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Republican nominations - Page 306

Forum Index > General Forum
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Haemonculus
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
United States6980 Posts
January 19 2012 00:07 GMT
#6101
Honestly I think you all are just getting hardcore trolled by this idiot, lol
I admire your commitment to being *very* oily
acker
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2958 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-19 00:11:10
January 19 2012 00:08 GMT
#6102
On January 19 2012 09:05 Hider wrote:
Through monopsopny (cant read wikipedia) compeition between selling companies should be tougher hence they will sell to a lower price. If prices on their goods goes up the buying company can buy less and hence hire less people. I fail to see how this is not just another redestributing of wealth?

I'm extremely close to punching my computer.

Before we get to monopsonies, do you have any idea WHY minimum wages above the equilibrium wage destroy production in a perfectly competitive model?

On January 19 2012 09:07 Haemonculus wrote:
Honestly I think you all are just getting hardcore trolled by this idiot, lol

I'm starting to think this way, too. I'm hoping he was trolling intentionally, not unintentionally. I'd lose faith in the Danish education system if it was unintentional.


Actually, I give up. It's Denmark that has to deal with him, not the United States.
allecto
Profile Joined November 2010
328 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-19 00:09:40
January 19 2012 00:08 GMT
#6103
This was an epic troll.

Edit: My thoughts exactly Haemonculus.

This was a decent discussion about 5 pages ago...
ikl2
Profile Joined September 2010
United States145 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-19 00:11:51
January 19 2012 00:09 GMT
#6104
Here we go! I found the way (finally) to express what my problem is.

So you're modeling not the flow of money as if it's a mindless, automatic force. Instead, you're modeling how human beings move capital. Unless you have some analytic truths about how human beings act (remembering that for your claim not to rely on empirical reality, it has to be true 100% of the time with no logically possible cases of it being false), then you absolutely must rely on empirical data to make a point. It seems to me that in my Widgetmaster case, the employees aren't actually acting 'rationally' in the sense I suspect you'd use it, and thus that wouldn't work exceedingly well in the kind of model you're using.

Edit: I don't think my end of the discussion is getting trolled, is it? I know from discussion with some of the more, uh, interesting libertarians, that the extreme types think that human behaviour can be modeled a priori and that empirical data is not only irrelevant but misleading. It's a position actual people hold, somehow...
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9420 Posts
January 19 2012 00:11 GMT
#6105
On January 19 2012 09:03 acker wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2012 09:00 Hider wrote:

Yes its the same. I jsut throught real value of the employee made more sense for people having not taking a economic class, but I might have been wrong. Equlitbrium wage is normally defined though as suply = demand.


You do realize that if you're defining real value as the equilibrium wage...

Look, have you ever taken an introductory microecon class?


Why are you so obseesed with microecnomics? Did you just finish one? When you get older you will (most likely, or at least I hope) realize that the exact names of the concepts matters shit. Whether you have taken a microenomic or whatever economic class doesn't matter for the sake of this assumption. But the name "real value of employee" imo makes a lot of sense. Because in the end, that is the the real value. But I guess it might be easy to confuse that term with real value of money.

Now stop asking questions about microecon, yes i did take one some years ago, and i got top grade.

SoLaR[i.C]
Profile Blog Joined August 2003
United States2969 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-19 00:12:58
January 19 2012 00:11 GMT
#6106
acker, please stop using the question "have you taken ____ class?" as an insult. It's annoying and has no bearing when the question at hand ultimately has different answers depending upon what you view as ideal or moral. Milton Friedman had a nobel prize in economics and wrote pages upon pages of why he thought minimum wage laws were inherently counterproductive. Would you give him the same "have you taken ____ class?" insult?
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9420 Posts
January 19 2012 00:13 GMT
#6107
On January 19 2012 09:08 acker wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2012 09:05 Hider wrote:
Through monopsopny (cant read wikipedia) compeition between selling companies should be tougher hence they will sell to a lower price. If prices on their goods goes up the buying company can buy less and hence hire less people. I fail to see how this is not just another redestributing of wealth?

I'm extremely close to punching my computer.

Before we get to monopsonies, do you have any idea WHY minimum wages above the equilibrium wage destroy production in a perfectly competitive model?

Show nested quote +
On January 19 2012 09:07 Haemonculus wrote:
Honestly I think you all are just getting hardcore trolled by this idiot, lol

I'm starting to think this way, too. I'm hoping he was trolling intentionally, not unintentionally. I'd lose faith in the Danish education system if it was unintentional.


Actually, I give up. It's Denmark that has to deal with him, not the United States.


I give up. I written countless times the problem with minimum wages. Either I am not good at expressing my views or your not good at reading (probably combination).

Lol just saw you gave up as well...
allecto
Profile Joined November 2010
328 Posts
January 19 2012 00:13 GMT
#6108
On January 19 2012 09:11 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:
acker, please stop using the question "have you taken ____ class?" as an insult. It's annoying and has no bearing when the question at hand ultimately has different answers depending upon what you view as ideal or moral. Milton Friedman had a nobel prize in economics and wrote pages upon pages of why he thought minimum wage laws were ultimately counterproductive. Would you give him the same "have you taken ____ class?" insult?


I'm against minimum wages but I think that Milton Friedman would agree that minimum wage laws are effective in monopsonies for example. Anyway moving on.
acker
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2958 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-19 00:14:48
January 19 2012 00:14 GMT
#6109
On January 19 2012 09:11 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:
acker, please stop using the question "have you taken ____ class?" as an insult. It's annoying and has no bearing when the question at hand ultimately has different answers depending upon what you view as ideal or moral. Milton Friedman had a nobel prize in economics and wrote pages upon pages of why he thought minimum wage laws were ultimately counterproductive. Would you give him the same "have you taken ____ class?" insult?


I was actually going to ask for the resurrection of Milton Friedman. His arguments on the national minimum wage were contingent on the market structure of the United States, which this guy fails to be getting; that it was closer to perfect competition than it was to, well, not perfect competition. He actually got what DWL was.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
January 19 2012 00:14 GMT
#6110
Looks like ABC has an interview with one of Newt's ex-wives that could end his campaign.
Haemonculus
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
United States6980 Posts
January 19 2012 00:16 GMT
#6111
The free market crap makes sense in incredibly simplistic terms in theory. Company A charges X for a product, and pays its workers Y. Company B also charges X for a product, but pays its workers Y+1. All employees just switch from A to B, and bam, the free market is good for workers! Huzzahs all around!

This shit literally never happens in reality.
I admire your commitment to being *very* oily
radiatoren
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Denmark1907 Posts
January 19 2012 00:16 GMT
#6112
On January 19 2012 09:08 acker wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2012 09:05 Hider wrote:
Through monopsopny (cant read wikipedia) compeition between selling companies should be tougher hence they will sell to a lower price. If prices on their goods goes up the buying company can buy less and hence hire less people. I fail to see how this is not just another redestributing of wealth?

I'm extremely close to punching my computer.

Before we get to monopsonies, do you have any idea WHY minimum wages above the equilibrium wage destroy production in a perfectly competitive model?

Show nested quote +
On January 19 2012 09:07 Haemonculus wrote:
Honestly I think you all are just getting hardcore trolled by this idiot, lol

I'm starting to think this way, too. I'm hoping he was trolling intentionally, not unintentionally. I'd lose faith in the Danish education system if it was unintentional.


Actually, I give up. It's Denmark that has to deal with him, not the United States.


He is not representative of anything in Denmark. I denounce any affliation with him.

It has to be said though that more advanced economics is not part of standard education. That is no excuse for claiming that the world is wrong and governments are pure evil, though.
Repeat before me
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9420 Posts
January 19 2012 00:19 GMT
#6113
On January 19 2012 09:09 ikl2 wrote:
Here we go! I found the way (finally) to express what my problem is.

So you're modeling not the flow of money as if it's a mindless, automatic force. Instead, you're modeling how human beings move capital. Unless you have some analytic truths about how human beings act (remembering that for your claim not to rely on empirical reality, it has to be true 100% of the time with no logically possible cases of it being false), then you absolutely must rely on empirical data to make a point. It seems to me that in my Widgetmaster case, the employees aren't actually acting 'rationally' in the sense I suspect you'd use it, and thus that wouldn't work exceedingly well in the kind of model you're using.

Edit: I don't think my end of the discussion is getting trolled, is it? I know from discussion with some of the more, uh, interesting libertarians, that the extreme types think that human behaviour can be modeled a priori and that empirical data is not only irrelevant but misleading. It's a position actual people hold, somehow...


Why would it be getting trolled. You used a lot of time to to express your problem, so obv. it wasn't that easy a task.
The thing is with empirical cases. Lets say we use the induction proces. All swans are white. Obv. that isn't true, but if your only statistics come from a certain geographical area then you will think that since 100% of your observations states that the swans are white then that must be true.

What if the employees aren't rational. I never assumed they were. What does that change? No wealth is still created.
darthfoley
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States8004 Posts
January 19 2012 00:20 GMT
#6114
On January 19 2012 09:14 xDaunt wrote:
Looks like ABC has an interview with one of Newt's ex-wives that could end his campaign.


let's try to talk about the candidates between the crossfire of people arguing i dont even know what anymore.
watch the wall collide with my fist, mostly over problems that i know i should fix
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9420 Posts
January 19 2012 00:23 GMT
#6115
On January 19 2012 09:16 radiatoren wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2012 09:08 acker wrote:
On January 19 2012 09:05 Hider wrote:
Through monopsopny (cant read wikipedia) compeition between selling companies should be tougher hence they will sell to a lower price. If prices on their goods goes up the buying company can buy less and hence hire less people. I fail to see how this is not just another redestributing of wealth?

I'm extremely close to punching my computer.

Before we get to monopsonies, do you have any idea WHY minimum wages above the equilibrium wage destroy production in a perfectly competitive model?

On January 19 2012 09:07 Haemonculus wrote:
Honestly I think you all are just getting hardcore trolled by this idiot, lol

I'm starting to think this way, too. I'm hoping he was trolling intentionally, not unintentionally. I'd lose faith in the Danish education system if it was unintentional.


Actually, I give up. It's Denmark that has to deal with him, not the United States.


He is not representative of anything in Denmark. I denounce any affliation with him.

It has to be said though that more advanced economics is not part of standard education. That is no excuse for claiming that the world is wrong and governments are pure evil, though.


Yeh some people can actually think for them selves. Your a smart guy radiatoren, no doubt, but from my observatiosn of you, you seem to have a giant need of being accepted by other people, and hence your afraid to think for your self. What value are you creating by these posts? Just to annoy me? and by annoying me you feel accepted since other people might agree with you? If at least you were pariticipating in a discussion, but your not. Your just throwing out random valueless comments.
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9420 Posts
January 19 2012 00:23 GMT
#6116
On January 19 2012 09:16 Haemonculus wrote:
The free market crap makes sense in incredibly simplistic terms in theory. Company A charges X for a product, and pays its workers Y. Company B also charges X for a product, but pays its workers Y+1. All employees just switch from A to B, and bam, the free market is good for workers! Huzzahs all around!

This shit literally never happens in reality.


Free market =/ markets are 100% efficient.
ikl2
Profile Joined September 2010
United States145 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-19 00:25:30
January 19 2012 00:23 GMT
#6117
On January 19 2012 09:19 Hider wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2012 09:09 ikl2 wrote:
Here we go! I found the way (finally) to express what my problem is.

So you're modeling not the flow of money as if it's a mindless, automatic force. Instead, you're modeling how human beings move capital. Unless you have some analytic truths about how human beings act (remembering that for your claim not to rely on empirical reality, it has to be true 100% of the time with no logically possible cases of it being false), then you absolutely must rely on empirical data to make a point. It seems to me that in my Widgetmaster case, the employees aren't actually acting 'rationally' in the sense I suspect you'd use it, and thus that wouldn't work exceedingly well in the kind of model you're using.

Edit: I don't think my end of the discussion is getting trolled, is it? I know from discussion with some of the more, uh, interesting libertarians, that the extreme types think that human behaviour can be modeled a priori and that empirical data is not only irrelevant but misleading. It's a position actual people hold, somehow...


Why would it be getting trolled. You used a lot of time to to express your problem, so obv. it wasn't that easy a task.
The thing is with empirical cases. Lets say we use the induction proces. All swans are white. Obv. that isn't true, but if your only statistics come from a certain geographical area then you will think that since 100% of your observations states that the swans are white then that must be true.

What if the employees aren't rational. I never assumed they were. What does that change? No wealth is still created.


Yes, induction has problems - this is not news. That does not mean we should only ever work from analytically true premises and reason deductively; we wouldn't get very far, and we should skeptical of quite a bit if we want to bite that bullet and not believe anything that we cannot prove deductively. [I think - I'm open to being corrected by someone with a better knowledge of the history of epistemology here.] This is the crux of the argument we're having, as far as I can tell.

let's try to talk about the candidates between the crossfire of people arguing i dont even know what anymore.


Quite right! Sorry - I'll stop!
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9420 Posts
January 19 2012 00:25 GMT
#6118
On January 19 2012 09:13 allecto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2012 09:11 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:
acker, please stop using the question "have you taken ____ class?" as an insult. It's annoying and has no bearing when the question at hand ultimately has different answers depending upon what you view as ideal or moral. Milton Friedman had a nobel prize in economics and wrote pages upon pages of why he thought minimum wage laws were ultimately counterproductive. Would you give him the same "have you taken ____ class?" insult?


I'm against minimum wages but I think that Milton Friedman would agree that minimum wage laws are effective in monopsonies for example. Anyway moving on.


http://capitalismandfriedman.wordpress.com/2009/06/19/milton-friedman-on-minimum-wage-laws/
radiatoren
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Denmark1907 Posts
January 19 2012 00:33 GMT
#6119
On January 19 2012 09:14 xDaunt wrote:
Looks like ABC has an interview with one of Newt's ex-wives that could end his campaign.


The real question is: Why hasn't this happened earlier?
Repeat before me
darthfoley
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States8004 Posts
January 19 2012 00:37 GMT
#6120
On January 19 2012 09:33 radiatoren wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2012 09:14 xDaunt wrote:
Looks like ABC has an interview with one of Newt's ex-wives that could end his campaign.


The real question is: Why hasn't this happened earlier?


What does the interview contain?
watch the wall collide with my fist, mostly over problems that i know i should fix
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