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Active: 5104 users

Pagan wins human rights polygamy case

Forum Index > General Forum
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Celloist
Profile Joined June 2011
447 Posts
December 18 2011 15:13 GMT
#1
There is an interesting news and court case that I had been following in the UK these past few weeks.

The story touches on multiple issues pertaining to family, law, human rights, and religious orientation. The story goes that an 25 year old American woman named Emily DiSanto, is living with a couple, the Caulfields, in UK - as a girlfriend to the husband. Their family, has two children, one to each woman.

The UK Home Office has orders to deport the American due to polygamy but DiSanto won the case based on "human rights" consideration, specifically her right to live where she chooses as can be supported by her religious orientations. The three, DiSanto and the Cauldfields are pagans, specifically Odinist. The Cauldfields claim that it is forbidden for them to divorce (although Odinic Rights, UK Odin sect, allows divorce, so it is not knows what sect or variation the couple practice).

This has been the crucial circumstance that reversed the Home Office initial orders, and now allows DiSanto to stay in the UK, despite polygamy being illegal in the country. (There is so much to this story so please read the full report below or browse the dailies if you're in UK or EU.)

Are there any lawyers, law students, or anyone well-versed in the philosophy of Law here in TL? How does this affect the legal philosophy governing ponencias on culture-based cases? More importantly, how will this affect the multitude of other cases of immigration in the UK. Will this set a dangerous precedent to future cases given the ambivalence it created in the spirit of existing laws? Or is it a liberator of unchecked biases that found its way into law?

+ Show Spoiler +
Source: UK Telegraph

Pagan wins 'family life' human rights case
An American woman who worships Norse gods has won the right to stay in Britain because of her “family life” with her boyfriend and his wife.

Home Office officials told Emily DiSanto, 25, that they would not grant her permission to stay in Britain because the law bans what are in effect polygamous relationships.

But now she has won an extraordinary legal case in which she was allowed to remain here on the basis of her human right to family life.

The 25-year-old now shares Alan and Anne-Marie Caulfield’s marital home in south-east London with his two children – one by each of the women.

The American's lawyer told the court that their religious beliefs bar the Caulfields from divorcing.

Immigration judges were also told that forcing her to leave the country would affect the wellbeing of Mrs Caulfield’s son, as well as her own young daughter.

The case is the latest example of how human rights laws are being used to overturn the decisions of civil servants and ministers in immigration cases in what critics say are dubious circumstances.

It comes as pressure mounts on the Government to reform human rights laws, which many Conservative backbenchers say are threatening to make permanent and undemocratic changes to the rule of law in Britain.

The latest case shows the definition of family life is now widening far beyond the conventional couple with children and has implications for immigrants who believe in polygamy, which is still practised in parts of the Muslim world and – illegally – by breakaway branches of the Mormon religions in the United States.

Miss DiSanto’s application succeeded after the Home Office dropped its objection on the grounds of bigamy, and she made two appeals.

In the course of the appeals, her lawyer said the Caulfields no longer had a sexual relationship but could not divorce on religious grounds, as all three worship the Norse gods, including Odin and Thor.

Odinists claim to follow the beliefs practised by Vikings in Britain and Scandinavia, and some Anglo-Saxons in Britain, before Christianity became the sole religion in the course of the Dark Ages.

Followers worship Odin, the chief god of Norse mythology and worship in groups known as Hearths, performing ceremonies called Blothars in which their gods are honoured by drinking mead – an alcoholic drink made from honey – from an animal horn and reciting poetry.

The main branch of British Odinism – the Odinic Rite – does permit divorce, but it is unclear if the three follow its beliefs or have their own variation on them.

It is believed civil servants simply could not prove Miss DiSanto was involved in polygamy when they tried to fight her appeal.

Ian Macdonald QC, president of the Immigration Law Practitioners’ Association, said: “There is no law against threesomes. For many people such a thing may be morally objectionable but it is not unlawful.

“I think the original decision to cite polygamy as a reason to refuse permission was probably that of a junior official which, further up the chain, was recognised to be unsustainable.

“It would have been kicked out by any court.”

Miss DiSanto, from Chicago, arrived in Britain on a visitor’s visa in December that year, already pregnant with Mr Caulfield’s baby. They met in April 2008, but it is not known how.

She gave birth to a daughter in July the following year and now lives with Mr Caulfield, 29, and his 28-year-old wife, who works as a nanny, in a three-bedroomed semi-detached property in Eltham, south-east London.

When her visa expired, she applied for permission to remain and claimed her family life would be disrupted if she was forced to leave.

The Home Office pointed out that she was at least three months’ pregnant with Mr Caulfield’s child when she came to Britain, which “cast doubt on your intention to leave in time”, and refused her application.

Officials said their decision was justified because “polygamy is illegal in the UK and the Secretary of State is entitled to prevent de facto situations arising which are akin to polygamous marriage”.

Miss DiSanto launched an appeal, which the Government won.

The American citizen then brought another appeal to the Upper Tribunal of the Immigration and Asylum Chamber.

There, judges were told Mr and Mrs Caulfield were no longer living as man and wife, but continued to share a home because their Odinist beliefs prevent them from divorcing.

Her lawyer argued the judge failed to take into account how their family life would be affected if she was required to go back to the United States and make a new visa application.

Upper Tribunal Judges Bernard Dawson and Catriona Jarvis ruled that it would be disproportionate to require her to leave Britain.

All three declined to comment on the court’s ruling.

A Home Office spokesman said: “We are disappointed by the court’s decision in this case.

“For too long Article 8 has been used to place the family rights of immigration offenders above the rights of the British public.

“This is why we will change the immigration rules to reinforce the public interest in seeing those who have breached our immigration laws removed from this country.”

The 2001 census recorded 40,000 pagans in Britain but it is not known how many of those categorised themselves as Odinist.


The Messiah Cometh!
mdb
Profile Blog Joined February 2003
Bulgaria4059 Posts
December 18 2011 15:17 GMT
#2
I wonder why polygamy is illegal
Nightfall.589
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada766 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-18 15:20:38
December 18 2011 15:19 GMT
#3
On December 19 2011 00:17 mdb wrote:
I wonder why polygamy is illegal


Two reasons.

1. Kids occasionally getting married off to cult leaders.
2. Mainstream religious organisations feel insecure about anything besides the concept of heterosexual monogamous marriage.
Proof by Legislation: An entire body of (sort-of) elected officials is more correct than all of the known laws of physics, math and science as a whole. -Scott McIntyre
theBALLS
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Singapore2935 Posts
December 18 2011 15:21 GMT
#4
On December 19 2011 00:17 mdb wrote:
I wonder why polygamy is illegal

Not for Islam.

Up to 4 wives you can have, at least in my side of the globe.
If you lose the stick, you'll always have theBALLS.
doubled
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden111 Posts
December 18 2011 15:24 GMT
#5
On December 19 2011 00:17 mdb wrote:
I wonder why polygamy is illegal

There is a very good reason polygamy is illegal. If it is not, we end up with the same situation as with money, 1% of the men would have more than 50% of the women. And this is also what happened in ancient societies, leaders would have harems of hundreds of women while farmers would be single for their entire life. This is not a stable ground for a society. Monogamy makes sure that everybody at least has the potential to get a mate.
Cubu
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
1171 Posts
December 18 2011 15:24 GMT
#6
I think this goes against the nature of what marriage is truely supposed to be, a formal union between a man and a woMAN, not woMEN.
Skilledblob
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany3392 Posts
December 18 2011 15:25 GMT
#7
On December 19 2011 00:21 theBALLS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2011 00:17 mdb wrote:
I wonder why polygamy is illegal

Not for Islam.

Up to 4 wives you can have, at least in my side of the globe.


isn't it more like you can have as many wives as you want as long as you can give every wife the same support?
Keyboard Warrior
Profile Joined December 2011
United States1178 Posts
December 18 2011 15:27 GMT
#8
Very odd news indeed? Im pretty sure this is the first of its kind, right?
Not your regular Keyboard Warrior ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
HwangjaeTerran
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Finland5967 Posts
December 18 2011 15:27 GMT
#9
There is no doubt about the womans rights as of now.
I'm not a law student but this either forces changes to immigrant laws or marriage laws that is for sure.
Also it should not be legal anywhere to make exceptions for religious people only.
That is fucking retarded. Makes effectively anyone else second grade citizens.
There is a system like that in Finland, and the fact it's not talked about makes me not even give a chance to our politicians.

Therefore I doubt it's allowed to stay like this, governments don't like letting their grasp on peoples lives and freedoms to slip.
https://steamcommunity.com/id/*tlusernamehere*/
Avius
Profile Joined October 2007
Iraq1796 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-18 15:29:49
December 18 2011 15:29 GMT
#10
On December 19 2011 00:24 doubled wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2011 00:17 mdb wrote:
I wonder why polygamy is illegal

There is a very good reason polygamy is illegal. If it is not, we end up with the same situation as with money, 1% of the men would have more than 50% of the women. And this is also what happened in ancient societies, leaders would have harems of hundreds of women while farmers would be single for their entire life. This is not a stable ground for a society. Monogamy makes sure that everybody at least has the potential to get a mate.


I never thought about it this way, but this makes absolute sense. Women are naturally drawn to men of power, so basically every normal guy would be left to hang.

I'm not for or against polygamy actually, because I don't care how people choose to live their lives if it has no effect on mine anyway, but from this PoV it seems like it makes sense that polygamy has been declared illegal.

Not sure if this is the actual reason as to why it is illegal.

As for the case described in the OP, I'm not quite sure. I'm neither in Law nor Philosophical Arts but for me personally, being one dumb grunt in billions, I don't really care what those pagans do. It could trigger a "why them and not us" attitude from other people, but I can't comment on that.

And tbh, when I read the title I just saw the Pagan and thought "WOW ULTIMA 8: PAGAN". Such a good game.
aka. Samael
HwangjaeTerran
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Finland5967 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-18 15:38:35
December 18 2011 15:30 GMT
#11
On December 19 2011 00:19 Nightfall.589 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2011 00:17 mdb wrote:
I wonder why polygamy is illegal


Two reasons.

1. Kids occasionally getting married off to cult leaders.
2. Mainstream religious organisations feel insecure about anything besides the concept of heterosexual monogamous marriage.


It certainly isn't stopping cults from destroying children.
And religious organizations should have no say on people who don't belong in their cult.

That's like Apple suing you for violating user rights for services you haven't used.

On December 19 2011 00:24 doubled wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2011 00:17 mdb wrote:
I wonder why polygamy is illegal

There is a very good reason polygamy is illegal. If it is not, we end up with the same situation as with money, 1% of the men would have more than 50% of the women. And this is also what happened in ancient societies, leaders would have harems of hundreds of women while farmers would be single for their entire life. This is not a stable ground for a society. Monogamy makes sure that everybody at least has the potential to get a mate.


So marriage is just a system to force women act against their nature?
LOL
But well I guess if prostitution was legalized 80% of men wouldn't even give shit about a stable sex partner.


But that would be just guessing, also you are making theories about things we have very little experience of in the modern western world. In the societies where polygamy is normal marriage is rarely invoked by the women?
https://steamcommunity.com/id/*tlusernamehere*/
Keyboard Warrior
Profile Joined December 2011
United States1178 Posts
December 18 2011 15:31 GMT
#12
On December 19 2011 00:24 doubled wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2011 00:17 mdb wrote:
I wonder why polygamy is illegal

There is a very good reason polygamy is illegal. If it is not, we end up with the same situation as with money, 1% of the men would have more than 50% of the women. And this is also what happened in ancient societies, leaders would have harems of hundreds of women while farmers would be single for their entire life. This is not a stable ground for a society. Monogamy makes sure that everybody at least has the potential to get a mate.

Are you saying women just want money?
Not your regular Keyboard Warrior ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Tuthur
Profile Joined July 2010
France985 Posts
December 18 2011 15:33 GMT
#13
On December 19 2011 00:31 Keyboard Warrior wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2011 00:24 doubled wrote:
On December 19 2011 00:17 mdb wrote:
I wonder why polygamy is illegal

There is a very good reason polygamy is illegal. If it is not, we end up with the same situation as with money, 1% of the men would have more than 50% of the women. And this is also what happened in ancient societies, leaders would have harems of hundreds of women while farmers would be single for their entire life. This is not a stable ground for a society. Monogamy makes sure that everybody at least has the potential to get a mate.

Are you saying women just want money?

No, he's saying more than 50% of the women just want money.
Vivax
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
22408 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-18 15:37:54
December 18 2011 15:34 GMT
#14
The "poor men left single" argument only applies to the women powerful people would desire.

If you let that process advance over a few generations, you would probably get powerful beatiful people and ugly poor people.
That said, with polygamy applied, humanity would develop a huge classist society.

Just a few thoughts.

Edit: And yes, women are very interested in your socioeconomic status as a man, and a waist-to-hip ratio of 0.90 lol, being clothed in an expensive way makes you reasonably more attractive to them.

I can't say if it's innate though, there are societies ruled by women...where men have low socioeconomic status, one of them is in mexico. You can find it on youtube.
theBALLS
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Singapore2935 Posts
December 18 2011 15:37 GMT
#15
On December 19 2011 00:25 Skilledblob wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2011 00:21 theBALLS wrote:
On December 19 2011 00:17 mdb wrote:
I wonder why polygamy is illegal

Not for Islam.

Up to 4 wives you can have, at least in my side of the globe.


isn't it more like you can have as many wives as you want as long as you can give every wife the same support?

Nope your supply maxes out at 4/4.

Doesn't matter if you're muling on 3 gold bases or you have mined out your main + expos with no probes left.

Anyone, rich or poor can have 4 wives, so long consent is given by the other wives.
If you lose the stick, you'll always have theBALLS.
Haemonculus
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
United States6980 Posts
December 18 2011 15:42 GMT
#16
On December 19 2011 00:24 doubled wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2011 00:17 mdb wrote:
I wonder why polygamy is illegal

There is a very good reason polygamy is illegal. If it is not, we end up with the same situation as with money, 1% of the men would have more than 50% of the women. And this is also what happened in ancient societies, leaders would have harems of hundreds of women while farmers would be single for their entire life. This is not a stable ground for a society. Monogamy makes sure that everybody at least has the potential to get a mate.

Polygamy laws are the only thing stopping me from shacking up with some millionaire and being a concubine, that's for sure.
I admire your commitment to being *very* oily
flowSthead
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
1065 Posts
December 18 2011 15:44 GMT
#17
On December 19 2011 00:24 doubled wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2011 00:17 mdb wrote:
I wonder why polygamy is illegal

There is a very good reason polygamy is illegal. If it is not, we end up with the same situation as with money, 1% of the men would have more than 50% of the women. And this is also what happened in ancient societies, leaders would have harems of hundreds of women while farmers would be single for their entire life. This is not a stable ground for a society. Monogamy makes sure that everybody at least has the potential to get a mate.


That's a bold claim. Do you have proof for that?
"You can be creative but I will crush it under the iron fist of my conservative play." - Liquid`Tyler █ MVP ■ MC ■ Boxer ■ Grubby █
GoBackToGo
Profile Joined July 2010
187 Posts
December 18 2011 15:51 GMT
#18
On December 19 2011 00:24 doubled wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2011 00:17 mdb wrote:
I wonder why polygamy is illegal

There is a very good reason polygamy is illegal. If it is not, we end up with the same situation as with money, 1% of the men would have more than 50% of the women. And this is also what happened in ancient societies, leaders would have harems of hundreds of women while farmers would be single for their entire life. This is not a stable ground for a society. Monogamy makes sure that everybody at least has the potential to get a mate.


i think u are right. instead of not meddling with whoever wants to live with whom and how many, its good that rules like that basically force people to marry others that they wouldn't want to marry under normal circumstances. society basically says you can't marry someone who is married already and it also says that one HAS to marry. the later may not be an explicit rule, it exists nonetheless. why not put guns to peoples heads so that everyone gets married (once!).

/irony off

so instead of fixing the problem that there may be / could be only a small percentage of people who are the only ones able to grant a sophisticated live to their mates due to the way economics work, your suggestion is to basically leave the economic imbalance untouched and instead make sure that rich people only get one mate, and the poor will find themselves other poor mates thereby reproducing given economical imbalances.
Vore210
Profile Joined January 2011
Ireland256 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-18 16:00:41
December 18 2011 15:59 GMT
#19
On December 19 2011 00:24 Cubu wrote:
I think this goes against the nature of what marriage is truely supposed to be, a formal union between a man and a woMAN, not woMEN.


Don't be so naive. Marriage as an institution has changed innumerable times down the ages. For most of the last few thousand years it's been constantly used as a means to solidify political and monetary ties between families. Only very recently has it been to be solely in the domain of two (and occasionally more) people who love eachother.

Marriage has no "sanctity" or hard-set rules, only the society in which it happens determines its role.

It's an interesting story though.
Light a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett
Derez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Netherlands6068 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-18 16:05:14
December 18 2011 16:04 GMT
#20
Isn't the general problem with polygamy that, in it essence, it is not an equal relationship between husband(s) and wife/wives. I mean, when we talk about polygamy we are (in 99% of the cases) talking about men with multiple wives, where it only reinforces subjugation. You're only one of my wives, but I'm your only husband.

I have no problem with the 'community' version, where lets more then 2 people all marry eachother and there is a measure of equality, but that's not what we are talking about when discussing polygamy.
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