EPTAgain, I am not saying that what the demonstrators do is necessarily bad, just how they proceed.
Occupy Wall Street - Page 46
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ICA
498 Posts
Again, I am not saying that what the demonstrators do is necessarily bad, just how they proceed. | ||
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Madkipz
Norway1643 Posts
On October 08 2011 22:02 BioNova wrote: Was this what you were looking for? ![[image loading]](http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Evil-Corporations.jpg) I agree with the general sentiment of the picture. Go to the State, or after the real Money (FED). Anything else is attacking symptoms, ignoring root cause. The problem with waving a flag in this kind of rally is that any flag by its own invokes patritosim and faith in the country. This is exactly what the people there do not have. The whole protest is built on the country they live in is not so great as we would like to believe. The lower level jobs in for instance Norway are taken up by immigrants and students. Because everypony else cannot make ends meet by working there. It`s the same with minimum wage and If you can`t make ends meet it shouldn`t be a job in the first place. It should be automated or the people should just stop working these jobs untill higher salaries are offered. We are seeing a great shift where the average American. Nay Netizen of the world, demands more of those above. That their jobs have more value. That their life and their time is valued. Because right now they do not feel very valued at all. In essense they get nickled and dimed and immigrants with no union backing ensure that the system is kept working. I do not agree with the picture. Phones, cars, housing and clothes are all made out of corporations. This much is true. But what would throwing them away accomplish? Should these people form an amish community? really? The message they send is literally the same as the one in Fight club. Only they admirably do not use the same means. | ||
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Saji
Netherlands262 Posts
On October 08 2011 10:21 radiatoren wrote: Heh, speaking of fraud in banking there are a few running cases in Denmark about those issues. In one case a CEO and a board of directors leader made some rediculous golden handshakes of many millions behind the back of the rest of the board of directores while the bank was insolvent. I don't think the case is really going anywhere... Another one is 2 local banks granting eachother loans and thereby averting taxes. That one will most likely give a heavy sentence to both. The bankingsector in Denmark is very strong for the top 4 banks, while the small and local banks are hurting because of a raised liquidity-requirement. Right now laws to force the small banks to fusionate are being talked about and there is a company for taking over the worst loans, However I think Denmark can get through the crisis. Having a negative debt, aaa in credit-rating and stable and having a pretty conservative national bank (thereby meaning very cautious) tends to give a lot of options in a crisis-situation. The big problems for Denmark is the partial economic cooperation with the euro and the housing-market having bubbled heavily. Looking at the contributers to the crisis: In my opinion a big part of the problem is in the debt-acceptance. Debt has been accepted as a part of living and some even saw it as stupid not to have extensive debt. Now people has become cautious. However the hangover from the age of debt will be felt for many years to come, while things gradually get back to normal. Now finansial companies accepting and encouraging that behaviour is the next problem (In Denmark it was worse with loans outside banks). The loans were giving out new financial investment-possibilities and the lack of sufficient knowledge of the risks in those products is a truely disturbing aspect: The investers didn't bother to research it enough. That is the third problem. The fourth and final problem is actually problem zero too. Politically legalizing those products in the first place in a semi-controlled market was the most discusting problem and without it the crash would not have been a crash. Bailing out like it was done in the end is a controversial solution, but having the whole market collapse is downright irresponsible since it takes time to start it up from scratch again. However it is a problem to bail them out because a lot of other people will be more careless since they expect a bail out later if they end in the same situation. Hey i don't think Denmark will come out of this any better then the rest of Europe, When the Euro falls (which will happen) It will affect everyone in Europe. Look at who Denmark is trading with Main export partners Germany 17.8%, Sweden 14.5%, United Kingdom 8.1%, Norway 5.7%, United States 5.4%, Netherlands 4.8%, France 4.7% (2008) Main import partners Germany 21.6%, Sweden 14.4%, Netherlands 7.1%, Norway 6.0%, China 5.4%, United Kingdom 5.3%, France 4.8%, Italy 4.1% (European Union total: 72.6%) (2008 est.) All these countries are affected by the banking fraudulent behaviour that has resulted in this sovereign debt crisis. I think it is a mistake to think that countries can act independed. In contemporary time we are all inter-depended through trade. Meaning the collapse of a country, i.e. Greece, Portugal, Ireland will have a ripple effect. It will spread out to the rest of the connected countries they do business or have bonds. Fraud Fraud Fraud reaches Debt Saturation International Banks (criminals) have fraudiliant debts in the form useless bonds of weak countries. And when they go default those banks have to write of massive losses. Losses which can't be covered anymore by sovereign debt, We have reach a point of debt saturation See: http://articles.businessinsider.com/2010-03-25/markets/30064450_1_consumer-debt-debt-declines-gdp This is a very simple chart. It takes the change in GDP and divides it by the change in Debt. What it shows is how much productivity is gained by infusing $1 of debt into our debt backed money system. ![[image loading]](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-czt5YoLhD9A/To9rcniwL2I/AAAAAAAAPgY/qoePFGIkmE0/s1600/Diminishing+Productivity+of+DEBT.jpg) http://articles.businessinsider.com/2010-03-21/markets/29960893_1_new-debt-dollar-productivity Debt Debt and more Debt for what? We have to understand that current day Debt serves no other purpose than keeping fraudulent banks alive and rewarding them for their behaviour, which is enslaving citizens with more debt and austerity measurements. I don't know but for me this simply goes beyond any sane logic. There are tons of different way's "use" money to get us out of this crisis and never come back to it. Yet our "pluralist" government parties have kept doing the same thing, and that thing has resulted in deeper crisis, more debt, more austerity measurements. Why current day policies will not work! The reason why is because most of our "pluralist" government parties are bought and controlled by large Multinational Corporation, which of course are controlled by very few people. Hence the 99% vs 1%. There is no People's Democracy in USA or Europe there is only Pluralist Democracy! Definition Pluralist/Pluralism: In a pluralist system, interest groups lobby the formal institutions to try to get their preferred legislative options. It is a competitive system of seeking influence, but although early pluralist theories suggested that there was a level playing field of competition, it is now generally accepted that some groups have greater resources than others,m and so benefit more from this form of interest representation. Source: Politics in the European Union: Third Edition, Ian Bache, Stephen George, Simon Bulmer. Publisher Oxford University Press. Page 580 Good to know! Who funds Who! http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/08/barackobama-wallstreet-bankers-campaign-donations-goldmansachs http://www.opensecrets.org/overview/topcontribs.php?Bkdn=DemRep&Cycle=2012 Top Contributors This table lists the top donors to this candidate in the 2008 election cycle. The organizations themselves did not donate , rather the money came from the organization's PAC, its individual members or employees or owners, and those individuals' immediate families. Organization totals include subsidiaries and affiliates. Because of contribution limits, organizations that bundle together many individual contributions are often among the top donors to presidential candidates. These contributions can come from the organization's members or employees (and their families). The organization may support one candidate, or hedge its bets by supporting multiple candidates. Groups with national networks of donors - like EMILY's List and Club for Growth - make for particularly big bundlers. http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cid=N00009638 Top Overall Donors The organizations listed below were the biggest donors to federal candidates and political parties in the election cycle. The numbers combine all PAC, soft money (for the 2002 election cycle and before), and large ($200+) individual contributions made by the organization, its employees, officers and their immediate families. Subsidiaries and affiliates are also included in the totals. Not included is money spent independently on issue ads or donations to political party conventions, legal defense funds, presidential inaugurations or post-election recount funds. http://www.opensecrets.org/bigpicture/topcontribs.php | ||
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radiatoren
Denmark1907 Posts
On October 09 2011 02:19 Saji wrote: Hey i don't think Denmark will come out of this any better then the rest of Europe, When the Euro falls (which will happen) It will affect everyone in Europe. Look at who Denmark is trading with All these countries are affected by the banking fraudulent behaviour that has resulted in this sovereign debt crisis. I think it is a mistake to think that countries can act independed. In contemporary time we are all inter-depended through trade. Meaning the collapse of a country, i.e. Greece, Portugal, Ireland will have a ripple effect. It will spread out to the rest of the connected countries they do business or have bonds. Fraud Fraud Fraud reaches Debt Saturation International Banks (criminals) have fraudiliant debts in the form useless bonds of weak countries. And when they go default those banks have to write of massive losses. Losses which can't be covered anymore by sovereign debt, We have reach a point of debt saturation http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIBEhvUDQUs See: http://articles.businessinsider.com/2010-03-25/markets/30064450_1_consumer-debt-debt-declines-gdp http://articles.businessinsider.com/2010-03-21/markets/29960893_1_new-debt-dollar-productivity Debt Debt and more Debt for what? We have to understand that current day Debt serves no other purpose than keeping fraudulent banks alive and rewarding them for their behaviour, which is enslaving citizens with more debt and austerity measurements. I don't know but for me this simply goes beyond any sane logic. There are tons of different way's "use" money to get us out of this crisis and never come back to it. Yet our "pluralist" government parties have kept doing the same thing, and that thing has resulted in deeper crisis, more debt, more austerity measurements. Why current day policies will not work! The reason why is because most of our "pluralist" government parties are bought and controlled by large Multinational Corporation, which of course are controlled by very few people. Hence the 99% vs 1%. There is no People's Democracy in USA or Europe there is only Pluralist Democracy! Definition Pluralist/Pluralism: Source: Politics in the European Union: Third Edition, Ian Bache, Stephen George, Simon Bulmer. Publisher Oxford University Press. Page 580 Good to know! Who funds Who! http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/08/barackobama-wallstreet-bankers-campaign-donations-goldmansachs http://www.opensecrets.org/overview/topcontribs.php?Bkdn=DemRep&Cycle=2012 http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cid=N00009638 http://www.opensecrets.org/bigpicture/topcontribs.php Tradingpartners is not all and if you look at those countries, it is barring US and Italy relatively healthy economies. Most of which can potentially withstand a heavy loss from southern europe. I am not sure the euro will fail as you fear. They have to use exclusions from the euro as the primary form of action, meaning, Greece will loose euros as their official currency, before they default. If it comes to be a problem in Portugal, Spain and Italy they are more likely to split up the euro in good and bad economies rather than letting it fail completely. Splitting up will give a ton of new possibilities for regulation to the new parts because of the larger homogeneity of the economic situations. As your expert mentioned, some parts of benelux and scandinavia is doing too well to just crash completely. There is definately a lot of lobbying going around and that is certainly an issue. When it comes to bought politicians it is not as big an effect in Denmark yet as in the US since the public funding of the political parties is orders of magnitude larger than any company contributers and the fundings are being officially registered anyway, so you can get a list if you ask for it. I think you are to the pessimistic side of things on most of the issues and rightfully so when demanding actions. However it is not like it will crash this year or next year. | ||
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Ordained
United States779 Posts
http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-for-occupy-wall-st-moveme/ These people are ****ing nuts and have no idea at all about the economy. | ||
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Josealtron
United States219 Posts
On October 09 2011 03:27 Ordained wrote: I was impartial until I was linked this. http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-for-occupy-wall-st-moveme/ These people are ****ing nuts and have no idea at all about the economy. Did you read the first few sentences? Admin note: This is not an official list of demands. This is a forum post submitted by a single user and hyped by irresponsible news/commentary agencies like Fox News and Mises.org. This content was not published by the OccupyWallSt.org collective, nor was it ever proposed or agreed to on a consensus basis with the NYC General Assembly. There is NO official list of demands. Wow. | ||
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Zealotdriver
United States1557 Posts
On October 09 2011 03:27 Ordained wrote: I was impartial until I was linked this. http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-for-occupy-wall-st-moveme/ These people are ****ing nuts and have no idea at all about the economy. You would have to be completely oblivious to think that the Occupy protests are homogenous enough to earn the term "these people." That list of demands is by one person who does not speak for anyone else. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On October 08 2011 22:02 BioNova wrote: Was this what you were looking for? I agree with the general sentiment of the picture. Go to the State, or after the real Money (FED). Anything else is attacking symptoms, ignoring root cause. What? They're rallying against Wall Street, the financial sector, and how they fucked up the businesses. That picture doesn't make any sense. The "Proposed list" and all these things are just showing how stupid the average protester is. But I don't think that means that the whole idea is bad. They certainly don't seem any dumber than the Tea Party protesters. | ||
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Saji
Netherlands262 Posts
On October 09 2011 03:25 radiatoren wrote: Tradingpartners is not all and if you look at those countries, it is barring US and Italy relatively healthy economies. Most of which can potentially withstand a heavy loss from southern europe. I am not sure the euro will fail as you fear. They have to use exclusions from the euro as the primary form of action, meaning, Greece will loose euros as their official currency, before they default. If it comes to be a problem in Portugal, Spain and Italy they are more likely to split up the euro in good and bad economies rather than letting it fail completely. Splitting up will give a ton of new possibilities for regulation to the new parts because of the larger homogeneity of the economic situations. As your expert mentioned, some parts of benelux and scandinavia is doing too well to just crash completely. There is definately a lot of lobbying going around and that is certainly an issue. When it comes to bought politicians it is not as big an effect in Denmark yet as in the US since the public funding of the political parties is orders of magnitude larger than any company contributers and the fundings are being officially registered anyway, so you can get a list if you ask for it. I think you are to the pessimistic side of things on most of the issues and rightfully so when demanding actions. However it is not like it will crash this year or next year. Hi I do not know the lobbying situation in Denmark, but what i do know (going back to the theme of this thread) is that the decisions made in US affect all western countries. As lets face it US is still the powerhouse of the Western world. So While Denmark might not feel it directly it sure will feel it later on the time line. Secondly i dont like that you paint me off as pessimistic. Firstly because you might not be experiencing first hand what is happening now in the world relative to your situation. For me it`s this (my personal crisis) My little sister is 17 years old her intuition fees are increasing by the year because of the austerity policies which are made because of the sovereign debt crisis . While at the same time the social support (getting government money to pay school) is decreasing due to austerity policies. Secondly my sister works at a large retail company were she earns a mere 3.75 euro per hour. She will never be able to pay off her intuition fee with this alone. Furthermore once she turns 18 she will lose her job most likely because the corporation has to pay her a higher minimum wage and there are enough kids to replace her. (great huh free markets) Adding the current economic situation there is a high change she will not find another job to pay off her intuition fee, So that leaves her with the option to borrow money from the state to pay of the intuition. While at the same there will be no guarantee that her degree will give her a decent job, as economic predictions are looking very grim (Netherlands can`t even pay the sovereign debt rent thus next year it will increase) and more austerity policies will be made to compensate for this (do you see the downward spiral? And i haven't even started about what this does to a 17 year old person mentally.... that's another crisis..... Lastly i ask you this if you look at the policies made in general for the last 5 years have they been successful in solving the debt crisis? (starting from 2007)? Why do people still trust their governments is beyond me. PS look this if you want to know why the euro will fall (it is inherent to its design) Compare the Sovereign debt of european nations to the amount of euro`s that is put in to save the euro and you will see how the euro is unsustainable and now reiterate the aspect of how inter-depended the Euro is to the Dollar and its volatility and likewise plus volatility in dollars or euro`s affect the position of the international banks (criminals). or check http://www.zerohedge.com/news/chart-week-european-fear-and-loathing-hits-record-13-trillion Diapason's Sean Corrigan, is the epic "Fear and Loathing" in the European banking system, in all its $1.3 trillion glory, or nearly double where it was when Lehman filed for bankruptcy Banks may say they trust each other, they may promise the system is viable, they may even submit bogus (if increasing) Libor indications to the collusive organization that is the BBA, but the truth is, in vivid color, presented below. Never before have European banks parked as much of their hard earned cash with the only two remaining pillars of "stability", the Fed and the ECB. And with Dexia about to be nationalized, and an unpredictable, and highly contagious, waterfall chain of events about to be unleashed on Europe all over again, will the worst case scenario transpire and the ECB's credibility be swept away? If so, prepare for all the money in the world to funnel into the binary number-based safety Then the two ultimate questions become: how long before the Fed's own viability is questioned by the global vigilantes (who have finally started asking the right questions), and who will bail out the central bank tasked with bailing out the world? Sean Corrigan: + Show Spoiler + Stalwart economist of the anti-government Austrian school, Sean Corrigan has been thumbing his nose at the crowd ever since he sold Sterling for a profit as the ERM collapsed in autumn 1992. Former City correspondent for The Daily Reckoning, and now a frequent contributor to the widely-respected Ludwig von Mises website, Mr Corrigan is chief investment strategist at Diapason Commodities Management, with offices in Lausanne and London. ![[image loading]](http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2011/09/Euro%20Fear%20And%20Loathing.jpg) | ||
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VPCursed
1044 Posts
http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-for-occupy-wall-st-moveme/ rly? absurd. | ||
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Sevryn
698 Posts
On October 09 2011 03:59 VPCursed wrote: The list of demands almost makes me feel ashamed to be a leftist.. http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-for-occupy-wall-st-moveme/ rly? absurd. Admin note: This is not an official list of demands. This is a forum post submitted by a single user and hyped by irresponsible news/commentary agencies like Fox News and Mises.org. This content was not published by the OccupyWallSt.org collective, nor was it ever proposed or agreed to on a consensus basis with the NYC General Assembly. There is NO official list of demands. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On October 09 2011 03:59 VPCursed wrote: The list of demands almost makes me feel ashamed to be a leftist.. http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-for-occupy-wall-st-moveme/ rly? absurd. Four posts above you in this same goddamned page. On October 09 2011 03:35 Josealtron wrote: Did you read the first few sentences? Wow. | ||
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VPCursed
1044 Posts
On October 09 2011 04:16 koreasilver wrote: Four posts above you in this same goddamned page. relax bro. | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
On October 09 2011 03:45 Saji wrote: For me it`s this (my personal crisis) My little sister is 17 years old her intuition fees are increasing by the year because of the austerity policies which are made because of the sovereign debt crisis . While at the same time the social support (getting government money to pay school) is decreasing due to austerity policies. Secondly my sister works at a large retail company were she earns a mere 3.75 euro per hour. She will never be able to pay off her intuition fee with this alone. Furthermore once she turns 18 she will lose her job most likely because the corporation has to pay her a higher minimum wage and there are enough kids to replace her. (great huh free markets) That's so cute. Did you actually attribute blame for your sister losing her job because of an imposed minimum wage on "free markets" ? The minimum wage is hardly a "free market" concept, it's quite the opposite. Your sister would have been better off without the minimum wage, as would many people trying to enter the workforce without much experience. However, people are too stupid to realize it, and blame the "free markets" for everything bad. | ||
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Undrass
Norway381 Posts
On October 09 2011 04:39 Kaitlin wrote: That's so cute. Did you actually attribute blame for your sister losing her job because of an imposed minimum wage on "free markets" ? The minimum wage is hardly a "free market" concept, it's quite the opposite. Your sister would have been better off without the minimum wage, as would many people trying to enter the workforce without much experience. However, people are too stupid to realize it, and blame the "free markets" for everything bad. if not for minimum wage, she would have earned half of what she does now... | ||
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Madkipz
Norway1643 Posts
On October 09 2011 04:39 Kaitlin wrote: That's so cute. Did you actually attribute blame for your sister losing her job because of an imposed minimum wage on "free markets" ? The minimum wage is hardly a "free market" concept, it's quite the opposite. Your sister would have been better off without the minimum wage, as would many people trying to enter the workforce without much experience. However, people are too stupid to realize it, and blame the "free markets" for everything bad. Free markets? If unions can`t set a standard minimum wage that makes it worth everypony`s while for the good of the nation`s entire workforce then what use are they? There shouldn`t be a cheaper workforce to grab from. There should be a set price on labour. This is how much that is worth per hour. Because human beings are equal and every moment is precious. | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
On October 09 2011 04:50 Undrass wrote: if not for minimum wage, she would have earned half of what she does now... Hmm, what I read in the post was that she would lose her job when she turns 18 because of the increase in minimum wage associated with turning 18. So what is 1/2 of $0 ? | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
On October 09 2011 04:56 Madkipz wrote: Free markets? If unions can`t set a standard minimum wage that makes it worth everypony`s while for their nations workforce then what use are they? There shouldn`t be a cheaper workforce to grab from. There should be a set price on labour. This is how much that is worth per hour. Because human beings are equal and every moment is precious. What a complete load of crap. You can't tell me all labor is worth the same amount. The fact is, some jobs (those commonly performed by those with no experience or trying to first enter the job market) are not worth as much. If a particular task is not worth the "minimum wage" it would cost to get it done, it doesn't get done, and that is a product or service that does not get created or performed. | ||
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Madkipz
Norway1643 Posts
On October 09 2011 05:02 Kaitlin wrote: What a complete load of crap. You can't tell me all labor is worth the same amount. The fact is, some jobs (those commonly performed by those with no experience or trying to first enter the job market) are not worth as much. If a particular task is not worth the "minimum wage" it would cost to get it done, it doesn't get done, and that is a product or service that does not get created or performed. Im not saying All labour is worth the same amount. Im saying humans in a free world should be able to determine a minimum price for their hourly work that makes it worth doing. This does not mean higher salaries should not be paid to those with a better education. It means Those that clean trash should have a minimum wage that makes their job worth doing that for. In the chase of No minimum wage they pick someone desperate enough to accept shit for money to do it and that`s exploitation. Either the system should be automated or it should be worth a human`s time. There should not be a middle ground. | ||
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Saji
Netherlands262 Posts
On October 09 2011 04:39 Kaitlin wrote: That's so cute. Did you actually attribute blame for your sister losing her job because of an imposed minimum wage on "free markets" ? The minimum wage is hardly a "free market" concept, it's quite the opposite. Your sister would have been better off without the minimum wage, as would many people trying to enter the workforce without much experience. However, people are too stupid to realize it, and blame the "free markets" for everything bad. No, i don't think you understand, i'm sorry i might have explained it wrong. Did you actually attribute blame for your sister losing her job because of an imposed minimum wage on "free markets" ? no, what i meant with free market is that there is a wage difference made based solely on age (which is quiet bullshit). To exploit workers. You see when you can have 16 years old doing grown up work for less money you exploit people based on age while they do the same work as grown ups (21+) How it works now in the Netherlands is that minimum wages different per age, per sector. That means it`s entire meaning is deconstructed to fit the "free market" because if you have so much differences you can easily exploit people. A minimum wage has to be the same for all working people in a country otherwise it is self defeating. Other wise what does those words mean? My sister would have been worse of with what you suggest. In your analysis it seems alteast for me that you do not take into account the current economic condition. there is a depression that means that unemployment is high. That means that there are more people that want to work then there is work. In a society without minimum wages you can lower your wages much lower because there will always be desperate enough people. Can you see how this kind of situation (no minimum wages) is detrimental to the citizens of a nation? It is on the other hand very good for corporations because they can profit of the workers even more. but again this is just a short term view because it is simply not sustainable. Like how the European situation is. And if i take into account that which i know about economics and related that to my little sister, its going to be a fucked up future for her if government keep on doing these fucking retarded things Another news messages that confirms my worries: Slovak SaS Party Won’t Back EFSF After Compromise Rejected October 08, 2011, 10:00 AM EDT "Dexia's Funeral Will Be Announced On Sunday" and, as Bloomberg reports, that ii) Slovakia’s ruling Freedom and Solidarity party won’t back the overhaul of the European bailout mechanism after Prime Minister Iveta Radicova rejected the party’s conditions for approval, a lawmaker said. http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-10-08/slovak-sas-party-won-t-back-efsf-after-compromise-rejected.html UPDATE 1-Dexia board set to meet as break-up looms Sat Oct 8, 2011 6:02am EDT http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/08/dexia-idUSL5E7L805420111008 * Dexia board meeting expected to meet on Sunday * Moody's warns Belgium of possible bond ratings downgrade * France, Belgium arguing over who will pay to salvage Dexia * Dexia is first European bank meltdown amid euro zone crisis By Christian Plumb and Philip Blenkinsop PARIS/BRUSSELS, Oct 8 (Reuters) - France and Belgium are expected to finalise plans this weekend to break up Dexia , which helps finance hundreds of towns in both countries and became the first European bank to fall victim to the euro zone crisis. See spoilers for entire Article + Show Spoiler + Dexia, whose board is likely to meet on Sunday, was forced to seek government help earlier this week after a liquidity crunch hobbled the lender and sent its shares into a tailspin. The bank's implosion has added to investors' worries about the solidity of European banks and has coincided with increased European Union talk about coordinated action to recapitalise banks across the continent. The burden of bailing out Dexia also prompted Moody's to warn Belgium late on Friday that its credit rating could fall. The ratings agency also cited the prospect of higher funding costs and weak economic growth as reasons for putting Belgium's Aa1 government bond ratings on review for possible downgrade. France and Belgium have guaranteed Dexia's financing, paving the way for a new rescue for the bank, which is struggling to wind down billions of euros in toxic assets accumulated during an overambitious expansion plan. But there were signs that the details of the rescue were proving troublesome, as a Dexia board meeting originally scheduled for Saturday slipped back to Sunday. Still, a source close to the talks was confident the bank's future would be determined before the opening of markets on Monday morning. "Dexia's funeral will be announced on Sunday," the source said. MELTDOWN Some investors view the response to Dexia's woes as a test of European governments' ability to take decisive action to rescue banks if the eurozone debt crisis worsens. "The need to rescue Dexia is symbolic of the uncertainty that characterises the banking sector," said Eric Galiegue, president of Valquant, an independent research firm. "Who would have imagined that a bank so linked with European construction would end up being dismantled?" French President Nicolas Sarkozy was due to meet German Chancellor Angela Merkel on Sunday in Berlin amid reports of differences on how to use the euro zone's financial firepower to counter a sovereign debt crisis that threatens the global economy. There were also clashes within Belgium, between the federal government and its regions, over Dexia's fate, with the central government favouring a nationalisation of its Belgian retail unit but facing stiff opposition from regions who fear the loss of 1 billion euros they contributed to an initial Dexia rescue. An agreement may have been found late on Friday, under which the federal government would agree to let regions back into the capital of DBB, Dexia's Belgian retail lender, through a rights issue at a later stage, Belgian newspaper L'Echo reported. "This Belgian-Belgian arrangement should allow to finalise this weekend the rescue of Dexia by Belgium and France," L'Echo said on its website on Saturday. Citing no sources, L'Echo also said several international banks, including Deutsche Bank , Rabobank , Credit Mutuel and BBVA , had "shown interest in DBB." Assuming those differences in Belgium are resolved, Paris and Brussels still need to agree on how much each will contribute to a broader Dexia overhaul. That overhaul will probably see the sale of healthy units such as Denizbank in Turkey and a takeover of its French municipal finance arm by two French state banks, including Dexia's largest shareholder, Caisse des Depots and Consignations, which has a 17.6 percent stake. Belgian and French financial experts began talks on Thursday, but politicians from each country have yet to enter discussions. Dexia's shares have been suspended since Thursday afternoon and are down 42 percent since last Friday. The bank's meltdown has worried some of its Belgian depositors, who earlier this week overwhelmed the bank's telephone helpline. On a broader level it has heightened concern about other European banks' solidity, though Societe Generale Chief Executive Frederic Oudea told Reuters in an interview on Friday that Dexia's circumstances were specific to itself, and "people should not expect further problems with the system". What it means in normal language: "Dexia's Funeral Will Be Announced On Sunday" As "Weakest Link" Slovakia Prepares To Bury The Euro Tyler Durden on 10/08/2011 http://www.zerohedge.com/news/dexias-funeral-will-be-announced-sunday-weakest-link-slovenia-prepares-bury-euro For those who are still confused, here is what is going on: The bailout plan that was proposed in July, and was supposed to be operational by the start of September, has still not been ratified, and now the smallest European country is holding the entire continent, its currency, and frankly the Fed, which will have to step in and bailout Europe, hostage. In the meantime, the first actual core bank casuality is about to go 6 feet under, and unleash a falling house of cards of unpredictable consequences, which will likely make the "fear and loathing" chart presented previously double in a very short time. And in this environment, where the decisionmakers in Europe are objectively about 2 years behind the curve, are paralyzed into inactivity and torn asunder by warring political parties, the market actually believes that some actual "solid" policy intervention can about to take place? And to reiterate, to the topic. I think quiet allot of people are fighting/protesting because of the huge amount of injustice that is done to all of us, but because we all have different experiences we formulate our their/mine/our individual complains/demands differently. But the sentiment is the same, the current situation is not sustainable with the current course of action, and that course of action is led by the same people who brought us to this situation. At least for me that is quiet clear. | ||
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