Could a Technocracy be Better than Democracy? - Page 39
Forum Index > General Forum |
Shraft
Sweden701 Posts
| ||
DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
Redundancy of competition is a driver of innovation; And, if you don't have redundancy of competition, you have redundancy of bureaucracy. Which is the same thing, but even less efficient with its resources. | ||
doublethreat
12 Posts
| ||
mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On September 24 2011 07:47 Shraft wrote: Mcc, I am done arguing with you. You asked for sources and proof, and when I provide them, you refuse to read them and demand I type it out in my own words. You are intellectually dishonest and from here on out I will just pretend that you don't exist. When and if you post something of relevance, I might consider replying to you again. You did not provide evidence, you provided evidence for something we did not discuss(your first link), then you provided an essay, which is not evidence. Try to differentiate between argument and evidence. Just because Hayek says something it is not an evidence it is an argument and using someone elses argument to support your argument and pretending it is evidence is actually intellectually dishonest. This is the only case (of the three) I wanted you to use your words, as that is how discussions and debates are done, quoting only partially related walls of text is bad debating practice. Third link was to a book that supposedly contains evidence, again it is bad debating practice to point to a book and go : "there is evidence there, go find it". No you are the one that has to provide exact place in the book where the evidence is. And your reply that claims anyone who does not conform to your warped standards of discussion, because I refuse to play your game of bad debating, is intellectually dishonest was expected. This "lalala, if I ignore the reality and claim everyone else is bad and dishonest I can live in my virtual misesian paradise forever" is pretty standard for libertarians of your kind. It is called "wall of ignorance" ![]() | ||
mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On September 24 2011 09:34 DeepElemBlues wrote: mcc, Redundancy of competition is a driver of innovation; And, if you don't have redundancy of competition, you have redundancy of bureaucracy. Which is the same thing, but even less efficient with its resources. Some of the redundancy of competition might be driver of some innovation, but that would be as far as I would go. A lot of that redundancy has no other sense than duplication of things that bigger organization can do more efficiently as it can employ economies of scale. A lot of them can be outsourced to some specialized provider that can do that, for example accounting, marketing,... but not all. Bureaucracy is present in every organization that has more than let's say 20 people. Redundancy of bureaucracy can be present everywhere. The reasons can be bad organization, corruption, .... In the free market there is a drive to minimize this redundancy through competition. That does not mean it is not present, it just means that it is being minimized slowly(more or less) over time for as long as the competition is reasonably close to ideal, and that is not guaranteed in reality. In government organizations, corruption and lack of motivation to get rid of it is the main source of the redundancy. The only motivation is public scrutiny and that is highly dependent on the country and region in question. But that does not prevent government organization in some areas of economy and some places to be more efficient than competition driven free market. It just requires good level of public scrutiny, low level of corruption (all relative to the redundancy of competition in the particular area) for the organization to be more effective. It is quite possible since there is a gap between "ideal" efficiency and efficiency of the free market in real-life conditions and in particular circumstances you can get into that gap with other economical arrangements than free-market. To reiterate bureaucracy is not something unique in government organizations, it is a feature of all but the smallest organizations. EDIT: There are also ethical considerations of the members of the organization that are motivation to lower the corruption, but I ignored them as direct motivation and included them instead in the geographical region part of the argument. | ||
fant0m
964 Posts
If you want to iron out the problems with society, starting from a democracy is NEVER going to work. The ideal government is an all-powerful, all-knowing benevolent robot dictator. | ||
Shraft
Sweden701 Posts
On September 24 2011 00:58 mcc wrote: No free market does not in general lead to the most efficient economy. Only if you define efficiency to fit what you are trying to prove does it hold true. Competition is redundancy, that might be good or bad depending on circumstances. Competition is definitely not good in all cases. As long as you do not hurt anyone else is extremely continuous concept. What if your use of steroids hurts your loved ones ? Is it hurting anyone or not ? In societies the concept of hurting someone else is much more broad than most people acknowledge and varies from one society to another. For example in society with public healthcare your overuse of steroids hurts other people, in some other it might not. But no matter where we draw the line objectively wrong can be only something that hurts other people, so your objection is invalid. Things that you do that do not hurt other people cannot be objectively wrong for the purpose of policy decisions. Provide me with proof, please. On September 24 2011 02:17 mcc wrote: No it might be also bad for a whole society. There are situations where redundancy introduced by the competition is too big compared to gains. It seems to me that it is you who is talking about a subset of the population, specifically the consumers of the product in question, whereas I talk about society as a whole and that is the difference. But even if I considered it from the point of view of the consumers, competition might lead to situations (unlikely ones but possible) where the product is more expensive then it would be in monopoly. Economies of scale and all that. There is no clear distinction between directly and indirectly hurting someone. It is continuum not discrete. As for your examples, what if someone puts one round into a revolver and then randomly spins it, points at you and "shoots". Should this act be allowed ? There is only (for example) 1/6 chance he will kill you. Similarly with DUI. The point is there is no such thing as clear distinction between direct and indirect hurt. Of course in practice we pick some point, but the reasoning for picking that point is not following from your simplistic criteria. You need more complex reasoning. Prove it. On September 24 2011 03:26 mcc wrote: Redundancy of competition means that more than one entity is doing the same. And I do not mean the same product, but the same task. Marketing, accounting, even many management positions would be saved in one bigger company compared to two smaller competing companies, especially since some of those positions are existing only because of the need to compete. It is bad because it can be done better. Of course bigger companies(and also government organizations as they do not differ too much) have their own set of problems like corruption, long feedback loops and so on. And in some situations the economies of scale and lack of redundancy are enough to offset the corruption and other ills of big companies/government organizations. Point me to one example where this has been solved by a better way than on a free market. I too can play the part of the idiot who just demands references and statistics without putting any effort into my own posts. | ||
Gaga
Germany433 Posts
even in a technocraty people will have to enforce stuff. Cuz Nobody would really want to live in a world dictated by machines, would they ? | ||
DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
Some of the redundancy of competition might be driver of some innovation, but that would be as far as I would go. A lot of that redundancy has no other sense than duplication of things that bigger organization can do more efficiently as it can employ economies of scale. A lot of them can be outsourced to some specialized provider that can do that, for example accounting, marketing,... but not all. It isn't necessarily true that a bigger organization can employ economies of scale. It's a general assumption and a good one, but still. Also, the key feature of the internet as far as commerce goes is that it enables smaller organizations to operate at a level of efficiency that would presumably have taken a large organization in the past. As for what you say about bureaucracy that is true, unfortunately it is mostly a smokescreen. Government bureaucracies are inferior to private ones, and when private ones are just as bad, it is usually because of their extensive connections to government, as their failure in the past was not really a concern thanks to the beneficence of public contracts and these days thanks to the beneficence of bailouts. | ||
Tzeval
44 Posts
For example take alcohl which is harmful to society. One can't say how humans will react if it is prohibited. Therefore on can't really say that prohibiting it is better then leaving it as it is. This problem you face with nearly every controversial topic. Many things politics face are problems that are elements of NP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NP-complete). Therefore one can say in many cases that the found solution was crap (or in a few faces one can say that it is good) but there is not a mathematical way to determine a good solution in finite time. Every arm of Science boils down to math and physics (which boils down to 90% math and 10% basic monitoring). A Technocracy that can't determine it's answers in a correct scientific way loses it's basis. The only way arround the human behavior problem is the ability to limit behavior, but then we'd have a Despotie, which has the ability to get way worse (See dictatorships and the middle ages for "prove" ). If you have problem's following the point try to understand http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NP-complete it's the main point. Maybe the quantum computer will change this in the future but i'm not deep enough in the topic to say how they work with NP-Problems. | ||
Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On September 24 2011 07:23 Shraft wrote: Doing something because I like it = doing something because I (subjectively) value the gains of the action over the eventual losses. There is no way whatsoever for you to define the "real" or objective value in something. AS I SAID, it can't be defined by an objective standard. Of course it can, and you aren't really arguing the opposite either, you're only giving a blank statement of how "it can't be done", while I explained exactly how and why it can be. The point is that what you subjectively value isn't relevant, because the law is the same for everyone, and so are the consequences. You admitted the substance you wish to use increases the risk of heart attack by 5%. It's actually really easy and simple to calculate to what extent legalizing such a substance is a bad idea. It's just maths. Eliminating subjectivity in favor of objectivity is the whole point. You can't be willingly "subjective" when there is relevant objective information available - you can either accept the facts or be wrong (to an extent). I see no reason that the society should allow you to be wrong, especially on something that affects and endangers lives of other people as well. | ||
Coraz
United States252 Posts
democracy is pretty horrible as well I'll stick to constitutional republic | ||
bonifaceviii
Canada2890 Posts
"What needs to be done", of course, is different in everyone's eyes, but technocrats have their ideas and putting them in charge gets them done at least. Technocrats and Democracy: Have PhD, Will Govern + Show Spoiler + THE markets first welcomed, then worried about the appointment of academic economists as prime ministers of Greece and Italy. Much political commentary traced the same trajectory. But the technocratic response to the euro’s problems is only part of a wider reaction to the financial and economic crisis: in many countries, the crisis has paralysed significant parts of the political system, leading to innovations and improvisations that try to short-circuit or patch up the normal working of democracy. Perhaps the best example of this is the so-called “super committee” in the United States. Normally, all fiscal decisions are made by Congress, with the approval of the president. But by November 23rd, a special committee made up of three Democrats and three Republicans from each house of Congress, has to slice a mammoth $1.5 trillion off the budget deficit over ten years. Congress must then vote on whatever the super committee proposes—but may only accept or reject the plan as a whole. It may not amend the plan or vote on individual items, as is usual. And if Congress rejects the package, or the super-committee fails to come up with one, then the $1.5 trillion of cuts will be imposed automatically. American politicians, despairing of their inability to reduce the deficit in normal ways, have put a gun to their own heads. There have been partial precedents in American history but nothing quite like this. In Europe, meanwhile, technocratic prime ministers are only the highest-ranking experts being recruited to help balance budgets and reform economies. Italy not only has an economics professor as prime minister (Mario Monti), it has also agreed that the IMF should scrutinise its reform programme. Greece has accepted that a troika of the IMF, European Central Bank and European Commission (the European Union’s glorified civil service) should supervise its austerity measures. So have Ireland and Portugal. Spain is an especially revealing case. On the face of it, its democracy is working as usual. The country is due to hold an election on November 20th and, if the polls are correct, the conservative Popular Party will unseat the ruling Socialists. Yet at the same time, the current government has agreed upon a series of economic targets with the European Commission, and in practice the PP’s leader, Mariano Rajoy, will have to take these targets as a guide to policy, even if he dislikes them (which, admittedly, he doesn’t). Ordinarily, democracies seek public support for the policies they pursue and have various ways of mobilising that support, of which elections are the most important. But there are special reasons why the ordinary processes of mobilising the public should be strained at the moment. In euro-zone countries, the currency itself is unpopular. According to a recent poll by the German Marshall Fund, a think tank, 53% of people in countries that use the euro think the single currency has been bad for their national economy, against only 40% who think it has been a net plus. It is hard to rally the public behind austerity programmes at the best of times; even harder to solicit their support for measures to bolster a currency they do not like. Unsurprisingly, politicians have sent for outsiders to stiffen their resolve—and now have someone else to blame for the austerity measures they are imposing. The special factor in America is the dysfunctionality of the political system. The past decade or so has seen a growing use of delaying tactics in Congress—such as the filibuster and so-called “hold” on appointments, so that decisions that were once largely formal or administrative have become mired in politicised controversy. This is the opposite of the problem in Europe, where the emergence of technocrats is supposed to make decision-making less partisan. But it is still a problem, as was seen in the disastrous wrangle over raising the national debt ceiling—an argument which ended in the downgrade of American sovereign debt. House Republicans have said they will not compromise with the president. But since the American political system requires a measure of compromise to work (and since the Republicans have a majority in the House of Representatives), parts of the legislative processes have almost seized up. This is likely to get worse during election year. America and Europe share a common problem: the economic and financial crisis has discredited mainstream politicians. The right is popularly seen as the party of the rich, too close to unpopular bankers, and responsible for the financial deregulation of the 1980s which, on some accounts, was the source of all the trouble. But the left, which might have expected to have benefited from a capitalist meltdown, is no better off. Centre-left governments, at least in Britain and America, are also compromised by their earlier friendliness to finance and the left is seen as having been profligate, running up the debts that austerity is now needed to rein in. The result is that whereas in the early years of the crisis, the left was doing better in America and the right better in Europe (an echo of the 1930s), now there seems no pattern, except growing opposition to incumbents. The Democrats won in America in 2008, while conservatives won in Britain, Sweden and the Netherlands in 2010. But America’s forthcoming elections are anyone’s guess. By most opinion polls, the favourability ratings for both big American parties, as well as for Congress, have reached record lows while opposition to congressional incumbents are at all-time highs (and rising). In Europe this year, the left won the Danish election and the French Socialists are ahead of the incumbent president, but the Spanish right is ahead of the ruling Socialists. Exhaustion with the normal process of party politics explains why technocrats are being brought in. Usually, democracies are better at dealing with financial crises than autocracies because they are seen as fair. Elected politicians can distribute the pain of austerity without losing legitimacy because people (it is hoped) will accept tough reforms that are seen as legitimate. But if all the main parties are complicit in causing a crisis, the public may not accept solutions from any of them. Then, the system needs to find alternatives unblemished by the disastrous decisions of the past-and technocrats fit the bill. But therein lies a danger. Almost by definition, technocrats command respect rather than popularity: they tend especially to drive the far left and right further to the extremes. And at the moment, the only politicians who are unquestionably thriving are those outside the mainstream already. Gerd Wilders’s populist Freedom party leapt to third in the Dutch election in 2010 and is now running second in the polls. Its Austrian equivalent, also called the Freedom party, is running neck and neck with the ruling party, while France’s National Front stands to do well in next year’s elections. As always, America is different. But the rise of the Tea Party Movement and the Occupy Wall Street demonstrations suggests that frustration with established parties is a growing force there, too. The rise of the “occupy” crowd, evicted from their Zucotti park site in New York in the early hours of November 15th, is especially important because its members are motivated by concern about social and income inequalities. Technocrats may be good at saying how much pain a country must endure, how to make its debt level sustainable or how to solve a financial crisis. But they are not so good at working out how pain is to be distributed, whether to raise taxes or cut spending on this or that group, and what the income-distribution effects of their policies are. Those are political questions, not technocratic ones. And they will not go away just because a technocrat has been made prime minister. | ||
Proko
United States1022 Posts
Perhaps we should simply expand some of the technocratic aspects of our government, populate parts of senate and house committees with actual skilled informed professionals. | ||
Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
| ||
Krikkitone
United States1451 Posts
On November 17 2011 01:32 Proko wrote: The real problem is choosing the people who will be your technocrats and then allocating the money. Our government has some technocratic attributes already (portions of the cabinet etc.). Perhaps we should simply expand some of the technocratic aspects of our government, populate parts of senate and house committees with actual skilled informed professionals. As a previous poster posted, democracy= bad, technocracy=bad, constitutional republic=good (depending on the constitution). Democracy is bad because the average voter is stupid (partially because no one has the time to become 'smart' on all aspects of government) Technocracy is bad because the average human being (smart or not) is selfish (partially because no one has the capacity to truly care about more than a few dozen other people) So having a constitution that limits the ability of the average voter to make governmental decisions As well as limiting the ability of the elite to make governmental decisions is ideal. Now better ways to balance the means of making governmental decisions may be needed, ie slightly more elite power/less people power. However, tilting it way to far in either direction won't work for a group of more than a small town. (Athens had a few citizens, and still had serious problems, and Technocrats won't Really care about all the people in a large city.) The point is that what you subjectively value isn't relevant, because the law is the same for everyone, and so are the consequences. You admitted the substance you wish to use increases the risk of heart attack by 5%. It's actually really easy and simple to calculate to what extent legalizing such a substance is a bad idea. It's just maths. Eliminating subjectivity in favor of objectivity is the whole point. You can't be willingly "subjective" when there is relevant objective information available - you can either accept the facts or be wrong (to an extent). I see no reason that the society should allow you to be wrong, especially on something that affects and endangers lives of other people as well. That's an excellent example...a substance that gives a 5% chance of a lethal heart attack... lets say it also ensured that the remainder of your life you would be totally happy, and able to form deep meaningful relationships for the next 20 years. Well how much happiness is worth a 5% chance of death? what if it was 0.5% or 0.05% chances? Those are subjective values, how much "your life" is worth (how much money would it take to get you to walk into certain death)? how much "your happiness" is worth? Now if it is a 5% chance of a lethal heart attack v. but reduces your chances of having a lethat stroke by 6% with no other side effects, then you can just play the numbers. Otherwise it is totally subjective. | ||
Proko
United States1022 Posts
On November 17 2011 01:50 Krikkitone wrote: Now better ways to balance the means of making governmental decisions may be needed, ie slightly more elite power/less people power. However, tilting it way to far in either direction won't work for a group of more than a small town. (Athens had a few citizens, and still had serious problems, and Technocrats won't Really care about all the people in a large city.) My point is that right now, the inefficiency in some of our legistlative committees could be helped by drawing more on the knowledge of experts. | ||
WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On September 24 2011 19:24 Shraft wrote: Provide me with proof, please. Prove it. Point me to one example where this has been solved by a better way than on a free market. I too can play the part of the idiot who just demands references and statistics without putting any effort into my own posts. Free market is good when you have a comparative advantage (from Smith to Ricardo, same with the HOS, Heckser Ohlin Samuelson theory in essence). Protectionnism can help an industrie to grow, and it is sometime needed, this has been defended by Hamilton and Stuart Mill back in their time and used in America in 1830 (Tariff of 1828) and in 1930 with the Smoot Hawley Tarrif Act (and you can see the same protectionism in most countries France, UK, Germany). And that is just an exemple, freedom is not always the best choice economically... he is right. Schumpeter used to say that competition does not kill competition... he is wrong, everything prove that competition lead to oligopoly. (see multinationalisation) Just to explain you man, the free market does not exist, it will never exist, it's a theory, a myth. In fact, in the world you are living in right now, there are still a lot of protection, but you cannot see them - from volontary restriction of exportation (heavily used in the US to prevent Japan from importing too much cars) to different use of administrativ barrier. The protection of today does in fact cost more to our society than the old ones (taxs). | ||
Gaga
Germany433 Posts
![]() Facing Crisis, Technocrats Take Charge in Italy | ||
Shraft
Sweden701 Posts
On September 29 2011 23:59 Talin wrote: + Show Spoiler [Incoherent nonsense] + Of course it can, and you aren't really arguing the opposite either, you're only giving a blank statement of how "it can't be done", while I explained exactly how and why it can be. The point is that what you subjectively value isn't relevant, because the law is the same for everyone, and so are the consequences. You admitted the substance you wish to use increases the risk of heart attack by 5%. It's actually really easy and simple to calculate to what extent legalizing such a substance is a bad idea. It's just maths. Eliminating subjectivity in favor of objectivity is the whole point. You can't be willingly "subjective" when there is relevant objective information available - you can either accept the facts or be wrong (to an extent). I see no reason that the society should allow you to be wrong, especially on something that affects and endangers lives of other people as well. The point here is that eliminating subjectivity in favour of objectivity is impossible. Value is in the eye of the beholder. (You can read more on this in Theory of Money and Credit (Chapter 2, page 38) by Mises. It can be found here.) There is no way to establish the value of something without someone evaluating it. Is that so fucking hard to get? | ||
| ||