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On October 17 2011 21:10 -Duderino- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 21:05 Diks wrote:
Can someone please define what does drug means in this thread ?
EDIT : forget it, I guess everyone has his own definition and this why this discussion will never reach any logical conclusions Lol drug means anything you use to get fucked up. We are not talking about the someone who is sick using drugs prescribed to them, although I'll admit I can't stand those bastards.
quality post :D
On October 17 2011 21:09 Kickboxer wrote:I just have to say I am constantly amazed by the amount of prudishness and conformism I read on TL. Like, most of you guys are probably teenagers or in your early twenties... and you actually despise people for "breaking the law"? Back when I was a young nerd breaking the law was the right thing to do. If kids don't stand up against the establishment who else will? I really hope you guys aren't the voice of your generation or the future looks rather bleak 
been thinking this quite often recently. and tbh i really think todays teens are too busy playing games and texting on facebook to go out and do stupid stuff.
On October 17 2011 21:12 Iyerbeth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 20:59 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On October 17 2011 20:51 PolSC2 wrote:
Is prejudice against sex offenders wrong? oh nice so people that take some happy time with friends using substances you dont know/like = rapists? sure makes muuuch sense buddy They didn't say that it is directly equal to being a rapist, they gave an example of where someone's decision making process which may have nothing to do with how you know them can result in a negatvie opinion of them based purely on a choice they made in private that doesn't effect you. I probably would have chosen a more minor crime to get the point across but it does directly answer the question of prejudice. To answer the thread though, if you want to take it as technical as it can go, it is prejudice against an action but not a person, but I voted no as prejudice in my opinion tends to reffer to people and not things - I preffer green to red but no one would describe me as prejudiced against red. To continue, it's not prejudice as at is nothing about the person themself that would result in me having a worse opinion of them, but rather something they choose to do and at any point could choose not to do - and it is a choice which has real noticable behavioural and cognitive changes. I would say it is like being accused of being prejudiced of someone who may occasionally scream in your face if you catch them at the wrong moment, rather something about a person that annoys you than a prejudice towards that person.
and that changes what when the results are the same? if i say i hate and want to avoid evryone that masturbates i still judge the person based on nothing.
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On October 17 2011 11:32 VPCursed wrote:
I wouldn't want to be around someone who felt uncomfortable with others who used recreational drugs.
Not because I find their prejudice misguided but because id find them to be a tad moronic.
Also, there is a difference between drug user and drug abuser.
This is how I feel. There's a difference between a hardcore crackhead and someone who smokes weed on the weekends, and I can't see any logical reason to feel prejudiced towards the latter.
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I was brought up to respect the law and law enforcement. Keyword respect, not blindly follow. Just because I respect a law doesn't mean I agree with it. There is a time and place to "oppose" certain laws. If you're not smart about "opposing" certain laws, you can end up in jail.
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On October 17 2011 20:41 Snusdosa wrote:Show nested quote +...I hardly think "not smoking" and "not buying irresponsibly farmed meat" is grounds for sainthood. I'm not perfect by any means, but I try to avoid things I know will cause negative consequences wherever reasonably possible and it's easy to avoid. Simple. Not buying drugs, and therefore not directly funding a string of drug dealers, is an easy thing to avoid doing. The thing is, where else would i purchase marijuana if not from a dealer? If marijuana was legal and i could purchase it from the state i would never buy from a dealer again. But it isn't, since its illegal im FORCED to go to these criminals to buy my weed. Now you might say, i know i fund drug dealers, why smoke at all? Well thats where my argument comes in, if i were to refrain from doing anything that causes negative consequences honestly i would have to back up on a LOT of things.No it doesn't, but it does render the argument that funding drug dealers make pot bad rather weak considering buying clothes is hardly looked down upon the same way people look down on weed. But most clothing companies are in some way involved in slavery. Show nested quote +This feels like a cop-out tbh. Why not just try to avoid bad things? Would it hurt you or cause you any inconvenience to stop giving a string of drug dealers money? Well i just dont think that reason is enough to stop me from occasionally smoking some weed. Also, the guy i purchase from grows his weed at home, its not from the cartels of Mexico or from criminal smugglers. Since going to for example to Thailand on vacation has become such a common and popular thing in especially Europe an enourmous tourism market has developed. This is really good for the economy but a lot of the people who work in the business are working for less than minimum wage. Its not slavery, but in europe their working conditions would be illegal. Also the pollution caused by a plane travelling from Europe to Thailand is equal to the pollution one average family car causes during one year. Pardon my english.
Yes, I will say to you, why smoke at all if you know full well that you are funding criminals? And you said that you need to back up on stuff like buying new clothes and not taking airplanes? Clothes are a necessity of life. Travel by air is a necessity for people who do business or work overseas. They are necessary evils, from what you describe them.
But you smoking weed or not is totally not a necessity. And you chose to smoke weed. And you said you are forced to help criminals because the state made weed illegal (ie, not your fault, its the law's fault).
And I noticed that you said you buy your weed from your friend who grows his own weed from home. No ties to criminal elements. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I have no problem with that. I just don't agree with the concept that buying drugs = flying in aeroplanes to SEA countries = buying clothes = equal amounts of sin. No, buying and using drugs is disproportionately more sinful compared to the other two, and can be totally avoided if you choose to.
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It depends on what drug is used. I certainly have prejudice against harddrug users, but not against marijuana.
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Interesting factoid: In Australia, heroin was legally prescribed to obstetric patients during labor to anticipate and relieve the extreme pain associated with contractions. The practice was abolished in the 1970's not because the drug was unsafe, (it was actually the most effective drug for this purpose when looking at the therapeutic effect vs safety to mother and baby) but because hospitals were sick of having drug addicts break in to steal the supplies.
I personally have no issue with legalisation of even dangerous and highly addictive drugs to be administered to select patients with proven drug addictions as part of a program to rehabilitate them. At least then it would occur in a controlled environment where the dose of active drug is known, significantly reducing the risk of harmful side-effects.
The dangers of injecting non-medical grade drugs cooked with impurities that precipitate in veins and cause all manner of vascular disease is one of the reasons that illicit drug use earned it's negative stigma. Just look at the 'croc' crap being cooked and sold to poor addicts in Russia, their flesh is literally falling off.
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been thinking this quite often recently. and tbh i really think todays teens are too busy playing games and texting on facebook to go out and do stupid stuff.
Kids are so sheltered these days its ridiculous...they'll really miss out on a lot of experience.
About the topic...honestly I've seen a lot people use abuse drugs and I don't think it had a real effect on them. Sure it had negative effect on some people, but those people definitely weren't disciplined or mature or smart, and probably would of end up in some trouble regardless if they did drugs or not. Some people are just like that.
On the other hand, I know plenty of people including myself who use those 'harmless' drugs, aka weed, mush, ect, (also I don't want to argue about the health consequences...it's not healthy but it's not nearly as bad as many other things like drinking so i personally don't care.) who lead perfectly normal lives. A lot of people like to relax by getting drunk or partying or something...I just enjoy smoking a bit of weed with a couple buddies, playing some video games, listen to awesome music, and relax. Partying is fun once in a while but the latter just fits my personally much better. I think anyone would have a negative opinion of me just because of this has his eyes completely closed and is just jealous in the end.
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Blind prejudice against drug users is bad because there are different levels of drug users and use.
Many of my friends use drugs or have a past history. It genuinely does not bother me. Almost all cases are simply them smoking weed with an occasional person that's done cocaine. Then a smaller group, like me, that's done heavy psychedelics and some relaxers like lsd, dmt, opium and others.
I don't know how pharmacy pills are or how prevalent they are since I'm too old and missed that boat.
I have a stronger negative opinion about people who would not want to associate with me because of my past drug history. Damn it. Some people NEED to be smoking weed because they are so fucking up tight and high strung and don't know how to calm the fuck down.
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For it me is just a matter of moderation. I would be predjudice against people who take too many recreational drugs (including alcohol). As long as your not overdoing it, i wouldn't have a problem with it unless you were taking really extreme drugs such as crocodile.
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Do i have prejudice against drug users ?
If you answer this question with yes, youre doing it wrong. Completly wrong.
People use all kinds of drugs since thousands of years. Drugs exist as long as mankind.
Would i advise anyone to take drugs ? No. Thats a whole different story.
But wheres the problem with someone smoking weed or taking cocaine ?
@ all those 68%: You dont drink ? Never ever ?
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On October 17 2011 21:13 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 21:12 Iyerbeth wrote:On October 17 2011 20:59 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On October 17 2011 20:51 PolSC2 wrote:
Is prejudice against sex offenders wrong? oh nice so people that take some happy time with friends using substances you dont know/like = rapists? sure makes muuuch sense buddy They didn't say that it is directly equal to being a rapist, they gave an example of where someone's decision making process which may have nothing to do with how you know them can result in a negatvie opinion of them based purely on a choice they made in private that doesn't effect you. I probably would have chosen a more minor crime to get the point across but it does directly answer the question of prejudice. To answer the thread though, if you want to take it as technical as it can go, it is prejudice against an action but not a person, but I voted no as prejudice in my opinion tends to reffer to people and not things - I preffer green to red but no one would describe me as prejudiced against red. To continue, it's not prejudice as at is nothing about the person themself that would result in me having a worse opinion of them, but rather something they choose to do and at any point could choose not to do - and it is a choice which has real noticable behavioural and cognitive changes. I would say it is like being accused of being prejudiced of someone who may occasionally scream in your face if you catch them at the wrong moment, rather something about a person that annoys you than a prejudice towards that person. and that changes what when the results are the same? if i say i hate and want to avoid evryone that masturbates i still judge the person based on nothing.
But that's exactly my point, that's still not prejudice as typed. To answer your point about the results being the same though, it comes down to likelihood of harming you or others in some way.
Using the original example of sex offenders (+ Show Spoiler [reason for example] +sorry it's just the one we're discussing, I'm not suggesting the two are in any way equal and if this continues I'll make an effort to use a different example, but I'm literally just typing this before I go shopping before the town center fills with kids
With drug use it's obviously far less simple, but in this case I'd argue that it's not prejudice to dislike drug use and to have a lower opinion of people because it isn't some aspect to a person it's how they choose to live their life and it can in minor ways lead to 'harm' (or more likely discomfort in the case of minor drug use) to others. Specifically important is that it isn't part of a person in any way and therefore I'd argue that in this case you could describe it as being prejudiced against an action and the group, rather than a person or people in the group. That though goes back to my original post in that I would say that actions or group labels are not something someone can be prejudiced against, as those actions are not pre-judged and there is nothing in that which pre-judges a person.
If someone chooses to jump in front of a bus, I'm likely to have judged the action (without prejudice) and have made no evaluation or judging of the person flying towards it, my attention would be focussed on the action and preventing anything more harmful coming of it. Yay a less inflamatory example!)
I realise you're active in this thread at the moment so I appologise that I won't be able to reply as fast as this post this time as I'm going to be out for a few hours so if you do respond to this post Ill reply if necessary later.
Edit:
On October 17 2011 21:36 creepcolony wrote:
@ all those 68%: You dont drink ? Never ever ?
I can't speak for the others, but I don't but I'm not sure that should make my opinion any more or less valid as we're talking about prejudice towards drug users and defining exactly which drug users one may be prejudiced against is an integral part of the discussion.
For me, I'm equally opposed to drinking as I am to illegal drugs, but I realise people could make an arguement for them being different.
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Rendering yourself unable to function hurts yourself, your country, the world.
Also the need for substances is pitiful and a sign of weakness. Saying you do drugs is like saying you have issues that you simply can't cope with and need to resort to a delusional state. That crosses the line of what's called "prejudice".
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Most of us automatically form an a negative stereotype against those who take part in illegal or taboo activities (assuming you are brought up in an environment where you are taught these are bad). This opinion changes depending on what kind of environment you are brought up in. For example if you are brought up in a country where drinking is seen as a fun activity, then you may change your opinion about those who drink. Or if you are brought up in an environment where it is publicized that smoking is harmful to health, then you may maintain a negative view towards smoking.
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double post... sorry 
On October 17 2011 21:43 Animism wrote:
Most of us automatically form an a negative stereotype against those who take part in illegal or taboo activities (assuming you are brought up in an environment where you are taught these are bad). This opinion changes depending on what kind of environment you are brought up in. For example if you are brought up in a country where drinking is seen as a fun activity, then you may change your opinion about those who drink. Or if you are brought up in an environment where it is publicized that smoking is harmful to health, then you may maintain a negative view towards smoking.
Surely the environment has a huge impact on our views on things, but you can also educate yourself and realize what is actually good and what is not from a scientific and/or social scientific point of view.
Though if you're brought up in a place where you're not taught these "things" are bad, then education isn't really considered cool, is it.. :/
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On October 17 2011 21:12 TheGiftedApe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 20:50 DarQraven wrote:On October 17 2011 20:47 TheGiftedApe wrote:On October 17 2011 20:41 DarQraven wrote:On October 17 2011 20:20 TheGiftedApe wrote:On October 17 2011 20:13 DarQraven wrote:On October 17 2011 20:05 TheGiftedApe wrote:On October 17 2011 19:57 DarQraven wrote:On October 17 2011 19:49 TheGiftedApe wrote:On October 17 2011 19:25 DarQraven wrote:
For me it comes down to not really respecting someone's personality/mind when they feel a need to take mind-alterating substances on a regular basis to be able to enjoy themselves or feel worthwhile.
Now don't come at me with the weak-ass "everything is a mind-alterating substance" BS; sugar, caffeine and vitamins aren't even remotely close to the effects of alcohol, thc and other drugs.
Let me ask you, what is the concensus about people who drink every single day, and up to a point where they won't be all 'there' anymore? Not just one glass of wine or something, think along the lines of 4+ beers every day (since that's around the same level of fucked-upness that marijuana tends to give you, at least for me)?
You'd label those people alcoholics, don't lie. You'd say they have a drinking problem. You would say they are probably having issues of some sort.
Then why should I be completely fine with people who are stoned every day, most of the day?
You underestimate the power of caffeine and synthesized legal stimulants, Go to the local Market and drink a couple of "High Power Energy Voltage Red bull Crack in a can" drinks and tell me you don't get the shakes. I'm no doctor, but I'd be willing to guess that whatever is making my body uncontrollably shake for up too an hour is just as harmful as any weed or alcohol abuse, Long and short term. And to your other point, Are you blaming alcohol/drugs, as to why people are having issues/problems in their life or is the drug just a crutch/symptom of a bigger emotional issue? Maybe there are some cases, but I find it hard to believe that someone who is abusing a drug, their only problem is the abuse of the drug and that is why they are depressed/have issues. You seem to have misread this. sugar, caffeine and vitamins aren't even remotely close to the effects of alcohol, thc and other drugs Yes, you get shaky when you take massive amounts of caffeine. Do you start babbling nonsense, though? Do you possibly turn all introverted and trip out, or go off on a longwinded tangent about snail decoration? I said those substances aren't even close to typical drugs in their effect, not that they don't have an effect. For hell's sake, you could probably eat a few cups of sugar and you'd have shaky hands and a massive energy boost as well. It wouldn't change your personality, though. Drugs do. They simply have a whole different range of effects on people, effects that change how they behave, respond, think. Even if they respond or think much at all. They can change your perception time and space. They can make you see shit that simply isn't there. The most introverted guy in the world can suddenly go off blabbering on and on to complete strangers. They can make you "see clearly" (read: disable/reduce critical thought). When's the last time you hallucinated because of 5 cups of coffee? I once again disagree, You've never shown up to work or school and been next too the person who has had 1 too many cups of coffee and is Unable to stop talking for 2 hours straight, constantly pestering about something which you would never ordinarily talk about. Although they would usually be silent or "introverted" as you would put it without the coffee. I've never hallucinated from drinking coffee or eating sugar, but I've never hallucinated from drinking alcohol either or smoking weed. Caffiene likewise can "change your perception of time and space" just in the other direction, 1 minute can feel like an hour etc. In freaking massive amounts, yes. Think along the lines of 2-3 jars in the span of an hour, and not that watery stuff Starbucks calls coffee either. 99.99% Of people will not ever drink that much, because they're not drinking coffee with the sole intent of becoming ADHD as fuck. With drugs you do. You only take drugs to become different - that's a philosophical difference if anything, and quite an important one as well. That said, I get the feeling you're just coming up with stuff just to try to make a point. No, I have *never* had my perception of time changed the way it did by using marijuana, by anything else. Not by having fun, studying, caffeine, sugar, alcohol, etc or a combination of any of those. I spent an 'hour' lost in my own room trying to find my bag, which turned out to be exactly 1 minute when I came back to the clock in the kitchen. That shit just doesn't happen with any 'regular' substance, no matter how much you take. Similarly, I have never seen a shy guy suddenly want to hug strangers because he's had sugar. That aside, why are we narrowing this discussion down to marijuana all of a sudden? No, weed won't make you hallucinate. LSD will. Shrooms will. As far as I'm aware, those qualify as drugs as well and their effects blow caffeine or sugar, even in massive amounts, clear out of the water. You said "Now don't come at me with the weak-ass "everything is a mind-alterating substance" BS; sugar, caffeine and vitamins aren't even remotely close to the effects of alcohol, thc and other drugs." And I am trying to relate caffeine to alcohol and marijuana if consumed in equal quantities/abused. You might not abuse caffeine but there are plenty of people who have 3-4 cups of strong coffee before noon. These people are drinking the coffee to "become different" just because caffeine Get's you going, and Alcohol slows you down doesn't mean one is worse than the other. As for the other more hardcore drugs that actually make you hallucinate, lsd ecstacy shrooms etc, there is no relation and i would not try to make one. I said that, and I never contradicted that or abandoned that position. None of those substances are capable of doing to you what more serious drugs can, no matter the amounts involved. Read my previous post again. You still seem to be under the assumption that I'm saying that common chemicals have *no effect*. They do. Just not an effect that's even in the same league as your typical party drug or hallucinogen, or just weed for that matter. It doesn't matter how much coffee you drink or how much it gets you going, you will still be the same person, just more awake, more energy or at least the experience thereof. A high dose of certain vitamins can make you very aware, concentrated. Sugar gives you a bit of a rush, then a low after that. That is not remotely the same as the effects of, let's say, LSD, where you'll be tripping balls for a good hour or 10 and will be barely recognizable, personality wise, to sober people. I don't see how you've presented any arguments to the contrary, or what you're even trying to argue anymore. If what you said was true, how come we don't have people overdosing on caffeine at raves instead of the more costly and illegal drugs? I am not talking about sugar or any of the hard drugs you are talking about. I am ONLY talking about Caffeine, Marijuana, and Alcohol, and their similarities. I've already stated my opinion on the others on page 14. Then your post is pointless since I AM talking about those. When you say "Now don't come at me with the weak-ass "everything is a mind-alterating substance" BS; sugar, caffeine and vitamins aren't even remotely close to the effects of alcohol, thc and other drugs." it sounds like you are saying caffeine is as harmless as vitamins or sugar, and marijuana and alcohol more similar to cocaine or meth than too caffeine. Caffeine is a powerful stimulant and has no nutritional value like sugar or vitamins do. I'll leave it too a miscommunication since we are using text and not spoken word. All I was trying to say is caffeine is a drug, no different than weed or alcohol imo, very different than sugar or vitamins, The main difference is Caffeine comes packaged with fancy advertising and has billions of dollars behind it.
This post proves you didn't read a single word I said, or refuse to understand it.
Fact:
- I never denied caffeine was a drug.
- I never denied it has effects on a person.
- I never said caffeine was as harmless as vitamins, I equated caffeine to vitamins and sugar as in: They are commonplace in everyday products and most often ingested for other purposes than their mental effects.
All of that was you "replying" to an argument I never made.
What I did state was that .. ahh fuck it. Just read my previous posts if you're at all interested.
If you are, instead, determined to think that a caffeine high equates to a weed/harddrug high/trip, both in terms of duration, intensity, gravity and range of the effects and amount it temporarily debilitates or changes a person's functioning, personality and perception, then by all means. Just don't expect me to take your argument very seriously.
That, and I want to know where you're getting your coffee.
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prejudice is pre-judging someone for something. You aren't pre-judging someone if they tell you they do drugs, thats just straight up judgement (and i don't mean it in the bad way, I mean that you are judging their character by what you know, which is how you view all of the people that you know in your life).
drugs are a choice, being black/asian/female is not.
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I don't do anything that I think is going to effect my judgement, but that doesn't necessarily mean I think less of people just based on the fact that they do. Personally I would rather you smoke weed than cigarettes regardless of legalization.
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I have a prejudice against annoying people. I want to avoid talking to them if possible, and it negatively influences my opinion of them. I don't feel comfortable around annoying people, because they annoy me.
See what I did there?
Prejudice, especially of the kind you list (racism, sexism, etc) is based on a list of unavoidable traits that are part of us being human. Prejudice based on behaviors is a whole different ballgame. I've seen a few attempts at supporting illegal drugs in the past, but claiming discrimination is by far the most stupid of them.
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On October 17 2011 21:23 LilClinkin wrote:
Interesting factoid: In Australia, heroin was legally prescribed to obstetric patients during labor to anticipate and relieve the extreme pain associated with contractions. The practice was abolished in the 1970's not because the drug was unsafe, (it was actually the most effective drug for this purpose when looking at the therapeutic effect vs safety to mother and baby) but because hospitals were sick of having drug addicts break in to steal the supplies.
I personally have no issue with legalisation of even dangerous and highly addictive drugs to be administered to select patients with proven drug addictions as part of a program to rehabilitate them. At least then it would occur in a controlled environment where the dose of active drug is known, significantly reducing the risk of harmful side-effects.
The dangers of injecting non-medical grade drugs cooked with impurities that precipitate in veins and cause all manner of vascular disease is one of the reasons that illicit drug use earned it's negative stigma. Just look at the 'croc' crap being cooked and sold to poor addicts in Russia, their flesh is literally falling off.
heh , was waiting for someone to actually point this out.
i think some people in this thread would be mighty surprised if they looked up on certain analogs and their usage in " regular " medicine.
good chance you've been exposed to the " recreational " drugs you so despise already many times via normal medicine.
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EPT
