EPTThe paradox of schools and universities in America - Page 15
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aristarchus
United States652 Posts
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On September 25 2011 00:35 ShatterZer0 wrote: The hilarious irony of it is... what he said, even with the brainless logic that you brought with it, was that America (if not referring to the country would be referring to the two continents) had more scientific and academic discoveries than any country.... which is true, the combined scientific and academic discoveries of two whole continents BETTER be greater than any one country xDDDD It depends on what you call scientific and academic discoveries, but america is only active in science since a little more than 500 years and most of it was spent with killing people (natives, each other, etc.) Most of the real groundbreaking technologies come from europe and asia, only since about 200 years does the US even matter in science, and what exactly did they develop since then? It's all based on other work (and funnily enough often developed by immigrants from other countries). Examples for groundbreaking developments not done by the US: Theory of Evolution: Britain Steel (and Iron processing): Hittites Gunpowder: Byzantium Steam Locomotives: Scotland Flying Machines: Italy (Da Vinci), Germany (Otto Lilienthal) Rockets: China Jet-powered Aircraft: Germany and Britain First Computer Programmer: Britain (Ada Lovelace) This of course says nothing about the quality of universities, but imho universities are only as good as the people that attend want it to be. As a rule of thumb: You are usually forced to attend school at young age when you don't want to go there (because there are girls and girls are icky), so you don't learn as much unless the teachers care enough about their work to make school enjoyable for the pupils (most teachers don't). You are not forced to go to universities, so you are more willing to learn. If a university is very expensive, you will be more reluctant to waste it and spend more time learning, making it "a better university", just because the people that attend have more initiative to learn. Also, 89% of all statistics are made up on the spot and 72% are based on misleading data. | ||
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Klamity
United States994 Posts
The problem isn't that it doesn't exist, it's that it doesn't exist enough. The disparity between, say, an inner-city school in Detroit and mine is enormous. Funds are poorly distributed and poorly managed. | ||
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luckybeni2
Germany1065 Posts
Those top 20 lists of universities usually get their students from all over the world and especially the american ones have a extremely high quote of non-americans. Some barely have any americans at all. | ||
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Thesidu
Sweden290 Posts
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Cel.erity
United States4890 Posts
Basically, it just comes down to capitalism. I suspect most other countries, especially ones like Finland/Sweden/Singapore, just say "Hey, let's give our kids the education they deserve" and put everything together like a neat package, spending whatever is necessary. Here, the government's attitude is more of a "What's in it for me?" | ||
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kakaman
United States1576 Posts
On September 25 2011 00:44 Jibba wrote: No, he doesn't deserve a defense. He's flat out wrong. I mean, I guess the University of Illinois Urbana–Champaign, a school with 26 Nobel laureates and the place where the internet was invented, should give up their reputation and work because they're listed as a party school. Again, I wrote that I don't think there aren't any talented students at these schools, but the concentration of talent is not comparable to the actual elite schools in America. Not saying there won't be outstanding achievements from public schools, but it is silly to compare them to actual elite institutions in America. There is a different college experience when the overwhelming majority of your peers is noteworthy, vs. 1 out of X in the student body. I've experienced this first hand, so I stand by this. I've also met some smart students who preferred going to a public university due to tuition, proximity to home, etc., but those are pretty rare cases. | ||
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Slaughter
United States20254 Posts
On September 25 2011 01:35 luckybeni2 wrote: There are many top universaties in the USA but many of the students there arent Americans and the public school system is very bad. If you are rich and live in a rich area or a go to a good privat school its fine but for the vast majority it is pretty bad. Those top 20 lists of universities usually get their students from all over the world and especially the american ones have a extremely high quote of non-americans. Some barely have any americans at all. Um I haven't heard of any universities in the U.S. where there are barely any Americans at all or even where non-americans are the majority (at least at the undergraduate level). | ||
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Slaughter
United States20254 Posts
On September 25 2011 01:46 Cel.erity wrote: I haven't read the entire thread, but the main reason for the disparity is money. The funding for the majority of American elementary-high schools is extremely low, especially compared to other countries who value their children's education higher. On the flipside, the funding for American universities is extremely high compared to other countries, the primary reason being NCAA sports. Frankly, college football and basketball are gigantic industries in America and they produce enough revenue to keep many American universities at the top. UCLA and Notre Dame are two names that come to mind that have benefitted the most from this. Basically, it just comes down to capitalism. I suspect most other countries, especially ones like Finland/Sweden/Singapore, just say "Hey, let's give our kids the education they deserve" and put everything together like a neat package, spending whatever is necessary. Here, the government's attitude is more of a "What's in it for me?" You do know that it is rare where the Athletic department actually pays for itself for a university? Most have to cover the losses of their athletic programs. | ||
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Saji
Netherlands262 Posts
This animate was adapted from a talk given at the RSA by Sir Ken Robinson, world-renowned education and creativity expert and recipient of the RSA's Benjamin Franklin award http://fora.tv/2010/10/14/Ken_Robinson_Changing_Education_Paradigms | ||
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The-Ice-Inside
Canada6 Posts
Most foreign students in America tend to do well because of a forced standard by their parents. In other words, they make their parents proud by doing well in school or their parents would be highly disappointed in them. On a side note, the government and various other institutions help students pay for their education in America. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On September 25 2011 01:20 wwiv wrote: for a high school kid, i think there is more value in being able to apply those mathematical formulas correctly rather den being able to explain the process or what it means. might be more 'functional' value as an office drone but that kind of automation hardly qualifies as knowledge. although, push comes to shove, would a little more discipline in the u.s. school system help a segment of students? certainly. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
When you compare European to European, Japanese to Japanese , Mexican to Mexican, etc American schooling is highly competitive with the rest of the world. | ||
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PenguinWithNuke
250 Posts
However, I would not find it unbelievable that inner city schools and schools of that sort lack funding, and good educators. The problem with these schools is not the students, but the lack of resources available to the kids. TL;DR American high schools are full of unmotivated little shits. Universities are not (most of the time, truer for better universities). | ||
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On September 25 2011 03:57 Saji wrote: Sir Ken Robinson is an expert in creativity, innovation, and human resources. He works with governments in Europe, Asia, and the United States, and with international agencies, Fortune 500 companies, and cultural organizations. Robinson led a national commission on creativity, education, and the economy for the UK government and was central in forming a creative- and economic-development strategy as part of the Northern Ireland peace process. Formerly, he was professor of education at the University of Warwick. This animate was adapted from a talk given at the RSA by Sir Ken Robinson, world-renowned education and creativity expert and recipient of the RSA's Benjamin Franklin award http://fora.tv/2010/10/14/Ken_Robinson_Changing_Education_Paradigms Really nice speech, thanks for the link. I like how he explains it and it's a topic bugging me since quite some years, though i see it a little differently. Schools focus too much on abstract things, memorizing stuff, etc., but they don't teach basic problem solving skills - maybe because problem solving skills can't be measured objectively and it's hard to put a grade on them. As a programmer i'm always angry when my peers can't solve simple problems and get stuck on things i need a few seconds to solve. They have far "better" education than me - i always had horrible grades at school - but they never learned how to think out of the box and solve problems from an angle they haven't learned before, eventhough that skill is the core of programming. Anyways, sorry for being off topic. | ||
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MagicGunner
United States78 Posts
Did any of your schools have those special classes where all the other failing students were essentially rounded up and baby sat for an hour? I was a really lazy student and they kept sticking me in honors classes because i did really well on tests and exams. At some point they just said "forget it" and I wound up in these really really really dumbed down classes. Some general health classes and some required courses that were taught at some near elementary level. One health class we sat around and talked for an hour or went to sleep and in physical science I got a B and I don't remember doing any homework and taking 2 or 3 quizzes which were really basic and the answers were practically given to us. Looking back, it makes me so sick. All of the children there were so ignorant, they weren't lazy like me they just simply didn't try and didn't care to try. The teachers didn't push anybody to achieve either. It was like there was sort of secret agreement where everybody decided that not getting in trouble and having a worthless piece of paper in their hands was more important than actually learning something. Those classes did help me in a way though, I got so tired of them that I transferred out to an alternative high school where I had to make up an extra year of High School. There is definitely something wrong with High Schools in this country (Not all). It's hard to put my finger on any one thing. From my experience in my area, at some point some kids, parents, and faculty just stop caring. I never saw it in Elementary School and in Middle School there weren't very many who just didn't care but somewhere in the High School environment it happens. And these kids stay in the system, there's no way to change them unless they want to change. Good teachers are there but it's so hard to help a few students when you're in charge of one or two hundred. You can't force them out either unless they do something awful. So they contributed to this atmosphere of idiocy where you didn't brag about how good your grades are, rather how bad they were. You didn't brag about how you did something witty and smart, rather how you did something stupid and asinine. | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On September 25 2011 04:52 Morfildur wrote: Really nice speech, thanks for the link. I like how he explains it and it's a topic bugging me since quite some years, though i see it a little differently. Schools focus too much on abstract things, memorizing stuff, etc., but they don't teach basic problem solving skills - maybe because problem solving skills can't be measured objectively and it's hard to put a grade on them. As a programmer i'm always angry when my peers can't solve simple problems and get stuck on things i need a few seconds to solve. They have far "better" education than me - i always had horrible grades at school - but they never learned how to think out of the box and solve problems from an angle they haven't learned before, eventhough that skill is the core of programming. Anyways, sorry for being off topic. Overspecialize and you breed in weakness. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On September 25 2011 01:25 Morfildur wrote: It depends on what you call scientific and academic discoveries, but america is only active in science since a little more than 500 years and most of it was spent with killing people (natives, each other, etc.) Most of the real groundbreaking technologies come from europe and asia, only since about 200 years does the US even matter in science, and what exactly did they develop since then? It's all based on other work (and funnily enough often developed by immigrants from other countries). Examples for groundbreaking developments not done by the US: Theory of Evolution: Britain Steel (and Iron processing): Hittites Gunpowder: Byzantium Steam Locomotives: Scotland Flying Machines: Italy (Da Vinci), Germany (Otto Lilienthal) Rockets: China Jet-powered Aircraft: Germany and Britain First Computer Programmer: Britain (Ada Lovelace) This of course says nothing about the quality of universities, but imho universities are only as good as the people that attend want it to be. As a rule of thumb: You are usually forced to attend school at young age when you don't want to go there (because there are girls and girls are icky), so you don't learn as much unless the teachers care enough about their work to make school enjoyable for the pupils (most teachers don't). You are not forced to go to universities, so you are more willing to learn. If a university is very expensive, you will be more reluctant to waste it and spend more time learning, making it "a better university", just because the people that attend have more initiative to learn. Also, 89% of all statistics are made up on the spot and 72% are based on misleading data. Is this a troll post? You say America has only been active in science for roughly 500 years. Guess what, the United States didn't exist a little more than 200 years ago. I have no idea what the point of your post is when Columbus sailed to the Americas 500 years ago and the U.S. Constitution wasn't drafted till 1789 | ||
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AutomatonOmega
United States706 Posts
By being lax in terms of enforcement and discipline, the students who want to learn will put in the work to compete and move on, the rest will become blue collar drug addicted baby factories, creating more impoverished generations of people with sub-100 IQs to serve as wage slaves for the capitalist regime. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
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