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On November 11 2011 02:26 Risen wrote:
. Tell me why Paterno is even morally at fault here.
letting a guy who was twice accused and investigated for child sex abuse have access to psu football facilities with children, players, bowl games (at his invite!), supporting his charity for children knowing sandursky had been charged before and was currently under investigation... your pick there!
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On November 11 2011 02:38 stokes17 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 02:35 Risen wrote:On November 11 2011 02:29 stokes17 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:26 Risen wrote:On November 11 2011 02:21 stokes17 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:14 Risen wrote:On November 11 2011 02:05 1Eris1 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:01 stokes17 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:00 1Eris1 wrote:On November 11 2011 01:56 Risen wrote:
[quote]
Perhaps I should clarify. Where is the evidence that JOE PATERNO had anything to do with all this. Where is the evidence that he participated in a coverup? Where is the evidence that he didn't do everything he was supposed to do?
There is a mountain of evidence detailing Sandusky as a pedophile. I'm not arguing that. Where the fuck does it say anywhere in that grand jury report that Paterno didn't do everything he was supposed to do? He LET Sandusky continue working under him. I don't care how close they are, how important football is. He should have at least suspended Sandusky and waited until the shit was worked out. Instead he just tossed the problem off on to others and let a child rapist continue to doing his thing. Should Paterno be charged as an accomplice? No probably not. Is part of the blame his? Of course. How can you defend this... Just to clarify The incident that was brought to Joe's attention by McQuerey occurred after Sandusky had retired. And he still let Sandusky volunteer on Campus, work in programs related to kids, etc. He even spoke on Sandusky's behalf at a children's fundraiser ffs The Second Mile wasn't Sandusky's foundation. He was a volunteer for the foundation. Paterno spoke at a fundraiser for The Second Mile. Edit: I see now. You all hate him because he let someone accused of acts against children walk near him. God forbid we actually hold true to innocent until proven guilty in this country. Burn every man and woman accused of such things in my opinion. Let God sort em out, amiright? I believe this is the exact moment you will stop trying to argue rationally. Joe Paterno failed to protect the kids. That is what he did. He knew there was smoke, and instead of going to the authorities he kept it internal. You need to accept this. Joe failed the children who were abused by Sandusky. That is why people are mad at him. He was a larger than life figure who shrunk at a critical time when he could have prevented the future harm of children. Joe did the exact fucking minimum to legally cover himself. When has Joe Paterno ever been about the bare minimum? He should have done more. We're just going to have to disagree. I believe in waiting until all the facts are released prior to passing judgement. It's clear you and many others do not share the same beliefs. If you feel you can sway me, list out the facts. Tell me why Paterno is even morally at fault here. Right if Joe was interested in the facts getting out he would have gone to the authorities so a real investigation could have occurred. Instead he kept it in house. He did this because he wanted to protect the Penn State Football Program's reputation (don't even try to say he could have had fear of losing his job) His failure to report to the authorities the possibility of a minor being raped, is why he is morally at fault. For some reason the head of the campus police force isn't authoritative enough for you. This is where I think our disagreement comes in. I'm sorry that we have to disagree over such a matter. Of course that's not enough. Joe Paterno knew the people in power at the university would place protecting the football program's perfect record over truly investigating the allegations. He decided to take part in this protection. He is morally responsible.
He KNEW that? Really? He KNEW what they would do? No, now you're talking for him as if you're omnipotent, and you're not a god.
Edit: Here's an example. Let's say I'm an intern where you work. I go to your boss and say X person raped a kid two days ago, I saw it.
You're saying your boss should just straight fire you, sever all contact with you, and report you to the police. Cool man. That's awesome.
I don't think that's what should happen, though.
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On November 11 2011 02:40 Hawk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 02:26 Risen wrote:
. Tell me why Paterno is even morally at fault here. letting a guy who was twice accused and investigated for child sex abuse have access to psu football facilities with children, players, bowl games (at his invite!), supporting his charity for children knowing sandursky had been charged before and was currently under investigation... your pick there!
Sandusky's charity? My bad, I thought it was created in the 70s, but you're right. It was Sandusky's charity.
WAS HE EVER CONVICTED OF CHILD ABUSE? I think we should cut all ties with anyone ever accused of a crime. Segregate them into their own little colony. We'll have the convicted criminals live somewhere, the people accused but never convicted live in another area, and all the people who've never been accused of anything can live somewhere else.
You;re not allowed to be friends with someone accused of a crime. Fuck them. They were ACCUSED god dammit! THEYRE GUILTY! GUILTY I SAY! No one has EVER been wrongly accused.
Edit: I can already feel the response.
Well, uhhh, he's like, above being a normal person and shit man. He should distance himself from anyone who's ever been accused of anything, man. Totally, dude. He's like a god, dude. He's not allowed to live a normal life, dude. People look up to him and shit, dude.
Fuck that. He's a man working a job. Is he important in the grand scheme of things? Yes. Does that mean he should be forced by society to interact only with people who have spotless records?
People always rail against the elite, how the elite always think themselves so much better. Then something like this happens and people say, oh well he was the elite, he should have been better than a regular person. Fuck that bullshit.
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On November 11 2011 02:26 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 02:21 stokes17 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:14 Risen wrote:On November 11 2011 02:05 1Eris1 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:01 stokes17 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:00 1Eris1 wrote:On November 11 2011 01:56 Risen wrote:On November 11 2011 01:53 1Eris1 wrote:On November 11 2011 01:50 Risen wrote:On November 11 2011 01:49 1Eris1 wrote:
[quote]
The problem is that despite these allegations, Sandusky was still able to work and volunteer at Penn State. If you know a guys an accused rapist/molester, with pretty solid evidence behind it, how are you going to let him work in an enviourment with a lot of young men and kids? Solid evidence? Where the fuck are you seeing solid evidence? I see ZERO solid evidence. And even with your other "evidence" I don't see anything that paints Joe Paterno as the bad guy here. Okay, you keep asking people if they read the GJ testimony, now I'm going to ask if you actually read it? The evidence in there is so clear it's ridiculous. And yeah, because a good guy would let a known raper/molester continue working under him because football>justice apparentely. Perhaps I should clarify. Where is the evidence that JOE PATERNO had anything to do with all this. Where is the evidence that he participated in a coverup? Where is the evidence that he didn't do everything he was supposed to do? There is a mountain of evidence detailing Sandusky as a pedophile. I'm not arguing that. Where the fuck does it say anywhere in that grand jury report that Paterno didn't do everything he was supposed to do? He LET Sandusky continue working under him. I don't care how close they are, how important football is. He should have at least suspended Sandusky and waited until the shit was worked out. Instead he just tossed the problem off on to others and let a child rapist continue to doing his thing. Should Paterno be charged as an accomplice? No probably not. Is part of the blame his? Of course. How can you defend this... Just to clarify The incident that was brought to Joe's attention by McQuerey occurred after Sandusky had retired. And he still let Sandusky volunteer on Campus, work in programs related to kids, etc. He even spoke on Sandusky's behalf at a children's fundraiser ffs The Second Mile wasn't Sandusky's foundation. He was a volunteer for the foundation. Paterno spoke at a fundraiser for The Second Mile. Edit: I see now. You all hate him because he let someone accused of acts against children walk near him. God forbid we actually hold true to innocent until proven guilty in this country. Burn every man and woman accused of such things in my opinion. Let God sort em out, amiright? I believe this is the exact moment you will stop trying to argue rationally. Joe Paterno failed to protect the kids. That is what he did. He knew there was smoke, and instead of going to the authorities he kept it internal. You need to accept this. Joe failed the children who were abused by Sandusky. That is why people are mad at him. He was a larger than life figure who shrunk at a critical time when he could have prevented the future harm of children. Joe did the exact fucking minimum to legally cover himself. When has Joe Paterno ever been about the bare minimum? He should have done more. We're just going to have to disagree. I believe in waiting until all the facts are released prior to passing judgement. It's clear you and many others do not share the same beliefs. If you feel you can sway me, list out the facts. Tell me why Paterno is even morally at fault here.
How is that not enough facts for you? I think the only relevant fact here is that your threshold for moral obligation is extremely low.
For somebody who differentiated his program based on higher morals, Paterno did the absolute bare legal minimum required of him. He only reported the information to clearly biased people, people employed by the university who have less actual power and influence than he does. He knew that he holds more power in that university than his nominal bosses. They tried to fire him multiple times before this for other reasons and he just told them to fuck off.
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On November 11 2011 02:41 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 02:38 stokes17 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:35 Risen wrote:On November 11 2011 02:29 stokes17 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:26 Risen wrote:On November 11 2011 02:21 stokes17 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:14 Risen wrote:On November 11 2011 02:05 1Eris1 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:01 stokes17 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:00 1Eris1 wrote:
[quote]
He LET Sandusky continue working under him.
I don't care how close they are, how important football is. He should have at least suspended Sandusky and waited until the shit was worked out. Instead he just tossed the problem off on to others and let a child rapist continue to doing his thing.
Should Paterno be charged as an accomplice? No probably not. Is part of the blame his? Of course. How can you defend this... Just to clarify The incident that was brought to Joe's attention by McQuerey occurred after Sandusky had retired. And he still let Sandusky volunteer on Campus, work in programs related to kids, etc. He even spoke on Sandusky's behalf at a children's fundraiser ffs The Second Mile wasn't Sandusky's foundation. He was a volunteer for the foundation. Paterno spoke at a fundraiser for The Second Mile. Edit: I see now. You all hate him because he let someone accused of acts against children walk near him. God forbid we actually hold true to innocent until proven guilty in this country. Burn every man and woman accused of such things in my opinion. Let God sort em out, amiright? I believe this is the exact moment you will stop trying to argue rationally. Joe Paterno failed to protect the kids. That is what he did. He knew there was smoke, and instead of going to the authorities he kept it internal. You need to accept this. Joe failed the children who were abused by Sandusky. That is why people are mad at him. He was a larger than life figure who shrunk at a critical time when he could have prevented the future harm of children. Joe did the exact fucking minimum to legally cover himself. When has Joe Paterno ever been about the bare minimum? He should have done more. We're just going to have to disagree. I believe in waiting until all the facts are released prior to passing judgement. It's clear you and many others do not share the same beliefs. If you feel you can sway me, list out the facts. Tell me why Paterno is even morally at fault here. Right if Joe was interested in the facts getting out he would have gone to the authorities so a real investigation could have occurred. Instead he kept it in house. He did this because he wanted to protect the Penn State Football Program's reputation (don't even try to say he could have had fear of losing his job) His failure to report to the authorities the possibility of a minor being raped, is why he is morally at fault. For some reason the head of the campus police force isn't authoritative enough for you. This is where I think our disagreement comes in. I'm sorry that we have to disagree over such a matter. Of course that's not enough. Joe Paterno knew the people in power at the university would place protecting the football program's perfect record over truly investigating the allegations. He decided to take part in this protection. He is morally responsible. He KNEW that? Really? He KNEW what they would do? No, now you're talking for him as if you're omnipotent, and you're not a god. Edit: Here's an example. Let's say I'm an intern where you work. I go to your boss and say X person raped a kid two days ago, I saw it. You're saying your boss should just straight fire you, sever all contact with you, and report you to the police. Cool man. That's awesome. I don't think that's what should happen, though.
Except in this case it was MULTIPLE people who came forward, with MULTIPLE DIFFERENT stories. Jesus man. The evidence was stacked pretty high. The guy wasn't charged because people were trying to protect a football program.
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On November 11 2011 02:46 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 02:40 Hawk wrote:On November 11 2011 02:26 Risen wrote:
. Tell me why Paterno is even morally at fault here. letting a guy who was twice accused and investigated for child sex abuse have access to psu football facilities with children, players, bowl games (at his invite!), supporting his charity for children knowing sandursky had been charged before and was currently under investigation... your pick there! Sandusky's charity? My bad, I thought it was created in the 70s, but you're right. It was Sandusky's charity. WAS HE EVER CONVICTED OF CHILD ABUSE? I think we should cut all ties with anyone ever accused of a crime. Segregate them into their own little colony. We'll have the convicted criminals live somewhere, the people accused but never convicted live in another area, and all the people who've never been accused of anything can live somewhere else. You;re not allowed to be friends with someone accused of a crime. Fuck them. They were ACCUSED god dammit! THEYRE GUILTY! GUILTY I SAY! No one has EVER been wrongly accused. Edit: I can already feel the response. Well, uhhh, he's like, above being a normal person and shit man. He should distance himself from anyone who's ever been accused of anything, man. Totally, dude. He's like a god, dude. He's not allowed to live a normal life, dude. People look up to him and shit, dude. Fuck that. He's a man working a job. Is he important in the grand scheme of things? Yes. Does that mean he should be forced by society to interact only with people who have spotless records? People always rail against the elite, how the elite always think themselves so much better. Then something like this happens and people say, oh well he was the elite, he should have been better than a regular person. Fuck that bullshit.
Twice accused and investigated. Also with two eye witness reports of child abuse, with at least one that was directly reported to him. And this man was around football activities as recently as a few weeks ago. Sandursky brought in many kids since the 2002 allegations after McQueary told JoePa..... Keep in mind this current investigation had been cooking for three years, and was known by PSU brass and JoePa.
you see no moral wrong doing in that??
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On November 11 2011 02:41 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 02:38 stokes17 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:35 Risen wrote:On November 11 2011 02:29 stokes17 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:26 Risen wrote:On November 11 2011 02:21 stokes17 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:14 Risen wrote:On November 11 2011 02:05 1Eris1 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:01 stokes17 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:00 1Eris1 wrote:
[quote]
He LET Sandusky continue working under him.
I don't care how close they are, how important football is. He should have at least suspended Sandusky and waited until the shit was worked out. Instead he just tossed the problem off on to others and let a child rapist continue to doing his thing.
Should Paterno be charged as an accomplice? No probably not. Is part of the blame his? Of course. How can you defend this... Just to clarify The incident that was brought to Joe's attention by McQuerey occurred after Sandusky had retired. And he still let Sandusky volunteer on Campus, work in programs related to kids, etc. He even spoke on Sandusky's behalf at a children's fundraiser ffs The Second Mile wasn't Sandusky's foundation. He was a volunteer for the foundation. Paterno spoke at a fundraiser for The Second Mile. Edit: I see now. You all hate him because he let someone accused of acts against children walk near him. God forbid we actually hold true to innocent until proven guilty in this country. Burn every man and woman accused of such things in my opinion. Let God sort em out, amiright? I believe this is the exact moment you will stop trying to argue rationally. Joe Paterno failed to protect the kids. That is what he did. He knew there was smoke, and instead of going to the authorities he kept it internal. You need to accept this. Joe failed the children who were abused by Sandusky. That is why people are mad at him. He was a larger than life figure who shrunk at a critical time when he could have prevented the future harm of children. Joe did the exact fucking minimum to legally cover himself. When has Joe Paterno ever been about the bare minimum? He should have done more. We're just going to have to disagree. I believe in waiting until all the facts are released prior to passing judgement. It's clear you and many others do not share the same beliefs. If you feel you can sway me, list out the facts. Tell me why Paterno is even morally at fault here. Right if Joe was interested in the facts getting out he would have gone to the authorities so a real investigation could have occurred. Instead he kept it in house. He did this because he wanted to protect the Penn State Football Program's reputation (don't even try to say he could have had fear of losing his job) His failure to report to the authorities the possibility of a minor being raped, is why he is morally at fault. For some reason the head of the campus police force isn't authoritative enough for you. This is where I think our disagreement comes in. I'm sorry that we have to disagree over such a matter. Of course that's not enough. Joe Paterno knew the people in power at the university would place protecting the football program's perfect record over truly investigating the allegations. He decided to take part in this protection. He is morally responsible. He KNEW that? Really? He KNEW what they would do? No, now you're talking for him as if you're omnipotent, and you're not a god. Edit: Here's an example. Let's say I'm an intern where you work. I go to your boss and say X person raped a kid two days ago, I saw it. You're saying your boss should just straight fire you, sever all contact with you, and report you to the police. Cool man. That's awesome. I don't think that's what should happen, though.
Are you kidding? Your boss should call the police (the real police, not the office police), something Paterno clearly did not do. Your boss should follow-up on it. If there is probable cause, an investigation needs to be done.
Companies don't need guilty verdicts to fire people. Do you know what at-will employment is?
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On November 11 2011 02:47 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 02:26 Risen wrote:On November 11 2011 02:21 stokes17 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:14 Risen wrote:On November 11 2011 02:05 1Eris1 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:01 stokes17 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:00 1Eris1 wrote:On November 11 2011 01:56 Risen wrote:On November 11 2011 01:53 1Eris1 wrote:On November 11 2011 01:50 Risen wrote:
[quote]
Solid evidence? Where the fuck are you seeing solid evidence? I see ZERO solid evidence. And even with your other "evidence" I don't see anything that paints Joe Paterno as the bad guy here. Okay, you keep asking people if they read the GJ testimony, now I'm going to ask if you actually read it? The evidence in there is so clear it's ridiculous. And yeah, because a good guy would let a known raper/molester continue working under him because football>justice apparentely. Perhaps I should clarify. Where is the evidence that JOE PATERNO had anything to do with all this. Where is the evidence that he participated in a coverup? Where is the evidence that he didn't do everything he was supposed to do? There is a mountain of evidence detailing Sandusky as a pedophile. I'm not arguing that. Where the fuck does it say anywhere in that grand jury report that Paterno didn't do everything he was supposed to do? He LET Sandusky continue working under him. I don't care how close they are, how important football is. He should have at least suspended Sandusky and waited until the shit was worked out. Instead he just tossed the problem off on to others and let a child rapist continue to doing his thing. Should Paterno be charged as an accomplice? No probably not. Is part of the blame his? Of course. How can you defend this... Just to clarify The incident that was brought to Joe's attention by McQuerey occurred after Sandusky had retired. And he still let Sandusky volunteer on Campus, work in programs related to kids, etc. He even spoke on Sandusky's behalf at a children's fundraiser ffs The Second Mile wasn't Sandusky's foundation. He was a volunteer for the foundation. Paterno spoke at a fundraiser for The Second Mile. Edit: I see now. You all hate him because he let someone accused of acts against children walk near him. God forbid we actually hold true to innocent until proven guilty in this country. Burn every man and woman accused of such things in my opinion. Let God sort em out, amiright? I believe this is the exact moment you will stop trying to argue rationally. Joe Paterno failed to protect the kids. That is what he did. He knew there was smoke, and instead of going to the authorities he kept it internal. You need to accept this. Joe failed the children who were abused by Sandusky. That is why people are mad at him. He was a larger than life figure who shrunk at a critical time when he could have prevented the future harm of children. Joe did the exact fucking minimum to legally cover himself. When has Joe Paterno ever been about the bare minimum? He should have done more. We're just going to have to disagree. I believe in waiting until all the facts are released prior to passing judgement. It's clear you and many others do not share the same beliefs. If you feel you can sway me, list out the facts. Tell me why Paterno is even morally at fault here. How is that not enough facts for you? I think the only relevant fact here is that your threshold for moral obligation is extremely low. For somebody who differentiated his program based on higher morals, Paterno did the absolute bare legal minimum required of him. He only reported the information to clearly biased people, people employed by the university who have less actual power and influence than he does. He knew that he holds more power in that university than his nominal bosses. They tried to fire him multiple times before this for other reasons and he just told them to fuck off.
Oh my bad, I can see that when you say how is that not enough facts for you I'm supposed to know what you're thinking. I can see that they tried to fire him multiple times, someone on the INTERNET said so! Where are your links, where is your proof. You're a random person on the internet spouting a bunch of shit with nothing to back it up.
I don't have to prove shit. In my eyes Paterno is innocent until proven "guilty" of his moral crimes. Present your evidence to me. Show me how bad of a person he is. All I see here is you saying "How is that not enough fact for you?" and not listing any facts.
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On November 11 2011 02:41 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 02:38 stokes17 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:35 Risen wrote:On November 11 2011 02:29 stokes17 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:26 Risen wrote:On November 11 2011 02:21 stokes17 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:14 Risen wrote:On November 11 2011 02:05 1Eris1 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:01 stokes17 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:00 1Eris1 wrote:
[quote]
He LET Sandusky continue working under him.
I don't care how close they are, how important football is. He should have at least suspended Sandusky and waited until the shit was worked out. Instead he just tossed the problem off on to others and let a child rapist continue to doing his thing.
Should Paterno be charged as an accomplice? No probably not. Is part of the blame his? Of course. How can you defend this... Just to clarify The incident that was brought to Joe's attention by McQuerey occurred after Sandusky had retired. And he still let Sandusky volunteer on Campus, work in programs related to kids, etc. He even spoke on Sandusky's behalf at a children's fundraiser ffs The Second Mile wasn't Sandusky's foundation. He was a volunteer for the foundation. Paterno spoke at a fundraiser for The Second Mile. Edit: I see now. You all hate him because he let someone accused of acts against children walk near him. God forbid we actually hold true to innocent until proven guilty in this country. Burn every man and woman accused of such things in my opinion. Let God sort em out, amiright? I believe this is the exact moment you will stop trying to argue rationally. Joe Paterno failed to protect the kids. That is what he did. He knew there was smoke, and instead of going to the authorities he kept it internal. You need to accept this. Joe failed the children who were abused by Sandusky. That is why people are mad at him. He was a larger than life figure who shrunk at a critical time when he could have prevented the future harm of children. Joe did the exact fucking minimum to legally cover himself. When has Joe Paterno ever been about the bare minimum? He should have done more. We're just going to have to disagree. I believe in waiting until all the facts are released prior to passing judgement. It's clear you and many others do not share the same beliefs. If you feel you can sway me, list out the facts. Tell me why Paterno is even morally at fault here. Right if Joe was interested in the facts getting out he would have gone to the authorities so a real investigation could have occurred. Instead he kept it in house. He did this because he wanted to protect the Penn State Football Program's reputation (don't even try to say he could have had fear of losing his job) His failure to report to the authorities the possibility of a minor being raped, is why he is morally at fault. For some reason the head of the campus police force isn't authoritative enough for you. This is where I think our disagreement comes in. I'm sorry that we have to disagree over such a matter. Of course that's not enough. Joe Paterno knew the people in power at the university would place protecting the football program's perfect record over truly investigating the allegations. He decided to take part in this protection. He is morally responsible. He KNEW that? Really? He KNEW what they would do? No, now you're talking for him as if you're omnipotent, and you're not a god. Edit: Here's an example. Let's say I'm an intern where you work. I go to your boss and say X person raped a kid two days ago, I saw it. You're saying your boss should just straight fire you, sever all contact with you, and report you to the police. Cool man. That's awesome. I don't think that's what should happen, though.
No that is not even close man. Your example is also awful.
Joe is not some intern at some "work" He is Joe Fucking Paterno. If he or his bosses went to the police this would never have happened. But They didn't they pushed it under the rug to protect the reputation of the program. And unless you are going to argue that Joe didn't expect them to do said pushing... he is as morally responsible as they are.
There was no fact finding, there was no investigation. Everyone realized if these allegations got out the reputation of the Penn State Football Program would be at risk. So they kept it internal.
I never said that PSU should have assumed what McQuerey said was fact... but I am saying you should call the god damn police when there is a report of sexual misconduct between an old man and a young boy in a shower. How can you disagree with that?
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On November 11 2011 02:51 Hawk wrote:
Twice accused and investigated. Also with two eye witness reports of child abuse, with at least one that was directly reported to him. And this man was around football activities as recently as a few weeks ago. Sandursky brought in many kids since the 2002 allegations after McQueary told JoePa..... Keep in mind this current investigation had been cooking for three years, and was known by PSU brass and JoePa.
you see no moral wrong doing in that??
Great, now link that to Paterno having any knowledge of it. One more step for you, buddy.
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On November 11 2011 02:52 stokes17 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 02:41 Risen wrote:On November 11 2011 02:38 stokes17 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:35 Risen wrote:On November 11 2011 02:29 stokes17 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:26 Risen wrote:On November 11 2011 02:21 stokes17 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:14 Risen wrote:On November 11 2011 02:05 1Eris1 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:01 stokes17 wrote:
[quote]
Just to clarify
The incident that was brought to Joe's attention by McQuerey occurred after Sandusky had retired. And he still let Sandusky volunteer on Campus, work in programs related to kids, etc. He even spoke on Sandusky's behalf at a children's fundraiser ffs The Second Mile wasn't Sandusky's foundation. He was a volunteer for the foundation. Paterno spoke at a fundraiser for The Second Mile. Edit: I see now. You all hate him because he let someone accused of acts against children walk near him. God forbid we actually hold true to innocent until proven guilty in this country. Burn every man and woman accused of such things in my opinion. Let God sort em out, amiright? I believe this is the exact moment you will stop trying to argue rationally. Joe Paterno failed to protect the kids. That is what he did. He knew there was smoke, and instead of going to the authorities he kept it internal. You need to accept this. Joe failed the children who were abused by Sandusky. That is why people are mad at him. He was a larger than life figure who shrunk at a critical time when he could have prevented the future harm of children. Joe did the exact fucking minimum to legally cover himself. When has Joe Paterno ever been about the bare minimum? He should have done more. We're just going to have to disagree. I believe in waiting until all the facts are released prior to passing judgement. It's clear you and many others do not share the same beliefs. If you feel you can sway me, list out the facts. Tell me why Paterno is even morally at fault here. Right if Joe was interested in the facts getting out he would have gone to the authorities so a real investigation could have occurred. Instead he kept it in house. He did this because he wanted to protect the Penn State Football Program's reputation (don't even try to say he could have had fear of losing his job) His failure to report to the authorities the possibility of a minor being raped, is why he is morally at fault. For some reason the head of the campus police force isn't authoritative enough for you. This is where I think our disagreement comes in. I'm sorry that we have to disagree over such a matter. Of course that's not enough. Joe Paterno knew the people in power at the university would place protecting the football program's perfect record over truly investigating the allegations. He decided to take part in this protection. He is morally responsible. He KNEW that? Really? He KNEW what they would do? No, now you're talking for him as if you're omnipotent, and you're not a god. Edit: Here's an example. Let's say I'm an intern where you work. I go to your boss and say X person raped a kid two days ago, I saw it. You're saying your boss should just straight fire you, sever all contact with you, and report you to the police. Cool man. That's awesome. I don't think that's what should happen, though. No that is not even close man. Your example is also awful. Joe is not some intern at some "work" He is Joe Fucking Paterno. If he or his bosses went to the police this would never have happened. But They didn't they pushed it under the rug to protect the reputation of the program. And unless you are going to argue that Joe didn't expect them to do said pushing... he is as morally responsible as they are. There was no fact finding, there was no investigation. Everyone realized if these allegations got out the reputation of the Penn State Football Program would be at risk. So they kept it internal. I never said that PSU should have assumed what McQuerey said was fact... but I am saying you should call the god damn police when there is a report of sexual misconduct between an old man and a young boy in a shower. How can you disagree with that?
I didn't say Paterno was an intern. MCQUEARY is the intern in my example. All I see is a bunch of speculation in your post. Oh, everyone KNEW X would happen if Y got out. Everyone KNEW it.
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I see nothing wrong with allowing people accused and subsequently cleared of any wrongdoing allowed to live their lives as if they were never accused. No.
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On November 11 2011 02:54 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 02:52 stokes17 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:41 Risen wrote:On November 11 2011 02:38 stokes17 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:35 Risen wrote:On November 11 2011 02:29 stokes17 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:26 Risen wrote:On November 11 2011 02:21 stokes17 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:14 Risen wrote:On November 11 2011 02:05 1Eris1 wrote:
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And he still let Sandusky volunteer on Campus, work in programs related to kids, etc. He even spoke on Sandusky's behalf at a children's fundraiser ffs The Second Mile wasn't Sandusky's foundation. He was a volunteer for the foundation. Paterno spoke at a fundraiser for The Second Mile. Edit: I see now. You all hate him because he let someone accused of acts against children walk near him. God forbid we actually hold true to innocent until proven guilty in this country. Burn every man and woman accused of such things in my opinion. Let God sort em out, amiright? I believe this is the exact moment you will stop trying to argue rationally. Joe Paterno failed to protect the kids. That is what he did. He knew there was smoke, and instead of going to the authorities he kept it internal. You need to accept this. Joe failed the children who were abused by Sandusky. That is why people are mad at him. He was a larger than life figure who shrunk at a critical time when he could have prevented the future harm of children. Joe did the exact fucking minimum to legally cover himself. When has Joe Paterno ever been about the bare minimum? He should have done more. We're just going to have to disagree. I believe in waiting until all the facts are released prior to passing judgement. It's clear you and many others do not share the same beliefs. If you feel you can sway me, list out the facts. Tell me why Paterno is even morally at fault here. Right if Joe was interested in the facts getting out he would have gone to the authorities so a real investigation could have occurred. Instead he kept it in house. He did this because he wanted to protect the Penn State Football Program's reputation (don't even try to say he could have had fear of losing his job) His failure to report to the authorities the possibility of a minor being raped, is why he is morally at fault. For some reason the head of the campus police force isn't authoritative enough for you. This is where I think our disagreement comes in. I'm sorry that we have to disagree over such a matter. Of course that's not enough. Joe Paterno knew the people in power at the university would place protecting the football program's perfect record over truly investigating the allegations. He decided to take part in this protection. He is morally responsible. He KNEW that? Really? He KNEW what they would do? No, now you're talking for him as if you're omnipotent, and you're not a god. Edit: Here's an example. Let's say I'm an intern where you work. I go to your boss and say X person raped a kid two days ago, I saw it. You're saying your boss should just straight fire you, sever all contact with you, and report you to the police. Cool man. That's awesome. I don't think that's what should happen, though. No that is not even close man. Your example is also awful. Joe is not some intern at some "work" He is Joe Fucking Paterno. If he or his bosses went to the police this would never have happened. But They didn't they pushed it under the rug to protect the reputation of the program. And unless you are going to argue that Joe didn't expect them to do said pushing... he is as morally responsible as they are. There was no fact finding, there was no investigation. Everyone realized if these allegations got out the reputation of the Penn State Football Program would be at risk. So they kept it internal. I never said that PSU should have assumed what McQuerey said was fact... but I am saying you should call the god damn police when there is a report of sexual misconduct between an old man and a young boy in a shower. How can you disagree with that? I didn't say Paterno was an intern. MCQUEARY is the intern in my example. All I see is a bunch of speculation in your post. Oh, everyone KNEW X would happen if Y got out. Everyone KNEW it.
Bro, everyone knew the PSU football program's reputation would be tainted if it got out that Sandusky was raping boys in their facilities. You seriously can't be arguing that?
And to say that those in power at PSU would take protecting their program over protecting the children is not speculation.... that's literally what happened.
The only out you have is if you are going to say Joe didn't know the administrators would cover up the allegations instead of calling the police.
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On November 11 2011 02:52 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 02:51 Hawk wrote:
Twice accused and investigated. Also with two eye witness reports of child abuse, with at least one that was directly reported to him. And this man was around football activities as recently as a few weeks ago. Sandursky brought in many kids since the 2002 allegations after McQueary told JoePa..... Keep in mind this current investigation had been cooking for three years, and was known by PSU brass and JoePa.
you see no moral wrong doing in that?? Great, now link that to Paterno having any knowledge of it. One more step for you, buddy.
Go read any of the report? he clearly knew about the 2002 investigation since McQueary told him of it and he reported it up. That is a fact. And It's absurd to think that he didn't know why Sandursky, under his staff during the 98 allegation and known as one of Joepa's closest pals, suddenly retired and was banned from campus after he was tabbed as being JoePa's successor.
If that's not enough for you, please explain how McQueary reports that he saw a 60 year old man raping a kid in a shower and it gets pushed up by Paterno. Nothing comes of it. So JoePa either would presumably fire McQueary for being a liar who tried to get his friend in trouble, or he is either someone who looked the other way when Sandursky was back on campus with kids after that.
It's a pretty damn clear cut case of turning a blind eye to it morally
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On November 11 2011 02:57 stokes17 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 02:54 Risen wrote:On November 11 2011 02:52 stokes17 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:41 Risen wrote:On November 11 2011 02:38 stokes17 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:35 Risen wrote:On November 11 2011 02:29 stokes17 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:26 Risen wrote:On November 11 2011 02:21 stokes17 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:14 Risen wrote:
[quote]
The Second Mile wasn't Sandusky's foundation. He was a volunteer for the foundation. Paterno spoke at a fundraiser for The Second Mile.
Edit: I see now. You all hate him because he let someone accused of acts against children walk near him. God forbid we actually hold true to innocent until proven guilty in this country. Burn every man and woman accused of such things in my opinion. Let God sort em out, amiright? I believe this is the exact moment you will stop trying to argue rationally. Joe Paterno failed to protect the kids. That is what he did. He knew there was smoke, and instead of going to the authorities he kept it internal. You need to accept this. Joe failed the children who were abused by Sandusky. That is why people are mad at him. He was a larger than life figure who shrunk at a critical time when he could have prevented the future harm of children. Joe did the exact fucking minimum to legally cover himself. When has Joe Paterno ever been about the bare minimum? He should have done more. We're just going to have to disagree. I believe in waiting until all the facts are released prior to passing judgement. It's clear you and many others do not share the same beliefs. If you feel you can sway me, list out the facts. Tell me why Paterno is even morally at fault here. Right if Joe was interested in the facts getting out he would have gone to the authorities so a real investigation could have occurred. Instead he kept it in house. He did this because he wanted to protect the Penn State Football Program's reputation (don't even try to say he could have had fear of losing his job) His failure to report to the authorities the possibility of a minor being raped, is why he is morally at fault. For some reason the head of the campus police force isn't authoritative enough for you. This is where I think our disagreement comes in. I'm sorry that we have to disagree over such a matter. Of course that's not enough. Joe Paterno knew the people in power at the university would place protecting the football program's perfect record over truly investigating the allegations. He decided to take part in this protection. He is morally responsible. He KNEW that? Really? He KNEW what they would do? No, now you're talking for him as if you're omnipotent, and you're not a god. Edit: Here's an example. Let's say I'm an intern where you work. I go to your boss and say X person raped a kid two days ago, I saw it. You're saying your boss should just straight fire you, sever all contact with you, and report you to the police. Cool man. That's awesome. I don't think that's what should happen, though. No that is not even close man. Your example is also awful. Joe is not some intern at some "work" He is Joe Fucking Paterno. If he or his bosses went to the police this would never have happened. But They didn't they pushed it under the rug to protect the reputation of the program. And unless you are going to argue that Joe didn't expect them to do said pushing... he is as morally responsible as they are. There was no fact finding, there was no investigation. Everyone realized if these allegations got out the reputation of the Penn State Football Program would be at risk. So they kept it internal. I never said that PSU should have assumed what McQuerey said was fact... but I am saying you should call the god damn police when there is a report of sexual misconduct between an old man and a young boy in a shower. How can you disagree with that? I didn't say Paterno was an intern. MCQUEARY is the intern in my example. All I see is a bunch of speculation in your post. Oh, everyone KNEW X would happen if Y got out. Everyone KNEW it. Bro, everyone knew the PSU football program's reputation would be tainted if it got out that Sandusky was raping boys in their facilities. You seriously can't be arguing that? And to say that those in power at PSU would take protecting their program over protecting the children is not speculation.... that's literally what happened. The only out you have is if you are going to say Joe didn't know the administrators would cover up the allegations instead of calling the police.
That is my out. That's what I've been going on about this whole time. How is he supposed to know that they would value the reputation of the Penn State football team over the protection of a little boy? He ISN'T. How is Paterno supposed to know that when he reported it to his boss and the head of campus police that they'd cover it up? Maybe he was told by his superiors that the proper channels had been informed, that an investigation was already underway. Then again, maybe he was in on it the whole time. Maybe he's the one who suggested they cover it up. Guess what? You don't know shit about what happened and you're passing your speculation off as fact.
How do you know ANYTHING. You don't know jack shit. You speculate about everything and consider it "fact". I'm just sitting here calling bullshit when you and everyone else here is trying so desperately to pass this stuff off as fact.
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On November 11 2011 02:59 Hawk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 02:52 Risen wrote:On November 11 2011 02:51 Hawk wrote:
Twice accused and investigated. Also with two eye witness reports of child abuse, with at least one that was directly reported to him. And this man was around football activities as recently as a few weeks ago. Sandursky brought in many kids since the 2002 allegations after McQueary told JoePa..... Keep in mind this current investigation had been cooking for three years, and was known by PSU brass and JoePa.
you see no moral wrong doing in that?? Great, now link that to Paterno having any knowledge of it. One more step for you, buddy. Go read any of the report? he clearly knew about the 2002 investigation since McQueary told him of it and he reported it up. That is a fact. And It's absurd to think that he didn't know why Sandursky, under his staff during the 98 allegation and known as one of Joepa's closest pals, suddenly retired and was banned from campus after he was tabbed as being JoePa's successor. If that's not enough for you, please explain how McQueary reports that he saw a 60 year old man raping a kid in a shower and it gets pushed up by Paterno. Nothing comes of it. So JoePa either would presumably fire McQueary for being a liar who tried to get his friend in trouble, or he is either someone who looked the other way when Sandursky was back on campus with kids after that. It's a pretty damn clear cut case of turning a blind eye to it morally
Oh hey look, even MORE speculation. Keep piling it up buddy. You know he knew about the 2002 case, now tell me how you know he knew about the 98 case. Don't bother if all you have is speculation. It's becoming clear that's where all your thoughts come from. Good thing you're not a judge.
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Not sure how many of you have watched Sportscenter in the past couple days, but according to one of the reporters who has a source with first hand knowledge of what McQueary told Paterno, which was apparently that he saw Sandusky "fondling, touching, and horsing around" with a kid in the shower. There was NEVER any mention of the word RAPE, SODOMY, or MOLESTATION. Now with that said, yes even the mention of the word fondling should have provoked Paterno to contact the police, however when its mentioned with touching and "horsing around", I can see exactly why Paterno just went to his superiors, because it didn't seem like a big deal at this time. I'm sure all this will come out eventually.
I find it really funny one of the excuses many are saying he was fired was so he doesn't have to comment on the situation (I guess in a manner of representing the school?). Clearly Paterno will share his side of the story at some point, and we can hopefully find out what was really said.
For everyone who supports Paterno being fired, I suggest you attempt to contact the PSU board of trustees about removing McQueary from his position as well, as he was the WITNESS who also did not go to the police, yet is still on the PSU coaching staff today.
As a side note, not sure if this is true or not because I heard it on TV from one of the students at the gathering, riot, whatever you want to call it last night on campus, that one of the people Paterno reported Sandusky to was actually the head of campus police. If that's true, then as far as I'm concerned he did reach out to the authorities.
Personally, I think this whole thing is the excuse the board needed to get Paterno out of the football program. When he was asked to leave awhile back, Paterno straight up told the board he wasn't going to step down until he was ready. I think the board has had a sour taste ever since and has been looking to get rid of him, and what a better situation then now. I hope the uprising at PSU continues, I hope the players refuse to play, and I hope cowardly board of trustees get what's coming to them for the sneaky bullshit they pulled yesterday.
For anyone not aware, here's how Paterno was fired: a messenger came to his house at 9:45pm, 15 minutes before announced they were firing him. In the letter from the messenger was a telephone number with instructions to call. Paterno calls the number, greeted by 2 members of the board, who promptly tell him "you are relieved of your duties", then make the announcement a short time later. Seems like a pretty fucking disgusting move to me considering the man put almost 65 years into the college, and has donated millions to the school he was proud to call his home.
I heard someone last night point out that this was a business decision, and something the board had to do. I hope the enjoy the results this "business decision" causes, because right now it certainly doesn't seem like the best one to me.
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On November 11 2011 03:03 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 02:57 stokes17 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:54 Risen wrote:On November 11 2011 02:52 stokes17 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:41 Risen wrote:On November 11 2011 02:38 stokes17 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:35 Risen wrote:On November 11 2011 02:29 stokes17 wrote:On November 11 2011 02:26 Risen wrote:On November 11 2011 02:21 stokes17 wrote:
[quote]
I believe this is the exact moment you will stop trying to argue rationally.
Joe Paterno failed to protect the kids. That is what he did. He knew there was smoke, and instead of going to the authorities he kept it internal. You need to accept this. Joe failed the children who were abused by Sandusky. That is why people are mad at him. He was a larger than life figure who shrunk at a critical time when he could have prevented the future harm of children.
Joe did the exact fucking minimum to legally cover himself. When has Joe Paterno ever been about the bare minimum? He should have done more.
We're just going to have to disagree. I believe in waiting until all the facts are released prior to passing judgement. It's clear you and many others do not share the same beliefs. If you feel you can sway me, list out the facts. Tell me why Paterno is even morally at fault here. Right if Joe was interested in the facts getting out he would have gone to the authorities so a real investigation could have occurred. Instead he kept it in house. He did this because he wanted to protect the Penn State Football Program's reputation (don't even try to say he could have had fear of losing his job) His failure to report to the authorities the possibility of a minor being raped, is why he is morally at fault. For some reason the head of the campus police force isn't authoritative enough for you. This is where I think our disagreement comes in. I'm sorry that we have to disagree over such a matter. Of course that's not enough. Joe Paterno knew the people in power at the university would place protecting the football program's perfect record over truly investigating the allegations. He decided to take part in this protection. He is morally responsible. He KNEW that? Really? He KNEW what they would do? No, now you're talking for him as if you're omnipotent, and you're not a god. Edit: Here's an example. Let's say I'm an intern where you work. I go to your boss and say X person raped a kid two days ago, I saw it. You're saying your boss should just straight fire you, sever all contact with you, and report you to the police. Cool man. That's awesome. I don't think that's what should happen, though. No that is not even close man. Your example is also awful. Joe is not some intern at some "work" He is Joe Fucking Paterno. If he or his bosses went to the police this would never have happened. But They didn't they pushed it under the rug to protect the reputation of the program. And unless you are going to argue that Joe didn't expect them to do said pushing... he is as morally responsible as they are. There was no fact finding, there was no investigation. Everyone realized if these allegations got out the reputation of the Penn State Football Program would be at risk. So they kept it internal. I never said that PSU should have assumed what McQuerey said was fact... but I am saying you should call the god damn police when there is a report of sexual misconduct between an old man and a young boy in a shower. How can you disagree with that? I didn't say Paterno was an intern. MCQUEARY is the intern in my example. All I see is a bunch of speculation in your post. Oh, everyone KNEW X would happen if Y got out. Everyone KNEW it. Bro, everyone knew the PSU football program's reputation would be tainted if it got out that Sandusky was raping boys in their facilities. You seriously can't be arguing that? And to say that those in power at PSU would take protecting their program over protecting the children is not speculation.... that's literally what happened. The only out you have is if you are going to say Joe didn't know the administrators would cover up the allegations instead of calling the police. That is my out. That's what I've been going on about this whole time. How is he supposed to know that they would value the reputation of the Penn State football team over the protection of a little boy? He ISN'T. How is Paterno supposed to know that when he reported it to his boss and the head of campus police that they'd cover it up? Maybe he was told by his superiors that the proper channels had been informed, that an investigation was already underway. Then again, maybe he was in on it the whole time. Maybe he's the one who suggested they cover it up. Guess what? You don't know shit about what happened and you're passing your speculation off as fact. How do you know ANYTHING. You don't know jack shit. You speculate about everything and consider it "fact". I'm just sitting here calling bullshit when you and everyone else here is trying so desperately to pass this stuff off as fact.
You're right I don't know for a fact that Joe knew his bosses would cover it up. But then why was no action taken against McQuerey for falsely accusing a man of such a heinous thing? Joe certainly would certainly take action against some freaking GA who is accusing his friend of 30 years of rape? Unless, keeping McQuerey on board was part of the cover up.
While there is no way Joe is legally responsible here, at least I, personally, am going to hold him morally responsible. He chose to let the issue disappear (how can action be taken against neither McQuerey or Sandusky? ) instead of pursuing it.
He took the easy way out here. He should have done more.
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On November 11 2011 03:05 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 02:59 Hawk wrote:On November 11 2011 02:52 Risen wrote:On November 11 2011 02:51 Hawk wrote:
Twice accused and investigated. Also with two eye witness reports of child abuse, with at least one that was directly reported to him. And this man was around football activities as recently as a few weeks ago. Sandursky brought in many kids since the 2002 allegations after McQueary told JoePa..... Keep in mind this current investigation had been cooking for three years, and was known by PSU brass and JoePa.
you see no moral wrong doing in that?? Great, now link that to Paterno having any knowledge of it. One more step for you, buddy. Go read any of the report? he clearly knew about the 2002 investigation since McQueary told him of it and he reported it up. That is a fact. And It's absurd to think that he didn't know why Sandursky, under his staff during the 98 allegation and known as one of Joepa's closest pals, suddenly retired and was banned from campus after he was tabbed as being JoePa's successor. If that's not enough for you, please explain how McQueary reports that he saw a 60 year old man raping a kid in a shower and it gets pushed up by Paterno. Nothing comes of it. So JoePa either would presumably fire McQueary for being a liar who tried to get his friend in trouble, or he is either someone who looked the other way when Sandursky was back on campus with kids after that. It's a pretty damn clear cut case of turning a blind eye to it morally Oh hey look, even MORE speculation. Keep piling it up buddy. You know he knew about the 2002 case, now tell me how you know he knew about the 98 case. Don't bother if all you have is speculation. It's becoming clear that's where all your thoughts come from. Good thing you're not a judge.
Everything else here isn't speculation:
On November 11 2011 02:52 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 02:51 Hawk wrote:
Twice accused and investigated. Also with two eye witness reports of child abuse, with at least one that was directly reported to him. And this man was around football activities as recently as a few weeks ago. Sandursky brought in many kids since the 2002 allegations after McQueary told JoePa..... Keep in mind this current investigation had been cooking for three years, and was known by PSU brass and JoePa.
you see no moral wrong doing in that?? Great, now link that to Paterno having any knowledge of it. One more step for you, buddy.
Go read any of the report? he clearly knew about the 2002 investigation since McQueary told him of it and he reported it up. That is a fact.
If that's not enough for you, please explain how McQueary reports that he saw a 60 year old man raping a kid in a shower and it gets pushed up by Paterno. Nothing comes of it. So JoePa either would presumably fire McQueary for being a liar who tried to get his friend in trouble, or he is either someone who looked the other way when Sandursky was back on campus with kids after that.
It's a pretty damn clear cut case of turning a blind eye to it morally
So, your answer to whether or not he is morally responsible for the above would be...???
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On November 11 2011 02:55 Risen wrote:
I see nothing wrong with allowing people accused and subsequently cleared of any wrongdoing allowed to live their lives as if they were never accused. No.
He wasn't cleared ffs dude, the accusation was pushed under the fucking rug in the name of a football program.
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