EPTIn short, American scholars are constantly progressing toward the integration and understanding of multiple disciplines to act as a dynamic source of knowledge.
The paradox of schools and universities in America - Page 12
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LloydRays
United States306 Posts
In short, American scholars are constantly progressing toward the integration and understanding of multiple disciplines to act as a dynamic source of knowledge. | ||
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wesbare
United States35 Posts
On September 24 2011 12:30 Defacer wrote: You're right, that's too broad a generalization. I can think of three or four profs that I greatly appreciated that would remember me as well. Bear in mind I went to an art and design school. So many of the profs I had were not engaged or even current with the trends or technical advancements in their respective specialities. They were teaching on the side for the money, basically. I learned a lot, but I know my fellow students were huge drivers in my self-education, so-to-speak. That is disappointing of some of your teachers. For obvious reasons, no one should teach for the money lol. You should teach only if you actually enjoy helping people understand concepts. One of my buddies is very intelligent (works for Spacex designing rocket components), but his ability to explain what he knew was always limited when we were young. I think he mostly just felt that his friends wouldn't understand what he was talking about, so he didn't have the patience to even try. His talent for explanation has gotten much better over the years, and now I believe he would be a good teacher, assuming he had patience and for the crap kids pull sometimes (dear God I despise plagiarism...). Maybe he should just teach college... I always pay close attention whenever someone is trying to explain the rules or strategy involved in a complex game (e.g. chess, spades, starcraft, and the list goes on). If they can explain it in an orderly and concise manner, they likely have the gift/skill of explanation. EDIT: @Defacer -- I should have mentioned that it was incredibly refreshing to see the words "you're right" at the beginning of your post. Humility is disappointingly rare, so I appreciate it wherever it appears. | ||
Klogon
MURICA15980 Posts
1) The idea that other countries with higher test scores are socially incapable and thus inferior because due to their stricter and higher scoring school systems is false. This is a stereotype that I feel as Americans we like to project onto the high achieving systems that seem to not be producing as much on the top end as us. And I feel it is a dangerous thing to feel because it is false. You might say it is more cultural, you might say it is a product of economic/academic inertia from the institutions already in place that help the US stay on top, or whatever other reason. But to say that we as a country have a better high school system merely because we think we socialize better is a joke. We need to stop giving ourselves excuses by saying "Well at least they aren't socially capable! That's why our system is better!" because that is all it is: an excuse.This is not the reason our system is better... but merely evidence of how far ahead we were that helps us stay far ahead. So although the bold, entrepreneurial nature of our society does wonders to innovate awesome things, it's a joke to assume other countries will remain behind simply because they are less social. 2) American students at the top are very exceptional and make up the engine that keeps America ahead. Many Americans, despite our lazy stereotype, are incredibly hard working. And these work horses happen to also be extremely intelligent as well as socially very capable. And many of these extremely hard working, social, and intelligent Americans group together at the top universities in America and network with each other. Think about it, the US has a huge population so taking the smartest students out and putting them into the same 20 schools will do wonders. These students synergize not only with the top talent in the US, but also with the brightest students of the world through the international students. You combine all that work ethic, networking, and intelligence with the huge market advantages of the US and you can see why America continues to innovate. In my opinion, it is off the backs of this extremely talented minority that America rises and continues to be awesome. Think Steven Jobs, Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, etc. It takes a genius or two to change an entire industry around. However, that does not mean we should not make our secondary schools significantly better. An intelligent, capable, and hard working population to make up the majority of the work force is very important to both increase this pool but also to provide the high tech and complex services the new world economy requires. If US or other international firms do not find capable workers in sufficient supply here, they will go abroad and take their jobs with them. | ||
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mprs
Canada2933 Posts
The problem is that the people who are not in this group, on average, are pretty retarded. Not everyone is working in a biology lab. The people who don't make it to University-level education (not necessarily to go to university, but getting an education good enough so that they would be successful in university) make up a large amount of people. | ||
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Steel
Japan2283 Posts
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Sinensis
United States2513 Posts
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tomtom2234
United States46 Posts
On September 24 2011 01:45 paralleluniverse wrote: I'm not from America, but I've heard a lot about how much the American public school system sucks, both from Americans and others. However, this has always struck me as paradoxical, because America has the best universities in the world -- by far. Nearly all of the top ranked universities are American. No other country is even *remotely* close. How is it possible for America to, allegedly, have such horribly bad and ineffective schools, while having the best universities in the world? To add to this, countries like Singapore, China, Korea, and most Asian countries, are generally consider to have the best schools in the world, with the highest level of school achievements measured by standardized language, math, and science scores, yet none of these countries have a university worth a damn, I think none these even have a university ranked in the top 20. Anyone want to shred some light on this seeming paradox? Our good universities are EXPENSIVE. They have the money to actually invest in good tools for educating and people who are smart enough for scholarships / have the money to afford it are actually ( I would hope anyways) really work on their education. The public education system America is really as horrid as it sounds. The non university private schools really aren't that great either. As someone who has been in both public and private I can say I actually had more of a challenge in public school. Although that wasn't much of a challenge either. EDIT: I think the major problem with the public school system in America is actually getting the students motivated. I went to a fair size high school of about 2K+ students and all I can say is the majority of students just do not care. I am currently in my senior year and people are more worried about homecoming pictures, prom, graduation pictures (some people are spending thousands of dollars on this... wtf?), and all that jazz. Even my fellow "honors / college prep" students don't really care. | ||
Falling
Canada11401 Posts
Western education has for a long time been focusing on critical thinking and problem solving rather than rote memorization. Take a position (right or wrong), look at the evidence and see if you can support it, or else modify your position. For those that learn this, it's a very transferable skill set when you go to university. The part I can't explain is the poor results in the individual classrooms, except that for a lot of students, school is their safest place to be and if there home life is like that, they really won't be performing that well. There's also a greater emphasis on multiple intelligences and teaching to the whole child. However, this sort of educational practices won't necessarily show up in a standardized test. From overseas educators- it's a lot more rote memorization, drill in the facts. This will allow one to perform very well on standardized tests. Standardized tests are meant to test these sorts of things. However, rote memory is not really the sort of skill set one needs in university. Anyone confirm or deny? | ||
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blah_blah
346 Posts
Another point is that many top scientists and academics (mostly Jewish, but not all) fled Europe leading up to and during the second World War. This led to a disproportionate amount of the best scientific talent residing in the United States. The rest is basically positive feedback; having the best scientists encourages the remaining top scientists to come to these top research centers, and so on. | ||
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itkovian
United States1763 Posts
On September 24 2011 01:48 giuocob wrote: Universities are private. America has been the site of many, many scientific and academic discoveries in its history, far more than any other country. These people drive universities and make them exceptional. Most high schools and below are public. It is well known that most anything the American government touches turns to shit, and public schooling is no exception. Well, typically I would disagree with you cause you sound pretty anti-gov, but in this I have to agree. My mom works in the public school system and it is pretty terrible. But I don't know if the answer is private schools. Just the thought of private schools scares the shit out of me because students are so easily brainwashed at such a young age that private schools would just breed ignorance and stubborn bigotry. Also, the cycle of poverty would ensue because the poor wouldn't be able to afford to send their children to school. But all in all, something about public education needs to change. | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On September 24 2011 15:02 itkovian wrote: Also, the cycle of poverty would ensue because the poor wouldn't be able to afford to send their children to school. We already spend billions of dollars on education...why couldn't that money go to poor parents? This is really the solution to the problem. Privatize the entire system and subsidize low-income parents. You will create competition, profit incentives, cost-cutting... All the things which lead to success, efficiency, and innovation in the marketplace. Until then, we will have a monopoly with no incentives to improve. Right now the incentives schools and administrators face are: Spend more money lobbying government for more money, and spend money trying to gain public support for more money. They should be focused entirely on providing a good product to the public, but they don't have to because the public is practically forced to buy the product! It's all so mind-bogglingly absurd. Nothing gets me more pissed off in politics than hearing the teacher's unions spend millions of dollars on advertisements here in California, and then tell the students they can't afford a $5 ring of paper for the class. It really gets my blood boiling. | ||
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Dr_Strange
United States80 Posts
I've seen a number of people say this, i'm trying to figure out what countries everyone's talking about when they say things like, "They don't count the poor." I've studied german for a number of years, and am trying to figure out how they'd do that. I mean, i know they have a different tiered system (Realschule vs Gymnasium vs. Fachschule) but don't know if they'd actively neglect some scores? I was saying that Germany is similar to the US, where everyone goes to school. Not that Germany doesn't include them. | ||
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v3chr0
United States856 Posts
On September 24 2011 01:48 giuocob wrote: Universities are private. America has been the site of many, many scientific and academic discoveries in its history, far more than any other country. These people drive universities and make them exceptional. Most high schools and below are public. It is well known that most anything the American government touches turns to shit, and public schooling is no exception. Well said. | ||
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theBOOCH
United States832 Posts
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ixi.genocide
United States981 Posts
On September 24 2011 01:45 paralleluniverse wrote: I'm not from America, but I've heard a lot about how much the American public school system sucks, both from Americans and others. However, this has always struck me as paradoxical, because America has the best universities in the world -- by far. Nearly all of the top ranked universities are American. No other country is even *remotely* close. How is it possible for America to, allegedly, have such horribly bad and ineffective schools, while having the best universities in the world? To add to this, countries like Singapore, China, Korea, and most Asian countries, are generally consider to have the best schools in the world, with the highest level of school achievements measured by standardized language, math, and science scores, yet none of these countries have a university worth a damn, I think none these even have a university ranked in the top 20. Anyone want to shred some light on this seeming paradox? The american public school system is ran by the government and they do a horrible job at it. The universities that you are talking about are mostly private schools.... That's about it. | ||
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QuackPocketDuck
410 Posts
wtf @ circle the right answer tests... in Soviet Russia tests DON'T love you! :p | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On September 24 2011 13:58 Steel wrote: I'm from Canada and our school system also sucks, yet we also have great Universities. It's just a huge step and most people end up doing a 'degree' in a field and enter the job market. Those who can manage the step between College and University...get good education. I disagree with this, to be honest. It's far from the universities in US and UK. | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
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Synwave
United States2803 Posts
I'm not from America, but I've heard a lot about how much the American public school system sucks Anyone want to shred some light on this seeming paradox? over, and over....and over again. Then I ponder why the OP is so confused. Then I ponder what it has to do with country. Then I reread the quotes. It's like a wild loop that just makes my brain hurt. | ||
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haduken
Australia8267 Posts
No way around it, the quality of the school comes from its students and if your students have a culture of not trying then doesn't matter how much resource or money you pour into it it won't change a thing. The most important thing about education for a student are the motivation, the quality of teachers and support of the parent which is not something you can solve by throwing more money in. You can't really force a student to learn, good teachers are hard to come by and parents well that's just down to luck... I don't think the system is broken though, just about every private school in Melbourne offers scholarship and if you really want to succeed and get ahead then you will. The big problem of course is if your family is not supportive and this is why the Asian excel because their parents are all tiger moms and dads rofl. | ||
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