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We are extremely close to shutting down this thread for the same reasons the PUA thread was shut down. While some of the time this thread contains actual discussion with people asking help and people giving nice advice, it often gets derailed by rubbish that should not be here. The moderation team will be trying to steer this thread in a different direction from now on.
Posts of the following nature are banned:
1) ANYTHING regarding PUA. If your post contains the words 'alpha' or 'beta' or anything of that sort please don't hit post.
2) Stupid brags. You can tell us about your nice success stories with someone, but posts such as 'lol 50 Tinder matches' are a no-no.
3) Any misogynistic bullshit, including discussion about rape culture.
4) One night stands and random sex. These are basically brags that invariably devolve into gender role discussions and misogynistic comments.
Last chance, guys. This thread is for dating advice and sharing dating stories. While gender roles, sociocultural norms, and our biological imperative to reproduce are all tangentially related, these subjects are not the main purpose of the thread. Please AVOID these discussions. If you want to discuss them at length, go to PMs or start a blog. If you disagree with someone's ideologies, state that you disagree with them and why they won't work from a dating standpoint and move on. We will not tolerate any lengthy derailments that aren't directly about dating. |
On May 11 2013 01:14 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2013 00:51 HardlyNever wrote:On May 11 2013 00:26 r.Evo wrote:My last gf hated the idea of marriage, despite my "best efforts" to show her a stable relationship and marriages that do last, it never changed her view. Not despite. Because. That's exactly what I just tried to explain. That makes absolutely no sense. She had this idea before I ever met her, and trying to show her the reverse reinforces that same idea? You're either trolling or this is some PUA crap. People choose to stick to certain beliefs or behaviours because they do positive things for them. If for some reason she, on an emotional level, believes that marriage is a horrible thing and you offer her logical solutions against her belief you reinforce that belief because suddenly it has to defend itself. It is impossible to combat something that's emotionally motivated with a logical argument. The method that's probably most effective in such a situation is a stronger emotional argument that's completely illogical because it hits at both places at the same time. She is against marriage and you assume it has an emotional background? Agree with her and tell her that you think marriage is indeed something retarded because it makes people more likely to cheat, married couples are worse off financially and that the only reason to marry is because the involved parties are insecure about whether they can build a future together or not. But, hey, that's just trolling or PUA crap anyway.
It's a moot point, b/c we've been broken up for a while. I don't really care about your personal views on marriage one way or another. All you're doing is reinforcing what I said: you can't change someone, it is up to them to "change." You are suggesting some sort of infantile reverse psychology, that strikes me as very "PUA," but it could be some other form of weird thinking.
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On May 10 2013 22:00 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 21:19 kaykaykay wrote:
What do you do when you're with a handful of girls who are all interested in you?
Make an excuse to get out of the way and later find some alone time with all of them? Invite them all for a massive orgy with you as the star attraction.
Well, I would love an appropriate response because I wish I was just bragging.
No, I genuinely need help. The camp is coming up soon and I hate to be caught in the middle.
+ Show Spoiler +If it helps, I'm single and I would date any of those girls. But when you have to mingle with a couple of them at one go, I feel flustered because I can't give a single girl my undivided attention. And also partly because I worry about the inclinations they may have when they see me responding flirtatiously to another member of the opposite sex.
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On May 11 2013 01:24 HardlyNever wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2013 01:14 r.Evo wrote:On May 11 2013 00:51 HardlyNever wrote:On May 11 2013 00:26 r.Evo wrote:My last gf hated the idea of marriage, despite my "best efforts" to show her a stable relationship and marriages that do last, it never changed her view. Not despite. Because. That's exactly what I just tried to explain. That makes absolutely no sense. She had this idea before I ever met her, and trying to show her the reverse reinforces that same idea? You're either trolling or this is some PUA crap. People choose to stick to certain beliefs or behaviours because they do positive things for them. If for some reason she, on an emotional level, believes that marriage is a horrible thing and you offer her logical solutions against her belief you reinforce that belief because suddenly it has to defend itself. It is impossible to combat something that's emotionally motivated with a logical argument. The method that's probably most effective in such a situation is a stronger emotional argument that's completely illogical because it hits at both places at the same time. She is against marriage and you assume it has an emotional background? Agree with her and tell her that you think marriage is indeed something retarded because it makes people more likely to cheat, married couples are worse off financially and that the only reason to marry is because the involved parties are insecure about whether they can build a future together or not. But, hey, that's just trolling or PUA crap anyway. It's a moot point, b/c we've been broken up for a while. I don't really care about your personal views on marriage one way or another. All you're doing is reinforcing what I said: you can't change someone, it is up to them to "change." You are suggesting some sort of infantile reverse psychology, that strikes me as very "PUA," but it could be some other form of weird thinking.
I showed you the door, it's up to you if you want to walk through it. Though you interpreting things into my answer which were never said or implied and throwing insults out shows that you seem just happy with how you handled the situation back then in your mind and would do the same again. No need to get defensive because someone suggested that it takes two people to make things work out.
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Worst relationship: my last ex.
Why? Cus she left me TT.
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On May 11 2013 01:14 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2013 00:51 HardlyNever wrote:On May 11 2013 00:26 r.Evo wrote:My last gf hated the idea of marriage, despite my "best efforts" to show her a stable relationship and marriages that do last, it never changed her view. Not despite. Because. That's exactly what I just tried to explain. That makes absolutely no sense. She had this idea before I ever met her, and trying to show her the reverse reinforces that same idea? You're either trolling or this is some PUA crap. It is impossible to combat something that's emotionally motivated with a logical argument.
This is not actually true. Logical analysis of emotions is perfectly convincing if done properly. The key is honest communication and probing of why emotional constructs are in place. This is pretty much the foundation of cognitive behavioural therapy, for example. The idea is that emotional motivations have catalysis and origins in addition to functions. Using emotional ploys to combat emotional motivations is effective but ultimately very risky because there is essentially no grounding or protection against future emotional shifts. Conversely, introspection can result in emotionally backed but ultimately well-understood beliefs.
What matters most is the form the logical arguments takes. People are often convinced by logical provided their emotional belief is not subject to ridicule or direct confrontation. This why, for instance, debating abortion rarely results in someone changing their mind, but constructing an ethics or conception of rights from the ground up might result in someone ultimately switching from one side to the other with respect to abortion.
tl;dr people change their minds all the time. Logical argument doesn't mean "you're wrong because x, y, z." You have to take emotions into account and respect them without deferring to them.
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You're right, I'm lying for kids here. What I'm referring to is what the majority of guys perceive as "I threw logic at her and she didn't change her mind despite me making a great case". I find it much easier to suggest "stay away from logical arguments about emotional topics" than to suggest "try to not ridicule/confront an emotional belief with your logic" because the latter is much harder to pull off when someone lacks the experience in that area.
Where I disagree however is that emotional ploys have no grounding or protection against shifts. I'm not exactly sure how frequent it is, but for the majority of people I worked with an emotional shift comes along with "Wow, that means if I think about this past event now, it completely changes what I thought about it back then", grounding the shift in the process and it also provokes a thought among the lines of "Wait, if I apply what I just learned to a hypothetical future situation...", future proofing it in the process.
In cases where this doesn't happen automatically it doesn't need much more than a small push in the form of a question to provoke that reaction. ... Are we still on the same page or did you refer to something else when you were talking about the risky parts?
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On May 11 2013 03:26 r.Evo wrote:
You're right, I'm lying for kids here. What I'm referring to is what the majority of guys perceive as "I threw logic at her and she didn't change her mind despite me making a great case". I find it much easier to suggest "stay away from logical arguments about emotional topics" than to suggest "try to not ridicule/confront an emotional belief with your logic" because the latter is much harder to pull off when someone lacks the experience in that area.
Where I disagree however is that emotional ploys have no grounding or protection against shifts. I'm not exactly sure how frequent it is, but for the majority of people I worked with an emotional shift comes along with "Wow, that means if I think about this past event now, it completely changes what I thought about it back then", grounding the shift in the process and it also provokes a thought among the lines of "Wait, if I apply what I just learned to a hypothetical future situation...", future proofing it in the process.
In cases where this doesn't happen automatically it doesn't need much more than a small push in the form of a question to provoke that reaction. ... Are we still on the same page or did you refer to something else when you were talking about the risky parts?
The problem is that emotional ploys do nothing more than alter the direction of the emotional motivation behind a belief. They are risky in the sense that future emotional upheaval can very easily fuck things up. This is because there is no logical framework for a person to cling to in the event that something totally unexpected or emotional happens in their future. Emotional shifts are sensitive because they are by nature only capable of reckoning with previously experienced emotional states. If something really drastic but new happens in the future, the previous emotional position offers essentially nothing in the way of interpreting it.
Maybe I was wrong to say that emotional ploys have "no grounding," but they certainly have less than a deep, rational belief constructed by self-reflection.
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On May 11 2013 01:25 kaykaykay wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 22:00 marvellosity wrote:On May 10 2013 21:19 kaykaykay wrote:
What do you do when you're with a handful of girls who are all interested in you?
Make an excuse to get out of the way and later find some alone time with all of them? Invite them all for a massive orgy with you as the star attraction. Well, I would love an appropriate response because I wish I was just bragging. No, I genuinely need help. The camp is coming up soon and I hate to be caught in the middle. + Show Spoiler +If it helps, I'm single and I would date any of those girls. But when you have to mingle with a couple of them at one go, I feel flustered because I can't give a single girl my undivided attention. And also partly because I worry about the inclinations they may have when they see me responding flirtatiously to another member of the opposite sex.
I think that if they really are as interested in you as you describe, seeing that they have competition will probably make it so they'll be the ones trying to get some alone time with you. Women are suckers for guys that other women fancy (and there is a perfectly good biological reason). So feel free to flirt back, even in group settings.
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On May 11 2013 03:26 r.Evo wrote:
You're right, I'm lying for kids here. What I'm referring to is what the majority of guys perceive as "I threw logic at her and she didn't change her mind despite me making a great case". I find it much easier to suggest "stay away from logical arguments about emotional topics" than to suggest "try to not ridicule/confront an emotional belief with your logic" because the latter is much harder to pull off when someone lacks the experience in that area.
Where I disagree however is that emotional ploys have no grounding or protection against shifts. I'm not exactly sure how frequent it is, but for the majority of people I worked with an emotional shift comes along with "Wow, that means if I think about this past event now, it completely changes what I thought about it back then", grounding the shift in the process and it also provokes a thought among the lines of "Wait, if I apply what I just learned to a hypothetical future situation...", future proofing it in the process.
In cases where this doesn't happen automatically it doesn't need much more than a small push in the form of a question to provoke that reaction. ... Are we still on the same page or did you refer to something else when you were talking about the risky parts?
Going off my past experience, the big 'aha' I had to figure out was that instead of trying to persuade her via argumentation or verbal logic that she should be dating me, I had to learn how to show her reasons why she would be better off dating me instead of being single or dating whoever else she was dating. And by show her, I don't mean dumb ways of showing off like lavishing her with material objects. The best ways of showing off involve figuring out what's the one thing that tickles her fancy - does she have a dream of being an artist, for example - and then maneuvering yourself into a position where you can be the provider of that desire *and* letting her know about that in a way that is not creepy or completely obvious.
E.g. you see a girl, she's kind of artsy and dresses down, but her real desire is to live the life of a Vera Wang or Coco Chanel - she has a passion for fashion and design. She also wants to live her life in the arms of a man who loves her for her interests (which will stay) as opposed to her looks (which will fade). So then just start taking her out to places which get her closer to what she wants, but which also intersect with aspects of your own life - e.g. let's say you're working in tech - so you'd take her to, say, launch events for new devices which combine fashion and technology, like the Google Glass or Samsung IV launch event in NYC or San Fran.
TLDR - make it seem like you and her have a natural fit - without pushing things so hard that she feels like you're trying to force a square peg into a round hole. Convince her you guys would work out together without ever saying "hey I like you". Then, once she's giving off all the right hints, hold her under a sodium streetlamp alive with fluttering cicadas and let her know the feeling is mutual with a kiss worthy of an Oscar.
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Northern Ireland26505 Posts
On May 11 2013 00:09 McBengt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 17:11 Wombat_NI wrote:I actually struggle with a similar lady, although her issues are slightly different. She's not so much worried about potential infidelity, indeed one of our shared jokes is my borderline incompetence in most situations where I'd be around women  It's more a general lack of self-confidence in certain spheres, with a healthy dose of paranoia on the side that she sometimes struggles with. We're very open and I could probably write a good psych profile on certain of her exes. The issue is that you can't really fight feelings that are, to me anyway, illogical, with logic. As somebody who is blunt and whose partner's pet name is 'The Robot', I quickly learned that my skillset was somewhat lacking in dealing with neuroses that I cannot understand, despite my reasonably functional empathy circuits. Anyway, part of her issues stem from a series of assholes stretching way back. One who was somewhat physically abusive, but another who ground down her self esteem over an extended period to make himself feel better about himself. The latter I pinpointed as especially damaging, but equally intriguing to me is that in this case, and in other anecdotal instances of similar occurrences, that kind of man actually really seeps into the psyche. My approach was to try and ape some of that approach, but obviously not to psychologically abuse her! I found that pussyfooting around things, indulging her, or talking things through in bed were rather ineffective. Simply putting your foot down, demanding rather than debating etc etc rather counter-intuitively (in my case anyway) seems to mitigate some of the damage that the same behaviour in the past has done to her self-image. Case in point, she's very, very neurotic about food, being overweight etc, and constantly seeks validation on that. I genuinely don't care, and stated so in increasingly irritated tones, but alas to no avail. At one stage I got so sick of her continually bleating on about her body image that I went into our cupboard and either obscured or cut out all the nutritional information on the food there. She was rather amused by this demonstration of my irritation, after which I told her to get dressed and took her out for some good wholesome food. I am rather loathe to type this, as I can see that the cold textual format doesn't really paint me in a particularly favourable life, as you folks don't get to see much of the intangible things that go on in our household. Are you talking about your current partner? If this is the case, perhaps I should apologise for some of the more crass jokes I made earlier. On a side note, I had to deal with a girl like that in school, though as a part of a circle of friends. Drove me crazy, I felt sorry for her and wanted to strangle her out of sheer frustration all at once. We have a rather similar personality where stuff like this is concerned by the sounds of it, I just cannot wrap my head around people not responding to logic. Taught me patience, if nothing else.
Stop apologising like a pussy She found your strange turns of phrase rather amusing, she's not too serious or annoying about most things other than her weight for some reason!
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From December to around March I had been having sex with a friend of mine, around twice or thrice a week. We would sometimes hang around each other and have occasional phone calls, but nothing serious and the topic of a relationship never came up, as I knew that she wouldn't be interested, that we would make an abysmal couple and that she was still hung up on her ex boyfriend. So one day she's in tears and tells me she has something horrible to admit. Obviously, she had slept with her ex. I wasn't sure why she even told me and said something along the lines of: "That's really not a problem, I've assumed you had been doing that all along.", because I really had assumed that. Suddenly she screams at me, do I take her for a whore, what a horrible thing to say, yada yada. I tried to calm her down, but ultimately left and haven't heard from her since.
Here's the problem: when I left in a hurry, I forgot that she still has my ukulele. How do I get her to mail it to me, without being too inconsiderate?
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Dating life has been great. I broke out of a 3 and1/2 year relationship in December (mutual). Ever since then I have been on numerous dates with some girls. I am most excited about the one I have tomorrow though. Really awesome chick. Going to take her to New Orleans for the day and surprise he with some fun stuff, and an amazing dinner. She is the only girl which I have met so far which is dateable. I'll update later this weekend =).
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On May 11 2013 04:29 kafkaesque wrote:
From December to around March I had been having sex with a friend of mine, around twice or thrice a week. We would sometimes hang around each other and have occasional phone calls, but nothing serious and the topic of a relationship never came up, as I knew that she wouldn't be interested, that we would make an abysmal couple and that she was still hung up on her ex boyfriend. So one day she's in tears and tells me she has something horrible to admit. Obviously, she had slept with her ex. I wasn't sure why she even told me and said something along the lines of: "That's really not a problem, I've assumed you had been doing that all along.", because I really had assumed that. Suddenly she screams at me, do I take her for a whore, what a horrible thing to say, yada yada. I tried to calm her down, but ultimately left and haven't heard from her since.
Here's the problem: when I left in a hurry, I forgot that she still has my ukulele. How do I get her to mail it to me, without being too inconsiderate?
Hate to break it to you dude but you just poked her where it hurts (no pun intended). You're lucky if she hasn't already done unspeakable things to your instrument.
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On May 11 2013 04:29 kafkaesque wrote:
From December to around March I had been having sex with a friend of mine, around twice or thrice a week. We would sometimes hang around each other and have occasional phone calls, but nothing serious and the topic of a relationship never came up, as I knew that she wouldn't be interested, that we would make an abysmal couple and that she was still hung up on her ex boyfriend. So one day she's in tears and tells me she has something horrible to admit. Obviously, she had slept with her ex. I wasn't sure why she even told me and said something along the lines of: "That's really not a problem, I've assumed you had been doing that all along.", because I really had assumed that. Suddenly she screams at me, do I take her for a whore, what a horrible thing to say, yada yada. I tried to calm her down, but ultimately left and haven't heard from her since.
Here's the problem: when I left in a hurry, I forgot that she still has my ukulele. How do I get her to mail it to me, without being too inconsiderate?
Operation: break into fuck-buddy's house. I'm sure you'll find someone to accompany you.
No seriously, i'm kinda with Shady here. I wouldn't be surprised if she has destroyed your Ukulele.
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On May 11 2013 04:50 Grettin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2013 04:29 kafkaesque wrote:
From December to around March I had been having sex with a friend of mine, around twice or thrice a week. We would sometimes hang around each other and have occasional phone calls, but nothing serious and the topic of a relationship never came up, as I knew that she wouldn't be interested, that we would make an abysmal couple and that she was still hung up on her ex boyfriend. So one day she's in tears and tells me she has something horrible to admit. Obviously, she had slept with her ex. I wasn't sure why she even told me and said something along the lines of: "That's really not a problem, I've assumed you had been doing that all along.", because I really had assumed that. Suddenly she screams at me, do I take her for a whore, what a horrible thing to say, yada yada. I tried to calm her down, but ultimately left and haven't heard from her since.
Here's the problem: when I left in a hurry, I forgot that she still has my ukulele. How do I get her to mail it to me, without being too inconsiderate? Operation: break into fuck-buddy's house. I'm sure you'll find someone to accompany you. No seriously, i'm kinda with Shady here. I wouldn't be surprised if she has destroyed your Ukulele.
Like the issue is obviously deep down inside she felt some degree of guilt and confusion over a broken desire to be attached to somebody while sleeping with you. Your comment just kind of popped her bubble in the most brutal manner possible - brutal, because your tone was so banal, implying that you didn't even give a fuck if she committed to you and hence her worth as a chaste, decent girl was zero in your eyes and you never wanted it to rise above zero.
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On May 11 2013 03:55 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2013 00:09 McBengt wrote:On May 10 2013 17:11 Wombat_NI wrote:I actually struggle with a similar lady, although her issues are slightly different. She's not so much worried about potential infidelity, indeed one of our shared jokes is my borderline incompetence in most situations where I'd be around women It's more a general lack of self-confidence in certain spheres, with a healthy dose of paranoia on the side that she sometimes struggles with. We're very open and I could probably write a good psych profile on certain of her exes. The issue is that you can't really fight feelings that are, to me anyway, illogical, with logic. As somebody who is blunt and whose partner's pet name is 'The Robot', I quickly learned that my skillset was somewhat lacking in dealing with neuroses that I cannot understand, despite my reasonably functional empathy circuits. Anyway, part of her issues stem from a series of assholes stretching way back. One who was somewhat physically abusive, but another who ground down her self esteem over an extended period to make himself feel better about himself. The latter I pinpointed as especially damaging, but equally intriguing to me is that in this case, and in other anecdotal instances of similar occurrences, that kind of man actually really seeps into the psyche. My approach was to try and ape some of that approach, but obviously not to psychologically abuse her! I found that pussyfooting around things, indulging her, or talking things through in bed were rather ineffective. Simply putting your foot down, demanding rather than debating etc etc rather counter-intuitively (in my case anyway) seems to mitigate some of the damage that the same behaviour in the past has done to her self-image. Case in point, she's very, very neurotic about food, being overweight etc, and constantly seeks validation on that. I genuinely don't care, and stated so in increasingly irritated tones, but alas to no avail. At one stage I got so sick of her continually bleating on about her body image that I went into our cupboard and either obscured or cut out all the nutritional information on the food there. She was rather amused by this demonstration of my irritation, after which I told her to get dressed and took her out for some good wholesome food. I am rather loathe to type this, as I can see that the cold textual format doesn't really paint me in a particularly favourable life, as you folks don't get to see much of the intangible things that go on in our household. Are you talking about your current partner? If this is the case, perhaps I should apologise for some of the more crass jokes I made earlier. On a side note, I had to deal with a girl like that in school, though as a part of a circle of friends. Drove me crazy, I felt sorry for her and wanted to strangle her out of sheer frustration all at once. We have a rather similar personality where stuff like this is concerned by the sounds of it, I just cannot wrap my head around people not responding to logic. Taught me patience, if nothing else. Stop apologising like a pussy She found your strange turns of phrase rather amusing, she's not too serious or annoying about most things other than her weight for some reason!
I am deeply sorry for apologising, it shall not happen again, I swear upon the blood of the cat I ran over last week.
On a related note, I still haven't figured out of how get rid of the girl I mentioned earlier, and I'm too much of a non-confrontational person(read; wimp) to tell her straight up. She's nice, and I am terrible at confronting people without saying something really stupid/offensive. Would like to do this without being too much of a dick, a change of pace if nothing else.
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Northern Ireland26505 Posts
What's the issue again? Hopefully Wombat can distill some sage advice at a later juncture
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Only wimps run over cats. You're out. =(
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On May 11 2013 04:29 kafkaesque wrote:
From December to around March I had been having sex with a friend of mine, around twice or thrice a week. We would sometimes hang around each other and have occasional phone calls, but nothing serious and the topic of a relationship never came up, as I knew that she wouldn't be interested, that we would make an abysmal couple and that she was still hung up on her ex boyfriend. So one day she's in tears and tells me she has something horrible to admit. Obviously, she had slept with her ex. I wasn't sure why she even told me and said something along the lines of: "That's really not a problem, I've assumed you had been doing that all along.", because I really had assumed that. Suddenly she screams at me, do I take her for a whore, what a horrible thing to say, yada yada. I tried to calm her down, but ultimately left and haven't heard from her since.
Here's the problem: when I left in a hurry, I forgot that she still has my ukulele. How do I get her to mail it to me, without being too inconsiderate?
This actually made me laugh out loud.
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EPT
