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On December 16 2011 07:48 driftme wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 07:47 Kazeyonoma wrote:
who awhoa whoa, this guy talking is discussing onion, and other sites. the guy representing sanchez is obviously the most educated person on this entire council. That's been clear since his opening statement =]
Too bad they were still too stupid to take his advice.
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On December 16 2011 07:51 hmunkey wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 07:46 Serpico wrote:On December 16 2011 07:45 hmunkey wrote:On December 16 2011 07:43 Serpico wrote:On December 16 2011 07:41 hmunkey wrote:On December 16 2011 07:37 Serpico wrote:On December 16 2011 07:35 hmunkey wrote:
It is pretty much impossible for SOPA to actually become law. Come on guys... That's the kind of attitude that makes people get complacent though. No, you don't actually realize just how hard it would be for this to become law. First it has to get out of the Judiciary Committee, so it'll already be heavily neutered. Then it has to pass the House, where it'll be modified even more. Then it has to pass the Senate where once again it will undergo more changes. Of course now Obama has to sign or veto it. Based on all of his past threats to veto net neutrality bills, it's a safe bet he will. Now the House and Senate both need 2/3rds to push the bill through (likely after even more changes), and getting 2/3rd is already pretty hard. Oh, and even if it does somehow pass there's still the whole issue of judicial review. SOPA is not going to pass in any way unless they change the bill so much it doesn't really resemble what it is today, and even it it somehow magically did pass, it wouldn't go into effect for a very long time. And this is all assuming Google, Apple, Microsoft, Facebook don't start investing heavily in ensuring it's failure. People are all up in arms because Viacom and NBCUniversal are using lobbyists to push SOPA through. As soon as the giant tech corporations actually consider SOPA a real threat, they'll bring their own lobbyists in. Google is worth ten times what Viacom and NBC's parent company Comcast are, Apple is sitting on more raw cash than any media conglomerate has in all of their assets combined (and is the second largest publicly traded company in the world right now), Facebook has a majority of the population as users (and with that the ability to change policy instantly if it threatens their future), etc. Washington hasn't seen lobbying until the largest tech companies in the world see their interests are truly threatened. The scale would be absurd and it would be suicidal for a politician to go against corporations with as much sway as Google, Apple, Facebook, and so on. The most valuable ad in the world is the text under Google.com's search box. You really think they would sit back and let their entire business model crash? What about Youtube, Twitter, and Facebook, with their millions of hourly users? It's long been said that the most powerful lobby in Washington is the military. I would argue that if SOPA actually made it out of the House, we'd suddenly have a lobbying effort on a comparable scale with massive communication to the public. Companies with combined values of trillions are not going to let that slide away. Yes...but you dont stop trying to kill it before it has to go through all those processes. Okay, but my point still stands. SOPA won't pass. It's impossible.There is far too much on the line for any such bill to pass. Corporations funding lobbyists and politicians is a huge problem, but none of that lobbying can even compare to the scale of what would happen if SOPA even got close to passing. Like I said, corporations worth trillions of dollars, with direct access to the majority of the voting public, will do everything in their power to stop it. It's not impossible though, that's the whole point. Is it UNLIKELY? Sure, but I'd rather see people do the most they can regardless. It's impossible. It's more impossible than any piece of legislation that's ever been proposed in the last decade. Literally the only thing that could compare would be a hypothetical ban on oil imports -- but everyone knows that's ridiculous and impossible. How is this any different? The internet drives our economy now and the companies that are threatened by this have the same absurdly high amounts of money.
There's that word again, it will never be impossible and never has been. Things dont always follow a logical conclusion.
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On December 16 2011 07:51 hmunkey wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 07:46 Serpico wrote:On December 16 2011 07:45 hmunkey wrote:On December 16 2011 07:43 Serpico wrote:On December 16 2011 07:41 hmunkey wrote:On December 16 2011 07:37 Serpico wrote:On December 16 2011 07:35 hmunkey wrote:
It is pretty much impossible for SOPA to actually become law. Come on guys... That's the kind of attitude that makes people get complacent though. No, you don't actually realize just how hard it would be for this to become law. First it has to get out of the Judiciary Committee, so it'll already be heavily neutered. Then it has to pass the House, where it'll be modified even more. Then it has to pass the Senate where once again it will undergo more changes. Of course now Obama has to sign or veto it. Based on all of his past threats to veto net neutrality bills, it's a safe bet he will. Now the House and Senate both need 2/3rds to push the bill through (likely after even more changes), and getting 2/3rd is already pretty hard. Oh, and even if it does somehow pass there's still the whole issue of judicial review. SOPA is not going to pass in any way unless they change the bill so much it doesn't really resemble what it is today, and even it it somehow magically did pass, it wouldn't go into effect for a very long time. And this is all assuming Google, Apple, Microsoft, Facebook don't start investing heavily in ensuring it's failure. People are all up in arms because Viacom and NBCUniversal are using lobbyists to push SOPA through. As soon as the giant tech corporations actually consider SOPA a real threat, they'll bring their own lobbyists in. Google is worth ten times what Viacom and NBC's parent company Comcast are, Apple is sitting on more raw cash than any media conglomerate has in all of their assets combined (and is the second largest publicly traded company in the world right now), Facebook has a majority of the population as users (and with that the ability to change policy instantly if it threatens their future), etc. Washington hasn't seen lobbying until the largest tech companies in the world see their interests are truly threatened. The scale would be absurd and it would be suicidal for a politician to go against corporations with as much sway as Google, Apple, Facebook, and so on. The most valuable ad in the world is the text under Google.com's search box. You really think they would sit back and let their entire business model crash? What about Youtube, Twitter, and Facebook, with their millions of hourly users? It's long been said that the most powerful lobby in Washington is the military. I would argue that if SOPA actually made it out of the House, we'd suddenly have a lobbying effort on a comparable scale with massive communication to the public. Companies with combined values of trillions are not going to let that slide away. Yes...but you dont stop trying to kill it before it has to go through all those processes. Okay, but my point still stands. SOPA won't pass. It's impossible.There is far too much on the line for any such bill to pass. Corporations funding lobbyists and politicians is a huge problem, but none of that lobbying can even compare to the scale of what would happen if SOPA even got close to passing. Like I said, corporations worth trillions of dollars, with direct access to the majority of the voting public, will do everything in their power to stop it. It's not impossible though, that's the whole point. Is it UNLIKELY? Sure, but I'd rather see people do the most they can regardless. It's impossible. It's more impossible than any piece of legislation that's ever been proposed in the last decade. Literally the only thing that could compare would be a hypothetical ban on oil imports -- but everyone knows that's ridiculous and impossible. How is this any different? The internet drives our economy now and the companies that are threatened by this have the same absurdly high amounts of money.
People didn't have a problem giving up their rights for the Patriot Act. Just scare them enough and you can pass anything.
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On December 16 2011 07:52 Zalithian wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 07:51 hmunkey wrote:On December 16 2011 07:46 Serpico wrote:On December 16 2011 07:45 hmunkey wrote:On December 16 2011 07:43 Serpico wrote:On December 16 2011 07:41 hmunkey wrote:On December 16 2011 07:37 Serpico wrote:On December 16 2011 07:35 hmunkey wrote:
It is pretty much impossible for SOPA to actually become law. Come on guys... That's the kind of attitude that makes people get complacent though. No, you don't actually realize just how hard it would be for this to become law. First it has to get out of the Judiciary Committee, so it'll already be heavily neutered. Then it has to pass the House, where it'll be modified even more. Then it has to pass the Senate where once again it will undergo more changes. Of course now Obama has to sign or veto it. Based on all of his past threats to veto net neutrality bills, it's a safe bet he will. Now the House and Senate both need 2/3rds to push the bill through (likely after even more changes), and getting 2/3rd is already pretty hard. Oh, and even if it does somehow pass there's still the whole issue of judicial review. SOPA is not going to pass in any way unless they change the bill so much it doesn't really resemble what it is today, and even it it somehow magically did pass, it wouldn't go into effect for a very long time. And this is all assuming Google, Apple, Microsoft, Facebook don't start investing heavily in ensuring it's failure. People are all up in arms because Viacom and NBCUniversal are using lobbyists to push SOPA through. As soon as the giant tech corporations actually consider SOPA a real threat, they'll bring their own lobbyists in. Google is worth ten times what Viacom and NBC's parent company Comcast are, Apple is sitting on more raw cash than any media conglomerate has in all of their assets combined (and is the second largest publicly traded company in the world right now), Facebook has a majority of the population as users (and with that the ability to change policy instantly if it threatens their future), etc. Washington hasn't seen lobbying until the largest tech companies in the world see their interests are truly threatened. The scale would be absurd and it would be suicidal for a politician to go against corporations with as much sway as Google, Apple, Facebook, and so on. The most valuable ad in the world is the text under Google.com's search box. You really think they would sit back and let their entire business model crash? What about Youtube, Twitter, and Facebook, with their millions of hourly users? It's long been said that the most powerful lobby in Washington is the military. I would argue that if SOPA actually made it out of the House, we'd suddenly have a lobbying effort on a comparable scale with massive communication to the public. Companies with combined values of trillions are not going to let that slide away. Yes...but you dont stop trying to kill it before it has to go through all those processes. Okay, but my point still stands. SOPA won't pass. It's impossible.There is far too much on the line for any such bill to pass. Corporations funding lobbyists and politicians is a huge problem, but none of that lobbying can even compare to the scale of what would happen if SOPA even got close to passing. Like I said, corporations worth trillions of dollars, with direct access to the majority of the voting public, will do everything in their power to stop it. It's not impossible though, that's the whole point. Is it UNLIKELY? Sure, but I'd rather see people do the most they can regardless. It's impossible. It's more impossible than any piece of legislation that's ever been proposed in the last decade. Literally the only thing that could compare would be a hypothetical ban on oil imports -- but everyone knows that's ridiculous and impossible. How is this any different? The internet drives our economy now and the companies that are threatened by this have the same absurdly high amounts of money. People didn't have a problem giving up their rights for the Patriot Act. Just scare them enough and you can pass anything.
this.
User was warned for this post
Edit after warning (to add substance):
If hitler had told everyone ahead of time what he planned, before fearmongering etc, im sure it wouldnt have happened =]
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On December 16 2011 07:52 Zalithian wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 07:51 hmunkey wrote:On December 16 2011 07:46 Serpico wrote:On December 16 2011 07:45 hmunkey wrote:On December 16 2011 07:43 Serpico wrote:On December 16 2011 07:41 hmunkey wrote:On December 16 2011 07:37 Serpico wrote:On December 16 2011 07:35 hmunkey wrote:
It is pretty much impossible for SOPA to actually become law. Come on guys... That's the kind of attitude that makes people get complacent though. No, you don't actually realize just how hard it would be for this to become law. First it has to get out of the Judiciary Committee, so it'll already be heavily neutered. Then it has to pass the House, where it'll be modified even more. Then it has to pass the Senate where once again it will undergo more changes. Of course now Obama has to sign or veto it. Based on all of his past threats to veto net neutrality bills, it's a safe bet he will. Now the House and Senate both need 2/3rds to push the bill through (likely after even more changes), and getting 2/3rd is already pretty hard. Oh, and even if it does somehow pass there's still the whole issue of judicial review. SOPA is not going to pass in any way unless they change the bill so much it doesn't really resemble what it is today, and even it it somehow magically did pass, it wouldn't go into effect for a very long time. And this is all assuming Google, Apple, Microsoft, Facebook don't start investing heavily in ensuring it's failure. People are all up in arms because Viacom and NBCUniversal are using lobbyists to push SOPA through. As soon as the giant tech corporations actually consider SOPA a real threat, they'll bring their own lobbyists in. Google is worth ten times what Viacom and NBC's parent company Comcast are, Apple is sitting on more raw cash than any media conglomerate has in all of their assets combined (and is the second largest publicly traded company in the world right now), Facebook has a majority of the population as users (and with that the ability to change policy instantly if it threatens their future), etc. Washington hasn't seen lobbying until the largest tech companies in the world see their interests are truly threatened. The scale would be absurd and it would be suicidal for a politician to go against corporations with as much sway as Google, Apple, Facebook, and so on. The most valuable ad in the world is the text under Google.com's search box. You really think they would sit back and let their entire business model crash? What about Youtube, Twitter, and Facebook, with their millions of hourly users? It's long been said that the most powerful lobby in Washington is the military. I would argue that if SOPA actually made it out of the House, we'd suddenly have a lobbying effort on a comparable scale with massive communication to the public. Companies with combined values of trillions are not going to let that slide away. Yes...but you dont stop trying to kill it before it has to go through all those processes. Okay, but my point still stands. SOPA won't pass. It's impossible.There is far too much on the line for any such bill to pass. Corporations funding lobbyists and politicians is a huge problem, but none of that lobbying can even compare to the scale of what would happen if SOPA even got close to passing. Like I said, corporations worth trillions of dollars, with direct access to the majority of the voting public, will do everything in their power to stop it. It's not impossible though, that's the whole point. Is it UNLIKELY? Sure, but I'd rather see people do the most they can regardless. It's impossible. It's more impossible than any piece of legislation that's ever been proposed in the last decade. Literally the only thing that could compare would be a hypothetical ban on oil imports -- but everyone knows that's ridiculous and impossible. How is this any different? The internet drives our economy now and the companies that are threatened by this have the same absurdly high amounts of money. People didn't have a problem giving up their rights for the Patriot Act. Just scare them enough and you can pass anything. Once again, I said nothing about the people. The entire point is unlike the PATRIOT Act, SOPA actually threatens big business -- and by big business I literally mean the biggest business (after oil of course).
You realize no politician would really be willing to take a stand against these companies and their lobbyists right? They would never win an election again.
Oh, and regarding the population -- they were scared into accepting the PATRIOT Act yes. But that wasn't even part of a massive campaign. I'm telling you, if SOPA leaves the House just wait for the huge information campaign from Google, Facebook, Apple, Microsoft, Twitter, Reddit, etc. No one will still support the bill once they're done.
Hell, if Google and Facebook blacked their sites out for one day in protest any hope of SOPA passing would fail instantly.
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I just had a debate with someone in my family who I thought was fairly intelligent. I explained to them how this won't stop piracy, how it will criminalize things that are harmless and silly, how the poor little movie industry made more money in 2010 than the GDP of half the countries in the world (individually), among other things.
Every point I made was refuted with an appeal to emotion or a default to "stealing is wrong."
Shows how little most people understand this. Underestimating the stupidity of people is in itself very stupid.
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On December 16 2011 07:55 Zalithian wrote:
I just had a debate with someone in my family who I thought was fairly intelligent. I explained to them how this won't stop piracy, how it will criminalize things that are harmless and silly, how the poor little movie industry made more money in 2010 than the GDP of half the countries in the world (individually), among other things.
Every point I made was refuted with an appeal to emotion or a default to "stealing is wrong."
Shows how little most people understand this. Underestimating the stupidity of people is in itself very stupid.
Nah, that's a weak argument though. The movie industry (and music) have all been hurt pretty badly by piracy and they have to keep increasing ticket prices to make similar profits. That, and population growth, are the only reasons they haven't lost a lot of money comparatively (although the music industry is a fragment of what it used to be now).
And how does the size of their revenues compared to random GDPs make any difference? The Red Cross's annual earnings are higher than the GDPs of a lot of countries and that doesn't mean they're evil or greedy...
That argument is completely irrelevant.
Piracy is a very real problem, but SOPA is foolish and won't stop it. I wouldn't be opposed to reasonable and well-planned anti-piracy legislation necessarily.
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On December 16 2011 07:53 driftme wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 07:52 Zalithian wrote:On December 16 2011 07:51 hmunkey wrote:On December 16 2011 07:46 Serpico wrote:On December 16 2011 07:45 hmunkey wrote:On December 16 2011 07:43 Serpico wrote:On December 16 2011 07:41 hmunkey wrote:On December 16 2011 07:37 Serpico wrote:On December 16 2011 07:35 hmunkey wrote:
It is pretty much impossible for SOPA to actually become law. Come on guys... That's the kind of attitude that makes people get complacent though. No, you don't actually realize just how hard it would be for this to become law. First it has to get out of the Judiciary Committee, so it'll already be heavily neutered. Then it has to pass the House, where it'll be modified even more. Then it has to pass the Senate where once again it will undergo more changes. Of course now Obama has to sign or veto it. Based on all of his past threats to veto net neutrality bills, it's a safe bet he will. Now the House and Senate both need 2/3rds to push the bill through (likely after even more changes), and getting 2/3rd is already pretty hard. Oh, and even if it does somehow pass there's still the whole issue of judicial review. SOPA is not going to pass in any way unless they change the bill so much it doesn't really resemble what it is today, and even it it somehow magically did pass, it wouldn't go into effect for a very long time. And this is all assuming Google, Apple, Microsoft, Facebook don't start investing heavily in ensuring it's failure. People are all up in arms because Viacom and NBCUniversal are using lobbyists to push SOPA through. As soon as the giant tech corporations actually consider SOPA a real threat, they'll bring their own lobbyists in. Google is worth ten times what Viacom and NBC's parent company Comcast are, Apple is sitting on more raw cash than any media conglomerate has in all of their assets combined (and is the second largest publicly traded company in the world right now), Facebook has a majority of the population as users (and with that the ability to change policy instantly if it threatens their future), etc. Washington hasn't seen lobbying until the largest tech companies in the world see their interests are truly threatened. The scale would be absurd and it would be suicidal for a politician to go against corporations with as much sway as Google, Apple, Facebook, and so on. The most valuable ad in the world is the text under Google.com's search box. You really think they would sit back and let their entire business model crash? What about Youtube, Twitter, and Facebook, with their millions of hourly users? It's long been said that the most powerful lobby in Washington is the military. I would argue that if SOPA actually made it out of the House, we'd suddenly have a lobbying effort on a comparable scale with massive communication to the public. Companies with combined values of trillions are not going to let that slide away. Yes...but you dont stop trying to kill it before it has to go through all those processes. Okay, but my point still stands. SOPA won't pass. It's impossible.There is far too much on the line for any such bill to pass. Corporations funding lobbyists and politicians is a huge problem, but none of that lobbying can even compare to the scale of what would happen if SOPA even got close to passing. Like I said, corporations worth trillions of dollars, with direct access to the majority of the voting public, will do everything in their power to stop it. It's not impossible though, that's the whole point. Is it UNLIKELY? Sure, but I'd rather see people do the most they can regardless. It's impossible. It's more impossible than any piece of legislation that's ever been proposed in the last decade. Literally the only thing that could compare would be a hypothetical ban on oil imports -- but everyone knows that's ridiculous and impossible. How is this any different? The internet drives our economy now and the companies that are threatened by this have the same absurdly high amounts of money. People didn't have a problem giving up their rights for the Patriot Act. Just scare them enough and you can pass anything. this. User was warned for this postEdit after warning (to add substance): If hitler had told everyone ahead of time what he planned, before fearmongering etc, im sure it wouldnt have happened =]
So, since you've already been warned you might as well break out the godwins? Come on...
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On December 16 2011 07:53 driftme wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 07:52 Zalithian wrote:On December 16 2011 07:51 hmunkey wrote:On December 16 2011 07:46 Serpico wrote:On December 16 2011 07:45 hmunkey wrote:On December 16 2011 07:43 Serpico wrote:On December 16 2011 07:41 hmunkey wrote:On December 16 2011 07:37 Serpico wrote:On December 16 2011 07:35 hmunkey wrote:
It is pretty much impossible for SOPA to actually become law. Come on guys... That's the kind of attitude that makes people get complacent though. No, you don't actually realize just how hard it would be for this to become law. First it has to get out of the Judiciary Committee, so it'll already be heavily neutered. Then it has to pass the House, where it'll be modified even more. Then it has to pass the Senate where once again it will undergo more changes. Of course now Obama has to sign or veto it. Based on all of his past threats to veto net neutrality bills, it's a safe bet he will. Now the House and Senate both need 2/3rds to push the bill through (likely after even more changes), and getting 2/3rd is already pretty hard. Oh, and even if it does somehow pass there's still the whole issue of judicial review. SOPA is not going to pass in any way unless they change the bill so much it doesn't really resemble what it is today, and even it it somehow magically did pass, it wouldn't go into effect for a very long time. And this is all assuming Google, Apple, Microsoft, Facebook don't start investing heavily in ensuring it's failure. People are all up in arms because Viacom and NBCUniversal are using lobbyists to push SOPA through. As soon as the giant tech corporations actually consider SOPA a real threat, they'll bring their own lobbyists in. Google is worth ten times what Viacom and NBC's parent company Comcast are, Apple is sitting on more raw cash than any media conglomerate has in all of their assets combined (and is the second largest publicly traded company in the world right now), Facebook has a majority of the population as users (and with that the ability to change policy instantly if it threatens their future), etc. Washington hasn't seen lobbying until the largest tech companies in the world see their interests are truly threatened. The scale would be absurd and it would be suicidal for a politician to go against corporations with as much sway as Google, Apple, Facebook, and so on. The most valuable ad in the world is the text under Google.com's search box. You really think they would sit back and let their entire business model crash? What about Youtube, Twitter, and Facebook, with their millions of hourly users? It's long been said that the most powerful lobby in Washington is the military. I would argue that if SOPA actually made it out of the House, we'd suddenly have a lobbying effort on a comparable scale with massive communication to the public. Companies with combined values of trillions are not going to let that slide away. Yes...but you dont stop trying to kill it before it has to go through all those processes. Okay, but my point still stands. SOPA won't pass. It's impossible.There is far too much on the line for any such bill to pass. Corporations funding lobbyists and politicians is a huge problem, but none of that lobbying can even compare to the scale of what would happen if SOPA even got close to passing. Like I said, corporations worth trillions of dollars, with direct access to the majority of the voting public, will do everything in their power to stop it. It's not impossible though, that's the whole point. Is it UNLIKELY? Sure, but I'd rather see people do the most they can regardless. It's impossible. It's more impossible than any piece of legislation that's ever been proposed in the last decade. Literally the only thing that could compare would be a hypothetical ban on oil imports -- but everyone knows that's ridiculous and impossible. How is this any different? The internet drives our economy now and the companies that are threatened by this have the same absurdly high amounts of money. People didn't have a problem giving up their rights for the Patriot Act. Just scare them enough and you can pass anything. this. User was warned for this postEdit after warning (to add substance): If hitler had told everyone ahead of time what he planned, before fearmongering etc, im sure it wouldnt have happened =]
Yes buddy, Viacom and NBC are bent on world domination and ethnic cleansing. Can't argue with that logic.
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On December 16 2011 07:59 hmunkey wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 07:55 Zalithian wrote:
I just had a debate with someone in my family who I thought was fairly intelligent. I explained to them how this won't stop piracy, how it will criminalize things that are harmless and silly, how the poor little movie industry made more money in 2010 than the GDP of half the countries in the world (individually), among other things.
Every point I made was refuted with an appeal to emotion or a default to "stealing is wrong."
Shows how little most people understand this. Underestimating the stupidity of people is in itself very stupid. Nah, that's a weak argument though. The movie industry (and music) have all been hurt pretty badly by piracy and they have to keep increasing ticket prices to make similar profits. That, and population growth, are the only reasons they haven't lost a lot of money comparatively (although the music industry is a fragment of what it used to be now). Piracy is a very real problem, but SOPA is foolish and won't stop it. I wouldn't be opposed to reasonable and well-planned anti-piracy legislation necessarily.
I would argue the movie and especially music industries have been hurt because they refuse to shift to the modern era. It's obvious the MPAA/RIAA exaggerate their claims to try and garner sympathy. Every pirate download is not a lost sale. Now, I'm not saying it's okay to get stuff for free, but using flawed methods to skew statistics for sympathy is not right either.
Unless I'm understanding SOPA improperly, you could go to jail simply for using a copyrighted song in a video and uploading it to youtube. Is that incorrect? And the main point is that this bill, especially the DNS portion will not prevent piracy or access to those websites.
My argument was not that the movie/music industry have not lost any money. My argument was mainly that this bill would not accomplish its goals while having other negative impacts, to which the response was essentially that stealing is wrong so the bill should pass.
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On December 16 2011 08:03 Zalithian wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 07:59 hmunkey wrote:On December 16 2011 07:55 Zalithian wrote:
I just had a debate with someone in my family who I thought was fairly intelligent. I explained to them how this won't stop piracy, how it will criminalize things that are harmless and silly, how the poor little movie industry made more money in 2010 than the GDP of half the countries in the world (individually), among other things.
Every point I made was refuted with an appeal to emotion or a default to "stealing is wrong."
Shows how little most people understand this. Underestimating the stupidity of people is in itself very stupid. Nah, that's a weak argument though. The movie industry (and music) have all been hurt pretty badly by piracy and they have to keep increasing ticket prices to make similar profits. That, and population growth, are the only reasons they haven't lost a lot of money comparatively (although the music industry is a fragment of what it used to be now). Piracy is a very real problem, but SOPA is foolish and won't stop it. I wouldn't be opposed to reasonable and well-planned anti-piracy legislation necessarily. I would argue the movie and especially music industries have been hurt because they refuse to shift to the modern era. It's obvious the MPAA/RIAA exaggerate their claims to try and garner sympathy. Every pirate download is not a lost sale. Now, I'm not saying it's okay to get stuff for free, but using flawed methods to skew statistics for sympathy is not right either. Unless I'm understanding SOPA improperly, you could go to jail simply for using a copyrighted song in a video and uploading it to youtube. Is that incorrect? And the main point is that this bill, especially the DNS portion will not prevent piracy or access to those websites. Oh yeah of course piracy is way overstated, but that doesn't make it morally justifiable and you can't blame companies for trying to protect their revenue stream. I was just pointing out the flaws in your argument and why it may have no been as compelling as it could be.
And SOPA is idiotic. No argument here -- it doesn't actually address piracy itself in any meaningful way and goes way overboard with punishments regulations. I'm against SOPA far more than I'm against piracy, but neither are justifiable as good things. That said, just because the movie industry is acting irrational in reaction to piracy doesn't mean they're evil, greedy, or that piracy is okay; it just means that they're wrong on this.
Sidenote: I pirate music and movies all the time and feel bad about it. It's okay because I generally try to buy what I enjoy though.
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Now there's a loophole isn't it? You cannot enforce it globally, but you can use this attack to "snipe" websites.
All you need to do is make an account, and incubate it then post many copy-right infringment posts. Notify the government, and have the website shut down.
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On December 16 2011 08:07 hmunkey wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 08:03 Zalithian wrote:On December 16 2011 07:59 hmunkey wrote:On December 16 2011 07:55 Zalithian wrote:
I just had a debate with someone in my family who I thought was fairly intelligent. I explained to them how this won't stop piracy, how it will criminalize things that are harmless and silly, how the poor little movie industry made more money in 2010 than the GDP of half the countries in the world (individually), among other things.
Every point I made was refuted with an appeal to emotion or a default to "stealing is wrong."
Shows how little most people understand this. Underestimating the stupidity of people is in itself very stupid. Nah, that's a weak argument though. The movie industry (and music) have all been hurt pretty badly by piracy and they have to keep increasing ticket prices to make similar profits. That, and population growth, are the only reasons they haven't lost a lot of money comparatively (although the music industry is a fragment of what it used to be now). Piracy is a very real problem, but SOPA is foolish and won't stop it. I wouldn't be opposed to reasonable and well-planned anti-piracy legislation necessarily. I would argue the movie and especially music industries have been hurt because they refuse to shift to the modern era. It's obvious the MPAA/RIAA exaggerate their claims to try and garner sympathy. Every pirate download is not a lost sale. Now, I'm not saying it's okay to get stuff for free, but using flawed methods to skew statistics for sympathy is not right either. Unless I'm understanding SOPA improperly, you could go to jail simply for using a copyrighted song in a video and uploading it to youtube. Is that incorrect? And the main point is that this bill, especially the DNS portion will not prevent piracy or access to those websites. Oh yeah of course piracy is way overstated, but that doesn't make it morally justifiable and you can't blame companies for trying to protect their revenue stream. I was just pointing out the flaws in your argument and why it may have no been as compelling as it could be. And SOPA is idiotic. No argument here -- it doesn't actually address piracy itself in any meaningful way and goes way overboard with punishments regulations. I'm against SOPA far more than I'm against piracy, but neither are justifiable as good things. Sidenote: I pirate music and movies all the time and feel bad about it. It's okay because I generally try to buy what I enjoy though.
True. It wasn't the crux of my argument however. But I think most people would lose sympathy for an industry that took in more money than the GDP of half the countries in the world. That said, of course my main points were that this bill would be ineffective while having negative impacts in other areas as I explained those. All were met with the same generic response about how stealing is wrong, which is just depressing.
Agree with the rest of your stuff.
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On December 16 2011 08:10 Zalithian wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 08:07 hmunkey wrote:On December 16 2011 08:03 Zalithian wrote:On December 16 2011 07:59 hmunkey wrote:On December 16 2011 07:55 Zalithian wrote:
I just had a debate with someone in my family who I thought was fairly intelligent. I explained to them how this won't stop piracy, how it will criminalize things that are harmless and silly, how the poor little movie industry made more money in 2010 than the GDP of half the countries in the world (individually), among other things.
Every point I made was refuted with an appeal to emotion or a default to "stealing is wrong."
Shows how little most people understand this. Underestimating the stupidity of people is in itself very stupid. Nah, that's a weak argument though. The movie industry (and music) have all been hurt pretty badly by piracy and they have to keep increasing ticket prices to make similar profits. That, and population growth, are the only reasons they haven't lost a lot of money comparatively (although the music industry is a fragment of what it used to be now). Piracy is a very real problem, but SOPA is foolish and won't stop it. I wouldn't be opposed to reasonable and well-planned anti-piracy legislation necessarily. I would argue the movie and especially music industries have been hurt because they refuse to shift to the modern era. It's obvious the MPAA/RIAA exaggerate their claims to try and garner sympathy. Every pirate download is not a lost sale. Now, I'm not saying it's okay to get stuff for free, but using flawed methods to skew statistics for sympathy is not right either. Unless I'm understanding SOPA improperly, you could go to jail simply for using a copyrighted song in a video and uploading it to youtube. Is that incorrect? And the main point is that this bill, especially the DNS portion will not prevent piracy or access to those websites. Oh yeah of course piracy is way overstated, but that doesn't make it morally justifiable and you can't blame companies for trying to protect their revenue stream. I was just pointing out the flaws in your argument and why it may have no been as compelling as it could be. And SOPA is idiotic. No argument here -- it doesn't actually address piracy itself in any meaningful way and goes way overboard with punishments regulations. I'm against SOPA far more than I'm against piracy, but neither are justifiable as good things. Sidenote: I pirate music and movies all the time and feel bad about it. It's okay because I generally try to buy what I enjoy though. True. It wasn't the crux of my argument however. But I think most people would lose sympathy for an industry that took in more money than the GDP of half the countries in the world. That said, of course my main points were that this bill would be ineffective while having negative impacts in other areas as I explained those. All were met with the same generic response about how stealing is wrong, which is just depressing. Agree with the rest of your stuff.
It's fine. Just wait for the massive tech company-funded PR blitz if this goes anywhere. Everyone you know will have changed their mind on SOPA in a week.
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On December 16 2011 08:12 hmunkey wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 08:10 Zalithian wrote:On December 16 2011 08:07 hmunkey wrote:On December 16 2011 08:03 Zalithian wrote:On December 16 2011 07:59 hmunkey wrote:On December 16 2011 07:55 Zalithian wrote:
I just had a debate with someone in my family who I thought was fairly intelligent. I explained to them how this won't stop piracy, how it will criminalize things that are harmless and silly, how the poor little movie industry made more money in 2010 than the GDP of half the countries in the world (individually), among other things.
Every point I made was refuted with an appeal to emotion or a default to "stealing is wrong."
Shows how little most people understand this. Underestimating the stupidity of people is in itself very stupid. Nah, that's a weak argument though. The movie industry (and music) have all been hurt pretty badly by piracy and they have to keep increasing ticket prices to make similar profits. That, and population growth, are the only reasons they haven't lost a lot of money comparatively (although the music industry is a fragment of what it used to be now). Piracy is a very real problem, but SOPA is foolish and won't stop it. I wouldn't be opposed to reasonable and well-planned anti-piracy legislation necessarily. I would argue the movie and especially music industries have been hurt because they refuse to shift to the modern era. It's obvious the MPAA/RIAA exaggerate their claims to try and garner sympathy. Every pirate download is not a lost sale. Now, I'm not saying it's okay to get stuff for free, but using flawed methods to skew statistics for sympathy is not right either. Unless I'm understanding SOPA improperly, you could go to jail simply for using a copyrighted song in a video and uploading it to youtube. Is that incorrect? And the main point is that this bill, especially the DNS portion will not prevent piracy or access to those websites. Oh yeah of course piracy is way overstated, but that doesn't make it morally justifiable and you can't blame companies for trying to protect their revenue stream. I was just pointing out the flaws in your argument and why it may have no been as compelling as it could be. And SOPA is idiotic. No argument here -- it doesn't actually address piracy itself in any meaningful way and goes way overboard with punishments regulations. I'm against SOPA far more than I'm against piracy, but neither are justifiable as good things. Sidenote: I pirate music and movies all the time and feel bad about it. It's okay because I generally try to buy what I enjoy though. True. It wasn't the crux of my argument however. But I think most people would lose sympathy for an industry that took in more money than the GDP of half the countries in the world. That said, of course my main points were that this bill would be ineffective while having negative impacts in other areas as I explained those. All were met with the same generic response about how stealing is wrong, which is just depressing. Agree with the rest of your stuff. It's fine. Just wait for the massive tech company-funded PR blitz if this goes anywhere. Everyone you know will have changed their mind on SOPA in a week.
Let's hope so. and lol the internet is for porn lol wut
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wtf
User was warned for this post
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On November 16 2011 00:08 DreamChaser wrote:
My question is who would enforce this law, combing the internet for these particular sites would take a lot of time and manpower. Would they create a whole new division or just create a jurisdiction from another area. But either way this is bad
Maybe this will be the COD: MW4 game!
Chasing cyber criminal teenagers who download stuff from ntheir mother's basement...
But to be real, there's already plenty of cyber units in place but their mandate is very limited. It wouldn't take much for them to come forward and be more active.
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Man can this get any better? Polis bringing up Avenue Q ... I don't even ...
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Give the man a medal ASAP. Notice how the room all of a sudden woke up.
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OMG! this guy is hilarious! I cant remember I burst out laughing like that!
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EPT
