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Country bashing will result in bans from 00:20 KST onward. |
On November 03 2011 06:02 Gigaudas wrote:
Two out of fifty thousand people committing rape = not statistically unlikely. Using this against U.S. troop presence is not a good argument. Comments such as "What the fuck is wrong with soldiers today..." are emotional bullshit.
Why is debating or stating your opinion more about rhetorics or emotion than what it should be - about logic (statistics and numbers). Basing a statement such as "What the fuck is wrong with soldiers today..." on this event is, if not a lie, an attempt to mislead or just a failure to think rationally.
This is a case of two people being morons. The punishment turned out to be severe (more sever than normally due to political reasons) but this is not an issue with U.S. troop presence.
You're applying statistics across a general population to a specific group of people: soldiers. Chances are crime rates amongst soldiers is lower than that of the civilian population. If it isn't, then I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that something isn't wrong with soldiers then if they commit more crimes than civilians.
And ultimately, when you have soldiers stationed overseas, having them commit crimes against the local civilian populations is definitely different than the day to day rape that happens. No, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect zero rapes from US soldiers stationed overseas. I mean that both emotionally and pragmatically.
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is sex with koeans forbidden?
User was temp banned for this post.
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On November 05 2011 20:49 StuartLove wrote:
is sex with koeans forbidden?
Are you stupid or you just didn't bother reading anything? (or it might just have been a stupid question)
Two U.S. soldiers have been accused of raping teenage girls in South Korea in separate incidents, prompting U.S. military officials to apologize Saturday as they tried to ease growing public anger.
Think again pal
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Why the hell are they even still there? The american army is getting pretty silly.
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In the USA alone, there is a rape every 2 minutes. Yet, we never hear about these ~700 women every day...
Dont get me wrong, rape is of course awful but I find it wrong how it has seen the public eye only because it was committed by an American soldier. Like it's more important because of the rapist's identify not the actual crime itself. A sad state of affairs for all the victims.
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This is yet another example of why standing armies are bad. They cause conflict, military build-up, arms race, spreads the inherent fascist culture within in the army out to the society as a whole, celebrates the patriarchal structure and encourage violence as a way to solve conflict between states ad people.
Where are the doves and olive branches?
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On November 05 2011 21:09 Psychobabas wrote:
In the USA alone, there is a rape every 2 minutes. Yet, we never hear about these ~700 women every day...
Dont get me wrong, rape is of course awful but I find it wrong how it has seen the public eye only because it was committed by an American soldier. Like it's more important because of the rapist's identify not the actual crime itself. A sad state of affairs for all the victims.
Like I mentioned in my previous post, applying statistics across general populations to soldiers makes zero sense because:
1) Yes, we do expect soldiers to be better people than civilians.
2) Fact is, crimes committed against people of other countrymen get more exposure. Seeing as how you're from the UK, I imagine you heard of the Meredith Kercher murder. So what happens when I say you're not allowed to analyze, talk about or care about the murder because homicides happen every day?
Basically I find it baffling to hold the opinion: "Well this terrible crime happens all the time. So we're not allowed to talk about this one incident because it's belittling to all of the victims of this terrible crime." Should people not be allowed to talk about individuals who have died to cancer either because that is unfair to all cancer patients?
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these stories allways make me sad, they are so biased towards the elite (soldiers are elite, since they serve the power).
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Active duty USAF here..
While I'll start off with saying yes, it is unfortunate that these events happened and those accused should be punished to the upmost extent of which ever jurisdiction holds custody of the case. However, the hate towards the US military, ESPECIALLY from other Americans kind of worries me.
While I'm not stationed around the region in question, I have a lot of friends who currently are and have been. Army, AF, and Marines. There are bad people everywhere and them being military personnel does not change that nor does it empower them in anyway what so ever.
Someone mentioned "What's wrong with soldiers now a days?" I ask, what do you mean?
Do you mean taking a 20 year old KID and putting him on the other side of the world away from his comfort zone, family, friends, etc for X amount of years, working non stop and constantly being pushed by his chain of command has adverse side effects that could trigger abnormal actions from an individual that under normal circumstances probably wouldn't occur?
If so, then yes I agree.
However if you meant to state that american soldiers are garbage and try to exploit, abuse, and outright ignore foreign laws and policy because they have little to no repercussions then I feel you are sadly misinformed.
An Army Private is hardly a professional in his chosen career field. He is an apprentice at best. Young and stupid just like anyone at that age.
I've always wondered why if the Koreans and Japanese hate us so much then why are most military spouses Korean or Japanese? Sometimes it's for the money, or a ticket out of the country. Sounds stupid, but a guarantee you it's truth. Any girl can claim rape even if it was consensual. I've seen it happen multiple times in my career, even stateside. Not saying that's the case here, but certainly it shouldn't be overlooked as plausible.
While I do agree we have to many bases around the world, and while many will be closing their doors soon, don't expect the presence in Korea or Japan to go away. They are fighter bases for a reason. We don't have that many troops and weapons there to flex the American super power. The military is about saving money just like any other business, and while a lot of spending may seem irresponsible and excessive, a lot of it is not as well. A lot of living situations for military members is sub par, especially when it comes to the Army in comparison. You don't see a lot of the spending cuts we do, because you aren't directly effected by them.
Sorry for the rant, but unless you have served it's really irritating when someone bashes any military service and talks about how they know it all and how easily it could be changed for the better. This situation certainly should not be about the military presence or the actions of the smallest margin of its people. Simply those involved.
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On November 06 2011 05:42 BabyCrusher wrote:
Active duty USAF here..
While I'll start off with saying yes, it is unfortunate that these events happened and those accused should be punished to the upmost extent of which ever jurisdiction holds custody of the case. However, the hate towards the US military, ESPECIALLY from other Americans kind of worries me.
While I'm not stationed around the region in question, I have a lot of friends who currently are and have been. Army, AF, and Marines. There are bad people everywhere and them being military personnel does not change that nor does it empower them in anyway what so ever.
Someone mentioned "What's wrong with soldiers now a days?" I ask, what do you mean?
Do you mean taking a 20 year old KID and putting him on the other side of the world away from his comfort zone, family, friends, etc for X amount of years, working non stop and constantly being pushed by his chain of command has adverse side effects that could trigger abnormal actions from an individual that under normal circumstances probably wouldn't occur?
If so, then yes I agree.
However if you meant to state that american soldiers are garbage and try to exploit, abuse, and outright ignore foreign laws and policy because they have little to no repercussions then I feel you are sadly misinformed.
An Army Private is hardly a professional in his chosen career field. He is an apprentice at best. Young and stupid just like anyone at that age.
Apologists runnin' wild all up in this bitch. So, soldiers who rape are just young, stupid, confused kids. Awesome. Who needs accountability? Looks like rapists are just misunderstood people!
Your frequent references to age and rank disturb me. Exactly how old does someone have to be, or how "professional" does somehow have to be, before we can condemn them as rapists? 21 years old? 22? Ranked as Sergeants or higher? Fucking bullshit, man.
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On November 06 2011 05:53 MountainDewJunkie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 05:42 BabyCrusher wrote:
Active duty USAF here..
While I'll start off with saying yes, it is unfortunate that these events happened and those accused should be punished to the upmost extent of which ever jurisdiction holds custody of the case. However, the hate towards the US military, ESPECIALLY from other Americans kind of worries me.
While I'm not stationed around the region in question, I have a lot of friends who currently are and have been. Army, AF, and Marines. There are bad people everywhere and them being military personnel does not change that nor does it empower them in anyway what so ever.
Someone mentioned "What's wrong with soldiers now a days?" I ask, what do you mean?
Do you mean taking a 20 year old KID and putting him on the other side of the world away from his comfort zone, family, friends, etc for X amount of years, working non stop and constantly being pushed by his chain of command has adverse side effects that could trigger abnormal actions from an individual that under normal circumstances probably wouldn't occur?
If so, then yes I agree.
However if you meant to state that american soldiers are garbage and try to exploit, abuse, and outright ignore foreign laws and policy because they have little to no repercussions then I feel you are sadly misinformed.
An Army Private is hardly a professional in his chosen career field. He is an apprentice at best. Young and stupid just like anyone at that age.
Apologists runnin' wild all up in this bitch. So, soldiers who rape are just young, stupid, confused kids. Awesome. Who needs accountability? Looks like rapists are just misunderstood people! Your frequent references to age and rank disturb me. Exactly how old does someone have to be, or how "professional" does somehow have to be, before we can condemn them as rapists? 21 years old? 22? Ranked as Sergeants or higher? Fucking bullshit, man.
yea completely agree, you need to put your military membership-bias to the side and judge it as it is.
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Oh yes, we're the fucking police of the world. Let's place soldiers in every country so that they can bring their ignorant US bravado and do whatever the hell they want. Everyone keeps saying "It's a shame these people bring a bad name to our military" and stuff like that, but give me a break. This happens constantly. This is not just one instance, but NUMEROUS instances where US soldiers fuck shit up in non-combat regions. You're right, they don't represent our military as a whole. But they do represent a PART of the military. And that's the big problem. I seriously don't see any justifications for putting US troops in other countries. If we put troops in their country, then they have a right to put theirs in ours, under the guise of a "Just in case" scenario. Such hypocrisy.
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On November 06 2011 05:42 BabyCrusher wrote:
Active duty USAF here..
While I'll start off with saying yes, it is unfortunate that these events happened and those accused should be punished to the upmost extent of which ever jurisdiction holds custody of the case. However, the hate towards the US military, ESPECIALLY from other Americans kind of worries me.
While I'm not stationed around the region in question, I have a lot of friends who currently are and have been. Army, AF, and Marines. There are bad people everywhere and them being military personnel does not change that nor does it empower them in anyway what so ever.
Someone mentioned "What's wrong with soldiers now a days?" I ask, what do you mean?
Do you mean taking a 20 year old KID and putting him on the other side of the world away from his comfort zone, family, friends, etc for X amount of years, working non stop and constantly being pushed by his chain of command has adverse side effects that could trigger abnormal actions from an individual that under normal circumstances probably wouldn't occur?
If so, then yes I agree.
However if you meant to state that american soldiers are garbage and try to exploit, abuse, and outright ignore foreign laws and policy because they have little to no repercussions then I feel you are sadly misinformed.
An Army Private is hardly a professional in his chosen career field. He is an apprentice at best. Young and stupid just like anyone at that age.
I've always wondered why if the Koreans and Japanese hate us so much then why are most military spouses Korean or Japanese? Sometimes it's for the money, or a ticket out of the country. Sounds stupid, but a guarantee you it's truth. Any girl can claim rape even if it was consensual. I've seen it happen multiple times in my career, even stateside. Not saying that's the case here, but certainly it shouldn't be overlooked as plausible.
While I do agree we have to many bases around the world, and while many will be closing their doors soon, don't expect the presence in Korea or Japan to go away. They are fighter bases for a reason. We don't have that many troops and weapons there to flex the American super power. The military is about saving money just like any other business, and while a lot of spending may seem irresponsible and excessive, a lot of it is not as well. A lot of living situations for military members is sub par, especially when it comes to the Army in comparison. You don't see a lot of the spending cuts we do, because you aren't directly effected by them.
Sorry for the rant, but unless you have served it's really irritating when someone bashes any military service and talks about how they know it all and how easily it could be changed for the better. This situation certainly should not be about the military presence or the actions of the smallest margin of its people. Simply those involved.
Japanese hate Americans because they lost a war and were taught, during the war, that Americans were uncultured mongrels that don't deserve much to live.
Koreans hate Americans because Theodore Roosevelt got the Nobel Peace Prize for creating the Japanese occupation of Korea. An occupation that destroyed more than 95% of the trees in Korea. An occupation that changed the language to the roots. An occupation that raped and killed and forcibly enlisted millions. An occupation that taught Koreans that the entire world can tell you to fucking die and not give one fucking shit.
Thank you for your service to our country, may you live happily and serve honorably.
Though, your ignorance of the hatred thrust upon you is not something that is to be forgiven. Blindly wondering WHY someone hates you does nothing to alleviate the hate that glares down on you.
Oh, and Koreans think they're the only cultured people on Earth. Nationalism is super huge, for a reason. I'm ethnically Korean but Nationally American.
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+ Show Spoiler +On November 06 2011 06:12 ShatterZer0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 05:42 BabyCrusher wrote:
Active duty USAF here..
While I'll start off with saying yes, it is unfortunate that these events happened and those accused should be punished to the upmost extent of which ever jurisdiction holds custody of the case. However, the hate towards the US military, ESPECIALLY from other Americans kind of worries me.
While I'm not stationed around the region in question, I have a lot of friends who currently are and have been. Army, AF, and Marines. There are bad people everywhere and them being military personnel does not change that nor does it empower them in anyway what so ever.
Someone mentioned "What's wrong with soldiers now a days?" I ask, what do you mean?
Do you mean taking a 20 year old KID and putting him on the other side of the world away from his comfort zone, family, friends, etc for X amount of years, working non stop and constantly being pushed by his chain of command has adverse side effects that could trigger abnormal actions from an individual that under normal circumstances probably wouldn't occur?
If so, then yes I agree.
However if you meant to state that american soldiers are garbage and try to exploit, abuse, and outright ignore foreign laws and policy because they have little to no repercussions then I feel you are sadly misinformed.
An Army Private is hardly a professional in his chosen career field. He is an apprentice at best. Young and stupid just like anyone at that age.
I've always wondered why if the Koreans and Japanese hate us so much then why are most military spouses Korean or Japanese? Sometimes it's for the money, or a ticket out of the country. Sounds stupid, but a guarantee you it's truth. Any girl can claim rape even if it was consensual. I've seen it happen multiple times in my career, even stateside. Not saying that's the case here, but certainly it shouldn't be overlooked as plausible.
While I do agree we have to many bases around the world, and while many will be closing their doors soon, don't expect the presence in Korea or Japan to go away. They are fighter bases for a reason. We don't have that many troops and weapons there to flex the American super power. The military is about saving money just like any other business, and while a lot of spending may seem irresponsible and excessive, a lot of it is not as well. A lot of living situations for military members is sub par, especially when it comes to the Army in comparison. You don't see a lot of the spending cuts we do, because you aren't directly effected by them.
Sorry for the rant, but unless you have served it's really irritating when someone bashes any military service and talks about how they know it all and how easily it could be changed for the better. This situation certainly should not be about the military presence or the actions of the smallest margin of its people. Simply those involved.
Japanese hate Americans because they lost a war and were taught, during the war, that Americans were uncultured mongrels that don't deserve much to live. Koreans hate Americans because Theodore Roosevelt got the Nobel Peace Prize for creating the Japanese occupation of Korea. An occupation that destroyed more than 95% of the trees in Korea. An occupation that changed the language to the roots. An occupation that raped and killed and forcibly enlisted millions. An occupation that taught Koreans that the entire world can tell you to fucking die and not give one fucking shit. Thank you for your service to our country, may you live happily and serve honorably. Though, your ignorance of the hatred thrust upon you is not something that is to be forgiven. Blindly wondering WHY someone hates you does nothing to alleviate the hate that glares down on you. Oh, and Koreans think they're the only cultured people on Earth. Nationalism is super huge, for a reason. I'm ethnically Korean but Nationally American.
Good thing you are partly American then, where nationalism isnt an issue whatsoever!
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On November 05 2011 21:09 Psychobabas wrote:
In the USA alone, there is a rape every 2 minutes. Yet, we never hear about these ~700 women every day...
Dont get me wrong, rape is of course awful but I find it wrong how it has seen the public eye only because it was committed by an American soldier. Like it's more important because of the rapist's identify not the actual crime itself. A sad state of affairs for all the victims.
I think it is worse if a soldier does it than if a civilian does it because a soldier is expected to be better, they are expected to protect people. Imagine if an american police officer was working there and did this people would go ape shit too. People view soldiers as protectors and when the protectors are harming people, people tend to get more upset than when some random dude we have no expectations of does because the soldier is going dark side, flipping on his perceived role. He's going from a protector to a villain, that 180 degree turn pisses people off even more because they are going to feel betrayed by it.
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On November 06 2011 05:53 MountainDewJunkie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 05:42 BabyCrusher wrote:
Active duty USAF here..
While I'll start off with saying yes, it is unfortunate that these events happened and those accused should be punished to the upmost extent of which ever jurisdiction holds custody of the case. However, the hate towards the US military, ESPECIALLY from other Americans kind of worries me.
While I'm not stationed around the region in question, I have a lot of friends who currently are and have been. Army, AF, and Marines. There are bad people everywhere and them being military personnel does not change that nor does it empower them in anyway what so ever.
Someone mentioned "What's wrong with soldiers now a days?" I ask, what do you mean?
Do you mean taking a 20 year old KID and putting him on the other side of the world away from his comfort zone, family, friends, etc for X amount of years, working non stop and constantly being pushed by his chain of command has adverse side effects that could trigger abnormal actions from an individual that under normal circumstances probably wouldn't occur?
If so, then yes I agree.
However if you meant to state that american soldiers are garbage and try to exploit, abuse, and outright ignore foreign laws and policy because they have little to no repercussions then I feel you are sadly misinformed.
An Army Private is hardly a professional in his chosen career field. He is an apprentice at best. Young and stupid just like anyone at that age.
Apologists runnin' wild all up in this bitch. So, soldiers who rape are just young, stupid, confused kids. Awesome. Who needs accountability? Looks like rapists are just misunderstood people! Your frequent references to age and rank disturb me. Exactly how old does someone have to be, or how "professional" does somehow have to be, before we can condemn them as rapists? 21 years old? 22? Ranked as Sergeants or higher? Fucking bullshit, man.
wow, just wow. hes not stating that its okay, hes saying that (as its known) pressure changes people and what do you think its like for people in the military? plush, no pressure right? I don't think you really have any idea of what really happened and i also dont think its okay for any rape to ever occur.. but really you just come off as an asshole
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BabyCrusher obviously lost perspective there for a moment with what he was saying. I'm sure he didn't mean to say that soldiers are in any way or to any extent exempt from judgement because of their hardships. What he was saying until he carelessly ended up saying that, it seems to me, was that the screening and discipline of soldiers doesn't count for that much. This is to refute the argument that not only should soldiers be held to higher standards, but statistically more should be expected of them. Their training may be counteracted by the psychological strain it was meant to prepare them for. Instead of just crucifying him for his poor choice of words, you should realize that there is still a lot of truth to what he said.
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American Soldiers should be subject to the local justice system in countries like Korea and Japan that have well established and fair justice systems for any form of criminal case.
This at the very least helps to improve relations with the locals because in my opinion what pisses them off the most is this feeling that US soldiers can do whatever the hell they want and get away with it scott free. If they were subject to trial in a Korean court rather than just an internal military investigation it would improve the public's feelings about it.
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On November 06 2011 06:27 Vindicare605 wrote:
American Soldiers should be subject to the local justice system in countries like Korea and Japan that have well established and fair justice systems for any form of criminal case.
This at the very least helps to improve relations with the locals because in my opinion what pisses them off the most is this feeling that US soldiers can do whatever the hell they want and get away with it scott free. If they were subject to trial in a Korean court rather than just an internal military investigation it would improve the public's feelings about it.
believe it or not military justice can be pretty harsh, compared to the form of justice they would get in a civilian court (being U.S citizens)
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On November 06 2011 05:53 MountainDewJunkie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 05:42 BabyCrusher wrote:
Active duty USAF here..
While I'll start off with saying yes, it is unfortunate that these events happened and those accused should be punished to the upmost extent of which ever jurisdiction holds custody of the case. However, the hate towards the US military, ESPECIALLY from other Americans kind of worries me.
While I'm not stationed around the region in question, I have a lot of friends who currently are and have been. Army, AF, and Marines. There are bad people everywhere and them being military personnel does not change that nor does it empower them in anyway what so ever.
Someone mentioned "What's wrong with soldiers now a days?" I ask, what do you mean?
Do you mean taking a 20 year old KID and putting him on the other side of the world away from his comfort zone, family, friends, etc for X amount of years, working non stop and constantly being pushed by his chain of command has adverse side effects that could trigger abnormal actions from an individual that under normal circumstances probably wouldn't occur?
If so, then yes I agree.
However if you meant to state that american soldiers are garbage and try to exploit, abuse, and outright ignore foreign laws and policy because they have little to no repercussions then I feel you are sadly misinformed.
An Army Private is hardly a professional in his chosen career field. He is an apprentice at best. Young and stupid just like anyone at that age.
Apologists runnin' wild all up in this bitch. So, soldiers who rape are just young, stupid, confused kids. Awesome. Who needs accountability? Looks like rapists are just misunderstood people! Your frequent references to age and rank disturb me. Exactly how old does someone have to be, or how "professional" does somehow have to be, before we can condemn them as rapists? 21 years old? 22? Ranked as Sergeants or higher? Fucking bullshit, man.
Though I don't agree with the tone, I have to somewhat agree with what you're saying here.
It doesn't matter what sort of hardship you're going through, or how tough it is. Rape is rape. The hatred towards such acts is fully justified because it is an enormous crime. The people who commit such acts have absolutely no justification and should be punished with the full force of the law.
However I will say that hatred towards the entire US Military based on small acts may be unjustified. Yet if the US Military is protecting said individuals who commit such crimes, then the hatred is justified. And since I believe the Korean public is angry at the military for the latter reason, I can see why the US Military is getting so much flak. And maybe they indeed should be getting criticized, because South Korea is a first-world country with respectable rules and it shouldn't have certain people who are immune to the law just because they are military personnel from the US.
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EPT
