On September 29 2011 05:22 Madkipz wrote: They rally under the same banner so whatever the banner (original group) stands for they stand for too.
This is what should be the case.
This would be logical.
This is not what is happening. People who don't know anything about wall street, and know nothing about the financial crisis other than that it happened, and who aren't even affected by it, are protesting in Vancouver under the banner of "Occupy Wall Street" to try to promote seemingly random ideals without any substance to their protest. "Down with racism!" Not any type of racism in particular, or any incident of racism...just down with the idea of racism!!!
How can a protest achieve its purpose if no-one knows that the hell you're protesting about, because hordes of idiots have come with off-topic protests and lumped themselves in with the original protesters?
Rather than seeing a huge group of people united behind one cause, you see a huge group of people who have too much time on their hands and don't know what they are doing. The first comment on the facebook page for the event was, "Awesome! I'm there! ... So what are we protesting?" Its so stupid.
On September 28 2011 08:30 Pesto wrote: "MSNBC on Police Brutality"
Most of the footage in this has already been posted in this thread. But this hasn't been posted yet and it is the only mainstream TV footage (that I could find) of the demonstrations, and this commentator doesn't pull his punches (no pun intended) in terms of his opinions on the issue.
I'd be interested to read some reactions, particularly from people who disagree and find this to be hyperbole.
My gut reaction as to why a corporate media station would cover this is that the issue is being steered away from the issues of the protest (corporate greed and corruption of government) itself and toward the issue of police brutality (which is still certainly of tremendous importance).
Edit: only mainstream footage I could find, let me know if there has been anything else.
shit is disgusting. How can cops grab ppl for just filming them ? or for being behind the police barrier doing nothing ?
Hilarious some ppl still can say they were doing something illegal. Are u blind ? or just in denial ? Criticizing them hiding behind your keyboard, ok mr internet tough guy.
Most of the footage in this has already been posted in this thread. But this hasn't been posted yet and it is the only mainstream TV footage (that I could find) of the demonstrations, and this commentator doesn't pull his punches (no pun intended) in terms of his opinions on the issue.
I'd be interested to read some reactions, particularly from people who disagree and find this to be hyperbole.
My gut reaction as to why a corporate media station would cover this is that the issue is being steered away from the issues of the protest (corporate greed and corruption of government) itself and toward the issue of police brutality (which is still certainly of tremendous importance).
Edit: only mainstream footage I could find, let me know if there has been anything else.
shit is disgusting. How can cops grab ppl for just filming them ? or for being behind the police barrier doing nothing ?
Hilarious some ppl still can say they were doing something illegal. Are u blind ? or just in denial ? Criticizing them hiding behind your keyboard, ok mr internet tough guy.
Its sad, occupy wall street has been more about police brutality than their cause...but since nobody knows what their cause is they can't even martyr themselves...its just people getting beaten down.
This is yet another downside to having an incoherent or overly general message - anti police brutality becomes your main message.
Most of the footage in this has already been posted in this thread. But this hasn't been posted yet and it is the only mainstream TV footage (that I could find) of the demonstrations, and this commentator doesn't pull his punches (no pun intended) in terms of his opinions on the issue.
I'd be interested to read some reactions, particularly from people who disagree and find this to be hyperbole.
My gut reaction as to why a corporate media station would cover this is that the issue is being steered away from the issues of the protest (corporate greed and corruption of government) itself and toward the issue of police brutality (which is still certainly of tremendous importance).
Edit: only mainstream footage I could find, let me know if there has been anything else.
shit is disgusting. How can cops grab ppl for just filming them ? or for being behind the police barrier doing nothing ?
Hilarious some ppl still can say they were doing something illegal. Are u blind ? or just in denial ? Criticizing them hiding behind your keyboard, ok mr internet tough guy.
Its sad, occupy wall street has been more about police brutality than their cause...but since nobody knows what their cause is they can't even martyr themselves...its just people getting beaten down.
This is yet another downside to having an incoherent or overly general message - anti police brutality becomes your main message.
I agree with you, for now, but I have a friend at the protests (he goes to school in the city) and they are using this first couple of weeks to organize the actual population of the movement and create a cohesive environment from which actual specific demands may be democratically agreed upon.
But, the underlying idea behind this whole movement is the unfairness in our economic inequality, and the fact that the few people with the most money have more political influence than the majority without it. It's not a democracy if rich people have more sway in the government than those less wealthy.
Most of the footage in this has already been posted in this thread. But this hasn't been posted yet and it is the only mainstream TV footage (that I could find) of the demonstrations, and this commentator doesn't pull his punches (no pun intended) in terms of his opinions on the issue.
I'd be interested to read some reactions, particularly from people who disagree and find this to be hyperbole.
My gut reaction as to why a corporate media station would cover this is that the issue is being steered away from the issues of the protest (corporate greed and corruption of government) itself and toward the issue of police brutality (which is still certainly of tremendous importance).
Edit: only mainstream footage I could find, let me know if there has been anything else.
It's hard to believe that such things are happening, and the funny thing is ~ most of the media will try to cover it just as much as police which defends their ranks, because it is just as corrupt as other institutes.
I've always believed that police brutality is off the charts there, however nobody really bought that idea. At least this video has convinced more people.
On September 29 2011 07:32 Nizaris wrote: Hilarious some ppl still can say they were doing something illegal. Are u blind ? or just in denial ? Criticizing them hiding behind your keyboard, ok mr internet tough guy.
The most amusing part, is that police occasionally use undercover officers to try to incite protesters and crowds to violence, to give them reason to get the billy clubs out.
My guess is, the people being grabbed in the video won't have any charges laid against them. There never are (And if there's no grounds for charges... What were the grounds for brutalizing them?). So much for police protecting and serving.
Since seeing this thread and understanding a little bit about what they are trying to do, I've noticed almost a news blackout on this in the USA. Seems like Network news stations prefer to let us know that Libya is now Kadafi(sp) free and the latest updates on Justin Bieber and his romantic interests.
On September 18 2011 09:36 moltenlead wrote: Seriously, some of my dad's college friends are executives on Wall Street, and they are "people" with families. They happened to get into a different line than most other people and they were successful, but what on earth is this protest going to do other than inconvenience them?
Yes some banks fucked up majorly, and paid the price for it as well, but a political witch-hunt to get re-elected really isn't solving any problems, and I am guessing that the political blame towards the big banks is what is pushing people here.
Anyone who works and doesn't meet their targets will be fired, so let these people just try to get their jobs done.
Pointing out that wall street execs are 'people too' is moot; no one is arguing that. the point is that they are operating within a system which projects the effects of their actions far beyond the scope of most.
The fact that they are 'just doing their jobs' is the problem; it is exactly the fact that they are in such a position of unaccountable power that no-one could be expected to handle it responsibly, or even be aware of the broadest effects of their actions/decisions.
the whole crux of the problem seems to be that the objectives/prerogatives of these financial institutions are extremely focused and narrow, while the effects of their actions are extremely broad and far ranging. Decency of character of individual executives has very little to do with this.
On September 18 2011 09:36 moltenlead wrote: Seriously, some of my dad's college friends are executives on Wall Street, and they are "people" with families. They happened to get into a different line than most other people and they were successful, but what on earth is this protest going to do other than inconvenience them?
Yes some banks fucked up majorly, and paid the price for it as well, but a political witch-hunt to get re-elected really isn't solving any problems, and I am guessing that the political blame towards the big banks is what is pushing people here.
Anyone who works and doesn't meet their targets will be fired, so let these people just try to get their jobs done.
Pointing out that wall street execs are 'people too' is moot; no one is arguing that. the point is that they are operating within a system which projects the effects of their actions far beyond the scope of most.
The fact that they are 'just doing their jobs' is the problem; it is exactly the fact that they are in such a position of unaccountable power that no-one could be expected to handle it responsibly, or even be aware of the broadest effects of their actions/decisions.
the whole crux of the problem seems to be that the objectives/prerogatives of these financial institutions are extremely focused and narrow, while the effects of their actions are extremely broad and far ranging. Decency of character of individual executives has very little to do with this.
So by directing your anger at the execs instead of politicians who enable that behavior, you and other protestors intend to do.... what??
what's the goal?? shut down wall street and the entire financial sector???
On September 29 2011 07:45 oldgregg wrote: America is slowly becoming more and more of a police state. 1984 is upon us!
'State' being the operative, i would respectfully disagree. 'state' is by definition an apparatus of government. The current power imbalance heavily favors the private sector (ie BIG MONEY) over public (ie BIG GOVMNT).
Think about it, who has more control over your life and lively-hood; the government, or the companies/corps who provide the jobs/products/services?
the 'police state' serves to protect the 'ruling' sector (BIG MONEY) from the citizen of the 'state'
the whole crux of the problem seems to be that the objectives/prerogatives of these financial institutions are extremely focused and narrow, while the effects of their actions are extremely broad and far ranging. Decency of character of individual executives has very little to do with this.
It's not just that. People and institutions with a lot of money are too powerful and have too much influence on government policies and the media. They have been able to influence politics to make decisions that make the rich even richer, at the expense of others. We need strong leaders to put them in line, prosecute those found guilty of criminal behavior and create a financial system that doesn't reward or allow unethical behavior and economics that distribute wealth more equally.
On September 29 2011 05:22 Madkipz wrote: They rally under the same banner so whatever the banner (original group) stands for they stand for too.
This is what should be the case.
This would be logical.
This is not what is happening. People who don't know anything about wall street, and know nothing about the financial crisis other than that it happened, and who aren't even affected by it, are protesting in Vancouver under the banner of "Occupy Wall Street" to try to promote seemingly random ideals without any substance to their protest. "Down with racism!" Not any type of racism in particular, or any incident of racism...just down with the idea of racism!!!
How can a protest achieve its purpose if no-one knows that the hell you're protesting about, because hordes of idiots have come with off-topic protests and lumped themselves in with the original protesters?
Rather than seeing a huge group of people united behind one cause, you see a huge group of people who have too much time on their hands and don't know what they are doing. The first comment on the facebook page for the event was, "Awesome! I'm there! ... So what are we protesting?" Its so stupid.
The may 68 movement in France didn't have any more specific goals or demands and it still changed the entire country. These people we see on the streets now show that they have lost faith in the political system because the wealth distribution is very unfair and only the rich have any political influence. I think that these questions are quite concrete and that they form the foundation of the "Occupy wall street" movement.
On September 18 2011 09:36 moltenlead wrote: Seriously, some of my dad's college friends are executives on Wall Street, and they are "people" with families. They happened to get into a different line than most other people and they were successful, but what on earth is this protest going to do other than inconvenience them?
Yes some banks fucked up majorly, and paid the price for it as well, but a political witch-hunt to get re-elected really isn't solving any problems, and I am guessing that the political blame towards the big banks is what is pushing people here.
Anyone who works and doesn't meet their targets will be fired, so let these people just try to get their jobs done.
Pointing out that wall street execs are 'people too' is moot; no one is arguing that. the point is that they are operating within a system which projects the effects of their actions far beyond the scope of most.
The fact that they are 'just doing their jobs' is the problem; it is exactly the fact that they are in such a position of unaccountable power that no-one could be expected to handle it responsibly, or even be aware of the broadest effects of their actions/decisions.
the whole crux of the problem seems to be that the objectives/prerogatives of these financial institutions are extremely focused and narrow, while the effects of their actions are extremely broad and far ranging. Decency of character of individual executives has very little to do with this.
So by directing your anger at the execs instead of politicians who enable that behavior, you and other protestors intend to do.... what??
what's the goal?? shut down wall street and the entire financial sector???
Did i direct my anger at executives? I thought i was making the opposite point :O. I was was trying to say that the system itself is the problem, and blaming/defending individuals within the system is useless and misguided.
I incidentally have the same problem with politicians, as you pointed out. however, in my view, the prerogatives of the political executives are much broader, and the effects of their actions much severe, relative to financial executives.
Shut down wall street? well no. Some kind of functional financial system must exist (obviously); the point is to reform it so that it is in fact 'functional' in the context of our broader national/international economy.
what is the purpose of this occupy wall street? what ideals do they strive to stand for? I do not understand why people are willing to unite under a banner that has no clear cause.
If you'll read back through this thread you'll clearly see I predicted exactly what would happen. The protesters would be arrested and sprayed with pepper spray. I said "the constitution is just a piece of paper, the guys with guns make the rules"
A lot of people responded against me strongly. I'm sure some thought I was nuts. The police can't just assault and arrest people, that's illegal. Right? (I was off on the bit about our rights being "endowed by our creator" that's not the constitution, that's in the declaration of independence. But since both our written by the same group of people, the founding fathers, it's not a huge stretch that this is how they felt about our rights)
Anyhow, this is what always happens in America. The "people with guns" ignore our rights and treat us like animals. They break the law and don't get punished. They violently assault the people they are sworn to protect and they get away with it. I wish I was wrong, but this is the reality of the United States. We the people are being suppressed by our government.
Things are going to get much worse. Our economic woes are only going to get harder. We have been sold out by our leaders. Corruption is rampant and the vast majority of people in this country aren't going to do a damn thing until the problems arrive at their doorstep and by then it's too late. Most people in the United States are so hopelessly brainwashed and dependent on this system that they will actually fight to protect a system that is intent to enslave them and their children through financial means. The fact of the matter is that in the U.S. your children are going to have less wealth and a lower standard of education than you. They will be ill-equipped to defend themselves from the power of the government.
One of the most eye opening experiences I had was about 7 years ago. I got my first traffic ticket and went to court. When I arrived I saw a line out the door of about 50 people. By their clothing and general appearances I had a realization. Police specifically target the people who are too poor and uneducated to have a fair chance at defending themselves against the power of the state.
I've had my rights violated more times than I can count by police. I've had my body, my vehicle and my home searched on a whim, several times. No warrants, no justification. I've filled complaints and nothing changes. We aren't free. I realized this at a young age and I hope more people start really thinking about these things for themselves and stop blindly believing what they have learned from others about our rights and the state of our democracy.
I really hope I'm wrong when I say that things are going to get much worse. But it's just a hope, I honestly feel we've passed the point of no return. Our economy is only going to get worse, our rights are only going to diminish from this point on, and by the time enough people realize they need to act it will be too late to change anything. They will be powerless against the government. We've given our government the power and ability to single out and destroy the lives of anyone they want. Even if people do get together (as in this protest) and try to bring attention to what is going on they will be overwhelmed and forced to submit. Or marginalized and portrayed in such a way that no one takes them seriously.
On September 18 2011 09:36 moltenlead wrote: Seriously, some of my dad's college friends are executives on Wall Street, and they are "people" with families. They happened to get into a different line than most other people and they were successful, but what on earth is this protest going to do other than inconvenience them?
Yes some banks fucked up majorly, and paid the price for it as well, but a political witch-hunt to get re-elected really isn't solving any problems, and I am guessing that the political blame towards the big banks is what is pushing people here.
Anyone who works and doesn't meet their targets will be fired, so let these people just try to get their jobs done.
M Pointing out that wall street execs are 'people too' is moot; no one is arguing that. the point is that they are operating within a system which projects the effects of their actions far beyond the scope of most.
The fact that they are 'just doing their jobs' is the problem; it is exactly the fact that they are in such a position of unaccountable power that no-one could be expected to handle it responsibly, or even be aware of the broadest effects of their actions/decisions.
the whole crux of the problem seems to be that the objectives/prerogatives of these financial institutions are extremely focused and narrow, while the effects of their actions are extremely broad and far ranging. Decency of character of individual executives has very little to do with this.
So by directing your anger at the execs instead of politicians who enable that behavior, you and other protestors intend to do.... what??
what's the goal?? shut down wall street and the entire financial sector???
The problem is both the politicians AND the execs. The thing is, we are in a situation that has no easy solution and the problem stems from the fact that in order to get into office (where you might be able to make good legislative strives to alleviate the problem) you need funding, and the easiest, most available source of funding is from corporations. But the corporations don't just give money away without getting something in return because that is poor investing. Its a perpetual cycle that has resulted in laws that shit on the middle class and benefit the super-rich.
I know I've already said it, but what needs to happen is implementation of congressional term limits and sever limitation (or outright ban) of corporate campaign contributions. This wont happen on its own, because Congress is responsible for making these changes through legislation, and asking Congress to limit their own terms is like asking a toddler to set his own bed time.
The complaints of the protesters is that the country does more for Corporations rather than the people, for example look at Bank of America and what it did etc. It's a Corporatocracy, why can't you tax the companies making record profits who already exploit loopholes etc.
Maybe Bloomberg is right about warning of massive Youth Unemployment...
On September 28 2011 19:07 GeyzeR wrote: Peter Schiff Cut Off By CNN for Speaking Truth, 11/24/2008
Peter Schiff was being interviewed live on C.N.N. just now about the current state of affairs, and he really gave his opinion clearly and without reservations.
He mentioned that he opposed the bailout, and would let failing corporations like AIG and CITI simply fail because "there´s a reason they failed"
"We should also not promote public spending or boost the economy, this is exactly why the U.S. economy failed in the first place. We have been spending way too much on credit and have had others pick up the bills we cannot possibly pay back".
He went on to say that Americans should create and save instead of spend.
On and on, hard truth after hard truth. The moment he started to make comments about the Federal Reserve system and why their policies have brought the U.S. where it is today, he was cutoff in midsentence (complete screen went to colored bars) leaving the interviewer baffled for about five seconds after which she went on to mumble "Technical difficulties" and jumping right on the good news of todays market recovery.
Peter Schiff was right in 2006 - 2007, but everybody laugh at him.
Uhm. I don't see why you think they cut him off. They let him speak for a good four minutes, and they knew very well in advance what his opinions are and what he was going to say.
I'm sorry, but that's just bad conspiracy theorizing.
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