EPTThe paradox of schools and universities in America - Page 14
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sigma_x
Australia285 Posts
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kakaman
United States1576 Posts
On September 25 2011 00:15 Amber[LighT] wrote: You have an incredible inability to read. If Harvard became a listed party school would you think they don't deserve to be a good school anymore as well? Yes, because a school known for partying means not much else is getting done in the school. Not saying there won't be outstanding students or programs, but all in all it is a weak school for academics but good for other things. If you want some more empirical proof, let's look at the composition of students at U of Vermont to Cornell, which is the largest Ivy league school and so has relatively more relaxed admissions standards. Vermont: % Applicants Admitted: 70% % Admitted Who Enroll: 19% % in Top 10% of Graduating HS Class: 23% % in Top Quarter of Graduating HS Class: 61% % in Top Half of Graduating HS Class: 97% Cornell: % Applicants Admitted: 21% % Admitted Who Enroll: 46% % in Top 10% of Graduating HS Class: 87% % in Top Quarter of Graduating HS Class: 98% % in Top Half of Graduating HS Class: 100% But hey, if you want to compare Vermont to an Ivy League school because of "school traditions" and "visual appearance", go ahead. | ||
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SCPhineas
Netherlands119 Posts
1) America is by far larger than say an individual european country, and as such should have more of them. 2) I think there are a lot more private universities which do have a lot of money to spend on quality professors that do expensive research. 3) A lot of it is international. People from all over the world study and contribute to the level of the universities in America. I think those are some factors, that's probably not nearly all. | ||
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ShatterZer0
United States1843 Posts
On September 24 2011 23:39 Frieder wrote: I was wanred, because I say the truth? America is no country, this is a fact. Also the statement "America has been the site of many, many scientific and academic discoveries in its history, far more than any other country." is not true. a) America is no country. b) Propably with "America" the US were ment. But nevertheless this statement is false, he didn't bring any arguments. The hilarious irony of it is... what he said, even with the brainless logic that you brought with it, was that America (if not referring to the country would be referring to the two continents) had more scientific and academic discoveries than any country.... which is true, the combined scientific and academic discoveries of two whole continents BETTER be greater than any one country xDDDD | ||
Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On September 25 2011 00:26 kakaman wrote: Perhaps if you went to Vermont or Cornell, you'd have a better grasp of what 'empirical proof' means and how it's used.Yes, because a school known for partying means not much else is getting done in the school. Not saying there won't be outstanding students or programs, but all in all it is a weak school for academics but good for other things. If you want some more empirical proof, let's look at the composition of students at U of Vermont to Cornell, which is the largest Ivy league school and so has relatively more relaxed admissions standards. Vermont: % Applicants Admitted: 70% % Admitted Who Enroll: 19% % in Top 10% of Graduating HS Class: 23% % in Top Quarter of Graduating HS Class: 61% % in Top Half of Graduating HS Class: 97% Cornell: % Applicants Admitted: 21% % Admitted Who Enroll: 46% % in Top 10% of Graduating HS Class: 87% % in Top Quarter of Graduating HS Class: 98% % in Top Half of Graduating HS Class: 100% But hey, if you want to compare Vermont to an Ivy League school because of "school traditions" and "visual appearance", go ahead. A lot of schools with a party school reputation are actually extremely excellent. UT, Wisconsin, Illinois, OSU, etc. You're making a shitty assumption based on your own rationalizations and your own rationalizations suck. | ||
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Slaughter
United States20255 Posts
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
Yes, because a school known for partying means not much else is getting done in the school. No, he doesn't deserve a defense. He's flat out wrong. I mean, I guess the University of Illinois Urbana–Champaign, a school with 26 Nobel laureates and the place where the internet was invented, should give up their reputation and work because they're listed as a party school. | ||
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Slaughter
United States20255 Posts
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wwiv
Singapore182 Posts
1) there is a good reason why we have the best math scores, imo our text books, curriculum is far, far better designed then anything here, much of the calculus i am currently doing (at university level) i vividly remember even though i was taught about 5 years ago. same for the science. but this has in no way prepared me for the aspects of independent learning one needs to develop in order to succeed at higher education. in a sense, we are spoon fed what is important and what isn't in math and science at an early age and i think this kills creativity more or less lol 2) our humanities / liberal education aspect of education is non-existent. students are taught to memorize model essays / formats, taught to have a bank of key paragraphs and quotes to use in essays, teachers focus on the topics that will likely come out on the GCE O / A levels instead of teaching the damm whole thing 3) our national university is pretty well ranked, top 20 at least in times iirc but the issue is that there are plenty of things to say about how this ranking came about. bell curve grading (that disadvantages students graduating), the focus on foreign students % (intl students here pay the same as singaporeans provided they meet the min requirements to apply... which are quite high in their respective countries) in the end, you get a university that looks great on international exposure scores and undergrad experience on paper but actually studying there as an average local, one would develop a xenophobic outlook whereby the brightest students are foreigners pulling down your grades, overcrowding your canteens.everyone is basically thrown into a kind of academic pressure cooker. so yeah, the grass is not greener | ||
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matzisc
Belgium12 Posts
On September 24 2011 01:55 semantics wrote: They aren't all, most aren't private... Stop spouting shit out your ass UCLA,UC Berkley,University of Virginia,University of Michigan - Ann Arbor ;George Tech,UCSD,UC Davis,UCSB,UC Irvine,Penn state,Texas A&M,Virginia Tech, west point(which is as public as it gets) I'm sure given time i could think up more. that's where shit comes from tho and the op was talking about the "best" ones and those are in my idea private | ||
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micronesia
United States24805 Posts
On September 25 2011 00:49 wwiv wrote: i studied in the "high school" system of singapore before transferring to an american public university 1) there is a good reason why we have the best math scores, imo our text books, curriculum is far, far better designed then anything here, much of the calculus i am currently doing (at university level) i vividly remember even though i was taught about 5 years ago. same for the science. but this has in no way prepared me for the aspects of independent learning one needs to develop in order to succeed at higher education. in a sense, we are spoon fed what is important and what isn't in math and science at an early age and i think this kills creativity more or less lol 2) our humanities / liberal education aspect of education is non-existent. students are taught to memorize model essays / formats, taught to have a bank of key paragraphs and quotes to use in essays, teachers focus on the topics that will likely come out on the GCE O / A levels instead of teaching the damm whole thing 3) our national university is pretty well ranked, top 20 at least in times iirc but the issue is that there are plenty of things to say about how this ranking came about. bell curve grading (that disadvantages students graduating), the focus on foreign students % (intl students here pay the same as singaporeans provided they meet the min requirements to apply... which are quite high in their respective countries) in the end, you get a university that looks great on international exposure scores and undergrad experience on paper but actually studying there as an average local, one would develop a xenophobic outlook whereby the brightest students are foreigners pulling down your grades, overcrowding your canteens.everyone is basically thrown into a kind of academic pressure cooker. so yeah, the grass is not greener This is consistent with some stuff I've heard. My dad used to work for a mid-sized company designing and implementing lasers (he's an electrical engineer). The boss was supposedly rather insane and did many strange things. One thing he did which wasn't necessarily insane but got the attention of my dad was that he imported lots of recent phd's from asian countries because they were cheaper to hire than locals with similar academic credentials. My dad's experience working with them was that they were very knowledgeable in a very niche area (depending on what they were studying) but lacked adaptability and creativity to be useful in this actual work setting. His sample size was probably rather small though, but it seems explainable by your observations learning in Singapore. BTW can you indicate more specifically what is better about math curriculum there? So far all you've said is that harder math was introduced earlier... but that doesn't really demonstrate a superior curriculum by itself. | ||
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annul
United States2841 Posts
On September 24 2011 01:54 reneg wrote: Every single "____ State university" and "University of ______" is a public university. university of miami. private school. i am sure there are hundreds more. | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1603 Posts
On September 24 2011 01:45 paralleluniverse wrote: I'm not from America, but I've heard a lot about how much the American public school system sucks, both from Americans and others. However, this has always struck me as paradoxical, because America has the best universities in the world -- by far. Nearly all of the top ranked universities are American. No other country is even *remotely* close. How is it possible for America to, allegedly, have such horribly bad and ineffective schools, while having the best universities in the world? To add to this, countries like Singapore, China, Korea, and most Asian countries, are generally consider to have the best schools in the world, with the highest level of school achievements measured by standardized language, math, and science scores, yet none of these countries have a university worth a damn, I think none these even have a university ranked in the top 20. Anyone want to shred some light on this seeming paradox? Lack of good teachers, lack of decent parting, lack of school funding, lack of the child's interest all lead to our lower level schools being rated poorly, but just because that is true doesn't mean the universities have to be poor as well. For those who make it past the lower level and care to go to the next step they pay the universities for the quality that they have now. Because those universities are private they are held to a much higher standard than the poorly run government schools. | ||
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cerka
United States39 Posts
And just like that, the United States does have a brilliant primary school students. However, there is also a large number that most of the time overshadows this group. In the United States since our schooling is public and nationwide, then we factor in these everyone, not just our elite. | ||
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ScrubS
Netherlands436 Posts
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wwiv
Singapore182 Posts
On September 25 2011 00:56 micronesia wrote: BTW can you indicate more specifically what is better about math curriculum there? So far all you've said is that harder math was introduced earlier... but that doesn't really demonstrate a superior curriculum by itself. this is gonna be a little subjective but for example in differentiation, the first thing we were taught were all the formulas or the "shortcuts", students dont ever hear the phase "instantaneous rate of change" neither will they ever be quizzed on the definition but by the end of the term, they will be pretty darn good at it | ||
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micronesia
United States24805 Posts
On September 25 2011 01:05 wwiv wrote: this is gonna be a little subjective but for example in differentiation, the first thing we were taught were all the formulas or the "shortcuts", students dont ever hear the phase "instantaneous rate of change" neither will they ever be quizzed on the definition but by the end of the term, they will be pretty darn good at it Why do you think that makes for a 'better' curriculum? | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5080 Posts
Dr. Michio Kaku believes it is simply a result of the fact that America is a very strong brain sink. He may believe that the causation is simple but the details of the reason are not. | ||
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BushidoSnipr
United States910 Posts
They almost literally force you to have some sort tragic past or life changing experience. They base their admission mainly on the entrance essay(s) and they only accept kids who are "special" And plus it costs 20 years of post college debt anyway. IMO The universities are good, but theres a shitton of tradeoffs | ||
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wwiv
Singapore182 Posts
On September 25 2011 01:06 micronesia wrote: Why do you think that makes for a 'better' curriculum? for a high school kid, i think there is more value in being able to apply those mathematical formulas correctly rather den being able to explain the process or what it means. | ||
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