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WinterNightz
United States111 Posts
One thing I honestly wonder and do not know: Under the 9-9-9 plan, or under the current system, does a stock market trade count as a retail transaction? That is, would it be subject to a sales tax, either federal or state? I personally would hope that it is. It would take a certain amount of volatility out of the markets (the kind of volatility that only high-frequency trading algorithms can take advantage of), and make the markets much less subject to speculation. | ||
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dookudooku
255 Posts
On October 16 2011 23:48 BronzeKnee wrote: You'll wonder how that can be, when this will slash even the lowest income tax rates, but it is pretty simple. Many Americans depend heavily on deductions and his plan eliminates all exemptions and deductions. Overall I think the 9-9-9 plan is good, but the problem is that it's too different from what we currently have and it would be very disruptive. It's true that many Americans depend heavily on deductions, but at the same time, depending on deductions is bad in the first place! You said you'd pay about $6000 more in taxes under the 9-9-9 plan, but do you realize that if deductions did not exist if the first place, you'd probably save $10000 a year elsewhere? This doesn't mean you'll save with a 9-9-9; it's too late and you'd be already screwed. My point is, you paid at a huge premium on your house because the deduction existed in the first place, yet the deduction you get doesn't actually make up for that. If you bought a house for $400k, then you paid at least $100k more just because the deduction existed in the first place. The 9-9-9 plan is an attempt to get tax rates to what they SHOULD be, but it's going to be painful for some, especially homeowners with your level of income. Actually many homeowners would get double-screwed because the price of their home would fall substantially without the deductions, so a more transitional plan would be better. | ||
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Coraz
United States252 Posts
reduce the size of Big Govt, get rid of the redundant ATF, the redundant FDA, end the drug war, end the CIA rampaging across the world murdering and wasting our money, end THE FED, bring back manufacturing and agriculture to our country. I think it's too late to avoid the total meltdown, though. It's all being done by design and we're decades (if not a century) into it. The only thing that will save us is divine intervention at this point. (Yes i'm talkin bout Jeeesus) OP: Romney and barry are insider occultists so I don't see how their tax plans (which probably have tons of loopholes and irrelevant draconian laws tacked on on page 1,200) could possibly do anything to help us, the useless eaters. I haven't read their tax plans so I can't say anything specific. | ||
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FIStarcraft
United States154 Posts
On October 17 2011 07:01 dookudooku wrote: Overall I think the 9-9-9 plan is good, but the problem is that it's too different from what we currently have and it would be very disruptive. It's true that many Americans depend heavily on deductions, but at the same time, depending on deductions is bad in the first place! You said you'd pay about $6000 more in taxes under the 9-9-9 plan, but do you realize that if deductions did not exist if the first place, you'd probably save $10000 a year elsewhere? This doesn't mean you'll save $10000 with a 9-9-9; it's too late and you'd be already screwed. My point is, you paid at least a 35% premium on your house because the deduction existed in the first place, yet the deduction you get doesn't actually make up for that 35%. The 9-9-9 plan is an attempt to get tax rates to what they SHOULD be, but it's going to be painful for some, especially homeowners with your level of income. Actually many homeowners would get double-screwed because the price of their home would fall substantially without the deductions, so a more transitional plan would be better. Explain. | ||
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dookudooku
255 Posts
I edited my post to be clear. The numbers may vary, but the fact is the mortgage interest + property tax deduction massively inflates the price of a house. It also favors the wealthy much more than you think -- they buy up property and rent it out. It's very reasonable to say that if you average $2000 on housing a month, at least $800 of that is caused by the existence of the deduction. And you won't get $800 back from the deduction. In other words, the deduction is a scam that's strongly supported by the real estate industry as a means to drive up housing prices. | ||
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xShade
Canada52 Posts
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WinterNightz
United States111 Posts
On October 17 2011 07:01 dookudooku wrote: The 9-9-9 plan is an attempt to get tax rates to what they SHOULD be, but it's going to be painful for some, especially homeowners with your level of income. Actually many homeowners would get double-screwed because the price of their home would fall substantially without the deductions, so a more transitional plan would be better. This is one of the points that I think people forget. There's no reason why we have to try to transition to an entirely new tax code over a short period of time. Especially with the amount of human capital invested in managing taxes with the IRS and tax accountants and lawyers, it's going to take time for those people to find other jobs. but still, there's no reason we can't say: For the next 9 years, every deduction and every federal tax that exists currently will decrease linearly from wherever it is now, to zero. While this is happening, the new federal corporate/sales/income taxes will increase 1% each year. No honest person is saying we're going to transition instantaneously as fast as a bill can get through congress. There are tons of people, like it or not, whose entire livelihood is based upon the federal government having an impenetrable 60,000 page tax code. If we want those people to transition to jobs that are going to actually produce something helpful for America as a society and an economy, it's going to take time. But if we follow a smooth linear transition like I mentioned, it can happen gradually and relatively painlessly. And in the end, we'll have less people pushing paper around, and more people in jobs that actually help the economy. (and y'know, I think most people would be happy if it turned into a 9-9-9-9 plan, with the 4th 9 being capital gains. I really honestly hope someone brings that up in a debate eventually.) | ||
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Navillus
United States1188 Posts
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seraz
United States27 Posts
poor people would have to pay more taxes and rich individuals would pay significantly less. people that are living around the poverty line losing 9 percent of income is relatively a lot to them, while the opposite is not true. and getting ride of capital gains tax benefit the wealthy more compared to the rest of the population. | ||
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Chargelot
2275 Posts
On October 17 2011 07:05 Coraz wrote: The tax rate won't matter when we initiate Israeli-Iran war and they close the straits of hormuz and gas skyrockets to $8/gal and the dollar implodes..... reduce the size of Big Govt, get rid of the redundant ATF, the redundant FDA, end the drug war, end the CIA rampaging across the world murdering and wasting our money, end THE FED, bring back manufacturing and agriculture to our country. I think it's too late to avoid the total meltdown, though. It's all being done by design and we're decades (if not a century) into it. The only thing that will save us is divine intervention at this point. (Yes i'm talkin bout Jeeesus) OP: Romney and barry are insider occultists so I don't see how their tax plans (which probably have tons of loopholes and irrelevant draconian laws tacked on on page 1,200) could possibly do anything to help us, the useless eaters. I haven't read their tax plans so I can't say anything specific. I've never seen such a large tinfoil hat. It is certainly an impressive one, good sir, but I'm afraid the aliens have prepared for that. You should have made it out of lead. | ||
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abominare
United States1216 Posts
Unlike traditional sales taxes in many states, cain's tax actually hits at all levels of production. Thus making the sales tax multiply ad every additional level in the chain. Such that say on the movement of wheat to bread looks like this. Farmer sells to wheat supplier at 1.00 +.09 tax for the supplier Supplier sells to bread maker at 1.09+ .0981 tax Supplier sells to grocery for 1.188 + .1069 tax You buy from grocery 1.2949 + .1165 Tax Bread is now a total cost of about 1.4114 and thats considering that no one in this example wanted to do anything but break even, and of course you'll find in the world there are often more than 4 levels of production for many goods, not including how the increases in prices due to the tax would affect the materials the farmer used to get said wheat. According to his website hes hoping that the reduction in taxes no longer applicable to the industries will compensate and keep prices in line. (of course that line of thought doesn't even make sense in the corp tax world but whatever) Which is a lot more hope that Obama asked for. You're giving the man too much credit if you think the cost of good will only go up 9% | ||
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Kiarip
United States1835 Posts
On October 17 2011 07:53 Chargelot wrote: I've never seen such a large tinfoil hat. It is certainly an impressive one, good sir, but I'm afraid the aliens have prepared for that. You should have made it out of lead. It's hilarious when people make hyperbolic arguments just to make it easy for people to try and discredit their actual point, and yet STILL all they can get in response is an ad hominem. Coraz must really be onto something. | ||
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dupshflayh
Norway49 Posts
On October 16 2011 23:59 Darkalbino wrote: Why should I have to pay capital gains if day trading is my full time self employed job? Why am I the exception to the rule? Well, a baker has his bread to show for his work. A business owner has whatever his business produces, the policeman protects your rights and has criminals in prison to show for his work. What do you have to show for your work? In my eyes, you're just a leech off the system. Oh no, you get double taxed. Triple, nay quadruple, daytraders taxes is my stance. You're not even doing long term investing with daytrading. Twisting money in that way shouldn't be paid good at all, but maybe be a hobby you make 3-4 dollars an hour to do. But enough of my personal opinion. Someone has to get the short end of the stick. This time it's daytraders and other small groups. In reality, it should be the banks, but they're "too big to fail" lol. | ||
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Chargelot
2275 Posts
On October 17 2011 08:20 Kiarip wrote: It's hilarious when people make hyperbolic arguments just to make it easy for people to try and discredit their actual point, and yet STILL all they can get in response is an ad hominem. Coraz must really be onto something. He's on something. Not onto something. He says we should eliminate the ATF and FDA, the organizations which create and enforce drug laws, and end the CIA, the organization killing Al Qaeda (et al) soldiers who also happen to benefit off the growth and sale of heroin, while simultaneously referring to two serious political candidates as occultists. That wasn't emotion, that was blunt logic. | ||
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Kiarip
United States1835 Posts
On October 17 2011 08:34 Chargelot wrote: He's on something. Not onto something. He says we should eliminate the ATF and FDA, the organizations which create and enforce drug laws, and end the CIA, the organization killing Al Qaeda (et al) soldiers who also happen to benefit off the growth and sale of heroin, while simultaneously referring to two serious political candidates as occultists. That wasn't emotion, that was blunt logic. FDA is driving up the cost of medicine and healthcare sooo much. ATF picks winners and losers all the time, both are heavily influenced by lobbyists. The CIA is at the front-edge of our imperialism. you're right he's not onto anything. | ||
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_Major
United States107 Posts
On October 17 2011 05:57 Sentient wrote: Economists agree that the 9-9-9 would raise taxes on middle class families, up to twice as much as they pay now. (Partly due to elimination of tax breaks for child care, and partly due to the highly regressive sales tax.) Sure it lets you save money, but it's less money than you save right now. And how many middle class families would really benefit from 0% tax on capital gains? That particular tax cut benefits almost exclusively the wealthy. Don't get me wrong, I desperately want a simpler tax code, but the facts are that the 9-9-9 plan raises taxes on the middle class and cuts taxes on the wealthy. Isn't that the definition of wealth redistribution that conservatives hate so much? Economists also agree that middle class families are taking on too much debt and are not saving enough. Oddly enough the Federal government forces us to lend them considerably more money than we owe in order to realize these "tax rates", all while a majority of middle-class Americans are forced to take on debt while they wait to get their tax return back. It's a shaky foundation that becomes the focus and the distraction for all policy decisions; I prefer having a more dependable one. As for capital gains it is not supposed to be exclusive to the wealthy. Investing is something that anyone can do - and the middle class could especially benefit from. Propping up legislation that demands otherwise only makes global/national bank chains and the rich elite more powerful, because they become the only places to go to for financial assistance. | ||
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mrafaeldie12
Brazil537 Posts
Wee for raising taxes on the middle class. Herman Cain is just another corporate lunatic. | ||
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_Major
United States107 Posts
On October 17 2011 08:05 abominare wrote: I talked about this before, and one of the more amusing poitns of the 9-9-9 plan is the sales tax. Unlike traditional sales taxes in many states, cain's tax actually hits at all levels of production. Thus making the sales tax multiply ad every additional level in the chain. Such that say on the movement of wheat to bread looks like this. Farmer sells to wheat supplier at 1.00 +.09 tax for the supplier Supplier sells to bread maker at 1.09+ .0981 tax Supplier sells to grocery for 1.188 + .1069 tax You buy from grocery 1.2949 + .1165 Tax Bread is now a total cost of about 1.4114 and thats considering that no one in this example wanted to do anything but break even, and of course you'll find in the world there are often more than 4 levels of production for many goods, not including how the increases in prices due to the tax would affect the materials the farmer used to get said wheat. According to his website hes hoping that the reduction in taxes no longer applicable to the industries will compensate and keep prices in line. (of course that line of thought doesn't even make sense in the corp tax world but whatever) Which is a lot more hope that Obama asked for. You're giving the man too much credit if you think the cost of good will only go up 9% I agree with you, but I think you are letting production off the hook. The cost of goods shouldn't be something the consumer cares about. If bread costs too much to buy from the store then people won't buy it and will figure out another way to get it. IMO, challenges like these force innovation - if someone really wants to be a bread maker they will find a way to make money doing it. | ||
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Weebem-Na
United States221 Posts
His 9,9,9 plan reminds me of his statements about making Bills no more than 3 pages, so that they can be easily read thereby simplifying the legislative process. Sure, it sounds great in theory. Then, you think about it for a couple of seconds... One last point about the plan I must make: This is a radical plan of the type I would expect from a libertarian candidate. It really shows how far right our political "center" has moved that a republican can run for president with a plan of this type. | ||
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Chargelot
2275 Posts
On October 17 2011 08:54 Kiarip wrote: FDA is driving up the cost of medicine and healthcare sooo much. ATF picks winners and losers all the time, both are heavily influenced by lobbyists. The CIA is at the front-edge of our imperialism. you're right he's not onto anything. The FDA takes advice straight from the 27 NIH. If you want to dismantle the organizations responsible for driving up health care prices, you're going to have to dismantle the American health care system. The ATF does more good than bad, but could probably use some new management. Destroying the front-edge of our imperialism doesn't destroy our imperialism. It just means we have to use the blunt-edge. I'd say a drone strike is a hell of a lot better than a carpet bomb. | ||
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