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On October 28 2011 13:53 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 13:46 omisa wrote:On October 28 2011 13:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 28 2011 13:36 omisa wrote:On October 28 2011 13:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 28 2011 13:33 omisa wrote:
Why on earth would you ever get the law involved over a school fight?
Instead of wasting energy and time blaming the bully/schools/system/etc and feeling sorry for the kid, why not do him a favor and teach him to stand up for himself. The fight was not that bad, at most he will have a bruised ego, but if he cant stand up for himself he is in for a hard life. I don't think you quite understand how life is supposed to work. Is that so? So do you let yourself get pushed around all day? No, I totally judo chop anyone who gets in my way, I always take the law into my own hands, and I can breathe fire. And thank goodness I'm not gay or black or a woman or any other minority, or else people would make fun of me. Well thats cool and all, but seriously, running from your problems wont fix them. You're not supposed to always approach violence with violence. That's exactly why we have cops. The kid got his ass kicked. He didn't want to throw any punches, and he probably would have gotten knocked out anyway. And if this type of thing is allowed (getting suspended for three days is incredibly minor), it's going to happen again and again. How the heck is he going to stand up for himself? Attempt to punch the guy back? He'll still get his ass kicked. As I said before, there's absolutely no reason why society needs to sit and watch this from the sidelines. We're not innocent bystanders here, especially when it's a hate crime. It's not like some stupid high school drama of two guys getting into an argument over a girl. It's blatant bigotry and assault for something that we can help with. Something that the police would be helping with if it were outside of school.
Who said anything about approaching violence with violence? Yeah, he was going to get his ass beat no matter what he did, but when he tried running away he made the situation worse. nobody ever said it was an easy situation to handle, and he might not have to deal with the same kid, but i imagine he will get picked on for a long ass time for being the gay kid who didnt believe in himself, or however it gets justified.
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On October 28 2011 14:02 McKTenor13 wrote:
That is absolutely ridiculous. He needs to serve jail time. Also the fact that no one in the classroom helped to stop it is a crime in itself.
What have you done recently to alleviate the social ills of America?
Imo maybe we could lock you up.
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On October 28 2011 14:00 Half wrote:Show nested quote +
So your problem is with the justice system.
Unfortunately the justice system can't prevent parents from raising bigoted intolerant children, but it can however punish and help rehabilitate those children who act on their hatred through violence.
Do you have facts or evidence that juvy never works? From what I can tell is you just like posting sarcastic comments in all caps. Very constructive to the debate.
My problem isn't with the Justice system, my problem is people who see the justice system as a source of change. The justice system is a form of maintaining order. You can lock him up so you don't see him anymore. Your world fits together now. People like him will continue to exist, in one form or other. Nothing has been changed. Exactly the way you like it. Show nested quote +
I can't believe your argument is "I know that nothing can fix this kid, so let's not really punish him." Maybe the justice system is flawed, but he still has to abide by the law. And those being unjustly persecuted should still be protected.
No my argument is that your pushing responsibility onto a kid, which tremendously simplifies the matter, and doesn't benefit anyone. As I said before and which you have continuously failed to answer, who is the beneficiary besides yourself? The safety of the kid he assaulted could easily be arranged in such a controlled environment like a school without locking him up.
And like I asked earlier which you conveniently didn't answer, what is your divine alternative?
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On October 28 2011 14:02 McKTenor13 wrote:
That is absolutely ridiculous. He needs to serve jail time. Also the fact that no one in the classroom helped to stop it is a crime in itself.
Yeah, I'm really more shocked that nobody in the class did anything. If this happened in any school in my area five people would have been on that bully...
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On October 28 2011 14:06 Tektos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 14:00 Half wrote:
So your problem is with the justice system.
Unfortunately the justice system can't prevent parents from raising bigoted intolerant children, but it can however punish and help rehabilitate those children who act on their hatred through violence.
Do you have facts or evidence that juvy never works? From what I can tell is you just like posting sarcastic comments in all caps. Very constructive to the debate.
My problem isn't with the Justice system, my problem is people who see the justice system as a source of change. The justice system is a form of maintaining order. You can lock him up so you don't see him anymore. Your world fits together now. People like him will continue to exist, in one form or other. Nothing has been changed. Exactly the way you like it.
I can't believe your argument is "I know that nothing can fix this kid, so let's not really punish him." Maybe the justice system is flawed, but he still has to abide by the law. And those being unjustly persecuted should still be protected.
No my argument is that your pushing responsibility onto a kid, which tremendously simplifies the matter, and doesn't benefit anyone. As I said before and which you have continuously failed to answer, who is the beneficiary besides yourself? The safety of the kid he assaulted could easily be arranged in such a controlled environment like a school without locking him up. And like I asked earlier which you conveniently didn't answer, what is your divine alternative?
Something else? If you've already conceded that putting the kid in prison is a zero sum game, we can now get to discussing what that something else can be. Agreed?
On October 28 2011 14:06 E.H Eager wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 14:02 McKTenor13 wrote:
That is absolutely ridiculous. He needs to serve jail time. Also the fact that no one in the classroom helped to stop it is a crime in itself. Yeah, I'm really more shocked that nobody in the class did anything. If this happened in any school in my area five people would have been on that bully...
Out of curiosity, how much do your parents pay on there property tax?
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On October 28 2011 14:08 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 14:06 Tektos wrote:On October 28 2011 14:00 Half wrote:
So your problem is with the justice system.
Unfortunately the justice system can't prevent parents from raising bigoted intolerant children, but it can however punish and help rehabilitate those children who act on their hatred through violence.
Do you have facts or evidence that juvy never works? From what I can tell is you just like posting sarcastic comments in all caps. Very constructive to the debate.
My problem isn't with the Justice system, my problem is people who see the justice system as a source of change. The justice system is a form of maintaining order. You can lock him up so you don't see him anymore. Your world fits together now. People like him will continue to exist, in one form or other. Nothing has been changed. Exactly the way you like it.
I can't believe your argument is "I know that nothing can fix this kid, so let's not really punish him." Maybe the justice system is flawed, but he still has to abide by the law. And those being unjustly persecuted should still be protected.
No my argument is that your pushing responsibility onto a kid, which tremendously simplifies the matter, and doesn't benefit anyone. As I said before and which you have continuously failed to answer, who is the beneficiary besides yourself? The safety of the kid he assaulted could easily be arranged in such a controlled environment like a school without locking him up. And like I asked earlier which you conveniently didn't answer, what is your divine alternative? Something else? If you've already conceded that putting the kid in prison is a zero sum game, we can now get to discussing what that something else can be. Agreed?
I didn't once concede that putting the kid in prison is a zero sum game, read my earlier post I described the beneficiaries of the process and once again you completely ignored it.
I will rephrase my question.
Given that it is YOUR opinion that there is no benefit in this solution, what is your proposed alternative?
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Did you WATCH the video? How can you honestly try to pass this off as a "petty ordeal"?
Yes i did watch the video, how can you actually consider this a major ordeal? Please dont try to impose your moral values on me, its obvious we have a different opinion but nobody got seriously hurt, a few bumps and bruises.
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Can't believe "No punishment" is 3rd highest pole vote. Unbelievable. Hope that kid gets slapped with charges and jail time. Sack of shit.
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On October 28 2011 14:10 Tektos wrote:
I didn't once concede that putting the kid in prison is a zero sum game, read my earlier post I described the beneficiaries of the process and once again you completely ignored it.
As I said, the only possible benefit is removal of the victim from the perpetrator and the can easily be addressed via less drastic means. Anything else?
Given that it is YOUR opinion that there is no benefit in this solution, what is your proposed alternative?
My solution can remain unanswered for now, all we need to do is accept the need for an alternative one if we already agreed that the current process benefits nobody.
If we can accept x is not only inefficient but ineffective, looking for the alternative is the path to pursue, even if one doesn't obviously exist.
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I think before making brash judgements and accusations you need a deeper understanding of what's going on there. And to get that deeper understanding you need to actually know both the kids' story and why they do what they do. They are kids after all, what he did was definitely violent and deserves a punishment, but you need to understand that a school needs to worry about EVERY kid's welfare, and that includes the bully.
A good school will find a suitable punishment, because this behaviour definitely cannot be tolerated and needs to be set an example of (Say, 1 week suspension with probation or something like that, remove any sports priviledges, etc.), but will also try to find why is this guy such a bully. Maybe there are reasons behind it, and something can be worked out with a decent therapy or whatever.
My point is, punishment shouldn't just be handed out for the sake of punishing a specific conduct, it should be handed out with a point, and in the case of kids, a good school should try to go deeper into it. That said, I agree a 3 day suspension with no other consequences is bullcrap for this kind of aggression, it sets a bad example, and this bully will just probably laugh at it with his "oh so cool" buddies.
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On October 28 2011 14:04 omisa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 13:53 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 28 2011 13:46 omisa wrote:On October 28 2011 13:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 28 2011 13:36 omisa wrote:On October 28 2011 13:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 28 2011 13:33 omisa wrote:
Why on earth would you ever get the law involved over a school fight?
Instead of wasting energy and time blaming the bully/schools/system/etc and feeling sorry for the kid, why not do him a favor and teach him to stand up for himself. The fight was not that bad, at most he will have a bruised ego, but if he cant stand up for himself he is in for a hard life. I don't think you quite understand how life is supposed to work. Is that so? So do you let yourself get pushed around all day? No, I totally judo chop anyone who gets in my way, I always take the law into my own hands, and I can breathe fire. And thank goodness I'm not gay or black or a woman or any other minority, or else people would make fun of me. Well thats cool and all, but seriously, running from your problems wont fix them. You're not supposed to always approach violence with violence. That's exactly why we have cops. The kid got his ass kicked. He didn't want to throw any punches, and he probably would have gotten knocked out anyway. And if this type of thing is allowed (getting suspended for three days is incredibly minor), it's going to happen again and again. How the heck is he going to stand up for himself? Attempt to punch the guy back? He'll still get his ass kicked. As I said before, there's absolutely no reason why society needs to sit and watch this from the sidelines. We're not innocent bystanders here, especially when it's a hate crime. It's not like some stupid high school drama of two guys getting into an argument over a girl. It's blatant bigotry and assault for something that we can help with. Something that the police would be helping with if it were outside of school. Who said anything about approaching violence with violence? Yeah, he was going to get his ass beat no matter what he did, but when he tried running away he made the situation worse. nobody ever said it was an easy situation to handle, and he might not have to deal with the same kid, but i imagine he will get picked on for a long ass time for being the gay kid who didnt believe in himself, or however it gets justified.
Apparently you've never been the little kid before, or know of anyone who's been bullied, so I'm just going to assume you can't relate to any of this and conclude that you live in a world where bullies are going to back down if you ask them nicely, one time, to please stop beating the shit out of you, and that you never have to raise a finger.
That place must be lovely, but I don't recommend visiting Earth any time soon.
In reality, his only option was to run away until an authority figure came to stop the bully. His peers weren't doing anything and he couldn't stop the guy. Did you really think he was concerned about not backing down from something? He got attacked viciously, for crying out loud.
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On October 28 2011 14:11 omisa wrote:Show nested quote +Did you WATCH the video? How can you honestly try to pass this off as a "petty ordeal"? Yes i did watch the video, how can you actually consider this a major ordeal? Please dont try to impose your moral values on me, its obvious we have a different opinion but nobody got seriously hurt, a few bumps and bruises.
Because fixing a chipped tooth totally doesn't run over $1,000, ever.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On October 28 2011 14:08 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 14:06 Tektos wrote:On October 28 2011 14:00 Half wrote:
So your problem is with the justice system.
Unfortunately the justice system can't prevent parents from raising bigoted intolerant children, but it can however punish and help rehabilitate those children who act on their hatred through violence.
Do you have facts or evidence that juvy never works? From what I can tell is you just like posting sarcastic comments in all caps. Very constructive to the debate.
My problem isn't with the Justice system, my problem is people who see the justice system as a source of change. The justice system is a form of maintaining order. You can lock him up so you don't see him anymore. Your world fits together now. People like him will continue to exist, in one form or other. Nothing has been changed. Exactly the way you like it.
I can't believe your argument is "I know that nothing can fix this kid, so let's not really punish him." Maybe the justice system is flawed, but he still has to abide by the law. And those being unjustly persecuted should still be protected.
No my argument is that your pushing responsibility onto a kid, which tremendously simplifies the matter, and doesn't benefit anyone. As I said before and which you have continuously failed to answer, who is the beneficiary besides yourself? The safety of the kid he assaulted could easily be arranged in such a controlled environment like a school without locking him up. And like I asked earlier which you conveniently didn't answer, what is your divine alternative? Something else? If you've already conceded that putting the kid in prison is a zero sum game, we can now get to discussing what that something else can be. Agreed? Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 14:06 E.H Eager wrote:On October 28 2011 14:02 McKTenor13 wrote:
That is absolutely ridiculous. He needs to serve jail time. Also the fact that no one in the classroom helped to stop it is a crime in itself. Yeah, I'm really more shocked that nobody in the class did anything. If this happened in any school in my area five people would have been on that bully... Out of curiosity, how much do your parents pay on there property tax?
You have me there, the median income for my hometown is considerably higher than there (granted I do live in ohio now.)
But does income make that much of a difference in levels of homophobia?
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On October 28 2011 14:11 omisa wrote:Show nested quote +Did you WATCH the video? How can you honestly try to pass this off as a "petty ordeal"? Yes i did watch the video, how can you actually consider this a major ordeal? Please dont try to impose your moral values on me, its obvious we have a different opinion but nobody got seriously hurt, a few bumps and bruises.
Kid got a fucking concussion and a broken tooth.
It's just a flesh wound!
+ Show Spoiler +
You totally didn't read the article or watch the video. Not going to bother talking with you anymore. Enjoy your night.
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This is a freaking tragedy that such an act of violence for such a ridiculous reason is only punished with three days' suspension.
Shaking my head at the system, here's to hoping that this is the end of this hater. =/
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On October 28 2011 14:16 E.H Eager wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 14:08 Half wrote:On October 28 2011 14:06 Tektos wrote:On October 28 2011 14:00 Half wrote:
So your problem is with the justice system.
Unfortunately the justice system can't prevent parents from raising bigoted intolerant children, but it can however punish and help rehabilitate those children who act on their hatred through violence.
Do you have facts or evidence that juvy never works? From what I can tell is you just like posting sarcastic comments in all caps. Very constructive to the debate.
My problem isn't with the Justice system, my problem is people who see the justice system as a source of change. The justice system is a form of maintaining order. You can lock him up so you don't see him anymore. Your world fits together now. People like him will continue to exist, in one form or other. Nothing has been changed. Exactly the way you like it.
I can't believe your argument is "I know that nothing can fix this kid, so let's not really punish him." Maybe the justice system is flawed, but he still has to abide by the law. And those being unjustly persecuted should still be protected.
No my argument is that your pushing responsibility onto a kid, which tremendously simplifies the matter, and doesn't benefit anyone. As I said before and which you have continuously failed to answer, who is the beneficiary besides yourself? The safety of the kid he assaulted could easily be arranged in such a controlled environment like a school without locking him up. And like I asked earlier which you conveniently didn't answer, what is your divine alternative? Something else? If you've already conceded that putting the kid in prison is a zero sum game, we can now get to discussing what that something else can be. Agreed? On October 28 2011 14:06 E.H Eager wrote:On October 28 2011 14:02 McKTenor13 wrote:
That is absolutely ridiculous. He needs to serve jail time. Also the fact that no one in the classroom helped to stop it is a crime in itself. Yeah, I'm really more shocked that nobody in the class did anything. If this happened in any school in my area five people would have been on that bully... Out of curiosity, how much do your parents pay on there property tax? You have me there, the median income for my hometown is considerably higher than there (granted I do live in ohio now.) But does income make that much of a difference in levels of homophobia?
Yes, it does. Not just Homophobia, but hate in general. Part of the reason why its so strong in America is because is because our social values redirect our hatred towards other human beings rather then our actual predicament.
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how in the fucking fuck can you know your son is gay at the age of 13 unless you want your child to be gay. hell, just a year ago he probably sounded like any 12 year old kid on the planet so his gay-esque voice couldn't have given it away lol.
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Probably should've gotten expelled (at the least) - 3 day suspension for that is kind of a joke. Why would you even want him back in your school?
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On October 28 2011 14:22 aBstractx wrote:
how in the fucking fuck can you know your son is gay at the age of 13 unless you want your child to be gay. hell, just a year ago he probably sounded like any 12 year old kid on the planet so his gay-esque voice couldn't have given it away lol.
You're right, his parents want their child to be gay. It offers him so many advantages. For instance, making friends at school! Are you serious?
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On October 28 2011 14:20 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 14:16 E.H Eager wrote:On October 28 2011 14:08 Half wrote:On October 28 2011 14:06 Tektos wrote:On October 28 2011 14:00 Half wrote:
So your problem is with the justice system.
Unfortunately the justice system can't prevent parents from raising bigoted intolerant children, but it can however punish and help rehabilitate those children who act on their hatred through violence.
Do you have facts or evidence that juvy never works? From what I can tell is you just like posting sarcastic comments in all caps. Very constructive to the debate.
My problem isn't with the Justice system, my problem is people who see the justice system as a source of change. The justice system is a form of maintaining order. You can lock him up so you don't see him anymore. Your world fits together now. People like him will continue to exist, in one form or other. Nothing has been changed. Exactly the way you like it.
I can't believe your argument is "I know that nothing can fix this kid, so let's not really punish him." Maybe the justice system is flawed, but he still has to abide by the law. And those being unjustly persecuted should still be protected.
No my argument is that your pushing responsibility onto a kid, which tremendously simplifies the matter, and doesn't benefit anyone. As I said before and which you have continuously failed to answer, who is the beneficiary besides yourself? The safety of the kid he assaulted could easily be arranged in such a controlled environment like a school without locking him up. And like I asked earlier which you conveniently didn't answer, what is your divine alternative? Something else? If you've already conceded that putting the kid in prison is a zero sum game, we can now get to discussing what that something else can be. Agreed? On October 28 2011 14:06 E.H Eager wrote:On October 28 2011 14:02 McKTenor13 wrote:
That is absolutely ridiculous. He needs to serve jail time. Also the fact that no one in the classroom helped to stop it is a crime in itself. Yeah, I'm really more shocked that nobody in the class did anything. If this happened in any school in my area five people would have been on that bully... Out of curiosity, how much do your parents pay on there property tax? You have me there, the median income for my hometown is considerably higher than there (granted I do live in ohio now.) But does income make that much of a difference in levels of homophobia? Yes, it does. Not just Homophobia, but hate in general. Part of the reason why its so strong in America is because is because our social values redirect our hatred towards other human beings rather then our actual predicament.
That is something I have never thought about before.
So just to clarify, what would be your suggestion if this event had happened in a upper-middle class area? Would you use the same reasoning against jail, or would it be an acceptable punishment?
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EPT
