right mind would pay 1000 for books they arent going to touch in a few months. Like if each books costed 50 max, then I would buy them. I feel the authors, or publishers, or who everare setting the prices are hurting them selves, and are the root cause of the piracy. They should understand that students pay ALOT to receive a good post-secondary education (my total bill from the uni this year is 18k....), and so will not be willing to buy new textbooks if they cost a lot (one of my books costs 200!). Even the ebooks cost a lot (as the other people above me mentioned). I would be down to buy the ebooks if they didnt cost so much :/. I wonder y the price setters havent thought of this yet?
When you download an ebook, you're consuming content without paying for it, Most of you are justifying it by saying that most of the money isn't going to the author or that it isn't formatted well enough for you, but still you obtain the book without paying for it. At the end of the day, perhaps an author or an artist (in the case of music) isn't getting a large percentage of what you pay for a particular item, but that's how they make their money.
I buy books and I buy games and I buy music and I buy movies (or rent them usually) because I know that if I were in the business of programming or recording or acting, I would prefer if I got paid for my work.
And ebooks are harder to read for me, especially text books.
On January 13 2012 01:10 WikidSik wrote: I wonder y the price setters havent thought of this yet?
If they sell 2k books, total, before a book becomes old and have to pay for the person writing it, the editors, printing, marketing... Then it costs a lot to break even or make a profit.
On January 13 2012 01:01 Ryndika wrote: If pirating a book is unethical is lending from library too?? MMMMMMMM...?
Hate this argument, libraries pay to be able to lend out those books. Also, every library also lends out music CDs. The reason why you probably think it's not the same is because if you like a CD, you'll want to listen to it for more than a couple weeks, so borrowing one is impractical. For purposes of a discussion on ethics though, borrowing/pirating a book is no different from a CD.
In terms of what supports the producers of the content, buying a used game at GameStop is actually less ethical than borrowing a book from a library.
I certainly like my books on paper. Still, e-books are the future. I don't think that libraries will be in trouble, though. All that they'll need is some kind of paradigm shift from "paper" to "e-".
I only download books for free because many are available that way. It's really great, and most of those books are free of right anyway.Those I can't find that I really want I get them on papers. Ebooks are as expensive as their paper counterparts, and it shouldn't be that way for obvious reasons. Also you don't even need torrent, many are available as PDF directly from internet pages.
On January 13 2012 00:41 bITt.mAN wrote: -A time capsule of a USB key is about as 'permanant' of eBook storage as you can get IMO. No way that'll last 2000 years, nor have ancient Greek texts, they were continually re-copied, as with the bible by monks. Geez I sound so kopimist :E Yes there are books hundreds of years old, the ones made cheap now aren't as good quality and certainly don't last as long. But good old fashioned ink on paper is still much more durable and long-lasting than software and electronics, which evlove so quickly bakcwards compatability can't be ensured forever. In 500 years, as long as you can read the language, you can read the same book, but a USB key with today's data storage? No way, it'll be and antique, too different. Having a solid book on a shelf or in a box somewhere is totally more sound way to store the investment, you dig up WAAY old books all the time. But once you've read them once, twice .... what worth is left to them? There are movements of putting used books in plastic sleves and leaving them on park benches, to pass onto the next person. What's the use of a physical book once you're done reading it, apart from having it for future reference?
First of all, ebooks don't smell anything.
I guess physical books will never die because some of them are pieces of art. Objects you cherish because of their physical form. People just like to have them, everybody isn't as utilitarian as you (I do understand your point)
I do have a kindle but mostly for programming books.
On January 13 2012 01:01 Ryndika wrote: If pirating a book is unethical is lending from library too?? MMMMMMMM...?
Hate this argument, libraries pay to be able to lend out those books. Also, every library also lends out music CDs. The reason why you probably think it's not the same is because if you like a CD, you'll want to listen to it for more than a couple weeks, so borrowing one is impractical. For purposes of a discussion on ethics though, borrowing/pirating a book is no different from a CD.
In terms of what supports the producers of the content, buying a used game at GameStop is actually less ethical than borrowing a book from a library.
I wasn't very serious about it because there is many different ethical opinions, wanted to see perspective from other side =D (ofcourse my opinion being that pirating is ethical [note I buy my games]).
In my own personal experiences I felt kind of cheated when I HAD to buy 30e worth book and we opened it ONCE at class. Note it was classes were about subject you don't get homework, can't really remember what it was but some kind of business service. If I had iPad I would maybe pirate books for certain subjects in school.
Ofcourse my own freetime books I still buy in hardcovers and treasure them with love.
Meh the only argument against downloading illegal books is the people who put those books together need money. The fact that the middle man loses money is truly not something I worry too much about.
On January 12 2012 23:36 SolHeiM wrote: Piracy is not the same as stealing, because when you steal a physical object from a store, that's a lost sale. The store has ordered something, and because one item was stolen from their store, they have lost one sale.
Piracy is not a lost sale, because it's a digital copy of something I wouldn't have bought anyway. The only reason I download it is because it's free. I wouldn't be buying anyway.
That is my justification for pirating books, music games and movies.
^ I'll agree with that too in all honesty. I sure as hell wouldn't have paid for most of the games on my computer if that's a good example. I mean half of them are barely worth a few dollars as it is.
Then why do you get to have them on your computer? You have used likely thousands of hours of peoples hard work without compensating them. You wouldn't have paid? Who cares, its not about lost sales, not for me anyway. Money is not everything. That is someones hard work, they have rights over there own work, you not paying for there work is just immoral.
Yes, but it's also my main means of testing whether or not I'd like to actually pay for the game. Torrent, play for a few hours, if it's worth it, I'll consider buying. If it isn't, I'll just delete.
It's wrong but trailers and demos only share so much information about a game to you.
I hope this will enlighten you sooner or later that your way of thinking is naive and not ´really based on any ehtical concept.
Again, there's no clear responsibility (based on the categorical imperative) for paying for _everything_ you read, just some of it. As long as _some_ people pay for stuff they read some or even most of it will survive. You can certainly optimize your actions in a way that can be generalized to the whole population without having to pay for every book you read or every movie you watch.
Damm I can't respond to everything there's too much <3
sitkyan "If you would honestly consider a book heavy (my heaviest book is around 4kg) you should really go to the gym more. " - (: I can only have so many disclaimer clauses in the OP before it gets too long for anyone to bother reading. I used to lug 500pg hardback and 1000pg textbooks around all the time, though they'd fit a lot better into my bag, and give me less back problems, if they were condensed.
vnlegend "Well the paid books are usually better formatted, have ToC, etc. Some of the PDFs or mobi/epub files I've downloaded are missing stuff or have worse reading format. ... [compatability issues]" Tal "The proper formatting + table of contents is HUGE, and I think worth paying for." - See this is EXACTLY why I start threads like this, because this would never have crossed my mind as a concern. Someone complains to be about sound-quality of music or ugly graphics I go :bitch, please: . Even with low quality movies, I don't tolerate complaining about 'ugh the image quality's too low, I can't use/enjoy this' . But your point is a consideration only learnt through experience, that the quality of the production of an eBook is pivotal enough that it can make it unreadable or incomplete. VERY good point, yet another reason to get the HQ stuff.
aers "I would probably buy everything if I could afford to, but I simply find myself reading too much that my budget wouldn't keep up. Shitty excuse, but that's just the way things are. " -See this is why I want to get an eReader, I believe it'll get me accustomed and hooked on reading regularly.
-Libraries aren't free, they've got a cost structure. See, yet again, I hadn't though about it deep enough, thanks guys. Also creating a unified governmental open-access eBook system would be great, but then what do you do with all those authors that struggle. I know, the government pays them all for the rights to all their books, then they convert them all to eBooks and make them universally acessible, cool! SO many problems with this, who do you chose to be fair... and most importantly it acts like a subsidy (can't remember the term for it) where e.g. farmers in France have all their excess produce bought up by the government so they can reach market price. This is nice, but leads to problems of inefficency of labour (paid more than they should for their work) and large stores of un-used goods.
Deleuze "I used to work for a University where the library was 95% digital and students had access to books on their e-readers. In theory this great - every student has a copy of the core text, no overdue books, no damage etc etc - however the reality was awful: publishers were very resistant to releasing e-books in a library format to students as they were effectively doing themselves out of sales, also technical faults routinely down prevent the whole system from functioning, as a result most students had no core texts for their first 1 and a half terms of study. Many were seeking legal action last time I heard, glad I left that amateurish organisation." -Sounds like Ubisoft's anal DRM and people not being able to play legal copies of 'From Dust' cause their gameplay was dependent on shitty infastructure; they had to be constantly connected to the server, then the server was too weak...
-Going open-access is admirable, but it's also a priviledge not all can afford.
-I've decided on a non-colour eReader, to be easy on the eyes. Even so, textbooks or nice glossy picture books/magazines (an atlas, anatomy handbook...) are much better in book form IMO.
HotShizz "I am a starving artist writer type... I've been writing since I was young, I'm 25 now and trying to make a real go as an author. That said, I fully expect if I ever get a book published it will be in electronic format because it's less risk for the publisher (cheaper i.e. needs to sell less copies to be profitable). That said I hope it gets out there, if people download it illegally, fine as long as they read it and enjoy it ... If the entertainment is worth it, buy it. " -c ouf ca come opinion et mode de vie mec, vraiment, chapeaux
Oh and bluQ, you're absolutely right I should read up on just about everything in Wikipedia, it's an amazing resource (: Usually it's a bit more effective if you synthesize the moral structure and apply it to the case, instead if just implying I have no notion of ethics. D'ya wanna TL;DR it for me, preasuuuuuuuu
Well considering that last night i used my kindle to download a load of the "classics" Republic by Plato, Sherlock Holmes by Arthur Conan Doyle etc., all for free LEGALLY from amazon, I don't see the point of illegally downloading anything. The new(er) books should be paid for, at least the ones where the author is still alive, its hard work writing anything, fiction or non-, and they should be compensated for their efforts!
But seriously everyone should know that MANY of the books that you need for lit classes at uni and other things like that are readily available FOR FREE off of legal sites and even through Amazon. They fall under Fair Use, and are generally considered to be educational in nature and written before 1950's... there are alot of options for self-improvement, self-education that are not illegal, I think it would definitely be a good idea to look into those before "pirating" them.
That being said, in a free market economy; yes everyone is going to spend as little as they can get away with spending on anything and everything books included. And if that price just so happens to be free, then that is the price that they will most likely pay. Opportunity being what it is.
My personal opinion on physical books is that they are treasures! Long after the possible destruction of any kind of electrical technology, books and fragments of books will survive, and in a worse case scenario were all technology is gone from the planet they could offer a guide back to civilization and high-technology. They are static the only possible exception to this being that they are made of materials that do degrade over time with improper storage and handling.
But I love books, I always have ever since I was read C.S. Lewis' "Chronicles of Narnia" they quite literally opened up the possiblity for entirely new worlds to exist in my mind and they fairly jumped out of the pages and into my imagination. So for me its a bit of a nostalgia thing but also its pragmatic. Books are amazing, digital or otherwise!
So, if I follow your logic and add in to the fact that authors should be able to live off their publications, does that mean we need to get rid of all libraries?
On January 13 2012 01:40 JustPassingBy wrote: So, if I follow your logic and add in to the fact that authors should be able to live off their publications, does that mean we need to get rid of all libraries?
No. But if it really was that easy, why not just borrow the book from a library? Writing is already a hard and unstable career, don't make it harder to make things that YOU enjoy. When a legal copy is available, I always purchase my ebooks. If you don't, I have no qualms calling you a freeloader. It's not as if authors are all wiping their asses with hundred dollar bills.
I hope this will enlighten you sooner or later that your way of thinking is naive and not ´really based on any ehtical concept.
Again, there's no clear responsibility (based on the categorical imperative) for paying for _everything_ you read, just some of it. As long as _some_ people pay for stuff they read some or even most of it will survive. You can certainly optimize your actions in a way that can be generalized to the whole population without having to pay for every book you read or every movie you watch.
So? Did i say you need to pay for every book? Or did I imply that creating a maxime like Bittman is in no philoshopical view on ethics reasonable(besides crap like Egoism and stuff which is outdated due to the fact most of us agree on human rights)?
Damm I can't respond to everything there's too much <3
sitkyan "If you would honestly consider a book heavy (my heaviest book is around 4kg) you should really go to the gym more. " - (: I can only have so many disclaimer clauses in the OP before it gets too long for anyone to bother reading. I used to lug 500pg hardback and 1000pg textbooks around all the time, though they'd fit a lot better into my bag, and give me less back problems, if they were condensed.
vnlegend "Well the paid books are usually better formatted, have ToC, etc. Some of the PDFs or mobi/epub files I've downloaded are missing stuff or have worse reading format. ... [compatability issues]" Tal "The proper formatting + table of contents is HUGE, and I think worth paying for." - See this is EXACTLY why I start threads like this, because this would never have crossed my mind as a concern. Someone complains to be about sound-quality of music or ugly graphics I go :bitch, please: . Even with low quality movies, I don't tolerate complaining about 'ugh the image quality's too low, I can't use/enjoy this' . But your point is a consideration only learnt through experience, that the quality of the production of an eBook is pivotal enough that it can make it unreadable or incomplete. VERY good point, yet another reason to get the HQ stuff.
aers "I would probably buy everything if I could afford to, but I simply find myself reading too much that my budget wouldn't keep up. Shitty excuse, but that's just the way things are. " -See this is why I want to get an eReader, I believe it'll get me accustomed and hooked on reading regularly.
-Libraries aren't free, they've got a cost structure. See, yet again, I hadn't though about it deep enough, thanks guys. Also creating a unified governmental open-access eBook system would be great, but then what do you do with all those authors that struggle. I know, the government pays them all for the rights to all their books, then they convert them all to eBooks and make them universally acessible, cool! SO many problems with this, who do you chose to be fair... and most importantly it acts like a subsidy (can't remember the term for it) where e.g. farmers in France have all their excess produce bought up by the government so they can reach market price. This is nice, but leads to problems of inefficency of labour (paid more than they should for their work) and large stores of un-used goods.
Deleuze "I used to work for a University where the library was 95% digital and students had access to books on their e-readers. In theory this great - every student has a copy of the core text, no overdue books, no damage etc etc - however the reality was awful: publishers were very resistant to releasing e-books in a library format to students as they were effectively doing themselves out of sales, also technical faults routinely down prevent the whole system from functioning, as a result most students had no core texts for their first 1 and a half terms of study. Many were seeking legal action last time I heard, glad I left that amateurish organisation." -Sounds like Ubisoft's anal DRM and people not being able to play legal copies of 'From Dust' cause their gameplay was dependent on shitty infastructure; they had to be constantly connected to the server, then the server was too weak...
-Going open-access is admirable, but it's also a priviledge not all can afford.
-I've decided on a non-colour eReader, to be easy on the eyes. Even so, textbooks or nice glossy picture books/magazines (an atlas, anatomy handbook...) are much better in book form IMO.
HotShizz "I am a starving artist writer type... I've been writing since I was young, I'm 25 now and trying to make a real go as an author. That said, I fully expect if I ever get a book published it will be in electronic format because it's less risk for the publisher (cheaper i.e. needs to sell less copies to be profitable). That said I hope it gets out there, if people download it illegally, fine as long as they read it and enjoy it ... If the entertainment is worth it, buy it. " -c ouf ca come opinion et mode de vie mec, vraiment, chapeaux
Oh and bluQ, you're absolutely right I should read up on just about everything in Wikipedia, it's an amazing resource (: Usually it's a bit more effective if you synthesize the moral structure and apply it to the case, instead if just implying I have no notion of ethics. D'ya wanna TL;DR it for me, preasuuuuuuuu
If you are too lazy to read the "TL;DR" on wiki I can't help you. And this comment of yours makes you even less serious in terms of arguing. If you are too lazy to read a summed up article on wiki, you really seem to not apreciate the work of such great authors. And if someday you will feel like you will be able to read trough 500 words maybe also take a look at Rawls; must be even more depressing to align your thoughts on his ethical view http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rawls
Artrey "I would always pick a CD over a music download for the same price. Only to rip the CD afterwards and to put it into the shelve. But it feels that I am getting more out of it. If I delete or lose the virtual copy there is always the physical one and vice versa. It's a nice backup concept. I also like books as a collectable and I like the feeling and smell of paper. Yet my Kindle 4 is incredible cool and comfortable to read on as well. " " usage rights to the book" -Same here, that's a good way to put it, and for CD's I feel exactly the same way. If I want to support the artist I buy it with pride, I buy the right to use it.
twofish "For example there are many classic physics text books which are still very relevant today, so there you can just go buy a cheap used book which is 20+ years old." -I've got one (Inorganic Chemistry) that was discarded from the library because the spine was coming off, FREE (: . Shouldn't then these classic go-to's be free. And about Journal articles, amen, so redic.
Nevermind86 "a lot other Sci-fi books that have really changed my thoughts on a long list of things. LONG LIVE PIRACY READING." - There I fixed it for you ^^ See those are exactly the sort of books I want to get in the habit of reading, with an eReader.
Yurie "Like an author releasing book 1 in a series to the public domain, hoping that sparks enough interest to get people into his/her site with direct revenue. There are authors trying this route out now (Monbade from New Federation being one example) and they don't seem to be doing all that well, though they have no real brand, thus not enough followers." interesting, and yes, you won't be getting money by file transfer like you do from HQ imigur pics.
[b] IntoTheHeart "Yes, but it's also my main means of testing whether or not I'd like to actually pay for the game. Torrent, play for a few hours, if it's worth it, I'll consider buying. If it isn't, I'll just delete. It's wrong but trailers and demos only share so much information about a game to you." -I love demos, but demos for books SUCK. If I want to make an investment for something I want to keep in a collection, sure, but I don't have that much recreational money.
Zren 89 "The new(er) books should be paid for, at least the ones where the author is still alive, its hard work writing anything, fiction or non-, and they should be compensated for their efforts! " -Should there be 'fair use' for paying for books, some sort of system where you don't have to pay as much/anything if the author is not really needing it (their decision). Yes, authors can make their material free to access but (see next bit). Also, once they're dead, should they get royalties (I dunno how the law works here). A nice example is the Tolkein foundation, where his nephew, the heir, is a conaisseur of different types of marijhuna and just lives off the royalties of his uncle... Does he deserve it!?
Zren 89 "But seriously everyone should know that MANY of the books that you need for lit classes at uni and other things like that are readily available FOR FREE off of legal sites and even through Amazon. They fall under Fair Use, and are generally considered to be educational in nature and written before 1950's... there are alot of options for self-improvement, self-education that are not illegal, I think it would definitely be a good idea to look into those before "pirating" them."
I think its more relaxing to actually read paper-books, than on a screen or a pad or the special book-ready-things. Also, it feels nice buidling a bookshelf with all the books you read, rather than a folder with bytes.
I pirated many books. I would consider buying them, but in Germany we have something called Buchpreisbindung, which translates roughly to the price of books in stores have to be the same. So if you find a book in one store for 9€ you can buy it online for 9€ too. Unfortunately that principle is used for eBooks too. I would gladly buy eBooks if they were a lot cheaper, considering you can't even sell the read book anymore. But they aren't so i stick with buying books and selling them afterwards or pirating them.
As far as I'm concerned it is publishing companies that are doing the stealing: the same applies to the music industry - we have just grown so accustomed to this way of doing things that it doesn't seem that way. The artist to which all of the credit goes gets mere cents off the dollar for every purchase, while the company collects 95% of the profit. Then of the money that goes to the company, a disproportionate amount of it ends up in the top 5% employees in the hierarchy.
This is at least partially understandable when you actually need the distribution/advertising structure of a publishing company, but with viral information and free distribution made possible by the internet these corporations are dying out, as they should.
It will never be the artists that are under threat from piracy; they are individuals and it is not hard to have a decent wage as a single person profiting from your own work. Will they get rich or not? I don't give a shit, and most of the good ones don't care either.
That said; I don't pirate ebooks, because I can afford to pay for them. But I certainly believe that if you can't, you should be able to read anyway: chalk it up to free advertising basically.
On January 13 2012 03:13 Pesto wrote: As far as I'm concerned it is publishing companies that are doing the stealing: the same applies to the music industry - we have just grown so accustomed to this way of doing things that it doesn't seem that way. The artist to which all of the credit goes gets mere cents off the dollar for every purchase, while the company collects 95% of the profit. Then of the money that goes to the company, a disproportionate amount of it ends up in the top 5% employees in the hierarchy.
This is at least partially understandable when you actually need the distribution/advertising structure of a publishing company, but with viral information and free distribution made possible by the internet these corporations are dying out, as they should.
It will never be the artists that are under threat from piracy; they are individuals and it is not hard to have a decent wage as a single person profiting from your own work. Will they get rich or not? I don't give a shit, and most of the good ones don't care either.
That said; I don't pirate ebooks, because I can afford to pay for them. But I certainly believe that if you can't, you should be able to read anyway: chalk it up to free advertising basically.
This is so untrue. There were several authors who tried to sell their books somewhat on their own but sooner or later returned to the publishers because it was better from a financial view point. I guess you guys underestimate how hard it is to get your book to the read and I don't mean the logicstical part. Anyone of you ever thought about how Harry Potter became so popular?
And on a side note; some of you guys should read trough some explanation what needs to be done to publish a book. It is not just writing; printing; selling.
I believe one's opinions regarding piracy are primarily influenced by norms of their respective country. Perhaps enforcement via legal means will deter people from pirating and grow to believe it is wrong. And vice-versa.
But for me, the issue isn't so black and white and I fall into a very vague grey area. Note that although I'm not loaded by any means I do have disposable income and can well afford to consume materials. The below is what I mean.
To Pirate or not to Pirate?
Pirate Experimental personal 1-time reading Want to learn a program, "______ for dummies" Singleplayer games Music Movies Etc
Not to Pirate? Found out that the book/album/game/movie is actually pretty fuckin good and I know a friend who would love it --> instabuy (multiple copies for family) Whenever there is a "donate" thing for Paypal and I'm in favor of the the material/program/etc then I'll generously donate (i.e $50 for something that's readily free) just to show my appreciation There was a streamer for a sporting event that went for for months (via his multimedia system PPV) --> he had a "buy me a beer" which was 4-5 bux for his work/effort/PPV
That being said, I thought of the ways I consume and found believe that piracy is nor good/evil but appears to be hyperselectivity of consumption due to the rise of the technological saavy generation. Most people outside of my birth cohort +5/-5, they are either extreme pirates or people who fear piracy like no tomorrow. They are both informed, but the attittudes towards it are completely different. Me? I'm in the middle, in all honesty I wouldn't even know if artist X made album Y if it weren't for piracy. Now after listening, it empowers the pirate to make a decision, you can either choose to have it for free or choose that it's worth something to you and you want to show your support.
Same goes for books. Would I know that a certain book had existed if it weren't for piracy? Nope. But after reading it over, it gives me a choice. Was it a good enough book to gift? Was it a good book to keep on my bookshelf amongst my collection? Maybe it was just worth reading over once, or just plain bad. I might not have even finished it because it was not to my tastes.
That to me, is a personal matter and couldn't care less of what others think.
On January 13 2012 03:13 Pesto wrote: As far as I'm concerned it is publishing companies that are doing the stealing: the same applies to the music industry - we have just grown so accustomed to this way of doing things that it doesn't seem that way. The artist to which all of the credit goes gets mere cents off the dollar for every purchase, while the company collects 95% of the profit. Then of the money that goes to the company, a disproportionate amount of it ends up in the top 5% employees in the hierarchy.
This is at least partially understandable when you actually need the distribution/advertising structure of a publishing company, but with viral information and free distribution made possible by the internet these corporations are dying out, as they should.
It will never be the artists that are under threat from piracy; they are individuals and it is not hard to have a decent wage as a single person profiting from your own work. Will they get rich or not? I don't give a shit, and most of the good ones don't care either.
That said; I don't pirate ebooks, because I can afford to pay for them. But I certainly believe that if you can't, you should be able to read anyway: chalk it up to free advertising basically.
This is so untrue. There were several authors who tried to sell their books somewhat on their own but sooner or later returned to the publishers because it was better from a financial view point. I guess you guys underestimate how hard it is to get your book to the read and I don't mean the logicstical part. Anyone of you ever thought about how Harry Potter became so popular?
And on a side note; some of you guys should read trough some explanation what needs to be done to publish a book. It is not just writing; printing; selling.
It is true that having your book advertized by a huge corporation will always be more profitable, but I don't think having the potential of J.K Rowling status authors does anything to improve the quality of the work. As long as you are willing to accept the possibility of having a moderate income that will support your work and not become a billionaire from it, independent distribution should be fine?
Keep in mind that the majority of authors are not successful. From a utilitarian perspective, more authors would benefit without the current production structure; as it simply adds another layer of gatekeepers between you and success beyond the quality of your work and sheer luck.
I'm sure there is a great deal that goes in to publishing a physical book, but we are talking about ebooks here. And yes, I know how to make a PDF. Even one that has links to chapters and shit!
Hey! so @HiTeK532, its virtually free for libraries to circulate books. They are gathered either at bulk price or donated by community members.
And i just picked up a 25$ hard cover copy of Crime and Punishment by Dostoevsky. Not only is it beautifully bound and well published but it's my book and i can add whatever notations i want. As an english student (and a college student in general) i write in my books. a lot. I have books that contain my notes, thoughts and observations cover to cover, every page. I'd say this is the main reason why i'll never switch over to digital literature, but i think people generally appreciate books more than files. A worn in book that i've finished, that i've toted around in a backpack or laptop bag for maybe a month, that i've engrossed myself in for at least an hour a day every day sits seems so much more meaningful on my desk than a recently viewed file on my desktop.
regardless of the differences i've suggested between ebooks and printed text, they are the same intellectual or creative work. Therefore stealing an ebook, in my opinion, would be the same thing as stealing a real book. When we have libraries, institutions of our society dedicated to the spread of free knowledge, i don't understand why anyone would undermine author, publishing company, and whoever else was involved in the production of a book by stealing electronic copies. libraries even have ebooks available for circulation now. In fact, i can go to my local OR college library and find books on how to learn Korean. Stealing (or torrenting) ebooks i think is simply laziness in the digital age.
So in conclusion, i suggest you go support your local librarian and get a membership!
I am fully of the opinion that downloading ebooks originally is stealing and is similar to if you actually went into a shop and stole it.
I also realise it is far easier, and much less risky to do, and have myself downloaded just under 10,000 ebooks and am indifferent at best to the notion that what I am doing is wrong. I simply couldn't care, perhaps could slightly if pushed.
If I were to justify my behaviour (not that I think I need to!) it would probably be in the form of an anti capitalist rant.
If it's for the sake of increased learning and wisdom, why SHOULDN'T I download a bunch of teach-yourself-Korean books?
because not paying for literature means that you aren't supporting the writers and if everyone done it , it would cause becoming a writer to be impossible to do for a livving, and a lack of literature would hurt society in the long run
"I have the ability to do something, therefore it's morally okay for me to do so", is pretty much all you have said. A book is the author's intellectual property and you're paying to be able to see it, simple as that.
If they want what they publish to be free it's their choice, not yours.
On January 13 2012 04:40 XeliN wrote: I am fully of the opinion that downloading ebooks originally is stealing and is similar to if you actually went into a shop and stole it.
I also realise it is far easier, and much less risky to do, and have myself downloaded just under 10,000 ebooks and am indifferent at best to the notion that what I am doing is wrong. I simply couldn't care, perhaps could slightly if pushed.
If I were to justify my behaviour (not that I think I need to!) it would probably be in the form of an anti capitalist rant.
This would essentially be my post here , I sure haven't downloaded 10k books though lol, I know technically its wrong, and that its not supporting the author, but its just much more convenient for me and saves me money. I can't really justify it, nor would I even try because its just me being greedy.
I honestly can't see why people would want to buy hardcover books anymore as anything more than a collectible. Textbooks are even heavier and EXPENSIVE :/
Just my opinion, but there's nothing better than sitting down with an old hardcover copy of one of the classics when reading.
The hardcovers they make today are crappy quality and fall apart too easily (sometimes it seems like paperbacks are more durable anymore) so I agree with those not being worth it. And they're BIG and clunky. Hardcovers used to generally be smaller in length/width of the paper.
I'm a pretty avid reader-- I have probably read around 100 pages a day for the last fifteen years (I'm nineteen now). Okay, I pulled that statistic out of my butt. Whatever. I read a lot.
I have three bookshelves in my room. Each one is about 6 feet tall, 4 feet wide with 6 shelves full of books. That's a lot of books. Take away those shelves, put a Kindle in a corner. It would look rather silly.
Maybe it's because I'm so used to reading from books that I prefer them over reading some sort of electronic format. I enjoy reading TL Final Edits, news, strategy, wiki, whatever on the internet, computer, e-reader. However, when it comes to a novel, I feel that holding the book in your hands, feeling its heft, and then flipping page by page as you progress through the story is part of the reading experience.
My parents bought a Kindle (I use it sometimes) and I like it... to a degree. I understand how its convenient to have a hundred-plus books in a single device. I also applaud Amazon for their great design-- it's small, fairly inexpensive and easy on the eyes. But, pressing a next page button and watching a percent completed bar at the bottom seems so detached. When I read a book, I want to immerse myself in it. These buttons and progress bars add another layer of disconnect with the story, the characters, their hopes dreams conflicts, the plot and the rest of it. And it feels strange.
This applies to textbooks too. I like having the physical thing, and I also like my textbooks new and unused (for college). I don't write in them or anything, but I want a clean copy. I'm by no means rich, but to satisfy my idiosyncracy, I am willing to shell out a few hundred extra bucks. Yeah, not cheap.
Sorry if that was a bit off topic.
Anyways, when Inheritance came out in November, I had minor nerdgasms. I wanted to read it, although I figured it would be pretty much just like Star Wars as it had been for the last three books. So, I planned to go the university bookstore (Barnes and Nobles) right after my last class, get a coffee, find a copy of the book and power through until they kicked me out. Unfortunately (and somewhat surprisingly) the last copy was already gone. Yes, this was a college bookstore. I suppose that many other people wanted to capstone their childhood as I did, but goddammit, why did they have to buy all the copies?
With no other option, I went back to my dorm and got my laptop. After a little while, I found a copy of the book online. I realize this is/was piracy, but I downloaded it and from 9PM to maybe 3AM, I read it. Well written (far as details), plot was full of holes and almost a complete Star Wars rip off. Geez. But since the details were good, it felt like the story moved along nicely. Yeah.
Now here is the issue. I took an electronic copy and read it for free. Well, actually, I/my family had purchased a copy, and it had shipped home. I couldn't wait till frikking Thanksgiving to read it, right (I mean, 10 days+, come on!) ? So I felt it was okay since I had technically already paid for the book. I deleted my electronic copy right afterwards though.
But ignore the fact I had paid what I'll call a "license to use" fee for the book. What would be the difference between me bootlegging a copy from the internet and going to B&N to "borrow" a copy and read it? I did that quite a bit in the past-- I'd go to B&N and sit down the ground and read manga or a book. There were many others there like me, and probably thousands who did it worldwide. Of course, I made purchases from B&N, but probably bought less than 5% of the books I read.
ebooks are easy to pirate and so people will do it.
I think authors should focus on selling nice physical copies of their books. A real book isn't that expensive and is much more comfortable to read. They also also look nice on a shelf in your apartment as others have noted. They make you look smart. Physical books will always have a place, I think the market will just be smaller.
I really only pirate an eBook if I can't find it anywhere else and nowadays it's relatively easy to find any book, whether it be tangible or electronic, through a Google search. There are also tons of sites that have books fairly cheap, so I don't mind paying the money especially since I consider it investing in the author's writing career. Just a few weeks ago I bought Finnegan's Wake and The Private Memoirs and Confessions of a Justified Sinner (both used) for 8 bucks with free shipping.
Regarding textbooks, especially the math and science ones, I could certainly see why people would pirate them. They are extremely expensive, even used. What's worse is if you buy them from the university bookstore and want to return it when the semester is over, you get less than half of your money back. But, at least with me, the same logic applies here. If I absolutely can not find it anywhere, I pirate it.
On January 13 2012 05:42 SpiffD wrote: Some guy at my university just got busted printing an electrodynamics textbook on university printers, lol.
On the bookshelf that's behind me right now, I have over 50 books that got photocopied. All you need to read during a college carrier in my faculty is available in photocopies too.
On January 13 2012 05:42 SpiffD wrote: Some guy at my university just got busted printing an electrodynamics textbook on university printers, lol.
Lol, I had a friend who bought a book from some site, and he got a stack of photocopied pages. It was pretty hilarious.
when i was traveling in vietnam on the beach, they had book vendors who would sell photocopied books. its always fun to see a page or two missing, or pages that are upside down.
the only books i ever DLed were books i couldnt buy in the bookstores anywhere in the country, and their authors were disgustingly rich anyways, so i could survive the guilt somehow
Well this has been fantastic, unfortunately I spent from noon 'till 6 this afternoon convening , so I'm off, but really, thanks for all your replies guys, I've learnt a lot (:
When I can, I'll synthesize all the reasons for and against, into a nice little list, and then we can move onto the bigger topic (universally open free learning). G'night, and thanks for broadening my perspective.
The death of books has been heralded many times, but I don't think it'll die just yet. For me at least, I cannot sit down and read a novel on my screen. I get too distracted, too easily. And yet I can read hours straight with a regular book. No idea how that works.
I don't download books and I don't think I would. However, there's a bigger problem beyond whether or not downloading books are illegal and that is all the DRM and electronic locks that are being put onto it. It's turning a bit into glorified rental with personal accounts and the like. I actually don't buy any hardcovers new (too expensive), I do buy softcovers new, but I mostly frequent second hand bookstores. It seems that publishers are intent on getting rid of the second hand market as well as the ability to lend books to a friend. I understand why there is a concern because a copied file actually duplicates it so its now in two places and there is little motivation to get rid of it.
However, I am convinced one of the most powerful marketing tools is word of mouth personal recommendations combined with actually experiencing the product before buying it. Every single new author I've tried, has been me experiencing the book for free. Usually recommended by a friend and then I lend it from them. When the author comes out with a new book, I'll probably buy that one and buy his old book from the second hand bookstore. Whereas I probably wouldn't have tried it at all. I think one of author Brandon Sanderson's guests to Writing Excuses, a publisher, said maybe 10% of book buyers will actually purchase a book off the shelf without having read a book from that author. Everyone else is buying a book because they've read that author before.
But all this DRM is making it progressively difficult to lend books online. Then there's the issue of extending copyright laws so that we will probably never have books fall into the Public Domain again. The purpose of copyright was to protect authors so they could make monetary gain for their effort so they will continue to write more books. However, copyrights are pushing more and more into the courts of the publishers. Now there certainly is value in having gatekeepers and the job of the editors and line editors is very crucial to creating a quality work. However, once the author has been dead for a sufficient amount of time, they won't be creating any more books and needing any more money. A good portion of the classics have become Public Domain which means you can legally download them onto your device (my brother has been going through all sorts oldies.) But the way things are going, publishers are trying too hard to control the book's copyright.
I've downloaded ebooks of textbooks that I would have had to pay over $100 for. I don't feel a single shred of guilt about it, especially since textbook companies are essentially ripping people off by creating new versions with slight changes that professors require.
I have a kindle and tried out a couple of downloaded books and I also bought books through the wifi service. I feel like for books I casually want to read, I can torrent without feeling badly.
Textbooks, however, will NOT be taken over by e-books imo..it just feels wrong. I need to be able to flip through pages back n forth quickly.
personally, i think ebooks are cheap enough to buy. not a big deal anyways and most of the books i need to read for class are classics and are free anyways.
I don't think physical books will go away for a long time. They have been around for hundreds of years and it does not look like they will be going away anytime soon. As convienient it is to have hundreds of books in a single device, nothing beats instaneously going from page 1 to page (insert 3 digit number here) in sometimes barely a second without having to play around with buttons or scrolls or touch screens.I for one cannot read a brightlit LCD screen for very long. And e-paper just feels fake.
And books smell nice. And feel nice. You can carry it around without worrying about charging it (and who reads multiple novels at the same time without finishing one of them first barring school assignments?). As for getting books for free, there is always public libraries. Sure they are behind sometimes on getting the newest books out there, but thats the price you pay for getting books for free. And friends. Friends are great libraries.
It is completely right man, because downloading (making copies) is NOT stealing. Stealing would be if you go to a shop and take a physical copy with you which is not what you are doing. Don't feel guilty just because of stupid publisher's lobby. Basically piracy is something like regulation of free market, if you don't support as a publisher your customers to get your work easily enough, they will get it in other way (outside of your monopoly). Instead of fighting against e-books, they should support them.
On January 13 2012 16:57 RifleCow wrote: Just like how the music industry has to change so does the book industry;
I hate opinions like this. Why should they change because the world is full of thieves? It's absurd.
Musicians and actors also have other ways of making money (i.e concerts, cinema, theatre etc..), authors just have books unless they're lucky and get a film deal or JK Rowling famous.
On January 13 2012 16:57 RifleCow wrote: Just like how the music industry has to change so does the book industry;
I hate opinions like this. Why should they change because the world is full of thieves? It's absurd.
Musicians and actors also have other ways of making money (i.e concerts, cinema, theatre etc..), authors just have books unless they're lucky and get a film deal or JK Rowling famous.
They have to change because they have to adapt to the digital age. It has NOTHING to do with thieves.
Copying is not stealing FYI. when i copy it the original remains untouched, unlike when i steal something, see the difference?
On January 13 2012 16:57 RifleCow wrote: Just like how the music industry has to change so does the book industry;
I hate opinions like this. Why should they change because the world is full of thieves? It's absurd.
Musicians and actors also have other ways of making money (i.e concerts, cinema, theatre etc..), authors just have books unless they're lucky and get a film deal or JK Rowling famous.
They should change to a business model that works with the current reality of a world "full of thieves" and modern filesharing because not changing does not alter that reality and is likely to be worse for their business long-term than developing a new model to guarantee the revenue stream. A positive change is one that increases both royalty checks and audience. The itunes model, the free-with-attached-ads model, and the pay-what-you-like model all seem to be possible steps forward. It's not absurd, it's good business.
I actually hate reading on a comp/pad so much. My eyes tear up so badly and hurt. Not to mention my attention span suffers. I love books, buying books and the smell of them, and the feel of paper in my hands. Yes a lot of things are getting digitalized or virtualized, but I think books in paper form will still remain the n.1 source for books for at least another 100 years. Books in paper form are one of the things I don't regret spending money on.
By that I say I support the authors by buying books and screw Ebooks =)
The itunes model, the free-with-attached-ads model, and the pay-what-you-like model all seem to be possible steps forward. It's not absurd, it's good business.
Agreed. Profits go up 10x when you deliver digital content hassle free, cheap and available to all. Same can't be said to games though, a 100% digital product being sold at retail box prices to protect greedy retailers.
For me the problem with buying things like music, movies, books, etc. is that they make it a pain in the ass to get it back when you re-format your computer or lose everything you had saved (still haven't got back the stuff from iTunes I actually paid for.. but I'm sure it's really not THAT hard?). That and the fact that it costs money...
I guess if you want to be a good person, pay for the things you'd actually buy if you had to, but if it's something you'd never buy anyway... might as well?
I prefer the physical copy to e-books. I like to be able to take it anywhere I want and jot down notes on it. I have a kindle, ipad, and the new kindle and I use them sometimes for instance if I'm going on a trip and I don't know what I want to bring with me I'll take a digital format that way I don't have to pick, but if I'm studying a specific topic the physical book is much more conducive to my own learning. I'm very tactile even when it comes to reading so I like a pen nearby and the ability to write stuff into it. I know I can write notes with my ipad, but it's not the same and unlike my digital copies, the hardback is something I will revisit to find something. With all that said, there is one advantage to having an e-book and that is the find feature. It beats the hell out of looking for it yourself.
On January 14 2012 01:11 Neo.NEt wrote: For me the problem with buying things like music, movies, books, etc. is that they make it a pain in the ass to get it back when you re-format your computer or lose everything you had saved (still haven't got back the stuff from iTunes I actually paid for.. but I'm sure it's really not THAT hard?). That and the fact that it costs money...
I guess if you want to be a good person, pay for the things you'd actually buy if you had to, but if it's something you'd never buy anyway... might as well?
I've been brainwashed
Why do I feel like the only person in the world who backs anything up? Why would you ever lose everything? Even with a VERY inexpensive setup there's no reason to not backup. You can set that shit up to be completely automated.... Every time I see someone complain about losing info I feel like I'm talking to my grandma.
Textbooks? Nope. Just free public information... Novels and other random/creative stuff? Perhaps. The latter isn't just rewritten material over and over again in different forms...
I hope to god that books survive; I love holding a book in my hand and reading it. To me, it makes it much more enjoyable than reading off a computer screen. Granted, I only used a Kindle once, but I just like the idea of holding a book and flipping its pages. Not sure why, but I just love books.
E-books has it place, as it makes it possible for the author to have a direct line to the purchaser, so there is no middleman.
I've never really been a fan of hardcover books...they are pretty heavy. The only exception is for ones that I really want to keep in good condition (as hardbound/hardcover seems to keep them better). I don't think I've ever pirated a book, actually the thought has honestly never occurred to me as a possibility. Retarded moment by me XD
all the books i have on stanza are downloaded. what can i say? do i wish i could pay for them instead so the author could get credit? sure, but id have to have money first. and im a broke college student so thats that. when i graduate i plan on buying a nice little collection of all the great books i enjoyed for free.
Engineering books cost over 150$. Aerodynamics this semester costs 225$. A solid mechanics book costs 250$. Over my dead body am I paying that. I download them and print them at a Chinese photocopy place that ignores copyright. Charging this much for books is taking advantage of students.
Ebooks are more easily stealable than any other media (just based on their size). Many of them are harder to find because of the shear number of books in print compared to the amount of popular music or movies that are normally downloaded.
Stealing ebooks is no different than any other media. Stealing academic texts is even advisable, seeing as the mark up on those texts is completely outrageous. If I was able to download every textbook I needed, I'd save over a grand a year.
There is still something about reading a book that just doesn't feel right when its in digital form.
Give me a physical book and I'll read it... anything... literally, I'll read it.
Give me a kindle, I'll stop reading after 1 page or so. Even if its a book I really enjoy reading, such as Harry Potter.... It's just not the same!
I do love books, and I love the idea of them being available to more people via the internet, but digital books just aren't for me. Audio books, awesome... give me MP3 audiobooks all day long... I just don't want to read one from a screen. As for paying vs stealing, I've been "lent" books all my life.... I didn't pay for those, the person who bought it finished with it and passed it along to me. So I just see torrenting as an extension of that, though on a much huger scale.
If you are willing to pay for something then pay for it, if you wouldn't have paid for it in the first place then no one is losing money and so everyone is happy anyway.
I believe information is free, and thus if I can obtain the information without hurting anyone or depriving someone of something, I'll do it with no guilt.
I would never steal a book from a bookstore (The paper has value, the labour to put it there has value). But once something is online.. Essentially nobody is hurt, I would never buy what I download unless I like it so much I need a hard copy to be with me when I'm not at my computer.
For example, I downloaded the starcraft2 beta and played against the AI a lot before deciding to buy the game. The game was so good, I wanted the box and the disc, and the battle.net connection of course.
On the flip side, I downloaded an enormous amount of Dungeons and Dragons books, ranging from those long out of print, to current 4th edition stuff. I think 4E sucks dick, but my friends wanted to play it so I had the resources at home to prepare for game day. The "Buy before you try" mentality is just crazy considering the price of these books/softwares, i would much rather try before I buy.
On January 14 2012 05:01 darkscream wrote: Essentially nobody is hurt, I would never buy what I download unless I like it so much I need a hard copy to be with me when I'm not at my computer.
The "Buy before you try" mentality is just crazy considering the price of these books/softwares, i would much rather try before I buy.
I hope you realize these two statements are in conflict with each other.
'Try before I buy' means that if you like it, you buy it.
"I would never buy what I download unless .... I need a hard copy to be with me" ... that isn't 'try before I buy', that is saying, if you like it, you would buy it only if you had to have it with you in a form that wasn't readily available for pirating.
Zren 89 "The new(er) books should be paid for, at least the ones where the author is still alive, its hard work writing anything, fiction or non-, and they should be compensated for their efforts! " -Should there be 'fair use' for paying for books, some sort of system where you don't have to pay as much/anything if the author is not really needing it (their decision). Yes, authors can make their material free to access but (see next bit). Also, once they're dead, should they get royalties (I dunno how the law works here). A nice example is the Tolkein foundation, where his nephew, the heir, is a conaisseur of different types of marijhuna and just lives off the royalties of his uncle... Does he deserve it!?
Zren 89 "But seriously everyone should know that MANY of the books that you need for lit classes at uni and other things like that are readily available FOR FREE off of legal sites and even through Amazon. They fall under Fair Use, and are generally considered to be educational in nature and written before 1950's... there are alot of options for self-improvement, self-education that are not illegal, I think it would definitely be a good idea to look into those before "pirating" them."
I believe that If an author chooses to publish a book with their own hard-earned money then they can in fact give it out for free, after all they wrote it and published it themselves, they are well within their rights to distribute it for free. The problem arises, as many people have pointed out in this thread, when there is a middle man such as a publisher (who understandably wants to get a cut of the profits for the work of publishing the book) and the same goes for recording companies (who want a cut for recording the content of the cd/mp3) independent musical artists and authors have more leeway with what they can and cannot get away with. But if someone is just starting out it is VERY VERY difficult to amass enough capital to distribute your product/work on any kind of large scale (with hard copies that is, although burning a cd of your work is cheap as hell compared to just 10 years ago). This is becoming less and less true as mediums like youtube and soundcloud become more prevalent and see more use worldwide, sharing your talents with others has become easier than ever and that is why the music "industry" and the publishers rail so hard against piracy and illegal copies of books and music videos on media sites, because it becomes harder to extract as much profit as they have been able to for so long, they see the way of life that they have been so heavily invested in for so long, coming to and end and they are fighting it tooth and nail.
Also as an occasional connoisseur (what a French fucking word!) of the sweet mary jane I can't say as I really blame the guy for enjoying the money that roles in :/ But whether or not he actually deserves the proceeds from the sales of the books and other media is a legal question that I am not really qualified to answer in any meaningful way. But my opinion is that everyone should have a purpose outside of just indulging one's self and enjoying the work of their fore-fathers, but perhaps he does something else with a portion of the proceeds, a charity organization and what-not?
Tl;DR middle-man organizations in all media industries as they have worked in the past are going to radically change with the advent of the technology that myself and my peers (you guys!) now take for granted youtube, soundcloud, amazon etc. Tolkien's nephew smokes pot, tha'ts no big deal, but I don't know if he really deserves the money he gets from the sale of his ancestor's work(s).
If it's for the sake of increased learning and wisdom, why SHOULDN'T I download a bunch of teach-yourself-Korean books?
because not paying for literature means that you aren't supporting the writers and if everyone done it , it would cause becoming a writer to be impossible to do for a livving, and a lack of literature would hurt society in the long run
If I'm not reading it I'm still not supporting the author... If I read it I can recommend it AND support author. If you really like the book most people probably buy it in hardcovers (assuming from my experiences from other people in this thread and real life). Lack of literature just can't happen but too expensive literature and culture SURE can happen and may happen with these SOPA and ACTA laws. That will definitely hurt society.
On January 13 2012 16:57 RifleCow wrote: Just like how the music industry has to change so does the book industry;
I hate opinions like this. Why should they change because the world is full of thieves? It's absurd.
Musicians and actors also have other ways of making money (i.e concerts, cinema, theatre etc..), authors just have books unless they're lucky and get a film deal or JK Rowling famous.
They have to change because they have to adapt to the digital age. It has NOTHING to do with thieves.
Copying is not stealing FYI. when i copy it the original remains untouched, unlike when i steal something, see the difference?
I still buy my books as books because I like the ink, the pages, the process. I like browsing book stores and seeing what they have before buying something. I like the system. However regarding piracy I take the same stance for books as I do for dvds, games and music. If you make a quality product available for a reasonable price with a good distribution network then people will, in general, choose to pay for it over pirating it. This is the model that itunes is built on (to an extent). It's not that people don't want to pay for things, it's that piracy offers a simple, DRM free file to you wherever you want it. If publishers take the piss, trying to sell a digital copy for the same as a highstreet hardback then people don't like it.
I buy books when possible, except for text books. I don't feel the least bit of sympathy for the absolute scam that textbooks are - printing "new editions" with little to no changes and marking up the price. I hope they go out of business.
I don't really like reading stuff on my computer, but it is quite enjoyable on the kindle. It doesn't bother my eyes in the same way that the computer does. E-books are the future.
Personally I like the feel of turning pages and stuff. There's nothing quite like reading a physical book. However, the argument of having eBooks instead of a ton of heavy lumps to carry around is right. But buy them, piracy laws are there for a reason
On January 13 2012 16:57 RifleCow wrote: Just like how the music industry has to change so does the book industry;
I hate opinions like this. Why should they change because the world is full of thieves? It's absurd.
Musicians and actors also have other ways of making money (i.e concerts, cinema, theatre etc..), authors just have books unless they're lucky and get a film deal or JK Rowling famous.
They have to change because they have to adapt to the digital age. It has NOTHING to do with thieves.
Copying is not stealing FYI. when i copy it the original remains untouched, unlike when i steal something, see the difference?
i also hate opinions like this.
I hate people like you. You are still committing a crime. You are still a P.O.S.. Grow up and pay for the crap you use. Just because the e-nerds of the world decided to create a new term to make themselves feel better about committing a crime, you are still taking something you do not deserve to have. Whether it be bits or paper, you did not pay for it.
and to add, YOU are not copying anything. To do so YOU would need to original copy.
I am currently reading an illegal e-copy of the Wheel of Time series. However, I have all the hard copies, they just happen to be in another country (at my parents' place). I consider my action both legal and ethically correct: I just don't feel like lugging 11 1000-page books around, but I do own them. I consider this the same as downloading songs rather than ripping the CD myself (except that creating a decent e-book without the source text is a lot harder than ripping a CD)
On January 15 2012 08:44 Acrofales wrote: I am currently reading an illegal e-copy of the Wheel of Time series. However, I have all the hard copies, they just happen to be in another country (at my parents' place). I consider my action both legal and ethically correct: I just don't feel like lugging 11 1000-page books around, but I do own them. I consider this the same as downloading songs rather than ripping the CD myself (except that creating a decent e-book without the source text is a lot harder than ripping a CD)
Hopefully books will follow the way of DVDs/Blu-rays and come with a digital copy code so you can get one via regular avenues.
For me personally, I get super distracted while reading on a computer. For instance, I'm supposed to be reading a paper which I have a .pdf of right now but I'm posting on TL
There's something to be said for being able to put your own notes in the margins. If you don't do this to books I guess it doesn't matter to you but I have yet to find a really nice solution to marking up digital books in djvu/pdf. I read mostly math books for my research and writing quick notes on the side to why something is true in a proof can save me 2 hours when I go look at it 6 months later and don't remember why an argument works.
Morality: I don't really think there's much of a point in discussing this since it's exactly like pirating music. If you're okay stealing music you're probably okay stealing books and vice versa.
EPT
