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+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2011 01:11 Keone wrote:
Being someone who has worked on Wall St. in a bulge bracket investment bank, the ignorance and blind stupidity in this thread (and generally around the world) is seriously disappointing and depressing. There are reasons to be angry at Wall St. for, but so far all I've seen is ignorance and stupid logic. Wall St. has become a target and is painted as the evil regime, but little do people know that Wall St. is possibly one of the greatest reasons why the U.S. is so successful and wealthy today. It's not a "necessary evil". It's a "necessary good" that has evil people spotted around in it.
And people ask why Wall St. executives earn so much money, right? It seems like 99% of the general public have no idea what people on Wall St. do anyway, and just complain that they earn millions of dollars for doing nothing important and are just swindling money away. I'm not saying that they're not, but why the hell do people who throw a strange shaped ball across a field or a small white ball around a diamond earning so much money? Wall St.'s primary goal is to encourage INVESTMENT, because through investment, Wall St. can take a cut and earn money. However, the point is that INVESTMENT is what drives this country. Businesses, without investment, would be nothing but tiny stores never to expand except through some fluke of their own. In other words, without investment, we might be still stuck in some modern version of the wild wild west where businesses are limited by geographic location and can't expand and remain as tiny ass stores on the side of the road, with high prices leading to instability and etc etc etc.
The main problem with Wall Street is not the executives. It's the REGULATORS. Executives are people who have a very simple job; use means within the regulations to earn as much profit as possible. To the ordinary idiot, this apparently sounds like an evil goal, when in fact this is what everyone should strive to achieve - to work your hardest and produce the best work possible using everything within the rules. What is defined as "bad" and "good" in your job is simply defined by the rules.
Look at it this way, if a high-school project said you were allowed to use any resources possible as long as your input was significant, and you went to world-famous researchers and professors and helped compile the greatest high-school project ever seen with some of your own input, do you think the school teachers are going to crack down on this and complain, no matter how much the other students complain? It's grey area, and the only thing that defines "right" and "wrong" in this system are the rules. The student who did this might not have predicted that this would have sparked massive competition within the school and caused a crisis concerning student competitiveness, but it's not something we can blame the guy for, even if he did see it coming.
Of course, leading to the credit crisis in '08, some might say that somewhere along the line, someone was doing something purposely hugely wrong or evil, and this led to the crisis. Wrong. These were incremental problems that were not the fault of the people, but rather of the overall system. Imagine that student example, except compounded, and the competitiveness leads to many suicides (cough private elite high school boarding schools cough). It could lead to something huge. Possibly, the principal or whatever of the school might have been able to see the big picture. However, what is he going to say to any one person that might make it fair for everyone? He can't just dole out criticisms. He's not going to complain because the quality of work in his school is fantastic and it has a great reputation now. The only chance to correct something like this is a wide-spread regulation. And thus it is the fault of the regulators, not the students or the teachers. Or in our real case, it is not the fault of the average bankers and execs. The regulatory companies (of which there are quite a few) need to figure out their sh*t and work things out and make sure their regulations are followed.
Having said all this, there are many Wall St. execs who are out to swindle money. They obviously need to be caught and destroyed. However, this is no different from any job, especially politics. I bet politicians are right now having a field day, because they can blame all corruption and loss of money from the economy on Wall St, while they pocket and laugh at the stupid public. If you want to look for a corrupt system, you honestly don't have to look that far.
**everything I've said here is either fact or logic, so if you want to rebut anything here, make sure to actually have something logical to say.
This is funny because you're trying to justify the rampant organized crime that takes place on Wall Street. Wall street produces nothing of value to humans except money. That sounds good on paper, but consider what that actually means: They directly profit off of the actual industries that help sustain life on this planet, while producing virtually nothing in exchange. I have never once in my life met a trader/IB/Financial Executive who legitimately gave a shit about other human beings, beyond the intrinsic monetary value they could provide. I'm sure a few do exist, and you perhaps may be one, but the majority of your ilk simply want more money than the next guy. Listen I'm the last person to side with the poor and indigent, as I believe the majority of them are simply stupid and lazy. But If you honestly and truly believe that what happens on Wall Street is a "necessary good" I'm not sure you've been awake for the last 10 years. You can't tell me that every white collar fiasco has been perpetrated simply by a collation of bad apples. There's a palpable air of culpability for anyone who participles in the trading and acquisition of other peoples work, which is essentially what all traders are doing, (in a very rudimentary and abstract scene)
To clarify, I agree with you on many points, the system is inherently corrupt and most idiots running around have 0 idea what wall street is or what they do. However, your belief that wall-street is a good industry is baffling to me, as you seem to actually have a clue. I'll agree that it makes an indescribably vast amount of money for a large number of people, and the money that they make in some cases can be beneficial to the public, (albeit incredibly indirectly) I still see it as an evil industry hellbent on dividing up the entire world and exploiting absolutely every single possible resource for the benefit of a few.
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On September 25 2011 12:34 Klipsys wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2011 01:11 Keone wrote:
Being someone who has worked on Wall St. in a bulge bracket investment bank, the ignorance and blind stupidity in this thread (and generally around the world) is seriously disappointing and depressing. There are reasons to be angry at Wall St. for, but so far all I've seen is ignorance and stupid logic. Wall St. has become a target and is painted as the evil regime, but little do people know that Wall St. is possibly one of the greatest reasons why the U.S. is so successful and wealthy today. It's not a "necessary evil". It's a "necessary good" that has evil people spotted around in it.
And people ask why Wall St. executives earn so much money, right? It seems like 99% of the general public have no idea what people on Wall St. do anyway, and just complain that they earn millions of dollars for doing nothing important and are just swindling money away. I'm not saying that they're not, but why the hell do people who throw a strange shaped ball across a field or a small white ball around a diamond earning so much money? Wall St.'s primary goal is to encourage INVESTMENT, because through investment, Wall St. can take a cut and earn money. However, the point is that INVESTMENT is what drives this country. Businesses, without investment, would be nothing but tiny stores never to expand except through some fluke of their own. In other words, without investment, we might be still stuck in some modern version of the wild wild west where businesses are limited by geographic location and can't expand and remain as tiny ass stores on the side of the road, with high prices leading to instability and etc etc etc.
The main problem with Wall Street is not the executives. It's the REGULATORS. Executives are people who have a very simple job; use means within the regulations to earn as much profit as possible. To the ordinary idiot, this apparently sounds like an evil goal, when in fact this is what everyone should strive to achieve - to work your hardest and produce the best work possible using everything within the rules. What is defined as "bad" and "good" in your job is simply defined by the rules.
Look at it this way, if a high-school project said you were allowed to use any resources possible as long as your input was significant, and you went to world-famous researchers and professors and helped compile the greatest high-school project ever seen with some of your own input, do you think the school teachers are going to crack down on this and complain, no matter how much the other students complain? It's grey area, and the only thing that defines "right" and "wrong" in this system are the rules. The student who did this might not have predicted that this would have sparked massive competition within the school and caused a crisis concerning student competitiveness, but it's not something we can blame the guy for, even if he did see it coming.
Of course, leading to the credit crisis in '08, some might say that somewhere along the line, someone was doing something purposely hugely wrong or evil, and this led to the crisis. Wrong. These were incremental problems that were not the fault of the people, but rather of the overall system. Imagine that student example, except compounded, and the competitiveness leads to many suicides (cough private elite high school boarding schools cough). It could lead to something huge. Possibly, the principal or whatever of the school might have been able to see the big picture. However, what is he going to say to any one person that might make it fair for everyone? He can't just dole out criticisms. He's not going to complain because the quality of work in his school is fantastic and it has a great reputation now. The only chance to correct something like this is a wide-spread regulation. And thus it is the fault of the regulators, not the students or the teachers. Or in our real case, it is not the fault of the average bankers and execs. The regulatory companies (of which there are quite a few) need to figure out their sh*t and work things out and make sure their regulations are followed.
Having said all this, there are many Wall St. execs who are out to swindle money. They obviously need to be caught and destroyed. However, this is no different from any job, especially politics. I bet politicians are right now having a field day, because they can blame all corruption and loss of money from the economy on Wall St, while they pocket and laugh at the stupid public. If you want to look for a corrupt system, you honestly don't have to look that far.
**everything I've said here is either fact or logic, so if you want to rebut anything here, make sure to actually have something logical to say. This is funny because you're trying to justify the rampant organized crime that takes place on Wall Street. Wall street produces nothing of value to humans except money. That sounds good on paper, but consider what that actually means: They directly profit off of the actual industries that help sustain life on this planet, while producing virtually nothing in exchange. I have never once in my life met a trader/IB/Financial Executive who legitimately gave a shit about other human beings, beyond the intrinsic monetary value they could provide. I'm sure a few do exist, and you perhaps may be one, but the majority of your ilk simply want more money than the next guy. Listen I'm the last person to side with the poor and indigent, as I believe the majority of them are simply stupid and lazy. But If you honestly and truly believe that what happens on Wall Street is a "necessary good" I'm not sure you've been awake for the last 10 years. You can't tell me that every white collar fiasco has been perpetrated simply by a collation of bad apples. There's a palpable air of culpability for anyone who participles in the trading and acquisition of other peoples work, which is essentially what all traders are doing, (in a very rudimentary and abstract scene) To clarify, I agree with you on many points, the system is inherently corrupt and most idiots running around have 0 idea what wall street is or what they do. However, your belief that wall-street is a good industry is baffling to me, as you seem to actually have a clue. I'll agree that it makes an indescribably vast amount of money for a large number of people, and the money that they make in some cases can be beneficial to the public, (albeit incredibly indirectly) I still see it as an evil industry hellbent on dividing up the entire world and exploiting absolutely every single possible resource for the benefit of a few.
So funding new ventures is creating "nothing but money"?
Firms need capital, that`s why you have stock exchanges.
Stock Exchanges also helps farmers and others sellers of raw materials to stabilize their incomes over time by reducing risk.
Just some examples off the top of my head of why you are wrong on that.
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On September 25 2011 17:36 Grend wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2011 12:34 Klipsys wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2011 01:11 Keone wrote:
Being someone who has worked on Wall St. in a bulge bracket investment bank, the ignorance and blind stupidity in this thread (and generally around the world) is seriously disappointing and depressing. There are reasons to be angry at Wall St. for, but so far all I've seen is ignorance and stupid logic. Wall St. has become a target and is painted as the evil regime, but little do people know that Wall St. is possibly one of the greatest reasons why the U.S. is so successful and wealthy today. It's not a "necessary evil". It's a "necessary good" that has evil people spotted around in it.
And people ask why Wall St. executives earn so much money, right? It seems like 99% of the general public have no idea what people on Wall St. do anyway, and just complain that they earn millions of dollars for doing nothing important and are just swindling money away. I'm not saying that they're not, but why the hell do people who throw a strange shaped ball across a field or a small white ball around a diamond earning so much money? Wall St.'s primary goal is to encourage INVESTMENT, because through investment, Wall St. can take a cut and earn money. However, the point is that INVESTMENT is what drives this country. Businesses, without investment, would be nothing but tiny stores never to expand except through some fluke of their own. In other words, without investment, we might be still stuck in some modern version of the wild wild west where businesses are limited by geographic location and can't expand and remain as tiny ass stores on the side of the road, with high prices leading to instability and etc etc etc.
The main problem with Wall Street is not the executives. It's the REGULATORS. Executives are people who have a very simple job; use means within the regulations to earn as much profit as possible. To the ordinary idiot, this apparently sounds like an evil goal, when in fact this is what everyone should strive to achieve - to work your hardest and produce the best work possible using everything within the rules. What is defined as "bad" and "good" in your job is simply defined by the rules.
Look at it this way, if a high-school project said you were allowed to use any resources possible as long as your input was significant, and you went to world-famous researchers and professors and helped compile the greatest high-school project ever seen with some of your own input, do you think the school teachers are going to crack down on this and complain, no matter how much the other students complain? It's grey area, and the only thing that defines "right" and "wrong" in this system are the rules. The student who did this might not have predicted that this would have sparked massive competition within the school and caused a crisis concerning student competitiveness, but it's not something we can blame the guy for, even if he did see it coming.
Of course, leading to the credit crisis in '08, some might say that somewhere along the line, someone was doing something purposely hugely wrong or evil, and this led to the crisis. Wrong. These were incremental problems that were not the fault of the people, but rather of the overall system. Imagine that student example, except compounded, and the competitiveness leads to many suicides (cough private elite high school boarding schools cough). It could lead to something huge. Possibly, the principal or whatever of the school might have been able to see the big picture. However, what is he going to say to any one person that might make it fair for everyone? He can't just dole out criticisms. He's not going to complain because the quality of work in his school is fantastic and it has a great reputation now. The only chance to correct something like this is a wide-spread regulation. And thus it is the fault of the regulators, not the students or the teachers. Or in our real case, it is not the fault of the average bankers and execs. The regulatory companies (of which there are quite a few) need to figure out their sh*t and work things out and make sure their regulations are followed.
Having said all this, there are many Wall St. execs who are out to swindle money. They obviously need to be caught and destroyed. However, this is no different from any job, especially politics. I bet politicians are right now having a field day, because they can blame all corruption and loss of money from the economy on Wall St, while they pocket and laugh at the stupid public. If you want to look for a corrupt system, you honestly don't have to look that far.
**everything I've said here is either fact or logic, so if you want to rebut anything here, make sure to actually have something logical to say. This is funny because you're trying to justify the rampant organized crime that takes place on Wall Street. Wall street produces nothing of value to humans except money. That sounds good on paper, but consider what that actually means: They directly profit off of the actual industries that help sustain life on this planet, while producing virtually nothing in exchange. I have never once in my life met a trader/IB/Financial Executive who legitimately gave a shit about other human beings, beyond the intrinsic monetary value they could provide. I'm sure a few do exist, and you perhaps may be one, but the majority of your ilk simply want more money than the next guy. Listen I'm the last person to side with the poor and indigent, as I believe the majority of them are simply stupid and lazy. But If you honestly and truly believe that what happens on Wall Street is a "necessary good" I'm not sure you've been awake for the last 10 years. You can't tell me that every white collar fiasco has been perpetrated simply by a collation of bad apples. There's a palpable air of culpability for anyone who participles in the trading and acquisition of other peoples work, which is essentially what all traders are doing, (in a very rudimentary and abstract scene) To clarify, I agree with you on many points, the system is inherently corrupt and most idiots running around have 0 idea what wall street is or what they do. However, your belief that wall-street is a good industry is baffling to me, as you seem to actually have a clue. I'll agree that it makes an indescribably vast amount of money for a large number of people, and the money that they make in some cases can be beneficial to the public, (albeit incredibly indirectly) I still see it as an evil industry hellbent on dividing up the entire world and exploiting absolutely every single possible resource for the benefit of a few. So funding new ventures is creating "nothing but money"? Firms need capital, that`s why you have stock exchanges. Stock Exchanges also helps farmers and others sellers of raw materials to stabilize their incomes over time by reducing risk. Just some examples off the top of my head of why you are wrong on that.
The idea of wall street being good or bad is faulty. Wall street is amoral, where the mandate is to make money. Moral or immoral actions that come out of wall street are made by individuals, not the system.
The purpose of these institutions is so many that it shocks me to think that you (Klipsys) think they don't do anything.
They are the source of financing for new and growth companies, which would not get off the ground if the funding was not there as product development and distribution would take longer, and would be less competitive against big, establish companies (increasing the monopolistic power of companies like Microsoft, and ultimately punishing consumers). It provides liquidity to people looking to sell their interest in a company so that they have more financial freedom, and the potential to divert those funds if they need to. It allows farmers to hedge themselves against weather and price risk, and provides avenues for people to effectively insure themselves and their businesses who would otherwise be helpless to forces outside of their control. It helps facilitate foreign investment into the U.S., creating jobs and wealth for Americans.
Like Grend, those are just what come off the top of my head. There are so, so many more.
Edit. Rereading your comment I don't actually understand how someone comes to think such things. You realize you say nothing of substance, but just make broad, sweeping generalizations? What in the last 10 years should we "open our eyes to" as being proof of the evilness of wall street? Why is anyone who wants to earn more money through investing culpable for...whatever it is you think they're culpable for? If you don't have extremely well thought out, logical answers for these questions...perhaps you need to reflect on why you're actually upset.
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On September 25 2011 18:22 Gnial wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2011 17:36 Grend wrote:On September 25 2011 12:34 Klipsys wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2011 01:11 Keone wrote:
Being someone who has worked on Wall St. in a bulge bracket investment bank, the ignorance and blind stupidity in this thread (and generally around the world) is seriously disappointing and depressing. There are reasons to be angry at Wall St. for, but so far all I've seen is ignorance and stupid logic. Wall St. has become a target and is painted as the evil regime, but little do people know that Wall St. is possibly one of the greatest reasons why the U.S. is so successful and wealthy today. It's not a "necessary evil". It's a "necessary good" that has evil people spotted around in it.
And people ask why Wall St. executives earn so much money, right? It seems like 99% of the general public have no idea what people on Wall St. do anyway, and just complain that they earn millions of dollars for doing nothing important and are just swindling money away. I'm not saying that they're not, but why the hell do people who throw a strange shaped ball across a field or a small white ball around a diamond earning so much money? Wall St.'s primary goal is to encourage INVESTMENT, because through investment, Wall St. can take a cut and earn money. However, the point is that INVESTMENT is what drives this country. Businesses, without investment, would be nothing but tiny stores never to expand except through some fluke of their own. In other words, without investment, we might be still stuck in some modern version of the wild wild west where businesses are limited by geographic location and can't expand and remain as tiny ass stores on the side of the road, with high prices leading to instability and etc etc etc.
The main problem with Wall Street is not the executives. It's the REGULATORS. Executives are people who have a very simple job; use means within the regulations to earn as much profit as possible. To the ordinary idiot, this apparently sounds like an evil goal, when in fact this is what everyone should strive to achieve - to work your hardest and produce the best work possible using everything within the rules. What is defined as "bad" and "good" in your job is simply defined by the rules.
Look at it this way, if a high-school project said you were allowed to use any resources possible as long as your input was significant, and you went to world-famous researchers and professors and helped compile the greatest high-school project ever seen with some of your own input, do you think the school teachers are going to crack down on this and complain, no matter how much the other students complain? It's grey area, and the only thing that defines "right" and "wrong" in this system are the rules. The student who did this might not have predicted that this would have sparked massive competition within the school and caused a crisis concerning student competitiveness, but it's not something we can blame the guy for, even if he did see it coming.
Of course, leading to the credit crisis in '08, some might say that somewhere along the line, someone was doing something purposely hugely wrong or evil, and this led to the crisis. Wrong. These were incremental problems that were not the fault of the people, but rather of the overall system. Imagine that student example, except compounded, and the competitiveness leads to many suicides (cough private elite high school boarding schools cough). It could lead to something huge. Possibly, the principal or whatever of the school might have been able to see the big picture. However, what is he going to say to any one person that might make it fair for everyone? He can't just dole out criticisms. He's not going to complain because the quality of work in his school is fantastic and it has a great reputation now. The only chance to correct something like this is a wide-spread regulation. And thus it is the fault of the regulators, not the students or the teachers. Or in our real case, it is not the fault of the average bankers and execs. The regulatory companies (of which there are quite a few) need to figure out their sh*t and work things out and make sure their regulations are followed.
Having said all this, there are many Wall St. execs who are out to swindle money. They obviously need to be caught and destroyed. However, this is no different from any job, especially politics. I bet politicians are right now having a field day, because they can blame all corruption and loss of money from the economy on Wall St, while they pocket and laugh at the stupid public. If you want to look for a corrupt system, you honestly don't have to look that far.
**everything I've said here is either fact or logic, so if you want to rebut anything here, make sure to actually have something logical to say. This is funny because you're trying to justify the rampant organized crime that takes place on Wall Street. Wall street produces nothing of value to humans except money. That sounds good on paper, but consider what that actually means: They directly profit off of the actual industries that help sustain life on this planet, while producing virtually nothing in exchange. I have never once in my life met a trader/IB/Financial Executive who legitimately gave a shit about other human beings, beyond the intrinsic monetary value they could provide. I'm sure a few do exist, and you perhaps may be one, but the majority of your ilk simply want more money than the next guy. Listen I'm the last person to side with the poor and indigent, as I believe the majority of them are simply stupid and lazy. But If you honestly and truly believe that what happens on Wall Street is a "necessary good" I'm not sure you've been awake for the last 10 years. You can't tell me that every white collar fiasco has been perpetrated simply by a collation of bad apples. There's a palpable air of culpability for anyone who participles in the trading and acquisition of other peoples work, which is essentially what all traders are doing, (in a very rudimentary and abstract scene) To clarify, I agree with you on many points, the system is inherently corrupt and most idiots running around have 0 idea what wall street is or what they do. However, your belief that wall-street is a good industry is baffling to me, as you seem to actually have a clue. I'll agree that it makes an indescribably vast amount of money for a large number of people, and the money that they make in some cases can be beneficial to the public, (albeit incredibly indirectly) I still see it as an evil industry hellbent on dividing up the entire world and exploiting absolutely every single possible resource for the benefit of a few. So funding new ventures is creating "nothing but money"? Firms need capital, that`s why you have stock exchanges. Stock Exchanges also helps farmers and others sellers of raw materials to stabilize their incomes over time by reducing risk. Just some examples off the top of my head of why you are wrong on that. The idea of wall street being good or bad is faulty. Wall street is amoral, where the mandate is to make money. Moral or immoral actions that come out of wall street are made by individuals, not the system. The purpose of these institutions is so many that it shocks me to think that you (Klipsys) think they don't do anything. They are the source of financing for new and growth companies, which would not get off the ground if the funding was not there as product development and distribution would take longer, and would be less competitive against big, establish companies (increasing the monopolistic power of companies like Microsoft, and ultimately punishing consumers). It provides liquidity to people looking to sell their interest in a company so that they have more financial freedom, and the potential to divert those funds if they need to. It allows farmers to hedge themselves against weather and price risk, and provides avenues for people to effectively insure themselves and their businesses who would otherwise be helpless to forces outside of their control. It helps facilitate foreign investment into the U.S., creating jobs and wealth for Americans. Like Grend, those are just what come off the top of my head. There are so, so many more. Edit. Rereading your comment I don't actually understand how someone comes to think such things. You realize you say nothing of substance, but just make broad, sweeping generalizations? What in the last 10 years should we "open our eyes to" as being proof of the evilness of wall street? Why is anyone who wants to earn more money through investing culpable for...whatever it is you think they're culpable for? If you don't have extremely well thought out, logical answers for these questions...perhaps you need to reflect on why you're actually upset.
It's crazy how misinformed people can be.... They look like plumbers judging on what's wrong with rocket science -.-
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People should really learn about the financial crisis before they get all uppity and waste their time chasing ghosts on the streets of wall street...
There were so many forces in effect, from every single part of the economy, that caused the bubbles(housing and credit), the crash, and delayed the recovery. An economics professor from stanford, for instance, says that if the government hadn't lowered interest rates in 2002-2004 to deal with the early 2000's recession, then the whole bubble issue would have been avoided and so many of the MBS's and CDO's wouldn't have gone toxic, and people wouldn't have lost money, jobs, etc. John B Taylor, Professor of Economics at Stanford, author of the book "Getting Off Track: How Government Actions and Interventions Caused, Prolonged and Worsened the Financial Crisis"
But even if we ignore that, why blame wallstreet? The worldwide funds for investing in fixed-income assets doubled between 2000 and 2006 up to $70 TRILLION due to the money China has made selling products to the U.S., and due to Middle East oil revenues. Meanwhile the number of things to invest in didn't increase at a similar pace - some sort of bubble was bound to form somewhere just based on supply of fixed-income assets increasing at a slower rate than demand for fixed-income assets. Do we blame wallstreet for that? Or should we blame China and the middle-east for investing all their money in the U.S.? Or do we blame the U.S. for being the (formerly) best place to invest your money, drawing all the funds into their fixed-income asset sector?
You can blame wall-street for creating CDOs and MBSs from sub-prime mortgages, or you can blame the banks for selling sub-prime mortgages to the CDOs and MBSs, or you can blame the government for failing utterly to regulate the private investing sector, or the credit agencies for mistakenly rating CDOs and MBSs with subprime mortgages as safe, or investors for overly trusting credit agencies...at the end of the day the network of companies/trusts that had investments in companies/trust that had investments in companies/trusts was just so complicated that investors likely were unable to chart just what proportion of their investment portfolios were in subprime or variable-rate mortgages. Never mind that there are 50 other issues that popped up, such as low banking reserve ratios, great hordes of financially irresponsible property owners, and the government mischaracterizing the initial problem as a liquidity crisis instead of a counter party crisis. (according to some, others say it was actually too weak of a response to a liquidity crisis - and I'm talking about pre-tarp, there were several actions the government took to avert disaster starting in 2007)
I bet you most of these protesters don't even know what a CDO is...which isn't surprising, given that regulators and creditors even had trouble with the complicated ones that were created to satisfy the demand in the rapidly growing fixed-income asset market.
If your hate for wall-street is based on the financial crisis - save yourself some energy and learn a little bit before you waste your time and energy protesting it and down talking it. I still don't understand enough to have a very strong opinion and I've spent hundreds of hours researching it. Most of everyone is still trying to figuring it all out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_financial_crisis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-2000s_recession
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subprime_mortgage_crisis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subprime_lending
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collateralized_debt_obligation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortgage-backed_security
Here is some reading to get started on. Now, while its mostly good, there are some errors on these pages...so read everything with a grain of salt. (Its not surprising there are errors since there is about 10,000 pages of reading there alone)
Of course, you probably won't understand most of what is being said there so you will have to read the links to other items as well.
Until you have at least invested a sizeable amount of time into this, you shouldn't be giving opinions on the financial crisis, or the character of wall street as a result of the financial crisis.
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Wait a minute are these not the folks who are yelling about how police have put people in critical condition to get attention(when no such event happens)?
The people who asked for names of people arrested so they could flood the courtsystem with filings from lawyers?
The people who from the looks of the pictures and videos appear to have never had to do any kind of work accept decide rather they should catch a movie or blog about how hard they have it and how corrupt rich people are?
Excuse me if I am wrong but these guys yeah they have no idea what or why they are protesting accept someone told them to do so because this is what they do. The people doing this now will be where I live next year to protest the Republican convention. Why? Not sure, I guess everyone needs a hobby.
The more I read about this the more laughable it becomes to me.
You do realize Wall Street is not capable of solving all of the worlds problems correct? Wall Street being good or bad will not:
End hunger(hunger so long as you ignore them eating fast food as that's not food. It's umm evil)
Make everyone equally miserable(Who the hell wants to be miserable so they feel better?)
Instantly create jobs and wealth for everyone.
Solve Global Warming.
Bring equality to the working man.(Whatever you take that to mean)
You might as well be yelling at the President about not raising or lowering taxes, or a tree as to why it's raining.
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On September 25 2011 12:34 Klipsys wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2011 01:11 Keone wrote:
Being someone who has worked on Wall St. in a bulge bracket investment bank, the ignorance and blind stupidity in this thread (and generally around the world) is seriously disappointing and depressing. There are reasons to be angry at Wall St. for, but so far all I've seen is ignorance and stupid logic. Wall St. has become a target and is painted as the evil regime, but little do people know that Wall St. is possibly one of the greatest reasons why the U.S. is so successful and wealthy today. It's not a "necessary evil". It's a "necessary good" that has evil people spotted around in it.
And people ask why Wall St. executives earn so much money, right? It seems like 99% of the general public have no idea what people on Wall St. do anyway, and just complain that they earn millions of dollars for doing nothing important and are just swindling money away. I'm not saying that they're not, but why the hell do people who throw a strange shaped ball across a field or a small white ball around a diamond earning so much money? Wall St.'s primary goal is to encourage INVESTMENT, because through investment, Wall St. can take a cut and earn money. However, the point is that INVESTMENT is what drives this country. Businesses, without investment, would be nothing but tiny stores never to expand except through some fluke of their own. In other words, without investment, we might be still stuck in some modern version of the wild wild west where businesses are limited by geographic location and can't expand and remain as tiny ass stores on the side of the road, with high prices leading to instability and etc etc etc.
The main problem with Wall Street is not the executives. It's the REGULATORS. Executives are people who have a very simple job; use means within the regulations to earn as much profit as possible. To the ordinary idiot, this apparently sounds like an evil goal, when in fact this is what everyone should strive to achieve - to work your hardest and produce the best work possible using everything within the rules. What is defined as "bad" and "good" in your job is simply defined by the rules.
Look at it this way, if a high-school project said you were allowed to use any resources possible as long as your input was significant, and you went to world-famous researchers and professors and helped compile the greatest high-school project ever seen with some of your own input, do you think the school teachers are going to crack down on this and complain, no matter how much the other students complain? It's grey area, and the only thing that defines "right" and "wrong" in this system are the rules. The student who did this might not have predicted that this would have sparked massive competition within the school and caused a crisis concerning student competitiveness, but it's not something we can blame the guy for, even if he did see it coming.
Of course, leading to the credit crisis in '08, some might say that somewhere along the line, someone was doing something purposely hugely wrong or evil, and this led to the crisis. Wrong. These were incremental problems that were not the fault of the people, but rather of the overall system. Imagine that student example, except compounded, and the competitiveness leads to many suicides (cough private elite high school boarding schools cough). It could lead to something huge. Possibly, the principal or whatever of the school might have been able to see the big picture. However, what is he going to say to any one person that might make it fair for everyone? He can't just dole out criticisms. He's not going to complain because the quality of work in his school is fantastic and it has a great reputation now. The only chance to correct something like this is a wide-spread regulation. And thus it is the fault of the regulators, not the students or the teachers. Or in our real case, it is not the fault of the average bankers and execs. The regulatory companies (of which there are quite a few) need to figure out their sh*t and work things out and make sure their regulations are followed.
Having said all this, there are many Wall St. execs who are out to swindle money. They obviously need to be caught and destroyed. However, this is no different from any job, especially politics. I bet politicians are right now having a field day, because they can blame all corruption and loss of money from the economy on Wall St, while they pocket and laugh at the stupid public. If you want to look for a corrupt system, you honestly don't have to look that far.
**everything I've said here is either fact or logic, so if you want to rebut anything here, make sure to actually have something logical to say. This is funny because you're trying to justify the rampant organized crime that takes place on Wall Street. Wall street produces nothing of value to humans except money. That sounds good on paper, but consider what that actually means: They directly profit off of the actual industries that help sustain life on this planet, while producing virtually nothing in exchange. I have never once in my life met a trader/IB/Financial Executive who legitimately gave a shit about other human beings, beyond the intrinsic monetary value they could provide. I'm sure a few do exist, and you perhaps may be one, but the majority of your ilk simply want more money than the next guy. Listen I'm the last person to side with the poor and indigent, as I believe the majority of them are simply stupid and lazy. But If you honestly and truly believe that what happens on Wall Street is a "necessary good" I'm not sure you've been awake for the last 10 years. You can't tell me that every white collar fiasco has been perpetrated simply by a collation of bad apples. There's a palpable air of culpability for anyone who participles in the trading and acquisition of other peoples work, which is essentially what all traders are doing, (in a very rudimentary and abstract scene) To clarify, I agree with you on many points, the system is inherently corrupt and most idiots running around have 0 idea what wall street is or what they do. However, your belief that wall-street is a good industry is baffling to me, as you seem to actually have a clue. I'll agree that it makes an indescribably vast amount of money for a large number of people, and the money that they make in some cases can be beneficial to the public, (albeit incredibly indirectly) I still see it as an evil industry hellbent on dividing up the entire world and exploiting absolutely every single possible resource for the benefit of a few.
How does investing in companies produce nothing of value? When you profit off a company you have invested in you are part of the production. You provided part of the capital that made that production possible. Why do you think these productive industries allow these people on Wall Street to profit off them? It's a mutually beneficial relationship.
How are resources being "exploited" to the benefit of only a few? How is that even possible? Are all the workers slaves? Do the products never reach any masses who benefit from them?
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Looking at the protestors makes me side with the police. It's all a bunch of underfed hipsters trying to make a statement. These people care just as little for the actual "justice" they're trying to deliver, they're just trying to be edgy.
But then again, it's very hard for people who dress respectably to actually take the effort to protest anything. Because they all have jobs to attend.
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It probably isn't the wall streets fault I agree, they just seek to make as much money as the next guy. Put the blame on the government instead for not regulating the investment business.
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On September 25 2011 19:33 KaiserJohan wrote:
It probably isn't the wall streets fault I agree, they just seek to make as much money as the next guy. Put the blame on the government instead for not regulating the investment business.
No, put the blame on government for regulating the investment business.
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I remember when I left this thread people were just saying people on Wall St. have no souls. At least some people with senses and a realistic view of the world opted to show up.
Klipsys, I would really like to know what the "rampant corruption" and the execs having 0 idea what is going on. They got to those places through work, and a bit of luck.
Also, I struggle with the idea that Wall St. is organized crime. People make big bucks in an environment where you can lose it all in a day. They may not have non-financial motives to invest in companies, but if they couldn't turn a profit, everyone in the deal would be fired anyways. Wall St. has the money that companies need, and if it shut down, a lot of innovation would go down with it. Wall St. is more educated, computer-assisted gambling than crime.
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On September 25 2011 19:33 OsoVega wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2011 19:33 KaiserJohan wrote:
It probably isn't the wall streets fault I agree, they just seek to make as much money as the next guy. Put the blame on the government instead for not regulating the investment business. No, put the blame on government for regulating the investment business.
How would unregulated investment be a good thing?
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While I appreciate the "oil" Wall Street brings to the "machine" of the economy, there are some things I have serious problems with. First, automatic trading. Using computers as the sole deciders in the exchange of goods, especially at the current level is incredibly irresponsible and stinks of easy money by system abuse. Second, compensation overall feels really high compared to other sectors. Combine this with the fact that they're handling most of the money makes it feel like, even in bad times, they can skim enough off the top to not feel it in their pocketbook like many others.
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As someone who works in BB banks, i also find this totally hilarious
But put to point, regular people simply don't understand the financial industry. I've tried many a times to explain some or parts of it to my friends, and no matter how well reasoned or thought out my explanation is, they still find a way to fuck up their logic and declare it evil
Honestly, its not my fault that people don't understand what investment banks do, or how they work.
I could come up with a million reasons why they are absolutely vital and the driving force of the modern world, why they are the reason we have first world countries in the first place.
They provide such an incredibly useful and fundamental service, every country in the world relies on them to perform their job.
Some people get paid a lot in IB. Yes, execs (some execs) and traders, people working in IDB, get paid a lot. Do you know why they get paid a lot? Because they slave their ass away working 20+ hours a day, 120 hours a week, to get the job done. They don't sleep - sleep is for people who want to fail.
Traders spend every waking day of their lives doing a service that requires an immeasurable amount of stress and logic, performing a task that is so utterly vital to a modern economy, yet the number of people that are capable of performing this job are so miniscule as an average person would totally fuck it up.
People that work hard and are talented get paid well. Its a meritocratic system
Unlike say, the public sector system in the UK - where you get paid well regardless of whether you work hard or not. In IB, if you don't work hard, you get fired, you get paid nothing.
In the public sector they produce the most ridiculous pensions where not only is their pay disproportionate to the effort and good produced, final salary pension is EVEN MORE disproportionate to their input (lol train drivers). People earning an average wage end up with a pension worth over £4-5 MILLION. This is of course, a ponzi scheme, and totally unsustainable, and is one of the biggest drains to our economy right now. These are people who don't input the amount they take out from the economy.
Every person who works in an IB gets paid exactly the amount he deserves and what he works for. A large portion of these people, who work harder and smarter than any social or industrial group in the world, have to pay the most extreme taxes to fund people that produce less input into the economy than them.
Now, i pay taxes. So do IB's - it is natural that rich people end up paying more taxes than poor people.
Some people in the public sector provide a service that is so useful to the economy, we give them additional breaks that may not necessarily reflect the effort put in, because we need these people so much. For example, teachers, doctors, nurses etc.
I could go on and on about unjustices in the system etc.etc.
The thing is, unlike many of you, i work in the sector, and i spent time using reason and logic to understand the problem in the first place.
But hey go ahead, be angry. There are many reasons why you should be angry at wall street. But don't give me shit about big bonuses and salaries until you work 120 hours a week. The number of people that are just jealous of people that work harder than them is totally hilarious lol
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On September 25 2011 19:52 aksfjh wrote:
While I appreciate the "oil" Wall Street brings to the "machine" of the economy, there are some things I have serious problems with. First, automatic trading. Using computers as the sole deciders in the exchange of goods, especially at the current level is incredibly irresponsible and stinks of easy money by system abuse. Second, compensation overall feels really high compared to other sectors. Combine this with the fact that they're handling most of the money makes it feel like, even in bad times, they can skim enough off the top to not feel it in their pocketbook like many others.
How is compensation in one sector being high relative to other sectors an indication of a problem? Doesn't it just seem intuitive that if one sector makes way more money than another sector, then the people in that sector should make more money? And who cares if they're handling most of the money...is it your money they're handling? And if it is your money that they're handling, such as the money you've deposited in a bank...what does executive compensation have to do with anything? You have your contract with the bank that isn't affected by executive compensation. Or if you own shares of a company, you have the power to vote if you disagree with executive compensation. There is a remedy in law called the "Oppression Remedy" which minority shareholders can take if they believe majority shareholders are screwing them - such as by overpaying executives, so you have a degree of control. For this reason, and others, they don't pay executives enough money to jeopardize the company so no contracts or investments you have with the company can be legally jeopardized by executive compensation - if a company goes under, it is for reasons other than executive compensation. So since you are in no way affected by executive compensation...and the size of the compensation is simply determined by supply and demand...why do you care? I know the reason people get all pissed about athletes huge salaries is jealousy or some notion of money being linked to morality - both of which are flawed viewpoints.
edit: if the person above me had just posted earlier I could have saved some time writing this, haha
As for automatic trading, yeah, there are definitely some problems with that. But they do serve many important purposes which aren't bad. For instance, computer programs which do arbitrage trading only help to provide an accurate valuation for stocks. It reduces stock volatility. I'm not sure if this is much of a redeeming quality, but the computers are getting better and better at dealing with market spikes - fail safes are getting better and such. The benefits are noticed when something weird happens, and the programs are triggered to stop trading. Liquidity provided by these programs suffers badly...but then you notice the cons, as the failsafes usually trigger a halt in automatic trading, which has the effect of increasing stock volatility by amplifying the effects of a stock drop by reducing liquidity significantly. Certainly not perfect. The main question to ask is: is it worse than human trading and human error? I'm not actually sure...
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+ Show Spoiler [Keone (Former Wall St)] +Being someone who has worked on Wall St. in a bulge bracket investment bank, the ignorance and blind stupidity in this thread (and generally around the world) is seriously disappointing and depressing. There are reasons to be angry at Wall St. for, but so far all I've seen is ignorance and stupid logic. Wall St. has become a target and is painted as the evil regime, but little do people know that Wall St. is possibly one of the greatest reasons why the U.S. is so successful and wealthy today. It's not a "necessary evil". It's a "necessary good" that has evil people spotted around in it.
And people ask why Wall St. executives earn so much money, right? It seems like 99% of the general public have no idea what people on Wall St. do anyway, and just complain that they earn millions of dollars for doing nothing important and are just swindling money away. I'm not saying that they're not, but why the hell do people who throw a strange shaped ball across a field or a small white ball around a diamond earning so much money? Wall St.'s primary goal is to encourage INVESTMENT, because through investment, Wall St. can take a cut and earn money. However, the point is that INVESTMENT is what drives this country. Businesses, without investment, would be nothing but tiny stores never to expand except through some fluke of their own. In other words, without investment, we might be still stuck in some modern version of the wild wild west where businesses are limited by geographic location and can't expand and remain as tiny ass stores on the side of the road, with high prices leading to instability and etc etc etc.
The main problem with Wall Street is not the executives. It's the REGULATORS. Executives are people who have a very simple job; use means within the regulations to earn as much profit as possible. To the ordinary idiot, this apparently sounds like an evil goal, when in fact this is what everyone should strive to achieve - to work your hardest and produce the best work possible using everything within the rules. What is defined as "bad" and "good" in your job is simply defined by the rules.
Look at it this way, if a high-school project said you were allowed to use any resources possible as long as your input was significant, and you went to world-famous researchers and professors and helped compile the greatest high-school project ever seen with some of your own input, do you think the school teachers are going to crack down on this and complain, no matter how much the other students complain? It's grey area, and the only thing that defines "right" and "wrong" in this system are the rules. The student who did this might not have predicted that this would have sparked massive competition within the school and caused a crisis concerning student competitiveness, but it's not something we can blame the guy for, even if he did see it coming.
Of course, leading to the credit crisis in '08, some might say that somewhere along the line, someone was doing something purposely hugely wrong or evil, and this led to the crisis. Wrong. These were incremental problems that were not the fault of the people, but rather of the overall system. Imagine that student example, except compounded, and the competitiveness leads to many suicides (cough private elite high school boarding schools cough). It could lead to something huge. Possibly, the principal or whatever of the school might have been able to see the big picture. However, what is he going to say to any one person that might make it fair for everyone? He can't just dole out criticisms. He's not going to complain because the quality of work in his school is fantastic and it has a great reputation now. The only chance to correct something like this is a wide-spread regulation. And thus it is the fault of the regulators, not the students or the teachers. Or in our real case, it is not the fault of the average bankers and execs. The regulatory companies (of which there are quite a few) need to figure out their sh*t and work things out and make sure their regulations are followed.
Having said all this, there are many Wall St. execs who are out to swindle money. They obviously need to be caught and destroyed. However, this is no different from any job, especially politics. I bet politicians are right now having a field day, because they can blame all corruption and loss of money from the economy on Wall St, while they pocket and laugh at the stupid public. If you want to look for a corrupt system, you honestly don't have to look that far.
**everything I've said here is either fact or logic, so if you want to rebut anything here, make sure to actually have something logical to say.
Wow, I entered this thread expecting the basest of populist "Stick it to the MAN" sentiment, and still see some rational-thinking people out there. Hear-hear! Adding some comments on your post and this topic.
The call to solidarity seems to be, "We are the 99 percent." From their linked website,
We are the 99 percent. We are getting kicked out of our homes. We are forced to choose between groceries and rent. We are denied quality medical care. We are suffering from environmental pollution. We are working long hours for little pay and no rights, if we're working at all. We are getting nothing while the other 1 percent is getting everything. We are the 99 percent.
Staggering claim. You have access to some of the best medical care in the world. The real number of homelessness is America is very close to 1% (far cry from the majority). Anyone can apply for food stamps. You are getting the privileges of living in a welfare state.
The rich are not the reason you are poor. A rich man earning an extra 10k$ a year makes you no less able to provide for yourself. The whole website is the mushy feelgood sounding bit that would want you to believe that the 99% in America are ruled by the 1%, whereas the voting public elect their leaders by majority rule.
The general opinion of this? Wall street are swindlers. They're the ones responsible for the bad loans with interest rates you can no longer pay. Keone is right: If you're an executive on Wall St., your goal is to maximize profit while playing by the rules. The minority are out there to swindle people, and fractions of this minority are caught for violating the regulations they agreed to abide by and didn't. Wall St. is not evil. Corporations are not evil. They fill their needed role in the economy i.e. getting investor's money behind people that want to expand their business, and in return generating money when the business venture succeeds, and in the process seeking to minimize losses for then ventures do not succeed. Investors get percentage return on their investment (make money), businesses get the money they need to expand, fill the needs of others, and also make a profit. This is wealth creation. Systems other than Capitalism, that's where you have to have connections to make money and get privileges. Free markets operate when both sides benefit from the trade, your labor for the paycheck, your money for a house to live in, your money for a computer game to entertain yourself. Yet some people are convinced that
rampant organized crime that takes place on Wall Street
and
They directly profit off of the actual industries that help sustain life on this planet, while producing virtually nothing in exchange . No, they fill a necessary role in the economy or they wouldn't earn money, have jobs, or be in that line of work at all! The beauty of this economic system is that there is no third party, no Klipsys if you will, that monitors industries and sees if they produce anything of value, and only allows those who do real work to earn money. That is autocracy, or if you get a committee to work with it, socialism. Gnial is right when he says, "Wall street is amoral." Making money isn't a moral right or wrong, but everybody there has the same choice I have to follow or break the law.
The real disheartening thing is the ease at which people enter into this sweeping condemnation of another group of people earning more money than them. The envy of the rich turns into the invented right to have some of their money. No, they have a right to their hard-earned labor (as unfair as you think it is, as undeserved as you allege is the case, as unearned as you would have me believe the rich became rich sitting around doing nothing). I enjoy the freedom in the US to retain the money I get paid from my job and be protected against anyone that would seek to take it in the name of injustice (maybe I was hired instead of someone else, for instance). Mini manifesto / wall of text there, sorry.
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On September 25 2011 19:39 KaiserJohan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2011 19:33 OsoVega wrote:On September 25 2011 19:33 KaiserJohan wrote:
It probably isn't the wall streets fault I agree, they just seek to make as much money as the next guy. Put the blame on the government instead for not regulating the investment business. No, put the blame on government for regulating the investment business. How would unregulated investment be a good thing?
It's the regulation that has caused all the failures of our mixed markets that we've had since the Industrial Revolution. Just look at the SEC, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and all the portfolio requirements of investors and tell me that the investment market has been under-regulated.
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Wall street isn't analogous to Starcraft II. You don't have the regulators/government as Blizzard, coming up with the rules of the game and then the wall street executives as the pro-gamers, trying their hardest to find ways to excel within the limit of the rules. If they get a chance to win by abusing some cheesy strategy, it's not their fault, it's Blizzard's, obviously. This all sounds nice, but those executives have a moral responsibility too. If their policy leads to massive income inequality, political corruption and siphoning off of public wealth to shady investors then no more ought they be able to claim they were just playing within the rules than that any person can just do anything for selfish reasons. Just because we promoted a profit > all mentality into the overarching system, does not mean at their core the wall street executives aren't responsible. And mind you, they make the rules themselves and created a system where they can almost never lose.
So yay for the Wall Street occupation, I hope it gets lots of publicity.
And by the way, of course most understand that Wall Street is needed. Investors and the stock market do perform a potentially useful role in society, but that's not the point: you can't continuously excuse corruption and harmful behavior by pointing to the good they do. This should be obvious, the big banks don't have to outright disappear, but maybe they ought to pay more taxes, do less predatory loans, don't gamble with mortgages too much, don't make up rating systems based on nothing to trick gullible investors, don't do stock market manipulation that raises oil prices? I'm not really an expert, so I bet anyone who is can name two dozen more wrong things they do, and why shouldn't we try to put a stop to those bad practices?
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Its sad to see so meny brainwatch american jumping to defend the thiefs of wall street.
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EPT
