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On December 23 2011 09:22 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 22:00 DoubleReed wrote:No, it is not hard to feel jealous about someone you love who also love each other. This is completely wrong. I don't really understand why you think that would have any kind of exception. Jealousy is instinctual. I'm not saying polyamorous relationships can't work, because they can. What I'm saying is that jealousy has to be deprogrammed. As noted by frogrubdown, my point is that it's pretty much impossible to feel jealous about two people banging each other when you're banging both of them. The closest example I can draw for a heterosexual male (which I assume you are given the typical TL demographics), is that you would never be jealous if two girls you're sleeping with are also doing each other. Similarly, a heterosexual female will not feel jealous if two guys she's sleeping with also sleep with each other. The same extends to a bisexual male/female sleeping with any two people, or a homosexual male/female sleeping with two other people of the same sex. Unless you have extreme issues with jealousy/possesiveness, it simply doesn't make sense to find two of your lovers doing each other anything except frickin' hot.
I addressed this earlier. That's more of the fact that it's harder to feel jealous of a member of the opposite sex. It really has nothing to do with the mutualness of the relationship.
Consider being one of the two girls in that relationship. Oh sure, I'm having sex with both of the boy and the other girl, but shit happens and I perceive for whatever reason that he prefers her to me. That's really all it takes. And those kinds of feelings stress the relationship. Instinct and emotions isn't logic. You can have contradictory emotions about other people. You can resent and love a person at the same time.
I don't know why you think that requires extreme issues with jealousy at all.
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Does anyone know some more information about this Pagan religion?
I'm very interested to see how their doctrine ties in to a polygamous lifestyle.
Also, could anyone here actually who has studied Islam shed some clarification on their views on polygamy?
I mean, I know that some interpretations were applied in this thread, but can someone explain the actual verse?
+ Show Spoiler +And if you fear that you cannot act equitably towards orphans, then marry such women as seem good to you, two and three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice (between them), then (marry) only one or what your right hands possess; this is more proper, that you may not deviate from the right course. (4th sur 3rd verse) Taken from: http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/koran/browse.html
EDIT: grammar errors
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On December 23 2011 11:49 DoubleReed wrote:Consider being one of the two girls in that relationship. Oh sure, I'm having sex with both of the boy and the other girl, but shit happens and I perceive for whatever reason that he prefers her to me. That's really all it takes. And those kinds of feelings stress the relationship. Instinct and emotions isn't logic. You can have contradictory emotions about other people. You can resent and love a person at the same time.
You're looking at the situation using certain perceptions you have of girls, which are in turn based on the majority of girls, who are heteronormative. Your assumptions fall apart when the girls in question are actually bisexual and love each other, in which case the situation resembles the one in which a heteronormative guy has no problems with his two female lovers doing each other.
Use google to do some research on polyamory. Take a look at, say, the experiences of people on the polyamory subreddit. Read The Ethical Slut.
Until you actually have some information to work with, all you're doing is generalizing based on your own limited experiences.
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On December 25 2011 09:31 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 11:49 DoubleReed wrote:Consider being one of the two girls in that relationship. Oh sure, I'm having sex with both of the boy and the other girl, but shit happens and I perceive for whatever reason that he prefers her to me. That's really all it takes. And those kinds of feelings stress the relationship. Instinct and emotions isn't logic. You can have contradictory emotions about other people. You can resent and love a person at the same time. You're looking at the situation using certain perceptions you have of girls, which are in turn based on the majority of girls, who are heteronormative. Your assumptions fall apart when the girls in question are actually bisexual and love each other, in which case the situation resembles the one in which a heteronormative guy has no problems with his two female lovers doing each other. Use google to do some research on polyamory. Take a look at, say, the experiences of people on the polyamory subreddit. Read The Ethical Slut. Until you actually have some information to work with, all you're doing is generalizing based on your own limited experiences.
Well no. I'm mostly repeating other things I've read about polyamory, as I have no actual experience on the matter. So yea, if you say so. I certainly have no idea.
Not everybody gets equally jealous anyway. Some people don't even get jealous. And even if you are a very jealous person, it's not like that's something you can't change.
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On December 19 2011 00:24 doubled wrote:There is a very good reason polygamy is illegal. If it is not, we end up with the same situation as with money, 1% of the men would have more than 50% of the women. And this is also what happened in ancient societies, leaders would have harems of hundreds of women while farmers would be single for their entire life. This is not a stable ground for a society. Monogamy makes sure that everybody at least has the potential to get a mate.
Wow that is certainly an interesting reason. Weird. I never thought of it like that. Women are like money and polygamists are the 1%.
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Since when religious law can override civil law?
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score one for uk and personal and religious freedom. State has no business in anything like that.
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On December 25 2011 10:15 Divergence wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 00:24 doubled wrote:On December 19 2011 00:17 mdb wrote:
I wonder why polygamy is illegal There is a very good reason polygamy is illegal. If it is not, we end up with the same situation as with money, 1% of the men would have more than 50% of the women. And this is also what happened in ancient societies, leaders would have harems of hundreds of women while farmers would be single for their entire life. This is not a stable ground for a society. Monogamy makes sure that everybody at least has the potential to get a mate. Wow that is certainly an interesting reason. Weird. I never thought of it like that. Women are like money and polygamists are the 1%.
But he is wrong. No society ever had 1% with 50% of the women. Maybe some kings had 20 wives tops in ancient times but by far the standard relations have always been one man one woman and no law has ever changed polygamy anyway other than in contract. There have been mistresses since forever too. I'd rather have people up front and open and with full legal rights polygamy would allow for.
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On December 19 2011 00:24 doubled wrote:There is a very good reason polygamy is illegal. If it is not, we end up with the same situation as with money, 1% of the men would have more than 50% of the women. And this is also what happened in ancient societies, leaders would have harems of hundreds of women while farmers would be single for their entire life. This is not a stable ground for a society. Monogamy makes sure that everybody at least has the potential to get a mate.
Haha I hope youre not serious dude. :D
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Sweden33719 Posts
On December 19 2011 00:42 Haemonculus wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 00:24 doubled wrote:On December 19 2011 00:17 mdb wrote:
I wonder why polygamy is illegal There is a very good reason polygamy is illegal. If it is not, we end up with the same situation as with money, 1% of the men would have more than 50% of the women. And this is also what happened in ancient societies, leaders would have harems of hundreds of women while farmers would be single for their entire life. This is not a stable ground for a society. Monogamy makes sure that everybody at least has the potential to get a mate. Polygamy laws are the only thing stopping me from shacking up with some millionaire and being a concubine, that's for sure.
Don't be like that.
There's enough millionaires out there for you to get one of your very own!!
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On December 19 2011 00:42 Haemonculus wrote:
Hide nested quote -
On December 19 2011 00:24 doubled wrote:
On December 19 2011 00:17 mdb wrote:
I wonder why polygamy is illegal
There is a very good reason polygamy is illegal. If it is not, we end up with the same situation as with money, 1% of the men would have more than 50% of the women. And this is also what happened in ancient societies, leaders would have harems of hundreds of women while farmers would be single for their entire life. This is not a stable ground for a society. Monogamy makes sure that everybody at least has the potential to get a mate.
Polygamy laws are the only thing stopping me from shacking up with some millionaire and being a concubine, that's for sure.
Well i think 50 million women out there think the same,but if money is the only reason, i don´t think this would be a stable relationship am i rite?
iIf not its prostituition with a higher money lvl or not?
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On December 19 2011 01:12 darkscream wrote:
let people do whatever they want, government should stay the fuck out of the bedroom
My thoughts exactly.
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On December 26 2011 16:52 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2011 10:15 Divergence wrote:On December 19 2011 00:24 doubled wrote:On December 19 2011 00:17 mdb wrote:
I wonder why polygamy is illegal There is a very good reason polygamy is illegal. If it is not, we end up with the same situation as with money, 1% of the men would have more than 50% of the women. And this is also what happened in ancient societies, leaders would have harems of hundreds of women while farmers would be single for their entire life. This is not a stable ground for a society. Monogamy makes sure that everybody at least has the potential to get a mate. Wow that is certainly an interesting reason. Weird. I never thought of it like that. Women are like money and polygamists are the 1%. But he is wrong. No society ever had 1% with 50% of the women. Maybe some kings had 20 wives tops in ancient times but by far the standard relations have always been one man one woman and no law has ever changed polygamy anyway other than in contract. There have been mistresses since forever too. I'd rather have people up front and open and with full legal rights polygamy would allow for.
Some quick googlin' shows "20 wives tops" is a severe understatement. King Lukengu, supposedly has/had 800 wives. I'm sure you can find more excessive examples once you start digging through time.
Nevertheless, I doubt this is the reason polygamy is being prohibited (although I like his idea of a mono-economy, everyone only get's 1 Euro). The biggest issue I see, would be that things tend to get messy, especially in a society that strives for gender equality (hence excluding patriarchal solutions as, for example, seen in the Islam world).
Some questions I ask myself, not being too well versed in the science of polygamy;
- Are two wives married to the same husband considered married to each other?
- If one of my wives decides to marry another husband, will all my wives be considered married to said husband? More important yet - will I be? This obviously seems unlikely, but how would our relation to be described? If it's not the case, what happens to the socially critically important entity of "family"? Perhaps I'm missing something, but the options seem pretty black and white - either we have families, or a relation between two individuals is just that. In any case, jumping ahead, "family" seems to contradict "polygamy", thus leading to the question what would happen to the children in such a society..?
- What happens to the material aspect of marriage (i.e. the shared home, etc.)? Especially in the case of a divorce, how will ownership be handled? If I have 1 wife, she get's half the house, if I have 2 wives, she gets one third? Also, do her additional relationships play a role in this?
- Too many questions. Losing track of thoughts.
If anyone could help me solve these issues, for a start, in a modern-day western society, I'd be ecstatic!
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- If one of my wives decides to marry another husband, will all my wives be considered married to said husband? More important yet - will I be? This obviously seems unlikely, but how would our relation to be described? If it's not the case, what happens to the socially critically important entity of "family"? Perhaps I'm missing something, but the options seem pretty black and white - either we have families, or a relation between two individuals is just that. In any case, jumping ahead, "family" seems to contradict "polygamy", thus leading to the question what would happen to the children in such a society..?
No, that's not unlikely. That's how it would be. Think of it as a marriage or civil union between multiple people. That pretty much answers all your questions right? A Family would just be the set of parents that are married to each other and their children. For instance, that could provide more financial stability for the family, as you have a larger income pool to take from.
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On December 27 2011 00:49 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +
- If one of my wives decides to marry another husband, will all my wives be considered married to said husband? More important yet - will I be? This obviously seems unlikely, but how would our relation to be described? If it's not the case, what happens to the socially critically important entity of "family"? Perhaps I'm missing something, but the options seem pretty black and white - either we have families, or a relation between two individuals is just that. In any case, jumping ahead, "family" seems to contradict "polygamy", thus leading to the question what would happen to the children in such a society..?
No, that's not unlikely. That's how it would be. Think of it as a marriage or civil union between multiple people. That pretty much answers all your questions right? A Family would just be the set of parents that are married to each other and their children. For instance, that could provide more financial stability for the family, as you have a larger income pool to take from.
That means that one member could not marry without the other members also marrying.
This would also mean that divorce would not only involve dividing custody of the children and property but also dividing the spouses.
Saying that 'marriage' relationships are limited to a single group, is confining and limiting, even as saying that it is between a single man and single woman, or two people.
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I would definitely want many wives, I would treat them all well and with respect and would go for such thing only if I could sustain such reationship emotinally and financially. Basically, with responsibility.
Damn I woud love it! 
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On December 19 2011 01:12 darkscream wrote:
let people do whatever they want, government should stay the fuck out of the bedroom
There aren't laws against people shacking up with as many folks as they want (at least not in America). The law only stops short of offering the legal protection of marriage to these folks. Which I'm fine with. I'm not aware of any good models for polygamous family units on a societal level that aren't exploitative. But yeah, sleep with as many women/men as you want for all I care.
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On December 23 2011 09:22 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 22:00 DoubleReed wrote:No, it is not hard to feel jealous about someone you love who also love each other. This is completely wrong. I don't really understand why you think that would have any kind of exception. Jealousy is instinctual. I'm not saying polyamorous relationships can't work, because they can. What I'm saying is that jealousy has to be deprogrammed. As noted by frogrubdown, my point is that it's pretty much impossible to feel jealous about two people banging each other when you're banging both of them. The closest example I can draw for a heterosexual male (which I assume you are given the typical TL demographics), is that you would never be jealous if two girls you're sleeping with are also doing each other. Similarly, a heterosexual female will not feel jealous if two guys she's sleeping with also sleep with each other. The same extends to a bisexual male/female sleeping with any two people, or a homosexual male/female sleeping with two other people of the same sex. Unless you have extreme issues with jealousy/possesiveness, it simply doesn't make sense to find two of your lovers doing each other anything except frickin' hot.
This is completely ridiculous. You're basically saying that anyone who doesn't have the same values as you (finding it attractive when two women do something sexual together) is overly jealous/possessive. Take a step back for a second and think about how that sounds, because there are PLENTY of men in this world who would be betrayed by that.
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On December 27 2011 13:59 Stratos_speAr wrote:This is completely ridiculous. You're basically saying that anyone who doesn't have the same values as you (finding it attractive when two women do something sexual together) is overly jealous/possessive. Take a step back for a second and think about how that sounds, because there are PLENTY of men in this world who would be betrayed by that.
No, you missed the point completely.
I'm saying that if you do find it attractive when two of your lovers are sexual together (whether they are women or otherwise, as women is just the stereotypical example for most heterosexual males), then it is unlikely to make you jealous when they do each other as well as you. On the other hand, if you don't find it attractive, then it is more likely to make you jealous.
Thus my original statement, which is that jealousy is less of an issue when everyone is doing everyone (as opposed, to, say, two men who have to share one woman and have no attraction to each other).
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EPT
