I took his post as some kind of vague implication that because Hamas are Arabs it's easy for us stupid bigots to believe that they are terrorists because it fits our simple narrative of turban wearing, suicide bombing Jihadists whereas he has access to a much higher truth. It's a complete nonsense. The silent majority does not believe that all terrorists are Arabs, at least not in my country.
On December 01 2012 09:42 oneofthem wrote: the silent majority also believes that terrorism is just a problem of crazy sand people. it's pretty dumb.
Clearly you have never heard of the IRA or ETA, if you had then you wouldn't have made such a dumb post as you'd be too busy being silent.
not sure what you are even saying here. various forms of resistance movements, separatist movements, whatever, have resorted to using force. they are social movements gone violent.
terrorism is a term defined by a specific tactic, it doesn't describe any meaningful feature of these movements other than a tactical choice. so seeing everything as a terrorist movement is just to ignore the more meaningful features.
examples of terrorists include organized slaves resisting the south, native americans raiding americans, separatists killing dudes. the moral story clearly depend on more than their tactical choices.
On December 01 2012 09:49 KwarK wrote: I took his post as some kind of vague implication that because Hamas are Arabs it's easy for us stupid bigots to believe that they are terrorists because it fits our simple narrative of turban wearing, suicide bombing Jihadists whereas he has access to a much higher truth. It's a complete nonsense. The silent majority does not believe that all terrorists are Arabs, at least not in my country.
I'm not sure about the silent majority, but unfortunately the vocal majority in my country believes this hook, line, and sinker.
On December 01 2012 08:39 Elroi wrote: [quote] Come on Kwark, this must be the worst of all your 18k posts on TL... and you are usually so reasonable too! Like the Palestinians could chose to fight in uniforms? Don't you understand that this is a massively asymmetrical war. In a straight up fight against the Israeli forces, the Palestinians would get slaughtered (that is, even worse than they are getting slaughtered now).
We have more or less all the casualties on one side in this war, civilian as well as military, this must mean something to you guys?
This is terrorism:
If you are unwilling to engage your enemy in conventional warfare then you have the option of becoming insurgents and attacking their military. At no point are you forced into firing rockets into civilian areas or blowing up buses, that's something people choose to do, it's terrorism. A basic guide for those who don't know Military kills military = war Military kills civilian = war crime Paramilitary kills military = resistance Paramilitary kills civilian = terrorism
Terrorism is not going to win them the war, no matter how asymmetrical it is.
Still not getting it, eh? They have absolutely no chance of winning a war, everyone knows that. They have no chance of winning through diplomacy since the US and its puppets have no interest in anything other than Israeli interests.
Essentially we have a state, Palestine, that has no physical or peaceful recourse. It is a state that, if things continue as they are, will simply vanish into the pages of history.
They do what they do because they are fighting in the only way they still can, and I'll be damned before I can condemn a nation fighting tyranny with the only means available to it.
Firstly, war was only one of the four things I described, military against military and that was just a clarification for people like yourself. Secondly, you realise that the number of Palestinians is increasing exponentially and has been ever since Israel took their land, right? That this is the type of genocide in which the population being targeted is given massive amounts of humanitarian aid and undergoes explosive population growth, ie not genocide. They're not vanishing. Thirdly, only means available to it? I outlined two options for paramilitary groups and said the one that attacks the civilians is terrorism, where are you getting this "only means" thing from. Blowing up buses is not, and never has been, the only means. It doesn't even qualify as means at all because it does nothing but strengthens Israeli resolve.
Your "clarification" is meaningless to me, make up some new "clarifications" I can ignore.
Did I just read massive amounts of humanitarian aid? What am I reading? These people are being sustained on a subsistence level.
Sorry, what were the other means available to it? Targeting Israeli bases with their home made rockets? Hell, even with some of the good rockets they get from Iran they still couldn't even dent the Israeli army.
Their only hope for peace is from outside help. No one in the West right now would even know what Palastine is without these "terrorist" attacks. Could it be a cry for help?
Do you know what subsistence means? I'm pretty sure you don't. Imagine you have two million people and you give them subsistence level food for two million people. Do you know what happens to the baby born that makes it two million and one? He starves. Twenty years ago there were two million Palestinians. Now there are four million Palestinians. Clearly they are getting a surplus of food.
I like your ignorant style Kwark, you must be a teacher.
Maybe you should look up subsistence, and realize it implies nothing of the sort. These people are getting what they need, not some incredible surplus that produces a healthy population.
If you give people the bare minimum they need to survive then the population does not explode for both biological and social reasons. Fertility decreases under harsh conditions and people choose not to undergo the expenses of increased family size. Children are a luxury and the Palestinians have been having more of them than pretty much any group on earth. Their recent population growth is astounding. This is not a people being wiped out.
Populations are growing in similar rates in India and Bangladesh (two of the poorest countries in the world). I think you sound disturbingly cold when you address the situation of the Palestinians in general.
It gets frustrating to hear this rhetoric about the Israeli extermination of the Palestinians as their numbers continue to grow at ever increasing rates and the demands of their growing population are met primarily at the expense of Israel.
Come on. It is like calling the food in prison humanitarian aid. I have been saying this over and over again in this thread and your only response is... rhetoric.
On December 01 2012 09:49 KwarK wrote: I took his post as some kind of vague implication that because Hamas are Arabs it's easy for us stupid bigots to believe that they are terrorists because it fits our simple narrative of turban wearing, suicide bombing Jihadists whereas he has access to a much higher truth. It's a complete nonsense. The silent majority does not believe that all terrorists are Arabs, at least not in my country.
while i would not say it is a higher truth, it is certainly true that people who see themselves as aligning with an attacked party will focus on the offending tactical action, rather than trying to understand the motivations or conditions that drove the attackers into those acts. especially in a confllict like this when the vast majority of conflict interactions is very ordinary, taking the form of everyday unequal interactions, its very easy to identify a side as terrorists and completely dismiss their story.
On December 01 2012 08:45 KwarK wrote: [quote] If you are unwilling to engage your enemy in conventional warfare then you have the option of becoming insurgents and attacking their military. At no point are you forced into firing rockets into civilian areas or blowing up buses, that's something people choose to do, it's terrorism. A basic guide for those who don't know Military kills military = war Military kills civilian = war crime Paramilitary kills military = resistance Paramilitary kills civilian = terrorism
Terrorism is not going to win them the war, no matter how asymmetrical it is.
Still not getting it, eh? They have absolutely no chance of winning a war, everyone knows that. They have no chance of winning through diplomacy since the US and its puppets have no interest in anything other than Israeli interests.
Essentially we have a state, Palestine, that has no physical or peaceful recourse. It is a state that, if things continue as they are, will simply vanish into the pages of history.
They do what they do because they are fighting in the only way they still can, and I'll be damned before I can condemn a nation fighting tyranny with the only means available to it.
Firstly, war was only one of the four things I described, military against military and that was just a clarification for people like yourself. Secondly, you realise that the number of Palestinians is increasing exponentially and has been ever since Israel took their land, right? That this is the type of genocide in which the population being targeted is given massive amounts of humanitarian aid and undergoes explosive population growth, ie not genocide. They're not vanishing. Thirdly, only means available to it? I outlined two options for paramilitary groups and said the one that attacks the civilians is terrorism, where are you getting this "only means" thing from. Blowing up buses is not, and never has been, the only means. It doesn't even qualify as means at all because it does nothing but strengthens Israeli resolve.
Your "clarification" is meaningless to me, make up some new "clarifications" I can ignore.
Did I just read massive amounts of humanitarian aid? What am I reading? These people are being sustained on a subsistence level.
Sorry, what were the other means available to it? Targeting Israeli bases with their home made rockets? Hell, even with some of the good rockets they get from Iran they still couldn't even dent the Israeli army.
Their only hope for peace is from outside help. No one in the West right now would even know what Palastine is without these "terrorist" attacks. Could it be a cry for help?
Do you know what subsistence means? I'm pretty sure you don't. Imagine you have two million people and you give them subsistence level food for two million people. Do you know what happens to the baby born that makes it two million and one? He starves. Twenty years ago there were two million Palestinians. Now there are four million Palestinians. Clearly they are getting a surplus of food.
I like your ignorant style Kwark, you must be a teacher.
Maybe you should look up subsistence, and realize it implies nothing of the sort. These people are getting what they need, not some incredible surplus that produces a healthy population.
If you give people the bare minimum they need to survive then the population does not explode for both biological and social reasons. Fertility decreases under harsh conditions and people choose not to undergo the expenses of increased family size. Children are a luxury and the Palestinians have been having more of them than pretty much any group on earth. Their recent population growth is astounding. This is not a people being wiped out.
Populations are growing in similar rates in India and Bangladesh (two of the poorest countries in the world). I think you sound disturbingly cold when you address the situation of the Palestinians in general.
It gets frustrating to hear this rhetoric about the Israeli extermination of the Palestinians as their numbers continue to grow at ever increasing rates and the demands of their growing population are met primarily at the expense of Israel.
Come on. It is like calling the food in prison humanitarian aid. I have been saying this over and over again in this thread and your only response is... rhetoric.
Ugh, someone made an argument against me, better call it rhetoric to make it sound bad. Your rhetoric is lacking. Prisons have an obligation to provide inmates with food. Does Israel have an obligation to provide Palestine with food? If yes, then it probably isn't deserving of its sovereignty. If no, then Israel is providing humanitarian aid.
Still not getting it, eh? They have absolutely no chance of winning a war, everyone knows that. They have no chance of winning through diplomacy since the US and its puppets have no interest in anything other than Israeli interests.
Essentially we have a state, Palestine, that has no physical or peaceful recourse. It is a state that, if things continue as they are, will simply vanish into the pages of history.
They do what they do because they are fighting in the only way they still can, and I'll be damned before I can condemn a nation fighting tyranny with the only means available to it.
Firstly, war was only one of the four things I described, military against military and that was just a clarification for people like yourself. Secondly, you realise that the number of Palestinians is increasing exponentially and has been ever since Israel took their land, right? That this is the type of genocide in which the population being targeted is given massive amounts of humanitarian aid and undergoes explosive population growth, ie not genocide. They're not vanishing. Thirdly, only means available to it? I outlined two options for paramilitary groups and said the one that attacks the civilians is terrorism, where are you getting this "only means" thing from. Blowing up buses is not, and never has been, the only means. It doesn't even qualify as means at all because it does nothing but strengthens Israeli resolve.
Your "clarification" is meaningless to me, make up some new "clarifications" I can ignore.
Did I just read massive amounts of humanitarian aid? What am I reading? These people are being sustained on a subsistence level.
Sorry, what were the other means available to it? Targeting Israeli bases with their home made rockets? Hell, even with some of the good rockets they get from Iran they still couldn't even dent the Israeli army.
Their only hope for peace is from outside help. No one in the West right now would even know what Palastine is without these "terrorist" attacks. Could it be a cry for help?
Do you know what subsistence means? I'm pretty sure you don't. Imagine you have two million people and you give them subsistence level food for two million people. Do you know what happens to the baby born that makes it two million and one? He starves. Twenty years ago there were two million Palestinians. Now there are four million Palestinians. Clearly they are getting a surplus of food.
I like your ignorant style Kwark, you must be a teacher.
Maybe you should look up subsistence, and realize it implies nothing of the sort. These people are getting what they need, not some incredible surplus that produces a healthy population.
If you give people the bare minimum they need to survive then the population does not explode for both biological and social reasons. Fertility decreases under harsh conditions and people choose not to undergo the expenses of increased family size. Children are a luxury and the Palestinians have been having more of them than pretty much any group on earth. Their recent population growth is astounding. This is not a people being wiped out.
Populations are growing in similar rates in India and Bangladesh (two of the poorest countries in the world). I think you sound disturbingly cold when you address the situation of the Palestinians in general.
It gets frustrating to hear this rhetoric about the Israeli extermination of the Palestinians as their numbers continue to grow at ever increasing rates and the demands of their growing population are met primarily at the expense of Israel.
Come on. It is like calling the food in prison humanitarian aid. I have been saying this over and over again in this thread and your only response is... rhetoric.
Ugh, someone made an argument against me, better call it rhetoric to make it sound bad. Your rhetoric is lacking. Prisons have an obligation to provide inmates with food. Does Israel have an obligation to provide Palestine with food? If yes, then it probably isn't deserving of its sovereignty. If no, then Israel is providing humanitarian aid.
The point you're missing is that Israel has an obligation to not "imprison" Palestine.
Not that I can completely agree with the point, Israel has to limit Palestine to prevent the influx of weapons/insurgents; which then is counter-pointed by Israeli policy of building settlements on occupied Palestinian land. Bah, headache.
i'm sure i can dig up neuropsych research that will show you the strength of the retributive impulse in the vast majority of people. it's a very low level reaction, and thus strong. i'm not saying you guys are all rednecks or something. it is just that, this type of "they did something very terrible so they deserve whatever it is that's due" moral thinking is very common and easy to fall into. it clearly does not resolve the current situation, and would not even account for the disproportionate level of human suffering on the palestine side.
of course, this argument can be made against palestinians too. but that's even less likely to succeed. israel always has the option of redeeming itself though. a good faithed image campaign, momentous granting of freedom of movement and commerce for palestine, etc. it is israel's choice whether to treat this as a case of a severe domestic, human rights issue. i'm sure there are friends in israel who agree.
Still not getting it, eh? They have absolutely no chance of winning a war, everyone knows that. They have no chance of winning through diplomacy since the US and its puppets have no interest in anything other than Israeli interests.
Essentially we have a state, Palestine, that has no physical or peaceful recourse. It is a state that, if things continue as they are, will simply vanish into the pages of history.
They do what they do because they are fighting in the only way they still can, and I'll be damned before I can condemn a nation fighting tyranny with the only means available to it.
Firstly, war was only one of the four things I described, military against military and that was just a clarification for people like yourself. Secondly, you realise that the number of Palestinians is increasing exponentially and has been ever since Israel took their land, right? That this is the type of genocide in which the population being targeted is given massive amounts of humanitarian aid and undergoes explosive population growth, ie not genocide. They're not vanishing. Thirdly, only means available to it? I outlined two options for paramilitary groups and said the one that attacks the civilians is terrorism, where are you getting this "only means" thing from. Blowing up buses is not, and never has been, the only means. It doesn't even qualify as means at all because it does nothing but strengthens Israeli resolve.
Your "clarification" is meaningless to me, make up some new "clarifications" I can ignore.
Did I just read massive amounts of humanitarian aid? What am I reading? These people are being sustained on a subsistence level.
Sorry, what were the other means available to it? Targeting Israeli bases with their home made rockets? Hell, even with some of the good rockets they get from Iran they still couldn't even dent the Israeli army.
Their only hope for peace is from outside help. No one in the West right now would even know what Palastine is without these "terrorist" attacks. Could it be a cry for help?
Do you know what subsistence means? I'm pretty sure you don't. Imagine you have two million people and you give them subsistence level food for two million people. Do you know what happens to the baby born that makes it two million and one? He starves. Twenty years ago there were two million Palestinians. Now there are four million Palestinians. Clearly they are getting a surplus of food.
I like your ignorant style Kwark, you must be a teacher.
Maybe you should look up subsistence, and realize it implies nothing of the sort. These people are getting what they need, not some incredible surplus that produces a healthy population.
If you give people the bare minimum they need to survive then the population does not explode for both biological and social reasons. Fertility decreases under harsh conditions and people choose not to undergo the expenses of increased family size. Children are a luxury and the Palestinians have been having more of them than pretty much any group on earth. Their recent population growth is astounding. This is not a people being wiped out.
Populations are growing in similar rates in India and Bangladesh (two of the poorest countries in the world). I think you sound disturbingly cold when you address the situation of the Palestinians in general.
It gets frustrating to hear this rhetoric about the Israeli extermination of the Palestinians as their numbers continue to grow at ever increasing rates and the demands of their growing population are met primarily at the expense of Israel.
Come on. It is like calling the food in prison humanitarian aid. I have been saying this over and over again in this thread and your only response is... rhetoric.
Ugh, someone made an argument against me, better call it rhetoric to make it sound bad. Your rhetoric is lacking. Prisons have an obligation to provide inmates with food. Does Israel have an obligation to provide Palestine with food? If yes, then it probably isn't deserving of its sovereignty. If no, then Israel is providing humanitarian aid.
On December 01 2012 03:21 oneofthem wrote: that this crisis is happening on israel's doorsteps does in itself put responsibility on israel to do something, particularly when active measures are contributing to the ongoing situation.
This would be why Israel gives a colossal amount of humanitarian aid to Palestine?
Which doesn't correspond even to a small bit to what they make out of the land that legally belongs to the Palestinians? They don't let the Palestinians trade or export their goods, they don't give them access to what used to be their cultivable land, they don't let them fish more than 10 km from the cost. They keep them alive, barely, but talking about humanitarian aid is just too much, in my opinion.
In many ways this is like being in prison. That is way Gaza is often called the worlds largest open air prison.
On December 01 2012 10:05 oneofthem wrote: i'm sure i can dig up neuropsych research that will show you the strength of the retributive impulse in the vast majority of people. it's a very low level reaction, and thus strong. i'm not saying you guys are all rednecks or something. it is just that, this type of "they did something very terrible so they deserve whatever it is that's due" moral thinking is very common and easy to fall into. it clearly does not resolve the current situation, and would not even account for the disproportionate level of human suffering on the palestine side.
of course, this argument can be made against palestinians too. but that's even less likely to succeed. israel always has the option of redeeming itself though. a good faithed image campaign, momentous granting of freedom of movement and commerce for palestine, etc.
You know the whole freedom of movement thing would be a great idea if there wasn't such a large and motivated population of Palestinians who would revel at the chance to blow themselves up in Israel.
Minor problem. Would be kind of like the United States recruiting immigrants from Al Qaeda.
On December 01 2012 10:05 oneofthem wrote: i'm sure i can dig up neuropsych research that will show you the strength of the retributive impulse in the vast majority of people. it's a very low level reaction, and thus strong. i'm not saying you guys are all rednecks or something. it is just that, this type of "they did something very terrible so they deserve whatever it is that's due" moral thinking is very common and easy to fall into. it clearly does not resolve the current situation, and would not even account for the disproportionate level of human suffering on the palestine side.
of course, this argument can be made against palestinians too. but that's even less likely to succeed. israel always has the option of redeeming itself though. a good faithed image campaign, momentous granting of freedom of movement and commerce for palestine, etc.
You know the whole freedom of movement thing would be a great idea if there wasn't such a large and motivated population of Palestinians who would revel at the chance to blow themselves up in Israel.
Minor problem. Would be kind of like the United States recruiting immigrants from Al Qaeda.
if palestinians can get jobs by traveling to israel, the vast majority of those migrants will be looking for jobs rather than causing trouble. it will maybe be painful for a few years, but there is no other way of stabilizing the situation while also providing a long term bridge.
since you are american, maybe you can think of it this way. the palestinian situation is kind of like a ghetto gone bad, by gone bad, we mean it has developed a gang problem. the solution is not to bomb the ghetto and further disrupt things in order to hunt down gangster kids, it is rather the much harder problem of revitalizing that group of the population.
okay, maybe not the best analogy to convince americans, but hey, this is why american involvement in this situation hasn't been very productive lol!
just read up on retributive vs restorative justice.
On December 01 2012 10:05 oneofthem wrote: i'm sure i can dig up neuropsych research that will show you the strength of the retributive impulse in the vast majority of people. it's a very low level reaction, and thus strong. i'm not saying you guys are all rednecks or something. it is just that, this type of "they did something very terrible so they deserve whatever it is that's due" moral thinking is very common and easy to fall into. it clearly does not resolve the current situation, and would not even account for the disproportionate level of human suffering on the palestine side.
of course, this argument can be made against palestinians too. but that's even less likely to succeed. israel always has the option of redeeming itself though. a good faithed image campaign, momentous granting of freedom of movement and commerce for palestine, etc.
You know the whole freedom of movement thing would be a great idea if there wasn't such a large and motivated population of Palestinians who would revel at the chance to blow themselves up in Israel.
Minor problem. Would be kind of like the United States recruiting immigrants from Al Qaeda.
if palestinians can get jobs by traveling to israel, the vast majority of those migrants will be looking for jobs rather than causing trouble. it will maybe be painful for a few years, but there is no other way of stabilizing the situation while also providing a long term bridge.
since you are american, maybe you can think of it this way. the palestinian situation is kind of like a ghetto gone bad, by gone bad, we mean it has developed a gang problem. the solution is not to bomb the ghetto and further disrupt things in order to hunt down gangster kids, it is rather the much harder problem of revitalizing that group of the population.
okay, maybe not the best analogy to convince americans, but hey, this is why american involvement in this situation hasn't been very productive lol! just read up on retributive vs restorative justice.
Unfortunately, in this case Harlem wants the entire city of New York. Lol! In your solution, the Israelis have to die ("it will maybe be painful for a few years"). See how Israel is against that? Yeah. Is it Israel's responsibility to stabilize the region? Because nobody else in the area gives two shits about Palestine. Pretty sad when the Israelis are both your only friend and only enemy.
I fully understand the concepts of retributive vs restorative justice, and the former irks me. However this is not a case of justice, this is a case of "Oh well Israel should let Palestinians do whatever the hell they want because it will help them!"
On December 01 2012 10:05 oneofthem wrote: i'm sure i can dig up neuropsych research that will show you the strength of the retributive impulse in the vast majority of people. it's a very low level reaction, and thus strong. i'm not saying you guys are all rednecks or something. it is just that, this type of "they did something very terrible so they deserve whatever it is that's due" moral thinking is very common and easy to fall into. it clearly does not resolve the current situation, and would not even account for the disproportionate level of human suffering on the palestine side.
of course, this argument can be made against palestinians too. but that's even less likely to succeed. israel always has the option of redeeming itself though. a good faithed image campaign, momentous granting of freedom of movement and commerce for palestine, etc.
You know the whole freedom of movement thing would be a great idea if there wasn't such a large and motivated population of Palestinians who would revel at the chance to blow themselves up in Israel.
Minor problem. Would be kind of like the United States recruiting immigrants from Al Qaeda.
if palestinians can get jobs by traveling to israel, the vast majority of those migrants will be looking for jobs rather than causing trouble. it will maybe be painful for a few years, but there is no other way of stabilizing the situation while also providing a long term bridge.
since you are american, maybe you can think of it this way. the palestinian situation is kind of like a ghetto gone bad, by gone bad, we mean it has developed a gang problem. the solution is not to bomb the ghetto and further disrupt things in order to hunt down gangster kids, it is rather the much harder problem of revitalizing that group of the population.
okay, maybe not the best analogy to convince americans, but hey, this is why american involvement in this situation hasn't been very productive lol!
Unfortunately, in this case Harlem wants the entire city of New York. Lol!
maybe right now, not going to be the case with sufficient outreach and integration. not something to lol about unless you think the black panthers etc are inevitable.
The silent majority does not believe that all terrorists are Arabs, at least not in my country.
Neither in mine. In fact, i believe that every country has it's share of terroristic activities in the last 100 years. That includes germany, the UK, the US, and all the other countries that are oh so developed (and yes, i am from germany). Except maybe Canada. After watching "just for laughs", i somehow compare it with carebear-land.
It would be funny if the palestinians could sue Israel for warcrimes than they can just breed their way to victory.
Sadly, i don't believe there is any unbiased institution to judge such a "lawsuit".
On December 01 2012 10:05 oneofthem wrote: i'm sure i can dig up neuropsych research that will show you the strength of the retributive impulse in the vast majority of people. it's a very low level reaction, and thus strong. i'm not saying you guys are all rednecks or something. it is just that, this type of "they did something very terrible so they deserve whatever it is that's due" moral thinking is very common and easy to fall into. it clearly does not resolve the current situation, and would not even account for the disproportionate level of human suffering on the palestine side.
of course, this argument can be made against palestinians too. but that's even less likely to succeed. israel always has the option of redeeming itself though. a good faithed image campaign, momentous granting of freedom of movement and commerce for palestine, etc.
You know the whole freedom of movement thing would be a great idea if there wasn't such a large and motivated population of Palestinians who would revel at the chance to blow themselves up in Israel.
Minor problem. Would be kind of like the United States recruiting immigrants from Al Qaeda.
if palestinians can get jobs by traveling to israel, the vast majority of those migrants will be looking for jobs rather than causing trouble. it will maybe be painful for a few years, but there is no other way of stabilizing the situation while also providing a long term bridge.
since you are american, maybe you can think of it this way. the palestinian situation is kind of like a ghetto gone bad, by gone bad, we mean it has developed a gang problem. the solution is not to bomb the ghetto and further disrupt things in order to hunt down gangster kids, it is rather the much harder problem of revitalizing that group of the population.
okay, maybe not the best analogy to convince americans, but hey, this is why american involvement in this situation hasn't been very productive lol! just read up on retributive vs restorative justice.
Unfortunately, in this case Harlem wants the entire city of New York. Lol! In your solution, the Israelis have to die ("it will maybe be painful for a few years"). See how Israel is against that? Yeah. Is it Israel's responsibility to stabilize the region? Because nobody else in the area gives two shits about Palestine. Pretty sad when the Israelis are both your only friend and only enemy.
I fully understand the concepts of retributive vs restorative justice, and the former irks me. However this is not a case of justice, this is a case of "Oh well Israel should let Palestinians do whatever the hell they want because it will help them!"
israel is not under any existential crisis. except maybe if they let this situation fester some more.
i don't see how "israel" would die. a few cases of sabotage maybe, but after that the terrorists should lose even the palestinians, if israel does not bend its will for integration. and you should not assume palestinian attitudes cannot change, when even the most hated colonial masters have been living with former slaves in peace for a long time.
as i see it, you and other members of the peanut gallery are mostly reacting against what you see as liberal bias supporting palestine, white washing terrorist conduct etc. this is missing the bigger picture of trying to solve the situation.
edit: if you understand retribution then you won't be posting tripe.
On December 01 2012 10:05 oneofthem wrote: i'm sure i can dig up neuropsych research that will show you the strength of the retributive impulse in the vast majority of people. it's a very low level reaction, and thus strong. i'm not saying you guys are all rednecks or something. it is just that, this type of "they did something very terrible so they deserve whatever it is that's due" moral thinking is very common and easy to fall into. it clearly does not resolve the current situation, and would not even account for the disproportionate level of human suffering on the palestine side.
of course, this argument can be made against palestinians too. but that's even less likely to succeed. israel always has the option of redeeming itself though. a good faithed image campaign, momentous granting of freedom of movement and commerce for palestine, etc.
You know the whole freedom of movement thing would be a great idea if there wasn't such a large and motivated population of Palestinians who would revel at the chance to blow themselves up in Israel.
Minor problem. Would be kind of like the United States recruiting immigrants from Al Qaeda.
if palestinians can get jobs by traveling to israel, the vast majority of those migrants will be looking for jobs rather than causing trouble. it will maybe be painful for a few years, but there is no other way of stabilizing the situation while also providing a long term bridge.
since you are american, maybe you can think of it this way. the palestinian situation is kind of like a ghetto gone bad, by gone bad, we mean it has developed a gang problem. the solution is not to bomb the ghetto and further disrupt things in order to hunt down gangster kids, it is rather the much harder problem of revitalizing that group of the population.
okay, maybe not the best analogy to convince americans, but hey, this is why american involvement in this situation hasn't been very productive lol! just read up on retributive vs restorative justice.
Unfortunately, in this case Harlem wants the entire city of New York. Lol! In your solution, the Israelis have to die ("it will maybe be painful for a few years"). See how Israel is against that? Yeah. Is it Israel's responsibility to stabilize the region? Because nobody else in the area gives two shits about Palestine. Pretty sad when the Israelis are both your only friend and only enemy.
I fully understand the concepts of retributive vs restorative justice, and the former irks me. However this is not a case of justice, this is a case of "Oh well Israel should let Palestinians do whatever the hell they want because it will help them!"
israel is not under any existential crisis. except maybe if they let this situation fester some more.
i don't see how "israel" would die. a few cases of sabotage maybe, but after that the terrorists should lose even the palestinians, if israel does not bend its will for integration. and you should not assume palestinian attitudes cannot change, when even the most hated colonial masters have been living with former slaves in peace for a long time.
as i see it, you and other members of the peanut gallery are mostly reacting against what you see as liberal bias supporting palestine, white washing terrorist conduct etc. this is missing the bigger picture of trying to solve the situation.
Actually no, i think you are the one missing the point here. What is being accepted into the U.N. is a pawn in a bigger game, granted, but is also a showing of how the U.N. wants to break the control of the U.S. Furthermore, those few cases of sabotage, if conducted in any other country, would result in full scale attacks. I'm confused why a country that supposedly many people think is such shit is held to such a high standard that it may only defend when its adversary is allowed to continually attack. Also Israel isn't against integration, LOL, there are many Israeli arabs, tons of europeans, etc. Israel is a free country, now if a jew were to walk to the Ma'arat hama'achpelah when it is not the month that they are alotted,that jew would get killed by the palestinians in the area. Tell me, which of those is an iron grip that needs to bend backwards for integration. You are too quick to dismiss the Israeli point of view in favor of the palestinian one which really isn't going anywhere once they achieve statehood.
On December 01 2012 10:05 oneofthem wrote: i'm sure i can dig up neuropsych research that will show you the strength of the retributive impulse in the vast majority of people. it's a very low level reaction, and thus strong. i'm not saying you guys are all rednecks or something. it is just that, this type of "they did something very terrible so they deserve whatever it is that's due" moral thinking is very common and easy to fall into. it clearly does not resolve the current situation, and would not even account for the disproportionate level of human suffering on the palestine side.
of course, this argument can be made against palestinians too. but that's even less likely to succeed. israel always has the option of redeeming itself though. a good faithed image campaign, momentous granting of freedom of movement and commerce for palestine, etc.
You know the whole freedom of movement thing would be a great idea if there wasn't such a large and motivated population of Palestinians who would revel at the chance to blow themselves up in Israel.
Minor problem. Would be kind of like the United States recruiting immigrants from Al Qaeda.
if palestinians can get jobs by traveling to israel, the vast majority of those migrants will be looking for jobs rather than causing trouble. it will maybe be painful for a few years, but there is no other way of stabilizing the situation while also providing a long term bridge.
since you are american, maybe you can think of it this way. the palestinian situation is kind of like a ghetto gone bad, by gone bad, we mean it has developed a gang problem. the solution is not to bomb the ghetto and further disrupt things in order to hunt down gangster kids, it is rather the much harder problem of revitalizing that group of the population.
okay, maybe not the best analogy to convince americans, but hey, this is why american involvement in this situation hasn't been very productive lol! just read up on retributive vs restorative justice.
Unfortunately, in this case Harlem wants the entire city of New York. Lol! In your solution, the Israelis have to die ("it will maybe be painful for a few years"). See how Israel is against that? Yeah. Is it Israel's responsibility to stabilize the region? Because nobody else in the area gives two shits about Palestine. Pretty sad when the Israelis are both your only friend and only enemy.
I fully understand the concepts of retributive vs restorative justice, and the former irks me. However this is not a case of justice, this is a case of "Oh well Israel should let Palestinians do whatever the hell they want because it will help them!"
israel is not under any existential crisis. except maybe if they let this situation fester some more.
i don't see how "israel" would die. a few cases of sabotage maybe, but after that the terrorists should lose even the palestinians, if israel does not bend its will for integration. and you should not assume palestinian attitudes cannot change, when even the most hated colonial masters have been living with former slaves in peace for a long time.
as i see it, you and other members of the peanut gallery are mostly reacting against what you see as liberal bias supporting palestine, white washing terrorist conduct etc. this is missing the bigger picture of trying to solve the situation.
Nobody has said that Palestinians can't change. I'm saying that the immediate cost of massive terrorist attacks isn't worth for Israel.
Open the borders. OK then Now all of the people who are blindly firing rockets can go fire them off in Israel itself. Lets see how ineffective they are at point blank range. Can you now understand why Israel doesn't want that?
Unregulated borders is an unrealistic request for Israel, or any other country in the region.
On December 01 2012 10:05 oneofthem wrote: i'm sure i can dig up neuropsych research that will show you the strength of the retributive impulse in the vast majority of people. it's a very low level reaction, and thus strong. i'm not saying you guys are all rednecks or something. it is just that, this type of "they did something very terrible so they deserve whatever it is that's due" moral thinking is very common and easy to fall into. it clearly does not resolve the current situation, and would not even account for the disproportionate level of human suffering on the palestine side.
of course, this argument can be made against palestinians too. but that's even less likely to succeed. israel always has the option of redeeming itself though. a good faithed image campaign, momentous granting of freedom of movement and commerce for palestine, etc.
You know the whole freedom of movement thing would be a great idea if there wasn't such a large and motivated population of Palestinians who would revel at the chance to blow themselves up in Israel.
Minor problem. Would be kind of like the United States recruiting immigrants from Al Qaeda.
if palestinians can get jobs by traveling to israel, the vast majority of those migrants will be looking for jobs rather than causing trouble. it will maybe be painful for a few years, but there is no other way of stabilizing the situation while also providing a long term bridge.
since you are american, maybe you can think of it this way. the palestinian situation is kind of like a ghetto gone bad, by gone bad, we mean it has developed a gang problem. the solution is not to bomb the ghetto and further disrupt things in order to hunt down gangster kids, it is rather the much harder problem of revitalizing that group of the population.
okay, maybe not the best analogy to convince americans, but hey, this is why american involvement in this situation hasn't been very productive lol! just read up on retributive vs restorative justice.
Unfortunately, in this case Harlem wants the entire city of New York. Lol! In your solution, the Israelis have to die ("it will maybe be painful for a few years"). See how Israel is against that? Yeah. Is it Israel's responsibility to stabilize the region? Because nobody else in the area gives two shits about Palestine. Pretty sad when the Israelis are both your only friend and only enemy.
I fully understand the concepts of retributive vs restorative justice, and the former irks me. However this is not a case of justice, this is a case of "Oh well Israel should let Palestinians do whatever the hell they want because it will help them!"
israel is not under any existential crisis. except maybe if they let this situation fester some more.
i don't see how "israel" would die. a few cases of sabotage maybe, but after that the terrorists should lose even the palestinians, if israel does not bend its will for integration. and you should not assume palestinian attitudes cannot change, when even the most hated colonial masters have been living with former slaves in peace for a long time.
as i see it, you and other members of the peanut gallery are mostly reacting against what you see as liberal bias supporting palestine, white washing terrorist conduct etc. this is missing the bigger picture of trying to solve the situation.
Actually no, i think you are the one missing the point here. What is being accepted into the U.N. is a pawn in a bigger game, granted, but is also a showing of how the U.N. wants to break the control of the U.S. Furthermore, those few cases of sabotage, if conducted in any other country, would result in full scale attacks. I'm confused why a country that supposedly many people think is such shit is held to such a high standard that it may only defend when its adversary is allowed to continually attack. Also Israel isn't against integration, LOL, there are many Israeli arabs, tons of europeans, etc. Israel is a free country, now if a jew were to walk to the Ma'arat hama'achpelah when it is not the month that they are alotted,that jew would get killed by the palestinians in the area. Tell me, which of those is an iron grip that needs to bend backwards for integration. You are too quick to dismiss the Israeli point of view in favor of the palestinian one which really isn't going anywhere once they achieve statehood.
i don't think the u.n. thing is of much consequence. the issue is as you say, the adversarial way of thinking. unless israel is satisfies with keeping palestinians in this refugee camp situation forever, they have to make bigger strides in resolving the situation.
as for why the high standard, partly because it is not a standard but a solution. at issue is not whether israel should be condemned etc, but what can it do and do better, if only to help itself. i don't think palestinians are angels, but it's kind of like blaming a raving, starving guy for robbery and expect that to solve anything. israel has the resources and the position to exercise greater agency.
my view is this, as long as palestinians are not demanding that israel's rights be compromised, they should be given full rights to participate in israeli society, or at least good paths of building its own economy.
EPT
