On December 01 2012 00:58 Crownlol wrote: I'd say that saying "the jewish media has its control over the American population" is more than just hints of antisemitism, its outright antisemitic.
I'd argue it's outright true. Any media in the West (particularly the US) is highly favorable to the Israeli position. You will often hear of the Israelis "defending" themselves (how can you defend yourself in occupied soil?) and the Israeli death toll. It is hilarious to watch coverage of the same news story on American TV versus that of the BBC or Aljazeera. You will see it is highly biased (watch a documentary called Peace Propaganda and the Promised land for an introduction to this practice.)
All you ever hear is the Palestinian "terrorists" attacking the "peaceful, democratic" Israelis. Never does it mention that for every Israeli killed, something like 8 or 9 Palestinians are killed.
Everyone should listen to world renown scholar Noam Chomsky speak on this subject. He is Jewish and spent a great amount of time in Israel, being connected to it through friends and family. He also happens to be the most outspoken critic of Israeli expansion in Palestine. He himself refers to many Israeli practices as barbarous and that Israel has reduced Palestine to an open air prison.
I ask you, if one of the smartest people in the world, Noam Chomsky, who is also Jewish and loves Israel is totally against its foreign policy and stance on Palestine, why is anyone in the West for it? Oh, it's because scholars like Chomsky are shunned from mainstream media because their goal of peace is not the goal of the corporate taskmasters.
Meh, media bias, even to a large degree, is still nowhere near the blanket statement of "jewish media has its control over the American population".
I don't agree with Israel not retaliating, although I definitely am against the settlements. Chucking rockets into Israel is only going to legitimize their "retaliation", so I would argue it's far better off not to do it. Something like 8 or 9 Palestinians are killed for every Israeli death is because Hamas hides its munitions and soldiers in densely populated areas. This creates a "be damned if do and damned if don't" situation, so Israel exercises its right to retaliate. Tragic, but not entirely their fault.
Your statement insinuating that if "one of the smartest people in the world" is against foreign policy on Palestine, then the western hemisphere should follow suit is riddled with flaws. I'm pretty sure there are people as smart as Chomsky on the other side, that are for even more extreme policies. Smartness does not validate his opinions. Perhaps his morality does, but definitely not his intellect.
I love your point of Hamas hiding in densely populated areas and using schools etc. This is a hilarious representation of mainsteam media. Have you seen how tiny Gaza is? There is nowhere within it that isn't densely populated. I also don't understand the argument that it would be better for the Palestinians not to fire rockets. They do it, because it's all they can do. People with Western attitudes think it would be better for them to stop, but I ask, then what happens? If they didn't do this you would never even hear about Palestine, and the Israeli expansions would continue until one day there is only Israel. I don't agree with suicide bombing or targeting of civilians, but what other discourse do these people have when even the US, the supposed beacon of freedom and liberty, are against you.
On Chomsky, I must say, there are no people on the other side as smart as him. The man is a walking encyclopedia, which is mainly why I referred to his superior intelligence, rather than his superior morality. Chomsky makes mince meat out of anyone he debates.
One of the smartest people on "the other side," is Alan Dershowitz, frankfurter professor at Harvard. Watch this debate.
Note how Chomsky uses nothing but facts, and one of the smartest people on "the other side" does nothing but sink to ad hominems almost immediately.
The fact is, when debating this subject, the Israelis can't use facts, because all the facts are against them, so they use clever tactics to sway public opinion and discredit those speaking the truth.
Oh, a hilarious representation? Hahaha. No. Fact is, Hamas can reduce the cost of their own people's lives. And they choose not to do so to incite negative propaganda against Israel. You can't argue against hiding in hospitals and kindergartens.
They do it, because it's all they can do? What is this I don't even. Are you truly believing that terrorism is ALL that's left for Palestinians? Then I say they are better off being absorbed into Israel.
Smartness does not equate to being a walking encyclopedia, nor being able to dish out facts. It, sadly, is about being smart enough to "use clever tactics to sway public opinion and discredit those speaking the truth".
On December 01 2012 03:21 oneofthem wrote: that this crisis is happening on israel's doorsteps does in itself put responsibility on israel to do something, particularly when active measures are contributing to the ongoing situation.
This would be why Israel gives a colossal amount of humanitarian aid to Palestine?
Which doesn't correspond even to a small bit to what they make out of the land that legally belongs to the Palestinians? They don't let the Palestinians trade or export their goods, they don't give them access to what used to be their cultivable land, they don't let them fish more than 10 km from the cost. They keep them alive, barely, but talking about humanitarian aid is just too much, in my opinion.
On December 01 2012 03:24 oneofthem wrote: can a palestinian guy get a job in israel?
status and social capital is the new land in a modern economy.
By Palestinian do you mean an Israeli citizen of Arab descent? Ethnicity and nationality are different things, an ethnically Palestinian Israeli citizen has all the same rights as any other Israeli and is furthermore not required to do compulsory military service.
On December 01 2012 03:21 oneofthem wrote: that this crisis is happening on israel's doorsteps does in itself put responsibility on israel to do something, particularly when active measures are contributing to the ongoing situation.
This would be why Israel gives a colossal amount of humanitarian aid to Palestine?
Which doesn't correspond even to a small bit to what they make out of the land that legally belongs to the Palestinians? They don't let the Palestinians trade or export their goods, they don't give them access to what used to be their cultivable land, they don't let them fish more than 10 km from the cost. They keep them alive, barely, but talking about humanitarian aid is just too much, in my opinion.
Wait. I was informed, in this thread, that the land does not legally belong to the Palestinians? Am I wrong?
On December 01 2012 03:21 oneofthem wrote: that this crisis is happening on israel's doorsteps does in itself put responsibility on israel to do something, particularly when active measures are contributing to the ongoing situation.
This would be why Israel gives a colossal amount of humanitarian aid to Palestine?
Which doesn't correspond even to a small bit to what they make out of the land that legally belongs to the Palestinians? They don't let the Palestinians trade or export their goods, they don't give them access to what used to be their cultivable land, they don't let them fish more than 10 km from the cost. They keep them alive, barely, but talking about humanitarian aid is just too much, in my opinion.
I think you mean legally belonged to the British when they inherited the rights of the Turks. Either way, dwelling on the injustices of 60 years ago does absolutely nothing to help the Palestinians alive today.
On December 01 2012 03:24 oneofthem wrote: can a palestinian guy get a job in israel?
status and social capital is the new land in a modern economy.
By Palestinian do you mean an Israeli citizen of Arab descent? Ethnicity and nationality are different things, an ethnically Palestinian Israeli citizen has all the same rights as any other Israeli and is furthermore not required to do compulsory military service.
Israel disagrees with you, as they continue to deny the existence of an "Israeli" nationality.
On December 01 2012 03:21 oneofthem wrote: that this crisis is happening on israel's doorsteps does in itself put responsibility on israel to do something, particularly when active measures are contributing to the ongoing situation.
This would be why Israel gives a colossal amount of humanitarian aid to Palestine?
Which doesn't correspond even to a small bit to what they make out of the land that legally belongs to the Palestinians? They don't let the Palestinians trade or export their goods, they don't give them access to what used to be their cultivable land, they don't let them fish more than 10 km from the cost. They keep them alive, barely, but talking about humanitarian aid is just too much, in my opinion.
Wait. I was informed, in this thread, that the land does not legally belong to the Palestinians? Am I wrong?
It depends how you define "their land". The Palestinians lived and worked on it and did not consent to the UN partition in 1947 but the vast majority of the land was not owned by them due to great power politics.
On December 01 2012 03:24 oneofthem wrote: can a palestinian guy get a job in israel?
status and social capital is the new land in a modern economy.
By Palestinian do you mean an Israeli citizen of Arab descent? Ethnicity and nationality are different things, an ethnically Palestinian Israeli citizen has all the same rights as any other Israeli and is furthermore not required to do compulsory military service.
um, no, i obviously mean those who are denied the rights that israeli citizenship confer.
On December 01 2012 03:24 oneofthem wrote: can a palestinian guy get a job in israel?
status and social capital is the new land in a modern economy.
By Palestinian do you mean an Israeli citizen of Arab descent? Ethnicity and nationality are different things, an ethnically Palestinian Israeli citizen has all the same rights as any other Israeli and is furthermore not required to do compulsory military service.
Israel disagrees with you, as they continue to deny the existence of an "Israeli" nationality.
Care to source this? Nationality is just the country of which you are a citizen and as Israelis can vote, run for public office, hold passports and the like I think it is very evident that it does exist and that Israel knows it exists.
On December 01 2012 03:21 oneofthem wrote: that this crisis is happening on israel's doorsteps does in itself put responsibility on israel to do something, particularly when active measures are contributing to the ongoing situation.
This would be why Israel gives a colossal amount of humanitarian aid to Palestine?
Which doesn't correspond even to a small bit to what they make out of the land that legally belongs to the Palestinians? They don't let the Palestinians trade or export their goods, they don't give them access to what used to be their cultivable land, they don't let them fish more than 10 km from the cost. They keep them alive, barely, but talking about humanitarian aid is just too much, in my opinion.
I think you mean legally belonged to the British when they inherited the rights of the Turks. Either way, dwelling on the injustices of 60 years ago does absolutely nothing to help the Palestinians alive today.
The problem with discussing "rights to an area" is that it becomes weird because of the countries switching it around. Let's say you're living in Italy. So you're an italian living in your country. Then somehow Russia comes and takes over Italy. So you're russian. Then Russia gives the country to a people without a country, let's say the natives in northern scandinavia. Problem is, they don't want you in "their" country and kicks you out. Now someone could make the claim that you have no legal right to the country because you're not a born russian, but it makes no sense.
On December 01 2012 03:21 oneofthem wrote: that this crisis is happening on israel's doorsteps does in itself put responsibility on israel to do something, particularly when active measures are contributing to the ongoing situation.
This would be why Israel gives a colossal amount of humanitarian aid to Palestine?
Which doesn't correspond even to a small bit to what they make out of the land that legally belongs to the Palestinians? They don't let the Palestinians trade or export their goods, they don't give them access to what used to be their cultivable land, they don't let them fish more than 10 km from the cost. They keep them alive, barely, but talking about humanitarian aid is just too much, in my opinion.
Wait. I was informed, in this thread, that the land does not legally belong to the Palestinians? Am I wrong?
It depends how you define "their land". The Palestinians lived and worked on it and did not consent to the UN partition in 1947 but the vast majority of the land was not owned by them due to great power politics.
they certainly have a stronger claim than whatever arrangements brits thought of
On December 01 2012 03:24 oneofthem wrote: can a palestinian guy get a job in israel?
status and social capital is the new land in a modern economy.
By Palestinian do you mean an Israeli citizen of Arab descent? Ethnicity and nationality are different things, an ethnically Palestinian Israeli citizen has all the same rights as any other Israeli and is furthermore not required to do compulsory military service.
um, no, i obviously mean those who are denied the rights that israeli citizenship confer.
You haven't clarified who you mean at all. You have in fact said "those who are denied the rights do not have the rights". Again, an ethnic Palestinian with Israeli citizenship has all the same rights as any other Israeli including the right to work. An ethnic Palestinian with Iraqi citizenship would not have those rights. Please clarify who you think Israel is denying rights to in terms of both ethnicity and nationality.
On December 01 2012 03:12 blinken wrote: The fact is, when debating this subject, the Israelis can't use facts, because all the facts are against them, so they use clever tactics to sway public opinion and discredit those speaking the truth.
this is a bit much, man. neither side is perfectly innocent, but to claim that there is no fault in the Palestinian position is a bit ridiculous, or that Israel cannot make an argument with facts. here is a fact:
you don't condone these actions, but then you say that the Palestinians don't have any course of action that they can take. that isn't true, because they do have other courses of action that they can take, namely: not electing and supporting Hamas. giving the middle finger to the Arab countries that are using them and instead working with the US and Israel for a peaceful solution would be another good step. it's a little ridiculous to pretend like there is no argument from the Israeli side, no matter what Noam Chomsky says.
On December 01 2012 03:24 oneofthem wrote: can a palestinian guy get a job in israel?
status and social capital is the new land in a modern economy.
By Palestinian do you mean an Israeli citizen of Arab descent? Ethnicity and nationality are different things, an ethnically Palestinian Israeli citizen has all the same rights as any other Israeli and is furthermore not required to do compulsory military service.
um, no, i obviously mean those who are denied the rights that israeli citizenship confer.
You haven't clarified who you mean at all. You have in fact said "those who are denied the rights do not have the rights". Again, an ethnic Palestinian with Israeli citizenship has all the same rights as any other Israeli including the right to work. An ethnic Palestinian with Iraqi citizenship would not have those rights. Please clarify who you think Israel is denying rights to in terms of both ethnicity and nationality.
when you have people in desperate conditions and are not allowed integration into your economy because they don't have the rights to do so, those are the people i am talking about.
taking your starting point as legal categories when discussing the impact of those very categories is circular.
On December 01 2012 03:21 oneofthem wrote: that this crisis is happening on israel's doorsteps does in itself put responsibility on israel to do something, particularly when active measures are contributing to the ongoing situation.
This would be why Israel gives a colossal amount of humanitarian aid to Palestine?
Which doesn't correspond even to a small bit to what they make out of the land that legally belongs to the Palestinians? They don't let the Palestinians trade or export their goods, they don't give them access to what used to be their cultivable land, they don't let them fish more than 10 km from the cost. They keep them alive, barely, but talking about humanitarian aid is just too much, in my opinion.
I think you mean legally belonged to the British when they inherited the rights of the Turks. Either way, dwelling on the injustices of 60 years ago does absolutely nothing to help the Palestinians alive today.
The problem with discussing "rights to an area" is that it becomes weird because of the countries switching it around. Let's say you're living in Italy. So you're an italian living in your country. Then somehow Russia comes and takes over Italy. So you're russian. Then Russia gives the country to a people without a country, let's say the natives in northern scandinavia. Problem is, they don't want you in "their" country and kicks you out. Now someone could make the claim that you have no legal right to the country because you're not a born russian, but it makes no sense.
And you'd be pissed off and you'd have every right to be pissed off. And you'd probably take up arms and fight for your right to live there. But if 60 years later your grandson is upset that he has been denied a life he only imagines because of the injustice done to you then you have to ask yourself what progress you've made in those 60 years. It is simply not realistic for the current generation of Palestinians to ever move back into the land which is now populated and which they never lived on, they need to seek a real solution to the humanitarian crisis rather than creating another generation to suffer because of it.
On December 01 2012 03:12 blinken wrote: The fact is, when debating this subject, the Israelis can't use facts, because all the facts are against them, so they use clever tactics to sway public opinion and discredit those speaking the truth.
this is a bit much, man. neither side is perfectly innocent, but to claim that there is no fault in the Palestinian position is a bit ridiculous, or that Israel cannot make an argument with facts. here is a fact:
you don't condone these actions, but then you say that the Palestinians don't have any course of action that they can take. that isn't true, because they do have other courses of action that they can take, namely: not electing and supporting Hamas. giving the middle finger to the Arab countries that are using them and instead working with the US and Israel for a peaceful solution would be another good step. it's a little ridiculous to pretend like there is no argument from the Israeli side, no matter what Noam Chomsky says.
Now compare with the Palestinian killed and injured in that period. It's a 7 for 1 ratio and worst since 2008-2009.
On December 01 2012 03:24 oneofthem wrote: can a palestinian guy get a job in israel?
status and social capital is the new land in a modern economy.
By Palestinian do you mean an Israeli citizen of Arab descent? Ethnicity and nationality are different things, an ethnically Palestinian Israeli citizen has all the same rights as any other Israeli and is furthermore not required to do compulsory military service.
um, no, i obviously mean those who are denied the rights that israeli citizenship confer.
You haven't clarified who you mean at all. You have in fact said "those who are denied the rights do not have the rights". Again, an ethnic Palestinian with Israeli citizenship has all the same rights as any other Israeli including the right to work. An ethnic Palestinian with Iraqi citizenship would not have those rights. Please clarify who you think Israel is denying rights to in terms of both ethnicity and nationality.
when you have people in desperate conditions and are not allowed integration into your economy because they don't have the rights to do so, those are the people i am talking about.
taking your starting point as legal categories when discussing the impact of those very categories is circular.
You still haven't clarified beyond "those with no rights have no rights". I will concede that those with no rights do indeed have no rights however I continue to make the argument that those with no rights do not include Arabs with Israeli citizenship.
On December 01 2012 00:58 Crownlol wrote: I'd say that saying "the jewish media has its control over the American population" is more than just hints of antisemitism, its outright antisemitic.
I'd argue it's outright true. Any media in the West (particularly the US) is highly favorable to the Israeli position. You will often hear of the Israelis "defending" themselves (how can you defend yourself in occupied soil?) and the Israeli death toll. It is hilarious to watch coverage of the same news story on American TV versus that of the BBC or Aljazeera. You will see it is highly biased (watch a documentary called Peace Propaganda and the Promised land for an introduction to this practice.)
All you ever hear is the Palestinian "terrorists" attacking the "peaceful, democratic" Israelis. Never does it mention that for every Israeli killed, something like 8 or 9 Palestinians are killed.
Everyone should listen to world renown scholar Noam Chomsky speak on this subject. He is Jewish and spent a great amount of time in Israel, being connected to it through friends and family. He also happens to be the most outspoken critic of Israeli expansion in Palestine. He himself refers to many Israeli practices as barbarous and that Israel has reduced Palestine to an open air prison.
I ask you, if one of the smartest people in the world, Noam Chomsky, who is also Jewish and loves Israel is totally against its foreign policy and stance on Palestine, why is anyone in the West for it? Oh, it's because scholars like Chomsky are shunned from mainstream media because their goal of peace is not the goal of the corporate taskmasters.
Meh, media bias, even to a large degree, is still nowhere near the blanket statement of "jewish media has its control over the American population".
I don't agree with Israel not retaliating, although I definitely am against the settlements. Chucking rockets into Israel is only going to legitimize their "retaliation", so I would argue it's far better off not to do it. Something like 8 or 9 Palestinians are killed for every Israeli death is because Hamas hides its munitions and soldiers in densely populated areas. This creates a "be damned if do and damned if don't" situation, so Israel exercises its right to retaliate. Tragic, but not entirely their fault.
Your statement insinuating that if "one of the smartest people in the world" is against foreign policy on Palestine, then the western hemisphere should follow suit is riddled with flaws. I'm pretty sure there are people as smart as Chomsky on the other side, that are for even more extreme policies. Smartness does not validate his opinions. Perhaps his morality does, but definitely not his intellect.
I love your point of Hamas hiding in densely populated areas and using schools etc. This is a hilarious representation of mainsteam media. Have you seen how tiny Gaza is? There is nowhere within it that isn't densely populated. I also don't understand the argument that it would be better for the Palestinians not to fire rockets. They do it, because it's all they can do. People with Western attitudes think it would be better for them to stop, but I ask, then what happens? If they didn't do this you would never even hear about Palestine, and the Israeli expansions would continue until one day there is only Israel. I don't agree with suicide bombing or targeting of civilians, but what other discourse do these people have when even the US, the supposed beacon of freedom and liberty, are against you.
On Chomsky, I must say, there are no people on the other side as smart as him. The man is a walking encyclopedia, which is mainly why I referred to his superior intelligence, rather than his superior morality. Chomsky makes mince meat out of anyone he debates.
One of the smartest people on "the other side," is Alan Dershowitz, frankfurter professor at Harvard. Watch this debate.
Note how Chomsky uses nothing but facts, and one of the smartest people on "the other side" does nothing but sink to ad hominems almost immediately.
The fact is, when debating this subject, the Israelis can't use facts, because all the facts are against them, so they use clever tactics to sway public opinion and discredit those speaking the truth.
Oh, a hilarious representation? Hahaha. No. Fact is, Hamas can reduce the cost of their own people's lives. And they choose not to do so to incite negative propaganda against Israel. You can't argue against hiding in hospitals and kindergartens.
They do it, because it's all they can do? What is this I don't even. Are you truly believing that terrorism is ALL that's left for Palestinians? Then I say they are better off being absorbed into Israel.
Smartness does not equate to being a walking encyclopedia, nor being able to dish out facts. It, sadly, is about being smart enough to "use clever tactics to sway public opinion and discredit those speaking the truth".
I like your point of view. Don't fight for freedom, don't fight against tyranny, if a superior force knocks down your home, suck it up and roll with the punches. I could almost invoke Godwin's law right now...
Terrorism. What a silly word, thrown around by people who lack understanding. Terrorism is a joke, and I find it offensive in this context. George W. loves it though.
Don't watch the video I posted then. Continue on in your arrogance asserting that he is not a walking encyclopedia, even though he is one of the most cited resources in academia. Intelligence has nothing to do with being able to discredit others and sway public opinion. If that were true the smartest people on earth are all Priests... or middle school bullies.
On December 01 2012 03:21 oneofthem wrote: that this crisis is happening on israel's doorsteps does in itself put responsibility on israel to do something, particularly when active measures are contributing to the ongoing situation.
This would be why Israel gives a colossal amount of humanitarian aid to Palestine?
Which doesn't correspond even to a small bit to what they make out of the land that legally belongs to the Palestinians? They don't let the Palestinians trade or export their goods, they don't give them access to what used to be their cultivable land, they don't let them fish more than 10 km from the cost. They keep them alive, barely, but talking about humanitarian aid is just too much, in my opinion.
I think you mean legally belonged to the British when they inherited the rights of the Turks. Either way, dwelling on the injustices of 60 years ago does absolutely nothing to help the Palestinians alive today.
The problem with discussing "rights to an area" is that it becomes weird because of the countries switching it around. Let's say you're living in Italy. So you're an italian living in your country. Then somehow Russia comes and takes over Italy. So you're russian. Then Russia gives the country to a people without a country, let's say the natives in northern scandinavia. Problem is, they don't want you in "their" country and kicks you out. Now someone could make the claim that you have no legal right to the country because you're not a born russian, but it makes no sense.
And you'd be pissed off and you'd have every right to be pissed off. And you'd probably take up arms and fight for your right to live there. But if 60 years later your grandson is upset that he has been denied a life he only imagines because of the injustice done to you then you have to ask yourself what progress you've made in those 60 years. It is simply not realistic for the current generation of Palestinians to ever move back into the land which is now populated and which they never lived on, they need to seek a real solution to the humanitarian crisis rather than creating another generation to suffer because of it.
I agree with this, the problem is that no solution is being offered. It's basically "Well, you and your family haven't lived here for 60 years, and you're not going to get to live here, so can't you just give up and be satisfied with the extremely shitty conditions we've put you in? Hell, if you stop complaining about the shitty conditions, we might actually make it slightly better for you, over time. Maybe. And you will be damned gracious about it."
EPT
