EPTYeah that's right, biggest partypooper in the world right here.
Prejudice Against Drug Use? - Page 16
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Mecker
Sweden219 Posts
Yeah that's right, biggest partypooper in the world right here. | ||
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TheGiftedApe
United States1243 Posts
On October 17 2011 19:25 DarQraven wrote: For me it comes down to not really respecting someone's personality/mind when they feel a need to take mind-alterating substances on a regular basis to be able to enjoy themselves or feel worthwhile. Now don't come at me with the weak-ass "everything is a mind-alterating substance" BS; sugar, caffeine and vitamins aren't even remotely close to the effects of alcohol, thc and other drugs. Let me ask you, what is the concensus about people who drink every single day, and up to a point where they won't be all 'there' anymore? Not just one glass of wine or something, think along the lines of 4+ beers every day (since that's around the same level of fucked-upness that marijuana tends to give you, at least for me)? You'd label those people alcoholics, don't lie. You'd say they have a drinking problem. You would say they are probably having issues of some sort. Then why should I be completely fine with people who are stoned every day, most of the day? You underestimate the power of caffeine and synthesized legal stimulants, Go to the local Market and drink a couple of "High Power Energy Voltage Red bull Crack in a can" drinks and tell me you don't get the shakes. I'm no doctor, but I'd be willing to guess that whatever is making my body uncontrollably shake for up too an hour is just as harmful as any weed or alcohol abuse, Long and short term. Stimulants of any kinds be it, Speed, Cocaine, or caffeine, produce the same reaction from your brain, and that abuse is what causes long term detrimental side effects. And to your other point, Are you blaming alcohol/drugs, as to why people are having issues/problems in their life or is the drug just a crutch/symptom of a bigger emotional issue? Maybe there are some cases, but I find it hard to believe that someone who is abusing a drug, their only problem is the abuse of the drug and that is why they are depressed/have issues. | ||
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Orcasgt24
Canada3238 Posts
On October 17 2011 17:59 SpaceToaster wrote: I think you're being serious, but I can't tell? I definitely don't think anyone should base their personal perceptions on the law. Remember that laws were made based on the lawmaker(s)' personal perceptions of evidence that existed at the time the law was made. That evidence is sometimes still accurate and sometimes wildly out of date, and the lawmaker may have vastly different beliefs than you do. Your opinion may wind up being the same as that of the law, but I think its selling yourself short to blindly base your personal opinions on the law. I was serious. Their is a really damn good reason why LSD, Meth, Cocain, Herion and all the other drugs are illegal. IMO tobacco and alcohol should also be illegal for the same reasons. | ||
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Immaterial
Canada510 Posts
On October 17 2011 19:42 DarQraven wrote: Probably not, since what they'd have to say at that point is probably not what they are famous or to be respected for. Furthermore, I couldn't take a word they'd say seriously because if they truly are "blazed" then they're most likely to be babbling about irrelevant shit or not making much sense, if my experiences with drugs are anything to go by. If you're talking about weed I can assure you anybody who isn't 13 or smoking for the first time wont be behaving like that. And if they are behaving like that they were probably fools well before they invited THC into their bloodstream. Dock Ellis pitched a no hitter on LSD, and I wouldn't be shocked if Carl Sagan was stoned in every single episode of cosmos ever produced. It depends completely on the person. | ||
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Immaterial
Canada510 Posts
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DarQraven
Netherlands553 Posts
On October 17 2011 19:49 TheGiftedApe wrote: You underestimate the power of caffeine and synthesized legal stimulants, Go to the local Market and drink a couple of "High Power Energy Voltage Red bull Crack in a can" drinks and tell me you don't get the shakes. I'm no doctor, but I'd be willing to guess that whatever is making my body uncontrollably shake for up too an hour is just as harmful as any weed or alcohol abuse, Long and short term. And to your other point, Are you blaming alcohol/drugs, as to why people are having issues/problems in their life or is the drug just a crutch/symptom of a bigger emotional issue? Maybe there are some cases, but I find it hard to believe that someone who is abusing a drug, their only problem is the abuse of the drug and that is why they are depressed/have issues. You seem to have misread this. sugar, caffeine and vitamins aren't even remotely close to the effects of alcohol, thc and other drugs Yes, you get shaky when you take massive amounts of caffeine. Do you start babbling nonsense, though? Do you possibly turn all introverted and trip out, or go off on a longwinded tangent about snail decoration? I said those substances aren't even close to typical drugs in their effect, not that they don't have an effect. For hell's sake, you could probably eat a few cups of sugar and you'd have shaky hands and a massive energy boost as well. It wouldn't change your personality, though. Drugs do. They simply have a whole different range of effects on people, effects that change how they behave, respond, think. Even if they respond or think much at all. They can change your perception of time and space. They can make you see shit that simply isn't there. The most introverted guy in the world can suddenly go off blabbering on and on to complete strangers like he's known them for years. They can make you "see clearly" (read: disable/reduce critical thought) and come up with complete BS. Some party drugs can make you stay up hours on end, something that even massive amounts of caffeine won't do. When's the last time you hallucinated because of 5 cups of coffee? -- As for the issues thing, that is simply how society thinks about drunkards. You see a guy who's drunk as hell most of the time and you either assume he's a homeless guy or has some kind of issue that he's trying to drink away. Substance abuse certainly *can* lead to issues, but that wasn't my point. It's the other way around. If most anyone here will agree that a guy who's drunk most of the week is doing something wrong, then why should it be accepted to be stoned most of the week? | ||
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CutieBK
Sweden227 Posts
What I consider drug abuse and what someone else does are completely distinct, relying mostly on anecdotal proof and not on any structured or systematic analysis. Don't be a dick and tell people who smoke pot they are doing something wrong, unless you really know them well enough to have earned the right to say that. We are all entitled to our oppinions and views, but going up to someone and saying that "hey, your life choices are wrong because <insert irrelevant anecdote about someone/something else>" is just not ok in my book. | ||
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Snusdosa
Sweden112 Posts
I don't buy clothes from anywhere I know uses sweatshops, and I don't really buy that many to begin with. I don't smoke tobacco, and I buy meat farmed from local sources. It might be more expensive, sure, but I have plenty of money saved because I don't waste it on cigarettes.... Ok, we've established that you are a role model for people in general. But can you honestly say that you're pure as a saint? I'll bet on that just a few minutes of soul searching should reveal to you that some of the things you do aren't innocent. Then again, the point wasn't to point out to you that you are doing bad things, it was to point out that purchasing 5 grams of marijuana from someone isn't worse than going on vacation to southeast Asia or purchasing products manufactured by underpayed workers in poor countries. When the entire world has cleaned up their act, then we could use your argument about funding drug dealers against drug users, but right now that is nothing compared to what regular, lawrespecting citizens are responsible off. | ||
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Snusdosa
Sweden112 Posts
I was serious. Their is a really damn good reason why LSD, Meth, Cocain, Herion and all the other drugs are illegal. IMO tobacco and alcohol should also be illegal for the same reasons. Now its on you to explain these reasons, explain why the reasons why each of illegal drugs are legit while we sit back and listen. Go on. | ||
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TheGiftedApe
United States1243 Posts
On October 17 2011 19:57 DarQraven wrote: You seem to have misread this. Yes, you get shaky when you take massive amounts of caffeine. Do you start babbling nonsense, though? Do you possibly turn all introverted and trip out, or go off on a longwinded tangent about snail decoration? I said those substances aren't even close to typical drugs in their effect, not that they don't have an effect. For hell's sake, you could probably eat a few cups of sugar and you'd have shaky hands and a massive energy boost as well. It wouldn't change your personality, though. Drugs do. They simply have a whole different range of effects on people, effects that change how they behave, respond, think. Even if they respond or think much at all. They can change your perception time and space. They can make you see shit that simply isn't there. The most introverted guy in the world can suddenly go off blabbering on and on to complete strangers. They can make you "see clearly" (read: disable/reduce critical thought). When's the last time you hallucinated because of 5 cups of coffee? I once again disagree, You've never shown up to work or school and been next too the person who has had 1 too many cups of coffee and is Unable to stop talking for 2 hours straight, constantly pestering about something which you would never ordinarily talk about. Although they would usually be silent or "introverted" as you would put it without the coffee. I've never hallucinated from drinking coffee or eating sugar, but I've never hallucinated from drinking alcohol either or smoking weed. Caffiene likewise can "change your perception of time and space" just in the other direction, 1 minute can feel like an hour etc. edit: Do I think alcohol is more dangerous than caffeine? yes, short term definitely, Have I drank so much that I blacked out and regretted it in my life? yes, I'm sure if you could stomach it or were motivated too you could drink coffee until you had a heart attack though. I'm just trying to say caffeine specifically is a very dangerous and addictive drug. As goes for cigarettes and alcohol, just cause it's legal doesn't mean its any better. | ||
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DarQraven
Netherlands553 Posts
On October 17 2011 20:05 TheGiftedApe wrote: I once again disagree, You've never shown up to work or school and been next too the person who has had 1 too many cups of coffee and is Unable to stop talking for 2 hours straight, constantly pestering about something which you would never ordinarily talk about. Although they would usually be silent or "introverted" as you would put it without the coffee. I've never hallucinated from drinking coffee or eating sugar, but I've never hallucinated from drinking alcohol either or smoking weed. Caffiene likewise can "change your perception of time and space" just in the other direction, 1 minute can feel like an hour etc. In freaking massive amounts, yes. Think along the lines of 2-3 jars in the span of an hour, and not that watery stuff Starbucks calls coffee either. 99.99% Of people will not ever drink that much, because they're not drinking coffee with the sole intent of becoming ADHD as fuck. With drugs you do. You only take drugs to become different - that's a philosophical difference if anything, and quite an important one as well. Even then, I've never had someone's personality traits seen changed by caffeine. They will get more active, sure. They'll talk faster. Will they suddenly turn into a different person? In my experience (as a university student where many people I know are practically on intravenous coffee drips during peak weeks), no. Not even close. That said, I get the feeling you're just coming up with stuff just to try to make a point. No, I have *never* had my perception of time changed the way it did by using marijuana, by anything else. Not by having fun, studying, caffeine, sugar, alcohol, etc or a combination of any of those. I spent an 'hour' lost in my own room trying to find my bag, which turned out to be exactly 1 minute when I came back to the clock in the kitchen. That shit just doesn't happen with any 'regular' substance, no matter how much you take. Similarly, I have never seen a shy guy suddenly want to hug strangers because he's had sugar. That aside, why are we narrowing this discussion down to marijuana all of a sudden? No, weed won't make you hallucinate. LSD will. Shrooms will. As far as I'm aware, those qualify as drugs as well and their effects blow caffeine or sugar, even in massive amounts, clear out of the water. | ||
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rubio91
Italy111 Posts
However there are 2 things i would like to point out which are usually ignored: 1) Drug users of any type economically support mafia and other criminal organization which hold the monopoly of drug market, exploiting poor people in third/second world country. 2) Even if someone become addicted, he had the possibility to chose to not use drugs before, and chose to use them. Everybody is responsible of their choices. | ||
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TheGiftedApe
United States1243 Posts
On October 17 2011 20:13 DarQraven wrote: In freaking massive amounts, yes. Think along the lines of 2-3 jars in the span of an hour, and not that watery stuff Starbucks calls coffee either. 99.99% Of people will not ever drink that much, because they're not drinking coffee with the sole intent of becoming ADHD as fuck. With drugs you do. You only take drugs to become different - that's a philosophical difference if anything, and quite an important one as well. That said, I get the feeling you're just coming up with stuff just to try to make a point. No, I have *never* had my perception of time changed the way it did by using marijuana, by anything else. Not by having fun, studying, caffeine, sugar, alcohol, etc or a combination of any of those. I spent an 'hour' lost in my own room trying to find my bag, which turned out to be exactly 1 minute when I came back to the clock in the kitchen. That shit just doesn't happen with any 'regular' substance, no matter how much you take. Similarly, I have never seen a shy guy suddenly want to hug strangers because he's had sugar. That aside, why are we narrowing this discussion down to marijuana all of a sudden? No, weed won't make you hallucinate. LSD will. Shrooms will. As far as I'm aware, those qualify as drugs as well and their effects blow caffeine or sugar, even in massive amounts, clear out of the water. You said "Now don't come at me with the weak-ass "everything is a mind-alterating substance" BS; sugar, caffeine and vitamins aren't even remotely close to the effects of alcohol, thc and other drugs." And I am trying to relate caffeine to alcohol and marijuana if consumed in equal quantities/abused. You might not abuse caffeine but there are plenty of people who have 3-4 cups of strong coffee before noon. These people are drinking the coffee to "become different" just because caffeine Get's you going, and Alcohol slows you down doesn't mean one is worse than the other. These people become dependent on Coffee to get going and eventually have to drink more and more and more over time, to "get their fix". As for the other more hardcore drugs that actually make you hallucinate, lsd ecstacy shrooms etc, there is no relation and i would not try to make one. | ||
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Hairy
United Kingdom1169 Posts
On October 17 2011 19:59 Snusdosa wrote: Ok, we've established that you are a role model for people in general. But can you honestly say that you're pure as a saint? I'll bet on that just a few minutes of soul searching should reveal to you that some of the things you do aren't innocent. ...I hardly think "not smoking" and "not buying irresponsibly farmed meat" is grounds for sainthood. I'm not perfect by any means, but I try to avoid things I know will cause negative consequences wherever reasonably possible and it's easy to avoid. Simple. Not buying drugs, and therefore not directly funding a string of drug dealers, is an easy thing to avoid doing. When the entire world has cleaned up their act, then we could use your argument about funding drug dealers against drug users, but right now that is nothing compared to what regular, lawrespecting citizens are responsible off. "Other people are bad/worse, so that makes what I'm doing oK!" ? This feels like a cop-out tbh. Why not just try to avoid bad things? Would it hurt you or cause you any inconvenience to stop giving a string of drug dealers money? btw.... why is going on vacation to SE Asia bad? /confused | ||
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Nizaris
Belgium2230 Posts
On October 17 2011 19:49 Orcasgt24 wrote: I was serious. Their is a really damn good reason why LSD, Meth, Cocain, Herion and all the other drugs are illegal. IMO tobacco and alcohol should also be illegal for the same reasons. Don't even try, you have no idea what you are talking about. Putting LSD together with Meth, Cocaine and Heroin ... what a joke. Try listing those reasons. | ||
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Setev
Malaysia390 Posts
On October 17 2011 18:59 3Form wrote: Hilarious considering that alcohol is more harmful and more addictive than plenty of those "more illegal than marijuana" drugs. There are some drugs I'll never touch, opiates are an obvious one, but I urge the non-users to experience in moderation before judging quite so harshly. Like anything, moderation is the key. People die from excessive WoW-ing, so it's not unreasonable to expect that disrespecting a substance can cause serious harm. MDMA is worth experiencing once in your life. Still won't try MDMA, despite what certain authorities claiming the therapeutic benefits... | ||
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Snusdosa
Sweden112 Posts
...I hardly think "not smoking" and "not buying irresponsibly farmed meat" is grounds for sainthood. I'm not perfect by any means, but I try to avoid things I know will cause negative consequences wherever reasonably possible and it's easy to avoid. Simple. Not buying drugs, and therefore not directly funding a string of drug dealers, is an easy thing to avoid doing. The thing is, where else would i purchase marijuana if not from a dealer? If marijuana was legal and i could purchase it from the state i would never buy from a dealer again. But it isn't, since its illegal im FORCED to go to these criminals to buy my weed. Now you might say, i know i fund drug dealers, why smoke at all? Well thats where my argument comes in, if i were to refrain from doing anything that causes negative consequences honestly i would have to back up on a LOT of things. "Other people are bad/worse, so that makes what I'm doing oK!" ? No it doesn't, but it does render the argument that funding drug dealers make pot bad rather weak considering buying clothes is hardly looked down upon the same way people look down on weed. But most clothing companies are in some way involved in slavery. This feels like a cop-out tbh. Why not just try to avoid bad things? Would it hurt you or cause you any inconvenience to stop giving a string of drug dealers money? Well i just dont think that reason is enough to stop me from occasionally smoking some weed. Also, the guy i purchase from grows his weed at home, its not from the cartels of Mexico or from criminal smugglers. btw.... why is going on vacation to SE Asia bad? /confused Since going to for example to Thailand on vacation has become such a common and popular thing in especially Europe an enourmous tourism market has developed. This is really good for the economy but a lot of the people who work in the business are working for less than minimum wage. Its not slavery, but in europe their working conditions would be illegal. Also the pollution caused by a plane travelling from Europe to Thailand is equal to the pollution one average family car causes during one year. Pardon my english. | ||
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DarQraven
Netherlands553 Posts
On October 17 2011 20:20 TheGiftedApe wrote: You said "Now don't come at me with the weak-ass "everything is a mind-alterating substance" BS; sugar, caffeine and vitamins aren't even remotely close to the effects of alcohol, thc and other drugs." And I am trying to relate caffeine to alcohol and marijuana if consumed in equal quantities/abused. You might not abuse caffeine but there are plenty of people who have 3-4 cups of strong coffee before noon. These people are drinking the coffee to "become different" just because caffeine Get's you going, and Alcohol slows you down doesn't mean one is worse than the other. As for the other more hardcore drugs that actually make you hallucinate, lsd ecstacy shrooms etc, there is no relation and i would not try to make one. I said that, and I never contradicted that or abandoned that position. None of those substances are capable of doing to you what more serious drugs can, no matter the amounts involved. Read my previous post again. You still seem to be under the assumption that I'm saying that common chemicals have *no effect*. They do. Just not an effect that's even in the same league as your typical party drug or hallucinogen, or just weed for that matter. It doesn't matter how much coffee you drink or how much it gets you going, you will still be the same person, just more awake, more energy or at least the experience thereof. A high dose of certain vitamins can make you very aware, concentrated. Sugar gives you a bit of a rush, then a low after that. That is not remotely the same as the effects of, let's say, LSD, where you'll be tripping balls for a good hour or 10 and will be barely recognizable, personality wise, to sober people. I don't see how you've presented any arguments to the contrary, or what you're even trying to argue anymore. If what you said was true, how come we don't have people overdosing on caffeine at raves instead of the more costly and illegal drugs? | ||
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Kickboxer
Slovenia1308 Posts
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sephius
United Kingdom200 Posts
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