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Republican nominations - Page 555

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Pillage
Profile Joined July 2011
United States804 Posts
March 16 2012 01:17 GMT
#11081
On March 16 2012 10:14 kwizach wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2012 06:06 xDaunt wrote:
On March 16 2012 06:00 DamnCats wrote:
On March 16 2012 05:59 xDaunt wrote:
On March 16 2012 05:44 Vega62a wrote:
On March 16 2012 05:19 xDaunt wrote:
On March 16 2012 05:00 Vega62a wrote:
On March 16 2012 04:11 xDaunt wrote:
Ironically, I find less fault with Obama's foreign policy than any other aspect of his presidency. Yeah, he shit all over a lot of our allies (particularly Britain and Israel), and his decision to announce a withdrawal date in Afghanistan was criminally stupid, but his administration has otherwise been almost indistinguishable from Bush's. He has basically run his foreign policy like a republican would, which I know irks a lot of democrats and liberals.


Please do not just post unsubstantiated ad hominems.

In what way did he shit all over Britain and Israel?

In what way was announcing a withdrawal date any more or less useful than simply pulling out unannounced? And in what way is that better or worse than continuing there indefinitely?

His foreign policy has generally placed more emphasis on "soft power" than did Bush's. That's not to say he's always been effective in it - he should have been exercising this mode of soft power against Iran years ago - but he's also not been throwing our muscle around. What is similar is only that neither Bush nor Obama had any qualms with foreign entanglements.

Why do I need to educate you on something that you should just know? It's no secret that the democrats are having trouble with the Jewish vote because of Obama's approach towards Israel. This was discussed ad nauseum when republicans won NY-9. Same thing with Britain. Hell, Kwark (British mod) even agreed with me at one point (I forget whether it was in this thread or elsewhere).


So your tactic is to make unsubstantiated claims, then claim "I should know already" when confronted about them?

Interesting...

Also, I'm pretty sure that if your statement about Kwark agreeing with you makes you feel like your claims are proven, you need to take a long, hard look at your standards of evidence.


I truly don't have time to educate people in this thread and fully brief my posts with citations to sources that support everything that I throw out, and I'm tired of people demanding that level of proof.

Go wallow in continued ignorance for all I care.


Does this mean I won't be receiving the links to a transcript or youtube video of a speech where Obama is apologizing for all sorts of nasty American things to a foreign audience?


See below. Taken in isolation, there's nothing wrong with any of the statements. However, when he's making these kinds of statements at every stop along the way, that's going to raise eyebrows and invite people to label his tour as a World Apology Tour.

1. Apology to France and Europe ("America Has Shown Arrogance")

Speech by President Obama, Rhenus Sports Arena, Strasbourg, France, April 3, 2009.[1]

So we must be honest with ourselves. In recent years we've allowed our Alliance to drift. I know that there have been honest disagreements over policy, but we also know that there's something more that has crept into our relationship. In America, there's a failure to appreciate Europe's leading role in the world. Instead of celebrating your dynamic union and seeking to partner with you to meet common challenges, there have been times where America has shown arrogance and been dismissive, even derisive.

2. Apology to the Muslim World ("We Have Not Been Perfect")

President Obama, interview with Al Arabiya, January 27, 2009.[2]

My job to the Muslim world is to communicate that the Americans are not your enemy. We sometimes make mistakes. We have not been perfect. But if you look at the track record, as you say, America was not born as a colonial power, and that the same respect and partnership that America had with the Muslim world as recently as 20 or 30 years ago, there's no reason why we can't restore that.

3. Apology to the Summit of the Americas ("At Times We Sought to Dictate Our Terms")

President Obama, address to the Summit of the Americas opening ceremony, Hyatt Regency, Port of Spain, Trinidad and Tobago, April 17, 2009.[3]

All of us must now renew the common stake that we have in one another. I know that promises of partnership have gone unfulfilled in the past, and that trust has to be earned over time. While the United States has done much to promote peace and prosperity in the hemisphere, we have at times been disengaged, and at times we sought to dictate our terms. But I pledge to you that we seek an equal partnership. There is no senior partner and junior partner in our relations; there is simply engagement based on mutual respect and common interests and shared values. So I'm here to launch a new chapter of engagement that will be sustained throughout my administration.

The United States will be willing to acknowledge past errors where those errors have been made.

4. Apology at the G-20 Summit of World Leaders ("Some Restoration of America's Standing in the World")

News conference by President Obama, ExCel Center, London, United Kingdom, April 2, 2009.[4]

I would like to think that with my election and the early decisions that we've made, that you're starting to see some restoration of America's standing in the world. And although, as you know, I always mistrust polls, international polls seem to indicate that you're seeing people more hopeful about America's leadership.

I just think in a world that is as complex as it is, that it is very important for us to be able to forge partnerships as opposed to simply dictating solutions. Just to try to crystallize the example, there's been a lot of comparison here about Bretton Woods. "Oh, well, last time you saw the entire international architecture being remade." Well, if there's just Roosevelt and Churchill sitting in a room with a brandy, that's an easier negotiation. But that's not the world we live in, and it shouldn't be the world that we live in.

5. Apology for the War on Terror ("We Went off Course")

President Obama, speech at the National Archives, Washington, D.C., May 21, 2009.[5]

Unfortunately, faced with an uncertain threat, our government made a series of hasty decisions. I believe that many of these decisions were motivated by a sincere desire to protect the American people. But I also believe that all too often our government made decisions based on fear rather than foresight; that all too often our government trimmed facts and evidence to fit ideological predispositions. Instead of strategically applying our power and our principles, too often we set those principles aside as luxuries that we could no longer afford. And during this season of fear, too many of us--Democrats and Republicans, politicians, journalists, and citizens--fell silent.

In other words, we went off course. And this is not my assessment alone. It was an assessment that was shared by the American people who nominated candidates for President from both major parties who, despite our many differences, called for a new approach--one that rejected torture and one that recognized the imperative of closing the prison at Guantanamo Bay.

6. Apology for Guantanamo in France ("Sacrificing Your Values")

Speech by President Obama, Rhenus Sports Arena, Strasbourg, France, April 3, 2009.[6]

Our two republics were founded in service of these ideals. In America, it is written into our founding documents as "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." In France: "Liberté"--absolutely--"egalité, fraternité." Our moral authority is derived from the fact that generations of our citizens have fought and bled to uphold these values in our nations and others. And that's why we can never sacrifice them for expedience's sake. That's why I've ordered the closing of the detention center in Guantanamo Bay. That's why I can stand here today and say without equivocation or exception that the United States of America does not and will not torture.

In dealing with terrorism, we can't lose sight of our values and who we are. That's why I closed Guantanamo. That's why I made very clear that we will not engage in certain interrogation practices. I don't believe that there is a contradiction between our security and our values. And when you start sacrificing your values, when you lose yourself, then over the long term that will make you less secure.

7. Apology before the Turkish Parliament ("Our Own Darker Periods in Our History")

Speech by President Obama to the Turkish Parliament, Ankara, Turkey, April 6, 2009.[7]

Every challenge that we face is more easily met if we tend to our own democratic foundation. This work is never over. That's why, in the United States, we recently ordered the prison at Guantanamo Bay closed. That's why we prohibited--without exception or equivocation--the use of torture. All of us have to change. And sometimes change is hard.

Another issue that confronts all democracies as they move to the future is how we deal with the past. The United States is still working through some of our own darker periods in our history. Facing the Washington Monument that I spoke of is a memorial of Abraham Lincoln, the man who freed those who were enslaved even after Washington led our Revolution. Our country still struggles with the legacies of slavery and segregation, the past treatment of Native Americans.

Human endeavor is by its nature imperfect. History is often tragic, but unresolved, it can be a heavy weight. Each country must work through its past. And reckoning with the past can help us seize a better future.

8. Apology for U.S. Policy toward the Americas ("The United States Has Not Pursued and Sustained Engagement with Our Neighbors")

Opinion editorial by President Obama: "Choosing a Better Future in the Americas," April 16, 2009.[8]

Too often, the United States has not pursued and sustained engagement with our neighbors. We have been too easily distracted by other priorities, and have failed to see that our own progress is tied directly to progress throughout the Americas. My Administration is committed to the promise of a new day. We will renew and sustain a broader partnership between the United States and the hemisphere on behalf of our common prosperity and our common security.

9. Apology for the Mistakes of the CIA ("Potentially We've Made Some Mistakes")

Remarks by the President to CIA employees, CIA Headquarters, Langley, Virginia, April 20, 2009.[9] The remarks followed the controversial decision to release Office of Legal Counsel memoranda detailing CIA enhanced interrogation techniques used against terrorist suspects.

So don't be discouraged by what's happened in the last few weeks. Don't be discouraged that we have to acknowledge potentially we've made some mistakes. That's how we learn. But the fact that we are willing to acknowledge them and then move forward, that is precisely why I am proud to be President of the United States, and that's why you should be proud to be members of the CIA.

10. Apology for Guantanamo in Washington ("A Rallying Cry for Our Enemies")

President Obama, speech at the National Archives, Washington, D.C., May 21, 2009.[10]

There is also no question that Guantanamo set back the moral authority that is America's strongest currency in the world. Instead of building a durable framework for the struggle against al Qaeda that drew upon our deeply held values and traditions, our government was defending positions that undermined the rule of law. In fact, part of the rationale for establishing Guantanamo in the first place was the misplaced notion that a prison there would be beyond the law--a proposition that the Supreme Court soundly rejected. Meanwhile, instead of serving as a tool to counter terrorism, Guantanamo became a symbol that helped al Qaeda recruit terrorists to its cause. Indeed, the existence of Guantanamo likely created more terrorists around the world than it ever detained.

So the record is clear: Rather than keeping us safer, the prison at Guantanamo has weakened American national security. It is a rallying cry for our enemies.


http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2009/06/barack-obamas-top-10-apologies-how-the-president-has-humiliated-a-superpower


You realize all of these were already debunked (put into context etc.) in the two politifact and washington post links I provided you with, right? How can you possibly simultaneously claim you take into account contradicting evidence and that he went on an apology tour when I provided you with two in-depth articles that show it's a flat out lie?


There's absolutely no such thing as a flat out lie when you argue over semantics.
"Power has no limits." -Tiberius
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
March 16 2012 01:45 GMT
#11082
On March 16 2012 10:17 Pillage wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2012 10:14 kwizach wrote:
On March 16 2012 06:06 xDaunt wrote:
On March 16 2012 06:00 DamnCats wrote:
On March 16 2012 05:59 xDaunt wrote:
On March 16 2012 05:44 Vega62a wrote:
On March 16 2012 05:19 xDaunt wrote:
On March 16 2012 05:00 Vega62a wrote:
On March 16 2012 04:11 xDaunt wrote:
Ironically, I find less fault with Obama's foreign policy than any other aspect of his presidency. Yeah, he shit all over a lot of our allies (particularly Britain and Israel), and his decision to announce a withdrawal date in Afghanistan was criminally stupid, but his administration has otherwise been almost indistinguishable from Bush's. He has basically run his foreign policy like a republican would, which I know irks a lot of democrats and liberals.


Please do not just post unsubstantiated ad hominems.

In what way did he shit all over Britain and Israel?

In what way was announcing a withdrawal date any more or less useful than simply pulling out unannounced? And in what way is that better or worse than continuing there indefinitely?

His foreign policy has generally placed more emphasis on "soft power" than did Bush's. That's not to say he's always been effective in it - he should have been exercising this mode of soft power against Iran years ago - but he's also not been throwing our muscle around. What is similar is only that neither Bush nor Obama had any qualms with foreign entanglements.

Why do I need to educate you on something that you should just know? It's no secret that the democrats are having trouble with the Jewish vote because of Obama's approach towards Israel. This was discussed ad nauseum when republicans won NY-9. Same thing with Britain. Hell, Kwark (British mod) even agreed with me at one point (I forget whether it was in this thread or elsewhere).


So your tactic is to make unsubstantiated claims, then claim "I should know already" when confronted about them?

Interesting...

Also, I'm pretty sure that if your statement about Kwark agreeing with you makes you feel like your claims are proven, you need to take a long, hard look at your standards of evidence.


I truly don't have time to educate people in this thread and fully brief my posts with citations to sources that support everything that I throw out, and I'm tired of people demanding that level of proof.

Go wallow in continued ignorance for all I care.


Does this mean I won't be receiving the links to a transcript or youtube video of a speech where Obama is apologizing for all sorts of nasty American things to a foreign audience?


See below. Taken in isolation, there's nothing wrong with any of the statements. However, when he's making these kinds of statements at every stop along the way, that's going to raise eyebrows and invite people to label his tour as a World Apology Tour.

1. Apology to France and Europe ("America Has Shown Arrogance")

Speech by President Obama, Rhenus Sports Arena, Strasbourg, France, April 3, 2009.[1]

So we must be honest with ourselves. In recent years we've allowed our Alliance to drift. I know that there have been honest disagreements over policy, but we also know that there's something more that has crept into our relationship. In America, there's a failure to appreciate Europe's leading role in the world. Instead of celebrating your dynamic union and seeking to partner with you to meet common challenges, there have been times where America has shown arrogance and been dismissive, even derisive.

2. Apology to the Muslim World ("We Have Not Been Perfect")

President Obama, interview with Al Arabiya, January 27, 2009.[2]

My job to the Muslim world is to communicate that the Americans are not your enemy. We sometimes make mistakes. We have not been perfect. But if you look at the track record, as you say, America was not born as a colonial power, and that the same respect and partnership that America had with the Muslim world as recently as 20 or 30 years ago, there's no reason why we can't restore that.

3. Apology to the Summit of the Americas ("At Times We Sought to Dictate Our Terms")

President Obama, address to the Summit of the Americas opening ceremony, Hyatt Regency, Port of Spain, Trinidad and Tobago, April 17, 2009.[3]

All of us must now renew the common stake that we have in one another. I know that promises of partnership have gone unfulfilled in the past, and that trust has to be earned over time. While the United States has done much to promote peace and prosperity in the hemisphere, we have at times been disengaged, and at times we sought to dictate our terms. But I pledge to you that we seek an equal partnership. There is no senior partner and junior partner in our relations; there is simply engagement based on mutual respect and common interests and shared values. So I'm here to launch a new chapter of engagement that will be sustained throughout my administration.

The United States will be willing to acknowledge past errors where those errors have been made.

4. Apology at the G-20 Summit of World Leaders ("Some Restoration of America's Standing in the World")

News conference by President Obama, ExCel Center, London, United Kingdom, April 2, 2009.[4]

I would like to think that with my election and the early decisions that we've made, that you're starting to see some restoration of America's standing in the world. And although, as you know, I always mistrust polls, international polls seem to indicate that you're seeing people more hopeful about America's leadership.

I just think in a world that is as complex as it is, that it is very important for us to be able to forge partnerships as opposed to simply dictating solutions. Just to try to crystallize the example, there's been a lot of comparison here about Bretton Woods. "Oh, well, last time you saw the entire international architecture being remade." Well, if there's just Roosevelt and Churchill sitting in a room with a brandy, that's an easier negotiation. But that's not the world we live in, and it shouldn't be the world that we live in.

5. Apology for the War on Terror ("We Went off Course")

President Obama, speech at the National Archives, Washington, D.C., May 21, 2009.[5]

Unfortunately, faced with an uncertain threat, our government made a series of hasty decisions. I believe that many of these decisions were motivated by a sincere desire to protect the American people. But I also believe that all too often our government made decisions based on fear rather than foresight; that all too often our government trimmed facts and evidence to fit ideological predispositions. Instead of strategically applying our power and our principles, too often we set those principles aside as luxuries that we could no longer afford. And during this season of fear, too many of us--Democrats and Republicans, politicians, journalists, and citizens--fell silent.

In other words, we went off course. And this is not my assessment alone. It was an assessment that was shared by the American people who nominated candidates for President from both major parties who, despite our many differences, called for a new approach--one that rejected torture and one that recognized the imperative of closing the prison at Guantanamo Bay.

6. Apology for Guantanamo in France ("Sacrificing Your Values")

Speech by President Obama, Rhenus Sports Arena, Strasbourg, France, April 3, 2009.[6]

Our two republics were founded in service of these ideals. In America, it is written into our founding documents as "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." In France: "Liberté"--absolutely--"egalité, fraternité." Our moral authority is derived from the fact that generations of our citizens have fought and bled to uphold these values in our nations and others. And that's why we can never sacrifice them for expedience's sake. That's why I've ordered the closing of the detention center in Guantanamo Bay. That's why I can stand here today and say without equivocation or exception that the United States of America does not and will not torture.

In dealing with terrorism, we can't lose sight of our values and who we are. That's why I closed Guantanamo. That's why I made very clear that we will not engage in certain interrogation practices. I don't believe that there is a contradiction between our security and our values. And when you start sacrificing your values, when you lose yourself, then over the long term that will make you less secure.

7. Apology before the Turkish Parliament ("Our Own Darker Periods in Our History")

Speech by President Obama to the Turkish Parliament, Ankara, Turkey, April 6, 2009.[7]

Every challenge that we face is more easily met if we tend to our own democratic foundation. This work is never over. That's why, in the United States, we recently ordered the prison at Guantanamo Bay closed. That's why we prohibited--without exception or equivocation--the use of torture. All of us have to change. And sometimes change is hard.

Another issue that confronts all democracies as they move to the future is how we deal with the past. The United States is still working through some of our own darker periods in our history. Facing the Washington Monument that I spoke of is a memorial of Abraham Lincoln, the man who freed those who were enslaved even after Washington led our Revolution. Our country still struggles with the legacies of slavery and segregation, the past treatment of Native Americans.

Human endeavor is by its nature imperfect. History is often tragic, but unresolved, it can be a heavy weight. Each country must work through its past. And reckoning with the past can help us seize a better future.

8. Apology for U.S. Policy toward the Americas ("The United States Has Not Pursued and Sustained Engagement with Our Neighbors")

Opinion editorial by President Obama: "Choosing a Better Future in the Americas," April 16, 2009.[8]

Too often, the United States has not pursued and sustained engagement with our neighbors. We have been too easily distracted by other priorities, and have failed to see that our own progress is tied directly to progress throughout the Americas. My Administration is committed to the promise of a new day. We will renew and sustain a broader partnership between the United States and the hemisphere on behalf of our common prosperity and our common security.

9. Apology for the Mistakes of the CIA ("Potentially We've Made Some Mistakes")

Remarks by the President to CIA employees, CIA Headquarters, Langley, Virginia, April 20, 2009.[9] The remarks followed the controversial decision to release Office of Legal Counsel memoranda detailing CIA enhanced interrogation techniques used against terrorist suspects.

So don't be discouraged by what's happened in the last few weeks. Don't be discouraged that we have to acknowledge potentially we've made some mistakes. That's how we learn. But the fact that we are willing to acknowledge them and then move forward, that is precisely why I am proud to be President of the United States, and that's why you should be proud to be members of the CIA.

10. Apology for Guantanamo in Washington ("A Rallying Cry for Our Enemies")

President Obama, speech at the National Archives, Washington, D.C., May 21, 2009.[10]

There is also no question that Guantanamo set back the moral authority that is America's strongest currency in the world. Instead of building a durable framework for the struggle against al Qaeda that drew upon our deeply held values and traditions, our government was defending positions that undermined the rule of law. In fact, part of the rationale for establishing Guantanamo in the first place was the misplaced notion that a prison there would be beyond the law--a proposition that the Supreme Court soundly rejected. Meanwhile, instead of serving as a tool to counter terrorism, Guantanamo became a symbol that helped al Qaeda recruit terrorists to its cause. Indeed, the existence of Guantanamo likely created more terrorists around the world than it ever detained.

So the record is clear: Rather than keeping us safer, the prison at Guantanamo has weakened American national security. It is a rallying cry for our enemies.


http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2009/06/barack-obamas-top-10-apologies-how-the-president-has-humiliated-a-superpower


You realize all of these were already debunked (put into context etc.) in the two politifact and washington post links I provided you with, right? How can you possibly simultaneously claim you take into account contradicting evidence and that he went on an apology tour when I provided you with two in-depth articles that show it's a flat out lie?


There's absolutely no such thing as a flat out lie when you argue over semantics.

We are not arguing semantics, unless he uses a definition of "apology" different from the one in the Merriam-Webster dictionary. In that case, I'd like to hear it.
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
Pillage
Profile Joined July 2011
United States804 Posts
March 16 2012 03:47 GMT
#11083
We're not looking at the definition of the word, we're looking to see if Obama's actions fit the definition of an apology. You can argue either side, and you should realize that the opinions of media sources are what they are, opinions. That's the point I was trying to make.
"Power has no limits." -Tiberius
omgimonfire15
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States233 Posts
March 16 2012 05:37 GMT
#11084
On a side note, by declaring war on porn, I think Santorum has lost the internets vote, regardless of whether it is good or not.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/rick-santorum-wants-ban-hardcore-pornography-222833811.html
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 16 2012 05:54 GMT
#11085
When did Santorum ever have the Internet vote? Also swell to see another Republican who claims to despise big government yet has no problem forcing their noses into people private lives.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
don_kyuhote
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
3007 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-16 06:05:15
March 16 2012 05:55 GMT
#11086
You look at a guy like Santorum and wonder whos more pathetic? Him? or the guys who can't beat him?
Santorum and Romney are just too hilarious.
Santorum endorsed Romney in 2008 primary, saying how Mitt is hitting his stride and he is a real conservative.
And now he completely flip-flops because he wants to be President.
And I thought Mitt Romney was the flip-flopper.

Watching this video cracked me up.
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
March 16 2012 09:52 GMT
#11087
On March 16 2012 12:47 Pillage wrote:
We're not looking at the definition of the word, we're looking to see if Obama's actions fit the definition of an apology. You can argue either side, and you should realize that the opinions of media sources are what they are, opinions. That's the point I was trying to make.

Again, no, that's not a matter of opinion, given the precise nature of the definition of an apology. Whether or not he went around the world apologizing can be factually established, and the answer is he did not.
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
BioNova
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States598 Posts
March 16 2012 16:11 GMT
#11088
Obama for America has already invested millions of dollars in sophisticated Internet messaging, marketing and fundraising efforts that rely on personal data sometimes offered up voluntarily — like posts on a Facebook page— but sometimes not.

And according to a campaign official and former Obama staffer, the campaign’s Chicago-based headquarters has built a centralized digital database of information about millions of potential Obama voters.

It all means Obama is finding it easier than ever to merge offline data, such as voter files and information purchased from data brokers, with online information to target people with messages that may appeal to their personal tastes. Privacy advocates say it’s just the sort of digital snooping that his new privacy project is supposed to discourage.

But this is what campaigning for president looks like in 2012. Gone are the days when campaigns cataloged voters and their preferences with index cards and filing cabinets. It’s even a quantum leap forward from 2008, when campaigns struggled to link individual voters across databases. And Republican presidential candidates are using some of the same high-tech tools.

There’s an added twist for Obama: He’s making these moves at the same moment his administration is pushing the virtues of online privacy, last month proposing a consumer bill of rights to protect it.


Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0312/74095.html#ixzz1pISTaVlJ


Where did that irony thread go?
I used to like trumpets, now I prefer pause. "Don't move a muscle JP!"
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-16 16:26:28
March 16 2012 16:25 GMT
#11089
On March 17 2012 01:11 BioNova wrote:
Show nested quote +
Obama for America has already invested millions of dollars in sophisticated Internet messaging, marketing and fundraising efforts that rely on personal data sometimes offered up voluntarily — like posts on a Facebook page— but sometimes not.

And according to a campaign official and former Obama staffer, the campaign’s Chicago-based headquarters has built a centralized digital database of information about millions of potential Obama voters.

It all means Obama is finding it easier than ever to merge offline data, such as voter files and information purchased from data brokers, with online information to target people with messages that may appeal to their personal tastes. Privacy advocates say it’s just the sort of digital snooping that his new privacy project is supposed to discourage.

But this is what campaigning for president looks like in 2012. Gone are the days when campaigns cataloged voters and their preferences with index cards and filing cabinets. It’s even a quantum leap forward from 2008, when campaigns struggled to link individual voters across databases. And Republican presidential candidates are using some of the same high-tech tools.

There’s an added twist for Obama: He’s making these moves at the same moment his administration is pushing the virtues of online privacy, last month proposing a consumer bill of rights to protect it.


Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0312/74095.html#ixzz1pISTaVlJ


Where did that irony thread go?

I fail to see the irony. His administration is pushing for increased online privacy, but until the bills pass and to have a chance to compete in the election he has to use those techniques just like his opponents do. It's the exact same thing for Super PACs: he's critical of the Citizens United ruling, but as it is he's forced to "play the game" to be able to compete with others who don't share his reluctance to get help from Super PACs, otherwise he'd be at a major disadvantage.
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
BioNova
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States598 Posts
March 16 2012 16:46 GMT
#11090
On March 17 2012 01:25 kwizach wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 17 2012 01:11 BioNova wrote:
Obama for America has already invested millions of dollars in sophisticated Internet messaging, marketing and fundraising efforts that rely on personal data sometimes offered up voluntarily — like posts on a Facebook page— but sometimes not.

And according to a campaign official and former Obama staffer, the campaign’s Chicago-based headquarters has built a centralized digital database of information about millions of potential Obama voters.

It all means Obama is finding it easier than ever to merge offline data, such as voter files and information purchased from data brokers, with online information to target people with messages that may appeal to their personal tastes. Privacy advocates say it’s just the sort of digital snooping that his new privacy project is supposed to discourage.

But this is what campaigning for president looks like in 2012. Gone are the days when campaigns cataloged voters and their preferences with index cards and filing cabinets. It’s even a quantum leap forward from 2008, when campaigns struggled to link individual voters across databases. And Republican presidential candidates are using some of the same high-tech tools.

There’s an added twist for Obama: He’s making these moves at the same moment his administration is pushing the virtues of online privacy, last month proposing a consumer bill of rights to protect it.


Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0312/74095.html#ixzz1pISTaVlJ


Where did that irony thread go?

I fail to see the irony. His administration is pushing for increased online privacy, but until the bills pass and to have a chance to compete in the election he has to use those techniques just like his opponents do. It's the exact same thing for Super PACs: he's critical of the Citizens United ruling, but as it is he's forced to "play the game" to be able to compete with others who don't share his reluctance to get help from Super PACs, otherwise he'd be at a major disadvantage.


I'm sorry. I guess it boils down to perspective. Saying one thing while actively doing another. Perhaps you should redefine my statement, and I'll play from there with a -1

Example: Where did that hypocracy thread go? See, seems harsh, which is why I will let you lead.

I sincerely appreciate his reluctance to use PAC cash.
I used to like trumpets, now I prefer pause. "Don't move a muscle JP!"
Pillage
Profile Joined July 2011
United States804 Posts
March 16 2012 17:30 GMT
#11091
On March 16 2012 18:52 kwizach wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2012 12:47 Pillage wrote:
We're not looking at the definition of the word, we're looking to see if Obama's actions fit the definition of an apology. You can argue either side, and you should realize that the opinions of media sources are what they are, opinions. That's the point I was trying to make.

Again, no, that's not a matter of opinion, given the precise nature of the definition of an apology. Whether or not he went around the world apologizing can be factually established, and the answer is he did not.


You cannot hope to factually establish anything without concise data. Definitions are just what the majority agree upon, so they can be argued either way like I'm doing now. Even if you think I'm wrong about this, there's no absolute method for proving me wrong. That's how semantics work, because it's a words game, not a numbers game.
"Power has no limits." -Tiberius
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-16 18:10:12
March 16 2012 17:47 GMT
#11092
On March 17 2012 02:30 Pillage wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2012 18:52 kwizach wrote:
On March 16 2012 12:47 Pillage wrote:
We're not looking at the definition of the word, we're looking to see if Obama's actions fit the definition of an apology. You can argue either side, and you should realize that the opinions of media sources are what they are, opinions. That's the point I was trying to make.

Again, no, that's not a matter of opinion, given the precise nature of the definition of an apology. Whether or not he went around the world apologizing can be factually established, and the answer is he did not.


You cannot hope to factually establish anything without concise data. Definitions are just what the majority agree upon, so they can be argued either way like I'm doing now. Even if you think I'm wrong about this, there's no absolute method for proving me wrong. That's how semantics work, because it's a words game, not a numbers game.

Again, if xDaunt (or you) is using a definition of "apology" different from the one provided by the Merriam-Webster dictionary, he is very welcome to present it here. In the meantime, the data available regarding the speeches given by Obama around the world allows one to directly verify whether his tour qualifies as an "apology tour" based on the Merriam-Webster definition of apology, which is sufficiently precise to permit such a verification. The answer is no, it definitely and unambiguously does not qualify as an "apology tour", as politifact and the WaPo's fact-checker have shown, making the claim that he went on an "apology tour" a lie. Unless xDaunt and you are using a different definition of "apology", nobody is arguing semantics and xDaunt is wrong.
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
Doublemint
Profile Joined July 2011
Austria8760 Posts
March 16 2012 18:10 GMT
#11093
"apology tour"...if by using that you mean "picking up the pieces Bush, his buddies and former administations left" then I kind of agree. All nice and dandy preserving your interests and freedom around the world. But while doing so - at least try not to step on other people´s. After all, you are the good guys - right?
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before the fall.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
March 16 2012 18:15 GMT
#11094
It takes a lot of courage to apologize.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Defacer
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada5052 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-17 08:24:33
March 16 2012 18:35 GMT
#11095
double post

Defacer
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada5052 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-16 18:37:01
March 16 2012 18:36 GMT
#11096

In other news, Santorum can throw down.

Santorum in Missouri

“On the life issue,” Santorum said of Romney, “this is a man who gave money to Planned Parenthood, personal checks, who on every race he ran until he started to run for president filled out 100 percent pro-choice, and then at the end of his governor’s term when he decided to run for president, he had a conversion.”

“Wonderful,” Santorum continued, a sarcastic edge to his voice. “I’m happy for him. But also at the end of his term his economic team gave low-interest loans to Planned Parenthood to build a clinic in Massachusetts after his conversion.”


“If you look at where my Republican opponent has won, it’s always in and around the cities. It almost looks like a Republican versus a Democrat,” Santorum said, referring to some states that he did not explicitly name. “He’s winning the areas the Democrats win and I win the areas Republicans win.”

Santorum paused for a moment. “Does that tell you something maybe?”
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 17 2012 22:21 GMT
#11097
Two men who kissed one another were kicked out of presidential candidate Rick Santorum’s rally Friday evening at Christian Liberty Academy in Arlington Heights.

Santorum was 15 minutes into his speech when the two men shouted and got the attention of the crowd. They exchanged a kiss, prompting guards to eject them and the crowd to chant “U-S-A” while they were leaving the gym.

When asked whether the kiss was a public display of affection or merely a symbolic act, Timothy Tross of Lombard and Ben Clifford of Algonquin, declined to comment.

“I don’t think the message should be about what my sexuality is,” Tross said. “It’s the message that he’s saying about sexuality that matters.”

About 50 protesters lined the street before the rally with signs that read “LGBT No H8,” “Catholics Against Santorum” and “If I incorporate myself, would you treat me like a person?” LGBT activist Matt Muchowski, who created the Facebook group “Carmel Catholic Alumni Against Rick Santorum,” planned the protest.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 18 2012 01:45 GMT
#11098
Police and organizers shut down proceedings at one of Missouri's largest caucuses today, as Ron Paul supporters feuded with local GOP leaders.

"It's like the Hatfields and the McCoys around here," St. Charles County's former GOP chairman told ABC News, after police arrived on-scene with a helicopter and removed Paul backers.

In St. Charles, an exurb of St. Louis and one of the state's largest GOP counties, Paul supporters sought to elect their own chairman and adopt their own rules when proceedings opened - both of which are part of standard caucus rules and procedure. But as they argued with the caucus chair, Paul supporters held video cameras - against caucus rules, according to a GOP official who was there - and things became contentious.

"It turned into a little food fight within the caucus, between the caucus chairman trying to control the caucus and certain elements, I guess with Ron Paul, trying to be heard," said Tom Kipers, a former chairman of the St. Charles GOP, who attended the caucus at Francis Howell North High School.

An off-duty police officer, hired as security, eventually fielded a trespassing complaint against the Paul supporters and notified on-duty police in the area municipality of St. Peters, who, along with police from other jurisdictions, arrested two Paul supporters and ended the caucuses early. A joint-jurisdictional police helicopter arrived on the scene. Kipers said about 10 officers arrived in total.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
BioNova
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States598 Posts
March 18 2012 02:06 GMT
#11099
On March 18 2012 10:45 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
Police and organizers shut down proceedings at one of Missouri's largest caucuses today, as Ron Paul supporters feuded with local GOP leaders.

"It's like the Hatfields and the McCoys around here," St. Charles County's former GOP chairman told ABC News, after police arrived on-scene with a helicopter and removed Paul backers.

In St. Charles, an exurb of St. Louis and one of the state's largest GOP counties, Paul supporters sought to elect their own chairman and adopt their own rules when proceedings opened - both of which are part of standard caucus rules and procedure. But as they argued with the caucus chair, Paul supporters held video cameras - against caucus rules, according to a GOP official who was there - and things became contentious.

"It turned into a little food fight within the caucus, between the caucus chairman trying to control the caucus and certain elements, I guess with Ron Paul, trying to be heard," said Tom Kipers, a former chairman of the St. Charles GOP, who attended the caucus at Francis Howell North High School.

An off-duty police officer, hired as security, eventually fielded a trespassing complaint against the Paul supporters and notified on-duty police in the area municipality of St. Peters, who, along with police from other jurisdictions, arrested two Paul supporters and ended the caucuses early. A joint-jurisdictional police helicopter arrived on the scene. Kipers said about 10 officers arrived in total.


Source


From Brent Stafford(released from jail)
+ Show Spoiler +
This is Brent Stafford. I wanted to let everyone know I am out of jail and am just now starting to read some of the posts about what happened today.

I am actually in my car right now, so I will post more complete details when I get to someplace where I can take more time.

First of all, thank you to everyone who was concerned and calling the police station. Apparently they were getting flooded with calls.

I was trying to reconvene the meeting in the gymnasium, according to the rules, and was told I have the leave the gym along with everyone else or I would be trespassing. I went outside and tried to let everyone know we were going to try to reconvene. Some people we trying to go to a nearby park to do so, but the rules are clear the the caucus may only be held in the location printed in the Call to Caucus printed in a newspaper 15 days prior. The ONLY place we could reconvene was at the high school.

I stood on a chair to address the crowd to let them know we were going to reconvene and what we needed to do. At that point I was approached by told I was under arrest.

More to come...

--------------- Update

Okay, I have a minute, and a beer! Here is the saga.

There are three main culprits to today fiasco. Eugene Dokes - St. Charles County Republican Committee Chairman, Bryan Spencer - Chairman of the Caucus Committee for the St. Charles County GOP (he organized the caucus), and Matt Ehlen - The guy the installed as Chairman and who ended the meeting before conducting any business.

I approached Bryan Spencer several times, prior to the commencement of the caucus, to point out where things that were being planned violated the rules. He said, "We are going to do it this way, challenge it if you want." He is the one that was trying to rig the process to select delegates proportionally based on who was in attendance. They conducted a straw poll as people were checked in, in violation of State GOP rules.

The meeting was supposed to begin at 10:00am. There were so many people still in line that by the time the meeting was ready to start it was just after 11:00am.

Eugene Dokes started the meeting by immediately declaring there would be no video or audio recording allowed, and that if anyone refused to stop, they would be removed by police. The entire room of what has been reported as over 2,500 people began booing and demanding that recording be allowed. It was not just Ron Paul people.

Eugene Dokes then refused to commence the meeting until everyone stopped recording. I made multiple attempts to make a point of order to address the situation, but he refused to acknowledge me. He then left the podium and called the police.

There were St. Peters Police, St. Charles Police, St. Charles County Sheriffs, and Missouri Highway Patrol that eventually came into the gymnasium and through threat of arrest made everyone turn off their cameras. Of course many did not.

Eugene Dokes then started to convene the meeting a second time.

Let me digress a moment. We had prepared very well ahead of time. I won't get into all of the details, but the Mitt Romney people agreed to support me for Chairman. This was an incredible vote of confidence in my ability to chair and to convene a fair process. I had also hire the President of the Missouri Association of Parliamentarians who I intended to appoint for that role. I never got that chance.

Eugene Dokes appointed the Creditials Committee, Rules Committee, and Parliamentarian. These are all appointments made by the elected Chairman, not the temporary Chair which is what Eugene Dokes was acting as. The body loudly booed and started making all kinds of points of order and other declarations of disgust at the blatant disregard for the proper process.

He then opened the floor for nominations. I immediately started nominating myself multiple times. He recognized a woman, who was obviously preselected, who nominated Matt Ehlen. At that point about 2,000 people started chanting my name to be appointed. Eugene Dokes ignored that and called a hasty voice vote and declared the one nominee, Matt Ehlen, as the Chair.

Hundreds of people started calling for Division of the vote. Eugene Dokes ignored them all.

Matt Ehlen took the podium and tried to regain order. After anout 20 seconds he declared that St. Charles County would not send any delegates to the CD and State Conventions. He quickly found motions to adjourn and closed the meeting.

At that point I went to grab the parliamentarian I had hired. She had not been allowed inside, because of an arbitrary rule Bryan Spencer made up, but I had checked in with her by sticking my head through the door of and on earlier. I told her to come with me and I headed to the podium. I asked her how to reconvene and since no business had been conducted according to the Call to Convention, we had every right to reconvene.

I took the microphone and announced that people should not leave and that we would reconvene the meeting. Eugene Dokes came up and unplugged the microphone. At that point the police began ordering people out of the gymnasium.

At that point I went outside to try to reconvene the caucus, according to the rules. A number of people were going to go to another location to reconvene. I had to stop those that had not left and explained that we were required to convene at the location published 15 days prior in the newspaper or it would be invalid.

I then found where the biggest crowd had gathered and began to address the crowd. Everyone got quiet to hear me. There were 300-400 people there. I explained very quickly that we needed to begin collecting a roster, as required, and what that meant. I was immediately approached by 4 or 5 police of unknown jurisdictions who made me step down from the chair and put me into handcuffs.

When I asked what I was being arrested for, or if I was being arrested, I was told they would tell me later. Eventually I was booked for trespassing and released.

The actions of Eugene Doke, Bryan Spencer, and Matt Ehlen were the direct cause of the event getting out of control. They have tried to shift the blame, but it is all on them. If they had conducted the meeting according to Robert's Rules and the proper order of the agenda, none of this would have happened.
I used to like trumpets, now I prefer pause. "Don't move a muscle JP!"
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 18 2012 18:06 GMT
#11100
Rick Santorum doubled down Sunday on a campaign promise to crack down on the distribution of explicit pornography if elected president, saying exposure to the content "can be very damaging."

A position paper on Santorum's campaign website argues that current obscenity laws already prohibit the distribution of "hardcore (obscene) pornography," and that the Obama administration has failed to enforce these restrictions. As president, Santorum says he would instruct his attorney general to prosecute those who distribute content his administration deems "obscene."

"We would, of course, as president enforce those laws, because obviously Congress in its wisdom understood that hardcore pornography is very damaging, particularly to young people, and that exposure on the Internet can be very damaging," Santorum said during an interview on ABC's "This Week." "There are laws against purveying hard-core pornography. And that--we have attorney generals in the country, at least under the Bush administration, who did prosecute that. And this administration isn't. And I simply said I would follow the law, which I know in the case of Barack Obama can be somewhat of a hefty challenge for him, but we're going to do it as president."


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
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