• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 20:26
CEST 02:26
KST 09:26
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week6[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed15Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission extension3Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced7
StarCraft 2
General
Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed Who will win EWC 2025? RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Server Blocker
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo)
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome
Brood War
General
Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion Soulkey Muta Micro Map? [ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues 2025 ACS Season 2 Qualifier Cosmonarchy Pro Showmatches CSL Xiamen International Invitational
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project The PlayStation 5
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread We are Ready to Testify: Emergence Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 658 users

Could a Technocracy be Better than Democracy?

Forum Index > General Forum
Post a Reply
Normal
AustinCM
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada275 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 17:12:01
August 12 2011 07:49 GMT
#1
Do you think that a Technocracy could work anywhere in the world?

What is a Technocracy you ask?

A Technocracy is a form of government in which engineers, scientists, health professionals, and other technical experts are in control of decision making in their respective fields.

So do you think that it would be able to accelerate scientific discovery and advancement and how do you think it would affect the economy of the given country?\

I for one feel that this is exactly what we need and will end the OP with a quote from Winston Churchill.

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

How about this, I imagine a technocracy having about a dozen represenatives in each field and their decisions would need a scientific research paper sort of outlining why they made their decision, so people in those respective fields can peer review their decisions. I think that would be able to prevent any corruption.
"Somewhere, Something incredible is waiting to be known." -Carl Sagan
Emporio
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3069 Posts
August 12 2011 07:51 GMT
#2
What is this doing in the SC2 General forum lol

Is this asking if the leaders of the world should be decided by their skill in SC2? Sounds like an awesome manga
How does it feel knowing you wasted another 3 seconds of your life reading this again?
Sworn
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada920 Posts
August 12 2011 07:52 GMT
#3
On August 12 2011 16:51 Emporio wrote:
What is this doing in the SC2 General forum lol

Is this asking if the leaders of the world should be decided by their skill in SC2? Sounds like an awesome manga


I'm cool with president Nestea unless that means nerfs to Protoss and Terran by federal command
"Duty is heavy as a mountain, death is light as a feather." CJ Entus Fighting! <3 Effort
djRAMbO
Profile Joined February 2011
United States66 Posts
August 12 2011 07:54 GMT
#4
President Professor Nestea would nerf zerg just to make things more of a challenge, and he still would be undefeatable.
skype: rambomcfantastic stream: www.twitch.tv/djrambo ^^come hang out in the channel for free coaching =)
jonathan1
Profile Joined October 2010
United States395 Posts
August 12 2011 07:54 GMT
#5
professor Tea would make an excellent commander
Netsky
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia1155 Posts
August 12 2011 07:55 GMT
#6
On August 12 2011 16:51 Emporio wrote:
What is this doing in the SC2 General forum lol

Is this asking if the leaders of the world should be decided by their skill in SC2? Sounds like an awesome manga


Interesting idea - not really comfortable with Blizzard having complete control of the parameters though. If they or their supporters don't like World President Nestea out comes the nerf stick for Zerg.
RoyaleBrainSlug
Profile Joined December 2010
United States295 Posts
August 12 2011 07:55 GMT
#7
On August 12 2011 16:52 Sworn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 16:51 Emporio wrote:
What is this doing in the SC2 General forum lol

Is this asking if the leaders of the world should be decided by their skill in SC2? Sounds like an awesome manga


I'm cool with president Nestea unless that means nerfs to Protoss and Terran by federal command


And the thread goes down hill from here,

Personally I think Boxer, community proclaimed emperor, should lead. The man has far more experiance and credentials (bw, not sc2) than nestea.
Zileas is my Homeboy
AustinCM
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada275 Posts
August 12 2011 07:56 GMT
#8
Hurry mods, the peeps in General will be confused at the first 5 posts xD.
"Somewhere, Something incredible is waiting to be known." -Carl Sagan
figq
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
12519 Posts
August 12 2011 08:01 GMT
#9
That sounds like haters of president MC trying to sabotage him. But he hasn't been impeached yet!
On the other hand, automated tournaments may indeed be the future...
If you stand next to my head, you can hear the ocean. - Day[9]
Giwoon
Profile Joined December 2010
Korea (South)431 Posts
August 12 2011 08:01 GMT
#10
i think this should be in blogs or general forums

mods please dont close this D: i want some discussions for thissss cuz its pretty interesting
BUTTHURT?
tertle
Profile Joined February 2010
Australia328 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 08:02:41
August 12 2011 08:01 GMT
#11
Actually I'm very strongly in favour of the technocracy concept, but maybe mixed with a form of democracy.

I don't understand how a guy with a degree in business should be appointed communications (technology) minster, or a lawyer head of health. It really makes no sense.
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25551 Posts
August 12 2011 08:02 GMT
#12
On August 12 2011 16:51 Emporio wrote:
What is this doing in the SC2 General forum lol

Is this asking if the leaders of the world should be decided by their skill in SC2? Sounds like an awesome manga


I would totally read that manga. Instead of elections, they'd have National Starleague Tournament. Imagine like G Gundam meets Death Note but twice as awesome and with all our favorite characters progamers.
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
GreYMisT
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States6736 Posts
August 12 2011 08:03 GMT
#13
Defy Overlord Tea at your own peril
"life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery" / Join TL Mafia! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?show_part=31
Schelim
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Austria11528 Posts
August 12 2011 08:06 GMT
#14
fight wars by playing sc2 imo. south korea would conquer the whole world in the span of a GSL season though.
TY <3 Cure <3 Inno <3 Special <3
Krogzor
Profile Joined September 2010
Korea (North)21 Posts
August 12 2011 08:06 GMT
#15
What an absurd idea.
MonsieurGrimm
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada2441 Posts
August 12 2011 08:07 GMT
#16
it seems like a very, very vague concept. are representatives from certain fields elected by the people? by their peers? is there a president or just a council of representatives? how do you make sure the different fields are represented fairly? and so on and so forth. a system based on merit rather than public approval seems nice... but I absolutely think that the general population needs a say and obviously checks and balances need to be put in place.
"60% of the time, it works - every time" - Brian Fantana on Double Reactors All The Way // "Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt
Jombozeus
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
China1014 Posts
August 12 2011 08:08 GMT
#17
Theoretically as grand as communism, with a very low plausibility with society's current form.

In a few centuries though, very likely.
Slaughter
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States20254 Posts
August 12 2011 08:09 GMT
#18
The flaw isn't in the systems themselves but in people. If you had a technocracy then those in charge would simply abuse it and suppress things challenging to their viewpoints. Just like now everyone talks over each other.
Never Knows Best.
phyren
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States1067 Posts
August 12 2011 08:09 GMT
#19
On August 12 2011 17:08 Jombozeus wrote:
Theoretically as grand as communism, with a very low plausibility with society's current form.

In a few centuries though, very likely.


I disagree. The sort of people who think they are able to make the big decisions for the general populous are exactly the sort that aren't experts.
BobMcJohnson
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
France2916 Posts
August 12 2011 08:11 GMT
#20
Probably could not be worse than the current system... I mean, I studied computer science, and when I look at the politicians in France voting some absurd, misinformed, nonsensical and impossible to enforce, the laws regarding Internet/New technologies these last couple of years, I am absolutely TERRIFIED about what the hell they are doing in domains that I don't understand properly, like healthcare, economy or whatever, because looking at their actions in stuff that I understand, I assume that in the domains that I don't understand they are doing the same ridiculous decisions, and I'm not even realising what is happening.

Dunno if my point is very clear but, yeah, Technocracy always seemed a good idea to me. That said it probably should be mixed with democracy to some extent to prevent abuses.
Romanes eunt domus
MonsieurGrimm
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada2441 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 08:32:44
August 12 2011 08:11 GMT
#21
On August 12 2011 17:09 Slaughter wrote:
The flaw isn't in the systems themselves but in people. If you had a technocracy then those in charge would simply abuse it and suppress things challenging to their viewpoints. Just like now everyone talks over each other.

the current system really, really isn't much better T_____T

like winston churchill said, democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.

it couldn't be a one-leader system though, it would have to be representatives from a bunch of different fields in a council who govern over their specific fields, but can exert some power over other fields maybe. I like the idea that people would come to positions of power through merit, but the general population needs a say. I don't know how to fit both concepts in... maybe you have a system where people vote for different fields and the votes more or less determine the budget? but that would assume that the general population know what's good for them, which they don't... but that's how democracy is supposed to work - people vote for the guy who most closely represents their ideals.

the fields would all have to be categories though. maybe the categories determine amongst themselves how to distribute their budget amongst the sub-categories and stuff, while the general population determines how to distribute the budget amongst the categories. the representatives try and get as much budget for themselves as possible with public speeches and stuff, but having a lot of charisma won't help as much I think. the guy who best details what he's going to do for the population and how the budget allows him to do it would get the votes, and failed promises won't get as many. it's not "oh the republican party failed me last time - now I'll vote democrat" it's "hey he said that we would be able to set up a colony on mars with the budget and didn't - I'm going to give it to someone else this time because those guys can't get things done"

I dunno. political theorycrafting

anyhow thought I should put an example in. say for instance one of the categories is natural sciences - there are a lot of subcategories in there. marine biology, astronomy, astrology, physics, et cetera. all of the subcategories each come up with a representative. then, all the representatives get together and decide who should represent the category (natural sciences). the representative of natural sciences then tries to persuade the public to vote for natural sciences in the upcoming budget election. some of the wealth is then distributed amongst the categories based on the votes. public services also have representatives and are voted upon for budget, but in a different vote.
"60% of the time, it works - every time" - Brian Fantana on Double Reactors All The Way // "Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt
Thratur
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada917 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 08:29:55
August 12 2011 08:14 GMT
#22
I believe in a mixed system.

In Canada, we have the House of Commons and the Senate. The House of Commons is elected and they give us our prime minister and stuff like that. The Senate is another body. Every Senator is appointed by the prime minister for a long period.

When the House of Commons votes on something, it has to be approved by the Senate, and then it's good to go.

However, the Senate is made of a bunch of incompetents and it doesn't actually do anything these days. We even talk about abolishing it. Some people, most of my friends at least, are even surprised we have such a thing.

Imo, I would replace these senators by highly qualified individuals in science, as described by the OP. Nomination would be a difficult process, but I believe it could be done by either a lottery out of qualified experts who want to go for it (completely random as long as you qualify), or nomination by universities. It should be about 2 years long I'd say, to avoid corruption. Becoming a senator should give you benefits in your field, such as funds for your research. We want incentives to bring smart people. The task of this Senate would be similar as the one we have right now, vetoing the parliament, but in their respective fields, and they'll actually do their job this time.
Misanthrophic13
Profile Joined August 2011
Bahrain22 Posts
August 12 2011 08:17 GMT
#23
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STEM_fields

I love how in college all of the Business majors and English majors bashed on STEM majors and called them nerds.

I agree.


I would much rather listen to Stephen Hawking's point of view of the world, than the great Obama.
The difference between satire and sarcasm is the difference between surgery and butchery. — Edward Nichols
Vore210
Profile Joined January 2011
Ireland256 Posts
August 12 2011 08:17 GMT
#24
If something like this were in place, it would have to have similar or better checks and balances in it as democracy does. I basically mean that the government can't be a hereditary dictatorship, that it can't have absolute power, and that the people can overturn it without having to resort to violence if things get bad enough.

All in all it's an interesting idea, but I think one of the best advances that we could make in our current system is to not have professional politicians and to get money out of politics.

Have people trained in managing a lot of things at once and keeping it stable. Critical thinking, training in the scientific method and backed up by the ability to call on the best minds suited to particular important state decisions. This would have to be an improvement over the current prickish, parading peacocks that we have running our countries today.

What happens too often is people are taught not to lead, but to look good leading. It's made a very shallow and corrupt political system which has screwed us over badly.

Light a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett
Kaitlin
Profile Joined December 2010
United States2958 Posts
August 12 2011 08:17 GMT
#25
Being highly skilled in a particular science such as a medical doctor doesn't equate to an ability in public administration of that area. There are many "experts" that don't know the first thing about anything outside the details of their specialty.
nohbrows
Profile Joined February 2011
United States653 Posts
August 12 2011 08:20 GMT
#26
On August 12 2011 17:07 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
it seems like a very, very vague concept. are representatives from certain fields elected by the people? by their peers? is there a president or just a council of representatives? how do you make sure the different fields are represented fairly? and so on and so forth. a system based on merit rather than public approval seems nice... but I absolutely think that the general population needs a say and obviously checks and balances need to be put in place.


Perhaps it doesn't exactly entail creating a totally new system of government. Perhaps a technocracy can be created within the current system. I think all it takes is the voters understanding who to vote for, and those educated in the sciences and arts getting invovled in politics. If the voters vote in politicians who are technocrats, then they have essentially established a technocracy within the current system.

I am all for a technocracy though. I think its absolutely crazy that we trust people who don't know much about the sciences and the arts to hold the power to make decisions with such far reaching consequences as to affect the very standard of life as we know it (exaggerating a bit).

Then again, the government does not really deal with science based issues on a day to day basis does it? And when it does, does it not call in experts to advise them?
Seizon Senryaku!
acker
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2958 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 08:30:13
August 12 2011 08:28 GMT
#27
Problems with "pure" technocracies are obvious. The most notable one being self-interest for the technocrats in question.

Pure democracies are also problematic. That's why almost none exist today.

Most democracies try to introduce technocratic principles through several steps, the most notable one being representation.
nekolux
Profile Joined November 2010
Singapore38 Posts
August 12 2011 08:31 GMT
#28
The first thing I thought of when i saw technocracy versus democracy is.
Why are they mutually exclusive? Yes you have election for your president etc that's fine. We could elect technocratic ministers from a pool of qualified individuals. Put up a few requisites ie. Health minister has to have an MD etc. And from there elect them into power.

False dichotomy. /thread
Klive5ive
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United Kingdom6056 Posts
August 12 2011 08:33 GMT
#29
WOAH WOAH WOAH holdup.

You can't bring Churchill into this without also quoting:
“It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.”

So although you tried to suggest that he didn't believe in democracy. Actually he still thought it was the best option.
Don't hate the player - Hate the game
supdubdup
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States916 Posts
August 12 2011 08:37 GMT
#30
Each group would undermine each other for the money in their field, eventually causing Christianity to win out. Technocracy would not work.
Turn it Up
MonsieurGrimm
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada2441 Posts
August 12 2011 08:40 GMT
#31
On August 12 2011 17:37 supdubdup wrote:
Each group would undermine each other for the money in their field, eventually causing Christianity to win out. Technocracy would not work.

thats how democracy works right now dude, without the christianity bit

also a technocracy would probably be secular
"60% of the time, it works - every time" - Brian Fantana on Double Reactors All The Way // "Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt
supdubdup
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States916 Posts
August 12 2011 08:45 GMT
#32
On August 12 2011 17:40 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 17:37 supdubdup wrote:
Each group would undermine each other for the money in their field, eventually causing Christianity to win out. Technocracy would not work.

thats how democracy works right now dude, without the christianity bit

also a technocracy would probably be secular

hahahahaha..would be secular. Even our government has...religious ties. And if u didn't get my point, exaclty, Technocracy is no greater than democracy.
Turn it Up
Ledcaveman
Profile Joined March 2011
100 Posts
August 12 2011 08:49 GMT
#33
I'd rather people with a clue about the world be in charge, rather than brainless politicians.
sleepingdog
Profile Joined August 2008
Austria6145 Posts
August 12 2011 08:49 GMT
#34
On August 12 2011 17:17 Misanthrophic13 wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STEM_fields

I love how in college all of the Business majors and English majors bashed on STEM majors and called them nerds.

I agree.


I would much rather listen to Stephen Hawking's point of view of the world, than the great Obama.


Just to make this clear: do you think that a physicist understands more about economics than an economist? or more about law than a jurist?
"You see....YOU SEE..." © 2010 Sen
Kh0nsu
Profile Joined June 2011
United Kingdom183 Posts
August 12 2011 08:49 GMT
#35
I'm sure if a country was going to entirely disassemble their political system and pioneer a technocracy, they would consider something as obvious as self-preservation amongst the elected representatives.

I've only wondered this for a few minutes, but the only real concern I would have would be who gets elected to represent their field? Most the greatest minds would be working for a company in some way shape or form and that brings in serious ethical dilemmas.

Imagine a company having one of their scientists involved in the "government", sounds like great advertising. Not to mention how having a guy who worked for you being in control of funding and ruling within that field could help a business.

And if you don't pick someone from a the business sector, where would you find potential candidates?


Freelances?
Current members of the government?
University academics ?

Any ideas?
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
August 12 2011 08:50 GMT
#36
We could probably transform the US Senate into a technocratic arm of the government. Require some basic things to run for office, an MD, PE, PhD, or some high level of decoration, then let the people vote on them. At worst, we'd get 100 of 1 profession in the Senate, but at least we'd know what everybody was worried about (or who was the most charismatic =P ).
UniversalMind
Profile Joined March 2011
United States326 Posts
August 12 2011 08:50 GMT
#37
Yeah I agree Infest all the terrans please

they had it coming..... (shakes fist)
arbitrageur
Profile Joined December 2010
Australia1202 Posts
August 12 2011 08:56 GMT
#38
I'd be automatically against this is the average person wasn't so fucking stupid.
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
August 12 2011 08:56 GMT
#39
On August 12 2011 17:49 Kh0nsu wrote:
I'm sure if a country was going to entirely disassemble their political system and pioneer a technocracy, they would consider something as obvious as self-preservation amongst the elected representatives.

I've only wondered this for a few minutes, but the only real concern I would have would be who gets elected to represent their field? Most the greatest minds would be working for a company in some way shape or form and that brings in serious ethical dilemmas.

Imagine a company having one of their scientists involved in the "government", sounds like great advertising. Not to mention how having a guy who worked for you being in control of funding and ruling within that field could help a business.

And if you don't pick someone from a the business sector, where would you find potential candidates?


Freelances?
Current members of the government?
University academics ?

Any ideas?


At least in a technocratic democracy, at worst we'd get to pick our poison. Right now, the scenario is no different that what you mentioned. Large companies pay legions of lawyers to come up with model legislation that fits their agenda, and then these groups submit them to ignorant lawmakers who have no real option other than take these documents and build off of them. People who have no experience in any of these fields have no other people to look to than those sent to them by those who can afford to send somebody. This also means they have the resources to pass along ideas that will benefit them.
Kamille
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Monaco1035 Posts
August 12 2011 09:01 GMT
#40
http://simpsons.wikia.com/wiki/They_Saved_Lisa's_Brain

Doesn't work.
Priphea
Newbistic
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
China2912 Posts
August 12 2011 09:02 GMT
#41
The real question is whether or not a technocracy can even form in the real world, and the answer is pretty much no.

Even if it is yes, professionalism and knowledge does not guarantee personal accountability or integrity in any shape way or form, so those in power are still easily corruptible. Those who aren't in power will be the masses, who simply can't all be so educated as to be able to know everything they need to know to be "informed citizens". Mankind simply isn't education-centered enough to be able to handle such a form of government.
Logic is Overrated
aebriol
Profile Joined April 2010
Norway2066 Posts
August 12 2011 09:03 GMT
#42
You can't have the people in charge also be the ones that decide who is in charge.

That's basically asking for corruption, nepotism, stagnation, and decline.
valheru
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia966 Posts
August 12 2011 09:15 GMT
#43
I'd say keep it primarily a democracy (for the ''right to rule themselves'' argument) but when an issue relevant to a particular field each MP is assigned (to keep impartiality) a number of scholars to either advise or act in his place.
I know there are obvious problems (who assigns the scholars how are they chosen etc) and I don't really know a lot about civics but that is my best idea on how to govern, since (I think) it should eliminate the problem of MPs knowing squat about things like computer science the internet and at times (most disturbingly I think) economics and law.
I reject your reality and substitute my own
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
August 12 2011 09:18 GMT
#44
On August 12 2011 18:03 aebriol wrote:
You can't have the people in charge also be the ones that decide who is in charge.

That's basically asking for corruption, nepotism, stagnation, and decline.


Or a democratic technocracy could emerge, where those in power would only have a say in who CAN be in charge based on very loose criteria. After that, the people would have the final say in who is and isn't worthy to lead. It's not a farfetched idea to require elected officials to hold some level of higher education or licensing in their respective field. As long as the licensing remained the professional level standard and didn't "devolve" into, "you have to be a level 27 Doctor to run for office!" I think we'd be ok.
HwangjaeTerran
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Finland5967 Posts
August 12 2011 09:25 GMT
#45
“The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.”
- Winston Churchill

That pretty much says it all.
Fuck yes I'd take technocracy, is that even a real question ?

" Hi, would you rather have the people who rule your everyday life to have some sort of knowledge on the things they are supposed to make decisions on or would the current system consisting of populistic full of shit politicians and ex-celebrities with IQ in the tens and no achievements what so ever suit you better? "

https://steamcommunity.com/id/*tlusernamehere*/
Hermasaurus
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
54 Posts
August 12 2011 09:38 GMT
#46
China is a movement for technocracy is it not?
And guess what, you've wandered into our school of tuna and we now have a taste of lion. We've talked to ourselves. We've communicated and said 'You know what, lion tastes good, let's go get some more lion'
Klive5ive
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United Kingdom6056 Posts
August 12 2011 09:41 GMT
#47
On August 12 2011 18:38 Hermasaurus wrote:
China is a movement for technocracy is it not?

It kind of is.
But then once the people begin to expect more it might not work as well. China is in a transitional state, I'm not sure if they will stand their Government forever.
(although actually I think they do a really decent job).
Don't hate the player - Hate the game
gyth
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
657 Posts
August 12 2011 09:41 GMT
#48
A Technocracy is a form of government in which engineers, scientists, health professionals, and other technical experts are in control of decision making in their respective fields.

Technical expertise is determined by... a written test?
If Susskind and Hawking have another disagreement, does the government shut down?
How would you pass a budget when all the groups think their field is the most important?

P.S. economists in charge of the economy...
The plural of anecdote is not data.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
August 12 2011 09:43 GMT
#49
It's worth mentioning that we already have technocratic elements in the political systems of the United States and other western democracies. Knowleldgeable experts frequently participate in detecting problems, proposing policy solutions, advising political leaders, and running government bureaucracies. It's just that their power is very limited and they frequently serve at the pleasure of elected officials.

Moving towards more technocracy by giving these experts more power would probably be a good thing in terms of efficiency, but bad for democratic freedom. For example, there's pretty strong scientific consensus that we should teach evolution and never creationist pseudo-science, that vaccines should be mandatory, and that we need to take drastic measures to avert global warming. If we had a technocracy, we'd enact all of these, whether the majority of (ignorant) American citizens want them or not. The results would obviously be beneficial, but it goes somewhat against American ideals as we've come to understand them.

What it ultimately comes down to is whether you think that all people should decide how their country is run, or only qualified people should. Unfortunately, you're gonna have a hard time convincing the rather dim-witted and anti-intellectual public to give up power to the "nerds"/"geeks"/"fags" that they prefer to make fun of.
Talin
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Montenegro10532 Posts
August 12 2011 09:49 GMT
#50
Almost any system is inherently better and more efficient than democracy, it's just that our civilization hasn't yet matured enough (or isn't in deep enough shit yet) to implement it without abusing it.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
August 12 2011 09:49 GMT
#51
On August 12 2011 18:41 gyth wrote:
Technical expertise is determined by... a written test?


Technical expertise is determined by the relevant expert community, which generally use scientific consensus and meritocratic/bureaucratic structures to determine qualification. For example, most scientific fields consider attainment of a doctoral degree as a measure of basic proficiency in the field.

On August 12 2011 18:41 gyth wrote:
If Susskind and Hawking have another disagreement, does the government shut down?


Obviously not. Decisions are made by consensus, and the status quo prevails if there is not a supermajority in favor of a policy change.

On August 12 2011 18:41 gyth wrote:
How would you pass a budget when all the groups think their field is the most important?


It's not like that's anything different from what we do now. You do the exact same thing, which is compromise. The key difference is that compromise will be based more on scientific debate and changing the minds of other experts and less on catering to voters and special interest groups.
Spidinko
Profile Joined May 2010
Slovakia1174 Posts
August 12 2011 09:49 GMT
#52
On August 12 2011 18:41 gyth wrote:
Show nested quote +
A Technocracy is a form of government in which engineers, scientists, health professionals, and other technical experts are in control of decision making in their respective fields.

Technical expertise is determined by... a written test?
If Susskind and Hawking have another disagreement, does the government shut down?
How would you pass a budget when all the groups think their field is the most important?

P.S. economists in charge of the economy...

Well, for one they could use similar methods science uses. There are agreements of course. They don't know everything. But the process itself works pretty well.

The idea of technocracy is great. Implementing it in real world situation wouldn't very easy, though.
brain_
Profile Joined June 2010
United States812 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 09:54:29
August 12 2011 09:53 GMT
#53
I encourage everyone in this thread to look up the "pretense of knowledge".

People have been convinced to hand power (and surrender freedom) to "experts" since the very first governments... It has always ended in disaster. Give people their freedom, let them act as autonomous actors without restrictions, and be amazed as they magically figure out the most efficient and desirable ways to do things via phenomena such as the price mechanism.

TL;DR: Voluntary human cooperation, trade, and ingenuity > using force to control people "for their own good".
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 10:18:52
August 12 2011 09:55 GMT
#54
On August 12 2011 18:25 HwangjaeTerran wrote:
" Hi, would you rather have the people who rule your everyday life to have some sort of knowledge on the things they are supposed to make decisions on or would the current system consisting of populistic full of shit politicians and ex-celebrities with IQ in the tens and no achievements what so ever suit you better? "


The problem is that most people do not think like you do.

Most Americans would rather have an 'unsophisticated regular guy' as their elected leader, rather than an 'deceptive elitist intellectual'. That's why it's actually imperative for politicians to downplay their intelligence to the public as much as possible.
LAN-f34r
Profile Joined December 2010
New Zealand2099 Posts
August 12 2011 09:55 GMT
#55
I like the concept, but how would it work? Would people who are qualified (ie have a PhD in the subject) apply and be voted in like the current system (except with more smart people )? Would it be voted by other qualified people (after all, the do know the most about each-others qualifications). Would anybody who is qualifies be part of a council?
The only barrier to truth is the presumption that you already have it. It's through our pane (pain) we window (win though).
GGTeMpLaR
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States7226 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 10:03:09
August 12 2011 09:58 GMT
#56
Seems like a modified form of a democracy under the pretext of a specialized education requirement.

Better than a democracy (most likely), but there's still even better alternatives to both imo.

Also, I don't feel like being "better than a democracy" is a high standard.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 10:13:45
August 12 2011 10:01 GMT
#57
On August 12 2011 18:53 brain_ wrote:
People have been convinced to hand power (and surrender freedom) to "experts" since the very first governments... It has always ended in disaster.


No, it hasn't. Some of the greatest empires were quite undemocratic, and those that became more democratic declined as a result. The United States could speculatively be considered an example of the latter.

On August 12 2011 18:53 brain_ wrote:
TL;DR: Voluntary human cooperation, trade, and ingenuity > using force to control people "for their own good".


Yeah, that's worked out real well for us. Notice anything about the US economy lately? That's what happens when you cater to the people; year after year of spending increases and tax decreases because both are popular.

Take a look at my home state, California. Want to guess what analysts conclude is the main reason why our state's budget problems are so terribad? Because we have a proposition system that make the state more democratic, thus allowing voters to consistently vote down tax increases while voting in more spending.

Enjoy your idiocracy.
gyth
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
657 Posts
August 12 2011 10:04 GMT
#58
Some of the greatest empires were quite undemocratic

What makes an empire great? Conquest???
The plural of anecdote is not data.
Mobius_1
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United Kingdom2763 Posts
August 12 2011 10:04 GMT
#59
Sounds appealing, I've always been fascinated by alternatives forms of government including technocracies. (Thanks, Galactic Civilisations, for teaching me that word)

But it's not going to work very well, not until after thousands of years of adaptation and adjustments in both how the system works and how the citizenry act.

I personally would like the current democratic systems to further incorporate expert judgment, so for experts to have influence on political decision making rather than publishing papers that all but fly under the radar of political agendas and corporate bullying.

Finally, if one were to be instituted, it's very difficult and polarising to decide who will "rule". (Especially social) sciences are plagued with opposing views, differing opinions, and revolutionary innovations, all of those present issues for technocratic systems.

PS I feel a lot of Asimov's works incorporate technocratic ideas, with scientists being put in charge with restoring society or continuing humanity or otherwise taking on huge responsibilities. They work out well in fiction, at least!
Starleague Forever. RIP KT Violet~
GGTeMpLaR
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States7226 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 10:13:08
August 12 2011 10:07 GMT
#60
On August 12 2011 19:04 gyth wrote:
Show nested quote +
Some of the greatest empires were quite undemocratic

What makes an empire great? Conquest???


Among other things yes, but none more than sustained conquest. Don't mistake military conquest for the only form of conquest either, it's just the most direct and most commonly measured.
gyth
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
657 Posts
August 12 2011 10:10 GMT
#61
I think democracy is fine for the things that need to be compromised. Expert opinions should be heeded in the areas where there is agreement. But I think it is important that expert keep DOING and don't get caught up and bogged down in a largely pointless political morass.
The plural of anecdote is not data.
Crazyboogie
Profile Joined January 2011
Denmark19 Posts
August 12 2011 10:10 GMT
#62
The problem seems to me, to be the dividing of funds amongst different fields. I think most scientist would emphasise the importance of their own field.
"He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man"
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 10:20:38
August 12 2011 10:11 GMT
#63
On August 12 2011 18:55 LAN-f34r wrote:
I like the concept, but how would it work? Would people who are qualified (ie have a PhD in the subject) apply and be voted in like the current system (except with more smart people )? Would it be voted by other qualified people (after all, the do know the most about each-others qualifications). Would anybody who is qualifies be part of a council?


Technocracy and democracy aren't binary. Barring the most extreme cases, most government systems are hybrids with certain elements of different forms. For example, the United States is mainly a federal republic, but incorporates elements of democracy, technocracy, and oligarchy.

Moving towards technocracy just means giving more political power to the technocratic elements already within the system, such as the various Executive cabinets which implement policy and the National Academies which directly and indirectly advise elected officials. This would mean giving them more decision-making power, more participation in political discussions, and more insulation from political pressure.

On August 12 2011 19:10 Crazyboogie wrote:
The problem seems to me, to be the dividing of funds amongst different fields. I think most scientist would emphasise the importance of their own field.


You mean like how most Congressmen emphasize the importance of their own constituents and donors?

It's no different. Resolving those arguments just comes down to compromise either way.
Kemy
Profile Joined November 2010
105 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 10:32:18
August 12 2011 10:30 GMT
#64
I'm Swiss and I definitely prefer direct democracy over anything else I could imagine atm. I think the only way to avoid extreme decisions and encourage consensus is to let as many ppl participate in the decision process as possible. And it's only fair to let everyone have a vote to decide where his/her money actually goes.

This does not exclude experts sharing their views with the voters obviously but everyone should be free to decide and vote what he/she himself thinks is the best solution.


nugget-92
Profile Joined March 2011
Australia83 Posts
August 12 2011 10:31 GMT
#65
I could be the smartest man alive and I would still possess all the faults of the average human.
Well, the tomato's an anomaly. So successful with the ketchup and the sauce, but you can't find a good one.
mustache
Profile Joined April 2010
Switzerland309 Posts
August 12 2011 10:43 GMT
#66
On August 12 2011 19:30 Kemy wrote:
I'm Swiss and I definitely prefer direct democracy over anything else I could imagine atm. I think the only way to avoid extreme decisions and encourage consensus is to let as many ppl participate in the decision process as possible. And it's only fair to let everyone have a vote to decide where his/her money actually goes.

This does not exclude experts sharing their views with the voters obviously but everyone should be free to decide and vote what he/she himself thinks is the best solution.




You are glad you have a direct democracy as long as your people can decide what's best for the country in the long term and what isnt. Luckily people in switzerland are educated very well and have an education system that is anchored to the economy (apprenticeships).

We will however see how long this lasts, as most people my age i speak to are horribly misinformed about just about everything.


Jombozeus
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
China1014 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 10:51:28
August 12 2011 10:46 GMT
#67
To be honest, the current Chinese government follows a loose technocracy agenda. The top officials have mostly engineering backgrounds, and hence the ability to emphasize economic development through infrastructures. I can't say this correlation is causation, but I would not be surprised at all if educating top government officials in any hypothetical in engineering greatly improves aspects of sustainable development.

Likewise, the decisionmaker for everything economy-related is by Wen Jiabao, who is an economist holding a business degree.

The problem is finding people who have the ability to run administrative work AND have a solid engineering background at the same time. Usually, one's education is in either or, and hence the problem. You can rarely find charismatic lawyers who have a PhD in chemical engineering. You then need two people for the job, and for some reason, the one with the business degree always end up above the hierarchy compared to the dude with the engineering degree, when ideally it should be the other way around.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 10:54:09
August 12 2011 10:50 GMT
#68
On August 12 2011 19:30 Kemy wrote:
I'm Swiss and I definitely prefer direct democracy over anything else I could imagine atm. I think the only way to avoid extreme decisions and encourage consensus is to let as many ppl participate in the decision process as possible. And it's only fair to let everyone have a vote to decide where his/her money actually goes.


You have to keep in mind that your nation is unusually well-educated and intelligent, in which case democracy becomes more favorable. A nation like mine, however, where a majority don't believe in evolution...

On August 12 2011 19:31 nugget-92 wrote:
I could be the smartest man alive and I would still possess all the faults of the average human.


Which is why technocracy is based not on dictatorship by a technocrat, but rather on scientific consensus.

On August 12 2011 19:46 Jombozeus wrote:
The problem is finding people who have the ability to run administrative work AND have a solid engineering background at the same time. Usually, one's education is in either or, and hence the problem. You can rarely find charismatic lawyers who have a PhD in chemical engineering. You then need two people for the job, and for some reason, the one with the business degree always end up above the hierarchy compared to the dude with the engineering degree, when ideally it should be the other way around.


You still have a technocratic expert as a leader though (one who's expertise happens to be administration rather than engineering). Compare this with democracies, where leaders are primarily experts at winning elections.
Vore210
Profile Joined January 2011
Ireland256 Posts
August 12 2011 11:00 GMT
#69
On August 12 2011 18:55 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 18:25 HwangjaeTerran wrote:
" Hi, would you rather have the people who rule your everyday life to have some sort of knowledge on the things they are supposed to make decisions on or would the current system consisting of populistic full of shit politicians and ex-celebrities with IQ in the tens and no achievements what so ever suit you better? "


The problem is that most people do not think like you do.

Most Americans would rather have an 'unsophisticated regular guy' as their elected leader, rather than an 'deceptive elitist intellectual'. That's why it's actually imperative for politicians to downplay their intelligence to the public as much as possible.


I've heard it said that "the dumber the politician, the better they represent their constituents".

We need to get a bit smarter as a society before this would work.
Light a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett
Diks
Profile Joined January 2010
Belgium1880 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 11:06:24
August 12 2011 11:04 GMT
#70
I think we should try real democracy once to see how it feels.
What we call "democracy" in curent politic is everything but a true democratic system.

Your point about Technocracy>Democracy when you listen to the average voter's opinion is so damn right. Most people don't have real clue about what they are voting for, so they wait that some "credible" figures come and suggest them what to vote.
Technocracy shouldn't permit this kind of shit because people will have a real clue about what they are voting.
But the problem is, how do you define the threshold from wich a person could be elligible as a technocratic figure in some field. If I'm an artist that did long electronic studies and who is passionated by nature and environment; Am I not specialized enough to be apart of any of those field ? Drawing those lines about competences is gonna make the fairness of technocracy nearly impossible to achieve. You can't use diplommas as they won't mean anything for some people who quitted that domain of expertise after their studies. Autodidacts are also gonna be a real pain in the ass to determine if they are legit as specialists.
Should there be some kind of exam that could define if you're specialist in the said domain ?

Beside this small problems, I really think it make more sense than forcing some poor-eduacted people to vote things they don"t understand entirely.
bech
Profile Joined August 2010
Denmark162 Posts
August 12 2011 11:09 GMT
#71
The main problem with a technocracy is that while they may be the best in their respective fields, this in no way translates to political skill. Politics is more than knowing what the best thing to do is, it's also about persuading those with different beliefs into following you in that decision, and being able to make the right compromises whilst also forcing others to compromise in order to reach the best possible solution.

Some of the brightest minds in our society have no skills in this area whatsoever, which is why a technocratic leader would have a hard time governing his/her respective field. What you're not seeing behind the scenes of the political arena is that while a business grad appointed the position of minister of science does not personally know much about science, his job is to convey the message and bargain with opposing powers, while his/her advisers, who are in fact experts in their fields, make suggestions on what needs to be done - just as the technocratic leader would. The only problem here is that the advisers only advise - they don't decide.
XplayN.com - Danish SC2 news and events.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 11:13:19
August 12 2011 11:12 GMT
#72
On August 12 2011 20:04 Diks wrote:
Should there be some kind of exam that could define if you're specialist in the said domain ?


If a doctorate degree is the basic criteria for basic expert competency in a field, then completing the main requirement, publishing a paper in a peer-reviewed journal, could be considered the prerequisite whether you have a degree or not.

Thus, an autodidact or career-switched professional who can produce a civil engineering paper of sufficient quality to make it into a peer-reviewed journal would therefore be entitled to an honorary doctoral degree and membership in the relevant National Academy, as well as meet some of the requirements for a job within the relevant bureaucracy.
Kralle333
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Denmark301 Posts
August 12 2011 11:15 GMT
#73
Hell yes
Nukanite - www.last.fm/user/Kraller
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
August 12 2011 11:16 GMT
#74
On August 12 2011 20:09 bech wrote:
The main problem with a technocracy is that while they may be the best in their respective fields, this in no way translates to political skill. Politics is more than knowing what the best thing to do is, it's also about persuading those with different beliefs into following you in that decision, and being able to make the right compromises whilst also forcing others to compromise in order to reach the best possible solution.


Advanced political skill is more necessary in a democracy, however. When other leaders are career politicans, then of course you need to up your level of game to compete. This 'arms race' still results in a stalemate, however, which is why even though we have leaders with "political skill", Washington DC is completely deadlocked.

By contrast, in a technocracy the other leaders you deal with are primarily experts in their field; thus, it is unnecessary to be as skilled politically to be on even footing,.
Qzy
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Denmark1121 Posts
August 12 2011 11:17 GMT
#75
Yes!
I've never believed in democracy. Too many crazy people around. I want you to at least have a phd in what you are a minister of.
If I could conquer a country - or a certain area of e.g. Denmark chose to cut off from society, I hope they take up Technocracy and bans religion. Welcome to the new ages of SCIENCE!

BAM!
TG Sambo... Intel classic! Life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery
Jayve
Profile Joined February 2009
155 Posts
August 12 2011 11:19 GMT
#76
Yes, this would be better than a democracy. And that quote mildly sums up why.
Deleted User 101379
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
4849 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 11:23:51
August 12 2011 11:20 GMT
#77
If you've ever seen scientists and engineers in a team, you know that it won't work.

The only way scientists and engineers talk to each other is through arguments on who is the better and if you assign two scientists/engineers on one project without supervision it will never finish because both will argue forever on which is the best approach to start.
You need someone to supervise and steer them that is not another scientist/engineer - because then it would be 3 people pushing their opinions around -, best someone who is very experienced in herding cats


EDIT:
About "consensus"... in a group of X scientists and engineers, there are exactly X+1 opinons on the right choice and everyone is convinced that exactly X of the other opinions are totally wrong and will ruin everything.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 11:32:16
August 12 2011 11:25 GMT
#78
On August 12 2011 20:20 Morfildur wrote:
If you've ever seen scientists and engineers in a team, you know that it won't work.


Have you seen politicians in a team?

On August 12 2011 20:20 Morfildur wrote:
You need someone to supervise and steer them that is not another scientist/engineer - because then it would be 3 people pushing their opinions around -, best someone who is very experienced in herding cats


Or you just have the scientists and engineers vote on who is in charge of specific projects.

On August 12 2011 20:20 Morfildur wrote:
About "consensus"... in a group of X scientists and engineers, there are exactly X+1 opinons on the right choice and everyone is convinced that exactly X of the other opinions are totally wrong and will ruin everything.


That's not how it works. Voting theory tells us flat out that at some point they'll realize that they're better off pooling votes by forming coalitions with people who are closer to agreeing with them. Consequently you'll get a consensus.
Deleted User 101379
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
4849 Posts
August 12 2011 11:29 GMT
#79
On August 12 2011 20:25 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 20:20 Morfildur wrote:
If you've ever seen scientists and engineers in a team, you know that it won't work.


Have you seen politicians in a team?

Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 20:20 Morfildur wrote:
You need someone to supervise and steer them that is not another scientist/engineer - because then it would be 3 people pushing their opinions around -, best someone who is very experienced in herding cats


Or you just have the scientists and engineers vote on who is in charge of specific projects.


See my edit about consensus. Not possible with scientists.

Politicians strive for the most profit, scientists strive to be the only one who is right... so considering politics, we are better off with politicians than with scientists :p
Diks
Profile Joined January 2010
Belgium1880 Posts
August 12 2011 11:33 GMT
#80
On August 12 2011 20:20 Morfildur wrote:
If you've ever seen scientists and engineers in a team, you know that it won't work.

The only way scientists and engineers talk to each other is through arguments on who is the better and if you assign two scientists/engineers on one project without supervision it will never finish because both will argue forever on which is the best approach to start.
You need someone to supervise and steer them that is not another scientist/engineer - because then it would be 3 people pushing their opinions around -, best someone who is very experienced in herding cats


EDIT:
About "consensus"... in a group of X scientists and engineers, there are exactly X+1 opinons on the right choice and everyone is convinced that exactly X of the other opinions are totally wrong and will ruin everything.


Actually the debate is a good thing and could be resolved by a vote.
Staticians technocrates could bring up a new vote system that might prevent the scenario you described with a near 50% - 50% result with totally opposite views (Let's be honest, I don't see it ever happen), I have faith that ingeineers and scientist could find a smart compromise.
What I'm concerned is "political skills" as mention above. I believe all humans have inherent political skills. This is just a word that has been mystified a lot with history, and if you follow any political courses you'll realise that this is mainly historical and communication classes. You will never get deep into financial, statistic, environmental and the scientific aspects of "politic"
Can someone please bring a realistical definition of politician ? Because as a non-expert I might say shit In my opinion "politicians" are just people that knows how to get and diffuse influence and have limited expertise in a large domains.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
August 12 2011 11:35 GMT
#81
On August 12 2011 20:29 Morfildur wrote:
See my edit about consensus. Not possible with scientists.


See my edit in response.

On August 12 2011 20:29 Morfildur wrote:Politicians strive for the most profit, scientists strive to be the only one who is right... so considering politics, we are better off with politicians than with scientists :p


And yet scientific consensus is still formed on many things.

If anything, scientists probably have an easier time compromising than politicians do.
Mecker
Profile Joined December 2010
Sweden219 Posts
August 12 2011 11:36 GMT
#82
On August 12 2011 20:20 Morfildur wrote:
If you've ever seen scientists and engineers in a team, you know that it won't work.

The only way scientists and engineers talk to each other is through arguments on who is the better and if you assign two scientists/engineers on one project without supervision it will never finish because both will argue forever on which is the best approach to start.
You need someone to supervise and steer them that is not another scientist/engineer - because then it would be 3 people pushing their opinions around -, best someone who is very experienced in herding cats


EDIT:
About "consensus"... in a group of X scientists and engineers, there are exactly X+1 opinons on the right choice and everyone is convinced that exactly X of the other opinions are totally wrong and will ruin everything.

You see, this is how the current political system works. You have all these politicians who are completely devoted to their ideologies, basically assuming that their way is the right way.

A true technocracy would form open debates on all subjects of interest and through discussion conclude the best knowable solution. The debate would be moderated by strictly rational constructs and any biased, irrational or bad argument would simply be dismissed as insufficient. Once you've eliminated all the irrational arguments you've reached the consensus point where any rational person has to agree with the conclusion. These debates could be very extensive and would require a lot of revising and moderating but that is exactly what we need in a modern society. Today's politicians are literally walking logical fallacies who get elected by equally irrational, fallable and misinformed individuals.
Mecker
Profile Joined December 2010
Sweden219 Posts
August 12 2011 11:42 GMT
#83
On August 12 2011 20:29 Morfildur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 20:25 sunprince wrote:
On August 12 2011 20:20 Morfildur wrote:
If you've ever seen scientists and engineers in a team, you know that it won't work.


Have you seen politicians in a team?

On August 12 2011 20:20 Morfildur wrote:
You need someone to supervise and steer them that is not another scientist/engineer - because then it would be 3 people pushing their opinions around -, best someone who is very experienced in herding cats


Or you just have the scientists and engineers vote on who is in charge of specific projects.


See my edit about consensus. Not possible with scientists.

Politicians strive for the most profit, scientists strive to be the only one who is right... so considering politics, we are better off with politicians than with scientists :p

What world are you living in? I would claim that the exact opposite is true. Politicians form their ideologies before the election and then construct arguments to defend them. A true scientific approach would be to say "If I get elected I'll do my best to find the best solution to all our problems through scientific inquiry and research." and basically adhere to no ideology whatsoever.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 11:46:36
August 12 2011 11:46 GMT
#84
On August 12 2011 20:33 Diks wrote:
Can someone please bring a realistical definition of politician ? Because as a non-expert I might say shit


A politician is an individual who governs from public office. A career politician is a person who specializes in achieving/maintaining public office and influencing public policy using that office.
Aterons_toss
Profile Joined February 2011
Romania1275 Posts
August 12 2011 11:48 GMT
#85
Yes it would, hell in theory comunism might be even better but in practice no.
Every and i mean EVERY kind of leadership is formed of mainly thieves, retards and ppl lead by there own interest, democracy just make sure we change the thieves that lead once in a while so that we can't have someone like... so many examples i can't chose.... Stalin, Hitler,Constantine and OH so many others lead a country for 50 years and lead it to ruin... they can only do so for about 4 years.
Technocracy is a great concept but you know who will end up leading ? Brats that payed for a diploma... i think there were actually technocrat countries for short periods of time so just look what happened to them.
A good strategy means leaving your opponent room to make mistakes
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
August 12 2011 11:50 GMT
#86
I've already bit off more than I want to chew today in the Bear thread and a few more places, so I'll just say 'no', and then leave you with this essay by George Orwell.

+ Show Spoiler +
George Orwell

What is Science?

In last week's Tribune, there was an interesting letter from Mr. J. Stewart Cook, in which he suggested that the best way of avoiding the danger of a ‘scientific hierarchy’ would be to see to it that every member of the general public was, as far as possible, scientifically educated. At the same time, scientists should be brought out of their isolation and encouraged to take a greater part in politics and administration.

As a general statement, I think most of us would agree with this, but I notice that, as usual, Mr. Cook does not define science, and merely implies in passing that it means certain exact sciences whose experiments can be made under laboratory conditions. Thus, adult education tends ‘to neglect scientific studies in favour of literary, economic and social subjects’, economics and sociology not being regarded as branches of science. Apparently. This point is of great importance. For the word science is at present used in at least two meanings, and the whole question of scientific education is obscured by the current tendency to dodge from one meaning to the other.

Science is generally taken as meaning either (a) the exact sciences, such as chemistry, physics, etc., or (b) a method of thought which obtains verifiable results by reasoning logically from observed fact.
If you ask any scientist, or indeed almost any educated person, ‘What is science?’ you are likely to get an answer approximating to (b). In everyday life, however, both in speaking and in writing, when people say ‘science’ they mean (a). Science means something that happens in a laboratory: the very word calls up a picture of graphs, test-tubes, balances, Bunsen burners, microscopes. A biologist, and astronomer, perhaps a psychologist or a mathematician is described as a ‘man of science’: no one would think of applying this term to a statesman, a poet, a journalist or even a philosopher. And those who tell us that the young must be scientifically educated mean, almost invariably, that they should be taught more about radioactivity, or the stars, or the physiology or their own bodies, rather than that they should be taught to think more exactly.

This confusion of meaning, which is partly deliberate, has in it a great danger. Implied in the demand for more scientific education is the claim that if one has been scientifically trained one's approach to all subjects will be more intelligent than if one had had no such training. A scientist's political opinions, it is assumed, his opinions on sociological questions, on morals, on philosophy, perhaps even on the arts, will be more valuable than those of a layman. The world, in other words, would be a better place if the scientists were in control of it. But a ‘scientist’, as we have just seen, means in practice a specialist in one of the exact sciences. It follows that a chemist or a physicist, as such, is politically more intelligent than a poet or a lawyer, as such. And, in fact, there are already millions of people who do believe this.

But is it really true that a ‘scientist’, in this narrower sense, is any likelier than other people to approach non-scientific problems in an objective way? There is not much reason for thinking so. Take one simple test — the ability to withstand nationalism. It is often loosely said that ‘Science is international’, but in practice the scientific workers of all countries line up behind their own governments with fewer scruples than are felt by the writers and the artists. The German scientific community, as a whole, made no resistance to Hitler. Hitler may have ruined the long-term prospects of German science, but there were still plenty of gifted men to do the necessary research on such things as synthetic oil, jet planes, rocket projectiles and the atomic bomb. Without them the German war machine could never have been built up.

On the other hand, what happened to German literature when the Nazis came to power? I believe no exhaustive lists have been published, but I imagine that the number of German scientists — Jews apart — who voluntarily exiled themselves or were persecuted by the règime was much smaller than the number of writers and journalists. More sinister than this, a number of German scientists swallowed the monstrosity of ‘racial science’. You can find some of the statements to which they set their names in Professor Brady's The Spirit and Structure of German Fascism.

But, in slightly different forms, it is the same picture everywhere. In England, a large proportion of our leading scientists accept the structure of capitalist society, as can be seen from the comparative freedom with which they are given knighthoods, baronetcies and even peerages. Since Tennyson, no English writer worth reading — one might, perhaps, make an exception of Sir Max Beerbohm — has been given a title. And those English scientists who do not simply accept the status quo are frequently Communists, which means that, however intellectually scrupulous they may be in their own line of work, they are ready to be uncritical and even dishonest on certain subjects. The fact is that a mere training in one or more of the exact sciences, even combined with very high gifts, is no guarantee of a humane or sceptical outlook. The physicists of half a dozen great nations, all feverishly and secretly working away at the atomic bomb, are a demonstration of this.
But does all this mean that the general public should not be more scientifically educated? On the contrary! All it means is that scientific education for the masses will do little good, and probably a lot of harm, if it simply boils down to more physics, more chemistry, more biology, etc., to the detriment of literature and history. Its probable effect on the average human being would be to narrow the range of his thoughts and make him more than ever contemptuous of such knowledge as he did not possess: and his political reactions would probably be somewhat less intelligent than those of an illiterate peasant who retained a few historical memories and a fairly sound aesthetic sense.

Clearly, scientific education ought to mean the implanting of a rational, sceptical, experimental habit of mind. It ought to mean acquiring a method — a method that can be used on any problem that one meets — and not simply piling up a lot of facts. Put it in those words, and the apologist of scientific education will usually agree. Press him further, ask him to particularize, and somehow it always turns out that scientific education means more attention to the sciences, in other words — more facts. The idea that science means a way of looking at the world, and not simply a body of knowledge, is in practice strongly resisted. I think sheer professional jealousy is part of the reason for this. For if science is simply a method or an attitude, so that anyone whose thought-processes are sufficiently rational can in some sense be described as a scientist — what then becomes of the enormous prestige now enjoyed by the chemist, the physicist, etc. and his claim to be somehow wiser than the rest of us?

A hundred years ago, Charles Kingsley described science as ‘making nasty smell in a laboratory’. A year or two ago a young industrial chemist informed me, smugly, that he ‘could not see what was the use of poetry’. So the pendulum swings to and fro, but it does not seem to me that one attitude is any better than the other. At the moment, science is on the upgrade, and so we hear, quite rightly, the claim that the masses should be scientifically educated: we do not hear, as we ought, the counter-claim that the scientists themselves would benefit by a little education. Just before writing this, I saw in an American magazine the statement that a number of British and American physicists refused from the start to do research on the atomic bomb, well knowing what use would be made of it. Here you have a group of same men in the middle of a world of lunatics. And though no names were published, I think it would be a safe guess that all of them were people with some kind of general cultural background, some acquaintance with history or literature or the arts — in short, people whose interests were not, in the current sense of the word, purely scientific.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
nam nam
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden4672 Posts
August 12 2011 11:51 GMT
#87
On August 12 2011 20:29 Morfildur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 20:25 sunprince wrote:
On August 12 2011 20:20 Morfildur wrote:
If you've ever seen scientists and engineers in a team, you know that it won't work.


Have you seen politicians in a team?

On August 12 2011 20:20 Morfildur wrote:
You need someone to supervise and steer them that is not another scientist/engineer - because then it would be 3 people pushing their opinions around -, best someone who is very experienced in herding cats


Or you just have the scientists and engineers vote on who is in charge of specific projects.


See my edit about consensus. Not possible with scientists.

Politicians strive for the most profit, scientists strive to be the only one who is right... so considering politics, we are better off with politicians than with scientists :p


If provided with sufficient evidence, there can be massive consensus among scientist. Much unlike how the political system works today.
Mecker
Profile Joined December 2010
Sweden219 Posts
August 12 2011 11:53 GMT
#88
On August 12 2011 20:48 Aterons_toss wrote:
Yes it would, hell in theory comunism might be even better but in practice no.
Every and i mean EVERY kind of leadership is formed of mainly thieves, retards and ppl lead by there own interest, democracy just make sure we change the thieves that lead once in a while so that we can't have someone like... so many examples i can't chose.... Stalin, Hitler,Constantine and OH so many others lead a country for 50 years and lead it to ruin...

You can do the same thing in a technocracy.


Technocracy is a great concept but you know who will end up leading ? Brats that payed for a diploma... i think there were actually technocrat countries for short periods of time so just look what happened to them.

Please read my previous post on this page. A "brat with a payed for diploma" would have to be able to stand up in a proper, rational debate against other scientists and the public. You've made two strawman arguments against technocracy in your post - got any more?
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
August 12 2011 11:56 GMT
#89
On August 12 2011 20:48 Aterons_toss wrote:
Technocracy is a great concept but you know who will end up leading ? Brats that payed for a diploma... i think there were actually technocrat countries for short periods of time so just look what happened to them.


Modern-day China is fairly technocratic given that most of the leaders of this generation happen to be technocrats. Considering where China was when they started, they're doing pretty damn well.
Jombozeus
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
China1014 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 11:59:46
August 12 2011 11:58 GMT
#90
@Jibba

1. That man died 60 years ago
2. That man thought of the current world having dominated by the Big Brother for the past 3 decades
3. "Scientists" are not mutually exclusive from engineers, doctors and economists.
4. Hes a writer, he is subjected to the bias he hypocritically speaks of. Technocracy does not imply perfection.
5. Holy crap is George Orwell overhyped.
Mecker
Profile Joined December 2010
Sweden219 Posts
August 12 2011 12:04 GMT
#91
On August 12 2011 20:50 Jibba wrote:
I've already bit off more than I want to chew today in the Bear thread and a few more places, so I'll just say 'no', and then leave you with this essay by George Orwell.

+ Show Spoiler +
George Orwell

What is Science?

In last week's Tribune, there was an interesting letter from Mr. J. Stewart Cook, in which he suggested that the best way of avoiding the danger of a ‘scientific hierarchy’ would be to see to it that every member of the general public was, as far as possible, scientifically educated. At the same time, scientists should be brought out of their isolation and encouraged to take a greater part in politics and administration.

As a general statement, I think most of us would agree with this, but I notice that, as usual, Mr. Cook does not define science, and merely implies in passing that it means certain exact sciences whose experiments can be made under laboratory conditions. Thus, adult education tends ‘to neglect scientific studies in favour of literary, economic and social subjects’, economics and sociology not being regarded as branches of science. Apparently. This point is of great importance. For the word science is at present used in at least two meanings, and the whole question of scientific education is obscured by the current tendency to dodge from one meaning to the other.

Science is generally taken as meaning either (a) the exact sciences, such as chemistry, physics, etc., or (b) a method of thought which obtains verifiable results by reasoning logically from observed fact.
If you ask any scientist, or indeed almost any educated person, ‘What is science?’ you are likely to get an answer approximating to (b). In everyday life, however, both in speaking and in writing, when people say ‘science’ they mean (a). Science means something that happens in a laboratory: the very word calls up a picture of graphs, test-tubes, balances, Bunsen burners, microscopes. A biologist, and astronomer, perhaps a psychologist or a mathematician is described as a ‘man of science’: no one would think of applying this term to a statesman, a poet, a journalist or even a philosopher. And those who tell us that the young must be scientifically educated mean, almost invariably, that they should be taught more about radioactivity, or the stars, or the physiology or their own bodies, rather than that they should be taught to think more exactly.

This confusion of meaning, which is partly deliberate, has in it a great danger. Implied in the demand for more scientific education is the claim that if one has been scientifically trained one's approach to all subjects will be more intelligent than if one had had no such training. A scientist's political opinions, it is assumed, his opinions on sociological questions, on morals, on philosophy, perhaps even on the arts, will be more valuable than those of a layman. The world, in other words, would be a better place if the scientists were in control of it. But a ‘scientist’, as we have just seen, means in practice a specialist in one of the exact sciences. It follows that a chemist or a physicist, as such, is politically more intelligent than a poet or a lawyer, as such. And, in fact, there are already millions of people who do believe this.

But is it really true that a ‘scientist’, in this narrower sense, is any likelier than other people to approach non-scientific problems in an objective way? There is not much reason for thinking so. Take one simple test — the ability to withstand nationalism. It is often loosely said that ‘Science is international’, but in practice the scientific workers of all countries line up behind their own governments with fewer scruples than are felt by the writers and the artists. The German scientific community, as a whole, made no resistance to Hitler. Hitler may have ruined the long-term prospects of German science, but there were still plenty of gifted men to do the necessary research on such things as synthetic oil, jet planes, rocket projectiles and the atomic bomb. Without them the German war machine could never have been built up.

On the other hand, what happened to German literature when the Nazis came to power? I believe no exhaustive lists have been published, but I imagine that the number of German scientists — Jews apart — who voluntarily exiled themselves or were persecuted by the règime was much smaller than the number of writers and journalists. More sinister than this, a number of German scientists swallowed the monstrosity of ‘racial science’. You can find some of the statements to which they set their names in Professor Brady's The Spirit and Structure of German Fascism.

But, in slightly different forms, it is the same picture everywhere. In England, a large proportion of our leading scientists accept the structure of capitalist society, as can be seen from the comparative freedom with which they are given knighthoods, baronetcies and even peerages. Since Tennyson, no English writer worth reading — one might, perhaps, make an exception of Sir Max Beerbohm — has been given a title. And those English scientists who do not simply accept the status quo are frequently Communists, which means that, however intellectually scrupulous they may be in their own line of work, they are ready to be uncritical and even dishonest on certain subjects. The fact is that a mere training in one or more of the exact sciences, even combined with very high gifts, is no guarantee of a humane or sceptical outlook. The physicists of half a dozen great nations, all feverishly and secretly working away at the atomic bomb, are a demonstration of this.
But does all this mean that the general public should not be more scientifically educated? On the contrary! All it means is that scientific education for the masses will do little good, and probably a lot of harm, if it simply boils down to more physics, more chemistry, more biology, etc., to the detriment of literature and history. Its probable effect on the average human being would be to narrow the range of his thoughts and make him more than ever contemptuous of such knowledge as he did not possess: and his political reactions would probably be somewhat less intelligent than those of an illiterate peasant who retained a few historical memories and a fairly sound aesthetic sense.

Clearly, scientific education ought to mean the implanting of a rational, sceptical, experimental habit of mind. It ought to mean acquiring a method — a method that can be used on any problem that one meets — and not simply piling up a lot of facts. Put it in those words, and the apologist of scientific education will usually agree. Press him further, ask him to particularize, and somehow it always turns out that scientific education means more attention to the sciences, in other words — more facts. The idea that science means a way of looking at the world, and not simply a body of knowledge, is in practice strongly resisted. I think sheer professional jealousy is part of the reason for this. For if science is simply a method or an attitude, so that anyone whose thought-processes are sufficiently rational can in some sense be described as a scientist — what then becomes of the enormous prestige now enjoyed by the chemist, the physicist, etc. and his claim to be somehow wiser than the rest of us?

A hundred years ago, Charles Kingsley described science as ‘making nasty smell in a laboratory’. A year or two ago a young industrial chemist informed me, smugly, that he ‘could not see what was the use of poetry’. So the pendulum swings to and fro, but it does not seem to me that one attitude is any better than the other. At the moment, science is on the upgrade, and so we hear, quite rightly, the claim that the masses should be scientifically educated: we do not hear, as we ought, the counter-claim that the scientists themselves would benefit by a little education. Just before writing this, I saw in an American magazine the statement that a number of British and American physicists refused from the start to do research on the atomic bomb, well knowing what use would be made of it. Here you have a group of same men in the middle of a world of lunatics. And though no names were published, I think it would be a safe guess that all of them were people with some kind of general cultural background, some acquaintance with history or literature or the arts — in short, people whose interests were not, in the current sense of the word, purely scientific.

TLDR: Scientists can be un-scientific aswell!

Well, that's not an argument against technocracy. Any decision in a technocracy would be subject to scrutiny from scientists in any field as well from the public - once all the arguments have been put forth we will have a "winning" decision. If you are a rational person you would have to agree with this decision or put forth your argument as to why it is wrong.
craque
Profile Joined August 2011
United States32 Posts
August 12 2011 12:07 GMT
#92
Politically, those in power would likely be just as abusive and corrupt.

Socially however, this could potentially be awesome. It could place a tremendous amount of emphasis on education and an educated public would be much more capable of holding their leaders accountable and to high standards.
Awaiting true strategy
doubleupgradeobbies!
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Australia1187 Posts
August 12 2011 12:08 GMT
#93
In theory a Technocracy would be a good thing. But only in so far as you are just defining technical competence as a form of merit, and therefore proposing what is essentially a specific form of meritocracy.

The problem, as with all political systems, is in the execution. How exactly DO you get the experts in charge? Do you do it by vote(eg democracy)? a weighted voting system where people who are more technically able have a higher weighting on their votes? Do experts in their various fields decide who represents them? Universities? etc. The problem that arises, is exactly the same problem that every existing political system has, it is not the political system that is flawed, but the execution of said system due to human nature.

What is essentially being asked, is would a specific form of meritocracy be better than systems that are not meritocracies. Only an idiot would disagree, obviously by definition, in a meritocracy, those who have merit are in charge. A technocracy is merely defining merit in terms of technical ability. It is only really a meaningful question to ask HOW we can implement a technocracy(or any other form of meritocracy).

As an abstract aside a Democracy can be looked at as a form of meritocracy, where merit is defined as the ability to attract the most (or the right) votes. While the definition of merit is a bit wonky in a democracy, it is conceptually an interesting abstraction of a meritocracy to look at.
MSL, 2003-2011, RIP. OSL, 2000-2012, RIP. Proleague, 2003-2012, RIP. And then there was none... Even good things must come to an end.
SharkSpider
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada606 Posts
August 12 2011 12:12 GMT
#94
I'm down as long as mathematicians get to be in charge of numbers.


In all seriousness, the biggest problem with the idea is that academia is self-selecting over time. I can see some really bad things happening if, for example, psychology, political science and gender studies majors were the ones calling the shots on criminal law, diplomacy and gender politics decisions. The downfall of "peer review" in non-scientific fields is that it already has the potential to filter out things the group of leading PHDs don't see any merit in.
Saechiis
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Netherlands4989 Posts
August 12 2011 12:16 GMT
#95
An autistocracy beats both.
I think esports is pretty nice.
Traeon
Profile Joined July 2010
Austria366 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 12:25:03
August 12 2011 12:20 GMT
#96
Well, that's not an argument against technocracy. Any decision in a technocracy would be subject to scrutiny from scientists in any field as well from the public - once all the arguments have been put forth we will have a "winning" decision. If you are a rational person you would have to agree with this decision or put forth your argument as to why it is wrong.


Science is not the pinnacle of objectiveness and understanding that many mistaken it for. At least when it comes to complex systems such as economy or medicine. There is always a human bias.

Take the example in my quote. If we were to select a committee of scientists from various fields and backgrounds - how would we do this? Who gets to decide which scientist has merit and which doesn't? The people in charge of selecting the committee are inevitably going to be biased.

In all seriousness, the biggest problem with the idea is that academia is self-selecting over time.


This is also very important. Academia is also subject to human bias and inclinations, and the tendency is towards unification of opinions instead of diversification.

sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 12:27:10
August 12 2011 12:23 GMT
#97
On August 12 2011 21:20 Traeon wrote:
Science is not the pinnacle of objectiveness and understanding that many mistaken it for. At least when it comes to complex systems such as economy or medicine. There is always a human bias.


Voters in a democracy are biased too, and probably moreso than scientists.

Are scientists are flawless and perfectly objective? No. Are they better at policy-making than the ignorant public? Hell yes.

On August 12 2011 21:20 Traeon wrote:
Take the example in my quote. If we were to select a committee of scientists from various fields and backgrounds - how would we do this? Who gets to decide which scientist has merit and which doesn't? The people in charge of selecting the committee are inevitably going to be biased.


We already have the National Academies, who already advise our political leaders. All they'd have to do is vote on representatives. We also already have bureaucracies staffed by technocrats. All they'd have to do is be given more autonomy.

On August 12 2011 21:20 Traeon wrote:
This is also very important. Academia is also subject to human bias and inclinations, and the tendency is towards unification of opinions instead of diversification.


Such is the nature of all human thought, not just academics.
zalz
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Netherlands3704 Posts
August 12 2011 12:28 GMT
#98
Bad idea

Knowing a lot about a certain field in no way prepares you for leading such a field.
Mecker
Profile Joined December 2010
Sweden219 Posts
August 12 2011 12:32 GMT
#99
On August 12 2011 21:20 Traeon wrote:
Show nested quote +
Well, that's not an argument against technocracy. Any decision in a technocracy would be subject to scrutiny from scientists in any field as well from the public - once all the arguments have been put forth we will have a "winning" decision. If you are a rational person you would have to agree with this decision or put forth your argument as to why it is wrong.


Science is not the pinnacle of objectiveness and understanding that many mistaken it for. At least when it comes to complex systems such as economy or medicine. There is always a human bias
.
I'm not sure what you're getting at. The scientific approach is the best approach we as humans can have. Stating that there is always a human bias doesn't really add much to the discussion. Yes, I agree, human bias is quite common. Rational debate can easily extract these biases thus rendering them mute.

Take the example in my quote. If we were to select a committee of scientists from various fields and backgrounds - how would we do this? Who gets to decide which scientist has merit and which doesn't? The people in charge of selecting the committee are inevitably going to be biased.

How? I don't know, ask someone who has a relevant education. There is no reason to believe that it is impossible or even very complicated for that matter. A committee of thousands of merited scientists would have a lot of biases - all rendered mute simply through rational debate. Selecting the committee could be a democratic process (Which is inherently biased aswell).

Not sure what your argument against technocracy is.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
August 12 2011 12:34 GMT
#100
On August 12 2011 21:28 zalz wrote:
Knowing a lot about a certain field in no way prepares you for leading such a field.


No, but it prepares you to vote on decisions made in such a field, which is the point of a technocracy.
Mecker
Profile Joined December 2010
Sweden219 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 12:36:15
August 12 2011 12:35 GMT
#101
On August 12 2011 21:28 zalz wrote:
Bad idea

Knowing a lot about a certain field in no way prepares you for leading such a field.

Not sure who claims that a single person would make any decision on their own. Why would a person who is good at collecting votes from an irrational public be any better than people who actually have some knowledge of what the decisions they are making imply.
Supter
Profile Joined February 2011
France382 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 12:44:17
August 12 2011 12:39 GMT
#102
I don't know if it's really relevant, but (obviously) i think it is.

In France, when Charles de Gaulle was president (1958-1969 if i remember correctly), he tried to change our legislative power.
It's actually the "Assemblée nationale", with deputies (elected by everyone), and the "Sénat" with politicians elected by deputies, mayors and others. But not by the regular people.

He proposed to change de Sénat and to create another Chamber.
It would have been a non-elected chamber with representants of differents professions, like lawyer, medicine, syndicates (in french "syndicats", idk what the real english word is, but google told me it was syndicates or federation :o ), and so on.

I'm not a great fan of Charles de Gaulle, but i think it was a really good idea, i mean, it would have been a perfect compromise between democracy and technocracy : the people decide, because you cannot decide for themselves, but the men with the knowledge can say what they think is the best for everybody, even if they can't decide (to many risks of corruption).

Hope my english wasnt too poor (it's easy to talk about starcraft, but quite hard to speak about politics and history :D)
Traeon
Profile Joined July 2010
Austria366 Posts
August 12 2011 12:39 GMT
#103
On August 12 2011 21:32 Mecker wrote:
There is no reason to believe that it is impossible or even very complicated for that matter. A committee of thousands of merited scientists would have a lot of biases - all rendered mute simply through rational debate.


You have a naive, idealistic view of things.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 12:50:45
August 12 2011 12:47 GMT
#104
On August 12 2011 21:39 Traeon wrote:
You have a naive, idealistic view of things.


Are you saying the uninformed/uneducated public is less biased than technocrats?
Traeon
Profile Joined July 2010
Austria366 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 12:54:25
August 12 2011 12:53 GMT
#105
On August 12 2011 21:47 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 21:39 Traeon wrote:
You have a naive, idealistic view of things.


Are you saying the uninformed/uneducated public is less biased than technocrats?


I said his view is naive and idealistic.

Strawmanning much?
gumshoe
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada3602 Posts
August 12 2011 12:56 GMT
#106
Ever read player piano? Essentially technology begins to steadily replace everyone except the engineers that make the tech. The engineers are corrupt and blinded by their power and almost everyone else lacks a satisfying job, technocracy is a recipe for the worst kind of elitism, a society in which only a select few professions are considered meaningful.
gumshoe bullshitting at 120%~~Prplz
Archaron
Profile Joined June 2011
New Zealand8 Posts
August 12 2011 12:57 GMT
#107
the problem with this system is that everyday people have no power what so ever and are dictated to how to properly live there lives even though they might not want to listen essential making this a subform of dictatorship. sure this would work if every1 was a robot and didnt have individual feelings but we do. the idea of having someone from the field in which they are leading is a good one however the job of ministers is not neccesarly to further the development of said industry or country but to simply get realected so if u feel a minister orpolitical group is doing a bad job with electing its ministers then dont vote for them and find some1 who does promote there ministers correctly and vote for them
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
August 12 2011 12:57 GMT
#108
On August 12 2011 18:02 Newbistic wrote:
The real question is whether or not a technocracy can even form in the real world, and the answer is pretty much no.

Even if it is yes, professionalism and knowledge does not guarantee personal accountability or integrity in any shape way or form, so those in power are still easily corruptible. Those who aren't in power will be the masses, who simply can't all be so educated as to be able to know everything they need to know to be "informed citizens". Mankind simply isn't education-centered enough to be able to handle such a form of government.

The point is not to create flawless system, but something better than current one. Professional in a given field has bigger likelihood of not fucking up than amateur. Yes both can be corrupt, but one is still better than the other. Of course checks and balance still need to be present.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
August 12 2011 12:57 GMT
#109
On August 12 2011 21:53 Traeon wrote:
I said his view is naive and idealistic.

Strawmanning much?


The crux of his argument is that a technocracy is superior to a democracy because technocrats are less biased than the general public.

If you are not disagreeing with that, what's your point?
bonifaceviii
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada2890 Posts
August 12 2011 12:58 GMT
#110
Sounds like union rule and self-regulation, both of which are horrible.
Stay a while and listen || http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=354018
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 13:03:47
August 12 2011 13:01 GMT
#111
On August 12 2011 21:56 gumshoe wrote:
Ever read player piano? Essentially technology begins to steadily replace everyone except the engineers that make the tech. The engineers are corrupt and blinded by their power and almost everyone else lacks a satisfying job, technocracy is a recipe for the worst kind of elitism, a society in which only a select few professions are considered meaningful.


You're conflating distopyian capitalism with technocracy.

On August 12 2011 21:57 Archaron wrote:
the problem with this system is that everyday people have no power what so ever and are dictated to how to properly live there lives even though they might not want to listen essential making this a subform of dictatorship. sure this would work if every1 was a robot and didnt have individual feelings but we do. the idea of having someone from the field in which they are leading is a good one however the job of ministers is not neccesarly to further the development of said industry or country but to simply get realected so if u feel a minister orpolitical group is doing a bad job with electing its ministers then dont vote for them and find some1 who does promote there ministers correctly and vote for them


You need to read up on what a technocracy is.

On August 12 2011 21:58 bonifaceviii wrote:
Sounds like union rule and self-regulation, both of which are horrible.


Quite the opposite. Bureaucracies actually gain more power, meaning that there is typically more regulation, not less. For example, if the Environmental Protection Agency had real political power, don't you think corporations would be better regulated?
Celadan
Profile Joined September 2010
Norway471 Posts
August 12 2011 13:05 GMT
#112
Both of those options actually suck if you mean democracy as in a Representative democracy.
None of these options is specially viable.
спеціальна Тактика
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
August 12 2011 13:08 GMT
#113
On August 12 2011 20:09 bech wrote:
The main problem with a technocracy is that while they may be the best in their respective fields, this in no way translates to political skill. Politics is more than knowing what the best thing to do is, it's also about persuading those with different beliefs into following you in that decision, and being able to make the right compromises whilst also forcing others to compromise in order to reach the best possible solution.

Some of the brightest minds in our society have no skills in this area whatsoever, which is why a technocratic leader would have a hard time governing his/her respective field. What you're not seeing behind the scenes of the political arena is that while a business grad appointed the position of minister of science does not personally know much about science, his job is to convey the message and bargain with opposing powers, while his/her advisers, who are in fact experts in their fields, make suggestions on what needs to be done - just as the technocratic leader would. The only problem here is that the advisers only advise - they don't decide.

There is no requirement they have to be the best in their field. They have to be reasonable in their field, and you can find many such people that also have political skills.
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
August 12 2011 13:12 GMT
#114
On August 12 2011 20:20 Morfildur wrote:
If you've ever seen scientists and engineers in a team, you know that it won't work.

The only way scientists and engineers talk to each other is through arguments on who is the better and if you assign two scientists/engineers on one project without supervision it will never finish because both will argue forever on which is the best approach to start.
You need someone to supervise and steer them that is not another scientist/engineer - because then it would be 3 people pushing their opinions around -, best someone who is very experienced in herding cats


EDIT:
About "consensus"... in a group of X scientists and engineers, there are exactly X+1 opinons on the right choice and everyone is convinced that exactly X of the other opinions are totally wrong and will ruin everything.

Strange how in all my experience the third guy that supervises was also an engineer and it was never a problem. You just need to choose an engineer that has organizational skills.
zalz
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Netherlands3704 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 13:14:46
August 12 2011 13:13 GMT
#115
On August 12 2011 21:34 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 21:28 zalz wrote:
Knowing a lot about a certain field in no way prepares you for leading such a field.


No, but it prepares you to vote on decisions made in such a field, which is the point of a technocracy.


Yes, and these decisions would be of an administrative nature, something wich has nearly no relation to their actuall knowledge of the field.

Knowing how to perform brain surgery does not in any way shape or form train you to actually run a brain surgery department or a hospital.


And that is what you would get. People judging over decisions wich we think they know a lot about whilst in reality they probably have little to no clue about such matters.

A garbageman doesn't know how to run a garbage facility, all he knows is how to pick up the garbage and drive the car.


But in this system of government we can't vote out the incompetent people rather then in a democracy whilst both officials would have the same ammount of knowledge on any given subkect.
Tarot
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada440 Posts
August 12 2011 13:13 GMT
#116
Maybe a technocracy won't work but at the very least, I would like some unified and influential group of experts from various fields that fact checks the stuff that politicians say. Maybe they won't make decisions but point out things that are blatantly wrong, or misleading to the general public.
zalz
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Netherlands3704 Posts
August 12 2011 13:16 GMT
#117
On August 12 2011 22:13 Tarot wrote:
Maybe a technocracy won't work but at the very least, I would like some unified and influential group of experts from various fields that fact checks the stuff that politicians say. Maybe they won't make decisions but point out things that are blatantly wrong, or misleading to the general public.


You have some sites that check what people say to make sure if it's fact or not.

I think America has a site called politifact or something similar.


But i don't see the use of it. The vast majority will not bother to look it up.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 13:16:34
August 12 2011 13:16 GMT
#118
On August 12 2011 22:13 zalz wrote:
Yes, and these decisions would be of an administrative nature, something wich has nearly no relation to their actuall knowledge of the field.

Knowing how to perform brain surgery does not in any way shape or form train you to actually run a brain surgery department or a hospital.


We also have people with PhDs in public health and health administration, you know. Those would be the relevant experts here. Brain surgeons would be called upon to decide issues related only to brain surgery.

On August 12 2011 22:13 zalz wrote:
And that is what you would get. People judging over decisions wich we think they know a lot about whilst in reality they probably have little to no clue about such matters.

A garbageman doesn't know how to run a garbage facility, all he knows is how to pick up the garbage and drive the car.

But in this system of government we can't vote out the incompetent people rather then in a democracy whilst both officials would have the same ammount of knowledge on any given subkect.


No, you simply are making unfounded claims based on your ignorance of how a technocracy works.
Sablar
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Sweden880 Posts
August 12 2011 13:16 GMT
#119
I think many people seem regard scientists like some sort of rational, methodical robot that will carefully weigh the evidence and decide what is right.

Most obvious flaw is that scientists are just people. They are biased and corrupt and want to defend their own science. Possibly to lesser extent than current politicians defending their standpoints, but still enough to cause problems, and at least the general public are biased towards different things, in effect canceling it out a bit. Scientists are a bit more conform than that for good and bad.

They're also a social elite, more so than politicians. Not everyone becomes a professor, and most people have well-educated parents and are doing pretty good in society. They wouldn't be representable of the people. Also the role of scientist is different from being in power in society, and given this change it would be strange to assume that the generalizations like those I throw out about scientists would still be true, because people would probably change with power.

Also some seem to think that there is only 1 "rational decision" in a political situation but that is far from the case. Scientists agree about nothing and there are always different camps within diciplines much like political parties. Some sciences are harder to argue about than others, like math is probably right or wrong. Sociology and stuff regarding the whole society can't really be measured though, and there would never be a consensus or even close to it regarding what was right. This goes for economics, psychology etc as well.

All that said I would love to see more rational debates and less crap coming from politicians. I just don't think scientists would be any better at that, and I can't help thinking that it would turn into some elitist political mensa club. Making sure to consult those who have knowledge in fields relevant to decisions is of course important, but that's how it's done today.
Scaramanga
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Australia8090 Posts
August 12 2011 13:22 GMT
#120
Wouldn't people put agendas in their own fields over anything else society needs? If these leaders could work together then yeah i dont see why not
Loda talked about the fun counter, it's AdmiralBulldog on his natures prophet
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 13:29:59
August 12 2011 13:23 GMT
#121
On August 12 2011 22:16 Sablar wrote:
I think many people seem regard scientists like some sort of rational, methodical robot that will carefully weigh the evidence and decide what is right.


I don't think anyone has suggested this. Rather, they are beter than average people at rational, methodical thought, but obviously not perfect.

On August 12 2011 22:16 Sablar wrote:
Scientists agree about nothing and there are always different camps within diciplines much like political parties.


False. Scientists agree about a great many things. When they do disagree, then that's something you don't have enough knowledge to act on anyway.

On August 12 2011 22:16 Sablar wrote:
Sociology and stuff regarding the whole society can't really be measured though, and there would never be a consensus or even close to it regarding what was right. This goes for economics, psychology etc as well.


False. Look up a sociology or economics journal sometime. Both fields are rooted in empirical science. I can't speak for psychology personally, but I would assume the same is true of it as well. And again, there is plenty of consensus in every field. Just about everything studied up to the undergraduate level is scientific consensus. It's enough to fill vast libraries and most of Wikipedia.

You seem to be working off of popular stereotypes about science, without any idea of how it actually works.

On August 12 2011 22:16 Sablar wrote:
Making sure to consult those who have knowledge in fields relevant to decisions is of course important, but that's how it's done today.


Yes, but then the politicians ignore or override those experts, which is how we get a lot of problems.
Tarot
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada440 Posts
August 12 2011 13:25 GMT
#122
On August 12 2011 22:16 zalz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 22:13 Tarot wrote:
Maybe a technocracy won't work but at the very least, I would like some unified and influential group of experts from various fields that fact checks the stuff that politicians say. Maybe they won't make decisions but point out things that are blatantly wrong, or misleading to the general public.


You have some sites that check what people say to make sure if it's fact or not.

I think America has a site called politifact or something similar.


But i don't see the use of it. The vast majority will not bother to look it up.

I'm sure a lot of them exist but none of them actually have influence.
If something like that was on a television timeslot/channel where a lot of people would see it, i'm sure the politicians will be a lot more careful about the stuff they say.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
August 12 2011 13:28 GMT
#123
On August 12 2011 22:25 Tarot wrote:
I'm sure a lot of them exist but none of them actually have influence.
If something like that was on a television timeslot/channel where a lot of people would see it, i'm sure the politicians will be a lot more careful about the stuff they say.


No, they wouldn't. People voluntarily watch Fox News and assume every other network is lying. Why would the truth mean anything to them?

The public is stupid. It's a basic unofficial rule of political science.
Penke
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden346 Posts
August 12 2011 13:29 GMT
#124
Every way of ruling a coutry has it's good and bad aspects, none will work perfectly. Another quote from the good old Churchill is "Democracy is the worst polity, except all of the others".
mopy
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia19 Posts
August 12 2011 13:32 GMT
#125
I think democracy can work you just have make sure you get a wide spectrum of people into parliment. In Australia most politicians have background law or business, we don't have enough politicians with backgrounds in science, engineering, health, education ect.
Hermasaurus
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
54 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 13:38:42
August 12 2011 13:37 GMT
#126
On August 12 2011 22:16 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 22:13 zalz wrote:
Yes, and these decisions would be of an administrative nature, something wich has nearly no relation to their actuall knowledge of the field.

Knowing how to perform brain surgery does not in any way shape or form train you to actually run a brain surgery department or a hospital.


We also have people with PhDs in public health and health administration, you know. Those would be the relevant experts here. Brain surgeons would be called upon to decide issues related only to brain surgery.

Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 22:13 zalz wrote:
And that is what you would get. People judging over decisions wich we think they know a lot about whilst in reality they probably have little to no clue about such matters.

A garbageman doesn't know how to run a garbage facility, all he knows is how to pick up the garbage and drive the car.

But in this system of government we can't vote out the incompetent people rather then in a democracy whilst both officials would have the same ammount of knowledge on any given subkect.


No, you simply are making unfounded claims based on your ignorance of how a technocracy works.

No I'm not quite sure you are completely informed of technocracy. Why don't you take the time to explain to us who handles everyday national policy.
You seem to suggest that said professionals are only called on to handle matters in said field. Well who makes decisions based on citizen, rights taxes, healthcare etc etc etc? I'm not familiar with health care engineers.

You also seem to be 100% for technocracy. You live in the United States. You don't enjoy your freedom? Because the only contemporary technocracies are in East Asia, with limited civil rights in comparison to what we receive.

I don't claim America is perfect. In fact, the president and the average citizen probably has just as little power as anyone other form of government. We all know Pepsi, Coca Cola, and anyone in the Oil Industry calls the shots in this land. But that is another topic for another time.
And guess what, you've wandered into our school of tuna and we now have a taste of lion. We've talked to ourselves. We've communicated and said 'You know what, lion tastes good, let's go get some more lion'
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
August 12 2011 13:38 GMT
#127
On August 12 2011 22:32 mopy wrote:
I think democracy can work you just have make sure you get a wide spectrum of people into parliment. In Australia most politicians have background law or business, we don't have enough politicians with backgrounds in science, engineering, health, education ect.


You seem to be missing the cause.

The reason why most politicians are lawyers and businessmen (and military in some nations, including the US), is that the nature of democracy favors leaders who are skilled at getting elected and implementing their policy, which lawyers/businessmen/military leaders are better at than scientists/engineers/doctors/teachers.
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
August 12 2011 13:39 GMT
#128
On August 12 2011 20:50 Jibba wrote:
I've already bit off more than I want to chew today in the Bear thread and a few more places, so I'll just say 'no', and then leave you with this essay by George Orwell.

+ Show Spoiler +
George Orwell

What is Science?

In last week's Tribune, there was an interesting letter from Mr. J. Stewart Cook, in which he suggested that the best way of avoiding the danger of a ‘scientific hierarchy’ would be to see to it that every member of the general public was, as far as possible, scientifically educated. At the same time, scientists should be brought out of their isolation and encouraged to take a greater part in politics and administration.

As a general statement, I think most of us would agree with this, but I notice that, as usual, Mr. Cook does not define science, and merely implies in passing that it means certain exact sciences whose experiments can be made under laboratory conditions. Thus, adult education tends ‘to neglect scientific studies in favour of literary, economic and social subjects’, economics and sociology not being regarded as branches of science. Apparently. This point is of great importance. For the word science is at present used in at least two meanings, and the whole question of scientific education is obscured by the current tendency to dodge from one meaning to the other.

Science is generally taken as meaning either (a) the exact sciences, such as chemistry, physics, etc., or (b) a method of thought which obtains verifiable results by reasoning logically from observed fact.
If you ask any scientist, or indeed almost any educated person, ‘What is science?’ you are likely to get an answer approximating to (b). In everyday life, however, both in speaking and in writing, when people say ‘science’ they mean (a). Science means something that happens in a laboratory: the very word calls up a picture of graphs, test-tubes, balances, Bunsen burners, microscopes. A biologist, and astronomer, perhaps a psychologist or a mathematician is described as a ‘man of science’: no one would think of applying this term to a statesman, a poet, a journalist or even a philosopher. And those who tell us that the young must be scientifically educated mean, almost invariably, that they should be taught more about radioactivity, or the stars, or the physiology or their own bodies, rather than that they should be taught to think more exactly.

This confusion of meaning, which is partly deliberate, has in it a great danger. Implied in the demand for more scientific education is the claim that if one has been scientifically trained one's approach to all subjects will be more intelligent than if one had had no such training. A scientist's political opinions, it is assumed, his opinions on sociological questions, on morals, on philosophy, perhaps even on the arts, will be more valuable than those of a layman. The world, in other words, would be a better place if the scientists were in control of it. But a ‘scientist’, as we have just seen, means in practice a specialist in one of the exact sciences. It follows that a chemist or a physicist, as such, is politically more intelligent than a poet or a lawyer, as such. And, in fact, there are already millions of people who do believe this.

But is it really true that a ‘scientist’, in this narrower sense, is any likelier than other people to approach non-scientific problems in an objective way? There is not much reason for thinking so. Take one simple test — the ability to withstand nationalism. It is often loosely said that ‘Science is international’, but in practice the scientific workers of all countries line up behind their own governments with fewer scruples than are felt by the writers and the artists. The German scientific community, as a whole, made no resistance to Hitler. Hitler may have ruined the long-term prospects of German science, but there were still plenty of gifted men to do the necessary research on such things as synthetic oil, jet planes, rocket projectiles and the atomic bomb. Without them the German war machine could never have been built up.

On the other hand, what happened to German literature when the Nazis came to power? I believe no exhaustive lists have been published, but I imagine that the number of German scientists — Jews apart — who voluntarily exiled themselves or were persecuted by the règime was much smaller than the number of writers and journalists. More sinister than this, a number of German scientists swallowed the monstrosity of ‘racial science’. You can find some of the statements to which they set their names in Professor Brady's The Spirit and Structure of German Fascism.

But, in slightly different forms, it is the same picture everywhere. In England, a large proportion of our leading scientists accept the structure of capitalist society, as can be seen from the comparative freedom with which they are given knighthoods, baronetcies and even peerages. Since Tennyson, no English writer worth reading — one might, perhaps, make an exception of Sir Max Beerbohm — has been given a title. And those English scientists who do not simply accept the status quo are frequently Communists, which means that, however intellectually scrupulous they may be in their own line of work, they are ready to be uncritical and even dishonest on certain subjects. The fact is that a mere training in one or more of the exact sciences, even combined with very high gifts, is no guarantee of a humane or sceptical outlook. The physicists of half a dozen great nations, all feverishly and secretly working away at the atomic bomb, are a demonstration of this.
But does all this mean that the general public should not be more scientifically educated? On the contrary! All it means is that scientific education for the masses will do little good, and probably a lot of harm, if it simply boils down to more physics, more chemistry, more biology, etc., to the detriment of literature and history. Its probable effect on the average human being would be to narrow the range of his thoughts and make him more than ever contemptuous of such knowledge as he did not possess: and his political reactions would probably be somewhat less intelligent than those of an illiterate peasant who retained a few historical memories and a fairly sound aesthetic sense.

Clearly, scientific education ought to mean the implanting of a rational, sceptical, experimental habit of mind. It ought to mean acquiring a method — a method that can be used on any problem that one meets — and not simply piling up a lot of facts. Put it in those words, and the apologist of scientific education will usually agree. Press him further, ask him to particularize, and somehow it always turns out that scientific education means more attention to the sciences, in other words — more facts. The idea that science means a way of looking at the world, and not simply a body of knowledge, is in practice strongly resisted. I think sheer professional jealousy is part of the reason for this. For if science is simply a method or an attitude, so that anyone whose thought-processes are sufficiently rational can in some sense be described as a scientist — what then becomes of the enormous prestige now enjoyed by the chemist, the physicist, etc. and his claim to be somehow wiser than the rest of us?

A hundred years ago, Charles Kingsley described science as ‘making nasty smell in a laboratory’. A year or two ago a young industrial chemist informed me, smugly, that he ‘could not see what was the use of poetry’. So the pendulum swings to and fro, but it does not seem to me that one attitude is any better than the other. At the moment, science is on the upgrade, and so we hear, quite rightly, the claim that the masses should be scientifically educated: we do not hear, as we ought, the counter-claim that the scientists themselves would benefit by a little education. Just before writing this, I saw in an American magazine the statement that a number of British and American physicists refused from the start to do research on the atomic bomb, well knowing what use would be made of it. Here you have a group of same men in the middle of a world of lunatics. And though no names were published, I think it would be a safe guess that all of them were people with some kind of general cultural background, some acquaintance with history or literature or the arts — in short, people whose interests were not, in the current sense of the word, purely scientific.

Orwell's text is full of conjecture's without supporting data. Also it has no bearing on discussion if technocracy(there are many flavors) would be improvement upon current system. Noone is probably saying it would be a perfect system.

Just to point out some problems I have with his arguments. He brings an example of scientists vs writers(+..) in Nazi Germany. Not that he actually has any data. In Eastern bloc the situation was in my opinion (again without any data, just my limited observation) somewhat different. But in general I think the situation is much more different. Scientists are just much less interested in politics and all the drama, they want to be left alone. So I would argue that even if he is right that there was more writers/artists/... that actively opposed nazism there was also more writers/artists/... that actively helped nazism. And since we are talking about opinions I will put forward my hypothesis. The way that writers/artists/... are easily recruited for a cause is more a bad thing than a good thing. As they are easily swayed by extremes on either side. From my own experience nations that have somewhat "cultural apathy" in national psyche are in the end much more peaceful. In some circumstances like defending against aggression it is a bad attribute, but in peaceful times it leads to less extremes, less drama. That was kind of off-topic, but shows why I dislike his argument.

That was just one of the problems with his opinion.
paradox_
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada270 Posts
August 12 2011 13:44 GMT
#129
Scientists and engineers aren't infallible or some how have more integrity than the average politician. Power corrupts and anyone in Academia will know they have their own politics in there. You give them power and it'll just turn into another shit show of disagreement that's a little more technically wordy.

There have been enough cases or research being stolen, papers being rejected by journals because the person on the board is doing the same research etc. Scientists are human, they're just specialized in a specific field of knowledge. Experts in science will disagree just as much as non-experts.

Now if you want the benefits a government like that can bring then it needs to change with the population. The government is a representation of the population, not the other way around. When the population changes to a more scientific oriented society, automatically the elected officials will change and represent this.
Sablar
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Sweden880 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 13:51:33
August 12 2011 13:44 GMT
#130
On August 12 2011 22:23 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 22:16 Sablar wrote:
I think many people seem regard scientists like some sort of rational, methodical robot that will carefully weigh the evidence and decide what is right.


I don't think anyone has suggested this. Rather, they are beter than average people at rational, methodical thought, but obviously not perfect.

Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 22:16 Sablar wrote:
Scientists agree about nothing and there are always different camps within diciplines much like political parties.


False. Scientists agree about a great many things. When they do disagree, then that's something you don't have enough knowledge to act on anyway.

Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 22:16 Sablar wrote:
Sociology and stuff regarding the whole society can't really be measured though, and there would never be a consensus or even close to it regarding what was right. This goes for economics, psychology etc as well.


False. Look up a sociology or economics journal sometime. Both fields are rooted in empirical science. I can't speak for psychology personally, but I would assume the same is true of it as well. And again, there is plenty of consensus in every field. Just about everything studied up to the undergraduate level is scientific consensus. It's enough to fill vast libraries and most of Wikipedia.

You seem to be working off of popular stereotypes about science, without any idea of how it actually works.

Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 22:16 Sablar wrote:
Making sure to consult those who have knowledge in fields relevant to decisions is of course important, but that's how it's done today.


Yes, but then the politicians ignore or override those experts, which is how we get a lot of problems.


Look at pretty much any field of science and people will be disaegreeing. From the existence of some theorized physical matter to the motivations of humans or the most important reasons behind unempoyment. There are contradicting results and camps with different ideas and discussions that pretty much never get settled. There isn't a consensus, instead text books are filled the "the x perspective" as opposed to "the y perspective".

Something being "rooted in empircal sciences" doesn't mean that is somehow objective or that there is a right answer. It's far too complicated to know about all the factors in society in order to make accurate preductions about economics or about how crime will be effected by different changes in society. You just can't control such variables and because of that science can't give any clear answers. At best there is good line of reasoning behind whatever prediction is made. In the end that line of reasoning may or may not be better than that of an elected politicians, but that alone doesn't make it a better system. Also sociology is more qualitative than quantitative overall.

So don't say things are false when they aren't, and don't question my character because I was the only one who admitted to using generalizations about scientists.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
August 12 2011 13:45 GMT
#131
On August 12 2011 22:37 Hermasaurus wrote:
You seem to suggest that said professionals are only called on to handle matters in said field. Well who makes decisions based on citizen, rights taxes, healthcare etc etc etc? I'm not familiar with health care engineers.


Civil rights are a matter for lawyers, philosophers, and ethicists, to decide. Taxes are an economics issue. Health care is managed by public health and healthcare administration experts. And so on.

On August 12 2011 22:37 Hermasaurus wrote:
You also seem to be 100% for technocracy. You live in the United States. You don't enjoy your freedom? Because the only contemporary technocracies are in East Asia, with limited civil rights in comparison to what we receive.


Technocracy does not imply less freedom. China happens to be technocratic, but it's a technocratic authoritarian government. There's no reason that you can't simply have a system much like the United States already is, except while giving technocrats more power to determine public policy rather than depending so much upon Congress.
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
August 12 2011 13:46 GMT
#132
On August 12 2011 21:20 Traeon wrote:
Show nested quote +
Well, that's not an argument against technocracy. Any decision in a technocracy would be subject to scrutiny from scientists in any field as well from the public - once all the arguments have been put forth we will have a "winning" decision. If you are a rational person you would have to agree with this decision or put forth your argument as to why it is wrong.


Science is not the pinnacle of objectiveness and understanding that many mistaken it for. At least when it comes to complex systems such as economy or medicine. There is always a human bias.

Take the example in my quote. If we were to select a committee of scientists from various fields and backgrounds - how would we do this? Who gets to decide which scientist has merit and which doesn't? The people in charge of selecting the committee are inevitably going to be biased.

Show nested quote +
In all seriousness, the biggest problem with the idea is that academia is self-selecting over time.


This is also very important. Academia is also subject to human bias and inclinations, and the tendency is towards unification of opinions instead of diversification.


And do you know any more objective systems created by humans ? If no, than since noone is arguing perfection, just improvement upon current state I see no problem.
zalz
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Netherlands3704 Posts
August 12 2011 13:48 GMT
#133
On August 12 2011 22:16 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 22:13 zalz wrote:
Yes, and these decisions would be of an administrative nature, something wich has nearly no relation to their actuall knowledge of the field.

Knowing how to perform brain surgery does not in any way shape or form train you to actually run a brain surgery department or a hospital.


We also have people with PhDs in public health and health administration, you know. Those would be the relevant experts here. Brain surgeons would be called upon to decide issues related only to brain surgery.

Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 22:13 zalz wrote:
And that is what you would get. People judging over decisions wich we think they know a lot about whilst in reality they probably have little to no clue about such matters.

A garbageman doesn't know how to run a garbage facility, all he knows is how to pick up the garbage and drive the car.

But in this system of government we can't vote out the incompetent people rather then in a democracy whilst both officials would have the same ammount of knowledge on any given subkect.


No, you simply are making unfounded claims based on your ignorance of how a technocracy works.


Well the problem with your version of a technocracy is that it's more commonly known as a dictatorship.

All you suggest be done is that politicians are removed and with it, democratic election, and then you suggest we go on about our business as usual.

Who do you think are running hospitals right now? Those very same people with PhD's in public health and administration. Who judges over brain surgery cases? Brain surgeons.

Who judges over the grand scheme of things? Politics on a national level? Politicians. Except you want to remove elections...


So basically your perceived notion of technocracy boils down to "same shit as we got right now, but remove elections".

Power that cannot be held accountable sounds like a good idea to you?
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
August 12 2011 13:51 GMT
#134
On August 12 2011 22:44 paradox_ wrote:
Scientists and engineers aren't infallible or some how have more integrity than the average politician. Power corrupts and anyone in Academia will know they have their own politics in there. You give them power and it'll just turn into another shit show of disagreement that's a little more technically wordy.

There have been enough cases or research being stolen, papers being rejected by journals because the person on the board is doing the same research etc. Scientists are human, they're just specialized in a specific field of knowledge.


Scientists and engineers aren't the equivalent of politicians in a technocracy. Rather, scientists and engineers are the equivalent of citizens, while leaders of the scientific community are equivalent to politicians. The idea is that citizens should not get to vote or elect representatives to vote on issues on which they have no knowledge or expertise.

On August 12 2011 22:44 paradox_ wrote:
Experts in science will disagree just as much as non-experts.


False. Experts in science have a shared knoweldge base generally accept many foundational ideas even if they disagree on details. For example, most people seem to have a very wrong idea that there is disagreement about evolution, when scientists overwhelmingly accept evolution as fact and disagree only on details.

To use a Starcraft analogy, professional Starcraft players agree on a lot more elements of strategy than noobs do, even if they have intense disagreements with each other over the details.
Probe1
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States17920 Posts
August 12 2011 13:52 GMT
#135
I'd rather stick my dick in a toaster than get caught up in this discussion but I feel the need to weigh in without considering others opinions anyway.

A technocracy has the same failing as communism or even Monarchies in all their related forms. On paper it sounds GREAT. In reality they become hopelessly corrupt in a very short time. Cool idea, doesn't work.

If we manage to stop killing each other over TVs and raping people for fun just long enough to be as civilized as we consider ourselves then yeah this form of government would be fantastic. Until then..

Well, the OP likes catchy quotes.

Many forms of Gov­ern­ment have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pre­tends that democ­racy is per­fect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democ­racy is the worst form of Gov­ern­ment except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…
우정호 KT_VIOLET 1988 - 2012 While we are postponing, life speeds by
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
August 12 2011 13:59 GMT
#136
On August 12 2011 22:48 zalz wrote:
Well the problem with your version of a technocracy is that it's more commonly known as a dictatorship.

All you suggest be done is that politicians are removed and with it, democratic election, and then you suggest we go on about our business as usual.


Please review my posts to learn why you are mistaken.

On August 12 2011 22:48 zalz wrote:
Who do you think are running hospitals right now? Those very same people with PhD's in public health and administration. Who judges over brain surgery cases? Brain surgeons.

Who judges over the grand scheme of things? Politics on a national level? Politicians. Except you want to remove elections...


When considering technocracy vs. democracy, we're obviously considering things from a public policy standpoint, not who runs hospitals or performs brain surgery. In other words, who makes laws that hospitals and brain surgeons have to follow.

If we did have a more technocratic government, then the health care reform debate would primarily be driven by expert knowledge on how to bring down health care costs. Rather than health care reform that would be the consensus of public health professionals, we instead got a bill that primarily served political interests and did little to curtail dramatically rising health care costs. The real question is, why are legislators with no experience with public health/health administration the ones who are writing up laws? Why not follow the close guidance and directions of experts? The answer is that politicians aren't concerned with what's good for public health, but what's good for reelection.

On August 12 2011 22:48 zalz wrote:
So basically your perceived notion of technocracy boils down to "same shit as we got right now, but remove elections".

Power that cannot be held accountable sounds like a good idea to you?


That's obviously not what I've said. As I argued in a previous post, technocracy and democracy is not a binary choice. You can make a government more technocratic in some respects. Nowhere have I argued that you should remove elections.

Rather, the main thing I am advocating is for technocrats to be given political power within their narrow fields of expertise.
Hermasaurus
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
54 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 14:01:12
August 12 2011 13:59 GMT
#137
And guess what, you've wandered into our school of tuna and we now have a taste of lion. We've talked to ourselves. We've communicated and said 'You know what, lion tastes good, let's go get some more lion'
Hermasaurus
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
54 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 14:01:40
August 12 2011 14:00 GMT
#138
On August 12 2011 22:51 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 22:44 paradox_ wrote:
Scientists and engineers aren't infallible or some how have more integrity than the average politician. Power corrupts and anyone in Academia will know they have their own politics in there. You give them power and it'll just turn into another shit show of disagreement that's a little more technically wordy.

There have been enough cases or research being stolen, papers being rejected by journals because the person on the board is doing the same research etc. Scientists are human, they're just specialized in a specific field of knowledge.


Scientists and engineers aren't the equivalent of politicians in a technocracy. Rather, scientists and engineers are the equivalent of citizens, while leaders of the scientific community are equivalent to politicians. The idea is that citizens should not get to vote or elect representatives to vote on issues on which they have no knowledge or expertise.

Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 22:44 paradox_ wrote:
Experts in science will disagree just as much as non-experts.


False. Experts in science have a shared knoweldge base generally accept many foundational ideas even if they disagree on details. For example, most people seem to have a very wrong idea that there is disagreement about evolution, when scientists overwhelmingly accept evolution as fact and disagree only on details.

To use a Starcraft analogy, professional Starcraft players agree on a lot more elements of strategy than noobs do, even if they have intense disagreements with each other over the details.



You seem to believe that Scientists and other experts of transcended past human emotion onto a platform of sheer objectivity. Which is wrong. The problem with any government is human emotion. No one is exempt from ego, envy, or greed. Being a scientist doesn't assert any higher level of morality than the next person. Which means everyone is capable of corruption, regardless of expertise.

But the thing is morality is subjective, and so on, and so forth. As well as corruption. Just the same as a civilizations success, or a persons. Success isn't objective. You can't suggest that technocracy is objectively better than any other form of politics.

The pros and cons of any policy varies through the eye of the beholder.
And guess what, you've wandered into our school of tuna and we now have a taste of lion. We've talked to ourselves. We've communicated and said 'You know what, lion tastes good, let's go get some more lion'
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
August 12 2011 14:00 GMT
#139
On August 12 2011 22:52 Probe1 wrote:
A technocracy has the same failing as communism or even Monarchies in all their related forms. On paper it sounds GREAT. In reality they become hopelessly corrupt in a very short time. Cool idea, doesn't work.


Every system, American federal republicanism included, is hopelessly corrupt and worse in practice than on paper. The question is, can we improve on what we have now?
Traeon
Profile Joined July 2010
Austria366 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 14:10:57
August 12 2011 14:05 GMT
#140
The more I read from the pro-technocracy people, the more I'm skeptical. The idea comes across as extremely authoritarian and is sold under the guise of a presumed intellectual superiority of the experts.

That doesn't mean I think it couldn't work, that's just what I gather from the way people write about it.

By the way, I'm not even sure I'd agree that an engineer who knows how to design a bridge would be equally suited to handle the building of bridges in a country. They're totally different jobs.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
August 12 2011 14:06 GMT
#141
On August 12 2011 23:00 Hermasaurus wrote:
You seem to believe that Scientists and other experts of transcended past human emotion onto a platform of sheer objectivity. Which is wrong. The problem with any government is human emotion. No one is exempt from ego, envy, or greed. Being a scientist doesn't assert any higher level of morality than the next person. Which means everyone is capable of corruption, regardless of expertise.


You keep saying that. Let me make this clear for a simpleton like you:

Scientists are not perfectly objective. They are, however, more objective than the average person.

On August 12 2011 23:00 Hermasaurus wrote:
But the thing is morality is subjective, and so on, and so forth. As well as corruption. Just the same as a civilizations success, or a persons. Success isn't objective. You can't suggest that technocracy is objectively better than any other form of politics.

The pros and cons of any policy varies through the eye of the beholder.


That's an idiot's way of looking at it. If everything is subjective, then who cares what we do? Raising GDP, lowering crime, reducing war; all of those things are only subjectively good things right? Some people might think that humans deserve to suffer, therefore, your policies aren't right for everyone! *facepalm*


There are some goals that are overwhelmingly agreed upon as desirable for a nation. Some policies achieve them better than others with fewer drawbacks. These are objectively better policies, and a technocracy is better at achieving them, at the cost of reduced freedom.
Equity213
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada873 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 14:10:47
August 12 2011 14:08 GMT
#142
Im not a fan of any system where people plan my life for me or tell me what to do. Its is impractical as no human or organization is smart enough to plan a society, and it is immoral as it violates individual rights.

Democracy sucks, but I fear a technocracy would be worse.

This aint star trek, people are greedy and corrupt and any system that centralizes power and decision making will attract the most greedy and corrupt humans to the top. Hasnt history shown us that?
Hermasaurus
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
54 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 14:09:04
August 12 2011 14:08 GMT
#143
On August 12 2011 23:06 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 23:00 Hermasaurus wrote:
You seem to believe that Scientists and other experts of transcended past human emotion onto a platform of sheer objectivity. Which is wrong. The problem with any government is human emotion. No one is exempt from ego, envy, or greed. Being a scientist doesn't assert any higher level of morality than the next person. Which means everyone is capable of corruption, regardless of expertise.


You keep saying that. Let me make this clear for a simpleton like you:

Scientists are not perfectly objective. They are, however, more objective than the average person.

Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 23:00 Hermasaurus wrote:
But the thing is morality is subjective, and so on, and so forth. As well as corruption. Just the same as a civilizations success, or a persons. Success isn't objective. You can't suggest that technocracy is objectively better than any other form of politics.

The pros and cons of any policy varies through the eye of the beholder.


That's an idiot's way of looking at it. If everything is subjective, then who cares what we do? Raising GDP, lowering crime, reducing war; all of those things are only subjectively good things right? Some people might think that humans deserve to suffer, therefore, your policies aren't right for everyone! *facepalm*


There are some goals that are overwhelmingly agreed upon as desirable for a nation. Some policies achieve them better than others with fewer drawbacks. These are objectively better policies, and a technocracy is better at achieving them, at the cost of reduced freedom.


Please tell me where I said that before? Also please reference where scientists are more objective in comparison to normal politicians when it comes to making POLITICAL decisions? I would assume you don't have any data. I would also assume you don't have any data of ANYTHING, because your whole argument is speculation, and YOUR opinion.
And guess what, you've wandered into our school of tuna and we now have a taste of lion. We've talked to ourselves. We've communicated and said 'You know what, lion tastes good, let's go get some more lion'
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
August 12 2011 14:09 GMT
#144
On August 12 2011 23:05 Traeon wrote:
The more I read from the pro-technocracy people, the more I'm skeptical. The idea comes across as extremely authoritarian and is sold under the guise of a presumed intellectual superiority of the experts.


I call rhetorical BS. You've been vehemently against it from your first post in the thread due to your anti-intellectual attitudes and failure to understand either technocracy or science.
zalz
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Netherlands3704 Posts
August 12 2011 14:13 GMT
#145
On August 12 2011 22:59 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 22:48 zalz wrote:
Well the problem with your version of a technocracy is that it's more commonly known as a dictatorship.

All you suggest be done is that politicians are removed and with it, democratic election, and then you suggest we go on about our business as usual.


Please review my posts to learn why you are mistaken.

Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 22:48 zalz wrote:
Who do you think are running hospitals right now? Those very same people with PhD's in public health and administration. Who judges over brain surgery cases? Brain surgeons.

Who judges over the grand scheme of things? Politics on a national level? Politicians. Except you want to remove elections...


When considering technocracy vs. democracy, we're obviously considering things from a public policy standpoint, not who runs hospitals or performs brain surgery. In other words, who makes laws that hospitals and brain surgeons have to follow.

If we did have a more technocratic government, then the health care reform debate would primarily be driven by expert knowledge on how to bring down health care costs. Rather than health care reform that would be the consensus of public health professionals, we instead got a bill that primarily served political interests and did little to curtail dramatically rising health care costs. The real question is, why are legislators with no experience with public health/health administration the ones who are writing up laws? Why not follow the close guidance and directions of experts? The answer is that politicians aren't concerned with what's good for public health, but what's good for reelection.

Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 22:48 zalz wrote:
So basically your perceived notion of technocracy boils down to "same shit as we got right now, but remove elections".

Power that cannot be held accountable sounds like a good idea to you?


That's obviously not what I've said. As I argued in a previous post, technocracy and democracy is not a binary choice. You can make a government more technocratic in some respects. Nowhere have I argued that you should remove elections.

Rather, the main thing I am advocating is for technocrats to be given political power within their narrow fields of expertise.


Yes, so the most accredited of economists who all hold degrees and well paying jobs are going to look over the tax reform whilst knowing in the back of their head that they can't be held accountable for anything they do.


This idea does away with democracy and more importantly, they self purifying ability that the democratic system has. These people would be in no way accountable for their choices and the political system could in no way purge the corruption from it's ranks.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 14:20:21
August 12 2011 14:16 GMT
#146
On August 12 2011 23:08 Hermasaurus wrote:
Please tell me where I said that before?


You argued that success is objective, which is an obvious pointless line of reasoning, even if not flat-out incorrect.

On August 12 2011 23:08 Hermasaurus wrote:
Also please reference where scientists are more objective in comparison to normal politicians when it comes to making POLITICAL decisions? I would assume you don't have any data. I would also assume you don't have any data of ANYTHING, because your whole argument is speculation, and YOUR opinion.


I actually have plenty of data, seeing as I studied public policy intensively for several years. Please reference any and all political science articles on political decision-making and technological expertise from the last 50 years. Good places to start are John Ferejohn's Pork Barrel Politics, John W. Kingdon's Agendas, Alternatives, and Public Policies, John M. Ziman's The Force of Knowledge, Cass R. Sunstein's Risk and Reason, and James Q. Wilson's Bureaucracy.

Doing so might help you to understand why in our government, bureaucrats and experts are basically constrained from being efficient by political forces.
Ksquared
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1748 Posts
August 12 2011 14:18 GMT
#147
When I read the title I thought it was going to talk about robots controlling government lol
eSports for life.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 14:26:38
August 12 2011 14:23 GMT
#148
On August 12 2011 23:13 zalz wrote:
Yes, so the most accredited of economists who all hold degrees and well paying jobs are going to look over the tax reform whilst knowing in the back of their head that they can't be held accountable for anything they do.


You are aware that in spite of this, most economists have called for the United States to raise taxes, right? And that majority of prominent economists opposed the Bush tax cuts that would have benefitted them? Again, this should suggest that experts are less interested in their own rational benefit and more in choosing the right policy.

On August 12 2011 23:13 zalz wrote:
This idea does away with democracy and more importantly, they self purifying ability that the democratic system has. These people would be in no way accountable for their choices and the political system could in no way purge the corruption from it's ranks.


Who said anything about no accountability? You're making assumptions about this theoretical technocracy. Why wouldn't technocrats answer to their own scientific communities? Why wouldn't they be subject to legal challenges?
Equity213
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada873 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 14:25:21
August 12 2011 14:24 GMT
#149
On August 12 2011 23:13 zalz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 22:59 sunprince wrote:
On August 12 2011 22:48 zalz wrote:
Well the problem with your version of a technocracy is that it's more commonly known as a dictatorship.

All you suggest be done is that politicians are removed and with it, democratic election, and then you suggest we go on about our business as usual.


Please review my posts to learn why you are mistaken.

On August 12 2011 22:48 zalz wrote:
Who do you think are running hospitals right now? Those very same people with PhD's in public health and administration. Who judges over brain surgery cases? Brain surgeons.

Who judges over the grand scheme of things? Politics on a national level? Politicians. Except you want to remove elections...


When considering technocracy vs. democracy, we're obviously considering things from a public policy standpoint, not who runs hospitals or performs brain surgery. In other words, who makes laws that hospitals and brain surgeons have to follow.

If we did have a more technocratic government, then the health care reform debate would primarily be driven by expert knowledge on how to bring down health care costs. Rather than health care reform that would be the consensus of public health professionals, we instead got a bill that primarily served political interests and did little to curtail dramatically rising health care costs. The real question is, why are legislators with no experience with public health/health administration the ones who are writing up laws? Why not follow the close guidance and directions of experts? The answer is that politicians aren't concerned with what's good for public health, but what's good for reelection.

On August 12 2011 22:48 zalz wrote:
So basically your perceived notion of technocracy boils down to "same shit as we got right now, but remove elections".

Power that cannot be held accountable sounds like a good idea to you?


That's obviously not what I've said. As I argued in a previous post, technocracy and democracy is not a binary choice. You can make a government more technocratic in some respects. Nowhere have I argued that you should remove elections.

Rather, the main thing I am advocating is for technocrats to be given political power within their narrow fields of expertise.



This idea does away with democracy and more importantly, they self purifying ability that the democratic system has. These people would be in no way accountable for their choices and the political system could in no way purge the corruption from it's ranks.


You seem to be implying that democracys purge corruption. Perhaps things are better in the Netherlands but in North America our elected officials break the law constantly, and there is NO recourse. A politician only goes down when the media wants them to and broadcasts their indescretions to the world.

I agree with your criticisms of technocracy however I think you have a rosy eyed view of democracy. Being able to choose which fascist gets to run my life every four years is hardly the best system concievable.
Kimaker
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States2131 Posts
August 12 2011 14:25 GMT
#150
As a counter argument, I propose a Democracy wherein only citizens of a predetermined IQ are allowed to vote. xD

Seriously, I've met so many "hard science people" who I'd never want running anything that it's flooring. Specific professional segments of the populace shouldn't control things. If you have something you're grasping for it sounds like Aristotle's philosopher kings. Unfortunately they don't exist.

Entusman #54 (-_-) ||"Gold is for the Mistress-Silver for the Maid-Copper for the craftsman cunning in his trade. "Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall, But Iron — Cold Iron — is master of them all|| "Optimism is Cowardice."- Oswald Spengler
zalz
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Netherlands3704 Posts
August 12 2011 14:28 GMT
#151
On August 12 2011 23:24 Equity213 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 23:13 zalz wrote:
On August 12 2011 22:59 sunprince wrote:
On August 12 2011 22:48 zalz wrote:
Well the problem with your version of a technocracy is that it's more commonly known as a dictatorship.

All you suggest be done is that politicians are removed and with it, democratic election, and then you suggest we go on about our business as usual.


Please review my posts to learn why you are mistaken.

On August 12 2011 22:48 zalz wrote:
Who do you think are running hospitals right now? Those very same people with PhD's in public health and administration. Who judges over brain surgery cases? Brain surgeons.

Who judges over the grand scheme of things? Politics on a national level? Politicians. Except you want to remove elections...


When considering technocracy vs. democracy, we're obviously considering things from a public policy standpoint, not who runs hospitals or performs brain surgery. In other words, who makes laws that hospitals and brain surgeons have to follow.

If we did have a more technocratic government, then the health care reform debate would primarily be driven by expert knowledge on how to bring down health care costs. Rather than health care reform that would be the consensus of public health professionals, we instead got a bill that primarily served political interests and did little to curtail dramatically rising health care costs. The real question is, why are legislators with no experience with public health/health administration the ones who are writing up laws? Why not follow the close guidance and directions of experts? The answer is that politicians aren't concerned with what's good for public health, but what's good for reelection.

On August 12 2011 22:48 zalz wrote:
So basically your perceived notion of technocracy boils down to "same shit as we got right now, but remove elections".

Power that cannot be held accountable sounds like a good idea to you?


That's obviously not what I've said. As I argued in a previous post, technocracy and democracy is not a binary choice. You can make a government more technocratic in some respects. Nowhere have I argued that you should remove elections.

Rather, the main thing I am advocating is for technocrats to be given political power within their narrow fields of expertise.



This idea does away with democracy and more importantly, they self purifying ability that the democratic system has. These people would be in no way accountable for their choices and the political system could in no way purge the corruption from it's ranks.


You seem to be implying that democracys purge corruption. Perhaps things are better in the Netherlands but in North America our elected officials break the law constantly, and there is NO recourse. A politician only goes down when the media wants them to and broadcasts their indescretions to the world.

I agree with your criticisms of technocracy however I think you have a rosy eyed view of democracy. Being able to choose which fascist gets to run my life every four years is hardly the best system concievable.


How can i argue with this? Your simplified "Media rules the world" position isn't based on any realism.

I can tell you that your perception of reality is warped but what good would that do?
Hermasaurus
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
54 Posts
August 12 2011 14:30 GMT
#152
On August 12 2011 23:16 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 23:08 Hermasaurus wrote:
Please tell me where I said that before?


You argued that success is objective, which is an obvious pointless line of reasoning, even if not flat-out incorrect.

Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 23:08 Hermasaurus wrote:
Also please reference where scientists are more objective in comparison to normal politicians when it comes to making POLITICAL decisions? I would assume you don't have any data. I would also assume you don't have any data of ANYTHING, because your whole argument is speculation, and YOUR opinion.


I actually have plenty of data, seeing as I studied public policy intensively for several years. Please reference any and all political science articles on political decision-making and technological expertise from the last 50 years. Good places to start are John Ferejohn's Pork Barrel Politics, John W. Kingdon's Agendas, Alternatives, and Public Policies, John M. Ziman's The Force of Knowledge, Cass R. Sunstein's Risk and Reason, and James Q. Wilson's Bureaucracy.

Doing so might help you to understand why in our government, bureaucrats and experts are basically constrained from being efficient by political forces.

You lack the ability to see from a different perspective. Instead of a technocracy, why don't you look into dictatorship.
And guess what, you've wandered into our school of tuna and we now have a taste of lion. We've talked to ourselves. We've communicated and said 'You know what, lion tastes good, let's go get some more lion'
Yuriegh
Profile Joined July 2010
United States327 Posts
August 12 2011 14:30 GMT
#153
On August 12 2011 16:49 AustinCM wrote:
Do you think that a Technocracy could work anywhere in the world?

What is a Technocracy you ask?

A Technocracy is a form of government in which engineers, scientists, health professionals, and other technical experts are in control of decision making in their respective fields.

So do you think that it would be able to accelerate scientific discovery and advancement and how do you think it would affect the economy of the given country?\

I for one feel that this is exactly what we need and will end the OP with a quote from Winston Churchill.

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

Shit, wrong forum, please move to the General forum...


Yes lets give control to the "experts" and democracy is pretty bad as well I guess that's that's why I live in a republic.
I got shot through a place not long ago I thought I knew the place so well
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
August 12 2011 14:30 GMT
#154
On August 12 2011 23:25 Kimaker wrote:
As a counter argument, I propose a Democracy wherein only citizens of a predetermined IQ are allowed to vote. xD


I'm partly amenable to that, but even smart people have a tendency to stick their noses in areas they know nothing about and then vote on them.

On August 12 2011 23:25 Kimaker wrote:
Seriously, I've met so many "hard science people" who I'd never want running anything that it's flooring. Specific professional segments of the populace shouldn't control things. If you have something you're grasping for it sounds like Aristotle's philosopher kings. Unfortunately they don't exist.


Philosopher kings wouldn't be my goal. Ideally, I'd want a democracy where people only vote on issues they are knoweldgeable about. Even better if it means everyone is very well-educated and can thus vote on a lot of things.

What we have in reality, though, is an idiocracy where people love to vote despite their ignorance and short-sighted self-interest.
meegrean
Profile Joined May 2008
Thailand7699 Posts
August 12 2011 14:31 GMT
#155
I don't think technocrats are going to make many decisions that would benefit the poor... Also, combining technocracy with democracy is just going to be one hell of a headache.
Brood War loyalist
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
August 12 2011 14:32 GMT
#156
On August 12 2011 23:30 Hermasaurus wrote:
You lack the ability to see from a different perspective. Instead of a technocracy, why don't you look into dictatorship.


You have no idea what you're talking about, so instead you try to attack me by equating technocracy with dictatorship. GTFO of the thread, troll.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42603 Posts
August 12 2011 14:33 GMT
#157
Part of the ongoing problem with drug legislation is that politicians refuse to listen to the scientists and doctors who actually know the medical risks of taking drugs.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 14:35:55
August 12 2011 14:34 GMT
#158
On August 12 2011 23:31 meegrean wrote:
I don't think technocrats are going to make many decisions that would benefit the poor...


You do realize that every major reform movement which benefits the poor is backed by academics?

On August 12 2011 23:31 meegrean wrote:
Also, combining technocracy with democracy is just going to be one hell of a headache.


We already have it to some degree in America. It's just really weak technocracy, because our technocrats have very limited power, and politicians can just ignore or override them.
haduken
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Australia8267 Posts
August 12 2011 14:36 GMT
#159
The closest example of technocracy in a country would be the current leadership in China.

Almost everyone of them have an engineering degree -_- and look how they turned out.

The major problems are:

A) The lure of power. It wouldn't stop anyone that wants to have that power to study in science instead of say law if science degree is more valued. Politicians like it or not probably excelled in their school years to get that far and don't call politicians dumb, they might make dumb decisions but it's unlikely that they are not intelligent.

B) The lack of empathy. Scientists care little about your average citizens. Sometimes the populace do things that are against logic. Public mood can swing one way or another and a scientist is not equipped to deal with that unless he has prior experiences in political science which will end up like the system we have now. Scientists would have less patient for people's opinions when he consider himself smarter than them and a scientist is just as likely as the next person to be influenced by interest groups.

C) Lawyers and business people while do not make the best decisions all the time (or at all) is the closest we can get to get a group that is some what equipped with running a nation. Likely it or not, that is what we have now.

D) We need good administrators and great decision makers which are things that no degree or knowledge can teach you. We need someone who is powerful and resourceful enough to muster support to implement what ever the nation needs.

E) I do think that there should be a functional and political separation in positions. Say for I.T ministers, there should be one person elected by his peers and one that is appointed by the political bloc, there should be a vote called on all major decisions in the actual research / industry that the decision will effect but this is not almost possible due to budget and time.

People should understand that politics is not always about doing the best thing. It often comes down to compromises (for interest groups) and budget.
Rillanon.au
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
August 12 2011 14:44 GMT
#160
On August 12 2011 22:44 Sablar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 22:23 sunprince wrote:
On August 12 2011 22:16 Sablar wrote:
I think many people seem regard scientists like some sort of rational, methodical robot that will carefully weigh the evidence and decide what is right.


I don't think anyone has suggested this. Rather, they are beter than average people at rational, methodical thought, but obviously not perfect.

On August 12 2011 22:16 Sablar wrote:
Scientists agree about nothing and there are always different camps within diciplines much like political parties.


False. Scientists agree about a great many things. When they do disagree, then that's something you don't have enough knowledge to act on anyway.

On August 12 2011 22:16 Sablar wrote:
Sociology and stuff regarding the whole society can't really be measured though, and there would never be a consensus or even close to it regarding what was right. This goes for economics, psychology etc as well.


False. Look up a sociology or economics journal sometime. Both fields are rooted in empirical science. I can't speak for psychology personally, but I would assume the same is true of it as well. And again, there is plenty of consensus in every field. Just about everything studied up to the undergraduate level is scientific consensus. It's enough to fill vast libraries and most of Wikipedia.

You seem to be working off of popular stereotypes about science, without any idea of how it actually works.

On August 12 2011 22:16 Sablar wrote:
Making sure to consult those who have knowledge in fields relevant to decisions is of course important, but that's how it's done today.


Yes, but then the politicians ignore or override those experts, which is how we get a lot of problems.


Look at pretty much any field of science and people will be disaegreeing. From the existence of some theorized physical matter to the motivations of humans or the most important reasons behind unempoyment. There are contradicting results and camps with different ideas and discussions that pretty much never get settled. There isn't a consensus, instead text books are filled the "the x perspective" as opposed to "the y perspective".

Something being "rooted in empircal sciences" doesn't mean that is somehow objective or that there is a right answer. It's far too complicated to know about all the factors in society in order to make accurate preductions about economics or about how crime will be effected by different changes in society. You just can't control such variables and because of that science can't give any clear answers. At best there is good line of reasoning behind whatever prediction is made. In the end that line of reasoning may or may not be better than that of an elected politicians, but that alone doesn't make it a better system. Also sociology is more qualitative than quantitative overall.

So don't say things are false when they aren't, and don't question my character because I was the only one who admitted to using generalizations about scientists.

They are disagreeing about some things and agreeing about others. Those things that are not agreed upon are considered as of yet unknown or not precise. 100 years ago there was disagreement about general hereditary mechanisms in biology, not anymore, now the disagreements are about small details of those mechanisms. Social sciences are the ones with all the "perspectives", but even those are getting better. And being rooted in empirical science actually means exactly that it is objective.

The point is not what might be. The point is that the expert has higher probability of making a right call and that is it. Also there is no necessity to eliminate democratic procedures in general, I think a hybrid system would be better. Basically people would vote on the matters of general policy as in those cases the science often has nothing definitive to say. For example people would vote on the level of social services they want and similar stuff and than technocrats would implement the details to the best of their knowledge. Also you can add even some democratic control over the technocrats, but it has to be well thought through so they do not become today's polititians.
meegrean
Profile Joined May 2008
Thailand7699 Posts
August 12 2011 14:44 GMT
#161
On August 12 2011 23:34 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 23:31 meegrean wrote:
I don't think technocrats are going to make many decisions that would benefit the poor...


You do realize that every major reform movement which benefits the poor is backed by academics?

Why would technocrats care much about the poor when they could spend more resources on research and technological advancement?
Brood War loyalist
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
August 12 2011 14:45 GMT
#162
On August 12 2011 23:36 haduken wrote:
The closest example of technocracy in a country would be the current leadership in China.

Almost everyone of them have an engineering degree -_- and look how they turned out.


You do realize that most of China's problems are not caused by the current leadership in China but were already there? And just how far China has come since this technocracy came to power?

On August 12 2011 23:36 haduken wrote:
A) The lure of power. It wouldn't stop anyone that wants to have that power to study in science instead of say law if science degree is more valued. Politicians like it or not probably excelled in their school years to get that far and don't call politicians dumb, they might make dumb decisions but it's unlikely that they are not intelligent.


In a technocracy, a science degree may get you power, but it's within a very narrowly defined scope and requires signicant time and energy investment to achieve. It's much worse in a democracy, where a politician can simply go to law school (which is easier than getting a doctorate). So the lure of power is probably dampened if anything.

On August 12 2011 23:36 haduken wrote:
B) The lack of empathy. Scientists care little about your average citizens. Sometimes the populace do things that are against logic. Public mood can swing one way or another and a scientist is not equipped to deal with that unless he has prior experiences in political science which will end up like the system we have now. Scientists would have less patient for people's opinions when he consider himself smarter than them and a scientist is just as likely as the next person to be influenced by interest groups.


Lawyers also care little about your average citizens, beyond how those citizens might vote, and are more easily influenced by interest groups, since they don't have deeply held factual beliefs on many of the areas they vote on, unlike a technocrat.

On August 12 2011 23:36 haduken wrote:
C) Lawyers and business people while do not make the best decisions all the time (or at all) is the closest we can get to get a group that is some what equipped with running a nation. Likely it or not, that is what we have now.


By all indications, China shows us that lawyers and businessmen are good at it in a general sense, but not the only ones who are capable, especially not in areas of technical expertise.

On August 12 2011 23:36 haduken wrote:
D) We need good administrators and great decision makers which are things that no degree or knowledge can teach you. We need someone who is powerful and resourceful enough to muster support to implement what ever the nation needs.


We do. But they should also be required to listen to their expert advisors to some degree.
Traeon
Profile Joined July 2010
Austria366 Posts
August 12 2011 14:48 GMT
#163
On August 12 2011 23:09 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 23:05 Traeon wrote:
The more I read from the pro-technocracy people, the more I'm skeptical. The idea comes across as extremely authoritarian and is sold under the guise of a presumed intellectual superiority of the experts.


I call rhetorical BS. You've been vehemently against it from your first post in the thread due to your anti-intellectual attitudes and failure to understand either technocracy or science.


You're only further illustrating my point.
OpticalShot
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Canada6330 Posts
August 12 2011 14:48 GMT
#164
I'm an engineer and I like the premises of a technocratic government, but I'm still skeptical regarding its viability in the near future. Scientists, economists, engineers, and whatever other specialists out there are fellow human beings, and once put into position of power and authority, are going to be a "politician" regardless of their professional field. How are the seats / power going to be distributed among the professions? How can the budget be balanced to serve all areas of interest, when the representatives are going to be pushing their respective fields with little or no regard to other fields?

Yes, I'd like to believe that the technocrats are going to be more educated than the Average Joe. It's no secret that it takes talent, skill, dedication, and effort to reach the forefronts of the various professions. However, moral education, human(/resource) management, ethics, and other "soft-skills" are not an integral part of the technical fields (especially post-undergrad where you pretty much only deal with your exclusive field of study). One may say, the directors and CEOs of large corporations and firms have proven their worth in both areas of technical and soft skill. Even if that's the case, wouldn't that bring corporate interests into politics? Elect the prolific professor who hasn't dealt with people outside his own research lab or the CEO of an international mega-firm?

My preference would be that scientific/technical expertise be introduced to the government in increments. We should continue incorporating more "soft" elements into sciences/engineering curriculum at higher levels of education. More people in the technical fields should take steps into political careers while cutting ties with the private corporate interests. Instead of being sidelined as consultants and advisers, I sincerely hope that the future holds technical experts in the forefront of challenges as government leaders.
[TLMS] REBOOT
Saji
Profile Joined December 2010
Netherlands262 Posts
August 12 2011 14:49 GMT
#165
Will this system Technocracy (same goes for democracy which have obviously failed) bring about peace? i.e. a life without conflict?

Because if it doesn't what use does it truly have, it will just be the same idea with a different sauce (different kind of people ruling over other people).

Can anyone answers this question?
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
August 12 2011 14:49 GMT
#166
On August 12 2011 23:00 Hermasaurus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 22:51 sunprince wrote:
On August 12 2011 22:44 paradox_ wrote:
Scientists and engineers aren't infallible or some how have more integrity than the average politician. Power corrupts and anyone in Academia will know they have their own politics in there. You give them power and it'll just turn into another shit show of disagreement that's a little more technically wordy.

There have been enough cases or research being stolen, papers being rejected by journals because the person on the board is doing the same research etc. Scientists are human, they're just specialized in a specific field of knowledge.


Scientists and engineers aren't the equivalent of politicians in a technocracy. Rather, scientists and engineers are the equivalent of citizens, while leaders of the scientific community are equivalent to politicians. The idea is that citizens should not get to vote or elect representatives to vote on issues on which they have no knowledge or expertise.

On August 12 2011 22:44 paradox_ wrote:
Experts in science will disagree just as much as non-experts.


False. Experts in science have a shared knoweldge base generally accept many foundational ideas even if they disagree on details. For example, most people seem to have a very wrong idea that there is disagreement about evolution, when scientists overwhelmingly accept evolution as fact and disagree only on details.

To use a Starcraft analogy, professional Starcraft players agree on a lot more elements of strategy than noobs do, even if they have intense disagreements with each other over the details.



You seem to believe that Scientists and other experts of transcended past human emotion onto a platform of sheer objectivity. Which is wrong. The problem with any government is human emotion. No one is exempt from ego, envy, or greed. Being a scientist doesn't assert any higher level of morality than the next person. Which means everyone is capable of corruption, regardless of expertise.

But the thing is morality is subjective, and so on, and so forth. As well as corruption. Just the same as a civilizations success, or a persons. Success isn't objective. You can't suggest that technocracy is objectively better than any other form of politics.

The pros and cons of any policy varies through the eye of the beholder.

Actually to say that something is objectively better than something else you just need objective(measurable) criteria. You can argue about validity/applicability of the criteria, but not about objectivity in that case.

Also morality is pretty objective.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 14:52:40
August 12 2011 14:51 GMT
#167
On August 12 2011 23:44 meegrean wrote:
Why would technocrats care much about the poor when they could spend more resources on research and technological advancement?


*sigh* Despite how the name sounds, 'technocrat' does not mean 'technology-oriented'. It means that experts are in charge of their respective fields.

Economics, sociology, urban development, education, philosophy, ethics, etc. are all fields of knowledge with experts that care about things like social inequality.

In fact, the only reason you even know about things like the growing wealth gap is because of those experts. They're also the only ones presenting solutions.

On August 12 2011 23:48 Traeon wrote:
You're only further illustrating my point.


Go away. It's clear you don't have any actual logical arguments or actual relevant information to this thread besides your unsubstantiated opinion.
Malmis
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
Sweden1569 Posts
August 12 2011 14:51 GMT
#168
Sunprince

I think one problem is that the knowledge of experts in their respective fields are usually irrelevant at the policy level. To take medicine for example: A doctor might be the most knowledgeable person in the world regarding some specific treatment but would this knowledge give him any relevant insights into how medical care is to be supplied?
To Suport@Bethsoft.com: okay so i completed morrowind.. um, can i have my life back now?
Roe
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada6002 Posts
August 12 2011 14:51 GMT
#169
On August 12 2011 23:36 haduken wrote:
The closest example of technocracy in a country would be the current leadership in China.

Almost everyone of them have an engineering degree -_- and look how they turned out.

The major problems are:

A) The lure of power. It wouldn't stop anyone that wants to have that power to study in science instead of say law if science degree is more valued. Politicians like it or not probably excelled in their school years to get that far and don't call politicians dumb, they might make dumb decisions but it's unlikely that they are not intelligent.

B) The lack of empathy. Scientists care little about your average citizens. Sometimes the populace do things that are against logic. Public mood can swing one way or another and a scientist is not equipped to deal with that unless he has prior experiences in political science which will end up like the system we have now. Scientists would have less patient for people's opinions when he consider himself smarter than them and a scientist is just as likely as the next person to be influenced by interest groups.

C) Lawyers and business people while do not make the best decisions all the time (or at all) is the closest we can get to get a group that is some what equipped with running a nation. Likely it or not, that is what we have now.

D) We need good administrators and great decision makers which are things that no degree or knowledge can teach you. We need someone who is powerful and resourceful enough to muster support to implement what ever the nation needs.

E) I do think that there should be a functional and political separation in positions. Say for I.T ministers, there should be one person elected by his peers and one that is appointed by the political bloc, there should be a vote called on all major decisions in the actual research / industry that the decision will effect but this is not almost possible due to budget and time.

People should understand that politics is not always about doing the best thing. It often comes down to compromises (for interest groups) and budget.


This is a good example of someone who doesn't understand science. All scientists have a lack of empathy? Care less about people? Less patience? Come on...You're close to talking about psychopaths. You can hear a lot from outspoken scientists about how science is about advancing the human species, not restraining it to "cold" logic.

"A scientist is just as likely as the next to be influenced by interest groups" Well, ok. But then why would you want someone who doesn't use science, someone who uses rhetoric and populism and fear mongering, to be in control and make decisions?

C) Good point, they don't make the best decisions, except where's your reasoning? Lawyers and business people make decisions based on who pays them. That's why the US is in the mess it is now. Scientists would make decisions based on science.

D) So someone can't be taught decision making, or administration? No knowledge at all can teach you anything about that? Right..So it's just an inborn trait? Then why pick some group of lawyers, when scientists would produce the same result?
Your last sentence is besides this discussion, the point of the technocracy would be to do what's best, and not due to special interest groups(racist, religious, corporatist, etc)
Roe
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada6002 Posts
August 12 2011 14:52 GMT
#170
On August 12 2011 23:44 meegrean wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 23:34 sunprince wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:31 meegrean wrote:
I don't think technocrats are going to make many decisions that would benefit the poor...


You do realize that every major reform movement which benefits the poor is backed by academics?

Why would technocrats care much about the poor when they could spend more resources on research and technological advancement?

Why would anyone care about the poor?
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 14:58:51
August 12 2011 14:56 GMT
#171
On August 12 2011 23:51 Malmis wrote:
I think one problem is that the knowledge of experts in their respective fields are usually irrelevant at the policy level. To take medicine for example: A doctor might be the most knowledgeable person in the world regarding some specific treatment but would this knowledge give him any relevant insights into how medical care is to be supplied?


This is actually due to confusion about the field of expertise in question.

You're right that a doctor would not be the most knowledgeable in how medical care is supplied. But we also have professionals in the fields of public health and health administration. Those would be the relevant experts here, not the doctors.

In a more technocratic government, we would listen to public health and health administration experts when we enact something such as health care reform. In our system, Congress mostly ignored them and instead did what was politically expedient a couple years ago.
agitprop
Profile Joined April 2011
United States37 Posts
August 12 2011 14:56 GMT
#172
On August 12 2011 22:39 mcc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 20:50 Jibba wrote:
I've already bit off more than I want to chew today in the Bear thread and a few more places, so I'll just say 'no', and then leave you with this essay by George Orwell.

+ Show Spoiler +
George Orwell

What is Science?

In last week's Tribune, there was an interesting letter from Mr. J. Stewart Cook, in which he suggested that the best way of avoiding the danger of a ‘scientific hierarchy’ would be to see to it that every member of the general public was, as far as possible, scientifically educated. At the same time, scientists should be brought out of their isolation and encouraged to take a greater part in politics and administration.

As a general statement, I think most of us would agree with this, but I notice that, as usual, Mr. Cook does not define science, and merely implies in passing that it means certain exact sciences whose experiments can be made under laboratory conditions. Thus, adult education tends ‘to neglect scientific studies in favour of literary, economic and social subjects’, economics and sociology not being regarded as branches of science. Apparently. This point is of great importance. For the word science is at present used in at least two meanings, and the whole question of scientific education is obscured by the current tendency to dodge from one meaning to the other.

Science is generally taken as meaning either (a) the exact sciences, such as chemistry, physics, etc., or (b) a method of thought which obtains verifiable results by reasoning logically from observed fact.
If you ask any scientist, or indeed almost any educated person, ‘What is science?’ you are likely to get an answer approximating to (b). In everyday life, however, both in speaking and in writing, when people say ‘science’ they mean (a). Science means something that happens in a laboratory: the very word calls up a picture of graphs, test-tubes, balances, Bunsen burners, microscopes. A biologist, and astronomer, perhaps a psychologist or a mathematician is described as a ‘man of science’: no one would think of applying this term to a statesman, a poet, a journalist or even a philosopher. And those who tell us that the young must be scientifically educated mean, almost invariably, that they should be taught more about radioactivity, or the stars, or the physiology or their own bodies, rather than that they should be taught to think more exactly.

This confusion of meaning, which is partly deliberate, has in it a great danger. Implied in the demand for more scientific education is the claim that if one has been scientifically trained one's approach to all subjects will be more intelligent than if one had had no such training. A scientist's political opinions, it is assumed, his opinions on sociological questions, on morals, on philosophy, perhaps even on the arts, will be more valuable than those of a layman. The world, in other words, would be a better place if the scientists were in control of it. But a ‘scientist’, as we have just seen, means in practice a specialist in one of the exact sciences. It follows that a chemist or a physicist, as such, is politically more intelligent than a poet or a lawyer, as such. And, in fact, there are already millions of people who do believe this.

But is it really true that a ‘scientist’, in this narrower sense, is any likelier than other people to approach non-scientific problems in an objective way? There is not much reason for thinking so. Take one simple test — the ability to withstand nationalism. It is often loosely said that ‘Science is international’, but in practice the scientific workers of all countries line up behind their own governments with fewer scruples than are felt by the writers and the artists. The German scientific community, as a whole, made no resistance to Hitler. Hitler may have ruined the long-term prospects of German science, but there were still plenty of gifted men to do the necessary research on such things as synthetic oil, jet planes, rocket projectiles and the atomic bomb. Without them the German war machine could never have been built up.

On the other hand, what happened to German literature when the Nazis came to power? I believe no exhaustive lists have been published, but I imagine that the number of German scientists — Jews apart — who voluntarily exiled themselves or were persecuted by the règime was much smaller than the number of writers and journalists. More sinister than this, a number of German scientists swallowed the monstrosity of ‘racial science’. You can find some of the statements to which they set their names in Professor Brady's The Spirit and Structure of German Fascism.

But, in slightly different forms, it is the same picture everywhere. In England, a large proportion of our leading scientists accept the structure of capitalist society, as can be seen from the comparative freedom with which they are given knighthoods, baronetcies and even peerages. Since Tennyson, no English writer worth reading — one might, perhaps, make an exception of Sir Max Beerbohm — has been given a title. And those English scientists who do not simply accept the status quo are frequently Communists, which means that, however intellectually scrupulous they may be in their own line of work, they are ready to be uncritical and even dishonest on certain subjects. The fact is that a mere training in one or more of the exact sciences, even combined with very high gifts, is no guarantee of a humane or sceptical outlook. The physicists of half a dozen great nations, all feverishly and secretly working away at the atomic bomb, are a demonstration of this.
But does all this mean that the general public should not be more scientifically educated? On the contrary! All it means is that scientific education for the masses will do little good, and probably a lot of harm, if it simply boils down to more physics, more chemistry, more biology, etc., to the detriment of literature and history. Its probable effect on the average human being would be to narrow the range of his thoughts and make him more than ever contemptuous of such knowledge as he did not possess: and his political reactions would probably be somewhat less intelligent than those of an illiterate peasant who retained a few historical memories and a fairly sound aesthetic sense.

Clearly, scientific education ought to mean the implanting of a rational, sceptical, experimental habit of mind. It ought to mean acquiring a method — a method that can be used on any problem that one meets — and not simply piling up a lot of facts. Put it in those words, and the apologist of scientific education will usually agree. Press him further, ask him to particularize, and somehow it always turns out that scientific education means more attention to the sciences, in other words — more facts. The idea that science means a way of looking at the world, and not simply a body of knowledge, is in practice strongly resisted. I think sheer professional jealousy is part of the reason for this. For if science is simply a method or an attitude, so that anyone whose thought-processes are sufficiently rational can in some sense be described as a scientist — what then becomes of the enormous prestige now enjoyed by the chemist, the physicist, etc. and his claim to be somehow wiser than the rest of us?

A hundred years ago, Charles Kingsley described science as ‘making nasty smell in a laboratory’. A year or two ago a young industrial chemist informed me, smugly, that he ‘could not see what was the use of poetry’. So the pendulum swings to and fro, but it does not seem to me that one attitude is any better than the other. At the moment, science is on the upgrade, and so we hear, quite rightly, the claim that the masses should be scientifically educated: we do not hear, as we ought, the counter-claim that the scientists themselves would benefit by a little education. Just before writing this, I saw in an American magazine the statement that a number of British and American physicists refused from the start to do research on the atomic bomb, well knowing what use would be made of it. Here you have a group of same men in the middle of a world of lunatics. And though no names were published, I think it would be a safe guess that all of them were people with some kind of general cultural background, some acquaintance with history or literature or the arts — in short, people whose interests were not, in the current sense of the word, purely scientific.

+ Show Spoiler +
Orwell's text is full of conjecture's without supporting data. Also it has no bearing on discussion if technocracy(there are many flavors) would be improvement upon current system. Noone is probably saying it would be a perfect system.

Just to point out some problems I have with his arguments. He brings an example of scientists vs writers(+..) in Nazi Germany. Not that he actually has any data. In Eastern bloc the situation was in my opinion (again without any data, just my limited observation) somewhat different. But in general I think the situation is much more different. Scientists are just much less interested in politics and all the drama, they want to be left alone. So I would argue that even if he is right that there was more writers/artists/... that actively opposed nazism there was also more writers/artists/... that actively helped nazism. And since we are talking about opinions I will put forward my hypothesis. The way that writers/artists/... are easily recruited for a cause is more a bad thing than a good thing. As they are easily swayed by extremes on either side. From my own experience nations that have somewhat "cultural apathy" in national psyche are in the end much more peaceful. In some circumstances like defending against aggression it is a bad attribute, but in peaceful times it leads to less extremes, less drama. That was kind of off-topic, but shows why I dislike his argument.

That was just one of the problems with his opinion.


It is interesting that you can dismiss Orwell's concerns by re-labeling them conjectures and then attacking only one of his supporting points. From my point of view as the reader this is both intellectually indolent and a feeble response.

Orwell appears to be mostly in line with my opinion. Scientists have very specialized knowledge, and if government were able to be efficiently compartmentalized into such specific domains, scientists would make good leaders. This is not the case, however. Good leaders by necessity need to be multi-disciplinary, empathic, experts in the human condition, dynamic, flexible, willing to compromise, etc. I would assert that you do not want any of these qualities in most scientists, notably excepting the obvious.

Scientists, on the other hand, seem to make excellent advisors, in that their point of view as people who rigidly (dogmatically?) pursue the truth tends to give a healthy perspective in a decision making body or individual.

Moreover, I would like to say that the nature of your whole post is an excellent example of why technocracy is an undesirable political model. You ask for hard data in what can only amount to an NP complete problem. The discussion will absolutely have to be done in a qualitative manner for great stretches at a time. What great leaders made their decisions by the abacus? How do you measure "great leader"? When and where possible it is nice to have hard data that strongly indicates an acceptable solution, but while scientists try to do very little without 'hard data', I fear that for the rest of at least my life we will need leaders who can make excellent decisions without scientific rigor. Thus, scientists who are trained to think in very constrained ways probably will make for bad leaders.
It is not enough that I succeed, others must fail.
Saji
Profile Joined December 2010
Netherlands262 Posts
August 12 2011 14:56 GMT
#173
On August 12 2011 23:52 Roe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 23:44 meegrean wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:34 sunprince wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:31 meegrean wrote:
I don't think technocrats are going to make many decisions that would benefit the poor...


You do realize that every major reform movement which benefits the poor is backed by academics?

Why would technocrats care much about the poor when they could spend more resources on research and technological advancement?

Why would anyone care about the poor?

Because the poor = the majority of this world population and if there are more poor people the world is in a bad state.

Is it hard to comprehend that?

if you are poor in this world you simply don't have any physical or mental security try imagining that my friend how would your live look like if you were insecure of even being able to get food on a day to day basis, wouldn't you loath the system in which you live?

paradox_
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada270 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 14:59:56
August 12 2011 14:58 GMT
#174
On August 12 2011 22:51 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 22:44 paradox_ wrote:
Scientists and engineers aren't infallible or some how have more integrity than the average politician. Power corrupts and anyone in Academia will know they have their own politics in there. You give them power and it'll just turn into another shit show of disagreement that's a little more technically wordy.

There have been enough cases or research being stolen, papers being rejected by journals because the person on the board is doing the same research etc. Scientists are human, they're just specialized in a specific field of knowledge.


Scientists and engineers aren't the equivalent of politicians in a technocracy. Rather, scientists and engineers are the equivalent of citizens, while leaders of the scientific community are equivalent to politicians. The idea is that citizens should not get to vote or elect representatives to vote on issues on which they have no knowledge or expertise.

Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 22:44 paradox_ wrote:
Experts in science will disagree just as much as non-experts.


False. Experts in science have a shared knoweldge base generally accept many foundational ideas even if they disagree on details. For example, most people seem to have a very wrong idea that there is disagreement about evolution, when scientists overwhelmingly accept evolution as fact and disagree only on details.

To use a Starcraft analogy, professional Starcraft players agree on a lot more elements of strategy than noobs do, even if they have intense disagreements with each other over the details.


The disagreements on matters of science aren't the issue. When there are limited resources, there are always going to be disagreements on how to distribute those resources, regardless of who gets to decide. You put in scientists in charge of distributing funds within the sciences, you're going to get biologists vs physicists etc. Who gets to decide whether cancer research or particle physics is more important for the human condition and progress. No scientist is an expert on both, and even if one existed, there's always going to be bias just as there would be for any normal politician. You make it sound as if politicians flip a coin to decide. They have experts and read reports etc. Even during a thesis defence the committee is not necessarily going to be an expert on the topic. They go over it just as a politician would go over it and make a judgement on whether it is valid or not, deserves funding or not etc.

You can't use SC2 as an analogy at all because in SC2 choices made in a game only affect 1 person. The choices that result from this affect a larger amount. In SC2 you can discuss as much as you want and you can repeatedly try different things and show results. In the case of government, its far more complex and you don't have a "New Game" button.

Somehow thinking a group of scientists are going to be more rational than a group of politicians is silly. Scientists can be just as extremist as a a religious extremist. In the matters of government and leadership there is no formula. It just depends on the individuals. And the individuals are a representation of the population. There is a popular belief a lot of senators/politicians aren't anywhere are religious as they make themselves out to be but for them to be elected, they have to pretend. Their personalities and moral codes whether they are pretend/fake/real/honest/whatever are a representation of the population's overall personality and moral code (in a working democracy anyways)

Edit: Don't think I"m somehow saying scientists are evil folk. I'm personally an engineer who spent time in academia. All I'm saying is, expecting different results out of scientists/engineers is going to result in disappointment. Human behaviour is the problem, not politicians graduating from Harvard Law instead of MIT.
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
August 12 2011 14:59 GMT
#175
On August 12 2011 23:44 meegrean wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 23:34 sunprince wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:31 meegrean wrote:
I don't think technocrats are going to make many decisions that would benefit the poor...


You do realize that every major reform movement which benefits the poor is backed by academics?

Why would technocrats care much about the poor when they could spend more resources on research and technological advancement?

Because they are human ? Also technocracy does not mean pursuit of sciences at all cost. It just means "rule of experts".
Effay
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States153 Posts
August 12 2011 14:59 GMT
#176
basically anything would be better than democracy
Obsession: The weak minded's name for dedication
lofung
Profile Joined October 2010
Hong Kong298 Posts
August 12 2011 14:59 GMT
#177
who do you want to be ruled by?

engineers? marketing people or politicians?

engineers>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>politicians>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>marketing monkeys.
How do you counter 13 carriers? Well first of all you gave me brain cancer. -Tasteless
Saji
Profile Joined December 2010
Netherlands262 Posts
August 12 2011 15:01 GMT
#178
On August 12 2011 23:59 lofung wrote:
who do you want to be ruled by?

engineers? marketing people or politicians?

engineers>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>politicians>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>marketing monkeys.



how about not being ruled... ever considered that option???
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 15:11:07
August 12 2011 15:04 GMT
#179
On August 12 2011 23:58 paradox_ wrote:
The disagreements on matters of science aren't the issue. When there are limited resources, there are always going to be disagreements on how to distribute those resources, regardless of who gets to decide. You put in scientists in charge of distributing funds within the sciences, you're going to get biologists vs physicists etc. Who gets to decide whether cancer research or particle physics is more important for the human condition and progress. No scientist is an expert on both, and even if one existed, there's always going to be bias just as there would be for any normal politician.


Distribution of funds is not a biology or physics issue. That's an economics one.

On August 12 2011 23:58 paradox_ wrote:
You can't use SC2 as an analogy at all because in SC2 choices made in a game only affect 1 person. The choices that result from this affect a larger amount. In SC2 you can discuss as much as you want and you can repeatedly try different things and show results. In the case of government, its far more complex and you don't have a "New Game" button.


The point I'm making is that with any subject, experts agree on more things than noobs do. This is because noobs believe in things that are objectively wrong, whereas experts understand the scientific consensus and instead disagree on the edges of science and new research.

On August 12 2011 23:58 paradox_ wrote:
Somehow thinking a group of scientists are going to be more rational than a group of politicians is silly. Scientists can be just as extremist as a a religious extremist.


This sounds so ridiculous that I'm gonna ignore it and assume you mistyped that incredibly wack couple of sentences.

On August 12 2011 23:58 paradox_ wrote:
In the matters of government and leadership there is no formula. It just depends on the individuals. And the individuals are a representation of the population. There is a popular belief a lot of senators/politicians aren't anywhere are religious as they make themselves out to be but for them to be elected, they have to pretend. Their personalities and moral codes whether they are pretend/fake/real/honest/whatever are a representation of the population's overall personality and moral code (in a working democracy anyways)


So the question is, do you think it's a good thing that politicians represent the population in this regard? When people have utterly incoherent moral philosophies that they don't even live up to? When they want their nation to oppress others because their thousand-year-old religious book tells them to?

People are idiots; I don't know why you would want leaders who represent that. There's a reason why business executives aren't chosen to represent the rank-and-file employees and their values, you know.
paradox_
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada270 Posts
August 12 2011 15:05 GMT
#180
On August 12 2011 23:59 Effay wrote:
basically anything would be better than democracy


Live in a monarchy where you aren't in the favoured class and then say something like "basically anything would be better than a monarchy".
Live in a totalitarian state where you disagree with what the dictator wants and then repeat that.

At least in a democratic society you're free to say statements like this. I wonder if you've lived outside a democracy at all where you're not in the favoured class/group of people.

mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
August 12 2011 15:05 GMT
#181
On August 12 2011 23:36 haduken wrote:
B) The lack of empathy. Scientists care little about your average citizens. Sometimes the populace do things that are against logic. Public mood can swing one way or another and a scientist is not equipped to deal with that unless he has prior experiences in political science which will end up like the system we have now. Scientists would have less patient for people's opinions when he consider himself smarter than them and a scientist is just as likely as the next person to be influenced by interest groups.

This rather bad and very insulting argument. It also shows you have no experience with scientists. Why the hell would they lack empathy, they are not robots. If anything in history highly educated people showed more empathy. Also if anyone, current politicians lack empathy in much greater degree as politics is basically fight for power and that attracts more ruthless people.
Saji
Profile Joined December 2010
Netherlands262 Posts
August 12 2011 15:11 GMT
#182
On August 13 2011 00:05 paradox_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 23:59 Effay wrote:
basically anything would be better than democracy


Live in a monarchy where you aren't in the favoured class and then say something like "basically anything would be better than a monarchy".
Live in a totalitarian state where you disagree with what the dictator wants and then repeat that.

At least in a democratic society you're free to say statements like this. I wonder if you've lived outside a democracy at all where you're not in the favoured class/group of people.



Democracy is not free. If you are different you will be an outcast of a democratic society if you don't conform to the norm you will have a hard time well me what is being free about that?

Being able to say something has absolutely nothing to do with being free
meadbert
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States681 Posts
August 12 2011 15:14 GMT
#183
On August 12 2011 16:49 AustinCM wrote:
Do you think that a Technocracy could work anywhere in the world?

What is a Technocracy you ask?

A Technocracy is a form of government in which engineers, scientists, health professionals, and other technical experts are in control of decision making in their respective fields.

So do you think that it would be able to accelerate scientific discovery and advancement and how do you think it would affect the economy of the given country?\

I for one feel that this is exactly what we need and will end the OP with a quote from Winston Churchill.

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

Shit, wrong forum, please move to the General forum...


Economic decision making is more about knowledge than intelligence. If you know the supply and demand of goods, then picking prices becomes fairly trivial.

I wake up in the morning. I must now decide Milk or Juice.
Option one is to delegate that task to some high IQ expert living far away who has never met and let them decide what I have.
Option two is to consult with myself about which I think tastes better in general. Am a crazing protein? Does juice upset my empty stomach? Does milk give me gas?

When making such a decision, which is a typical economic decision, knowledge is far more important than intelligence, thus it makes no sense to ignore the knowledge of the vast majority of the population.
paradox_
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada270 Posts
August 12 2011 15:15 GMT
#184
On August 13 2011 00:04 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 23:58 paradox_ wrote:
The disagreements on matters of science aren't the issue. When there are limited resources, there are always going to be disagreements on how to distribute those resources, regardless of who gets to decide. You put in scientists in charge of distributing funds within the sciences, you're going to get biologists vs physicists etc. Who gets to decide whether cancer research or particle physics is more important for the human condition and progress. No scientist is an expert on both, and even if one existed, there's always going to be bias just as there would be for any normal politician. You make it sound as if politicians flip a coin to decide. They have experts and read reports etc. Even during a thesis defence the committee is not necessarily going to be an expert on the topic. They go over it just as a politician would go over it and make a judgement on whether it is valid or not, deserves funding or not etc.


Distribution of funds is not a biology or physics issue. That's an economics one.


Everything comes back to the economics of the situation, why do you need non-economic experts then? What is a biologist expert in government going to decide?


Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 23:58 paradox_ wrote:
You can't use SC2 as an analogy at all because in SC2 choices made in a game only affect 1 person. The choices that result from this affect a larger amount. In SC2 you can discuss as much as you want and you can repeatedly try different things and show results. In the case of government, its far more complex and you don't have a "New Game" button.


The point I'm making is that with any subject, experts agree on more things than noobs do. This is because noobs believe in things that are objectively wrong, whereas experts understand the scientific consensus and instead disagree on the edges of science and new research.


Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 23:58 paradox_ wrote:
Somehow thinking a group of scientists are going to be more rational than a group of politicians is silly. Scientists can be just as extremist as a a religious extremist.


You have no idea how stupid this sounds, do you?

You make an SC2 analogy then call this comparison stupid? Before we discuss further I would like you to explain to me what experts in whatever science of your choosing would decide in government as an example. I'm honestly confused what you think is going to happen.



Malmis
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
Sweden1569 Posts
August 12 2011 15:15 GMT
#185
On August 12 2011 23:56 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 23:51 Malmis wrote:
I think one problem is that the knowledge of experts in their respective fields are usually irrelevant at the policy level. To take medicine for example: A doctor might be the most knowledgeable person in the world regarding some specific treatment but would this knowledge give him any relevant insights into how medical care is to be supplied?


This is actually due to confusion about the field of expertise in question.

You're right that a doctor would not be the most knowledgeable in how medical care is supplied. But we also have professionals in the fields of public health and health administration. Those would be the relevant experts here, not the doctors.

In a more technocratic government, we would listen to public health and health administration experts when we enact something such as health care reform. In our system, Congress mostly ignored them and instead did what was politically expedient a couple years ago.



True,

Although i would argue that the relevant policy expert in most the controversial issues of the present day isn't some "ground level" expert (like an aerospace engineer at NASA) or an administrator, rather, it's the economist.

What issues like the war on drugs, free trade, the structure of the tax system, the supply side of health care and immigration boils down to is "What is most economically efficient?" (or at least a very big part of). And when it comes to questions of economic efficiency the relevant expert is the economist.
To Suport@Bethsoft.com: okay so i completed morrowind.. um, can i have my life back now?
paradox_
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada270 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 15:20:47
August 12 2011 15:18 GMT
#186
On August 13 2011 00:11 Saji wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 00:05 paradox_ wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:59 Effay wrote:
basically anything would be better than democracy


Live in a monarchy where you aren't in the favoured class and then say something like "basically anything would be better than a monarchy".
Live in a totalitarian state where you disagree with what the dictator wants and then repeat that.

At least in a democratic society you're free to say statements like this. I wonder if you've lived outside a democracy at all where you're not in the favoured class/group of people.



Democracy is not free. If you are different you will be an outcast of a democratic society if you don't conform to the norm you will have a hard time well me what is being free about that?

Being able to say something has absolutely nothing to do with being free


Nothing in this world is free. And if freedom of speech isn't something to do with being free, what would be? Anarchy?

Edit: Honestly everyone trying to make a point should attempt at making an argument that is articulated further than "democracy sux" & "we're not really free yo"
paradox_
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada270 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 15:28:48
August 12 2011 15:27 GMT
#187
On August 13 2011 00:05 mcc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 23:36 haduken wrote:
B) The lack of empathy. Scientists care little about your average citizens. Sometimes the populace do things that are against logic. Public mood can swing one way or another and a scientist is not equipped to deal with that unless he has prior experiences in political science which will end up like the system we have now. Scientists would have less patient for people's opinions when he consider himself smarter than them and a scientist is just as likely as the next person to be influenced by interest groups.

This rather bad and very insulting argument. It also shows you have no experience with scientists. Why the hell would they lack empathy, they are not robots. If anything in history highly educated people showed more empathy. Also if anyone, current politicians lack empathy in much greater degree as politics is basically fight for power and that attracts more ruthless people.


Gandhi is probably on everyone's top 5 list if not on top of the list of most empathetic figures in history. He's not a scientist. He was a lawyer.
There are plenty of cases of highly educated doctors performing unethical research e.g. doctors in Nazi Germany that performed experiments on the Jewish population.

I'm not saying all scientists are evil and lawyers are empathetic but rather, empathy is independent of the type of education they recieved or if they received education at all (eg Mother Theresa was born to a politician father and had no real education as she decided to become a nun pretty young).

Edit: I just read who you responded to, I disagree with him as well but my point still stands on the matter of highly educated people showing more empathy.
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
August 12 2011 15:28 GMT
#188
On August 12 2011 23:56 agitprop wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 22:39 mcc wrote:
On August 12 2011 20:50 Jibba wrote:
I've already bit off more than I want to chew today in the Bear thread and a few more places, so I'll just say 'no', and then leave you with this essay by George Orwell.

+ Show Spoiler +
George Orwell

What is Science?

In last week's Tribune, there was an interesting letter from Mr. J. Stewart Cook, in which he suggested that the best way of avoiding the danger of a ‘scientific hierarchy’ would be to see to it that every member of the general public was, as far as possible, scientifically educated. At the same time, scientists should be brought out of their isolation and encouraged to take a greater part in politics and administration.

As a general statement, I think most of us would agree with this, but I notice that, as usual, Mr. Cook does not define science, and merely implies in passing that it means certain exact sciences whose experiments can be made under laboratory conditions. Thus, adult education tends ‘to neglect scientific studies in favour of literary, economic and social subjects’, economics and sociology not being regarded as branches of science. Apparently. This point is of great importance. For the word science is at present used in at least two meanings, and the whole question of scientific education is obscured by the current tendency to dodge from one meaning to the other.

Science is generally taken as meaning either (a) the exact sciences, such as chemistry, physics, etc., or (b) a method of thought which obtains verifiable results by reasoning logically from observed fact.
If you ask any scientist, or indeed almost any educated person, ‘What is science?’ you are likely to get an answer approximating to (b). In everyday life, however, both in speaking and in writing, when people say ‘science’ they mean (a). Science means something that happens in a laboratory: the very word calls up a picture of graphs, test-tubes, balances, Bunsen burners, microscopes. A biologist, and astronomer, perhaps a psychologist or a mathematician is described as a ‘man of science’: no one would think of applying this term to a statesman, a poet, a journalist or even a philosopher. And those who tell us that the young must be scientifically educated mean, almost invariably, that they should be taught more about radioactivity, or the stars, or the physiology or their own bodies, rather than that they should be taught to think more exactly.

This confusion of meaning, which is partly deliberate, has in it a great danger. Implied in the demand for more scientific education is the claim that if one has been scientifically trained one's approach to all subjects will be more intelligent than if one had had no such training. A scientist's political opinions, it is assumed, his opinions on sociological questions, on morals, on philosophy, perhaps even on the arts, will be more valuable than those of a layman. The world, in other words, would be a better place if the scientists were in control of it. But a ‘scientist’, as we have just seen, means in practice a specialist in one of the exact sciences. It follows that a chemist or a physicist, as such, is politically more intelligent than a poet or a lawyer, as such. And, in fact, there are already millions of people who do believe this.

But is it really true that a ‘scientist’, in this narrower sense, is any likelier than other people to approach non-scientific problems in an objective way? There is not much reason for thinking so. Take one simple test — the ability to withstand nationalism. It is often loosely said that ‘Science is international’, but in practice the scientific workers of all countries line up behind their own governments with fewer scruples than are felt by the writers and the artists. The German scientific community, as a whole, made no resistance to Hitler. Hitler may have ruined the long-term prospects of German science, but there were still plenty of gifted men to do the necessary research on such things as synthetic oil, jet planes, rocket projectiles and the atomic bomb. Without them the German war machine could never have been built up.

On the other hand, what happened to German literature when the Nazis came to power? I believe no exhaustive lists have been published, but I imagine that the number of German scientists — Jews apart — who voluntarily exiled themselves or were persecuted by the règime was much smaller than the number of writers and journalists. More sinister than this, a number of German scientists swallowed the monstrosity of ‘racial science’. You can find some of the statements to which they set their names in Professor Brady's The Spirit and Structure of German Fascism.

But, in slightly different forms, it is the same picture everywhere. In England, a large proportion of our leading scientists accept the structure of capitalist society, as can be seen from the comparative freedom with which they are given knighthoods, baronetcies and even peerages. Since Tennyson, no English writer worth reading — one might, perhaps, make an exception of Sir Max Beerbohm — has been given a title. And those English scientists who do not simply accept the status quo are frequently Communists, which means that, however intellectually scrupulous they may be in their own line of work, they are ready to be uncritical and even dishonest on certain subjects. The fact is that a mere training in one or more of the exact sciences, even combined with very high gifts, is no guarantee of a humane or sceptical outlook. The physicists of half a dozen great nations, all feverishly and secretly working away at the atomic bomb, are a demonstration of this.
But does all this mean that the general public should not be more scientifically educated? On the contrary! All it means is that scientific education for the masses will do little good, and probably a lot of harm, if it simply boils down to more physics, more chemistry, more biology, etc., to the detriment of literature and history. Its probable effect on the average human being would be to narrow the range of his thoughts and make him more than ever contemptuous of such knowledge as he did not possess: and his political reactions would probably be somewhat less intelligent than those of an illiterate peasant who retained a few historical memories and a fairly sound aesthetic sense.

Clearly, scientific education ought to mean the implanting of a rational, sceptical, experimental habit of mind. It ought to mean acquiring a method — a method that can be used on any problem that one meets — and not simply piling up a lot of facts. Put it in those words, and the apologist of scientific education will usually agree. Press him further, ask him to particularize, and somehow it always turns out that scientific education means more attention to the sciences, in other words — more facts. The idea that science means a way of looking at the world, and not simply a body of knowledge, is in practice strongly resisted. I think sheer professional jealousy is part of the reason for this. For if science is simply a method or an attitude, so that anyone whose thought-processes are sufficiently rational can in some sense be described as a scientist — what then becomes of the enormous prestige now enjoyed by the chemist, the physicist, etc. and his claim to be somehow wiser than the rest of us?

A hundred years ago, Charles Kingsley described science as ‘making nasty smell in a laboratory’. A year or two ago a young industrial chemist informed me, smugly, that he ‘could not see what was the use of poetry’. So the pendulum swings to and fro, but it does not seem to me that one attitude is any better than the other. At the moment, science is on the upgrade, and so we hear, quite rightly, the claim that the masses should be scientifically educated: we do not hear, as we ought, the counter-claim that the scientists themselves would benefit by a little education. Just before writing this, I saw in an American magazine the statement that a number of British and American physicists refused from the start to do research on the atomic bomb, well knowing what use would be made of it. Here you have a group of same men in the middle of a world of lunatics. And though no names were published, I think it would be a safe guess that all of them were people with some kind of general cultural background, some acquaintance with history or literature or the arts — in short, people whose interests were not, in the current sense of the word, purely scientific.

+ Show Spoiler +
Orwell's text is full of conjecture's without supporting data. Also it has no bearing on discussion if technocracy(there are many flavors) would be improvement upon current system. Noone is probably saying it would be a perfect system.

Just to point out some problems I have with his arguments. He brings an example of scientists vs writers(+..) in Nazi Germany. Not that he actually has any data. In Eastern bloc the situation was in my opinion (again without any data, just my limited observation) somewhat different. But in general I think the situation is much more different. Scientists are just much less interested in politics and all the drama, they want to be left alone. So I would argue that even if he is right that there was more writers/artists/... that actively opposed nazism there was also more writers/artists/... that actively helped nazism. And since we are talking about opinions I will put forward my hypothesis. The way that writers/artists/... are easily recruited for a cause is more a bad thing than a good thing. As they are easily swayed by extremes on either side. From my own experience nations that have somewhat "cultural apathy" in national psyche are in the end much more peaceful. In some circumstances like defending against aggression it is a bad attribute, but in peaceful times it leads to less extremes, less drama. That was kind of off-topic, but shows why I dislike his argument.

That was just one of the problems with his opinion.


It is interesting that you can dismiss Orwell's concerns by re-labeling them conjectures and then attacking only one of his supporting points. From my point of view as the reader this is both intellectually indolent and a feeble response.

Because they are conjectures. They are nothing more than opinions. He did not provide any evidence for his arguments other than rhetoric. Also note that I said that his whole quote does not really address current discussion very much. He is talking about pitfalls of concentrating on specific type of education not really on why democracy is better than technocracy, especially since they can overlap. His characterization of scientists is also as far from truth as yours.

On August 12 2011 23:56 agitprop wrote:
Orwell appears to be mostly in line with my opinion. Scientists have very specialized knowledge, and if government were able to be efficiently compartmentalized into such specific domains, scientists would make good leaders. This is not the case, however. Good leaders by necessity need to be multi-disciplinary, empathic, experts in the human condition, dynamic, flexible, willing to compromise, etc. I would assert that you do not want any of these qualities in most scientists, notably excepting the obvious.

Scientists, on the other hand, seem to make excellent advisors, in that their point of view as people who rigidly (dogmatically?) pursue the truth tends to give a healthy perspective in a decision making body or individual.

Your characterization of scientists is pure fiction, cliche from sci-fi movies. Scientists often have those qualities that you prescribe for leaders. Also elected leaders more often than not are lacking on those qualities you so desire.

On August 12 2011 23:56 agitprop wrote:
Moreover, I would like to say that the nature of your whole post is an excellent example of why technocracy is an undesirable political model. You ask for hard data in what can only amount to an NP complete problem. The discussion will absolutely have to be done in a qualitative manner for great stretches at a time. What great leaders made their decisions by the abacus? How do you measure "great leader"? When and where possible it is nice to have hard data that strongly indicates an acceptable solution, but while scientists try to do very little without 'hard data', I fear that for the rest of at least my life we will need leaders who can make excellent decisions without scientific rigor. Thus, scientists who are trained to think in very constrained ways probably will make for bad leaders.

I ask for data that support his claims, this has nothing to do with NP-complete problems. As for real life problems, yes they are likely NP-complete, so what ? Scientist/engineers are more than capable and trained to make calls without complete information. Again you display that you probably never met one scientist.

And just to note NP-complete problems are bitch to find optimal solution. But if sub-optimal solution is good enough, and in real life problems this is always the case, often even very close-to-optimal solution can be found in P time.
Saji
Profile Joined December 2010
Netherlands262 Posts
August 12 2011 15:29 GMT
#189
On August 13 2011 00:18 paradox_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 00:11 Saji wrote:
On August 13 2011 00:05 paradox_ wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:59 Effay wrote:
basically anything would be better than democracy


Live in a monarchy where you aren't in the favoured class and then say something like "basically anything would be better than a monarchy".
Live in a totalitarian state where you disagree with what the dictator wants and then repeat that.

At least in a democratic society you're free to say statements like this. I wonder if you've lived outside a democracy at all where you're not in the favoured class/group of people.



Democracy is not free. If you are different you will be an outcast of a democratic society if you don't conform to the norm you will have a hard time well me what is being free about that?

Being able to say something has absolutely nothing to do with being free


Nothing in this world is free. And if freedom of speech isn't something to do with being free, what would be? Anarchy?

Edit: Honestly everyone trying to make a point should attempt at making an argument that is articulated further than "democracy sux" & "we're not really free yo"


Really I question that... When you look at a flower without any prejudice, your just looking just observing that is free.

I understand why you react this way because your whole existence is based on democracy and if someone questions that you go on auto defense (I`m saying you but i don't mean it personal)

And if what you claim is to be true that nothing is free why has the human race always fought for freedom? if nothing of that is true then slaves would remain slaves right?

Aristocrats would still rule the land right? You would follow order blindly right? But do you do that?

And if freedom of speech has nothing to do with being free than why is that word in it? and why is it so important it place such a important factor in our live, through out our live.

If you are with friends, friends that you can question that you don't care saying what you think, even if you know they don't like it or disagree that is freedom right there.
sevia
Profile Joined May 2010
United States954 Posts
August 12 2011 15:29 GMT
#190
What defines an 'expert' in a field? In some areas you can easily demonstrate knowledge (e.g. climate science), but in others, what passes for 'expert' is subjective (e.g. economics, ethics).

Apply this to recent history to see what a disaster it would be. A small panel of experts regarding terrorism and foreign policy, a small panel of experts regarding Wall St. and financial crisis, a small panel of experts regarding taxation and budgeting, etc. It would be the same situation we're in now, with each side constantly trying to convince the public that they are the true experts.

It would be nice if this were used for things like drug legalization, environmental regulation, and other issues where there are studies and research to confirm the correct decision. But even then, people will disagree based purely on personal belief and misinformation (I'm sure a few people even here get prickly when I mention controversial issues like that and state that there is a correct decision).
최지성 Bomber || 김동환 viOLet || 고병재 GuMiho
bonifaceviii
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada2890 Posts
August 12 2011 15:29 GMT
#191
I can understand the OP's line of reasoning.

Government hires technical consultants to look into issues and report back with reccommendations. Why not eliminate the middle-man and make the technical people the ones who make the decisions?

The problem is there would be no central decision-making body, just a bunch of cloistered, separate divisions that all administer their work from their own discipline's point of view with no over-arching (as awful and meaningless as this word is)... vision.

Unless you're saying that public administration "professionals" would be that body, in which case it's not qualitatively different than it is today.
Stay a while and listen || http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=354018
Hermasaurus
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
54 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 15:31:36
August 12 2011 15:30 GMT
#192
On August 12 2011 23:32 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 23:30 Hermasaurus wrote:
You lack the ability to see from a different perspective. Instead of a technocracy, why don't you look into dictatorship.


You have no idea what you're talking about, so instead you try to attack me by equating technocracy with dictatorship. GTFO of the thread, troll.

Coming from I had 50 posts before this thread, and I've reached 200 by posting every other post for 9 pages.
Glad to see you've found a topic you think you know something about.

We understand your opinion, why don't you allow other people to convey their own.
And guess what, you've wandered into our school of tuna and we now have a taste of lion. We've talked to ourselves. We've communicated and said 'You know what, lion tastes good, let's go get some more lion'
Dragom
Profile Joined December 2010
194 Posts
August 12 2011 15:31 GMT
#193
Yes, i dont understand why we elected generals with no political experience and then blame them when the economy is bad and they start a war with some obscure country.
"The second thing to go is your memory...ergh, I can't remember what the first thing is..."
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 15:37:17
August 12 2011 15:33 GMT
#194
On August 13 2011 00:15 paradox_ wrote:
Everything comes back to the economics of the situation, why do you need non-economic experts then? What is a biologist expert in government going to decide?


Economists determine funding, but legislation within the field is determined by those experts. For example, biologists would decide that teaching evolution is mandatory and creationism is banned, stem-cell research should be allowed, etc.Additionally, economists would base their funding decisions based on information provided by the biologists.

On August 13 2011 00:15 paradox_ wrote:
Before we discuss further I would like you to explain to me what experts in whatever science of your choosing would decide in government as an example. I'm honestly confused what you think is going to happen.


An easy example would be the current debt crisis. Here's how it would work in a technocracy.

The members of the National Academy of Sciences (Economic Sciences) analyze the situation and crunch the numbers. They arrive at a consensus over how to handle the problem, and submit a proposed budget. Congress looks it over, makes constrained modifications to ensure that no constituency is disproportionately impacted in terms of gain or harm, and then pass it off to the President to sign. The public grumbles at the massive spending cuts and tax increases, but the deficit is closed and the debt comes under control within a few years. How's that?

On August 13 2011 00:30 Hermasaurus wrote:
Coming from I had 50 posts before this thread, and I've reached 200 by posting every other post for 9 pages.
Glad to see you've found a topic you think you know something about.

We understand your opinion, why don't you allow other people to convey their own.


Thanks for continuing to contribute nothing to the thread!
bonifaceviii
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada2890 Posts
August 12 2011 15:36 GMT
#195
On August 13 2011 00:33 sunprince wrote:
An easy example would be the current debt crisis. Here's how it would work in a technocracy.

The members of the National Academy of Sciences (Economic Sciences) analyze the situation and crunch the numbers. They arrive at a consensus over how to handle the problem, and submit a proposed budget. Congress looks it over, makes constrained modifications to ensure that no constituency is disproportionately impacted in terms of gain or harm, and then pass it off to the President to sign. The public grumbles at the massive spending cuts and tax increases, but the deficit is closed and the debt comes under control within a few years. How's that?

HAHAHA, because that's not political at all and completely scientific
Stay a while and listen || http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=354018
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 15:40:42
August 12 2011 15:38 GMT
#196
On August 13 2011 00:36 bonifaceviii wrote:
HAHAHA, because that's not political at all and completely scientific


It's not pure technocracy, no. It's a simple example of how we could shift the existing system towards technocracy.

If you want, you can also make it more extreme by removing the Congressional component entirely, or even the President.

The key point, though, is the technocratic policymaking process.
NoobSkills
Profile Joined August 2009
United States1598 Posts
August 12 2011 15:41 GMT
#197
On August 12 2011 16:49 AustinCM wrote:
Do you think that a Technocracy could work anywhere in the world?

What is a Technocracy you ask?

A Technocracy is a form of government in which engineers, scientists, health professionals, and other technical experts are in control of decision making in their respective fields.

So do you think that it would be able to accelerate scientific discovery and advancement and how do you think it would affect the economy of the given country?\

I for one feel that this is exactly what we need and will end the OP with a quote from Winston Churchill.

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

Shit, wrong forum, please move to the General forum...


About 50% of the voters shouldn't be voting.
BUT having the top dogs from the private sector run things will lead to more corruption and stealing. It will always happen.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 15:43:06
August 12 2011 15:42 GMT
#198
On August 13 2011 00:29 bonifaceviii wrote:
Government hires technical consultants to look into issues and report back with reccommendations. Why not eliminate the middle-man and make the technical people the ones who make the decisions?

The problem is there would be no central decision-making body, just a bunch of cloistered, separate divisions that all administer their work from their own discipline's point of view with no over-arching (as awful and meaningless as this word is)... vision.

Unless you're saying that public administration "professionals" would be that body, in which case it's not qualitatively different than it is today.


It's not necessary to eliminate the middle-man entirely, as I avoided doing so in my proposed example. The main issue is that, currently, the government doesn't actually listen to the technical consultants.

On August 13 2011 00:41 NoobSkills wrote:
About 50% of the voters shouldn't be voting.
BUT having the top dogs from the private sector run things will lead to more corruption and stealing. It will always happen.


Technocrats =/= top dogs from the private sector. Mostly they're the top dogs from academia, if anything.
Saji
Profile Joined December 2010
Netherlands262 Posts
August 12 2011 15:42 GMT
#199
On August 13 2011 00:36 bonifaceviii wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 00:33 sunprince wrote:
An easy example would be the current debt crisis. Here's how it would work in a technocracy.

The members of the National Academy of Sciences (Economic Sciences) analyze the situation and crunch the numbers. They arrive at a consensus over how to handle the problem, and submit a proposed budget. Congress looks it over, makes constrained modifications to ensure that no constituency is disproportionately impacted in terms of gain or harm, and then pass it off to the President to sign. The public grumbles at the massive spending cuts and tax increases, but the deficit is closed and the debt comes under control within a few years. How's that?

HAHAHA, because that's not political at all and completely scientific


This is a perfect example why it would not work...

You don't the solve the problem because the root cause of it is not even been identified.... the fact that the debt grew that much should ring an alarm on what has been done but that part is totally negated while trying to lower the debt

and after a while the same problem will arise and the same reason the same line of thought is applied and we will have more problems
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
August 12 2011 15:43 GMT
#200
On August 13 2011 00:27 paradox_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 00:05 mcc wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:36 haduken wrote:
B) The lack of empathy. Scientists care little about your average citizens. Sometimes the populace do things that are against logic. Public mood can swing one way or another and a scientist is not equipped to deal with that unless he has prior experiences in political science which will end up like the system we have now. Scientists would have less patient for people's opinions when he consider himself smarter than them and a scientist is just as likely as the next person to be influenced by interest groups.

This rather bad and very insulting argument. It also shows you have no experience with scientists. Why the hell would they lack empathy, they are not robots. If anything in history highly educated people showed more empathy. Also if anyone, current politicians lack empathy in much greater degree as politics is basically fight for power and that attracts more ruthless people.


Gandhi is probably on everyone's top 5 list if not on top of the list of most empathetic figures in history. He's not a scientist. He was a lawyer.
There are plenty of cases of highly educated doctors performing unethical research e.g. doctors in Nazi Germany that performed experiments on the Jewish population.

I'm not saying all scientists are evil and lawyers are empathetic but rather, empathy is independent of the type of education they recieved or if they received education at all (eg Mother Theresa was born to a politician father and had no real education as she decided to become a nun pretty young).

Edit: I just read who you responded to, I disagree with him as well but my point still stands on the matter of highly educated people showing more empathy.

You are kind of right as I did not word my point properly. First we are talking statistics, so individual examples are not disqualifying my point. Second, basically what I meant is that highly educated people in history showed more empathy towards people they were not close with. This basically because they think more about public policy issues and similar. So it is not capacity for empathy I am talking about. For example movement to abolish slavery came form educated circles, ...
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 15:46:37
August 12 2011 15:45 GMT
#201
On August 13 2011 00:42 Saji wrote:
This is a perfect example why it would not work...

You don't the solve the problem because the root cause of it is not even been identified.... the fact that the debt grew that much should ring an alarm on what has been done but that part is totally negated while trying to lower the debt

and after a while the same problem will arise and the same reason the same line of thought is applied and we will have more problems


What in the world are you talking about? I'm pretty I had it covered with 'analyzing the situation'.

The root cause of the debt is greater spending obligations than tax revenue. If you reform spending and taxes dramatically, then of course the problems will be resolved. (And just in case you're not aware, spending reform = cutting spending and tax reform = raising taxes).
paradox_
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada270 Posts
August 12 2011 15:46 GMT
#202
On August 13 2011 00:33 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 00:15 paradox_ wrote:
Everything comes back to the economics of the situation, why do you need non-economic experts then? What is a biologist expert in government going to decide?


Economists determine funding, but legislation within the field is determined by those experts. For example, biologists would decide that teaching evolution is mandatory and creationism is banned, stem-cell research should be allowed, etc.Additionally, economists would base their funding decisions based on information provided by the biologists.

Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 00:15 paradox_ wrote:
Before we discuss further I would like you to explain to me what experts in whatever science of your choosing would decide in government as an example. I'm honestly confused what you think is going to happen.


An easy example would be the current debt crisis. Here's how it would work in a technocracy.

The members of the National Academy of Sciences (Economic Sciences) analyze the situation and crunch the numbers. They arrive at a consensus over how to handle the problem, and submit a proposed budget. Congress looks it over, makes constrained modifications to ensure that no constituency is disproportionately impacted in terms of gain or harm, and then pass it off to the President to sign. The public grumbles at the massive spending cuts and tax increases, but the deficit is closed and the debt comes under control within a few years. How's that?


Ok perfect now within these expert economists, there are going to be Keynesians and there are going to be Monetarists. They now have 2 opposing ideas that are fundamentally different. How are they going to approach a consensus when they are coming from 2 different schools of thought. They haven't after this long chances are they're not going to wrap it up in the near future. So instead of the gridlock of policy occurring on the senate floor, it'll happen in a boardroom in the National Academy of Sciences building or whatever.
KimJongChill
Profile Joined January 2011
United States6429 Posts
August 12 2011 15:48 GMT
#203
Sure sounds like this. The current system doesn't do much anyways in the way of leadership.
MMA: U realise MMA: Most of my army EgIdra: fuck off MMA: Killed my orbital MMA: LOL MMA: just saying MMA: u werent loss
acgFork
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada397 Posts
August 12 2011 15:49 GMT
#204
On August 12 2011 17:06 Krogzor wrote:
What an absurd idea.



Says the fellow from North Korea.
acgFork 208
nennx
Profile Joined April 2010
United States310 Posts
August 12 2011 15:52 GMT
#205
I think it would be better to have some more intelligent people in office, but I don't think a fully run by scientist government would work. I totally agree though that people in charge of important decisions in some area should actually have a background in that area.
Sup
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 15:55:06
August 12 2011 15:52 GMT
#206
On August 13 2011 00:46 paradox_ wrote:
Ok perfect now within these expert economists, there are going to be Keynesians and there are going to be Monetarists. They now have 2 opposing ideas that are fundamentally different. How are they going to approach a consensus when they are coming from 2 different schools of thought. They haven't after this long chances are they're not going to wrap it up in the near future. So instead of the gridlock of policy occurring on the senate floor, it'll happen in a boardroom in the National Academy of Sciences building or whatever.


You seem to be behind the times. Keynsian and Monetarist thought has substantially converged sinced the debates of the 1970s. There are differences still, but they can compromise, and they can certainly vote on opposing policies as well if they can't reach a consensus by a deadline.

Additionally, if the NAS economists could affect public policy, you can be sure that they would have already studied this day and night and have debated out the policy much more ahead of time (if they even allowed the problem to progress this far). Compared to Congress, they also benefit from being able to study economic policy all the time instead of worrying about other issues like health care, the wars, or re-elections.
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 15:58:06
August 12 2011 15:54 GMT
#207
On August 12 2011 23:51 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 23:44 meegrean wrote:
Why would technocrats care much about the poor when they could spend more resources on research and technological advancement?


*sigh* Despite how the name sounds, 'technocrat' does not mean 'technology-oriented'. It means that experts are in charge of their respective fields.

Economics, sociology, urban development, education, philosophy, ethics, etc. are all fields of knowledge with experts that care about things like social inequality.

In fact, the only reason you even know about things like the growing wealth gap is because of those experts. They're also the only ones presenting solutions.

What makes you think this isn't already in place? Do you think Congress people are the ones writing their bills and doing research?

They publicize vote getting but at the core of governmental decision making are un-elected experts whom the politicians rely on. Some are truly idiots, but most are intelligent but conflicted and the things they say aren't truly indicative of their stance. Politicians are the ones who balance and mediate expert opinions, along with their own, but it's not as if the experts don't have a very large role in government. Weber was writing about this 100 years ago when he wrote on bureaucracy.

And if you think the experts can actually come to consensus on their own without some type of arbitration, you're wrong. You can point fingers at politicians running elections or getting funding from lobbyists but truth be told, those lobbyists are often the ones who provide the most expertise, and removing elections won't change the fact that they'll influence decisions and appropriations for their own cause.

And the "science" of macroeconomic theory is a bit of a joke. It's like reading goat entrails.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
August 12 2011 15:54 GMT
#208
On August 13 2011 00:46 paradox_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 00:33 sunprince wrote:
On August 13 2011 00:15 paradox_ wrote:
Everything comes back to the economics of the situation, why do you need non-economic experts then? What is a biologist expert in government going to decide?


Economists determine funding, but legislation within the field is determined by those experts. For example, biologists would decide that teaching evolution is mandatory and creationism is banned, stem-cell research should be allowed, etc.Additionally, economists would base their funding decisions based on information provided by the biologists.

On August 13 2011 00:15 paradox_ wrote:
Before we discuss further I would like you to explain to me what experts in whatever science of your choosing would decide in government as an example. I'm honestly confused what you think is going to happen.


An easy example would be the current debt crisis. Here's how it would work in a technocracy.

The members of the National Academy of Sciences (Economic Sciences) analyze the situation and crunch the numbers. They arrive at a consensus over how to handle the problem, and submit a proposed budget. Congress looks it over, makes constrained modifications to ensure that no constituency is disproportionately impacted in terms of gain or harm, and then pass it off to the President to sign. The public grumbles at the massive spending cuts and tax increases, but the deficit is closed and the debt comes under control within a few years. How's that?


Ok perfect now within these expert economists, there are going to be Keynesians and there are going to be Monetarists. They now have 2 opposing ideas that are fundamentally different. How are they going to approach a consensus when they are coming from 2 different schools of thought. They haven't after this long chances are they're not going to wrap it up in the near future. So instead of the gridlock of policy occurring on the senate floor, it'll happen in a boardroom in the National Academy of Sciences building or whatever.

He could argue that only "real" scientific economists would be considered, but that in the end leads nowhere. That is why I think there is no need to go all the way and eliminate all democratic processes. On general policy matters people would vote. Only things that can be reasonably well answered by science or smaller details would be decided by technocrats.
paradox_
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada270 Posts
August 12 2011 15:57 GMT
#209
On August 13 2011 00:43 mcc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 00:27 paradox_ wrote:
On August 13 2011 00:05 mcc wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:36 haduken wrote:
B) The lack of empathy. Scientists care little about your average citizens. Sometimes the populace do things that are against logic. Public mood can swing one way or another and a scientist is not equipped to deal with that unless he has prior experiences in political science which will end up like the system we have now. Scientists would have less patient for people's opinions when he consider himself smarter than them and a scientist is just as likely as the next person to be influenced by interest groups.

This rather bad and very insulting argument. It also shows you have no experience with scientists. Why the hell would they lack empathy, they are not robots. If anything in history highly educated people showed more empathy. Also if anyone, current politicians lack empathy in much greater degree as politics is basically fight for power and that attracts more ruthless people.


Gandhi is probably on everyone's top 5 list if not on top of the list of most empathetic figures in history. He's not a scientist. He was a lawyer.
There are plenty of cases of highly educated doctors performing unethical research e.g. doctors in Nazi Germany that performed experiments on the Jewish population.

I'm not saying all scientists are evil and lawyers are empathetic but rather, empathy is independent of the type of education they recieved or if they received education at all (eg Mother Theresa was born to a politician father and had no real education as she decided to become a nun pretty young).

Edit: I just read who you responded to, I disagree with him as well but my point still stands on the matter of highly educated people showing more empathy.

You are kind of right as I did not word my point properly. First we are talking statistics, so individual examples are not disqualifying my point. Second, basically what I meant is that highly educated people in history showed more empathy towards people they were not close with. This basically because they think more about public policy issues and similar. So it is not capacity for empathy I am talking about. For example movement to abolish slavery came form educated circles, ...


Ah ok understood. But to further discuss your point by your own logic though 1 example isn't representative of the whole picture. Educated circles existed when slavery started (I know slavery existed since humans developed the idea of ownership, but I'm referring to lets say the last 2 centuries). If they are more in tune with the human condition they would have not allowed or at least resisted slavery far earlier in human history. The idea that experts are more equipped or less equipped to be empathetic isn't valid imo. They're human. The individual is either empathetic or they're not for whatever reasons it may be. Politicians can be empathetic just as much as a scientist and scientists can be as "evil" as a politician.
Saji
Profile Joined December 2010
Netherlands262 Posts
August 12 2011 15:59 GMT
#210
On August 13 2011 00:45 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 00:42 Saji wrote:
This is a perfect example why it would not work...

You don't the solve the problem because the root cause of it is not even been identified.... the fact that the debt grew that much should ring an alarm on what has been done but that part is totally negated while trying to lower the debt

and after a while the same problem will arise and the same reason the same line of thought is applied and we will have more problems


What in the world are you talking about? I'm pretty I had it covered with 'analyzing the situation'.

The root cause of the debt is greater spending obligations than tax revenue. If you reform spending and taxes dramatically, then of course the problems will be resolved. (And just in case you're not aware, spending reform = cutting spending and tax reform = raising taxes).


I don't want to get too much derailed but is that really the root cause? What you are telling me sound more like a text book theory than what has happened in reality.

Also i don't understand what you mean by "I'm pretty I had it covered with 'analyzing the situation' " could you elaborate?


Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
August 12 2011 16:00 GMT
#211
On August 13 2011 00:43 mcc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 00:27 paradox_ wrote:
On August 13 2011 00:05 mcc wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:36 haduken wrote:
B) The lack of empathy. Scientists care little about your average citizens. Sometimes the populace do things that are against logic. Public mood can swing one way or another and a scientist is not equipped to deal with that unless he has prior experiences in political science which will end up like the system we have now. Scientists would have less patient for people's opinions when he consider himself smarter than them and a scientist is just as likely as the next person to be influenced by interest groups.

This rather bad and very insulting argument. It also shows you have no experience with scientists. Why the hell would they lack empathy, they are not robots. If anything in history highly educated people showed more empathy. Also if anyone, current politicians lack empathy in much greater degree as politics is basically fight for power and that attracts more ruthless people.


Gandhi is probably on everyone's top 5 list if not on top of the list of most empathetic figures in history. He's not a scientist. He was a lawyer.
There are plenty of cases of highly educated doctors performing unethical research e.g. doctors in Nazi Germany that performed experiments on the Jewish population.

I'm not saying all scientists are evil and lawyers are empathetic but rather, empathy is independent of the type of education they recieved or if they received education at all (eg Mother Theresa was born to a politician father and had no real education as she decided to become a nun pretty young).

Edit: I just read who you responded to, I disagree with him as well but my point still stands on the matter of highly educated people showing more empathy.

You are kind of right as I did not word my point properly. First we are talking statistics, so individual examples are not disqualifying my point. Second, basically what I meant is that highly educated people in history showed more empathy towards people they were not close with. This basically because they think more about public policy issues and similar. So it is not capacity for empathy I am talking about. For example movement to abolish slavery came form educated circles, ...
And the movement to institutionalize slavery also came from educated circles. The post-Bacon's Rebellion horror that was slavery in the American South was entirely created and led by aristocrats and the educated. I don't see your point.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
lithiumdeuteride
Profile Joined June 2011
96 Posts
August 12 2011 16:01 GMT
#212
I have my doubts that it would be more just than current representative democracies. But I have no doubts that it would be more efficient. Instead of delegating to an endless chain of bureaucrats, a technocrat would analyze a problem by themselves or with a few assistants, quickly arriving at a solution.
Sweet bacteria of Liberia!
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
August 12 2011 16:06 GMT
#213
On August 13 2011 00:54 Jibba wrote:
What makes you think this isn't already in place? Do you think Congress people are the ones writing their bills and doing research?


As I've stated elsewhere in the thread, the technocratic elements are in place; Congress can simply ignore it when it's inconvenient for them though, which is the problem. There are numerous issues that are politically controversial and aren't resolved properly or at all despite widespread scientific consensus.

On August 13 2011 00:54 Jibba wrote:
And if you think the experts can actually come to consensus on their own without some type of arbitration, you're wrong. You can point fingers at politicians running elections or getting funding from lobbyists but truth be told, those lobbyists are often the ones who provide the most expertise, and removing elections won't change the fact that they'll influence decisions and appropriations for their own cause.


The NAS has a website with their publications, which basically indicates their consensus: http://www.nap.edu/ Additionally, the President has requested special reports from the NAS in the past, and recieved comprehensive reports with consensuses on policy suggestions within a few years.
xarthaz
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1704 Posts
August 12 2011 16:06 GMT
#214
A technocracy is by definition socialism. Socialism of all sorts has been completely refuted, utterly destroyed in its own terms, by strict methodology, 100 years ago. In Mises' Socialism.
Aah thats the stuff..
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 16:11:28
August 12 2011 16:08 GMT
#215
On August 13 2011 01:06 sunprince wrote:
The NAS has a website with their publications, which basically indicates their consensus: http://www.nap.edu/ Additionally, the President has requested special reports from the NAS in the past, and recieved comprehensive reports with consensuses on policy suggestions within a few years.

Those are not all the experts, and not necessarily the best experts either. My father is actually on a committee in the National Academy of Sciences, and in his opinion their meetings are almost entirely a waste of time. The group doesn't meet often enough to be productive (since, in order to be an expert, they have to focus on their own work first) and they come from such diverse backgrounds that they rarely come to an agreement on anything.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
50bani
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Romania480 Posts
August 12 2011 16:09 GMT
#216
Techocracy and democracy are very compatible. The democratic process is going to set very generalstandards, goals, benchmarks for the techocrats to achieve, by any means they deem necessary. All things will move towards those goals, and be developed incrementally.

The thing in our "democratic" world is that the majority of the people are outright dumb or ignorant and can easily be persuaded to believe absurd things so even if we switched to a system where the current "ruling elite" were replaced by lieutenants or administrators for the random guy on the street, someone would still emerge as a charismatic leader and influence public opinion, and the people will set absurd goals to the technocrats.

So you would need a more insightful populace to make technocracy work, people will always find a way to feel crossed and protest for their rights or whatever.

A pure technocracy, where the technocrats also set the goals would make for a dictatorship. For what it's worth, this form of government has been quite popular in the recent past, and still lives today in the People's Republic of China.

Btw I did not read the thread. Too long, too bad
I'm posting on twoplustwo because I have always been amazed at the level of talent that populates this site --- it's almost unparalleled on the Internet.
Chimpalimp
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1135 Posts
August 12 2011 16:11 GMT
#217
While I think scientists and engineers could run their respective sectors better than the political mess we see today, there are obstacles. I feel that individual scientists and engineers would be too easily swayed by special interests. Politicians are being watched by the media, so they have to be much more careful about how they get their special interest money. Who is going to watch over 200.000 engineers and scientists?

Engineers and scientists would be the least of the problems. Having the sharks of wall street run the economy would make me vomit uncontrollably.
I like money. You like money too? We should hang out.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
August 12 2011 16:11 GMT
#218
On August 13 2011 00:59 Saji wrote:
I don't want to get too much derailed but is that really the root cause? What you are telling me sound more like a text book theory than what has happened in reality.


There's lots of complex reasons that would require ridiculous amounts of derailing. Plus, I'm not an economist. So I'll just direct you to here.

On August 13 2011 00:59 Saji wrote:
Also i don't understand what you mean by "I'm pretty I had it covered with 'analyzing the situation' " could you elaborate?


What I mean is that it's pretty obvious that in researching the problem and proposing policy solutions, economists would address the root causes.
Probe1
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States17920 Posts
August 12 2011 16:12 GMT
#219
On August 13 2011 01:06 xarthaz wrote:
A technocracy is by definition socialism. Socialism of all sorts has been completely refuted, utterly destroyed in its own terms, by strict methodology, 100 years ago. In Mises' Socialism.


Technocracy is socialism


Socialism has been counter argued by Ludwig von Mises and my stance is his so please account for his arguments instead of mine.



The bottom line I am fine with. The top line I can't wrap my head around. How did you go from Technocracy to socialism like snapping your fingers.
우정호 KT_VIOLET 1988 - 2012 While we are postponing, life speeds by
0neder
Profile Joined July 2009
United States3733 Posts
August 12 2011 16:12 GMT
#220
Hah, engineers and scientists running the government? What about leaders who can deal with people and social issues?
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
August 12 2011 16:13 GMT
#221
On August 13 2011 01:06 xarthaz wrote:
A technocracy is by definition socialism. Socialism of all sorts has been completely refuted, utterly destroyed in its own terms, by strict methodology, 100 years ago. In Mises' Socialism.

Oh jesus christ... fyi in a panel of economics technocrats I doubt there'd be anyone from Mises.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
Malmis
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
Sweden1569 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 16:15:57
August 12 2011 16:14 GMT
#222
On August 13 2011 01:06 xarthaz wrote:
A technocracy is by definition socialism. Socialism of all sorts has been completely refuted, utterly destroyed in its own terms, by strict methodology, 100 years ago. In Mises' Socialism.


I think it all depends on what kinds of power you give to the state, if all the means of production were owned by a state run by experts then i think the system could properly be called technocratic socialism. However if the state was of a limited kind(respected property rights etc.) and was run by experts, it would not be socialist.
To Suport@Bethsoft.com: okay so i completed morrowind.. um, can i have my life back now?
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
August 12 2011 16:15 GMT
#223
On August 13 2011 01:08 Jibba wrote:
Those are not all the experts, and not necessarily the best experts either. My father is actually on a committee in the National Academy of Sciences, and in his opinion their meetings are almost entirely a waste of time. The group doesn't meet often enough to be productive (since, in order to be an expert, they have to focus on their own work first) and they come from such diverse backgrounds that they rarely come to an agreement on anything.


I don't disagree. However, I think it would not be unreasonable to assert that they would be more productive if they could actually write policy, especially given that they've been very capable of producing special reports in the past when asked.
50bani
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Romania480 Posts
August 12 2011 16:15 GMT
#224
On August 13 2011 01:13 Jibba wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 01:06 xarthaz wrote:
A technocracy is by definition socialism. Socialism of all sorts has been completely refuted, utterly destroyed in its own terms, by strict methodology, 100 years ago. In Mises' Socialism.

Oh jesus christ... fyi in a panel of economics technocrats I doubt there'd be anyone from Mises.

Well, perhaps they should
I'm posting on twoplustwo because I have always been amazed at the level of talent that populates this site --- it's almost unparalleled on the Internet.
NoobSkills
Profile Joined August 2009
United States1598 Posts
August 12 2011 16:16 GMT
#225
On August 13 2011 00:42 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 00:29 bonifaceviii wrote:
Government hires technical consultants to look into issues and report back with reccommendations. Why not eliminate the middle-man and make the technical people the ones who make the decisions?

The problem is there would be no central decision-making body, just a bunch of cloistered, separate divisions that all administer their work from their own discipline's point of view with no over-arching (as awful and meaningless as this word is)... vision.

Unless you're saying that public administration "professionals" would be that body, in which case it's not qualitatively different than it is today.


It's not necessary to eliminate the middle-man entirely, as I avoided doing so in my proposed example. The main issue is that, currently, the government doesn't actually listen to the technical consultants.

Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 00:41 NoobSkills wrote:
About 50% of the voters shouldn't be voting.
BUT having the top dogs from the private sector run things will lead to more corruption and stealing. It will always happen.


Technocrats =/= top dogs from the private sector. Mostly they're the top dogs from academia, if anything.


Best at their jobs, makes the most money, smartest = top dogs and from the private sector is where they would come from. Now, in principal if they were to truly look out for the country, it would be in better hands, engineers instead of government officials would be making the deals to build bridges and they might actually last some time, but I don't think it would be too long before they would become a new bread. Smart politicians would be dangerous
paradox_
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada270 Posts
August 12 2011 16:18 GMT
#226
On August 13 2011 00:52 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 00:46 paradox_ wrote:
Ok perfect now within these expert economists, there are going to be Keynesians and there are going to be Monetarists. They now have 2 opposing ideas that are fundamentally different. How are they going to approach a consensus when they are coming from 2 different schools of thought. They haven't after this long chances are they're not going to wrap it up in the near future. So instead of the gridlock of policy occurring on the senate floor, it'll happen in a boardroom in the National Academy of Sciences building or whatever.


You seem to be behind the times. Keynsian and Monetarist thought has substantially converged sinced the debates of the 1970s. There are differences still, but they can compromise, and they can certainly vote on opposing policies as well if they can't reach a consensus by a deadline.


You're right, my economic theory is rather weak since my field of study is engineering but the point still stands. There are still going to be different schools of thought, maybe much more subtle but the differences are you said exist. There is no guarantee that those on the committee are more subjective to make decisions on public policy and will even come to a compromise faster than the senate. What you're proposing is basically another senate just on the matter of economics. You think economists are somehow going to show different human behaviour in that their "mini senate" isn't going to breakdown into the gong show that's occurring right now?

On August 13 2011 00:52 sunprince wrote:
Additionally, if the NAS economists could affect public policy, you can be sure that they would have already studied this day and night and have debated out the policy much more ahead of time (if they even allowed the problem to progress this far). Compared to Congress, they also benefit from being able to study economic policy all the time instead of worrying about other issues like health care, the wars, or re-elections.

You make it sound as if senators simply make up policy while on the toilet. They have experts and advisers on the matter at hand when they write policy. The senate is simply the forum to present ideas before the people elected make a decision on the value of the idea. What you're saying is to simply move this forum to a more specialized location (NAS). Now what happens when the decisions made by this specialized body affects healthcare, because it will. Let's even assume they somehow manage to agree on a policy and then they try to execute it. Why are the other expert bodies going to respect their decision. Why are those that run medical services going to agree to the cuts that they take. How is the NAS going to decide what % can be cut from medical services and what % is going to be cut from education etc. Having technocratic bodies aren't going to solve anything, it'll simply just shift the problem elsewhere.



Saji
Profile Joined December 2010
Netherlands262 Posts
August 12 2011 16:20 GMT
#227
On August 13 2011 01:11 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 00:59 Saji wrote:
I don't want to get too much derailed but is that really the root cause? What you are telling me sound more like a text book theory than what has happened in reality.


There's lots of complex reasons that would require ridiculous amounts of derailing. Plus, I'm not an economist. So I'll just direct you to here.

Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 00:59 Saji wrote:
Also i don't understand what you mean by "I'm pretty I had it covered with 'analyzing the situation' " could you elaborate?


What I mean is that it's pretty obvious that in researching the problem and proposing policy solutions, economists would address the root causes.


What do you base on that economist would truly address the root cause. (because either they don't want to see/recognize or they just aren't able to see it(if you look at what is done now right?)

Is it because you identified economist as "experts" (people that have studied for it) and therefore they should now what is right (being able to see the root cause and act upon it)?
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 16:23:33
August 12 2011 16:22 GMT
#228
On August 13 2011 01:15 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 01:08 Jibba wrote:
Those are not all the experts, and not necessarily the best experts either. My father is actually on a committee in the National Academy of Sciences, and in his opinion their meetings are almost entirely a waste of time. The group doesn't meet often enough to be productive (since, in order to be an expert, they have to focus on their own work first) and they come from such diverse backgrounds that they rarely come to an agreement on anything.


I don't disagree. However, I think it would not be unreasonable to assert that they would be more productive if they could actually write policy, especially given that they've been very capable of producing special reports in the past when asked.

Here's a scenario. Two of the top medical researchers (think Robert Gallo) work for competing pharmaceutical companies each racing to find and patent a cure for Parkinson's disease. The two prospective medicines will use a different method to address the issue. Now these are your two top experts on the field of degenerative brain diseases, but they have their research positions first. When the government is deciding how to appropriate funds for research in that area, who do they turn to? Both of them are competing, and any "objective" third party will not have enough expertise to make a useful decision (seeing as medical technology development is very secretive.)
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
paradox_
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada270 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 16:24:51
August 12 2011 16:22 GMT
#229
edit: Jibba made a better articulated and relevant point of what I'm trying to say.
mprs
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada2933 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 16:40:36
August 12 2011 16:27 GMT
#230
I think having pure politician/lawyer make up of government is absolutely awful.

You need business men, scientists, engineers, doctors, etc.

Here is how I feel:



Starts in the 2nd half of the video.
We talkin about PRACTICE
slytown
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Korea (South)1411 Posts
August 12 2011 16:28 GMT
#231
Nestea for President of the New World Order. All hail the zerg king.

Rather than have a technocracy, we just need to vote in politicans in a democracy who are critical thinkers and understand social progress. Politicans need to be less about politics, which has been such a dodgy profession in the US since the party system developed in the 1830s.
The best Flash meme ever: http://imgur.com/zquoK
xarthaz
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1704 Posts
August 12 2011 16:30 GMT
#232
On August 13 2011 01:16 NoobSkills wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 00:42 sunprince wrote:
On August 13 2011 00:29 bonifaceviii wrote:
Government hires technical consultants to look into issues and report back with reccommendations. Why not eliminate the middle-man and make the technical people the ones who make the decisions?

The problem is there would be no central decision-making body, just a bunch of cloistered, separate divisions that all administer their work from their own discipline's point of view with no over-arching (as awful and meaningless as this word is)... vision.

Unless you're saying that public administration "professionals" would be that body, in which case it's not qualitatively different than it is today.


It's not necessary to eliminate the middle-man entirely, as I avoided doing so in my proposed example. The main issue is that, currently, the government doesn't actually listen to the technical consultants.

On August 13 2011 00:41 NoobSkills wrote:
About 50% of the voters shouldn't be voting.
BUT having the top dogs from the private sector run things will lead to more corruption and stealing. It will always happen.


Technocrats =/= top dogs from the private sector. Mostly they're the top dogs from academia, if anything.


Best at their jobs, makes the most money, smartest = top dogs and from the private sector is where they would come from. Now, in principal if they were to truly look out for the country, it would be in better hands, engineers instead of government officials would be making the deals to build bridges and they might actually last some time, but I don't think it would be too long before they would become a new bread. Smart politicians would be dangerous


It doesnt matter where technocrats are from, whether they are best businessmen, engineers, whatever. The bottom line is it is impossible for them to apply their savvy business skills in government management, because government is fundamentally different from private enterprise in its management: Enterprise is management is guided by profit and loss, government management is guided by tax and spend through bureaucratic strictness.

All the business skill in the world will be completely useless in government, as there is no business to be made, only management of the bureaus.
Aah thats the stuff..
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 16:33:55
August 12 2011 16:33 GMT
#233
On August 13 2011 01:27 mprs wrote:
I think having pure political science/lawyer make up of government is absolutely awful.

You need business men, scientists, engineers, doctors, etc.

Just so people are clear, political science isn't the same thing as politics. Political science is an amalgamation of economics, sociology and a few other things. It's often a pre-law major and a lot of those people have their eyes set on politics but in itself political science is all about academia and research.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
leecH
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany385 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 16:54:02
August 12 2011 16:39 GMT
#234
I´d say we already have something similar. Lets say i worked in Pharmacy as a Scientists for some decades. I am a top dog and own my own company. If i´d be in charge of law making for example what would i do? I would benefit my own cause.

And this is a problem every society has. I think in the USA people being in charge of the Treasure are heavily involved in those banks who caused the bubble in 2008.
In Switzerland one of the highest politicians had legal issues because of his activities as a company holder.

In Germany some years ago there was a more or less public discussion about people in politics who have a certain background. Normally you have politicians who grew up as politicians (people from next door) but more and more people out of the economy started to get high jobs a politicians while still being chairmans at certain companies.

i think this is something you have to stop rather than enforce. of course it makes sense someone who worked at a certain branche would take charge in politics but chances are highger this person has a agenda for his own profit.

problem with most "systems" are that the human being itself has bad values. money, power and so on are the reasons why so much societies broke or systems failed.

i think the solution is not a change in systems like democracie or free markets etc.
we "just" need more transperancy and regulations.

for example if i am the head of the treasure in the USA (treasure i think its called, right?) i am obligated and controlled by certain instances that i am not able to make money besides my main job, i cant be chairman or have my own companie, i cant have stocks of some sort and so on...

if thats the case, yeah.. a Technocracy may work better. But every other system could as well.
Still i want politicians from "the people" because politics means "for the people" in latin i think. so it makes sense that someone "from the people" takes care "for the people"..

the arguement that people are stupid as fuck and don´t care about politics is a hole other topic. in switzerland for example alot of important decisions are made threw public opinion poll. this means everyone can vote and the direct votes are counted.. the higher ones wins. interesting fact is that switzerland was i think the only country where people could directly vote if they want to join the EU and was the only country who did not join the EU. Germans, French etc were forced into the EU if they wanted or not. Thats bullshit and has nothing to do with a democracy. Look where switzerland stands now. Their currency is worth too much. I bet the dollar/euro would love to have this problem.

now the point i try to make is this "direct voting" makes you want to involve much more into politics thus you have more interest and start talk with other people about certain things. in germany or USA all you can do is "vote someone who votes for you". in europe its sarting to be even worse with the EU Parliament. The only way to influence whats happening in the EU pariliament is to "vote someone who votes for someone who then votes for you". So why would you give a shit about politics if you vote counts shit and can change nothing?

so basicly i think Europe and USA are no democracies while Switzerland goes somewhat into the right direction :/ i know no ones gonna read my shit so id like to mention zerg and terran are imba and protoss needs a buff har har har.
mprs
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada2933 Posts
August 12 2011 16:40 GMT
#235
On August 13 2011 01:33 Jibba wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 01:27 mprs wrote:
I think having pure political science/lawyer make up of government is absolutely awful.

You need business men, scientists, engineers, doctors, etc.

Just so people are clear, political science isn't the same thing as politics. Political science is an amalgamation of economics, sociology and a few other things. It's often a pre-law major and a lot of those people have their eyes set on politics but in itself political science is all about academia and research.


Ah Okay, sorry for the confusion. Will edit out.
We talkin about PRACTICE
bonifaceviii
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada2890 Posts
August 12 2011 16:49 GMT
#236
Why are so many people saying economics is a science in this thread?
Stay a while and listen || http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=354018
Saji
Profile Joined December 2010
Netherlands262 Posts
August 12 2011 16:59 GMT
#237
On August 13 2011 01:49 bonifaceviii wrote:
Why are so many people saying economics is a science in this thread?


Good question!
Maybe they cant tell the differences between the 2
W2
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States1177 Posts
August 12 2011 17:08 GMT
#238
Nah this kind of thing wouldn't work. Only field I would recommend it is healthcare, because that is the industry where I believe it's okay to be socialist.
Hi
Jerubaal
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States7684 Posts
August 12 2011 17:25 GMT
#239
On August 13 2011 01:49 bonifaceviii wrote:
Why are so many people saying economics is a science in this thread?


You could call it a 'social science'. Technically, none of the things that we call natural science are in fact a 'science'. It's mostly Empiricism, which are metaphysically baseless 'techne'- arts aimed at creating something.

Without going into a long diatribe about how modernist your idea is with respect to an increasing reverence for the material over the metaphysical and a blissful ignorance of all philosophies coming before your own, your argument breaks down simply at the point you realize that most experts are oblivious to the grand scheme of things and will only lobby for what they think is best in their fields. You see this in fields where there is no 'result' to measure, like teaching, all the time.

Ultimately what you dream reflects is the belief that 'if only the experts were in charge' society would be awesome. What you don't realize is that there are no easy answers and your longing for a 'technocracy' is just an attempt to ignore wrestling with difficult questions. The idea that you could ignore politicial considerations is a pipe dream.



I'm not stupid, a marauder just shot my brain.
faruq
Profile Joined August 2011
United Arab Emirates116 Posts
August 12 2011 17:26 GMT
#240
I can't believe how a naive thread like this run 12 pages without anyone correcting the OP, and thereby thoroughly rendering any discussion moot.

Let me do it. Although both words end similarly, democracy and technocracy belong to different planes of discourse. Democracy is a political concept, which in its bare essence means the rule of the people/majority. Technocracy, although literally defined the rule of technocrats, or experts in different fields of knowledge, it is and has never been used as a political concept. Why? Simply because there is no need to. Technocracy is an understroke to any political system. It goes without saying. Technocracy is one of the tools of government, regardless of its form. In short, whether a state is a dictatorship, monarchy, democracy, communism, whatever, it operates in some sort of technocracy because there has to be experts in different fields of government that needs their expertise. The political system/politicians are only there, ideally, to represent the sovereignty and organize everything within the resources of the state, including time, money, priority, etc. No state, none at all, runs its business without experts. Not when shamans were a fashion, not even when dictators want to rule everything, and definitely not in a modern state.

tl;dr: There is no "either democracy or technocracy." Technocracy is a device in government, which is used in all forms of government. End of thread please. Hurts my head that TL allows this open.

PS
+ Show Spoiler +
After months of lurking in TL, I had to sign up just to respond to this.
Sablar
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Sweden880 Posts
August 12 2011 17:48 GMT
#241
On August 12 2011 23:44 mcc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 22:44 Sablar wrote:
On August 12 2011 22:23 sunprince wrote:
On August 12 2011 22:16 Sablar wrote:
I think many people seem regard scientists like some sort of rational, methodical robot that will carefully weigh the evidence and decide what is right.


I don't think anyone has suggested this. Rather, they are beter than average people at rational, methodical thought, but obviously not perfect.

On August 12 2011 22:16 Sablar wrote:
Scientists agree about nothing and there are always different camps within diciplines much like political parties.


False. Scientists agree about a great many things. When they do disagree, then that's something you don't have enough knowledge to act on anyway.

On August 12 2011 22:16 Sablar wrote:
Sociology and stuff regarding the whole society can't really be measured though, and there would never be a consensus or even close to it regarding what was right. This goes for economics, psychology etc as well.


False. Look up a sociology or economics journal sometime. Both fields are rooted in empirical science. I can't speak for psychology personally, but I would assume the same is true of it as well. And again, there is plenty of consensus in every field. Just about everything studied up to the undergraduate level is scientific consensus. It's enough to fill vast libraries and most of Wikipedia.

You seem to be working off of popular stereotypes about science, without any idea of how it actually works.

On August 12 2011 22:16 Sablar wrote:
Making sure to consult those who have knowledge in fields relevant to decisions is of course important, but that's how it's done today.


Yes, but then the politicians ignore or override those experts, which is how we get a lot of problems.


Look at pretty much any field of science and people will be disaegreeing. From the existence of some theorized physical matter to the motivations of humans or the most important reasons behind unempoyment. There are contradicting results and camps with different ideas and discussions that pretty much never get settled. There isn't a consensus, instead text books are filled the "the x perspective" as opposed to "the y perspective".

Something being "rooted in empircal sciences" doesn't mean that is somehow objective or that there is a right answer. It's far too complicated to know about all the factors in society in order to make accurate preductions about economics or about how crime will be effected by different changes in society. You just can't control such variables and because of that science can't give any clear answers. At best there is good line of reasoning behind whatever prediction is made. In the end that line of reasoning may or may not be better than that of an elected politicians, but that alone doesn't make it a better system. Also sociology is more qualitative than quantitative overall.

So don't say things are false when they aren't, and don't question my character because I was the only one who admitted to using generalizations about scientists.

They are disagreeing about some things and agreeing about others. Those things that are not agreed upon are considered as of yet unknown or not precise. 100 years ago there was disagreement about general hereditary mechanisms in biology, not anymore, now the disagreements are about small details of those mechanisms. Social sciences are the ones with all the "perspectives", but even those are getting better. And being rooted in empirical science actually means exactly that it is objective.

The point is not what might be. The point is that the expert has higher probability of making a right call and that is it. Also there is no necessity to eliminate democratic procedures in general, I think a hybrid system would be better. Basically people would vote on the matters of general policy as in those cases the science often has nothing definitive to say. For example people would vote on the level of social services they want and similar stuff and than technocrats would implement the details to the best of their knowledge. Also you can add even some democratic control over the technocrats, but it has to be well thought through so they do not become today's polititians.


I was arguing that science can't predict the consequences of many or most political decisions, and that there is much disagreement. I'm not saying that they don't agree on anything. I just think it's a shame when people expect science to be able to explain everything because it can't.

Rooted in empircal sciences doesn't mean that it is objective, it just means that the data is objective, not the interpretation of the data or the choice of which data was collected. It's perfectly possible for 2 scientists to gather data on the same phenomenon and reach completely different conclusions. The data in social sciences is used more as an argument because the data in itself doesn't really prove anything. Normally it´s used to back up an underlying and more complex theory that doesn't come as a necessity from the data collected (in the cases where quantitative analysis is even used).

I still prefer an expert on a subject over a politician when it comes to making a decision. Just not sure how such a thing could be implemented and who would decide which expert is the best suited for making such decisions. It's not like a democratic decision would be viable because people have no idea which expert on the same subject is the most qualified, and the alternative is some sort of academic peer election but I can't help but think that this would turn the scientific community just as bad as the political one.
Mecker
Profile Joined December 2010
Sweden219 Posts
August 12 2011 17:51 GMT
#242
On August 13 2011 02:25 Jerubaal wrote:
your argument breaks down simply at the point you realize that most experts are oblivious to the grand scheme of things and will only lobby for what they think is best in their fields. You see this in fields where there is no 'result' to measure, like teaching, all the time
.
What we want:
Mr Congressman: "Oh gee, economic disaster! What do Mr Economist?"
Mr Economist: "Well this,that, then and so."
Mr Congressman:"Splendid, make it so!"

What we have:
Mr Congressman: "Oh gee, economic disaster! How do I make sure to get re-elected?"
The public: "Derp, we want hurpa derpa now!"
Mr Congressman: "Hurpa derpa it is!"

I do think that Sunprince, mcc and I are in agreement that the politicians have to listen to the experts more. We haven't strictly argued for the type of model that would allow narrow fields of science to simply ignore the bigger picture and do what's "best for their own field of science.". Anyone who understands scientific progress also understands how silly that is since all emerging technologies either are dependant or will be dependant on other developing technologies.

Furthermore, there is always a result to measure - even in teaching. Even if this result is unmeasurable through practical difficulties, the experts could determine, through reasoning, what decision will most likely give a desirable result.

Ultimately what you dream reflects is the belief that 'if only the experts were in charge' society would be awesome. What you don't realize is that there are no easy answers and your longing for a 'technocracy' is just an attempt to ignore wrestling with difficult questions. The idea that you could ignore politicial considerations is a pipe dream.

Set the strawman abold!

Thorakh
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands1788 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 18:06:10
August 12 2011 18:02 GMT
#243
I have championed this since I first heard about it. Obviously a full technocracy would never work at this moment, a hybrid form would work best I think. 50% of the government chosen by the people, 50% smart people.

Democracy only works when everyone knows what they're voting on, and why. But no one does, with one or two exceptions. Not to mention the politicians themselves more often than not are complete dipshits themselves. Of course, the average voter won't even understand the idea of a technocracy, they will only see that their voting right got withdrawn and as such a hybrid system is needed, at least at first.

I feel that if we as a human race have to have any chance at making major progress, we'll have to stop random citizen #586,235 from being able to vote, and let matters of importance up to the people who know what they are doing.
Jerubaal
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States7684 Posts
August 12 2011 18:20 GMT
#244
On August 13 2011 02:51 Mecker wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 02:25 Jerubaal wrote:
your argument breaks down simply at the point you realize that most experts are oblivious to the grand scheme of things and will only lobby for what they think is best in their fields. You see this in fields where there is no 'result' to measure, like teaching, all the time
.
What we want:
Mr Congressman: "Oh gee, economic disaster! What do Mr Economist?"
Mr Economist: "Well this,that, then and so."
Mr Congressman:"Splendid, make it so!"

What we have:
Mr Congressman: "Oh gee, economic disaster! How do I make sure to get re-elected?"
The public: "Derp, we want hurpa derpa now!"
Mr Congressman: "Hurpa derpa it is!"

I do think that Sunprince, mcc and I are in agreement that the politicians have to listen to the experts more. We haven't strictly argued for the type of model that would allow narrow fields of science to simply ignore the bigger picture and do what's "best for their own field of science.". Anyone who understands scientific progress also understands how silly that is since all emerging technologies either are dependant or will be dependant on other developing technologies.

Furthermore, there is always a result to measure - even in teaching. Even if this result is unmeasurable through practical difficulties, the experts could determine, through reasoning, what decision will most likely give a desirable result.

Show nested quote +
Ultimately what you dream reflects is the belief that 'if only the experts were in charge' society would be awesome. What you don't realize is that there are no easy answers and your longing for a 'technocracy' is just an attempt to ignore wrestling with difficult questions. The idea that you could ignore politicial considerations is a pipe dream.

Set the strawman abold!



Your first example is extremely illuminating as it brings up a point that I missed- this fallacy that somehow 'science' is unanimous in its opinions and we mere mortals only need obey. Depending on what economic model or philosophy you subscribe to, the answer could be very different. Despite your rosy view of the 'experts', they are no less dependent on ideological considerations than politicians are the average person. You want to trade the ideological leaning of an aggregate for the leanings of a few.

More generally, an economist cannot make the social or political decisions for a society. He can balance the books, but cannot decide whether you should have higher taxes or lower spending, for instance.

My last paragraph discussed the phenomenology of this idea as informed by study and observation of political philosophy, particularly of the last 150 years. I know you kids these days think that you are not connected to anything in the past and invented everything by yourself, but that simply isn't so.

Faruq hits the essential point that empiricist techne is a different sort of knowledge from political knowledge and cannot replace each other. Unfortunately, this is a common problem in modern thought.
I'm not stupid, a marauder just shot my brain.
Nazeron
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada1046 Posts
August 12 2011 18:24 GMT
#245
I think it would be a very beneficial, it would reduce all the clutter and small talk. Government would decide on facts rather than who can argue the best, it would definitely help accelerate the advancement of science and technology. As for the economy it would help as well because science and technology expand markets because it sparks innovation.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Thorakh
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands1788 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 18:35:32
August 12 2011 18:25 GMT
#246
Your first example is extremely illuminating as it brings up a point that I missed- this fallacy that somehow 'science' is unanimous in its opinions and we mere mortals only need obey. Depending on what economic model or philosophy you subscribe to, the answer could be very different. Despite your rosy view of the 'experts', they are no less dependent on ideological considerations than politicians are the average person. You want to trade the ideological leaning of an aggregate for the leanings of a few.
However, don't you agree we'd rather have person A with an PhD and ideology B pulling the ropes than person X working at McDonalds with ideology Y?

More generally, an economist cannot make the social or political decisions for a society. He can balance the books, but cannot decide whether you should have higher taxes or lower spending, for instance.
We'd simply have to add some people with knowledge about social subjects to the council.
RumTalk
Profile Joined October 2010
Jamaica135 Posts
August 12 2011 18:25 GMT
#247
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperium

^ thats a good system , In seriousness though one supreme leader, who selects those most suited for the various jobs sounds to best to me
darkscream
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada2310 Posts
August 12 2011 18:28 GMT
#248
The problem with the Technocracy is that there's always that psycho, soulless scientist who will decide something horrible at the cost of countless human lives. In fact, Democracy is pretty much the only reason we aren't paying countless human lives every day for the decisions our leaders make at home.

Anyway, technically democracy is "two wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner", if you will. Now, a Technocratic Republic might work.... As long as the rights of the individual are protected.
domovoi
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1478 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 18:32:29
August 12 2011 18:30 GMT
#249
We already live in a Technocracy, and frankly one can't really argue against the overall results (there are of course always small inefficiencies that people play up into huge things, but don't matter too much in the long-term, e.g. the recent debt-ceiling retardedness). In the US, the Executive Branch is basically filled with technocrats, and they fill in all the details that Legislators are too stupid to think about. Check out the Code of Federal Regulations if you don't believe me. Also, conflicts are adjudicated by judges with the help of competing experts, another form of technocracy. In some cases, those judicial decisions override democratically-enacted legislation, though in truth the judiciary will never go too far from the mainstream.

In other words, Checks and Balances. Congress is the most attuned into public opinion, and in practice exercises the least power.

From what I hear, this is similar with a Parliamentary system, which has a dedicated civil service.
Thorakh
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands1788 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 18:39:08
August 12 2011 18:36 GMT
#250
On August 13 2011 03:28 darkscream wrote:
The problem with the Technocracy is that there's always that psycho, soulless scientist who will decide something horrible at the cost of countless human lives. In fact, Democracy is pretty much the only reason we aren't paying countless human lives every day for the decisions our leaders make at home.

Anyway, technically democracy is "two wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner", if you will. Now, a Technocratic Republic might work.... As long as the rights of the individual are protected.
Yeah, but obviously one psycho scientist won't get his legislations past the council.

Not to mention he would quickly lose his position.
Vore210
Profile Joined January 2011
Ireland256 Posts
August 12 2011 18:39 GMT
#251
On August 13 2011 03:28 darkscream wrote:
The problem with the Technocracy is that there's always that psycho, soulless scientist who will decide something horrible at the cost of countless human lives. In fact, Democracy is pretty much the only reason we aren't paying countless human lives every day for the decisions our leaders make at home.

Anyway, technically democracy is "two wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner", if you will. Now, a Technocratic Republic might work.... As long as the rights of the individual are protected.


Really? I'm seeing a few countries involved in wars at the moment that the population doesn't want, and they're democracies.

Given that the idea of a technocracy would be council based, not giving one person ultimate power (because anyone with an education knows that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely) and there would have to be an element of distance that we have in democracy where you cannot be simply bullied by your government.

I think the main idea people have of a technocracy is this: Current democracy, but replace the dim witted, self-serving career politicians with groups of societies brightest in particular fields to organise said fields. A meritocracy rather than a popularity contest, in short.
Light a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett
Mecker
Profile Joined December 2010
Sweden219 Posts
August 12 2011 18:58 GMT
#252
Your first example is extremely illuminating as it brings up a point that I missed- this fallacy that somehow 'science' is unanimous in its opinions and we mere mortals only need obey. Depending on what economic model or philosophy you subscribe to, the answer could be very different. Despite your rosy view of the 'experts', they are no less dependent on ideological considerations than politicians are the average person. You want to trade the ideological leaning of an aggregate for the leanings of a few.

This would be a problem if a single person was responsible for the decision. What we're discussing is having a group of experts discuss all the possibilities and come up with a solution that is most likely, based on current knowledge, the best one. What we're actually doing is simply eliminating ideology from the decision-making by forcing a discussion rather than accepting votes from a public that doesn't have a clue what they're voting for and whose only criteria for the decision is that the politician adheres to the same ideology as the people believe they want.

More generally, an economist cannot make the social or political decisions for a society. He can balance the books, but cannot decide whether you should have higher taxes or lower spending, for instance.

A group of scientists and experts definitely could through thorough research and debate. Can a politician, whose only merit is to be good at collecting votes from a mostly ignorant public, make the social or political decisions for a society?
Zzoram
Profile Joined February 2008
Canada7115 Posts
August 12 2011 19:00 GMT
#253
Technocracy would be the best if we could figure out a way to divide power between the different fields, and have people working within those fields elect their representatives.

Really, we should just change the current democratic system to encourage people who aren't career politicians, lawyers, or rich businessmen to enter politics. It's ridiculous that the people appointed to specialized positions often have no experience in those fields. Eg. the Defense Minister should be someone with military service, Health Minister should be a doctor or epidemiologist, Science minister should actually be a scientist, etc.

domovoi
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1478 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 19:05:14
August 12 2011 19:03 GMT
#254
What we're actually doing is simply eliminating ideology from the decision-making

It's quite naive to believe that scientists don't have their own ideology. Science cannot answer normative questions, and political decisions are often simply that. Moreover, what you ask is often just as important as the answer. You could say, "Scientists, give me a solution to solve global warming." The problem is that they are not qualified to tell you whether or not that solution would be calamitous to human well-being in an economic sense.
Thorakh
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands1788 Posts
August 12 2011 19:18 GMT
#255
On August 13 2011 04:03 domovoi wrote:
Show nested quote +
What we're actually doing is simply eliminating ideology from the decision-making

It's quite naive to believe that scientists don't have their own ideology. Science cannot answer normative questions, and political decisions are often simply that. Moreover, what you ask is often just as important as the answer. You could say, "Scientists, give me a solution to solve global warming." The problem is that they are not qualified to tell you whether or not that solution would be calamitous to human well-being in an economic sense.
And that's why there's a bunch of wellrespected economists on the council of course.
meadbert
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States681 Posts
August 12 2011 19:23 GMT
#256
On August 13 2011 04:18 Thorakh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 04:03 domovoi wrote:
What we're actually doing is simply eliminating ideology from the decision-making

It's quite naive to believe that scientists don't have their own ideology. Science cannot answer normative questions, and political decisions are often simply that. Moreover, what you ask is often just as important as the answer. You could say, "Scientists, give me a solution to solve global warming." The problem is that they are not qualified to tell you whether or not that solution would be calamitous to human well-being in an economic sense.
And that's why there's a bunch of wellrespected economists on the council of course.

Wellrespected by whom? Are we using a circular peer system where members of the ruling class are well respected by other members of the ruling class?
If we mean wellrespected by the people then just have those people express their respect through a vote and have a democracy just as we have now.

And scientist that appreciates empirical data must agree that Democracies have functioned far better than any other form of government yet tested.
Cyber_Cheese
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia3615 Posts
August 12 2011 19:25 GMT
#257
On August 13 2011 00:18 paradox_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 00:11 Saji wrote:
On August 13 2011 00:05 paradox_ wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:59 Effay wrote:
basically anything would be better than democracy


Live in a monarchy where you aren't in the favoured class and then say something like "basically anything would be better than a monarchy".
Live in a totalitarian state where you disagree with what the dictator wants and then repeat that.

At least in a democratic society you're free to say statements like this. I wonder if you've lived outside a democracy at all where you're not in the favoured class/group of people.



Democracy is not free. If you are different you will be an outcast of a democratic society if you don't conform to the norm you will have a hard time well me what is being free about that?

Being able to say something has absolutely nothing to do with being free


Nothing in this world is free. And if freedom of speech isn't something to do with being free, what would be? Anarchy?

Edit: Honestly everyone trying to make a point should attempt at making an argument that is articulated further than "democracy sux" & "we're not really free yo"


There is a limit to how free we can be before we impose on others freedoms, democracy is for the most part all about maxing that out
The moment you lose confidence in yourself, is the moment the world loses it's confidence in you.
Thorakh
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands1788 Posts
August 12 2011 19:38 GMT
#258
On August 13 2011 04:23 meadbert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 04:18 Thorakh wrote:
On August 13 2011 04:03 domovoi wrote:
What we're actually doing is simply eliminating ideology from the decision-making

It's quite naive to believe that scientists don't have their own ideology. Science cannot answer normative questions, and political decisions are often simply that. Moreover, what you ask is often just as important as the answer. You could say, "Scientists, give me a solution to solve global warming." The problem is that they are not qualified to tell you whether or not that solution would be calamitous to human well-being in an economic sense.
And that's why there's a bunch of wellrespected economists on the council of course.

Wellrespected by whom? Are we using a circular peer system where members of the ruling class are well respected by other members of the ruling class?
If we mean wellrespected by the people then just have those people express their respect through a vote and have a democracy just as we have now.

And scientist that appreciates empirical data must agree that Democracies have functioned far better than any other form of government yet tested.
Well respected by the scientific community of course...? The ruling class is the entire scientific community.
Gerbeeros
Profile Joined May 2010
101 Posts
August 12 2011 19:39 GMT
#259
Could these leading minds and scientist truly make decisions that great majority doesnt like even if it was something smarter to do than what average voter wants (by this i mean they would have to be afraid of revolution by that angry majority), it could become plain old politics and pleasing the crowd quite fast i think.

I suppose there could be ways to adjust to peoples needs and wants when it comes to a situation like this but i just think making average voter smarter is better solution.
Saji
Profile Joined December 2010
Netherlands262 Posts
August 12 2011 19:40 GMT
#260
On August 13 2011 04:25 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 00:18 paradox_ wrote:
On August 13 2011 00:11 Saji wrote:
On August 13 2011 00:05 paradox_ wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:59 Effay wrote:
basically anything would be better than democracy


Live in a monarchy where you aren't in the favoured class and then say something like "basically anything would be better than a monarchy".
Live in a totalitarian state where you disagree with what the dictator wants and then repeat that.

At least in a democratic society you're free to say statements like this. I wonder if you've lived outside a democracy at all where you're not in the favoured class/group of people.



Democracy is not free. If you are different you will be an outcast of a democratic society if you don't conform to the norm you will have a hard time well me what is being free about that?

Being able to say something has absolutely nothing to do with being free


Nothing in this world is free. And if freedom of speech isn't something to do with being free, what would be? Anarchy?

Edit: Honestly everyone trying to make a point should attempt at making an argument that is articulated further than "democracy sux" & "we're not really free yo"


There is a limit to how free we can be before we impose on others freedoms, democracy is for the most part all about maxing that out


If your are free you don't impose things (how can freedom be imposed on others). I don't know what you mean by freedom in that context? Or are you talking about privileges when you say freedom?
domovoi
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1478 Posts
August 12 2011 19:49 GMT
#261
On August 13 2011 04:18 Thorakh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 04:03 domovoi wrote:
What we're actually doing is simply eliminating ideology from the decision-making

It's quite naive to believe that scientists don't have their own ideology. Science cannot answer normative questions, and political decisions are often simply that. Moreover, what you ask is often just as important as the answer. You could say, "Scientists, give me a solution to solve global warming." The problem is that they are not qualified to tell you whether or not that solution would be calamitous to human well-being in an economic sense.
And that's why there's a bunch of wellrespected economists on the council of course.

Well, economists tend not to agree on most matters. And where they do, you end up with fairly market-friendly policies that I'm not sure scientists would be too enamored with.
paradox_
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada270 Posts
August 12 2011 19:52 GMT
#262
On August 13 2011 04:40 Saji wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 04:25 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
On August 13 2011 00:18 paradox_ wrote:
On August 13 2011 00:11 Saji wrote:
On August 13 2011 00:05 paradox_ wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:59 Effay wrote:
basically anything would be better than democracy


Live in a monarchy where you aren't in the favoured class and then say something like "basically anything would be better than a monarchy".
Live in a totalitarian state where you disagree with what the dictator wants and then repeat that.

At least in a democratic society you're free to say statements like this. I wonder if you've lived outside a democracy at all where you're not in the favoured class/group of people.



Democracy is not free. If you are different you will be an outcast of a democratic society if you don't conform to the norm you will have a hard time well me what is being free about that?

Being able to say something has absolutely nothing to do with being free


Nothing in this world is free. And if freedom of speech isn't something to do with being free, what would be? Anarchy?

Edit: Honestly everyone trying to make a point should attempt at making an argument that is articulated further than "democracy sux" & "we're not really free yo"


There is a limit to how free we can be before we impose on others freedoms, democracy is for the most part all about maxing that out


If your are free you don't impose things (how can freedom be imposed on others). I don't know what you mean by freedom in that context? Or are you talking about privileges when you say freedom?


The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins.

That boundary is what the government "imposes".
Thorakh
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands1788 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 19:55:24
August 12 2011 19:54 GMT
#263
On August 13 2011 04:49 domovoi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 04:18 Thorakh wrote:
On August 13 2011 04:03 domovoi wrote:
What we're actually doing is simply eliminating ideology from the decision-making

It's quite naive to believe that scientists don't have their own ideology. Science cannot answer normative questions, and political decisions are often simply that. Moreover, what you ask is often just as important as the answer. You could say, "Scientists, give me a solution to solve global warming." The problem is that they are not qualified to tell you whether or not that solution would be calamitous to human well-being in an economic sense.
And that's why there's a bunch of wellrespected economists on the council of course.

Well, economists tend not to agree on most matters. And where they do, you end up with fairly market-friendly policies that I'm not sure scientists would be too enamored with.
And that's where the vote comes in.

At least we'd have people with a clue disagreeing instead of a bunch of monkeys yelling stuff that they think will get them re-elected next term because the general public is about as smart as the backend of a goldfish.
sorrowptoss
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Canada1431 Posts
August 12 2011 19:58 GMT
#264
On August 12 2011 16:49 AustinCM wrote:
Do you think that a Technocracy could work anywhere in the world?

What is a Technocracy you ask?

A Technocracy is a form of government in which engineers, scientists, health professionals, and other technical experts are in control of decision making in their respective fields.

So do you think that it would be able to accelerate scientific discovery and advancement and how do you think it would affect the economy of the given country?\

I for one feel that this is exactly what we need and will end the OP with a quote from Winston Churchill.

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

How about this, I imagine a technocracy having about a dozen represenatives in each field and their decisions would need a scientific research paper sort of outlining why they made their decision, so people in those respective fields can peer review their decisions. I think that would be able to prevent any corruption.


This sounds too theoretical and utopic to be reality. It would never work. It's like a reminder of what Karl Marx hoped in the early 20th century and turned out to be a disastrous idea. And by the way, "I think that would be able to prevent any corruption" is a pretty ignorant statement because as long as there are humans there is corruption. Corruption is universal and has no way to be totally removed, ever.
DerNebel
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Denmark648 Posts
August 12 2011 20:01 GMT
#265
Yes, a technocracy COULD be better than a democracy. So could a dictatorship. It's all about who you put in charge.
graph1k
Profile Joined December 2010
United States97 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 20:04:22
August 12 2011 20:03 GMT
#266
My favorite quote by Winston Churchill, which sums up this whole topic.
"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."
Daray
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
6006 Posts
August 12 2011 20:27 GMT
#267
On August 12 2011 22:32 mopy wrote:
I think democracy can work you just have make sure you get a wide spectrum of people into parliment. In Australia most politicians have background law or business, we don't have enough politicians with backgrounds in science, engineering, health, education ect.


Finland has rednecks and ex-celebrities
Timestreamer
Profile Joined March 2011
Israel157 Posts
August 12 2011 20:30 GMT
#268
I think a technocracy could be a much more stable, efficient and safe then a regular democracy. Right now, we have a bunch of really adequate speakers and lobbyists running entire nations, using statistics(a tool which they don't fully understand) and common sense("The problem with common sense is that the common human being is an idiot!") to rule over our lives.
Why? Because we let them. There needs to be a better reason for why a specific person is chosen to make the right decisions.

Moreover, a political power driven through scientific research alone can't be so easily persuaded one way or another, by populist demands, without them having a real reason to.

"I do not know what the people want - but I do know what the people need" - David Ben Gurion.

Right now we are focusing our resources too much on pleasing the general public.
keeblur
Profile Joined April 2010
United States826 Posts
August 12 2011 20:30 GMT
#269
Couldn't be any worse than now.
Isn't it ironic and selfish to say that God made man in his image, when God was made in man's image?
brum
Profile Joined January 2011
Hungary187 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 03:28:16
August 12 2011 20:32 GMT
#270
On August 12 2011 17:06 Krogzor Korea(North). wrote:
What an absurd idea.

I see what you did there. Or do i?
RodrigoX
Profile Joined November 2009
United States645 Posts
August 12 2011 20:34 GMT
#271
I Think this is a fantastic "idea" but I dont really agree with the idea of the people wanting to make as many scientific advancements possible in charge. While I think that in the end it could prove to be great, But I dont see why if the worlds scientists were in charge of everything, they wouldnt abuse their power to pick the handcuffs of ethics.

Basically what I see, is that we would have a period of terrible things happening, making life better once the technocracy was thrown out because they wouldnt stop abusing power.
We were all raised on televion that made us believe we'd all be Millionairs, Movie gods, and Rockstars..... But we won't.... We are slowly learning that fact. And we are very, very pissed off.
turdburgler
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
England6749 Posts
August 12 2011 20:35 GMT
#272
On August 13 2011 04:49 domovoi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 04:18 Thorakh wrote:
On August 13 2011 04:03 domovoi wrote:
What we're actually doing is simply eliminating ideology from the decision-making

It's quite naive to believe that scientists don't have their own ideology. Science cannot answer normative questions, and political decisions are often simply that. Moreover, what you ask is often just as important as the answer. You could say, "Scientists, give me a solution to solve global warming." The problem is that they are not qualified to tell you whether or not that solution would be calamitous to human well-being in an economic sense.
And that's why there's a bunch of wellrespected economists on the council of course.

Well, economists tend not to agree on most matters. And where they do, you end up with fairly market-friendly policies that I'm not sure scientists would be too enamored with.



they cant possibly be any less qualified than a bunch of people who can shout JOBS and EDUCATION the loudest though can they.
julianto
Profile Joined December 2010
2292 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 20:42:17
August 12 2011 20:38 GMT
#273
How would the government work coherently if every domain is looking out for its best interest? Does the distributor of money and power have to be as equally competent as all of the divisions it rules over?
Although I must admit, I liked the sound of this utopian idea when I first read about it. It annoys me to see religious creationists trying to intrude into the biology classroom.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Timestreamer
Profile Joined March 2011
Israel157 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 20:45:13
August 12 2011 20:43 GMT
#274
On August 13 2011 05:34 RodrigoX wrote:
I Think this is a fantastic "idea" but I dont really agree with the idea of the people wanting to make as many scientific advancements possible in charge. While I think that in the end it could prove to be great, But I dont see why if the worlds scientists were in charge of everything, they wouldnt abuse their power to pick the handcuffs of ethics.

Basically what I see, is that we would have a period of terrible things happening, making life better once the technocracy was thrown out because they wouldnt stop abusing power.

Well psychology and social sciences are still very much respected fields, so ethics wouldn't die out so quickly because it will actually be a part of the "government".
But yes, I'd believe that once you get to a true technocracy, some ideas that now days seem to be ethically questionable will no longer be debated. For example eugenics - will you castrate people with a high chance of passing on a genetic disorder and such.
It's kinda disturbing to think about this at first, but then again, if the cure for Alzheimer and cancer is an inch over the line - will you not cross it?
"Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." - Thomas Stearns Eliot
Daray
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
6006 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 20:46:50
August 12 2011 20:45 GMT
#275
On August 13 2011 05:38 julianto wrote:
How would the government work coherently if every domain is looking out for its best interest? Does the distributor of money and power have to be as equally competent as all of the divisions it rules over?
Although I must admit, I liked the sound of this utopian idea when I first read about it. It annoys me to see religious creationists trying to intrude into the biology classroom.


I agree this would be fantastic if people weren't greedy by nature but i don't think it would be worse than it is now.
Archontas
Profile Joined September 2010
United States319 Posts
August 12 2011 20:47 GMT
#276
Concentrating any power in the hands of an appointed few, where they have no obligation to explain themselves or have any concerns about being replaced or even questioned, just opens the door further to making decisions for financial or social reasons rather than the 'right' ones. A bunch of really smart economists with no oversight invented the financial product of "derivatives" and melted the world's credit system. A lot of really smart doctors classified homosexuality as a mental illness until about 40 years ago. Really smart engineers launched a shuttle which exploded 73 seconds later. Your utopia is a fantasy.

Yes, in an ideal world, decisions would be made by professionals with complete expertise in their field and total objectivity, but absolutely no political, career, or popular opinion concerns. Also, in an ideal world, everyone would have equal access to food, clean water, and medical care, research scientists would be treated like rock stars, beer would be free, and nice guys would get laid occasionally. We do not live in an ideal world.
If you ban me, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.
Avi-
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany58 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 21:08:25
August 12 2011 21:02 GMT
#277
On August 13 2011 05:47 Archontas wrote:
Concentrating any power in the hands of an appointed few, where they have no obligation to explain themselves or have any concerns about being replaced or even questioned, just opens the door further to making decisions for financial or social reasons rather than the 'right' ones. A bunch of really smart economists with no oversight invented the financial product of "derivatives" and melted the world's credit system. A lot of really smart doctors classified homosexuality as a mental illness until about 40 years ago. Really smart engineers launched a shuttle which exploded 73 seconds later. Your utopia is a fantasy.

Yes, in an ideal world, decisions would be made by professionals with complete expertise in their field and total objectivity, but absolutely no political, career, or popular opinion concerns. Also, in an ideal world, everyone would have equal access to food, clean water, and medical care, research scientists would be treated like rock stars, beer would be free, and nice guys would get laid occasionally. We do not live in an ideal world.

Ehm, i dont get you. Technocracy does not mean that people in power do not have concerns about being replaced. China is in fact a kind of technocracy. Their parliament is full of engineers and economists, but not professional politicians and they are all quite replaceable. And they did indeed quite well during last economical crisis. What is your point about very good economists and engineers who failed in their jobs? Do you implement that worse specialists with full control by public would be doing better?
Archontas
Profile Joined September 2010
United States319 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-18 08:01:52
August 12 2011 21:26 GMT
#278
My point is pretty simple, that political and social concerns which lead to bad decisions are still there under a technocracy, it isn't some magical society. And if they are, in fact, replaceable, then they will be inclined to make decisions based on what those who appoint them want them to say, not necessarily what is best. The hope in a democracy is that ultimately being accountable to the public as a whole will mean that those who make decisions will always have to prioritize the 'right' call first.

Yes, public opinion can also support lots of bad policy, and its far from ideal as well. But you are correct, I'm saying that being answerable to the public really is better in the long term.
If you ban me, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 21:46:32
August 12 2011 21:43 GMT
#279
On August 13 2011 01:16 NoobSkills wrote:
Best at their jobs, makes the most money, smartest = top dogs and from the private sector is where they would come from.


No one who in favor of technocracy argues that merit should be determine by income. You're either woefully misinformed or strawmanning.

On August 13 2011 01:18 paradox_ wrote:
You're right, my economic theory is rather weak since my field of study is engineering but the point still stands. There are still going to be different schools of thought, maybe much more subtle but the differences are you said exist. There is no guarantee that those on the committee are more subjective to make decisions on public policy and will even come to a compromise faster than the senate. What you're proposing is basically another senate just on the matter of economics. You think economists are somehow going to show different human behaviour in that their "mini senate" isn't going to breakdown into the gong show that's occurring right now?


To be frank, yes. Congress is driven primarily by political incentives, while technocrats are primarily driven by their knowledge. Plenty of research supports both of these.

On August 13 2011 01:18 paradox_ wrote:
You make it sound as if senators simply make up policy while on the toilet. They have experts and advisers on the matter at hand when they write policy. The senate is simply the forum to present ideas before the people elected make a decision on the value of the idea.


You're forgiven because you're an engineer, but that's not how Congress works. Experts make policy suggestions, sure, but Congress rarely listens. Congress is also not the forum to debate the value of an idea, but a forum for political jockeying and exchanging favors in order to benefit constituents.

On August 13 2011 01:18 paradox_ wrote:
What you're saying is to simply move this forum to a more specialized location (NAS). Now what happens when the decisions made by this specialized body affects healthcare, because it will. Let's even assume they somehow manage to agree on a policy and then they try to execute it. Why are the other expert bodies going to respect their decision. Why are those that run medical services going to agree to the cuts that they take. How is the NAS going to decide what % can be cut from medical services and what % is going to be cut from education etc. Having technocratic bodies aren't going to solve anything, it'll simply just shift the problem elsewhere.


Economists decide what % will be cut from education and what % will be cut from medical services, using the input provided by education and medical experts.

The difference between this and Congressmen making decisions is obviously that you have experts making decisions, rather than politicians, which leads to decisions that are more knowledge-driven and less politics-driven. That's a good way to shift the problem.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 21:48:39
August 12 2011 21:46 GMT
#280
On August 13 2011 01:20 Saji wrote:
What do you base on that economist would truly address the root cause. (because either they don't want to see/recognize or they just aren't able to see it(if you look at what is done now right?)


Economists are well aware of what the problems are. It's politicians who won't agree to fix them, because doing so is politically unpopular.

On August 13 2011 01:20 Saji wrote:
Is it because you identified economist as "experts" (people that have studied for it) and therefore they should now what is right (being able to see the root cause and act upon it)?


Obviously economists are the ones best suited to determining problems with national debt. We in fact use them to determine the problem right now; government simply does not listen to them unless it's convenient.

On August 13 2011 01:22 Jibba wrote:
Here's a scenario. Two of the top medical researchers (think Robert Gallo) work for competing pharmaceutical companies each racing to find and patent a cure for Parkinson's disease. The two prospective medicines will use a different method to address the issue. Now these are your two top experts on the field of degenerative brain diseases, but they have their research positions first. When the government is deciding how to appropriate funds for research in that area, who do they turn to? Both of them are competing, and any "objective" third party will not have enough expertise to make a useful decision (seeing as medical technology development is very secretive.)


If they're competing for government funding, then it would behoove them to disclose enough information about their research that other medical researchers and economists could evaluate the worthiness of their research.
domovoi
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1478 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 22:30:40
August 12 2011 22:28 GMT
#281
On August 13 2011 04:54 Thorakh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 04:49 domovoi wrote:
On August 13 2011 04:18 Thorakh wrote:
On August 13 2011 04:03 domovoi wrote:
What we're actually doing is simply eliminating ideology from the decision-making

It's quite naive to believe that scientists don't have their own ideology. Science cannot answer normative questions, and political decisions are often simply that. Moreover, what you ask is often just as important as the answer. You could say, "Scientists, give me a solution to solve global warming." The problem is that they are not qualified to tell you whether or not that solution would be calamitous to human well-being in an economic sense.
And that's why there's a bunch of wellrespected economists on the council of course.

Well, economists tend not to agree on most matters. And where they do, you end up with fairly market-friendly policies that I'm not sure scientists would be too enamored with.
And that's where the vote comes in.

At least we'd have people with a clue disagreeing instead of a bunch of monkeys yelling stuff that they think will get them re-elected next term because the general public is about as smart as the backend of a goldfish.

Meh, like I said earlier, we already have a Technocracy, and it runs fairly well, never mind the few instances where the monkeys make some noise. Economists run the Fed and Treasury, the latter which has Obama's ear. Most economic policies of any consequence flow from them. It's generally accepted that the monetary authority is the last mover.

Ultimately, though, it's not possible to do away with democracy completely. Laypeople outnumber technocrats by a wide margin.
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25551 Posts
August 12 2011 22:50 GMT
#282
On August 13 2011 07:28 domovoi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 04:54 Thorakh wrote:
On August 13 2011 04:49 domovoi wrote:
On August 13 2011 04:18 Thorakh wrote:
On August 13 2011 04:03 domovoi wrote:
What we're actually doing is simply eliminating ideology from the decision-making

It's quite naive to believe that scientists don't have their own ideology. Science cannot answer normative questions, and political decisions are often simply that. Moreover, what you ask is often just as important as the answer. You could say, "Scientists, give me a solution to solve global warming." The problem is that they are not qualified to tell you whether or not that solution would be calamitous to human well-being in an economic sense.
And that's why there's a bunch of wellrespected economists on the council of course.

Well, economists tend not to agree on most matters. And where they do, you end up with fairly market-friendly policies that I'm not sure scientists would be too enamored with.
And that's where the vote comes in.

At least we'd have people with a clue disagreeing instead of a bunch of monkeys yelling stuff that they think will get them re-elected next term because the general public is about as smart as the backend of a goldfish.

Meh, like I said earlier, we already have a Technocracy, and it runs fairly well, never mind the few instances where the monkeys make some noise. Economists run the Fed and Treasury, the latter which has Obama's ear. Most economic policies of any consequence flow from them. It's generally accepted that the monetary authority is the last mover.

Ultimately, though, it's not possible to do away with democracy completely. Laypeople outnumber technocrats by a wide margin.


Domovois hits the hammer on the head right here. A lot of the governmental structure (In the US, at least) is controlled and administrated by non-elected officials, from policemen to the treasure to NASA. Most politicians don't actually understand enough to censure the Fed, and given that it's shielded from congress anyways, it's not a huge issue.
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 23:09:37
August 12 2011 23:08 GMT
#283
On August 13 2011 07:50 Blazinghand wrote:
Domovois hits the hammer on the head right here. A lot of the governmental structure (In the US, at least) is controlled and administrated by non-elected officials, from policemen to the treasure to NASA. Most politicians don't actually understand enough to censure the Fed, and given that it's shielded from congress anyways, it's not a huge issue.


It's true that the Fed is an example of a technocratic institution within the government, but they're an exception, not a rule. The judicial system can be considered another example, as it's effectively a technocratic institution of legal experts.

However, both are very constrained and most institutions have much less independent power and are much less insulated from political pressure. The whole idea behind a movement towards technocracy is that we want more parts of the government to be run like the Fed or the judicial system, rather than the status quo of Congress ignoring technical experts on most issues when it becomes convenient to do so.
Bartimaeus
Profile Joined January 2011
United States67 Posts
August 12 2011 23:14 GMT
#284
I believe the system could work with a very small amount of kinks/corruption, but with anything new the main problem is getting the people to adopt it. Many countries are democracies - I don't think a majority of the people would be willing to give up their power of voting even if it would be for the best.
Archontas
Profile Joined September 2010
United States319 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 23:20:59
August 12 2011 23:19 GMT
#285
On August 13 2011 08:08 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 07:50 Blazinghand wrote:
Domovois hits the hammer on the head right here. A lot of the governmental structure (In the US, at least) is controlled and administrated by non-elected officials, from policemen to the treasure to NASA. Most politicians don't actually understand enough to censure the Fed, and given that it's shielded from congress anyways, it's not a huge issue.


It's true that the Fed is an example of a technocratic institution within the government, but they're an exception, not a rule. The judicial system can be considered another example, as it's effectively a technocratic institution of legal experts.

However, both are very constrained and most institutions have much less independent power and are much less insulated from political pressure. The whole idea behind a movement towards technocracy is that we want more parts of the government to be run like the Fed or the judicial system, rather than the status quo of Congress ignoring technical experts on most issues when it becomes convenient to do so.


I can't understand this. Politicians rarely ignore technical advice. They just shop for the advice they want: whatever opinion you need, you can find an "expert" who will say it. Then instead of proclaiming "I am proceeding against popular opinion", it becomes "I am on this side of the debate." And I don't see a technocracy solving this, because of the examples I mentioned earlier: professionals and experts are not immune to ignoring the facts that don't suit them or taking a political stance.

While democracy is painful sometimes, its the only way that works. Progression in technical fields often occur along with advances in the understanding and education of the public, and I don't think that's a coincidence. A "leave it to the experts" stance never ends well. As Heinlein said, specialization is for insects. Yes, practical implementation says there will always be appointments, but if a position of power is appointed, it should be appointed by someone who is voted for by citizens.
If you ban me, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 23:42:14
August 12 2011 23:36 GMT
#286
On August 13 2011 08:19 Archontas wrote:
I can't understand this. Politicians rarely ignore technical advice. They just shop for the advice they want: whatever opinion you need, you can find an "expert" who will say it. Then instead of proclaiming "I am proceeding against popular opinion", it becomes "I am on this side of the debate." And I don't see a technocracy solving this, because of the examples I mentioned earlier: professionals and experts are not immune to ignoring the facts that don't suit them or taking a political stance.


What you're ignoring is that politicians find 'experts' who aren't really experts at all. For example, conservatives in the United States cite cranks to argue there's no such thing as global climate change, when 99% of scientists agree it's a fact. Likewise, you can find 'experts' who will disagree with evolution, but the overwhelming majority of real scientists will tell you otherwise.

A real technocracy gives minimal weight to fringe theories and relies on scientific consensus. Only in a democracy like ours do cranks have so much influence, because voters are too stupid to know the difference between empirical science and junk/corporate-influenced/religious pseudoscience.
domovoi
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1478 Posts
August 12 2011 23:36 GMT
#287
On August 13 2011 08:08 sunprince wrote:

It's true that the Fed is an example of a technocratic institution within the government, but they're an exception, not a rule. The judicial system can be considered another example, as it's effectively a technocratic institution of legal experts.

Pretty much the entirety of the Executive branch is run by technocrats. And Congress has delegated a lot of its power to Executive branch agencies because they know it's too complicated to hash out the details of any particular legal regime. Yes, there is political pressure in the form of people voting for the CEO of the Executive branch, but there's definitely a big buffer.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
August 12 2011 23:39 GMT
#288
On August 13 2011 08:36 domovoi wrote:
Pretty much the entirety of the Executive branch is run by technocrats. And Congress has delegated a lot of its power to Executive branch agencies because they know it's too complicated to hash out the details of any particular legal regime. Yes, there is political pressure in the form of people voting for the CEO of the Executive branch, but there's definitely a big buffer.


They don't determine policy though (aside from sometimes having advising the policymaking process), they merely implement it.

That's the key difference between a more technocratic government and a more democratic government that uses technocrats to run their bureaucracies.
Archontas
Profile Joined September 2010
United States319 Posts
August 12 2011 23:42 GMT
#289
On August 13 2011 08:36 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 08:19 Archontas wrote:
I can't understand this. Politicians rarely ignore technical advice. They just shop for the advice they want: whatever opinion you need, you can find an "expert" who will say it. Then instead of proclaiming "I am proceeding against popular opinion", it becomes "I am on this side of the debate." And I don't see a technocracy solving this, because of the examples I mentioned earlier: professionals and experts are not immune to ignoring the facts that don't suit them or taking a political stance.


What you're ignoring is that politicians find 'experts' who aren't really experts at all. For example, conservatives in the United States cite cranks to argue there's no such thing as global climate change, when 99% of scientists agree it's a fact. Likewise, you can find 'experts' who will disagree with evolution, but the overwhelming majority of real scientists will tell you otherwise.

A real technocracy gives minimal weight to fring theories and relies on scientific consensus. Only in a democracy like ours do cranks have so much influence, because voters are too stupid to know the difference.


Those two examples came to mind as I was typing, actually And I agree with you completely, their "experts" aren't really experts. But who decides what constitutes an expert? Someone has to make that call. Its easy to say "other professionals in that field" but then, what level of education constitutes a professional?

Eventually, it comes down what to the public at large believes - I don't believe there is any getting away from that. And thus educating the public should be our goal, not finding a system which compensates for stupid people.
If you ban me, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
August 12 2011 23:47 GMT
#290
On August 13 2011 08:42 Archontas wrote:
Those two examples came to mind as I was typing, actually And I agree with you completely, their "experts" aren't really experts. But who decides what constitutes an expert? Someone has to make that call. Its easy to say "other professionals in that field" but then, what level of education constitutes a professional?


Generally, it's determined by being accepted by other experts, which in the case of scientists, generally takes the form of having a doctorate and publishing papers in peer-reviewed journals. In a technocracy, you need a majority of other experts to agree with you, for your expertise to have any weight. Therefore, someone who wants to argue that evolution is an incorrect theory better have a whole lot of evidence instead of a few logical fallacies.

On August 13 2011 08:42 Archontas wrote:Eventually, it comes down what to the public at large believes - I don't believe there is any getting away from that. And thus educating the public should be our goal, not finding a system which compensates for stupid people.


Educating the public is a key goal, absolutely.

But even a well-educated public isn't equipped to make technical decisions on issues as monetary policy. I'd rather have well-educated citizens voting on monetary policy than uneducated citizens, but it's probably still better left to economists.
Archontas
Profile Joined September 2010
United States319 Posts
August 12 2011 23:54 GMT
#291
On August 13 2011 08:47 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 08:42 Archontas wrote:
Those two examples came to mind as I was typing, actually And I agree with you completely, their "experts" aren't really experts. But who decides what constitutes an expert? Someone has to make that call. Its easy to say "other professionals in that field" but then, what level of education constitutes a professional?


Generally, it's determined by being accepted by other experts, which in the case of scientists, generally takes the form of having a doctorate and publishing papers in peer-reviewed journals. In a technocracy, you need a majority of other experts to agree with you, for your expertise to have any weight. Therefore, someone who wants to argue that evolution is an incorrect theory better have a whole lot of evidence instead of a few logical fallacies.

Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 08:42 Archontas wrote:Eventually, it comes down what to the public at large believes - I don't believe there is any getting away from that. And thus educating the public should be our goal, not finding a system which compensates for stupid people.


Educating the public is a key goal, absolutely.

But even a well-educated public isn't equipped to make technical decisions on issues as monetary policy. I'd rather have well-educated citizens voting on monetary policy than uneducated citizens, but it's probably still better left to economists.


Okay then, looks like we don't disagree on much then. I absolutely agree that those who are better informed should be closer to the actual decision, and some sort of de facto technocracy for aspects of policy are inevitable and already in place for developed democracies.
If you ban me, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.
gentile
Profile Joined August 2007
Switzerland594 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 00:08:45
August 13 2011 00:07 GMT
#292
do I want to trust so called experts?..why would I trust people with knowledge so incomplete?..anyway here in switzerland our democracy is almost a system where only the people vote who actually have, or think they have, an idea on whatever specific topic is to vote for. Which make it somewhat work in the long run. I prefer a democracy over a technocracy any day, simple cause the decisions made bascially have no large impact at all when you think further then 5-10 years. The damage is therefor reduced and the only real problem that remains is the fact that you became a politician in the first place cause you are not suited, not able to do anything else, usless people they are..Meaning the people in charge are generally handicapped by having simply not enough brainpower...what would be best is plato's idea of a philosopher state, for the knowledge of a true philosopher is as complete as it can be. Yes I dislike the so called modern science and most of the politicians who abuse their power to make a lot of money, and yeah I do study philosophy )
xarthaz
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1704 Posts
August 13 2011 00:14 GMT
#293
On August 13 2011 08:47 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 08:42 Archontas wrote:
Those two examples came to mind as I was typing, actually And I agree with you completely, their "experts" aren't really experts. But who decides what constitutes an expert? Someone has to make that call. Its easy to say "other professionals in that field" but then, what level of education constitutes a professional?


Generally, it's determined by being accepted by other experts, which in the case of scientists, generally takes the form of having a doctorate and publishing papers in peer-reviewed journals. In a technocracy, you need a majority of other experts to agree with you, for your expertise to have any weight. Therefore, someone who wants to argue that evolution is an incorrect theory better have a whole lot of evidence instead of a few logical fallacies.

Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 08:42 Archontas wrote:Eventually, it comes down what to the public at large believes - I don't believe there is any getting away from that. And thus educating the public should be our goal, not finding a system which compensates for stupid people.


Educating the public is a key goal, absolutely.

But even a well-educated public isn't equipped to make technical decisions on issues as monetary policy. I'd rather have well-educated citizens voting on monetary policy than uneducated citizens, but it's probably still better left to economists.

Better? The monetary policy of basically the entire western world has been a gigantic disaster for the last few decades, creating one bubble after another. It is hard to fail more than what has happened.
Aah thats the stuff..
domovoi
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1478 Posts
August 13 2011 00:22 GMT
#294
On August 13 2011 08:39 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 08:36 domovoi wrote:
Pretty much the entirety of the Executive branch is run by technocrats. And Congress has delegated a lot of its power to Executive branch agencies because they know it's too complicated to hash out the details of any particular legal regime. Yes, there is political pressure in the form of people voting for the CEO of the Executive branch, but there's definitely a big buffer.


They don't determine policy though (aside from sometimes having advising the policymaking process), they merely implement it.

That's the key difference between a more technocratic government and a more democratic government that uses technocrats to run their bureaucracies.

Don't believe everything you learn in High School civics. Sure, theoretically, the Legislature legislates and the Executive executes, but in reality, the Executive probably determines policy more than the Legislature. For example, the FCPA says don't bribe foreign officials, but it's really left to the courts and DOJ to (a) determine what it means to bribe an official, (b) decide whether or not to loosely or tightly enforce the statute (even though the FCPA is pretty old, it's only in the past 4-5 years that enforcement has become a major concern for companies) and (c) determine what measures a company should take to ensure compliance. All of those impact policy more than the text of the FCPA.

It's even more like this for anti-trust policy, since the Sherman and Clayton Acts are so old, vague and unhelpful. It's been the courts, DOJ and the FTC that pretty much determine all anti-trust compliance and enforcement. And they heavily rely on economics.

Or how about patents. Congress has some say in procedure and broad subject areas, but what ends up being patented is mostly the say of the Patent Office and the courts.
Dragom
Profile Joined December 2010
194 Posts
August 13 2011 00:24 GMT
#295
Did you know that some of the same people who caused the Ecoonomic crisis in the US were University proffessors? *cough*Ben Bernanke*cough**cough*
"The second thing to go is your memory...ergh, I can't remember what the first thing is..."
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 01:02:51
August 13 2011 00:47 GMT
#296
On August 13 2011 09:14 xarthaz wrote:
Better? The monetary policy of basically the entire western world has been a gigantic disaster for the last few decades, creating one bubble after another. It is hard to fail more than what has happened.


Please substantiate your borderline conspiracy theory claims with some actual evidence please.

On August 13 2011 09:22 domovoi wrote:
Don't believe everything you learn in High School civics.Sure, theoretically, the Legislature legislates and the Executive executes, but in reality, the Executive probably determines policy more than the Legislature. For example, the FCPA says don't bribe foreign officials, but it's really left to the courts and DOJ to (a) determine what it means to bribe an official, (b) decide whether or not to loosely or tightly enforce the statute (even though the FCPA is pretty old, it's only in the past 4-5 years that enforcement has become a major concern for companies) and (c) determine what measures a company should take to ensure compliance. All of those impact policy more than the text of the FCPA.


In the interests of full disclosure, you're talking to a political science graduate here. The implementation of policy has some effect on policy, but ultimately bureaucracies are constrained by the letter of the law, if not the spirit. Regardless, should bureaucracies attempt to determine policy in controvention to Congressional interests it's very easy to pursue legal/legislative channels to stop it, should it become a problem.

Most political scientists would agree that while executive bureaucracies have great power (to a degree that might surprise the average American), they still bow to Congress when the latter asserts itself. Further, they try to constrain themselves so as not to provoke such Congressional power, especially since Congress determines their funding. In other words, Congress is like the employer and the bureaucracies are like fairly independent high-level employees.

On August 13 2011 09:22 domovoi wrote:
It's even more like this for anti-trust policy, since the Sherman and Clayton Acts are so old, vague and unhelpful. It's been the courts, DOJ and the FTC that pretty much determine all anti-trust compliance and enforcement. And they heavily rely on economics.


Ultimately, it's still the choice of Congress to give them such free reign, and they do obey when Congress chooses to reign them under the threat or implementation of new legislation and/or funding cuts.
LegendaryZ
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1583 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 01:05:33
August 13 2011 01:01 GMT
#297
The whole idea of having educated minorities making opinions despite the views of the uneducated majority for the overall benefit of the nation isn't really a novel one and I think that there's a really good reason that we've historically moved away from that. People have a desire to have their voices heard in spite of what many people may view as their collective ignorance.

I think politicians represent people to a much greater degree than most would really like to admit. They are put in their positions not because of any expertise, but rather due to their ability to appeal to the public and unite people behind certain policies, both favorable and unfavorable. Their lack of expertise in any given matter is compensated for by their various advisers and use of hearings and committees. Their greatest trait, however, is really their ultimate flaw which is what the OP effectively calls them out for. Much like the uninformed public they represent, they themselves are often ill informed and have to make decisions about who to trust. Much like the average person, these decisions are partially guided by cold, hard logic and partially guided by their own moral principles.

My belief is that it's this balance between logic and moral integrity that makes democracy as successful as it is. While a practical technocracy doesn't necessarily preclude adherence to moral values, as an ideal, it cannot and that's really where it fails. The thing is that human beings are creatures that are always struggling to maintain a balance between logic and morality and it's only natural that their governments (assuming that the governments represent their people) represent the same conflict. In the face of the debacle known as modern politics, it really seems romantic to fall back on a system where there seems to be a single correct path laid out before you and I'm not going to argue whether it would actually be better or worse in terms of results because I don't know. All I'll say is that there's a big part of human experience that isn't dictated by science or technical expertise. Our values of freedom, individual rights, justice don't necessarily stem from any real logical basis (in fact logic would often seem to contradict our claim of such rights or values) and I don't think anyone here would doubt the importance of these values or be willing to let them go just because some experts could agree on a good reason for why they are outdated beliefs that don't match our social realities.

I may have gone off quite a bit with my post, but it seems that people are thinking a lot about things like climate change, but not really thinking so much about things such as privacy. Just to give my own quick examples, could you come up with a purely logical reason (not based at all on moral values) for the government NOT to be allowed to tap our phones or be able to reference on internet browsing history on demand for the purposes of preserving public safety? There's a lot of in justice that governments can get away with and DO get away with in the name of serving the greater good so I suppose I'm just very skeptical about the entire idea of any form of government where that would really overly emphasize that aspect of decision making.

Edit: Also, as far as science goes, there really aren't a whole lot of issues out there where there's a 99% scientific consensus about any given subject that would matter from a policy standpoint and even less where the government would act contrary to such a consensus barring any potential ethical issues.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 01:18:03
August 13 2011 01:06 GMT
#298
On August 13 2011 10:01 LegendaryZ wrote:
Just to give my own quick examples, could you come up with a purely logical reason (not based at all on moral values) for the government NOT to be allowed to tap our phones or be able to reference on internet browsing history on demand for the purposes of preserving public safety?


Yes. One cannot deny that there is some sort of marginal utility to privacy, and that protections against excessive government power are a logically advantageous goal.

Additionally, such invasion of privacy may be deemed unconstitutional by legal experts as well, which would prohibit it.

On August 13 2011 10:01 LegendaryZ wrote:
Edit: Also, as far as science goes, there really aren't a whole lot of issues out there where there's a 99% scientific consensus about any given subject that would matter from a policy standpoint and even less where the government would act contrary to such a consensus barring any potential ethical issues.


You don't need a 99% consensus; 66.6%-75% will do for most things the way it does in a democracy.

Off the top of my head, I can tell you that (in recent years) our policies on the budget/deficit/debt, health care reform, global climate change, education, and scientific research have all run against scientific consensuses in various major ways.
LegendaryZ
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1583 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 01:28:30
August 13 2011 01:20 GMT
#299
On August 13 2011 10:06 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 10:01 LegendaryZ wrote:
Just to give my own quick examples, could you come up with a purely logical reason (not based at all on moral values) for the government NOT to be allowed to tap our phones or be able to reference on internet browsing history on demand for the purposes of preserving public safety?


Yes, there is. One cannot deny that there is some sort of marginal utility to privacy, and that protections against excessive government power are a logically advantageous goal.

Additionally, such invasion of privacy may be deemed unconstitutional by legal experts as well, which would prohibit it.


Privacy has utility for the individual, not for society as a whole. If the logical argument is going to be to provide protection against government power, there is no logical reason for any government to jeopardize itself by allowing oppositional powers to gain any foothold or dissent. Also, so far a social welfare is concerned, the preservation of individual privacy allows for much more risks overall than it resolves. Simply put, there's no great social benefit to be had in disallowing people to be strip searched before getting on an airplane... Our disagreement of the practice stems from our moral beliefs more so than any logic.

While invasion of privacy may be deemed unconstitutional by legal experts today, given a government where policy is made by people that have no vested interest in preserving our current constitution without a logical reason for doing so (one could make plenty of good reasons why the second amendment shouldn't exist anymore), it means little since constitutions could be amended accordingly, forcing any legal experts to apply their expertise within those new confines. Ultimately, you would be at the mercy of how far these experts are willing to take their views of what would be beneficial to society.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 01:49:22
August 13 2011 01:29 GMT
#300
On August 13 2011 10:20 LegendaryZ wrote:
Privacy has utility for the individual, not for society as a whole. If the logical argument is going to be to provide protection against government power, there is no logical reason for any government to jeopardize itself by allowing oppositional powers to gain any foothold or dissent.


Privacy does have utility for society as a whole as society is made up of individuals. There are intangible social drawbacks to invasion of privacy, such as harming people psychologically. If enough people people are sufficiently harmed by such drawbacks, then the costs of invading privacy outweigh the benefits to individual safety.

On some level, a society has to select a point somewhere along the continuum of privacy and safety. Utlimately, since the public has a very poor and non-empirical way of evaluating risks to safety (hence why we have panics which drastically hurt freedoms in the wake of focusing events, while ignoring major killers such as obesity), it's better for experts to decide.

You might be surprised by this, but in a more technocratic America, there would likely be less invasion of privacy in the interests of law enforcement. Most of our recent implementations of such policy, such as the Patriot Act, were founded in public fear rather than expert consensus.

On August 13 2011 10:20 LegendaryZ wrote:
Also, so far a social welfare is concerned, the preservation of individual privacy allows for much more risks overall than it resolves. Simply put, there's no great social benefit to be had in disallowing people to be strip searched before getting on an airplane... Our disagreement of the practice stems from our moral beliefs more so than any logic.


There is a social benefit, because people don't like it. While that has a foundation in moral issues, that discomfort is nevertheless legitimate, has real effects such as discouraging people from using air travel, and must be taken into account.

On August 13 2011 10:20 LegendaryZ wrote:
While invasion of privacy may be deemed unconstitutional by legal experts today, given a government where policy is made by people that have no vested interest in preserving our current constitution without a logical reason for doing so, it means little since constitutions could be amended accordingly, forcing any legal experts to apply their expertise within those new confines. Ultimately, you would be at the mercy of how far these experts are willing to take their views of what would be beneficial to society.


Legal experts would be the defining technocrats in any attempt to amend the Constitution, so unless there's a radical shift in their opinions (which only usually occurs in the face of drastically changing evidence or nature of life), the Constitution will generally remain static.
LegendaryZ
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1583 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 01:55:23
August 13 2011 01:52 GMT
#301
On August 13 2011 10:29 sunprince wrote:
Legal experts would be the defining technocrats in any attempt to amend the Constitution, so unless there's a radical shift in their opinions (which only usually occurs in the face of drastically changing evidence or nature of life), the Constitution will generally remain static.


So your response to changing in the constitution is to run it by people who are charged with enforcing the existing constitution? I think I'm missing the logic in that. If the existing constitution was fine, why would you need to amend it in the first place? There's a pretty good reason that the people in charge of changes to the constitution are also not the ones in charge of interpreting it, enforcing it, or applying it.

I don't see how you would effectively separate legislature the way it seems like you're proposing and expect to have any functional government, especially when science (something that's always moving quickly) and law (something that is always moving slowly) start butting heads. If the scientific technocrats believe that society would be better served by systematically breeding out genetic diseases and legal technocrats argue that it's unconstitutional, who decides which side wins that argument in this system?

Or are the scientific technocrats only allowed to institute laws and policies that fall in line within the existing legal framework that legal technocrats agree on? If that's the case, what exactly is the point then since it would be the legal technocrats with no scientific knowledge ultimately determining what is or is not permitted? I'll have to admit that I'm quickly getting lost here.

I suppose I was thinking more of a meritocracy that an technocracy now that I think about it...
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
August 13 2011 01:59 GMT
#302
Ever heard of efficient markets? The invisible hand? Yea, it works better than bureaucratic decisions made by "experts."

"Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."
-Winston Churchill
Freeeeeeedom
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 02:06:46
August 13 2011 02:04 GMT
#303
On August 13 2011 10:52 LegendaryZ wrote:
So your response to changing in the constitution is to run it by people who are charged with enforcing the existing constitution? I think I'm missing the logic in that. If the existing constitution was fine, why would you need to amend it in the first place? There's a pretty good reason that the people in charge of changes to the constitution are also not the ones in charge of interpreting it, enforcing it, or applying it.


That's how it already is. Legal experts dominate both the interpretation and changing of the Constitution.

On August 13 2011 10:52 LegendaryZ wrote:
I don't see how you would effectively separate legislature the way it seems like you're proposing and expect to have any functional government, especially when science (something that's always moving quickly) and law (something that is always moving slowly) start butting heads. If the scientific technocrats believe that society would be better served by systematically breeding out genetic diseases and legal technocrats argue that it's unconstitutional, who decides which side wins that argument in this system?


The Constitution triumphs. To enact such a change, biological technocrats would have to convince legal technocrats that it is worth pursuing.

On August 13 2011 10:52 LegendaryZ wrote:
Or are the scientific technocrats only allowed to institute laws and policies that fall in line within the existing legal framework that legal technocrats agree on? If that's the case, what exactly is the point then since it would be the legal technocrats with no scientific knowledge ultimately determining what is or is not permitted? I'll have to admit that I'm quickly getting lost here.


The Constituion that legal technocrats dominate in only provides for a broad legal framework. It has little to do with policymaking except for providing loose rules that policymakers need to avoid crossing.

On August 13 2011 10:52 LegendaryZ wrote:
I suppose I was thinking more of a meritocracy that an technocracy now that I think about it...


Technocracy can and should be a form of meritocracy, yes.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
August 13 2011 02:05 GMT
#304
On August 13 2011 10:59 cLutZ wrote:
Ever heard of efficient markets? The invisible hand? Yea, it works better than bureaucratic decisions made by "experts."


Both of those ideas were brough to you by the 'experts' you have so little regard for. And those same experts would support those ideas in a technocracy as well.
LegendaryZ
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1583 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 02:24:18
August 13 2011 02:19 GMT
#305
On August 13 2011 11:04 sunprince wrote:
That's how it already is. Legal experts dominate both the interpretation and changing of the Constitution.

The Constitution triumphs. To enact such a change, biological technocrats would have to convince legal technocrats that it is worth pursuing.

I thought these were the exact problems we were trying to solve with in the first place--the fact that things are ultimately decided by people with absolutely no expertise in the actual issue at hand... Why should a legal expert be consulted at any point in a matter of health or security if there's already an expert consensus within those specific fields that we're arguing the law should be determined by? Shouldn't the legal expert in such a case just be in charge of interpreting and applying the law that the other experts made rather than having a hand in the approval of those laws? -_-;;

The Constituion that legal technocrats dominate in only provides for a broad legal framework. It has little to do with policymaking except for providing loose rules that policymakers need to avoid crossing.

Considering that every law has to be constitutional, I would hardly call it "loose rules", especially when you start dealing with initiatives that begin to discard individual rights for the greater good of society or vice versa. I don't just mean security issues either. Just about everything from health to welfare often tread these boundaries between the individual and the collective.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
August 13 2011 02:34 GMT
#306
On August 13 2011 11:19 LegendaryZ wrote:
I thought these were the exact problems we were trying to solve with in the first place--the fact that things are ultimately decided by people with absolutely no expertise in the actual issue at hand... Why should a legal expert be consulted at any point in a matter of health or security if there's already an expert consensus within those specific fields that we're arguing the law should be determined by? Shouldn't the legal expert in such a case just be in charge of interpreting and applying the law that the other experts made rather than having a hand in the approval of those laws? -_-;;


Legal experts have very little direct influence over policy decisions, serving primarily as a constraint.

I think the problem you're having is distinguishing between constitutional law and policy/administrative law. Legal technocrats dominate the former, but it doesn't affect the latter as much as you're making it seem.

On August 13 2011 11:19 LegendaryZ wrote:
Considering that every law has to be constitutional, I would hardly call it "loose rules", especially when you start dealing with initiatives that begin to discard individual rights for the greater good of society or vice versa. I don't just mean security issues either. Just about everything from health to welfare often tread these boundaries between the individual and the collective.


Yet only a minority of laws ever run into problems with constitutionality. For the most part, policy decisions that potentially violate the constitution aren't even on the table in the first place, since threatening civil rights is rarely an ideal option if it can be avoided.
FallDownMarigold
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3710 Posts
August 13 2011 02:35 GMT
#307
Fuck yeah. It's way too "lib'ral" though. Dem derr conservatives would get all panty-bunched if a buncha-lib'tards wuz in charge of the cunt'ree. MITT ROMNEY. Yerrrrhaww. We need's us sum honest-ter-gawd religius ledership! yeerrrrrr!!! dey tooker jerbs!

Yeah but really, technocracy is a cool idea and all, but it simply would be impossible to implement in today's domestic AND global political climates.
itkovian
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States1763 Posts
August 13 2011 03:09 GMT
#308
Are these officials voted on or elected? It seems corruption would be very potent in a system with such few players.

However, if everything ran smoothly and without interference, the system sounds like it would work marvelously, as you would have competent officials directing in their feilds of interest.
=)=
LegendaryZ
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1583 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 03:17:29
August 13 2011 03:11 GMT
#309
On August 13 2011 11:34 sunprince wrote:
Legal experts have very little direct influence over policy decisions, serving primarily as a constraint.

I think the problem you're having is distinguishing between constitutional law and policy/administrative law. Legal technocrats dominate the former, but it doesn't affect the latter as much as you're making it seem.

Yet only a minority of laws ever run into problems with constitutionality. For the most part, policy decisions that potentially violate the constitution aren't even on the table in the first place, since threatening civil rights is rarely an ideal option if it can be avoided.

That's because politicians (many of whom at least in the United States are probably close to what you would consider legal technocrats given their heavy legal background) are always arguing about it to the point where very few laws that actually challenge the boundaries pass the legislative process. There are, however, arguments made every single day within the legislature about bills that never pass, many of which would probably serve to our social benefit. Just because politicians do the work beforehand doesn't mean controversial bills are never on the table in the first place. It's just that politicians often act as their own constraint rather than your suggested system where a separate entity would act as a constraint to a group of people whose primary interest isn't actually the law so much as enacting positive progress.

I took a bit of time to read through some of the other posts in the thread and I noticed that you referred to China as a technocracy, which it really isn't (at least not in the way you're describing a technocracy). The background of Chinese politicians is definitely more based in engineering and the sciences overall whereas US politicians primarily come from legal backgrounds, but that doesn't change the fact that they are still politicians often making decisions on subjects outside of their expertise. Just like the US, they are advised by expert opinion, but are free to override that opinion when they decide to.

You could certainly make an argument that people trained in engineering or the sciences are more likely to have real world problem solving skills than legal experts, who primarily make careers playing with words, but China also pays a very real price for that in the form of lagging behind in human rights and individual freedoms despite the effectiveness of their calculated social decisions. These limits have also played a large part in creating a huge class division and level of political corruption that would make you seriously wonder if China should be really be considered a model in any way, shape, or form for what a society or government should strive for.

I'm going to stop posting because I don't feel I really have anything else to add, but I think there's a lot of stuff that's going to have to be worked out if any society ever wants to make this a practical form of government. It seems to me like it would require a lot more cooperation and trust between various parties than seems to be practical in this day and age. If it turns out that it can solve real problems efficiently and effectively without sacrificing our moral values (life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, blah, blah, blah...) then I certainly wouldn't have a problem with it. I suppose I'll leave it at that.
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
August 13 2011 05:40 GMT
#310
On August 13 2011 00:57 paradox_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 00:43 mcc wrote:
On August 13 2011 00:27 paradox_ wrote:
On August 13 2011 00:05 mcc wrote:
On August 12 2011 23:36 haduken wrote:
B) The lack of empathy. Scientists care little about your average citizens. Sometimes the populace do things that are against logic. Public mood can swing one way or another and a scientist is not equipped to deal with that unless he has prior experiences in political science which will end up like the system we have now. Scientists would have less patient for people's opinions when he consider himself smarter than them and a scientist is just as likely as the next person to be influenced by interest groups.

This rather bad and very insulting argument. It also shows you have no experience with scientists. Why the hell would they lack empathy, they are not robots. If anything in history highly educated people showed more empathy. Also if anyone, current politicians lack empathy in much greater degree as politics is basically fight for power and that attracts more ruthless people.


Gandhi is probably on everyone's top 5 list if not on top of the list of most empathetic figures in history. He's not a scientist. He was a lawyer.
There are plenty of cases of highly educated doctors performing unethical research e.g. doctors in Nazi Germany that performed experiments on the Jewish population.

I'm not saying all scientists are evil and lawyers are empathetic but rather, empathy is independent of the type of education they recieved or if they received education at all (eg Mother Theresa was born to a politician father and had no real education as she decided to become a nun pretty young).

Edit: I just read who you responded to, I disagree with him as well but my point still stands on the matter of highly educated people showing more empathy.

You are kind of right as I did not word my point properly. First we are talking statistics, so individual examples are not disqualifying my point. Second, basically what I meant is that highly educated people in history showed more empathy towards people they were not close with. This basically because they think more about public policy issues and similar. So it is not capacity for empathy I am talking about. For example movement to abolish slavery came form educated circles, ...


Ah ok understood. But to further discuss your point by your own logic though 1 example isn't representative of the whole picture. Educated circles existed when slavery started (I know slavery existed since humans developed the idea of ownership, but I'm referring to lets say the last 2 centuries). If they are more in tune with the human condition they would have not allowed or at least resisted slavery far earlier in human history. The idea that experts are more equipped or less equipped to be empathetic isn't valid imo. They're human. The individual is either empathetic or they're not for whatever reasons it may be. Politicians can be empathetic just as much as a scientist and scientists can be as "evil" as a politician.

I'll start from the end.
Your last sentence is correct, but I never said anything contrary. In discussions about human behaviour and society everything is about statistics. Politics is fight for power and some traits are necessary to be good at it. Looking at politics as it is, empathy is not one of them. Actually being ruthless liar is much better trait. Again that is not to say that all politicians are like that, just that people like that are attracted to politics and good at being ones.

In my last post I said that educated people in general(experts are subset of that) are not better equipped to be empathetic, so I am not sure why are you pointing it out. Also the only reason we are discussing empathy and experts is because the guy I responded to described scientists as unempathetic monsters, my point about educated people was just a little "side-point".

Of course educated people existed when slavery started. The same way there were educated people supporting Nazis even in their worst atrocities, how does that refute my point. I have no problem conceding that point if good argument comes around. It is not like in this area things are known well, so my observation/conjecture might be easily wrong, but that is not refuting argument. When slavery was started all people were around, but the movement to end it started in educated circles. And once again to reiterate this is not a statement about capacity for empathy, just that educated people are slightly more prone to think about more distant things and question things. And please as a counter-argument do not use an example of a educated person being cruel or close-minded as we are talking statistics.

On August 13 2011 01:00 Jibba wrote:
And the movement to institutionalize slavery also came from educated circles. The post-Bacon's Rebellion horror that was slavery in the American South was entirely created and led by aristocrats and the educated. I don't see your point.


See the paragraph above. Institutionalizing slavery was just a last step and has to necessarily come from ruling (not necessarily educated) circles. But were they on average more pro-slavery than non-educated people ? My guess would be that no.
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
August 13 2011 05:55 GMT
#311
On August 13 2011 02:48 Sablar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 23:44 mcc wrote:
On August 12 2011 22:44 Sablar wrote:
On August 12 2011 22:23 sunprince wrote:
On August 12 2011 22:16 Sablar wrote:
I think many people seem regard scientists like some sort of rational, methodical robot that will carefully weigh the evidence and decide what is right.


I don't think anyone has suggested this. Rather, they are beter than average people at rational, methodical thought, but obviously not perfect.

On August 12 2011 22:16 Sablar wrote:
Scientists agree about nothing and there are always different camps within diciplines much like political parties.


False. Scientists agree about a great many things. When they do disagree, then that's something you don't have enough knowledge to act on anyway.

On August 12 2011 22:16 Sablar wrote:
Sociology and stuff regarding the whole society can't really be measured though, and there would never be a consensus or even close to it regarding what was right. This goes for economics, psychology etc as well.


False. Look up a sociology or economics journal sometime. Both fields are rooted in empirical science. I can't speak for psychology personally, but I would assume the same is true of it as well. And again, there is plenty of consensus in every field. Just about everything studied up to the undergraduate level is scientific consensus. It's enough to fill vast libraries and most of Wikipedia.

You seem to be working off of popular stereotypes about science, without any idea of how it actually works.

On August 12 2011 22:16 Sablar wrote:
Making sure to consult those who have knowledge in fields relevant to decisions is of course important, but that's how it's done today.


Yes, but then the politicians ignore or override those experts, which is how we get a lot of problems.


Look at pretty much any field of science and people will be disaegreeing. From the existence of some theorized physical matter to the motivations of humans or the most important reasons behind unempoyment. There are contradicting results and camps with different ideas and discussions that pretty much never get settled. There isn't a consensus, instead text books are filled the "the x perspective" as opposed to "the y perspective".

Something being "rooted in empircal sciences" doesn't mean that is somehow objective or that there is a right answer. It's far too complicated to know about all the factors in society in order to make accurate preductions about economics or about how crime will be effected by different changes in society. You just can't control such variables and because of that science can't give any clear answers. At best there is good line of reasoning behind whatever prediction is made. In the end that line of reasoning may or may not be better than that of an elected politicians, but that alone doesn't make it a better system. Also sociology is more qualitative than quantitative overall.

So don't say things are false when they aren't, and don't question my character because I was the only one who admitted to using generalizations about scientists.

They are disagreeing about some things and agreeing about others. Those things that are not agreed upon are considered as of yet unknown or not precise. 100 years ago there was disagreement about general hereditary mechanisms in biology, not anymore, now the disagreements are about small details of those mechanisms. Social sciences are the ones with all the "perspectives", but even those are getting better. And being rooted in empirical science actually means exactly that it is objective.

The point is not what might be. The point is that the expert has higher probability of making a right call and that is it. Also there is no necessity to eliminate democratic procedures in general, I think a hybrid system would be better. Basically people would vote on the matters of general policy as in those cases the science often has nothing definitive to say. For example people would vote on the level of social services they want and similar stuff and than technocrats would implement the details to the best of their knowledge. Also you can add even some democratic control over the technocrats, but it has to be well thought through so they do not become today's polititians.


I was arguing that science can't predict the consequences of many or most political decisions, and that there is much disagreement. I'm not saying that they don't agree on anything. I just think it's a shame when people expect science to be able to explain everything because it can't.

Rooted in empircal sciences doesn't mean that it is objective, it just means that the data is objective, not the interpretation of the data or the choice of which data was collected. It's perfectly possible for 2 scientists to gather data on the same phenomenon and reach completely different conclusions. The data in social sciences is used more as an argument because the data in itself doesn't really prove anything. Normally it´s used to back up an underlying and more complex theory that doesn't come as a necessity from the data collected (in the cases where quantitative analysis is even used).

I still prefer an expert on a subject over a politician when it comes to making a decision. Just not sure how such a thing could be implemented and who would decide which expert is the best suited for making such decisions. It's not like a democratic decision would be viable because people have no idea which expert on the same subject is the most qualified, and the alternative is some sort of academic peer election but I can't help but think that this would turn the scientific community just as bad as the political one.

Well we are not in disagreement that much, at least as far as social sciences go. I have slight disagreements but that would be off-topic.

As for the practical implementation. One thing it would be necessary (as in all policy decisions on complex things) to experiment somewhat. Does this work, no, we need to change it and so on. But few things to note, for it to be better than current state it is not necessary to get the best expert, you can just get an ok expert. So if you went a voting for expert route, you can just vote for expert from the pool of experts that satisfy some criteria relevant for the position.

It is strange that people in this thread often construe arguments that show that technocracy (of whatever flavor) would have some problems. Of course it would. The point is if it would be better, even slightly, than current state.
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25107 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 06:02:30
August 13 2011 06:01 GMT
#312
Personally I'm all for it in theory, but it's difficult to imagine how to implement it fairly.

Democracy is a nice concept, but kind of gives us some flawed results for a multitude of reasons. I'm not one of those elitist people who think that everybody but me is an idiot, but the mass-media don't exactly help in this regard. It's why a disappointingly large proportion of people think that they are taxed too much despite empirical evidence to the contrary. They believe that benefit scroungers are a massive, massive problem destroying the nation when in reality it's other things, oh of course and that immigrants are to blame for EVERYTHING.

At the VERY least, can we at least please have proper appointments made in existing government departments? I mean is that too much to ask? I mean for a position requiring legal expertise, somebody with legal training is really kind of preferable (although at least in the UK a large proportion of our representatives have studied in law).

I suppose an argument could be that the Civil Service, at least in the UK does a large amount of the actual work for the incumbent government, so I guess experts in their fields do have a degree of influence in this regard
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
August 13 2011 06:03 GMT
#313
On August 13 2011 04:23 meadbert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 04:18 Thorakh wrote:
On August 13 2011 04:03 domovoi wrote:
What we're actually doing is simply eliminating ideology from the decision-making

It's quite naive to believe that scientists don't have their own ideology. Science cannot answer normative questions, and political decisions are often simply that. Moreover, what you ask is often just as important as the answer. You could say, "Scientists, give me a solution to solve global warming." The problem is that they are not qualified to tell you whether or not that solution would be calamitous to human well-being in an economic sense.
And that's why there's a bunch of wellrespected economists on the council of course.

Wellrespected by whom? Are we using a circular peer system where members of the ruling class are well respected by other members of the ruling class?
If we mean wellrespected by the people then just have those people express their respect through a vote and have a democracy just as we have now.

And scientist that appreciates empirical data must agree that Democracies have functioned far better than any other form of government yet tested.

The circularity is broken by the fact that the "ruling class" is open to everyone. Also technocracy does not mean eliminating democratic elements entirely. It might mean limiting positions to experts satisfying some criteria. And all current democracies have if not theoretical than practical limitations on who can hold an office.
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25107 Posts
August 13 2011 06:09 GMT
#314
Also @mcc I do enjoy a lot of what you're putting down here, just seeking clarification on a point. You claim that a relative lack of empathy is integral to the success of a politician or is a beneficial character trait to have. Is this why a representative democracy can only succeed in benefitting the whole populace to a certain extent and never being 'completely just'. The kind of characters who gain positions of power are by default not the kind of people to risk popular support in doing 'the right thing'?

Also, 28 hours without sleep may explain the incoherence of that last post
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 06:37:32
August 13 2011 06:34 GMT
#315
On August 13 2011 15:09 Ubertron wrote:
Also @mcc I do enjoy a lot of what you're putting down here, just seeking clarification on a point. You claim that a relative lack of empathy is integral to the success of a politician or is a beneficial character trait to have. Is this why a representative democracy can only succeed in benefitting the whole populace to a certain extent and never being 'completely just'. The kind of characters who gain positions of power are by default not the kind of people to risk popular support in doing 'the right thing'?

Also, 28 hours without sleep may explain the incoherence of that last post

My opinion would be that not lack, but limited empathy or ability to ignore empathy is often correlated with traits that are common in people drawn to power. Total lack of empathy would mean psychopats and although some of them are very very good at acting they are not, for whatever reason, present in political circles in history in big numbers. My guess would be that the reason is that humans evolved to be very good at recognizing and instinctively disliking psychopats.

As for my opinion on democracy. I actually think democracy is very good maybe even necessary system, but my reasons are probably different than most people. I think the biggest benefit of current democratic systems is that politics provides outlet for ambitious people that want power. In other systems those people might start (military)coups or other violent problems whether in democracy they have an peaceful outlet. This is actually my big problem with incorporating too much technocracy into our current system, but I think there are ways to do it, you just need to leave enough democratic elements in the system. Of course democracy has other benefits that everyone somewhat agrees on.

EDIT:I just noted your qualification of "lack" with "relative", so just ignore my tangent about psychopats
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 06:38:31
August 13 2011 06:36 GMT
#316
On August 13 2011 09:47 sunprince wrote:

Most political scientists would agree that while executive bureaucracies have great power (to a degree that might surprise the average American), they still bow to Congress when the latter asserts itself.
No, we wouldn't. o.o Quite the opposite, in fact. Congress has shown time and time again that they will cede to a strong executive and leave EO's unchallenged.

If you actually did study political science, then this would be an example of disagreeing "expert" opinions.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 06:39:52
August 13 2011 06:39 GMT
#317
On August 13 2011 15:36 Jibba wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 09:47 sunprince wrote:

Most political scientists would agree that while executive bureaucracies have great power (to a degree that might surprise the average American), they still bow to Congress when the latter asserts itself.
No, we wouldn't. o.o Quite the opposite, in fact. Congress has shown time and time again that they will cede to a strong executive and leave EO's unchallenged.

If you actually did study political science, then this would be an example of no consensus being met.

"when the latter asserts itself" was the key I would guess
brain_
Profile Joined June 2010
United States812 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 06:50:50
August 13 2011 06:41 GMT
#318
On August 12 2011 19:01 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 18:53 brain_ wrote:
People have been convinced to hand power (and surrender freedom) to "experts" since the very first governments... It has always ended in disaster.


No, it hasn't. Some of the greatest empires were quite undemocratic, and those that became more democratic declined as a result. The United States could speculatively be considered an example of the latter.

Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 18:53 brain_ wrote:
TL;DR: Voluntary human cooperation, trade, and ingenuity > using force to control people "for their own good".


Yeah, that's worked out real well for us. Notice anything about the US economy lately? That's what happens when you cater to the people; year after year of spending increases and tax decreases because both are popular.

Take a look at my home state, California. Want to guess what analysts conclude is the main reason why our state's budget problems are so terribad? Because we have a proposition system that make the state more democratic, thus allowing voters to consistently vote down tax increases while voting in more spending.

Enjoy your idiocracy.


Government corruption, populism, and tax-related class warfare are the exact opposite of what I'm advocating. There is nothing voluntary about government or taxation.

Government being directly in the hands of the people results in bankruptcy as people vote themselves all sorts of goodies, then fight over who has to pay the interest on the debt. Government in the hands of a privileged few (which all governments are) results in corruption, tyranny, and debt as the political class does everything it can to stay in power.

Government in all forms is bad. All have collapsed. The best government is none at all. Price mechanisms and consumer choice are a fantastic nonviolent way for people to communicate their desires.



As for the "greatest empires" being undemocratic... Those empires became "great" because of their initial economic freedoms and small, relatively accountable governments. Their economic success then led to vast expansions in power, and they all ended up being strangled by entrenched political classes, corrupt governments, unsustainable conquests, and debt - all the pitfalls of large government. And as for your idea of a "great" country, take colonialism as an example: colonialism is a net negative for countries. European powers on the whole never made money via colonial conquests, rather, a small class of politically connected people (businessmen in cahoots with government, politicians, rulers, etc) benefits while the general population is forced to foot the bill. So when you see a big successful powerful country, I see one that has already begun its decline, and whose people are thoroughly enslaved. The United States is a good modern example of this.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
August 13 2011 06:47 GMT
#319
Worse than the current system. Participate in society, vote for representatives to vote on matters of national importance. With the current issues concerning voting-with-other-people's-money I really would be behind pay taxes and get the vote.

In the words of the great William F. Buckley, Jr:
I’d rather be governed by the first 2000 names in the Boston phone book than by the dons of Harvard.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
LuCiD37
Profile Joined July 2010
United States150 Posts
August 13 2011 07:30 GMT
#320
What kind of decisions are the people in the OP's committee able to make? You need to be more specific about what a technocracy actually is, and not just make very simplistic statements about how it would work. Where do you draw the line in specialization in as far as it correlates to positions of power? I.e., do military generals completely control the military and all of its actions? Can a committee of doctors legislate moral law regarding abortion? And aren't internet privacy issues something that should be determined by a broader base of experts than just people who are proficient with computers?
I think there are too many interconnected aspects of society and policies, both socially and morally, that make this impractical.
That said, I do think there should be an objective lens cast upon the current bureaucratic nature of many committees and organizations. I think we all can oppose a system of favors and promise keeping towards appointments of officials in the discussed fields, but I don't think that means that we can blatantly declare that every area of governmental policy should be solely and unquestionably implemented by the academics or professionals in those fields.
If we could be more specific about what we are actually talking about, and fully consider the scope of the implications of the "technocracy", then we might have a useful discussion about it.
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
August 13 2011 07:59 GMT
#321
What you are talking about can be called either technological aristocracy, elites, dictatorship of engineers, industrial democracy, econocracy, meritocracy, bureaucracy, scientific socialism, etc, all of which are part of the Price System goulash of corruption. Technocracy is unique. It has no counterpart anywhere else on earth.

"The instances of such misuse of `Technocracy' and `Technocrat' are too numerous for us to cite them specifically; but they are to be found in various propaganda books, in popular magazines, in daily newspapers--from the New York Times down to the Hearst papers--and in the bulletins and house papers of various industrial and service enterprises.
Literally, the word `Technocracy' means government by skill, as contrasted to government by opinion--whether it be an autocracy (government by one man's opinion), an aristocracy (government by the opinions of an upper class), a plutocracy (government by the opinions of the wealthy), or a democracy (government by
everybody's opinion). The word `Technocracy' was synthesized and casually used, but not clearly defined, by others than Technocrats, even before the Twentieth Century, but its current usage and definition pertain properly only to the social concepts, organization,
and membership which grew out of the thinking and writings of Howard Scott. The application of the word in any other connotation today is a clumsy usurpation and a fraud." - http://www.archive.org/det​ails/WhoIsATechnocrat-Wilt​onIvie

‎"The political governments of the United States and Canada are part and parcel of the Price System of this continent. They are the purveyors of scarcity, the merchandisers of national debt and the sowers of national dissolution. They are the ballyhooers of public confidence and the salesmen of sucker bait to their citizens. The political governments of the United States and Canada are the institutional blockades to social progress. They are the strong-arm squads of the merchant of debt and death."

"Technocracy Inc. charges the political administrations, the corporate enterprises, and the debt merchants of the United States and Canada with being in possession of the data and physical facts of the technological progression of this Continental Area. Technocracy Inc. charges these dominant interests with wilful suppression and distortion of the facts."

"It, in its greater patriotism of a New America, will present a clean, hard, bright design for living that will be the glory of all ages. And when the youth of America presents its ultimatum, let no minority, racial, religious, or economic, attempt to bar the highway to the New America; for if one does, the youth of this Continent will concede nothing short of that minority's annihilation."

journals.hil.unb.ca/index.​php/RCMP/article/download/​9628/9683

Here's what Marion King Hubbert had to say to the Board of Economic Warfare, in these Letters and Hearing regarding Hubbert's involvement with Technocracy:

Mr. Brockway: Do you reject the fundamental tenet of democracy that men are equal?
Mr. Hubbert: Yes, if that be the fundamental tenet of democracy, I say I reject that flatly.

http://www.hubbertpeak.com​/hubbert/Technocracy1943.p​df

In the Declaration of Independence there occurs the familiar line: ‘We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal...’ This concept is philosophic in origin and, as we have seen, has no basis in biologic fact. Upon biologic fact, theories of democracy go to pieces. - Technocracy Study Course

http://ia600400.us.archive​.org/4/items/TechnocracySt​udyCourseUnabridged/Techno​cracyStudyCourse-NewOpened​.pdf
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
August 13 2011 08:09 GMT
#322
"I drew up a kind of a small study course of the basics of what we were talking about, for use in these small groups that were assembling around. That was published in a small booklet without authorship. It was called "Technocracy Study Course." - Marion King Hubbert

http://www.aip.org/history/ohilist/5031_4.html

"The Study Course has received the highest commendation from some of the greatest educators on the continent and has been termed the greatest single contribution to education within a decade."

"One indication of the efficiency of this program is indicated in A. W. Jones' book, Life, Liberty and Prosperity. The book is primarily a study of the attitudes of various groups towards labour and business, and the conflicts between these two. The study was carried out in Akron, Ohio in 1938-1939, and a Technocracy group was intentionally singled out in a sampling. The study is useful for our purpose inasmuch as the author deliberately selected two groups of Technocrats: one group that had completed the Study Course and one that was just beginning it. The “beginners”, he found, were by and large “no different from other citizens in their attitudes towards corporate property”. “Indoctrination, however,” he continues, “changes the individual into a type that we found to be unique.” On a scale that ran from 0 to 32, high scores indicating favourable attitudes towrds corporate property rights, the Technocracy initiates scored “an average of 11.9, which is very near to the average of the representative random sample”. Those who had completed the Study Course, on the other hand, “scored an average of 2.9”. These results indicate the efficiency of the course in changing members' viewpoints, at least so far as attitudes towards corporate property rights are concerned. "

http://ir.lib.sfu.ca/bitst​ream/1892/5072/1/b13876442​.pdf
frantic.cactus
Profile Joined April 2010
New Zealand164 Posts
August 13 2011 10:23 GMT
#323
Having a country run by a purely technocratic government would be a horrible, horrible thing. For example Nazi germany was technocracy in a sense and the anti-semetic policies leading up to the Holocaust, take from that what you will.

What a technocracy does is take the human as an organism (or case number) rather than a being with its own nature created from what socio-cultural formation in which he/she was socilized.This would allow for horrendous atrocities to be committed in the name of some arbitrary statistic, if the situation arose (see holocaust).

Democracy is a way for humans to have a say as the emotional and social beings we are and is a necessary counterbalance to an increasingly technocratic bueraucracy.

It's so weird that this topic came up as i'm currently writing an essay for my public policy class on this very issue!
Terran it up since 2007
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
August 13 2011 10:38 GMT
#324
Technocracy And Humanism
John A. Waring
1985
Published in:
Section 3 Newsletter, Feb. 1985, No. 18 and Mar. 1985, No. 19

Every politico-economic ideology, like every religious belief, proclaims that it has the one true doctrine and that all others are either entirely different or at "opposite poles."

They are largely successful in this kind of indoctrination and propaganda--with students and the public at large, as well as with philosophers, textbook authors, newspaper publishers, et al--because they incessantly emphasize, exaggerate, and reiterate the minor differences while ignoring what they have in common. This making-a-mountain-out-of-a-molehill game is similar to not seeing the forest for the trees and is just what the leaders of these vast divisions want the public to base their attitudes on; thus, the extremist's desperation where he cries to his followers: "It's either we or they, black or white, good or bad, etc." In the U.S., as a result of the Cold War for instance, the game is so rigged that critical thinking and constructive action have been muted by repetitions of the official propaganda line: "If you don't like what we have here...with all its imperfections...the only other alternative is some form of Marxian socialism or a fascistic dictatorship-- and you don't want them!"

So the socially concerned man and woman, the idealistic youth, are circumvented and their efforts are swerved into one or another ostentatious but petty reform movement, or some outright escapism.

How many, or rather how few, have exclaimed something like--"To Hell with those foreign isms! And with the imported monopolism of high finance misruling and despoiling this Continent...Lets start building a nation fit for everyone to live in--not just exist!"

In effect that is what fifteen men and one woman did in 1918-19 in New York City, led by Howard Scott, a young engineering scientist in his 20s who organized them into what was known as the Technical Alliance. These engineers, mathematicians, architects, foresters, statisticians, educators, chemists, physicists, physicians, et al, had been working in their professional capacities directly or indirectly for the Federal Government during World War I. Among them were Dr. Charles P. Steinmetz, the "Wizard of General Electric"; Professor Richard Tolman, physicist and during World War II vice chairman of the National Research Board that Vannevar Bush headed; Leland Olds, whom President Roosevelt made Chairman of the Federal Power Commission in the 1930s and 40s; the president of the American Institute of Architects; the chief of the Bureau of Chemistry of the U.S. Department of Agriculture; Dr. Alice Barrows Fernandez, who had studied under John Dewey and who later became the Chief of the Division of the Design of School Buildings for the U.S. Office of Education; Professor Thorstein Veblen, the "Stormy Petrel" of American economics; et al...not a group of wishful- thinking philosophers but a nucleus of trained professionals.

These trained professionals recognized what could be accomplished in coordinating the nation's resources for war. Under Howard Scott's leadership they set out to investigate the possibility and feasibility of coordinating the nation's resources in peacetime in order to eliminate waste, increase technical efficiency, mechanize industry to reduce manhours, and multiply production so that a higher standard of living could be provided to everyone, not just a favored few. That was how the idea of Technocracy got its start.

In order to understand the social design that Technocracy proposes as uniquely relevant to our North American Continent, it is first necessary to make clear what it is not. This is because all ideologies of the past and present are variations and branches of one system: the Price/Political System. Thus, whether feudalism or liberal republics, capitalism or socialism, monarchy or democracy, fascism or cooperatives, the most benign commonwealth or the most repressive dictatorial tyranny...all without exception are based on, and take for granted, as being fundamental for any society, a) political rule, and b) economic- monetary-price values.

The socialist-communist countries are no less tied to the ancient anachronisms of money, price, interest, taxes, debt, wages, etc., as are the so-called capitalistic nations, which is only natural since they too are still laboring under scarcity. Only the superficial labels of "ownership" are different. The fiduciary "mechanics" of mankind are essentially the same, however, whether within the Chase Manhattan Bank, Barclays of London, or the Kremlin's Gosbank. The main difference is that the Gosbank is larger--the largest bank in the world in terms of monetary holdings. In fact, "Bolshevik" Russia today has five times as many banks as does the U.S.A., and Red China has three times as many.

Economics in any and all forms rests on the assumption of conditions of natural or artificially enforced scarcity, far less than enough to supply everyone. The study of economics and its everyday business control and transactions tells you how each variation of the Price System makes an ideology of how to divide up that scarcity. You will find economics defined in terms of scarcity in every textbook on the subject, usually in the opening chapter. Without scarcity, some of them candidly admit, there would be no need for economics.

Politics, regardless of what label it goes under, is fundamentally concerned with the manipulation and coercion- control of millions of human beings as well as each individual one. The skill and ability to stay in office, whether a senator, commissar, king, or president, depends on how well he manipulates the people in his domain...usually in terms of how well he has them fooled, as Machiavelli postulated the game.

There are no exceptions to these generalizations; all societies, whether primitive or the most sophisticated and "advanced" today, are run entirely within the framework of the rules of the game of Political government and Economics. The inherent anti- social features of these rules have been obvious to all thinking people throughout recorded history--especially to those humanistically concerned. All they have been able to do is hope for a more benign ruler to be born, or to vote for more "honest" politicians...the wishful thinking futility of these purported choices and alternatives is dreary reading.

Enter Technology: As long as scarcity, the natural scarcity that still prevails throughout the Third World, only partially diminished in East Europe and West Europe, and toil and labor--both concomitants of little or no technological energy--was the lot of humankind, then there was nothing that could be done to ameliorate the poverty and oppression of the majority of the populations. Then a group of scientists, technologists, engineers, and other professionals--the Technical Alliance, 1918-21--pointed out that the development of technological power in the U.S. and Canada had rendered the ancient Price/Political System not only unnecessary and obsolete on this continent but increasingly dangerous for us to tolerate.

Despite their preliminary Energy Survey of North America and their warnings, the prosperity of the 1920s temporarily sidetracked their message. A decade later the Price/Political System in the U.S.A. almost collapsed for the first time anywhere in world history.

To protect the scientific integrity of its brilliant concept, Howard Scott in 1933 incorporated Technocracy Inc. as a non- profit educational and research organization, open to North American citizens from all walks of life and not solely the scientifically trained. Since then many North Americans have become members to study the possibilities, advantages, and the necessity of applying science to social problems, and to write and speak about the idea.

The Design: What Technocracy proposes is the world's first functional society. The first step is for the people of the U.S. and Canada to abandon once and for all the archaic game of Politico-Economic rule over human life on this continent. There is only one sane and orderly way to do this: by national referendum. But remember, it is a matter of survival, not choice; the System's waste of irreplaceable natural and human resources, of air and water pollution with worse depredations to come offer us no alternative.

To succeed the ancient Price-Political System, Technocracy proposes that the functionally trained men and women of this Continent immediately form a coordinating staff for the governance of the entire North American Continent's

34 billion technological Hp in factories, refineries, farm tractors, mining machines, all transportation as well as the coordination of the geological and ecological resources with that technology--for one purpose only: to meet human needs, both material and cultural, of the men, women and children of the entire continent.

Instead of money juggling and politics, interdisciplinary science and engineering at all levels from the top down would make the decisions as to planning and operating all our technology on a balanced load basis. Maximum mechanization and automation would reduce work time, giving people more hours to pursue cultural and recreational interests. Maximum use of renewable resources (hydropower carrying the base electric load instead of coal, oil, or nuclear power). Maximum use of all mining, agricultural, construction and industrial equipment operating at full blast night and day throughout the year would turn out an abundance of only the highest quality of goods since sleazy products waste valuable resources.

Contrary to what the economics textbooks would have us believe, psychologists have found that most people are not working for money. The average man, if lucky enough to be doing the kind of work he enjoys, does it for the satisfaction of accomplishment and social esteem, knowing that the pay he gets will provide a decent standard of living for himself and family. The goal in life for creative minds is to have the facilities for working out their ideas and acceptance of their best works.

Everyone would receive sufficient purchasing power in the form of Energy Certificates since the technological energy input for the production of all consumer and other products is technically measurable and the basis for a continuous Continental accounting. These certificates, having none of the characteristics of money/price/debt, could not be used for anything but acquiring any unit--say a dress or a tie or a book or a dozen oranges, etc., and any order would be instantly tabulated by the technicians whose job it is to keep the supply lines filled with more of the same. The certificate would possess some of the features of a traveler's check, an IBM punch card or electronic imprinted data face and a factory requisition form, none of whose details the citizen-user would have to be bothered with.

Everyone would receive their own annual book of Energy Purchasing Cards free as a right of citizenship no matter what one's occupational status or age or sex or color or race. To science there is only one race: The human race! Nor would these Energy Cards be based on the work you do or whether you work at all. This is simply recognition of the fact that technology is doing 99.9% of all the work so it is only functional and rational to distribute the abundance freely to all on the basis of what the machines are producing. This is democracy on a daily basis with everybody having the same vote and getting exactly what they voted for.

Exchange value for measurement and 95% of crime that the FBI states are for money, either directly or indirectly, would be eliminated at once without passing a single law or without any moral reformation in the individual. (The remaining 5% of crime is pathological and will take time to diminish.) This historically unprecedented act of removing the incentive for crime is worth a functional social system for this reason alone. But Technocracy is concerned more with social crimes such as the waste of natural resources, poverty, accidents, pollution, the Cold War, and disease, all of which are engendered by the Price System.

What of the social and cultural consequences? For the first time in human history there would be no more fear of deprivation and poverty; no more fear of political persecution or injustice; no more wastage of human talent; no more financial or other limitations on education; no more sex discrimination; no more racial discrimination; no more crime in the streets or anywhere else. No more commercialization of the arts and sex; no more financialization of health care; no more welfare or charity or poor; no more child labor or child beating or wife beating (remember, she has her own Energy Certificate, so you'd better be good, brother!); no more rackets of any kind from Mafia to gambling to the munitions/war promoters and drug dealers. The list of social depredations is almost endless, the new freedoms unbounded. All goods and services would be free to everyone: no prices, debts, taxes, profits, wages, charity, graft, insurance, banking, swindling, advertising, or any other kind of chiseling, disadvantages, or exploitation either of people or our natural resources.

This means engineering with Nature, not against her as Economics and Politics do, because in a Technate the agricultural and ecological specialists, the hydrologists and technologists would constantly be meshing their knowledge in an interdisciplinary functional way to obtain the most finished products for the minimum expenditure of energy and the minimum use of nonrenewable raw materials.

Scientists and engineers aren't trained to tell people what to do. They concentrate on getting the job done, solving problems. Those who do prefer controlling people--politicians, businessmen, bankers, etc., will all be retired or off to Spain or some likely place with all the gold bars they can carry and where they can still practice business.

What will happen to religion? Take the mortgage from the outside of the church and the collection plate from the inside, and only those clergymen sincerely interested in the spiritual welfare of their parishioners will stay on the job, automatically weeding out a lot of sanctimonious Pharisees now pontificating. People will become attuned to the rationality and reality of human life and achievement.

http://www.technocracy.org/archives/236-waring
Asymmetric
Profile Joined June 2011
Scotland1309 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 11:23:44
August 13 2011 11:17 GMT
#325
I've always liked the concept of thermoeconomics and technocracys criticisms of scarity. Since I studied physics at uni, theres a certain elegance and rationale to it the appeals to me more than the apparent schizophrenic inconsistency of more mainstream economics.
Fyodor
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada971 Posts
August 13 2011 11:28 GMT
#326
I think nations and groups should have at least some focused direction. Not sure how this can happen when specialists with narrow knowledge come together. Sounds like nonsense to me.

What happens when you have a decision that's not narrowly scientific such as those regarding value (for example the value of freedom, equality, dignity or culture). Do you appoint a Philosophy expert? This is problematic because Philosophy is not consolidated in its art. What he decides won't be predictable or otherwise self-serving.

Considering what I outlined in the previous paragraph, any conception about the end of discrimination is doomed to fail. Admittedly, such conceptions are strange to begin with. Discrimination is at the heart of human activity and I don't mean that humanity is essentially evil. I mean that any creature or society that is finite in power and resources must at some point make decisions about what is more important or desired.

Philosophically, what "tech information" posted is heavily biased by common western-world thought. Inspired by Christian tenets even though it might not be consciously aware of it, this view states without justification the equal value of men, the postulation of human rights, etc. There's also some Marxist rhetoric in there. Well nevermind that, it's polluted by a wealth of different philosophical sources none of which are a rational consequence of a government of specialists.

I think that essentially technocracy is a confusion. Political decisions can't possibly be positivist in nature. It's the kind of nonsense that comes out of a person trained in the ways of science but is not otherwise properly educated. Either that or it comes from the strange and very dead "positivist" period of philosophy.
llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
faruq
Profile Joined August 2011
United Arab Emirates116 Posts
August 13 2011 11:44 GMT
#327
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253940&currentpage=12#240

Why is this thread still open? The OP is very weakly constructed to the point of irrelevance, even ignorance. Ever direct argument to the OP simply reinforces the ignorance.
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 12:00:01
August 13 2011 11:57 GMT
#328
On August 13 2011 19:23 frantic.cactus wrote:
Having a country run by a purely technocratic government would be a horrible, horrible thing. For example Nazi germany was technocracy in a sense and the anti-semetic policies leading up to the Holocaust, take from that what you will.

What a technocracy does is take the human as an organism (or case number) rather than a being with its own nature created from what socio-cultural formation in which he/she was socilized.This would allow for horrendous atrocities to be committed in the name of some arbitrary statistic, if the situation arose (see holocaust).

Democracy is a way for humans to have a say as the emotional and social beings we are and is a necessary counterbalance to an increasingly technocratic bueraucracy.

It's so weird that this topic came up as i'm currently writing an essay for my public policy class on this very issue!

Nazi Germany was as far from technocracy as democracy is. Probably farther. In your argument you go from Nazi Germany being technocracy (without saying why) to holocaust without any logical steps showing any connection.

Second paragraph seems to show that you have no idea what technocracy is as your premise is just wrong.
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
August 13 2011 11:59 GMT
#329
On August 13 2011 19:38 tech information wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

Technocracy And Humanism
John A. Waring
1985
Published in:
Section 3 Newsletter, Feb. 1985, No. 18 and Mar. 1985, No. 19

Every politico-economic ideology, like every religious belief, proclaims that it has the one true doctrine and that all others are either entirely different or at "opposite poles."

They are largely successful in this kind of indoctrination and propaganda--with students and the public at large, as well as with philosophers, textbook authors, newspaper publishers, et al--because they incessantly emphasize, exaggerate, and reiterate the minor differences while ignoring what they have in common. This making-a-mountain-out-of-a-molehill game is similar to not seeing the forest for the trees and is just what the leaders of these vast divisions want the public to base their attitudes on; thus, the extremist's desperation where he cries to his followers: "It's either we or they, black or white, good or bad, etc." In the U.S., as a result of the Cold War for instance, the game is so rigged that critical thinking and constructive action have been muted by repetitions of the official propaganda line: "If you don't like what we have here...with all its imperfections...the only other alternative is some form of Marxian socialism or a fascistic dictatorship-- and you don't want them!"

So the socially concerned man and woman, the idealistic youth, are circumvented and their efforts are swerved into one or another ostentatious but petty reform movement, or some outright escapism.

How many, or rather how few, have exclaimed something like--"To Hell with those foreign isms! And with the imported monopolism of high finance misruling and despoiling this Continent...Lets start building a nation fit for everyone to live in--not just exist!"

In effect that is what fifteen men and one woman did in 1918-19 in New York City, led by Howard Scott, a young engineering scientist in his 20s who organized them into what was known as the Technical Alliance. These engineers, mathematicians, architects, foresters, statisticians, educators, chemists, physicists, physicians, et al, had been working in their professional capacities directly or indirectly for the Federal Government during World War I. Among them were Dr. Charles P. Steinmetz, the "Wizard of General Electric"; Professor Richard Tolman, physicist and during World War II vice chairman of the National Research Board that Vannevar Bush headed; Leland Olds, whom President Roosevelt made Chairman of the Federal Power Commission in the 1930s and 40s; the president of the American Institute of Architects; the chief of the Bureau of Chemistry of the U.S. Department of Agriculture; Dr. Alice Barrows Fernandez, who had studied under John Dewey and who later became the Chief of the Division of the Design of School Buildings for the U.S. Office of Education; Professor Thorstein Veblen, the "Stormy Petrel" of American economics; et al...not a group of wishful- thinking philosophers but a nucleus of trained professionals.

These trained professionals recognized what could be accomplished in coordinating the nation's resources for war. Under Howard Scott's leadership they set out to investigate the possibility and feasibility of coordinating the nation's resources in peacetime in order to eliminate waste, increase technical efficiency, mechanize industry to reduce manhours, and multiply production so that a higher standard of living could be provided to everyone, not just a favored few. That was how the idea of Technocracy got its start.

In order to understand the social design that Technocracy proposes as uniquely relevant to our North American Continent, it is first necessary to make clear what it is not. This is because all ideologies of the past and present are variations and branches of one system: the Price/Political System. Thus, whether feudalism or liberal republics, capitalism or socialism, monarchy or democracy, fascism or cooperatives, the most benign commonwealth or the most repressive dictatorial tyranny...all without exception are based on, and take for granted, as being fundamental for any society, a) political rule, and b) economic- monetary-price values.

The socialist-communist countries are no less tied to the ancient anachronisms of money, price, interest, taxes, debt, wages, etc., as are the so-called capitalistic nations, which is only natural since they too are still laboring under scarcity. Only the superficial labels of "ownership" are different. The fiduciary "mechanics" of mankind are essentially the same, however, whether within the Chase Manhattan Bank, Barclays of London, or the Kremlin's Gosbank. The main difference is that the Gosbank is larger--the largest bank in the world in terms of monetary holdings. In fact, "Bolshevik" Russia today has five times as many banks as does the U.S.A., and Red China has three times as many.

Economics in any and all forms rests on the assumption of conditions of natural or artificially enforced scarcity, far less than enough to supply everyone. The study of economics and its everyday business control and transactions tells you how each variation of the Price System makes an ideology of how to divide up that scarcity. You will find economics defined in terms of scarcity in every textbook on the subject, usually in the opening chapter. Without scarcity, some of them candidly admit, there would be no need for economics.

Politics, regardless of what label it goes under, is fundamentally concerned with the manipulation and coercion- control of millions of human beings as well as each individual one. The skill and ability to stay in office, whether a senator, commissar, king, or president, depends on how well he manipulates the people in his domain...usually in terms of how well he has them fooled, as Machiavelli postulated the game.

There are no exceptions to these generalizations; all societies, whether primitive or the most sophisticated and "advanced" today, are run entirely within the framework of the rules of the game of Political government and Economics. The inherent anti- social features of these rules have been obvious to all thinking people throughout recorded history--especially to those humanistically concerned. All they have been able to do is hope for a more benign ruler to be born, or to vote for more "honest" politicians...the wishful thinking futility of these purported choices and alternatives is dreary reading.

Enter Technology: As long as scarcity, the natural scarcity that still prevails throughout the Third World, only partially diminished in East Europe and West Europe, and toil and labor--both concomitants of little or no technological energy--was the lot of humankind, then there was nothing that could be done to ameliorate the poverty and oppression of the majority of the populations. Then a group of scientists, technologists, engineers, and other professionals--the Technical Alliance, 1918-21--pointed out that the development of technological power in the U.S. and Canada had rendered the ancient Price/Political System not only unnecessary and obsolete on this continent but increasingly dangerous for us to tolerate.

Despite their preliminary Energy Survey of North America and their warnings, the prosperity of the 1920s temporarily sidetracked their message. A decade later the Price/Political System in the U.S.A. almost collapsed for the first time anywhere in world history.

To protect the scientific integrity of its brilliant concept, Howard Scott in 1933 incorporated Technocracy Inc. as a non- profit educational and research organization, open to North American citizens from all walks of life and not solely the scientifically trained. Since then many North Americans have become members to study the possibilities, advantages, and the necessity of applying science to social problems, and to write and speak about the idea.

The Design: What Technocracy proposes is the world's first functional society. The first step is for the people of the U.S. and Canada to abandon once and for all the archaic game of Politico-Economic rule over human life on this continent. There is only one sane and orderly way to do this: by national referendum. But remember, it is a matter of survival, not choice; the System's waste of irreplaceable natural and human resources, of air and water pollution with worse depredations to come offer us no alternative.

To succeed the ancient Price-Political System, Technocracy proposes that the functionally trained men and women of this Continent immediately form a coordinating staff for the governance of the entire North American Continent's

34 billion technological Hp in factories, refineries, farm tractors, mining machines, all transportation as well as the coordination of the geological and ecological resources with that technology--for one purpose only: to meet human needs, both material and cultural, of the men, women and children of the entire continent.

Instead of money juggling and politics, interdisciplinary science and engineering at all levels from the top down would make the decisions as to planning and operating all our technology on a balanced load basis. Maximum mechanization and automation would reduce work time, giving people more hours to pursue cultural and recreational interests. Maximum use of renewable resources (hydropower carrying the base electric load instead of coal, oil, or nuclear power). Maximum use of all mining, agricultural, construction and industrial equipment operating at full blast night and day throughout the year would turn out an abundance of only the highest quality of goods since sleazy products waste valuable resources.

Contrary to what the economics textbooks would have us believe, psychologists have found that most people are not working for money. The average man, if lucky enough to be doing the kind of work he enjoys, does it for the satisfaction of accomplishment and social esteem, knowing that the pay he gets will provide a decent standard of living for himself and family. The goal in life for creative minds is to have the facilities for working out their ideas and acceptance of their best works.

Everyone would receive sufficient purchasing power in the form of Energy Certificates since the technological energy input for the production of all consumer and other products is technically measurable and the basis for a continuous Continental accounting. These certificates, having none of the characteristics of money/price/debt, could not be used for anything but acquiring any unit--say a dress or a tie or a book or a dozen oranges, etc., and any order would be instantly tabulated by the technicians whose job it is to keep the supply lines filled with more of the same. The certificate would possess some of the features of a traveler's check, an IBM punch card or electronic imprinted data face and a factory requisition form, none of whose details the citizen-user would have to be bothered with.

Everyone would receive their own annual book of Energy Purchasing Cards free as a right of citizenship no matter what one's occupational status or age or sex or color or race. To science there is only one race: The human race! Nor would these Energy Cards be based on the work you do or whether you work at all. This is simply recognition of the fact that technology is doing 99.9% of all the work so it is only functional and rational to distribute the abundance freely to all on the basis of what the machines are producing. This is democracy on a daily basis with everybody having the same vote and getting exactly what they voted for.

Exchange value for measurement and 95% of crime that the FBI states are for money, either directly or indirectly, would be eliminated at once without passing a single law or without any moral reformation in the individual. (The remaining 5% of crime is pathological and will take time to diminish.) This historically unprecedented act of removing the incentive for crime is worth a functional social system for this reason alone. But Technocracy is concerned more with social crimes such as the waste of natural resources, poverty, accidents, pollution, the Cold War, and disease, all of which are engendered by the Price System.

What of the social and cultural consequences? For the first time in human history there would be no more fear of deprivation and poverty; no more fear of political persecution or injustice; no more wastage of human talent; no more financial or other limitations on education; no more sex discrimination; no more racial discrimination; no more crime in the streets or anywhere else. No more commercialization of the arts and sex; no more financialization of health care; no more welfare or charity or poor; no more child labor or child beating or wife beating (remember, she has her own Energy Certificate, so you'd better be good, brother!); no more rackets of any kind from Mafia to gambling to the munitions/war promoters and drug dealers. The list of social depredations is almost endless, the new freedoms unbounded. All goods and services would be free to everyone: no prices, debts, taxes, profits, wages, charity, graft, insurance, banking, swindling, advertising, or any other kind of chiseling, disadvantages, or exploitation either of people or our natural resources.

This means engineering with Nature, not against her as Economics and Politics do, because in a Technate the agricultural and ecological specialists, the hydrologists and technologists would constantly be meshing their knowledge in an interdisciplinary functional way to obtain the most finished products for the minimum expenditure of energy and the minimum use of nonrenewable raw materials.

Scientists and engineers aren't trained to tell people what to do. They concentrate on getting the job done, solving problems. Those who do prefer controlling people--politicians, businessmen, bankers, etc., will all be retired or off to Spain or some likely place with all the gold bars they can carry and where they can still practice business.

What will happen to religion? Take the mortgage from the outside of the church and the collection plate from the inside, and only those clergymen sincerely interested in the spiritual welfare of their parishioners will stay on the job, automatically weeding out a lot of sanctimonious Pharisees now pontificating. People will become attuned to the rationality and reality of human life and achievement.

http://www.technocracy.org/archives/236-waring


Please if you want to say something, say it with your own words and use links with sources to support your arguments. Do not copy paste loosely related walls of text.
iPlaY.NettleS
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Australia4329 Posts
August 13 2011 12:07 GMT
#330
On August 12 2011 16:49 AustinCM wrote:
Do you think that a Technocracy could work anywhere in the world?

What is a Technocracy you ask?

A Technocracy is a form of government in which engineers, scientists, health professionals, and other technical experts are in control of decision making in their respective fields.

So do you think that it would be able to accelerate scientific discovery and advancement and how do you think it would affect the economy of the given country?\

I for one feel that this is exactly what we need and will end the OP with a quote from Winston Churchill.

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

How about this, I imagine a technocracy having about a dozen represenatives in each field and their decisions would need a scientific research paper sort of outlining why they made their decision, so people in those respective fields can peer review their decisions. I think that would be able to prevent any corruption.

Have you ever seen the movie Metropolis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7PvoI6gvQs
whitelly
Profile Joined May 2011
Czech Republic50 Posts
August 13 2011 13:05 GMT
#331
Yes,and No.becouse in the end,all that matter, are people .
But as long as you let them srew your own lives,it does not matter does it?
nihoh
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Australia978 Posts
August 13 2011 13:08 GMT
#332
By this post, would the PRC be a technocracy? The Secretary of the Party, Hu Jintao is an engineer by trade.
Dont look at the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory.
Deleted User 124618
Profile Joined November 2010
1142 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 13:42:49
August 13 2011 13:23 GMT
#333
As much as I would love to get a better functioning political system, a degree does not guarantee wisdom or intelligence. No matter how stupid democracy seems to be, equal power vote for everyone is the only way to make sure the insane minority is controlled.

I'd rather live with stupid open but stupid majority, than closed up and exclusive minority. At least if it's stupidity of majority that gives these people the power, then the people got what they deserve.
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
August 13 2011 13:31 GMT
#334
Who decides laws regarding corporations, trusts, and business regulation? If it's done by the businesses themselves, I have a hard time believing things like the FDA and anti-trust laws would ever be created.
dcemuser
Profile Joined August 2010
United States3248 Posts
August 13 2011 13:41 GMT
#335
On August 13 2011 22:31 DoubleReed wrote:
Who decides laws regarding corporations, trusts, and business regulation? If it's done by the businesses themselves, I have a hard time believing things like the FDA and anti-trust laws would ever be created.


It would be done carefully by a studied panel of economic experts, of course.

The whole system is based around experts and panels in EVERY field. Economics is a field.
reneg
Profile Joined September 2010
United States859 Posts
August 13 2011 15:44 GMT
#336
On August 13 2011 22:41 dcemuser wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 22:31 DoubleReed wrote:
Who decides laws regarding corporations, trusts, and business regulation? If it's done by the businesses themselves, I have a hard time believing things like the FDA and anti-trust laws would ever be created.


It would be done carefully by a studied panel of economic experts, of course.

The whole system is based around experts and panels in EVERY field. Economics is a field.


I feel like this takes too much away from the tenant of, "every man is created equal." Yes, experts in certain subject matters can bring a lot of interesting and insightful approaches to the table, but does that mean that someone less educated shouldn't have a voice? Or should have to count on someone else to be his voice?

Even if you were to set up a council for the "poor uneducated masses," you'd basically have to ensure them a special interest group to make sure you don't just crush them and make them slaves.

You could argue that the experts would make sure that they take steps to ensure that that doesn't happen, but how often do you see yourself criticizing stupid people in your day to day job?

I know that I, personally, roll my eyes at my coworkers sometimes, because they'll do things like delete trades (I work at an investment bank) from our systems, and we'll spend an hour going back and tying everything back to the point where we can re-add them.

Would i take away their power because they don't seem to be able to make educated decisions about their work? No.

And i wouldn't because i would probably fall into the field of "Uneducated masses." I have a degree in Economics. And German. I don't have a PHD from any highly regarded university, or any super advanced degrees. I have a bachelor's.

I feel like a lot of the people who really support this view themselves as being above the masses, and how, yes, the experts would dictate things, but THEY'D still be able to do whatever they wanted, because they're not the slovenly mass that is below them.

I disagree with that sentiment, and feel like YOU would be the ones that are having things dictated to them. You're not going to be a decision maker. Plain and simple.

And frankly, that's not a world i'd like to live in. I'd at least like to have a say in what happens, instead of trusting it to a few elites.

I'd like to at least be able to VOTE for them. If i choose to put an elite in office, over, let's just say Obama, or Bush, or any other president, then good. Let him make his decisions as they best serve the country. But make him stand re-election in 4 years.
moose...indian
jmack
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada285 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 15:52:47
August 13 2011 15:52 GMT
#337
This is what the future should be and we, the children of technology, can see it.

Why not let technology be our servant? Why not allow our most educated and sensible to people make the decisions and not for money or power but to uphold the well-being and long term survival of the human race.

What are our end term goal as a species? At the end of time what do we want to say was our civilization? Is it this world?

Or is it a world in which humans are truly free from burden and have advanced their levels of education, knowledge and happiness to their highest levels.

The future is not actually written in stone and that is a terrifying but exhilarating idea.

" (THEY DID IT THEY DID IT FXO DID IT!!! OMG John Lennon Toto destroyer LOLOLOLOLOL) " - Korean Reaction to QXC all killing team IM and destroying safe bets everywhere.
Deleted User 124618
Profile Joined November 2010
1142 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 15:56:46
August 13 2011 15:55 GMT
#338
On August 14 2011 00:52 jmack wrote:
This is what the future should be and we, the children of technology, can see it.

Why not let technology be our servant? Why not allow our most educated and sensible to people make the decisions and not for money or power but to uphold the well-being and long term survival of the human race.

What are our end term goal as a species? At the end of time what do we want to say was our civilization? Is it this world?

Or is it a world in which humans are truly free from burden and have advanced their levels of education, knowledge and happiness to their highest levels.

The future is not actually written in stone and that is a terrifying but exhilarating idea.



And who gets do decide who is intelligent and educated enough? Unsupervised and uncontrolled private schools who are there to make profit and will most likely take generous donations from friends of education? Do people vote for a commitee? Isn't that just democracy by proxy? Do people take some tests? Who gets to make and grade those tests? Do people vote for those?
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
August 13 2011 16:24 GMT
#339
On August 14 2011 00:55 Greentellon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2011 00:52 jmack wrote:
This is what the future should be and we, the children of technology, can see it.

Why not let technology be our servant? Why not allow our most educated and sensible to people make the decisions and not for money or power but to uphold the well-being and long term survival of the human race.

What are our end term goal as a species? At the end of time what do we want to say was our civilization? Is it this world?

Or is it a world in which humans are truly free from burden and have advanced their levels of education, knowledge and happiness to their highest levels.

The future is not actually written in stone and that is a terrifying but exhilarating idea.



And who gets do decide who is intelligent and educated enough? Unsupervised and uncontrolled private schools who are there to make profit and will most likely take generous donations from friends of education? Do people vote for a commitee? Isn't that just democracy by proxy? Do people take some tests? Who gets to make and grade those tests? Do people vote for those?

We decide who is educated enough every day in matters of life and death already. Doctors, engineers,... And we already have democracy by proxy.

As for details, there are many way, I would definitely propose to keep some democratic mechanisms if implementing it. As some people pointed out the title technocracy vs democracy is kind of misleading as they are not really entirely exclusive.
Ropid
Profile Joined March 2009
Germany3557 Posts
August 13 2011 16:41 GMT
#340
On August 13 2011 22:08 nihoh wrote:
By this post, would the PRC be a technocracy? The Secretary of the Party, Hu Jintao is an engineer by trade.

No, an engineer would vote on decisions for the Department of Energy or Department of Transportation or whatever his specific field is, not be the Secretary of the Party. The Secretary of the Party would be an academic specializing in mediating and interpersonal relationships and sociology or history etc.
"My goal is to replace my soul with coffee and become immortal."
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
August 13 2011 19:24 GMT
#341
I think we can all come up with these criticisms for democracy, since we all live in democratic countries.

Try live in a technocratic country for a while and you can probably make up the same thing for technocracy.
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
August 13 2011 22:28 GMT
#342
Aristocracy means rule by the "aristos" or "best". Maybe that's what you are thinking about, and there is no doubt plenty of room for interpretation and debate about that concept. However that has nothing to do with Technocracy. Technocracy is a form of goverment proposed by Howard Scott and the Technical Alliance Energy Survey of North America since the winter of 1918-1919, and there is no debate about that, sorry.

"The members of Technocracy are called 'Technocrats.' The name 'Technocracy' is copyrighted
and the right to use it owned exclusively by Technocracy Inc." - Technocracy In Plain Terms


The following articles touch upon this common misconception, please read them:
Meanderings Into Obfuscation - Lois M. Scheel
Who Is A Technocrat? - Wilton Ivie
WHO’S WHO OF TECHNOCRACY: SCOTT?, VEBLEN?, HUBBERT? - Walter Fryers
Defining "Technocracy" - Walter Fryers

[image loading]
ballasdontcry
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada595 Posts
August 14 2011 02:20 GMT
#343
On August 13 2011 22:08 nihoh wrote:
By this post, would the PRC be a technocracy? The Secretary of the Party, Hu Jintao is an engineer by trade.

def not. a majority of the top politicians in the politburo are either engineers or geologists and they're holding positions irrelevant to their field of expertise.
slytown
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Korea (South)1411 Posts
August 14 2011 07:07 GMT
#344
On August 13 2011 02:25 Jerubaal wrote:

+ Show Spoiler +
On August 13 2011 01:49 bonifaceviii wrote:
Why are so many people saying economics is a science in this thread?


You could call it a 'social science'. Technically, none of the things that we call natural science are in fact a 'science'. It's mostly Empiricism, which are metaphysically baseless 'techne'- arts aimed at creating something.

Without going into a long diatribe about how modernist your idea is with respect to an increasing reverence for the material over the metaphysical and a blissful ignorance of all philosophies coming before your own, your argument breaks down simply at the point you realize that most experts are oblivious to the grand scheme of things and will only lobby for what they think is best in their fields. You see this in fields where there is no 'result' to measure, like teaching, all the time.

Ultimately what you dream reflects is the belief that 'if only the experts were in charge' society would be awesome. What you don't realize is that there are no easy answers and your longing for a 'technocracy' is just an attempt to ignore wrestling with difficult questions. The idea that you could ignore politicial considerations is a pipe dream.




+1

Not enough people value the social sciences and rely on pseudo-science. Jefferson would roll in his grave over the idea of "professionals" running a government. Wouldn't it be like the ascendency system all over again, with families taking over and marrying each other? That's what I think of when technocracy is suggested. There's professional opinion/intellectual honesty and then there is representation. I admit it would be nice to see those two worlds in tandem more often lately in US government.
The best Flash meme ever: http://imgur.com/zquoK
sylverfyre
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8298 Posts
August 14 2011 07:13 GMT
#345
On August 14 2011 07:28 tech information wrote:
Aristocracy means rule by the "aristos" or "best". Maybe that's what you are thinking about, and there is no doubt plenty of room for interpretation and debate about that concept. However that has nothing to do with Technocracy. Technocracy is a form of goverment proposed by Howard Scott and the Technical Alliance Energy Survey of North America since the winter of 1918-1919, and there is no debate about that, sorry.

Show nested quote +
"The members of Technocracy are called 'Technocrats.' The name 'Technocracy' is copyrighted
and the right to use it owned exclusively by Technocracy Inc." - Technocracy In Plain Terms


The following articles touch upon this common misconception, please read them:
Meanderings Into Obfuscation - Lois M. Scheel
Who Is A Technocrat? - Wilton Ivie
WHO’S WHO OF TECHNOCRACY: SCOTT?, VEBLEN?, HUBBERT? - Walter Fryers
Defining "Technocracy" - Walter Fryers

[image loading]

I merely take issue with that copyright claim - you can't copyright a title or a name like that (That's what trademarks are for, and trademarks are more limited in what they protect from.) otherwise there would have been a bit of a copyright dispute between Technocracy, Inc and White Wolf games.
acgFork
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada397 Posts
August 26 2011 13:53 GMT
#346
yeah it would rock. no more idiots runnign teh country
acgFork 208
The_LiNk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada863 Posts
August 26 2011 14:52 GMT
#347
So the top man of the country needs to be a Engineer Accountant Doctor Lawyer? Sounds really Asian.
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 12 2011 23:15 GMT
#348
Join us on Facebook: TECHNOCRACY REVOLUTION

On August 26 2011 22:53 acgFork wrote:
yeah it would rock. no more idiots runnign teh country

Yea exactly do you really want to sell out your and your children's and your family's and your Continent's future to the Price System chiselers and remain a mere pawn to the triple oligarchy of business, politics and clericalism? Or do you want to be a part of the design for a New America that will be the glory of all ages? Join TECHNOCRACY REVOLUTION on Facebook!
"What Is Our Problem? Charlatans and Fools are Shaping Our Destiny" - Reo McCaslin - 1982

On August 26 2011 23:52 The_LiNk wrote:
So the top man of the country needs to be a Engineer Accountant Doctor Lawyer?

No you have it all wrong please stay on subject. This is Technocracy not aristocracy or meritocracy; Technocracy is a completely new concept - its current usage and definition pertain properly only to the social concepts, organization, and membership which grew out of the thinking and writings of Howard Scott. The application of the word in any other connotation today is a clumsy usurpation and a fraud.
Who Is A Technocrat? - Wilton Ivie

[image loading]


"Technocracy is truly a unique organization. Many organizations study society as to what if any changes are necessary to assure it has a high morality. Technocracy, however, is the only - and let me hasten to emphasize the only organization - that study society from a scientific perspective, using the scientific method."
WHAT IS TECHNOCRACY - At a recent Technocracy Public Meeting, the following was offered as a bird's-eye-view of Technocracy for the benefit of non-members attending.

"If and when a scientific-technological society is ever instituted, it will be the one and only grand revolution - a revolution of such a magnitude as to dwarf anything humankind has accomplished in eons. Humankind has had only one revolution of such magnitude. It was when human hunters and gatherers became villagers, cultivating the fields and domesticating animals. That revolution, itself, took thousands of years to accomplish, and is still going on in some parts of the world."
TECHNOCRACY VIEWS REVOLUTION IN TERMS
OF SOCIAL CHANGE - John A. Taube


[image loading]

Further reading:
Awesome Technocracy magazines on the Internet Archive - you have never seen anything so cool in your life
DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5079 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-12 23:19:41
September 12 2011 23:18 GMT
#349
Technocracy is even more susceptible to bad ideologies than democracy. Unless you want society "run" by machines (which wouldn't be a technocracy, it'd be a blockbuster movie), the "technocrats" would still just be human beings.
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
Talin
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Montenegro10532 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-12 23:38:41
September 12 2011 23:37 GMT
#350
On September 13 2011 08:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:
Technocracy is even more susceptible to bad ideologies than democracy. Unless you want society "run" by machines (which wouldn't be a technocracy, it'd be a blockbuster movie), the "technocrats" would still just be human beings.


Those specific human beings think and make decisions using a different set of standards than most of ordinary people though.

Not to mention that they can make informed decisions, rather than decisions based on corporate campaign funding, lobbying, or gaining insight by conversing with the supernatural forces.
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 12 2011 23:39 GMT
#351
As stated above, all other groups proposing social change fail the litmus test of having used science in their proposals. They all rely on improving the lot of man/woman through moral considerations. For eons, morality groups have expounded their "wisdom," and have come up empty. Technocracy and these morality groups are miles apart. Technocracy's position is well illustrated in the pamphlet, "The Energy Certificate," which in part, states:
It is perhaps one of the major ironies of history that a new, and the only adequate approach (to solving problems that have plagued mankind for eons) should have been projected and offered by certain interpreters of applied physical science who distinctly disclaim as their motivating force an idealistic search for truth, love, peace, harmony, and other imponderables.
WHAT IS TECHNOCRACY - At a recent Technocracy Public Meeting, the following was offered as a bird's-eye-view of Technocracy for the benefit of non-members attending.

[image loading]
temporal
Profile Joined August 2011
1 Post
September 12 2011 23:39 GMT
#352
no

User was banned for this post.
Pajegetc
Profile Joined February 2011
United States3158 Posts
September 12 2011 23:44 GMT
#353
I don't think it would be any different then the system we have now. Since they to would be subject to corporate interest that infest government today.
Lose Early game - Cheese. Lose Mid Game - All Ined. Lose Late Game - OMG IMBALANCE. My Guide to Zerg LR.
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 00:20:59
September 13 2011 00:11 GMT
#354
On September 13 2011 08:44 Pajegetc wrote:
I don't think it would be any different then the system we have now. Since they to would be subject to corporate interest that infest government today.

No. You are still confusing Technocracy with "aristocracy" which means rule of the aristos, or best. Technocracy is a totally different concept which is incompatible with the Price System. Can you get that into your head?

[image loading]


Technocracy is at one and the same time the most truly conservative and the most utterly revolutionary social movement in existence. Technocracy is anti-fascist. What is more important, it is also anti-Price System. This is the basic requirement for social change. No other social movement meets it. The Price System of trade and commerce is the root cause of most of our modern social problems. Ergo, abolish the Price System and we clear the way for a solution of our problems. That is the revolutionary part of Technocracy. The conservative part appears as follows: Nearly all the worthwhile things in our modern American culture came about as a result of the advance of Science and Technology. Technocracy seeks to conserve and enhance these things. These facts require a little study to understand. The Body of Thought of Technocracy is an open book. Every citizen is invited to join Technocracy and investigate it from the inside. Great Lakes Technocrat - July August 1947

The Technocrats regard themselves as being in the enemy territory of the Price System.

[image loading]

lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 00:14 GMT
#355
What's funny about this OP is that it assumes that just because people are scientists and engineers that they wouldn't make the same corrupt decisions currently do

The original "American" democracy was supposed to be about a government where normal people could be in charge. Hence the voting system allowing "everyday" people be in charge because you didn't "have" to be some rich/royal guy to be the leader of the world.

Of course, that was a failure too lol
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 00:16 GMT
#356
On September 13 2011 09:11 tech information wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 08:44 Pajegetc wrote:
I don't think it would be any different then the system we have now. Since they to would be subject to corporate interest that infest government today.

No. You are still confusing Technocracy with "aristocracy" which means rule of the aristos, or best. Technocracy is a totally different concept which is incompatible with the Price System. Can you get that into your head?

[image loading]


Technocracy is anti-fascist. What is more important, it is also anti-Price System. This is the basic requirement for social change. No other social movement meets it. The Price System of trade and commerce is the root cause of most of our modern social problems. Ergo, abolish the Price System and we clear the way for a solution of our problems. That is the revolutionary part of Technocracy. The conservative part appears as follows: Nearly all the worthwhile things in our modern American culture came about as a result of the advance of Science and Technology. Technocracy seeks to conserve and enhance these things. These facts require a little study to understand. The Body of Thought of Technocracy is an open book. Every citizen is invited to join Technocracy and investigate it from the inside. Great Lakes Technocrat - July August 1947

The Technocrats regard themselves as being in the enemy territory of the Price System.

[image loading]



So long as humans are in charge, greed will overrun them in time. Any attempt to believe this does not happen is silly.
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
September 13 2011 00:25 GMT
#357
Maybe if you had flawless angels masquerading as scientists running things. Humans are flawed. To have humans governing other humans, gotta have checks on the government much like a republic can vote out those that don't perform.

I really think this is the pinnacle of technocratic arrogance. That a scientist, a professional or expert, can simply know enough to make things run well.

Also disagree with the thought that the price system is the root cause of most of our modern social problems. It's the only way to ensure the needs of people are met! This is a system, the market, that essentially is a solution to the bigger problem of moving goods and services around. Make profit by selling someone else what they need etc etc. Horrible idea.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 00:30 GMT
#358
[image loading]


Technocracy works BECAUSE humans are greedy, etc, not IN SPITE OF IT.
Read this article about trying to control people's morality:

JOHN A. TAUBE
55 Chumasero 7E
San Francisco, CA 94132
Phone/fax: 415-334-3733
E-mail: techocrat@technocracysf.org

October 17, 1996

Letter to the Editor
SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE
Fax: 415-896-1107
San Francisco, California
Dear Editor:

Concerning your October 13, 1996 article Public Citizen Number One (your title for the presidential Green Party hopeful, Ralph Nader) I find it necessary to comment from a background reflecting Technocracy Inc., an educational research organization.

The article in a question and answer format and contained the following.

Question: "Are the American people getting the government they deserve?"

Answer: "They're getting the government that their level of civic energy has produced. They need to expand dramatically their civic energy and not let a few active citizens hold up the democracy for the rest of them, because they can't bear that burden."

If one had read the entire article one would have a feeling of just exactly what Nader meant by "a few active citizens hold up the democracy for the rest of them." He is speaking about corporate America. To him they are the "bad guys with the black hats." Nader writes and speaks in a manner that leaves one to believe that the people that make up corporate America constitute a criminal group, and are vicious, morally corrupt individuals.

It is obvious that Nader does not understand the driving force in our socioeconomic system, the "Price System." He fails to recognize that corporate America's dedication is to how many pieces of gold they --individuals in this group -- can acquire. He also fails to see that morality can be preached, and all sort of laws can be passed, but when it is all over, corporate America will still be corporate America and nothing basic will have changed.

In Nader's answer he says that: "They (the public) need to expand drastically their civic energy. . ." The questioner should have said that he really has not answered the question: Are they or are they not responsible? Furthermore, you (Nader) say what they need to do; but I ask you, in your opinion, "will they do what they need to do?" Nader's answer to this question would have been interesting.

Technocracy's answer to the posed question is that there is no indication that American people will do what they need to do. Such an answer is in agreement with Technocracy's statement that social change will not come until the limits of social tolerance are reached.

Followers of Nader will most likely disagree with Technocracy. They believe that by passing "socially conscious" laws, that meet a high morality standard, we can keep our "Price System" and our problems will be solved.

Technocracy would remind all North Americans that our "Price System" fit the requirement of a past primitive and crude agrarian age without earth shaking disasters. To keep our "Price System" intact in today's scientific, technical age invites such a disaster.

Technocracy invites North Americans to study its proposal and see that an earth shaking disaster need not be our destiny. We can have humankind's most glorious age.

Respectfully,

John A. Taube
imallinson
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United Kingdom3482 Posts
September 13 2011 00:39 GMT
#359
On September 13 2011 09:14 lorkac wrote:
What's funny about this OP is that it assumes that just because people are scientists and engineers that they wouldn't make the same corrupt decisions currently do

The original "American" democracy was supposed to be about a government where normal people could be in charge. Hence the voting system allowing "everyday" people be in charge because you didn't "have" to be some rich/royal guy to be the leader of the world.

Of course, that was a failure too lol


Part of the way this is meant to stop corruption is to take a much more scientific approach to government. If you look at scientific fields they system is very well set up to eliminate corruption through peer review.
Liquipedia
DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5079 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 01:05:47
September 13 2011 01:05 GMT
#360
Those specific human beings think and make decisions using a different set of standards than most of ordinary people though.


No, they don't ._.

What you're saying is idealistic at best and fantastic at worst

Not to mention that they can make informed decisions, rather than decisions based on corporate campaign funding, lobbying, or gaining insight by conversing with the supernatural forces.


Those aren't exactly very realistic arguments to use outside of the internet =/

Part of the way this is meant to stop corruption is to take a much more scientific approach to government. If you look at scientific fields they system is very well set up to eliminate corruption through peer review.


This unfortunately simply isn't the case.The history of science is that bad scientific ideas don't die out because they are bad, they die out because their proponents die off. And "science" certainly isn't immune to quacks and demagogues.

Here's a link of the "Top Scientific Scandals" of the last decade (according to the author).

http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/jan2010/science-scandle-decade.html

I'm not saying that the scientific method is unreliable or that scientists are more or less dishonest than the average person, but the point is that they are people, they do make mistakes, some of them are in it for themselves or their cause and not for finding the truth, etc.

They're no different than any other group of people when it comes to faults and flaws.

The problem I have with various "ocracies" other than democracy that are thrown out as possibly better alternatives is that they all share one underlying assumption:

These people are less vulnerable to the corrosive effects of power and money.

There is nothing about being a scientist or some other kind of "technocrat" that gives you Extra-Special Vision and Incorruptibility.
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 01:55 GMT
#361
Wow what part of NO MONEY IN THE TECHNOCRACY don't you understand? Technocracy's Distribution Certificate provides an abundance for every North American citizen no matter what their status is. How will you exploit another human being with the Distribution Certificate? It's physically impossible. Simple as that.

[image loading]

DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5079 Posts
September 13 2011 02:02 GMT
#362
Wow what part of NO MONEY IN THE TECHNOCRACY don't you understand? Technocracy's Distribution Certificate provides an abundance for every North American citizen no matter what their status is. How will you exploit another human being with the Distribution Certificate? It's physically impossible. Simple as that.


I think first we should understand that this isn't Star Trek and "Distribution Certificates" do not make scarcity magically disappear...
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
macil222
Profile Joined August 2011
United States113 Posts
September 13 2011 02:09 GMT
#363
Well I think both democracy and technocracy would be horrible.

The most ideal I think would be a republican form of government based on the concept of federalism, basically what the United States used to have.

Democracy in and of itself means nothing to me which I don't get excited about events like what is going on in Libya and Egypt. It could just as easily be a dictatorship.

So having said that it might seem I would like a technocracy but the problem is any legitimacy that scientists and engineers enjoy would instantly be lost in a technocracy. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. You give the "experts" that sort of power and corruption would take over very rapidly. Just think of the money that could be steered to special interests, the self importance of individuals or organizations driving policy, the money that could be made by sensationalizing and fear mongering (*cough*global warming*cough*). It would be much worse than the corruption that exists today.

The best we can hope for is that our representatives in government and voters seek out and heed the advice of experts on whatever issue is at hand. But even then as we can see government/corporate collusion and political corruption can result in scams such as the global warming fear mongering.
Jonas :)
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States511 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 02:15:32
September 13 2011 02:15 GMT
#364


It only takes 1 minute and 26 seconds to realize that democracy is absolutely god-awful.

Why would you trust politicians with making foreign policy, economic, and militaristic decisions when there are people who spend 20+ years studying the theory and practice behind these things? It's seriously a joke. Take the faculty of any decent American University and put them in charge of the US and they will run it about 100x better than what we have now
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 02:36:07
September 13 2011 02:31 GMT
#365
On September 13 2011 11:02 DeepElemBlues wrote:
I think first we should understand that this isn't Star Trek and "Distribution Certificates" do not make scarcity magically disappear...


[image loading]


The North American Continent has all the essentials:

The mineral and energy resources, sufficient freshwater supply, climatic range, installed technology and trained personnel to operate a high energy civilization into the indefinite future.

This is the minimum area for the maximum efficiency of operation.

It is the minimum area that can become self-contained and self-sufficient.

It is the minimum area for the maximum defense.

This represents North America as a contiguous continentalism.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogat7OIaMkQ&feature=player_embedded


DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5079 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 02:36:17
September 13 2011 02:36 GMT
#366
The North American Continent has all the essentials:

The mineral and energy resources, sufficient freshwater supply, climatic range, installed technology and trained personnel to operate a high energy civilization into the indefinite future.

This is the minimum area for the maximum efficiency of operation.

It is the minimum area that can become self-contained and self-sufficient.

It is the minimum area for the maximum defense.


Oh.

Well at least we're moving in a more realistic direction now.................

...
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 02:51 GMT
#367
Greed doesn't need money

Nor does wanting to have more than the other guy, that also doesn't need money.

Oh, also, wanting someone to have less than you, that also doesn't need money.

So silly
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 02:56 GMT
#368
On September 13 2011 08:37 Talin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 08:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:
Technocracy is even more susceptible to bad ideologies than democracy. Unless you want society "run" by machines (which wouldn't be a technocracy, it'd be a blockbuster movie), the "technocrats" would still just be human beings.


Those specific human beings think and make decisions using a different set of standards than most of ordinary people though.

Not to mention that they can make informed decisions, rather than decisions based on corporate campaign funding, lobbying, or gaining insight by conversing with the supernatural forces.


He he, you sound funny. You seem to think that if people cared about _______ that they'd be able to "make decisions using a different set of standards than most of ordinary people" and that those decisions would be "informed."

It must be nice living in your brain
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 03:04:07
September 13 2011 03:03 GMT
#369

[image loading]

Oh.
Well at least we're moving in a more realistic direction now....................


Yup. Technocracy is science applied to social operations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOLF59NmwtU&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL


Many people have joined Technocracy with the avowed purpose of proving it wrong but are now considered among some of it's best officers.

[image loading]



User was warned for this post
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 03:36 GMT
#370
On September 13 2011 11:36 DeepElemBlues wrote:
Show nested quote +
The North American Continent has all the essentials:

The mineral and energy resources, sufficient freshwater supply, climatic range, installed technology and trained personnel to operate a high energy civilization into the indefinite future.

This is the minimum area for the maximum efficiency of operation.

It is the minimum area that can become self-contained and self-sufficient.

It is the minimum area for the maximum defense.


Oh.

Well at least we're moving in a more realistic direction now.................

...


At this point I think he's just trolling. If he honestly believes in a world where people don't want "more" for the sake of having more than the other guy, then he's obviously a high school kid, probably 17, almost 18, wants to move out of his parent's place but can't since he spends more time watching youtube than working. Yeah, that kind of kid.
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
TanGeng
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sanya12364 Posts
September 13 2011 03:41 GMT
#371
I'm frankly terrified. Experts are the most arrogant, vain, self-important segment of the population. If you thought, politicians were bad....
Putting them in government would give them too much confidence in their pet theories and ideas which have as much chance of being deadly as they have of being benign.

Leave me alone.
Moderator我们是个踏实的赞助商模式俱乐部
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
September 13 2011 03:48 GMT
#372
On September 13 2011 10:55 tech information wrote:
Wow what part of NO MONEY IN THE TECHNOCRACY don't you understand? Technocracy's Distribution Certificate provides an abundance for every North American citizen no matter what their status is. How will you exploit another human being with the Distribution Certificate? It's physically impossible. Simple as that.

[image loading]



Replacing money with distribution certificates does not increase the amount of real goods and services produced in the economy.

Simply put, you are doing nothing but changing the name of the money you are using the the method of distribution.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 04:11:12
September 13 2011 04:03 GMT
#373
On September 13 2011 11:56 lorkac wrote:
He he, you sound funny. You seem to think that if people cared about _______ that they'd be able to "make decisions using a different set of standards than most of ordinary people" and that those decisions would be "informed."


There's actually a lot of research on bureaucracies and professionals in general that shows this is actually the case, though.

For example, the vast majority of physicians will agree on most medical facts regardless of ideology, and make decisions accordingly. As a case in point, you can see this video where Bill Frist, former Republican majority leader and physician, trashes anti-vaccination conspiracy theory in spite of the traditional Republican stance, due to his medical training:




Basically, the institutions that produce professionals tend to train and condition them to behave in a manner consistent with professional norms and/or the oaths that they swear to.
sheaRZerg
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States613 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 04:22:10
September 13 2011 04:21 GMT
#374
Hmmm....I thought this was going to be about electronic music ruling the land.

I am disappointed.

Seriously though, my feeling coming from a scientific field, is that most of the people are there in part because they couldn't care less about/ want to stay out of politics. Academia is like its own little insulated world. This might be heavily skewed in the natural sciences, however.

Edit: Gotta love that winston Churchill.
"Dude, just don't listen to what I say; listen to what I mean." -Sean Plott
FlyingSheeps
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Canada204 Posts
September 13 2011 04:26 GMT
#375
Have to love a good Dictatorship.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
September 13 2011 04:28 GMT
#376
On September 13 2011 13:26 FlyingSheeps wrote:
Have to love a good Dictatorship.


What exactly does this have to do with the thread?
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 04:32 GMT
#377
On September 13 2011 13:28 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 13:26 FlyingSheeps wrote:
Have to love a good Dictatorship.


What exactly does this have to do with the thread?


You mean a thread based on the general populace not having a choice on it's leaders outside of government sanctioned rules dictating who can and cannot be a leader and is dependent on that leader's benevolence to ensure peace.

Yeah, totally man.
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 04:49:12
September 13 2011 04:33 GMT
#378
Reminder: This discussion is about TECHNOCRACY, an advanced industrial society of continental extent in which the supporting economy uses energy units for measurement and control, in place of the monetary values (money) of the Price System.

On September 13 2011 12:48 JonnyBNoHo wrote:

Replacing money with distribution certificates does not increase the amount of real goods and services produced in the economy.

Simply put, you are doing nothing but changing the name of the money you are using the the method of distribution.


Now you might think that the Energy Certificate is merely the substitution of one kind of money for another.
But that's not so.
Money is a debt token, it is a promise to pay a debt.
The Energy Certificate is part of a measuring system.
There's a vast difference between the two.
Money is a medium of exchange, and it has value.
The Distribution Certificate is a medium of distribution and it is used for measuring.
There's quite a difference.
Let's consider how they differ.
The Certificate is issued for a specific time period and then it is canceled.
Not so with money.
The Certificate is issued to a specific person, and only that person can use it.
Money, by the way, or otherwise, is negotiable by anyone!
The Certificate identifies this person, or the owner.
It tells who you are, where you are, and what you are.
Money doesn't do that.
The Certificate also records when you made your last purchase, where you made it, and it even describes the item that you bought.
Money doesn't do any of those things.
Now the Certificate is also part of a 24 hour inventory control.
Money isn't.
The Certificate helps to maintain a supply of stock on hand at all times, and it's an intrical part of the system for planning production schedules.
Further, it is a guarantee of security because it is issued to every person male and female alike, not so with money.
The Certificate is issued to everybody as a right of citizenship and no one can deny you that right.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogat7OIaMkQ&feature=player_embedded


The Technical Alliance was founded in 1918 and Technocracy Inc. was incorporated in 1933.
PLEASE DO THE RESEARCH BEFORE POSTING UNRELATED STUFF

The following are short biographies of the sixteen men and one woman whose research led to the concept of Technocracy and the social design of science--the concept of the Technate of North America, which would be the world's first functional society.

The research and study by the Technical Alliance (New York, NY, 1918-21) marked the first time in history anywhere in the world that a country or a Continent was objectively examined and analyzed on a functionally multidisciplinary and interdisciplinary basis, not as nations and their people have always been compared and rated--and still are--on the basis of their political economic/financial ideology, their military forces, and their philosophical premises. Instead, the Technical Alliance measured and assessed the extent of the land's natural resources of soil, metals, fuels, hydrology and its energy resources, its transport and communications and construction capabilities, its industrial and technological productive capacity, its available scientific, engineering, biological trained personnel--all to determine whether this Continental area could provide an equitably individualized high optimum standard of living for its population, and if so, how this could be brought about.

The Technical Alliance Profiles - The Founding Scientists of Technocracy Inc.

[image loading]

Dr. Richard C. Tolman with Albert Einstein.

[image loading]


Technical Alliance Picture Archive

[image loading]

Those who claim they 'can't see' Technocracy are short on either facts or vision, or they are blinded by selfishness. - Technocracy Is For Women Too - Henrietta Phillips

lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 04:36 GMT
#379
For example, the vast majority of physicians will agree on most medical facts regardless of ideology, and make decisions accordingly.


Yes... coworkers can agree with each other.... I didn't know that needed a study.

As a case in point, you can see this video where Bill Frist, former Republican majority leader and physician...


Former? As in no longer a politician? Huh... Sure. It's nice that people can stand for something strongly once they're no longer in politics.
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
JesusOurSaviour
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
September 13 2011 04:50 GMT
#380
On August 12 2011 17:08 Jombozeus wrote:
Theoretically as grand as communism, with a very low plausibility with society's current form.

In a few centuries though, very likely.
Yep, most "ideologies", democracy included, tend to fail. We are humans - and humans are sinful whether you like it or not. The flesh does not incline towards any kind of general good. Yes - there will be your volunteer who just loves helping the sick and the homeless. But I guarantee you - 99.99% of the population don't care enough. Selflessness is what it takes to make a happy society. Mankind sucks at selflessness
TanGeng
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sanya12364 Posts
September 13 2011 05:00 GMT
#381
On September 13 2011 13:33 tech information wrote:
Reminder: This discussion is about TECHNOCRACY, an advanced industrial society of continental extent in which the supporting economy uses energy units for measurement and control, in place of the monetary values (money) of the Price System.

Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 12:48 JonnyBNoHo wrote:

Replacing money with distribution certificates does not increase the amount of real goods and services produced in the economy.

Simply put, you are doing nothing but changing the name of the money you are using the the method of distribution.


Now you might think that the Energy Certificate is merely the substitution of one kind of money for another.
But that's not so.
Money is a debt token, it is a promise to pay a debt.
The Energy Certificate is part of a measuring system.
There's a vast difference between the two.
Money is a medium of exchange, and it has value.
The Distribution Certificate is a medium of distribution and it is used for measuring.
There's quite a difference.
Let's consider how they differ.
The Certificate is issued for a specific time period and then it is canceled.
Not so with money.
The Certificate is issued to a specific person, and only that person can use it.
Money, by the way, or otherwise, is negotiable by anyone!
The Certificate identifies this person, or the owner.
It tells who you are, where you are, and what you are.
Money doesn't do that.
The Certificate also records when you made your last purchase, where you made it, and it even describes the item that you bought.
Money doesn't do any of those things.
Now the Certificate is also part of a 24 hour inventory control.
Money isn't.
The Certificate helps to maintain a supply of stock on hand at all times, and it's an intrical part of the system for planning production schedules.
Further, it is a guarantee of security because it is issued to every person male and female alike, not so with money.
The Certificate is issued to everybody as a right of citizenship and no one can deny you that right.


So instead of money we have rationing? Yuck.
Hmm, I think there's going to be a black market where money does exist. And it will be free from technocracy control. That's a plus.

"Planning production schedules" ... so planned economy?
"Guarantee of security" sound like guarantee of control.

Sounds like a dictatorship. This will easily devolve into a distopia.
Moderator我们是个踏实的赞助商模式俱乐部
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 05:03:27
September 13 2011 05:02 GMT
#382
On September 13 2011 13:50 JesusOurSaviour wrote:
Yep, most "ideologies", democracy included, tend to fail. We are humans - and humans are sinful whether you like it or not. The flesh does not incline towards any kind of general good. Yes - there will be your volunteer who just loves helping the sick and the homeless. But I guarantee you - 99.99% of the population don't care enough. Selflessness is what it takes to make a happy society. Mankind sucks at selflessness


Yup.

THE HERALD of Christ's Kingdom - VOL. XV. November, 1932 No. 18 - "Heaping Treasure Together for the Last Days" - Howard Scott, Technologist, Says Data Already Compiled Shows Machine Age Menace. Holds New System Vital.

Again prophetically, this situation has been referred to by the Apostle James when he says, "Go to now ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver is cankered; and, the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. Behold the hire of the laborers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth."

Manifest is it before all people that we are in a time pre, eminent above all others, for heaping together treasures, for accumulating wealth. Entering into this situation and constituting an important factor is modern knowledge and its wide dissemination in these last days, resulting in marvelous scientific discoveries, inventions and labor-saving machinery. Labor-saving devices of every description whose efficiency is daily increasing, are replacing human labor in every department of industry, resulting in turn in depriving millions of their employment, of means by which to earn a livelihood. It is then modern knowledge operating in connection with selfishness in the present social system that has brought about the present unparalleled world crisis, which in turn is preparing the way for the new order of things under the administration of the Kingdom of God.

It is interesting in this connection to observe how thoughtful minds of the world are tracing the legitimate causes of the present world depression, and pointing out how this is the logical result of the social system under which the governments of the world are operating. As an example of how the analysis of some is in remarkable harmony with the Bible, the following, we believe, will be perused with deep interest by our readers:

"An extensive 'energy survey,' tracing the industrial and agricultural development of the United States during the last 100 years in terms of production, employment and energy expended, is under way at Columbia University. It is being made under the joint auspices of the University's Department of Industrial Engineering and the Architects' Emergency Committee of New York, it was announced yesterday by Professor Walter Rautenstrauch, head of the department.

[image loading]


deth2munkies
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4051 Posts
September 13 2011 05:02 GMT
#383
On September 13 2011 13:36 lorkac wrote:
Show nested quote +
As a case in point, you can see this video where Bill Frist, former Republican majority leader and physician...


Former? As in no longer a politician? Huh... Sure. It's nice that people can stand for something strongly once they're no longer in politics.

Former Majority leader. He's not anymore.

The major problem with Democracy, Technocracy, and any other form of government is not the philosophy or structure of the government, so much as the human dispensation towards greed and lust for power. Call it sin, call it animal urges, call it a darwinian evolutionary response, it exists and fucks up any attempt we have at creating a perfect (or even close to perfect) society.

If human beings can find a way to stop both themselves and everyone else from fucking up, then we can have our perfect society. Since that's impossible, I'll shy away from utopian dreams.

What I'm getting at here is that the projected benefit of this endeavor will not outweigh the cost in social unrest, political backlash, and transitional costs (money,time, effort among a large group of people) for a society that may or may not be better and will be ruled by people just as corrupt as the last bunch.
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 05:26:53
September 13 2011 05:24 GMT
#384
On September 13 2011 14:00 TanGeng wrote:
So instead of money we have rationing? Yuck.
Hmm, I think there's going to be a black market where money does exist. And it will be free from technocracy control. That's a plus.
"Planning production schedules" ... so planned economy?
"Guarantee of security" sound like guarantee of control.
Sounds like a dictatorship. This will easily devolve into a distopia.


PRICE SYSTEM:

Any social system whatsoever that effects its distribution of goods and services by a system of trade or commerce based on commodity evaluation effected by means of debt tokens, or money, debit cards, et cetera.

The term Price System must not be confused with such terms as profit system, or capitalist system. The factor of ownership does NOT alter the mechanics of operating a Price System, and it may be added in passing, that unless it be in some remote and primitive community, none other than Price Systems exist at the present time.

A price system may be either a fixed price system where prices are set by a dictatorial government or it may be a free price system where prices are left to float freely as determined by unregulated supply and demand. Or it may be a combination of both with a mixed price system. The Soviet Union and other communist nations with a centralized planned economy were controlled price systems. Whether the ruble or the dollar is used in the economic system, the criterion of a price system is the use of money as an arbiter and usual final arbiter of whether a thing is done or not. In other words, few things are done without consideration for the costs and the potential making of a profit in a Price System.

[image loading]


[image loading]

sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 06:37:19
September 13 2011 06:21 GMT
#385
On September 13 2011 13:32 lorkac wrote:
You mean a thread based on the general populace not having a choice on it's leaders outside of government sanctioned rules dictating who can and cannot be a leader and is dependent on that leader's benevolence to ensure peace.

Yeah, totally man.


Congratulations on failing basic political science.

A dictatorship is defined as an autocratic form of government in which the government is ruled by an individual, the dictator.

Technocracy is a form of government in which engineers, scientists, health professionals, and other technical experts are in control of decision making in their respective fields.

To put it another way, a meritocracy is not the same as an autocracy. Try to understand why before sticking your foot in your mouth in this thread.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
September 13 2011 06:29 GMT
#386
On September 13 2011 14:24 tech information wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 14:00 TanGeng wrote:
So instead of money we have rationing? Yuck.
Hmm, I think there's going to be a black market where money does exist. And it will be free from technocracy control. That's a plus.
"Planning production schedules" ... so planned economy?
"Guarantee of security" sound like guarantee of control.
Sounds like a dictatorship. This will easily devolve into a distopia.


PRICE SYSTEM:

Any social system whatsoever that effects its distribution of goods and services by a system of trade or commerce based on commodity evaluation effected by means of debt tokens, or money, debit cards, et cetera.

The term Price System must not be confused with such terms as profit system, or capitalist system. The factor of ownership does NOT alter the mechanics of operating a Price System, and it may be added in passing, that unless it be in some remote and primitive community, none other than Price Systems exist at the present time.

A price system may be either a fixed price system where prices are set by a dictatorial government or it may be a free price system where prices are left to float freely as determined by unregulated supply and demand. Or it may be a combination of both with a mixed price system. The Soviet Union and other communist nations with a centralized planned economy were controlled price systems. Whether the ruble or the dollar is used in the economic system, the criterion of a price system is the use of money as an arbiter and usual final arbiter of whether a thing is done or not. In other words, few things are done without consideration for the costs and the potential making of a profit in a Price System.



What's your point?

You are advocating a planned economy with a controlled price system.

No successful economy today uses such a system.

Please stop posting your crazy propaganda. It's worse than scientology.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 06:36:57
September 13 2011 06:33 GMT
#387
On September 13 2011 13:36 lorkac wrote:
Yes... coworkers can agree with each other.... I didn't know that needed a study.


Reading comprehension fail on your part. Technical experts in the same field =/= coworkers. The vast majority of both Democratic and Republican biologists tell you that evolutionary theory is fact, even if the Republicans would be crossing party lines by doing so. Politicians and voters, on the other hand, vote only based on their ideology and pathetically limited knowledge.

The point here is that technical experts are guided by their expertise rather than personal ideologies, at least regard to their field of expertise.

On September 13 2011 13:36 lorkac wrote:[Former? As in no longer a politician? Huh... Sure. It's nice that people can stand for something strongly once they're no longer in politics.


It's just an example. He also endorsed expanding federal funding of stem-cell research and funding to fight AIDS in Africa, both against party lines. Further, the fact that he's no longer Senate majority leader does not mean he's done with politics, as he's expressed an interest in running for governorship of Tenessee. And in spite of all that, he's jeapordized his own interests in supporting Obamacare because he's first and foremost a doctor.


The point is, technical experts use their expertise in decision-making when they have the power to do so. The big pro for technocracy (not that I'm saying there are no cons), is that you get to have things like doctors shaping the health care reform process, instead of people who don't know anything about it.
sulliwan
Profile Joined March 2010
85 Posts
September 13 2011 06:35 GMT
#388
I don't think Technocracy and Democracy are mutually exclusive. There are a lot of decisions that need to be made with no clear right decision, in which case it might as well be the elected politicians making those decisions. Similarly, the expert panels might disagree with eachother, in which case a third party needs to decide between the two. This would happen when for example a medical decision would have wide-ranging economic downsides, etc.
The problem with our current system is that politicians care more about public opinion than making the right decision, they already have access to experts in any field they want, but they choose to second-guess their recommended decisions in order to gather more votes for the next election.
I am a little teapot!
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 06:52 GMT
#389
On September 13 2011 15:21 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 13:32 lorkac wrote:
You mean a thread based on the general populace not having a choice on it's leaders outside of government sanctioned rules dictating who can and cannot be a leader and is dependent on that leader's benevolence to ensure peace.

Yeah, totally man.


Congratulations on failing basic political science.

A dictatorship is defined as an autocratic form of government in which the government is ruled by an individual, the dictator.

Technocracy is a form of government in which engineers, scientists, health professionals, and other technical experts are in control of decision making in their respective fields.

To put it another way, a meritocracy is not the same as an autocracy. Try to understand why before sticking your foot in your mouth in this thread.


From your link


The administrative scientist Gunnar K. A. Njalsson theorizes that technocrats are primarily driven by their cognitive "problem-solution mindsets" and only in part by particular occupational group interests.


In other words, benevolent leaders. Yup. Nothing at all like a dictatorship to have a government system where we hope that the technocrats aren't corrupt
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 06:59 GMT
#390
On September 13 2011 15:33 sunprince wrote:


The point is, technical experts use their expertise in decision-making when they have the power to do so. The big pro for technocracy (not that I'm saying there are no cons), is that you get to have things like doctors shaping the health care reform process, instead of people who don't know anything about it.


You actually have that option with democracy. The populace "could" vote for doctors and engineers.

Technocracy is forcing leaders to be doctors and engineers--not allowing any other option. It is leadership by government decree, government choice, and government desires. It is limiting human options in the hope that "the experts" know better than feeble civilians.

By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
September 13 2011 07:02 GMT
#391
On September 13 2011 15:33 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 13:36 lorkac wrote:
Yes... coworkers can agree with each other.... I didn't know that needed a study.


Reading comprehension fail on your part. Technical experts in the same field =/= coworkers. The vast majority of both Democratic and Republican biologists tell you that evolutionary theory is fact, even if the Republicans would be crossing party lines by doing so. Politicians and voters, on the other hand, vote only based on their ideology and pathetically limited knowledge.

The point here is that technical experts are guided by their expertise rather than personal ideologies, at least regard to their field of expertise.

Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 13:36 lorkac wrote:[Former? As in no longer a politician? Huh... Sure. It's nice that people can stand for something strongly once they're no longer in politics.


It's just an example. He also endorsed expanding federal funding of stem-cell research and funding to fight AIDS in Africa, both against party lines. Further, the fact that he's no longer Senate majority leader does not mean he's done with politics, as he's expressed an interest in running for governorship of Tenessee. And in spite of all that, he's jeapordized his own interests in supporting Obamacare because he's first and foremost a doctor.


The point is, technical experts use their expertise in decision-making when they have the power to do so. The big pro for technocracy (not that I'm saying there are no cons), is that you get to have things like doctors shaping the health care reform process, instead of people who don't know anything about it.


Experts are already often used to craft legislation, however. Plus government agencies are filled with experts who then enforce the laws / draft regulations based upon the laws. For example the Fed has great economists, the CBO great accountants, the FDA great doctors etc and all these agencies have the power to make important decisions.
SpoR
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States1542 Posts
September 13 2011 07:59 GMT
#392
I don't think it would work but it probably would be better than what USA has now lol.
First of all the scientists of different fields in charge of everything would be arguing most of the time about where to put the funding considering they all have a bias. Second, they won't have time to do their science shit if they are busy trying to run a country. Bright idea, but just won't work, like communism.
A man is what he thinks about all day long.
Timestreamer
Profile Joined March 2011
Israel157 Posts
September 13 2011 08:11 GMT
#393
On September 13 2011 15:59 lorkac wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 15:33 sunprince wrote:


The point is, technical experts use their expertise in decision-making when they have the power to do so. The big pro for technocracy (not that I'm saying there are no cons), is that you get to have things like doctors shaping the health care reform process, instead of people who don't know anything about it.


You actually have that option with democracy. The populace "could" vote for doctors and engineers.

Technocracy is forcing leaders to be doctors and engineers--not allowing any other option. It is leadership by government decree, government choice, and government desires. It is limiting human options in the hope that "the experts" know better than feeble civilians.


The populace could do that. Or they can vote for free candy.
Politicians are the real experts in the field of manipulation the general public. If the public votes for what they believe is the best, then an expert in civil engineering doesn't a stand to be voted to a housing committee, next to the politician who promises free housing for all.
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 08:22 GMT
#394
On September 13 2011 17:11 Timestreamer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 15:59 lorkac wrote:
On September 13 2011 15:33 sunprince wrote:


The point is, technical experts use their expertise in decision-making when they have the power to do so. The big pro for technocracy (not that I'm saying there are no cons), is that you get to have things like doctors shaping the health care reform process, instead of people who don't know anything about it.


You actually have that option with democracy. The populace "could" vote for doctors and engineers.

Technocracy is forcing leaders to be doctors and engineers--not allowing any other option. It is leadership by government decree, government choice, and government desires. It is limiting human options in the hope that "the experts" know better than feeble civilians.


The populace could do that. Or they can vote for free candy.
Politicians are the real experts in the field of manipulation the general public. If the public votes for what they believe is the best, then an expert in civil engineering doesn't a stand to be voted to a housing committee, next to the politician who promises free housing for all.


Oh how cute

How very very cute.

You're like what, 19? 20? Almost 21? How simplistic a world view you have

Leaders are either chosen by the people, or they're not. You don't trust voters obviously, so you're hoping for a governmental authority to benevolently choose a benevolent leader.

Yeah... I love imagining worlds where the people in charge are never corrupt. Those ideas are indeed very cute.
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
CountChocula
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada2068 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 08:38:55
September 13 2011 08:36 GMT
#395
^ Why the ad hominem? Timestreamer raised a perfectly valid point. Attack the argument, not the person. Otherwise the discussion won't get anywhere beyond name-calling.
Writer我会让他们连馒头都吃不到 Those championships owed me over the years, I will take them back one by one.
DisaFear
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Australia4074 Posts
September 13 2011 08:39 GMT
#396
Straight away reminder of Deus Ex 1, with Helios and JC Denton
How devious | http://anartisticanswer.blogspot.com.au/
Thorakh
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands1788 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 08:59:13
September 13 2011 08:58 GMT
#397
On September 13 2011 15:59 lorkac wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 15:33 sunprince wrote:


The point is, technical experts use their expertise in decision-making when they have the power to do so. The big pro for technocracy (not that I'm saying there are no cons), is that you get to have things like doctors shaping the health care reform process, instead of people who don't know anything about it.


You actually have that option with democracy. The populace "could" vote for doctors and engineers.

Technocracy is forcing leaders to be doctors and engineers--not allowing any other option. It is leadership by government decree, government choice, and government desires. It is limiting human options in the hope that "the experts" know better than feeble civilians.

But the experts do know better than feeble civilians. Most humans are too dumb to make an educated vote, why should they be allowed to ruin our world? Just look at America for example, half their country does not believe in global warming or evolution. How can you possibly defend democracy when you know it completely fails in one of the largest and important countries on earth?

If you get a large enough council of experts, corruption shouldn't be a problem either. Even better yet, we could use a techno/democracy hybrid.
Macpo
Profile Joined September 2010
453 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 09:11:09
September 13 2011 09:08 GMT
#398
the problem of experts and technocrats is that they think they know what they are doing...

I can't understand why people assume politics may have some scientific solution. Who would believe someone claiming that he/she has made studies and has found the way to organize human life in the most rational way?

Besides that, if knowledge was the guarantee of good politics, 20th century would have been the most positive encouraging political century in history, which obviously has not been the case.
How many scientists did work for nazis? biologists (mengele); geographers (Christaller, who wanted to reorganize poland in a "scientific way"); not to mention anthropologists justifying the inferiority of jews, specialists of physics to make good weapons, historians inventing the glorious eternity of the German nation, etc...


Technocrats should just admit that their supposed superior capacities or knowledge are actually extremely limited, if not completely inexistant (the best sign of which being that they don't agree together)
"Courage consists, however, in agreeing to flee rather than live tranquilly and hypocritically in false refuges." G. Deleuze
Thorakh
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands1788 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 09:25:55
September 13 2011 09:14 GMT
#399
I can't understand why people assume politics may have some scientific solution. Who would believe someone claiming that he/she has made studies and has found the way to organize human life in the most rational way?
You realise you can study sociology, or politics, history and any other subject that concerns politics, right? We obviously wouldn't have a council full of physicists and biologists...


Besides that, if knowledge was the guarantee of good politics, 20th century would have been the most positive encouraging political century in history, which obviously has not been the case.
How many scientists did work for nazis? biologists (mengele); geographers (Christaller, who wanted to reorganize poland in a "scientific way"); not to mention anthropologists justifying the inferiority of jews, specialists of physics to make good weapons, historians inventing the glorious eternity of the German nation, etc...
Guess what, the scientists weren't in charge, they were told by politicians and/or dictators what to do.
acidfreak
Profile Joined November 2010
Romania352 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 09:23:11
September 13 2011 09:18 GMT
#400
You mean people actually capable of running the stuff they are in position for, like an actual doctor running the national health? Surely not, let's put the one who lies good and looks the best in a suit. herpa derp and *sheep sounds*.

People having the actual balls to make decisions in favor of what the population needs and not what they want, making the unpopular decision because the popular one is retarded? No, that would make the human race actually have a chance to get back from this monetary greedy "let's fuck eachother so we can have more money" shithole we're in.
You can't out-think the swarm, you can't out-maneuver the swarm, and you certainly can't break the morale of the swarm.
butchji
Profile Joined September 2009
Germany1531 Posts
September 13 2011 09:27 GMT
#401
On September 13 2011 18:08 Macpo wrote:
the problem of experts and technocrats is that they think they know what they are doing...

I can't understand why people assume politics may have some scientific solution. Who would believe someone claiming that he/she has made studies and has found the way to organize human life in the most rational way?

Besides that, if knowledge was the guarantee of good politics, 20th century would have been the most positive encouraging political century in history, which obviously has not been the case.
How many scientists did work for nazis? biologists (mengele); geographers (Christaller, who wanted to reorganize poland in a "scientific way"); not to mention anthropologists justifying the inferiority of jews, specialists of physics to make good weapons, historians inventing the glorious eternity of the German nation, etc...


Technocrats should just admit that their supposed superior capacities or knowledge are actually extremely limited, if not completely inexistant (the best sign of which being that they don't agree together)


I don't agree with your conclusion. All those nazi experts did a good job in their fields eventhough they acted morally wrong and did evil things.
Macpo
Profile Joined September 2010
453 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 09:38:11
September 13 2011 09:30 GMT
#402
On September 13 2011 18:14 Thorakh wrote:
Show nested quote +
I can't understand why people assume politics may have some scientific solution. Who would believe someone claiming that he/she has made studies and has found the way to organize human life in the most rational way?
You realise you can study sociology, or politics, history and any other subject that concerns politics, right? We obviously wouldn't have a council full of physicists and biologists...


well I perfectly understand this, but human sciences nowadays have considerably lowered their expectations in regard of how scientific they are... No serious sociologist or political scientist would today claim that he knows how society should be organised in the best way. If some people still have doubts about this, you can just have a look at the incapacity of economists to forsee and deal with the current economic crisis. the fact that there is no scientific consensus regarding the issue is confirming that these sciences don't have a clear rational standard to ground them. Of course, they also bring us a lot of pieces of information here and there, but that's not enough to decide any political judgment overall.


More generally, two things should be noticed:
1. the rationality of human sciences has long been overestimated; and we now realise that things are more complicated. There are reasons to this: for instance, human sciences cannot test their hypotheses as "hard sciences" would (like you cannot simulate 1000 economic crises to see if your model works, you just have a couple of singular historic examples).

2. human scientists are humans after all: they have their interests, their desires, their ideologies (what about the widespread belief (before the crisis) among economists that the free market is the solution to everything?); and these are very strong (as the reference to nazi technocrats shows). This very often make them as blind as most of us. This is a secret to nobody, and there are tons of examples of scientists making wrong assumptions, claiming science where there is only belief (how many doctors once believed that homosexuality was a disease? ), etc.

"Courage consists, however, in agreeing to flee rather than live tranquilly and hypocritically in false refuges." G. Deleuze
Timestreamer
Profile Joined March 2011
Israel157 Posts
September 13 2011 09:30 GMT
#403
On September 13 2011 17:22 lorkac wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 17:11 Timestreamer wrote:
On September 13 2011 15:59 lorkac wrote:
On September 13 2011 15:33 sunprince wrote:


The point is, technical experts use their expertise in decision-making when they have the power to do so. The big pro for technocracy (not that I'm saying there are no cons), is that you get to have things like doctors shaping the health care reform process, instead of people who don't know anything about it.


You actually have that option with democracy. The populace "could" vote for doctors and engineers.

Technocracy is forcing leaders to be doctors and engineers--not allowing any other option. It is leadership by government decree, government choice, and government desires. It is limiting human options in the hope that "the experts" know better than feeble civilians.


The populace could do that. Or they can vote for free candy.
Politicians are the real experts in the field of manipulation the general public. If the public votes for what they believe is the best, then an expert in civil engineering doesn't a stand to be voted to a housing committee, next to the politician who promises free housing for all.


Oh how cute

How very very cute.

You're like what, 19? 20? Almost 21? How simplistic a world view you have

Leaders are either chosen by the people, or they're not. You don't trust voters obviously, so you're hoping for a governmental authority to benevolently choose a benevolent leader.

Yeah... I love imagining worlds where the people in charge are never corrupt. Those ideas are indeed very cute.

Thanks, you're cute as well. Back to the subject at hand though....
1) Age is irrelevant, unless you're going with the whole "cute line of thought", and trying to date me. Thanks, but I think I'll pass.
2) I'm hoping for people who understand about housing and civil engineering to vote for a leader for a housing committee. Not people who can make the best speeches.
3) Never talked about corruption, and of course this has been mentioned before. I believe it was sunprince that said that corruption will always be a problem, but at least the corrupted officials will know what will be the consequences of their actions. It isn't a solution, but then again - neither is democracy.
Macpo
Profile Joined September 2010
453 Posts
September 13 2011 09:34 GMT
#404
I don't agree with your conclusion. All those nazi experts did a good job in their fields eventhough they acted morally wrong and did evil things.


well I wouldn't be so sure of such claim... For instance Walter Christaller's theory in geography, is largely discussed and questioned today.

Moreover, the overall question here remains: should we trust scientists to lead the country (and not only do they find out scientific stuff)? which is why i mentioned this example.
"Courage consists, however, in agreeing to flee rather than live tranquilly and hypocritically in false refuges." G. Deleuze
Thorakh
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands1788 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 09:40:15
September 13 2011 09:38 GMT
#405

well I perfectly understand this, but human sciences nowadays have considerably lowered their expectations in regard of how scientific they are... No serious sociologist or political scientist would today claim that he knows how society should be organised in the best way. If some people still have doubts about this, you can just have a look at the incapacity of economists to forsee and deal with the current economic crisis. the fact that there is no scientific consensus regarding the issue is confirming that these sciences don't have a clear rational standard to ground them. Of course, they also bring us a lot of pieces of information here and there, but not so much...
Even if this were true (current crisis is made by greed and politicians, not by economists being incapable to see what was going to happen), scientists still know better than normal citizens and as such would be able to make a much better educated vote. Hell, I don't even trust myself to make an educated vote, how am I supposed to trust the general public? I'd much rather have a bunch of educated people make the decisions, however unpopular those decisions may be.

Moreover, the overall question here remains: should we trust scientists to lead the country (and not only do they find out scientific stuff)? which is why i mentioned this example.
If we use a large enough council, the 'evil professors' will quickly be weeded out.
Myrdin
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom47 Posts
September 13 2011 09:47 GMT
#406
I don't see why a technocracy is mutually exclusive with democracy. Can't we just get the population to vote for a panel of experts to run the country, very similar to how democracy works now, just have people who know something in charge. Like have requirements in order for you to fill a position like degrees or PhDs in a certain field.
yejin
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
France493 Posts
September 13 2011 09:57 GMT
#407
Oh so you really think you live in a democracy krkr. Illusion of choice, that's what it is right now.
nospeech
Macpo
Profile Joined September 2010
453 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 10:01:21
September 13 2011 10:00 GMT
#408


Even if this were true (current crisis is made by greed and politicians, not by economists being incapable to see what was going to happen), scientists still know better than normal citizens and as such would be able to make a much better educated vote. Hell, I don't even trust myself to make an educated vote, how am I supposed to trust the general public? I'd much rather have a bunch of educated people make the decisions, however unpopular those decisions may be.

Show nested quote +
Moreover, the overall question here remains: should we trust scientists to lead the country (and not only do they find out scientific stuff)? which is why i mentioned this example.
If we use a large enough council, the 'evil professors' will quickly be weeded out.


I think I strongly disagree on a few things here

1. economists do have a responsibility in the crisis, for many of them at least, as they advocated for deregulation of economy, and made some many promises on how the market would self regulate itself... For instance, assuming the Homo oeconomicus is a rational being appears to be false: many actors take wrong decisions (underestimating the risk of junk bonds for instance) because they don't have information or don't take it into consideration rationally enough.

2. scientists do not know better than normal citizens, when it comes to real politics, 1. because political decisions are not only a matter of knowledge, but also of values ( for instance: which do u value most: equality or growth? That's not a scientific question, yet it is a political one, of utter importance). 2. because it then implies their real life, as for everyone else, and "scientists" are very prompt to hide and forget things. being granted a job in high administration, being paid thousands by big companies is often enough to make people change their minds, unfortunately.

3. "If we use a large enough council, the 'evil professors' will quickly be weeded out." Why would that be the case? I am afraid this is an article of faith, ungrounded optimism...
"Courage consists, however, in agreeing to flee rather than live tranquilly and hypocritically in false refuges." G. Deleuze
Thorakh
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands1788 Posts
September 13 2011 10:06 GMT
#409
1. economists do have a responsibility in the crisis, for many of them at least, as they advocated for deregulation of economy, and made some many promises on how the market would self regulate itself... For instance, assuming the Homo oeconomicus is a rational being appears to be false: many actors take wrong decisions (underestimating the risk of junk bonds for instance) because they don't have information or don't take it into consideration rationally enough.
Regardless of who was wrong or who was right, economists still know better than your average Joe and are therefore better suited for making decisions.

2. scientists do not know better than normal citizens, when it comes to real politics, 1. because political decisions are not only a matter of knowledge, but also of values ( for instance: which do u value most: equality or growth? That's not a scientific question, yet it is a political one, of utter importance). 2. because it then implies their real life, as for everyone else, and "scientists" are very prompt to hide and forget things. being granted a job in high administration, being paid thousands by big companies is often enough to make people change their minds, unfortunately.
I thought I already adressed this? There are more sciences than just the beta ones. And even if you are still not convinced, this problem is easily adressed by using some form of tecno/demo-cracy hybrid.

3. "If we use a large enough council, the 'evil professors' will quickly be weeded out." Why would that be the case? I am afraid this is an article of faith, ungrounded optimism...
As it stands now do you see lots of scientists wanting to perform horrible experiments on humans? No, of course not. People like that would get no chance.
Macpo
Profile Joined September 2010
453 Posts
September 13 2011 10:28 GMT
#410
I don't want to be rude, but I am afraid you don't give much justification for your assumptions beyond rhetorical claims assuming evidence not everybody shares... (like the word "of course", which doesn't show anything).

But I guess that only shows how difficult rational discussion is (if it ever existed), especially when it comes to politics... same for scientists !
"Courage consists, however, in agreeing to flee rather than live tranquilly and hypocritically in false refuges." G. Deleuze
GeyzeR
Profile Joined November 2010
250 Posts
September 13 2011 10:32 GMT
#411
A doctor must study medicine for many years then get a license before he is allowed to treat people. A bus driver needs a license before he is allowed to take responsibility for passengers lives. Every job with social responsibility requires a confirmation that a person is ready for it.

What does a president need to govern a country? What are the requirements for the president license if existed?
What are the areas George Bush is good at, for example. We can consider hem as a good president, considering the fact of reelection.
MetalLobster
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada532 Posts
September 13 2011 10:37 GMT
#412
Hmm it's in interesting idea to the least although I don't see why Technocracy should be better than democracy, they can go hand in hand
Thorakh
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands1788 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 10:45:29
September 13 2011 10:39 GMT
#413
On September 13 2011 19:28 Macpo wrote:
I don't want to be rude, but I am afraid you don't give much justification for your assumptions beyond rhetorical claims assuming evidence not everybody shares... (like the word "of course", which doesn't show anything).

But I guess that only shows how difficult rational discussion is (if it ever existed), especially when it comes to politics... same for scientists !
Evidence not everybody shares? Tell me the last time you heard about a scientist performing, or wanting to perform horrible experiments (excluding WW2). That's right, you've probably never heard of it, if that isn't empirical evidence, then what is?

And besides, are you postulating that the majority of scientists are evil bastards who seek to perform terrifying experiments on humans? Why am I even responding to this...
Saji
Profile Joined December 2010
Netherlands262 Posts
September 13 2011 10:47 GMT
#414
Thorac go look for operation Paperclip, or watch Human Resources 'Social Engineering in the 20th Century'. The fact of the matter is that groups of scientist have been doing awful things and will keep doing so with the current economic system paradigm that we have.

Info Operation Paperclip
http://www.operationpaperclip.info/

Human Resources: 1/9 'Social Engineering in the 20th Century'
bbm
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom1320 Posts
September 13 2011 10:47 GMT
#415
On September 13 2011 19:39 Thorakh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 19:28 Macpo wrote:
I don't want to be rude, but I am afraid you don't give much justification for your assumptions beyond rhetorical claims assuming evidence not everybody shares... (like the word "of course", which doesn't show anything).

But I guess that only shows how difficult rational discussion is (if it ever existed), especially when it comes to politics... same for scientists !
Evidence not everybody shares? Tell me the last time you heard about a scientist performing, or wanting to perform horrible experiments (excluding WW2). That's right, you've probably never heard of it, if that isn't empirical evidence, then what is?

And besides, are you postulating that the majority of scientists are evil bastards who seek to perform terrifying experiments on humans? Why am I even responding to this...


http://io9.com/5390389/25-of-the-scariest-science-experiments-ever-conducted

How's that? Not all are really applicable to the discussion (or really scary at all) but they do go some way to counter your point.
By.Sun or By.Rain, he always delivers
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 11:09:58
September 13 2011 10:49 GMT
#416
Wait, who regulates business? Businessmen? Economists?

Like I want to know that businesses can't put random crap in my food or lie about their ingredients.

The fact is in most cases the experts are the ones making decisions. We have boards of health professionals setting standards and practices for treatments. We have engineering boards setting standards for internet protocols, electricity, and construction. In America we have a lot of private organizations controlling things because they are the 'experts.' Politicians really don't decide everything.
Thorakh
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands1788 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 10:53:28
September 13 2011 10:50 GMT
#417
On September 13 2011 19:47 bbm wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 19:39 Thorakh wrote:
On September 13 2011 19:28 Macpo wrote:
I don't want to be rude, but I am afraid you don't give much justification for your assumptions beyond rhetorical claims assuming evidence not everybody shares... (like the word "of course", which doesn't show anything).

But I guess that only shows how difficult rational discussion is (if it ever existed), especially when it comes to politics... same for scientists !
Evidence not everybody shares? Tell me the last time you heard about a scientist performing, or wanting to perform horrible experiments (excluding WW2). That's right, you've probably never heard of it, if that isn't empirical evidence, then what is?

And besides, are you postulating that the majority of scientists are evil bastards who seek to perform terrifying experiments on humans? Why am I even responding to this...


http://io9.com/5390389/25-of-the-scariest-science-experiments-ever-conducted

How's that? Not all are really applicable to the discussion (or really scary at all) but they do go some way to counter your point.
Of course there are some nutjobs, but that doesn't automatically mean most scientists want that.

In fact, the one making ridiculous claims is Macpo (if I understand him correctly, forgive me if I'm wrong), the burden of proof is on him, not me...
ShatterZer0
Profile Joined November 2010
United States1843 Posts
September 13 2011 10:57 GMT
#418
Yes, let's let the most elite of the elite rule us completely... All that would happen is that instead of investing in law degrees we'd invest in Science/Technological degrees...
A time to live.
Macpo
Profile Joined September 2010
453 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 11:00:34
September 13 2011 10:59 GMT
#419
Maybe the reference to nazis is not the best way to go, as it brings down the debate to its most extreme. No need to focus on that: there are many intermediary situations, between "horrible experiments" of nazis and virgin innocent scientists, which raise reasonable doubts on whether scientists should lead our politics.

The existence of corrupted scientists (have you heard of the recent mediator scandal in france, where it appeared that some nocive medicine (apparently responsible for many deaths) has been given by doctors for years, with intense lobbying of laboratoires Servier?) or more simply, by the fact that many honest scientists just make very bad political decisions, all the time, even in their supposed field of competence (and this not only because they make mistakes, but because they have interests, etc). seems to me enough to argue against technocracy.

Moreover, we should not neglect the fact that knowledge being a priviledge of the upper class, such government would certainly lead to very elitist, antidemocratic, inegalitarian politics - back to 19th century where poor people were supposed incapable to discuss about politics, because they were ignorant savages - and where people supposed to know (the rich) were only defending their interest in the name of "necessity" and "science".



"Courage consists, however, in agreeing to flee rather than live tranquilly and hypocritically in false refuges." G. Deleuze
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 11:15:29
September 13 2011 11:04 GMT
#420
On September 13 2011 15:52 lorkac wrote:
From your link

Show nested quote +

The administrative scientist Gunnar K. A. Njalsson theorizes that technocrats are primarily driven by their cognitive "problem-solution mindsets" and only in part by particular occupational group interests.


In other words, benevolent leaders. Yup. Nothing at all like a dictatorship to have a government system where we hope that the technocrats aren't corrupt


You fail reading comprehension forever. The point there is that technocrats by nature make decisions based on their expertise instead of being corrupt. All the available research shows this is the case, because the people who study something for a decade are not like other people.

You also still have no idea what a dictatorship is, do you? If you can go to school and join the ranks of the people in charge of something, it's not a dictatorship. It's a meritocracy.

On September 13 2011 15:59 lorkac wrote:
Technocracy is forcing leaders to be doctors and engineers--not allowing any other option. It is leadership by government decree, government choice, and government desires. It is limiting human options in the hope that "the experts" know better than feeble civilians.


History is full of examples which prove that the feeble civilians really don't know better. People are idiots. The political system in the United States right now is a perfect example.

On September 13 2011 16:02 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Experts are already often used to craft legislation, however. Plus government agencies are filled with experts who then enforce the laws / draft regulations based upon the laws. For example the Fed has great economists, the CBO great accountants, the FDA great doctors etc and all these agencies have the power to make important decisions.


Indeed. Unfortunately, they only advise Congress and enforce its decisions, meaning they have extremely limited power to actually decide policy. A technocracy would move towards the direction where they have true political power instead of merely having discretion as the instruments of that power.
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 11:17:19
September 13 2011 11:12 GMT
#421
On September 13 2011 20:04 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 15:52 lorkac wrote:
From your link


The administrative scientist Gunnar K. A. Njalsson theorizes that technocrats are primarily driven by their cognitive "problem-solution mindsets" and only in part by particular occupational group interests.


In other words, benevolent leaders. Yup. Nothing at all like a dictatorship to have a government system where we hope that the technocrats aren't corrupt


You fail reading comprehension forever. The point there is that technocrats by nature make decisions based on their expertise instead of being corrupt.

You also still have no idea what a dictatorship is, do you? If you can go to school and join the ranks of the people in charge of something, it's not a dictatorship. It's a meritocracy.

Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 15:59 lorkac wrote:
Technocracy is forcing leaders to be doctors and engineers--not allowing any other option. It is leadership by government decree, government choice, and government desires. It is limiting human options in the hope that "the experts" know better than feeble civilians.


History is full of examples which prove that the feeble civilians really don't know better. People are idiots. The political system in the United States right now is a perfect example.

Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 16:02 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Experts are already often used to craft legislation, however. Plus government agencies are filled with experts who then enforce the laws / draft regulations based upon the laws. For example the Fed has great economists, the CBO great accountants, the FDA great doctors etc and all these agencies have the power to make important decisions.


Indeed. Unfortunately, they only advise Congress and enforce its decisions, meaning they have extremely limited power to actually decide policy. A technocracy would move towards the direction where they have true political power instead of merely having discretion as the instruments of that power.


Could you be more specific? What has congress done to step on the toes of experts in the field?

Most specific policies of different fields are decided by boards of experts in their field (boards of engineers, boards of doctors, etc.). Usually Congress is involved when it's heavily economic, or controversial in some way. Most of what they deal with is business. We already are 'technocratic.'
Thorakh
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands1788 Posts
September 13 2011 11:12 GMT
#422
I apologise for sounding a little bit condescending in previous replies to you.

On September 13 2011 19:59 Macpo wrote:
Maybe the reference to nazis is not the best way to go, as it brings down the debate to its most extreme. No need to focus on that: there are many intermediary situations, between "horrible experiments" of nazis and virgin innocent scientists, which raise reasonable doubts on whether scientists should lead our politics.
But why would regular politicians, with no good knowledge in any particular field do a better job? Look at America for example, a lot of politicians are pretty dumb because the general public is too. If half your country doesn't believe in global warming or evolution, you'll get loads of ignorant politicians elected who cannot even seperate state from church and basically ignore their duty to make sure our children will have a decent planet too.

The existence of corrupted scientists (have you heard of the recent mediator scandal in france, where it appeared that some nocive medicine (apparently responsible for many deaths) has been given by doctors for years, with intense lobbying of laboratoires Servier?) or more simply, by the fact that many honest scientists just make very bad political decisions, all the time, even in their supposed field of competence (and this not only because they make mistakes, but because they have interests, etc). seems to me enough to argue against technocracy.
No doubt there are exceptions to the rule, but the majority of scientists don't want world domination. As for your second point, I have already said this a few times: "I thought I already adressed this? There are more sciences than just the beta ones. And even if you are still not convinced, this problem is easily adressed by using some form of tecno/demo-cracy hybrid."

Moreover, we should not neglect the fact that knowledge being a priviledge of the upper class, such government would certainly lead to very elitist, antidemocratic, inegalitarian politics - back to 19th century where poor people were supposed incapable to discuss about politics, because they were ignorant savages - and where people supposed to know (the rich) were only defending their interest in the name of "necessity" and "science".
How would knowledge be a privilege of the upper class? Having a technocracy doesn't mean schools will disappear.
havox_
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany442 Posts
September 13 2011 11:17 GMT
#423
On September 13 2011 19:59 Macpo wrote:
The existence of corrupted scientists (have you heard of the recent mediator scandal in france, where it appeared that some nocive medicine (apparently responsible for many deaths) has been given by doctors for years, with intense lobbying of laboratoires Servier?) or more simply, by the fact that many honest scientists just make very bad political decisions, all the time, even in their supposed field of competence (and this not only because they make mistakes, but because they have interests, etc). seems to me enough to argue against technocracy.

Thats actually not an argument against technocracy. Politicians have make bad decisions and have interests, too. So this is just an argument why technocracy might not be that much better than democracy (or the current forms of so-called democracy we live in right now).
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 11:21:58
September 13 2011 11:20 GMT
#424
On September 13 2011 20:12 DoubleReed wrote:
Could you be more specific? What has congress done to step on the toes of experts in the field?

Most specific policies of different fields are decided by boards of experts in their field (boards of engineers, boards of doctors, etc.). Usually Congress is involved when it's heavily economic, or controversial in some way.


Political science research indicates that Congress in fact exerts enormous control over the bureaucracies (more when Congress is united, less when it is fractured). Essentially, the executive agencies are aware of invisible lines they cannot cross without Congress reigning them in using its power of the purse, and so self-constrain their behavior to avoid doing so.

For a more detailed explanation, check out Stanford University professors John Ferejohn and Charles Shipan's "Congressional Influence on the Bureaucracy" (the link requires access to JSTOR to read the full article, but you can find it elsewhere too).
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
September 13 2011 11:21 GMT
#425
But why would regular politicians, with no good knowledge in any particular field do a better job? Look at America for example, a lot of politicians are pretty dumb because the general public is too. If half your country doesn't believe in global warming or evolution, you'll get loads of ignorant politicians elected who cannot even seperate state from church and basically ignore their duty to make sure our children will have a decent planet too.


Okay, climate change. What would scientists do about climate change? Do they know the best ways to regulate fossil fuels? Do they need to worry about how regulation might affect businesses and the economy? Oh, maybe we should involve economists and businessmen in the discussion as well. But there are a lot of options of what we could do and a lot of perspectives. We should probably hire somebody to make those kinds of decisions.

Hence, politicians.
johanngrunt
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Hong Kong1555 Posts
September 13 2011 11:22 GMT
#426
Isn't Singapore more or less operating as a Technocracy in a democracy shell. They seem to be doing well.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
September 13 2011 11:23 GMT
#427
On September 13 2011 20:21 DoubleReed wrote:
Okay, climate change. What would scientists do about climate change? Do they know the best ways to regulate fossil fuels? Do they need to worry about how regulation might affect businesses and the economy? Oh, maybe we should involve economists and businessmen in the discussion as well. But there are a lot of options of what we could do and a lot of perspectives. We should probably hire somebody to make those kinds of decisions.

Hence, politicians.


For one thing, they would recognize the danger and try to act on it (unlike Congress), so they are already leaps and bounds ahead of our current system.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 11:31:01
September 13 2011 11:26 GMT
#428
On September 13 2011 20:22 johanngrunt wrote:
Isn't Singapore more or less operating as a Technocracy in a democracy shell. They seem to be doing well.


Yes. It's quite obvious that it's not perfect, but it certainly does have its upsides.

China is arguably fairly technocratic as well, but it's more communist/authoritarian with a side of technocracy rather than a true technocracy.
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
September 13 2011 11:32 GMT
#429
On September 13 2011 20:23 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 20:21 DoubleReed wrote:
Okay, climate change. What would scientists do about climate change? Do they know the best ways to regulate fossil fuels? Do they need to worry about how regulation might affect businesses and the economy? Oh, maybe we should involve economists and businessmen in the discussion as well. But there are a lot of options of what we could do and a lot of perspectives. We should probably hire somebody to make those kinds of decisions.

Hence, politicians.


For one thing, they would recognize the danger and try to act on it (unlike Congress), so they are already leaps and bounds ahead of our current system.


It sounds more like you're railing against politics in the current political climate. While I hate the anti-intellectualism that's going around nowadays, I'm not actually sure how a 'technocracy' would necessarily make these kinds of decisions any better than what we have now.

What makes you say it wouldn't be deadlocked by economists and businessmen? Just like it is now.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 11:37:04
September 13 2011 11:35 GMT
#430
On September 13 2011 20:32 DoubleReed wrote:
It sounds more like you're railing against politics in the current political climate. While I hate the anti-intellectualism that's going around nowadays, I'm not actually sure how a 'technocracy' would necessarily make these kinds of decisions any better than what we have now.


Democracy makes such anti-intellectual politics possible. Appealing to people's stupidity doesn't fly when the voters on any given issue are limited to the knowledgeable.

On September 13 2011 20:32 DoubleReed wrote:
What makes you say it wouldn't be deadlocked by economists and businessmen? Just like it is now.


Deadlocks are a result of inadequate political will. Climate scientists recognize the urgency of the situation and would certainly push through legislation to address it, opposition be damned.

Listen to what climate scientists have been saying about the climate change problem and try to guess what they would do if they had the power. The only question would be how to solve the problem, not whether or not the problem exists, or when we need to solve it by. A deadline would be set and they'd come up with the best solution they can by then.
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7886 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 11:42:51
September 13 2011 11:37 GMT
#431
If there is a problem with our democracies, it's precisely that they are not democratic enough and too technocratic.

People in power work for their interest. If you consider that the purpose of a state is to serve the people, then the people should be in power. A political system should make the distance that directly separates people from their leaders as thin as possible.

I don't think you can find another legitimacy for the one in power than the people they govern's approval anyway (unless you come with religious argument).

Technocracy is the enemy of modern societies.


Now about Winston Churchill, he is very nice, but I prefer the opinions of most of the average voters than his regarding many many subjects.


On September 13 2011 20:35 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 20:32 DoubleReed wrote:
It sounds more like you're railing against politics in the current political climate. While I hate the anti-intellectualism that's going around nowadays, I'm not actually sure how a 'technocracy' would necessarily make these kinds of decisions any better than what we have now.


Democracy makes such anti-intellectual politics possible. Appealing to people's stupidity doesn't fly when the voters on any given issue are limited to the knowledgeable.

This anti-intellectual climate has nothing to do with democracy, but with the concentration of the medias in few hands, who have a political and economical agenda. Just think of Fox News: it's a problem of collusion between the medias and private interests. Other problem is the degradation of education, and again, that's more of sign that our democracies are too weak (not democratic enough) and that the society is not able to invest in its citizen education anymore.

You address democracy for problems that have more to do with unregulated capitalism, in my opinion. The two don't necessarly work together.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
September 13 2011 11:43 GMT
#432
On September 13 2011 20:35 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 20:32 DoubleReed wrote:
It sounds more like you're railing against politics in the current political climate. While I hate the anti-intellectualism that's going around nowadays, I'm not actually sure how a 'technocracy' would necessarily make these kinds of decisions any better than what we have now.


Democracy makes such anti-intellectual politics possible. Appealing to people's stupidity doesn't fly when the voters on any given issue are limited to the knowledgeable.

Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 20:32 DoubleReed wrote:
What makes you say it wouldn't be deadlocked by economists and businessmen? Just like it is now.


Deadlocks are a result of inadequate political will. Climate scientists recognize the urgency of the situation and would certainly push through legislation to address it, opposition be damned.

Listen to what climate scientists have been saying about the climate change problem and try to guess what they would do if they had the power. The only question would be how to solve the problem, not whether or not the problem exists, or when we need to solve it by. A deadline would be set and they'd come up with the best solution they can by then.


Businessmen and economists have pretty powerful political will, man. They're the ones with the money, too. And economists (and possibly businessmen) are also part of the elite in this case, so shouldn't they have equal say? I'm sure many economists doubt the urgency of global warming.

Do the climate scientists have final say? What if what they do is severely economically detrimental, because they didn't believe the things the economists were saying? Who ends up deciding what to do?
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7886 Posts
September 13 2011 11:49 GMT
#433
On September 13 2011 20:43 DoubleReed wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 20:35 sunprince wrote:
On September 13 2011 20:32 DoubleReed wrote:
It sounds more like you're railing against politics in the current political climate. While I hate the anti-intellectualism that's going around nowadays, I'm not actually sure how a 'technocracy' would necessarily make these kinds of decisions any better than what we have now.


Democracy makes such anti-intellectual politics possible. Appealing to people's stupidity doesn't fly when the voters on any given issue are limited to the knowledgeable.

On September 13 2011 20:32 DoubleReed wrote:
What makes you say it wouldn't be deadlocked by economists and businessmen? Just like it is now.


Deadlocks are a result of inadequate political will. Climate scientists recognize the urgency of the situation and would certainly push through legislation to address it, opposition be damned.

Listen to what climate scientists have been saying about the climate change problem and try to guess what they would do if they had the power. The only question would be how to solve the problem, not whether or not the problem exists, or when we need to solve it by. A deadline would be set and they'd come up with the best solution they can by then.


Businessmen and economists have pretty powerful political will, man. They're the ones with the money, too. And economists (and possibly businessmen) are also part of the elite in this case, so shouldn't they have equal say? I'm sure many economists doubt the urgency of global warming.

Do the climate scientists have final say? What if what they do is severely economically detrimental, because they didn't believe the things the economists were saying? Who ends up deciding what to do?

People should have the final say, but be able to form a non-biaised opinion.

Businessmen have interest to say that climate change doesn't exist, and owe the medias, and therefore, manipulates the opinion.

Conclusion: in a functional democracy, the medias and the financial interests of the businessmen should be separated.


In a nutshell, instead of blaming democracy because stupid people take decision, blame what inside your democracy make people become stupid, namely, propaganda.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Thorakh
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands1788 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 11:53:35
September 13 2011 11:50 GMT
#434
On September 13 2011 20:21 DoubleReed wrote:
Show nested quote +
But why would regular politicians, with no good knowledge in any particular field do a better job? Look at America for example, a lot of politicians are pretty dumb because the general public is too. If half your country doesn't believe in global warming or evolution, you'll get loads of ignorant politicians elected who cannot even seperate state from church and basically ignore their duty to make sure our children will have a decent planet too.


Okay, climate change. What would scientists do about climate change? Do they know the best ways to regulate fossil fuels? Do they need to worry about how regulation might affect businesses and the economy? Oh, maybe we should involve economists and businessmen in the discussion as well. But there are a lot of options of what we could do and a lot of perspectives. We should probably hire somebody to make those kinds of decisions.

Hence, politicians.
Economists are scientists as well, of course they would be included in a technocracy. But yeah, we could hire someone to make the decision, but that person should NOT be elected by the people. Such a person would have to be extremely intelligent and willing to see all sides of the coin. Hence, we're better of with just a gigantic council of experts (which includes everything, from nanoscience to whail experts to historians to free market experts) in every possible field imaginable voting on a subject.

As for climate change and economy. Making sure the world doesn't go to shit is more important than economic growth. Why economy is even a factor in decisions about how to fight climate change is beyond me. Who the fuck cares about economy when we won't even have an economy, like we have now, in a hundred years.
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7886 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 12:02:37
September 13 2011 11:59 GMT
#435
On September 13 2011 20:50 Thorakh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 20:21 DoubleReed wrote:
But why would regular politicians, with no good knowledge in any particular field do a better job? Look at America for example, a lot of politicians are pretty dumb because the general public is too. If half your country doesn't believe in global warming or evolution, you'll get loads of ignorant politicians elected who cannot even seperate state from church and basically ignore their duty to make sure our children will have a decent planet too.


Okay, climate change. What would scientists do about climate change? Do they know the best ways to regulate fossil fuels? Do they need to worry about how regulation might affect businesses and the economy? Oh, maybe we should involve economists and businessmen in the discussion as well. But there are a lot of options of what we could do and a lot of perspectives. We should probably hire somebody to make those kinds of decisions.

Hence, politicians.
Economists are scientists as well, of course they would be included in a technocracy. But yeah, we could hire someone to make the decision, but that person should NOT be elected by the people. Such a person would have to be extremely intelligent and willing to see all sides of the coin. Hence, we're better of with just a gigantic council of experts (which includes everything, from nanoscience to whail experts to historians to free market experts) in every possible field imaginable voting on a subject.

As for climate change and economy. Making sure the world doesn't go to shit is more important than economic growth. Why economy is even a factor in decisions about how to fight climate change is beyond me. Who the fuck cares about economy when we won't even have an economy, like we have now, in a hundred years.

And who decides what is more important? I'm pretty sure there are plenty of people who think making money now is vastly more important than the fact that the planet may no be viable in few centuries.

Now, there are very intelligent people who have all kind of opinion. On what criteria do you chose your leader? Milton Friedman was probably very intelligent and so was Lenin. I wouldn't like to have either of them as my leader, you see?

And if you take economists, bad luck, you have right economists, far right wing economists, left wing economists and far left economist. Who decide which economists have a word to say?

Politics is not about taking the right decision. Politics is about defining how we want society to be. How on earth would "scientists" or "clever people" (everybody is clever and some supposedely clever people are sometimes fucking dumb) have more legitimacy than the people who are being governed to know how they want to live and what is important?

That's silly. What you are all advocating is the right for some people to take decision against the will of the people, ignoring the fact that the reality is complex and that politics is made of choices that are everything but consensual. It has a good name, it's called: a dictatorship.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Thorakh
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands1788 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 12:12:43
September 13 2011 12:07 GMT
#436
And if you take economists, bad luck, you have right economists, far right wing economists, left wing economists and far left economist. Who decide which economists have a word to say?
Every single one of them should get to vote.

The point of a technocracy is not to have a bunch of smart people rule a country, the point is that the general public is stupid and therefore not fit to elect a government.

And as has been said before, it isn't black and white, we could have a hybrid government, half of the government are experts, half of it is chosen by the people. That would already be a hundred times more preferable than what we have now.

And who decides what is more important? I'm pretty sure there are plenty of people who think making money now is vastly more important than the fact that the planet may no be viable in few centuries.
I'm sorry but I'm not going to pay attention to people who think that as they are fucking stupid.

That's silly. What you are all advocating is the right for some people to take decision against the will of the people, ignoring the fact that the reality is complex and that politics is made of choices that are everything but consensual. It has a good name, it's called: a dictatorship.
The people are stupid and do not realise what the right decision is. Also, comparing a technocracy to a dictatorship is laughable since anyone can go to college, get a degree and be able to vote.

We have two options:

- allow intelligent people to vote
- allow everyone to vote

That is the essence of this discussion. A technocracy cannot be worse than a democracy.
bbm
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom1320 Posts
September 13 2011 12:16 GMT
#437
On September 13 2011 21:07 Thorakh wrote:
We have two options:

- allow intelligent people to vote
- allow everyone to vote

That is the essence of this discussion. A technocracy cannot be worse than a democracy.

Except for the part when it excludes everyone is stupid, hence splitting the country into a two-tier system, encouraging the spread of social injustice. The "intelligent" are by and large upper class, and as a result, they'll be encouraged to do good for their friends, and benefit their own kind, surely.

Also, to suggest that anyone can go to college is just silly IMO. There are a myriad of reasons, and they're closely tied to social class. Children to look after due to teen pregnancies. Parents ordering their kids to go to work so they can bring back money for the family immediately. Children in lower class areas go to lower class schools with lower success rates. That's just how it is.
By.Sun or By.Rain, he always delivers
Cytokinesis
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada330 Posts
September 13 2011 12:17 GMT
#438
The problem with democracy isn't with the system, it's with the populous. The solution isn't to change the system, it's to change the population. Increase education so that the general population is more informed. Changing the system might help, but it will NEVER happen. Not only that but it isn't so sure that the technocracy would be better.

At first, it would. It sounds ideal, does it not? It's not that simple. First of all, the motives aren't this cut and dry. I work in a University and I can say without doubt that 95% of the professors I know are extremely selfish when it comes to their work. What happens in a technocracy when an 'expert' publishes a (later) discredited piece and get's elected for it? What happens when a an expert in charge starts publishing false works in order to stay in charge? Who combats this? The jury of his peers within the field? What if it is so convincing that it splits the field?

Don't pretend this doesn't happen, either. You would be a fool to think otherwise. In this supposed environment the experts would have to constantly rotate as well, because this environment fosters technological advancement, doesn't it? Well whoever comes up with the newest technology is the expert in that field. What then?

This creates another problem--how would you classify these experts? Do you even understand how many experts you would require? For instance medical doctor's are (actually) quite poorly informed as far as pharmaceutical are concerned. Then within the pharmaceuticals there are different experts in relation to different structures as well. Are you going to have the expert who is working on new uses for steroids give his advice as far as benzodiazepine's are concerned? Why not ask the expert working on benzo's?

Then of course there is the problem of where these experts come from. Who are the most educated in society? Typically the wealthiest (especially true in the states). So the panel of experts come from a very small pool of people, typically with similar values. Now this itself isn't a problem, but where does the next panel come from? That same pool? Is there time to introduce a new education system in which it could properly create the next generation of experts, or is it unchanging? If it is, then what is to keep education away from those they do not want? I can literally keep sitting here posting problematic questions, but I have other things to do.

Of course I'm being cycnical. "Oh Cytokinesis they are all benevolent loving scientists and experts who want to help society!" Complete and utter bullshit. That is so naive I can't even comprehend it. Like I stated before, 95% of the professors I know are in their research for selfish reasons and would stop at nothing short of killing competitors to get to the top. Is this a problem because of the economy? Sort of. The bottom line is even if you had a panel of amazing experts at the start, corruption would seep in over time.

I think the biggest problem people fail to understand is that the most powerful commodity in the world isn't money, it's knowledge. If you want better elected officials, you have to start by giving better education to the masses. If you want a technocracy, go for it. But it's not going to happen, and if it does it won't be as great as you think.
Ive seen people who dont believe in sleep count sheep with calculators that double as alarm clocks
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7886 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 12:25:55
September 13 2011 12:20 GMT
#439
On September 13 2011 21:07 Thorakh wrote:
Show nested quote +
And if you take economists, bad luck, you have right economists, far right wing economists, left wing economists and far left economist. Who decide which economists have a word to say?
Every single one of them should get to vote.

The point of a technocracy is not to have a bunch of smart people rule a country, the point is that the general public is stupid and is therefore not fit to elect a government.

And as has been said before, it isn't black and white, we could have a hybrid government, half of the government are experts, half of it is chosen by the people. That would already be a hundred times more preferable than what we have now.

Show nested quote +
And who decides what is more important? I'm pretty sure there are plenty of people who think making money now is vastly more important than the fact that the planet may no be viable in few centuries.
I'm sorry but I'm not going to pay attention to people who think that as they are fucking stupid.

Look, the problem is simple: if a decision is taken, I want to be part of it, because it will affect my life.

I am typically the "general public" since I am not a whatever scientist; however,

1- I am the general public and I am not "stupid".

If you think general public is stupid, why don't you ask yourself why the general public is stupid? Why don't you fight the ones that make the general public stupid. We know who they are, it's not hard to find. Instead of despising so much your fellow citizen, you could maybe start by wondering why TV channels or tabloids newspaper are allowed to lie and to serve people an ocean of shit everyday. That's a good start for a functional democracy.

2- I am the general public, and I am affected by the decisions taken

What if a decision is taken that I don't agree with? I would have no right to say anything. Would I feel free? No. Would I find it fair? No. Would I revolt? Yes. I would fucking take a rifle and make a revolution, because not being part of the decisions that affect your life and that you may find very detrimental to you has a name: oppression.

3- I am the general public and only as such am I qualified to take political decisions.

Politics is not a science. Nobody can say that liberalism is better than social democracy, or that free economy is better than regulated market. There is no truth about it. When an economist says that free market is better than regulated market, it's an economical point of view. I can admit it, means, it's better for the economy, but as a citizen, I am against free market for non-economical reasons. What you value in life, what you want for yourself and your country, it has nothing to do with being right or wrong.

The only people who have legitimacy in their political opinions are the ones who are affected. These people are called: citizens, and the power should always come from them.

On September 13 2011 21:07 Thorakh wrote:
We have two options:

- allow intelligent people to vote
- allow everyone to vote

That is the essence of this discussion. A technocracy cannot be worse than a democracy.

It would be much worse.

First, how do you define who is "intelligent"?
IQ? LOL.
Level of studies? I know insensitive fucktards who have PhD, I don't think they would be any better than my building keeper to decide anything.
Why would the "stupid masses" accept decisions they are no part of? That's silly.

Your elitist system seems just very fascist to me.

Everybody has the right to say how the society in which he lives should be.

Would you be part of the people who can decide? Are you intelligent? Am I? Who is?
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 12:25:22
September 13 2011 12:24 GMT
#440
On September 13 2011 20:43 DoubleReed wrote:
Businessmen and economists have pretty powerful political will, man. They're the ones with the money, too. And economists (and possibly businessmen) are also part of the elite in this case, so shouldn't they have equal say? I'm sure many economists doubt the urgency of global warming.

Do the climate scientists have final say? What if what they do is severely economically detrimental, because they didn't believe the things the economists were saying? Who ends up deciding what to do?


Climate scientists have the final say on wheter there is a problem, what needs to be done to address it, and what would happen in various scenarios depending on various attempts to solve it.

In other words, economists run the cost-benefit analysis, but all variables related to climate (e.g. most of the benefit variables) are determined by climate scientists (by contrast, most of the costs variables are determined by economists).

On September 13 2011 20:49 Biff The Understudy wrote:
In a nutshell, instead of blaming democracy because stupid people take decision, blame what inside your democracy make people become stupid, namely, propaganda.


Stupidity is natural, and has been around long since the rise of propaganda and media.
Thorakh
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands1788 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 12:27:17
September 13 2011 12:24 GMT
#441
On September 13 2011 21:16 bbm wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 21:07 Thorakh wrote:
We have two options:

- allow intelligent people to vote
- allow everyone to vote

That is the essence of this discussion. A technocracy cannot be worse than a democracy.

Except for the part when it excludes everyone is stupid, hence splitting the country into a two-tier system, encouraging the spread of social injustice. The "intelligent" are by and large upper class, and as a result, they'll be encouraged to do good for their friends, and benefit their own kind, surely.

Also, to suggest that anyone can go to college is just silly IMO. There are a myriad of reasons, and they're closely tied to social class. Children to look after due to teen pregnancies. Parents ordering their kids to go to work so they can bring back money for the family immediately. Children in lower class areas go to lower class schools with lower success rates. That's just how it is.
People are not inherently stupid (most aren't). School systems would have to be changed, help should be given to those who need it (teen moms) so they can go to school, etc.

How does it creat social injustice when everyone is given an equal chance?

Of course I'm being cycnical. "Oh Cytokinesis they are all benevolent loving scientists and experts who want to help society!" Complete and utter bullshit. That is so naive I can't even comprehend it. Like I stated before, 95% of the professors I know are in their research for selfish reasons and would stop at nothing short of killing competitors to get to the top. Is this a problem because of the economy? Sort of. The bottom line is even if you had a panel of amazing experts at the start, corruption would seep in over time.
Where does it say only one expert in a field is allowed to vote? If the entire scientific community + economists + sociologists + etc. is allowed to vote, how can selfishness enter the system?

If you think general public is stupid, why don't you ask yourself why the general public is stupid? Why don't you fight the ones that make the general public stupid. We know who they are, it's not hard to find. Instead of despising so much your fellow citizen, you could maybe start by wondering why TV channels or tabloids newspaper are allowed to lie and to serve people an ocean of shit everyday. That's a good start for a functional democracy.
Fantastic, I agree, but it isn't going to happen, just like a technocracy is not going to happen.


Everybody has the right to say how the society in which he lives should be.

Would you be part of the people who can decide? Are you intelligent? Am I? Who is?
Some things are not fit for the public to decide, how to handle climate change for example as seen in the USA.
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7886 Posts
September 13 2011 12:28 GMT
#442
On September 13 2011 21:24 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 20:43 DoubleReed wrote:
Businessmen and economists have pretty powerful political will, man. They're the ones with the money, too. And economists (and possibly businessmen) are also part of the elite in this case, so shouldn't they have equal say? I'm sure many economists doubt the urgency of global warming.

Do the climate scientists have final say? What if what they do is severely economically detrimental, because they didn't believe the things the economists were saying? Who ends up deciding what to do?


Climate scientists have the final say on wheter there is a problem, what needs to be done to address it, and what would happen in various scenarios depending on various attempts to solve it.

In other words, economists run the cost-benefit analysis, but all variables related to climate (e.g. most of the benefit variables) are determined by climate scientists (by contrast, most of the costs variables are determined by economists).

Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 20:49 Biff The Understudy wrote:
In a nutshell, instead of blaming democracy because stupid people take decision, blame what inside your democracy make people become stupid, namely, propaganda.


Stupidity is natural, and has been around long since the rise of propaganda and media.

I think people are exceptionally smart and wise when they are not taken into hysterical bullshit.

People make bad decision or are "stupid" when they are manipulated or uneducated. Work on both those aspects and your democracy is very functional. That's not the case today.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Thorakh
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands1788 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 12:31:09
September 13 2011 12:30 GMT
#443
On September 13 2011 21:28 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 21:24 sunprince wrote:
On September 13 2011 20:43 DoubleReed wrote:
Businessmen and economists have pretty powerful political will, man. They're the ones with the money, too. And economists (and possibly businessmen) are also part of the elite in this case, so shouldn't they have equal say? I'm sure many economists doubt the urgency of global warming.

Do the climate scientists have final say? What if what they do is severely economically detrimental, because they didn't believe the things the economists were saying? Who ends up deciding what to do?


Climate scientists have the final say on wheter there is a problem, what needs to be done to address it, and what would happen in various scenarios depending on various attempts to solve it.

In other words, economists run the cost-benefit analysis, but all variables related to climate (e.g. most of the benefit variables) are determined by climate scientists (by contrast, most of the costs variables are determined by economists).

On September 13 2011 20:49 Biff The Understudy wrote:
In a nutshell, instead of blaming democracy because stupid people take decision, blame what inside your democracy make people become stupid, namely, propaganda.


Stupidity is natural, and has been around long since the rise of propaganda and media.

I think people are exceptionally smart and wise when they are not taken into hysterical bullshit.

People make bad decision or are "stupid" when they are manipulated or uneducated. Work on both those aspects and your democracy is very functional. That's not the case today.
The problem is no one is working on that. Who could work on that? The politicians. Who elects the politicians? The people. Who were the problem again? The people.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
September 13 2011 12:32 GMT
#444
On September 13 2011 21:20 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Look, the problem is simple: if a decision is taken, I want to be part of it, because it will affect my life.


The problem is that in some cases, what is in the interest of individuals is not in the interest of society as a whole (the "tragedy of the commons" problem). For example, when people get to be part of spending and taxation decisions, they invariably decide to increase spending and decrease taxes, with disastrous results (see California's proposition system as a good example of democracy in action). It's better for society if decisions are not made in such a way.

On September 13 2011 21:20 Biff The Understudy wrote:
The only people who have legitimacy in their political opinions are the ones who are affected. These people are called: citizens, and the power should always come from them.


These are completely normative statements, and no one is required to agree with you. Most of us who are for technocracy in this thread have observed firsthand what happens when you believe that the power should come from citizens.

On September 13 2011 21:20 Biff The Understudy wrote:
First, how do you define who is "intelligent"?
IQ? LOL.
Level of studies? I know insensitive fucktards who have PhD, I don't think they would be any better than my building keeper to decide anything.


You fail to understand what a technocracy is. It is not a government where only intelligent people are allowed to vote. A techoncracy is a government where only people who have relevant expertise on a subject are allowed to vote.

On September 13 2011 21:20 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Why would the "stupid masses" accept decisions they are no part of? That's silly.


Why do patients accept the advice of their doctors? Their lawyers? Their teachers?

Because in most cases, other people know better than you about something.
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7886 Posts
September 13 2011 12:33 GMT
#445
On September 13 2011 21:24 Thorakh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 21:16 bbm wrote:
On September 13 2011 21:07 Thorakh wrote:
We have two options:

- allow intelligent people to vote
- allow everyone to vote

That is the essence of this discussion. A technocracy cannot be worse than a democracy.

Except for the part when it excludes everyone is stupid, hence splitting the country into a two-tier system, encouraging the spread of social injustice. The "intelligent" are by and large upper class, and as a result, they'll be encouraged to do good for their friends, and benefit their own kind, surely.

Also, to suggest that anyone can go to college is just silly IMO. There are a myriad of reasons, and they're closely tied to social class. Children to look after due to teen pregnancies. Parents ordering their kids to go to work so they can bring back money for the family immediately. Children in lower class areas go to lower class schools with lower success rates. That's just how it is.
People are not inherently stupid (most aren't). School systems would have to be changed, help should be given to those who need it (teen moms) so they can go to school, etc.

How does it creat social injustice when everyone is given an equal chance?

Show nested quote +
Of course I'm being cycnical. "Oh Cytokinesis they are all benevolent loving scientists and experts who want to help society!" Complete and utter bullshit. That is so naive I can't even comprehend it. Like I stated before, 95% of the professors I know are in their research for selfish reasons and would stop at nothing short of killing competitors to get to the top. Is this a problem because of the economy? Sort of. The bottom line is even if you had a panel of amazing experts at the start, corruption would seep in over time.
Where does it say only one expert in a field is allowed to vote? If the entire scientific community + economists + sociologists + etc. is allowed to vote, how can selfishness enter the system?

Show nested quote +
If you think general public is stupid, why don't you ask yourself why the general public is stupid? Why don't you fight the ones that make the general public stupid. We know who they are, it's not hard to find. Instead of despising so much your fellow citizen, you could maybe start by wondering why TV channels or tabloids newspaper are allowed to lie and to serve people an ocean of shit everyday. That's a good start for a functional democracy.
Fantastic, I agree, but it isn't going to happen, just like a technocracy is not going to happen.

Show nested quote +

Everybody has the right to say how the society in which he lives should be.

Would you be part of the people who can decide? Are you intelligent? Am I? Who is?
Some things are not fit for the public to decide, how to handle climate change for example as seen in the USA.

Why do you say it's not going to happen?

Fight Fox News. Fight tabloids newspaper. Support political system that regulates the medias and put limit to the power of private interests. Look at the quality of the media in France and compare to England, and you will see that it's really a political problem. If the Sun existed in France, it would be closed after the first edition.

Public would obviously vote for doing something against the climate if they weren't manipulated. I don't know anybody in France who don't believe in climate change. It's a super-minority. But that's because our system is regulated so that medias can't become the propaganda machine of billionaires such as Murdoch for whom the most important is how many billions he will make next years even if it means the world will collapse.

Fight wild, unregulated capitalism, not democracy, for God sake.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7886 Posts
September 13 2011 12:37 GMT
#446
On September 13 2011 21:32 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 21:20 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Look, the problem is simple: if a decision is taken, I want to be part of it, because it will affect my life.


The problem is that in some cases, what is in the interest of individuals is not in the interest of society as a whole (the "tragedy of the commons" problem). For example, when people get to be part of spending and taxation decisions, they invariably decide to increase spending and decrease taxes, with disastrous results (see California's proposition system as a good example of democracy in action). It's better for society if decisions are not made in such a way.

Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 21:20 Biff The Understudy wrote:
The only people who have legitimacy in their political opinions are the ones who are affected. These people are called: citizens, and the power should always come from them.


These are completely normative statements, and no one is required to agree with you. Most of us who are for technocracy in this thread have observed firsthand what happens when you believe that the power should come from citizens.

Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 21:20 Biff The Understudy wrote:
First, how do you define who is "intelligent"?
IQ? LOL.
Level of studies? I know insensitive fucktards who have PhD, I don't think they would be any better than my building keeper to decide anything.


You fail to understand what a technocracy is. It is not a government where only intelligent people are allowed to vote. A techoncracy is a government where only people who have relevant expertise on a subject are allowed to vote.

Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 21:20 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Why would the "stupid masses" accept decisions they are no part of? That's silly.


Why do patients accept the advice of their doctors? Their lawyers? Their teachers?

Because in most cases, other people know better than you about something.

I think you don't understand.

Politics is not about expertise. It's about how we want to live together. That's not a science, that's life.

There are no life specialists. Some people find America amazing, some find it disgusting. It's taste, view on the world, ideology, sensibility. And nobody has to impose their views on other who wouldn't have a word to say.

No expert can say that freedom of speech à-la US is good or bad. I believe in the second one. I will vote for that in my society. And if it is imposed upon me by whoever, I will make the conclusion that I live in a dictatorship.

Exist technocracy.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
September 13 2011 12:38 GMT
#447
On September 13 2011 21:28 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I think people are exceptionally smart and wise when they are not taken into hysterical bullshit.


This is literally impossible. Only 50% of the population can have above-average intelligence. No matter how smart the general population gets, decisions are always increasingly poor as you allow more people to make decisions.

On September 13 2011 21:28 Biff The Understudy wrote:
People make bad decision or are "stupid" when they are manipulated or uneducated. Work on both those aspects and your democracy is very functional. That's not the case today.


People choose not to be educated on many, many issues. People form bullshit conspiracy theories very much on their own, despite mainstream media telling them otherwise, as these forums demonstrate perfectly well. People always, and have always, made bad decisions about just about everything.

And on top of that, even in a perfect world were people vote intelligently and rationally, there is still the problem of individual interest working against society's interest. It is usually in people's best interests to look after the short term and vote for increased spending and decreased taxes. Taken as a society, this is disastrous.

The whole point of government is that the people give it power in order to manage things that they cannot handle individually. This is true in a democracy or a dictatorship. The only quesiton is how, and to what degree. In a technocracy, it is to a greater degree than a Western liberal democracy, but in a more intelligent manner.
Thorakh
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands1788 Posts
September 13 2011 12:40 GMT
#448
Why am I even replying in my rag tag shit English when sunprince forms well-written pieces that seem like my exact thoughts have materialized.
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7886 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 12:44:03
September 13 2011 12:42 GMT
#449
On September 13 2011 21:38 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 21:28 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I think people are exceptionally smart and wise when they are not taken into hysterical bullshit.


This is literally impossible. Only 50% of the population can have above-average intelligence. No matter how smart the general population gets, decisions are always increasingly poor as you allow more people to make decisions.

Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 21:28 Biff The Understudy wrote:
People make bad decision or are "stupid" when they are manipulated or uneducated. Work on both those aspects and your democracy is very functional. That's not the case today.


People choose not to be educated on many, many issues. People form bullshit conspiracy theories very much on their own, despite mainstream media telling them otherwise, as these forums demonstrate perfectly well. People always, and have always, made bad decisions about just about everything.

And on top of that, even in a perfect world were people vote intelligently and rationally, there is still the problem of individual interest working against society's interest. It is usually in people's best interests to look after the short term and vote for increased spending and decreased taxes. Taken as a society, this is disastrous.

The whole point of government is that the people give it power in order to manage things that they cannot handle individually. This is true in a democracy or a dictatorship. The only quesiton is how, and to what degree. In a technocracy, it is to a greater degree than a Western liberal democracy, but in a more intelligent manner.

Hey, intelligence is not a scale. It's not about 50% more and 50% less. It's about knowing that humans are potentially unlimited beings and believing that they can take decisions for themselves and their community.

My sister is not as logical as me but she has fantastic sensibility and understand people much better than I do. Should she be out of political decisions because she is "stupid"? Many "experts" are insensitive assholes to whom I would never give any power. You see, my sister is a much better voter.

The more I think about your despising discourse the most I find it stupid.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
September 13 2011 12:42 GMT
#450
On September 13 2011 21:37 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I think you don't understand.


No, you don't understand. You are completely naive in matters of political science, political theory, and game theory. All you're doing is regurgitating the "Derr, democracy is good, herp-derp" that has been ingrained into you from an early age.

On September 13 2011 21:37 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Politics is not about expertise. It's about how we want to live together. That's not a science, that's life.


And some of us want our lives to be guided by intelligence and rationality instead of the braindead masses.

On September 13 2011 21:37 Biff The Understudy wrote:
There are no life specialists. Some people find America amazing, some find it disgusting. It's taste, view on the world, ideology, sensibility. And nobody has to impose their views on other who wouldn't have a word to say.


And yet you come here and impose your views that "Democracy is the best, everyone should support it, democracy is a right, blah blah blah" on the rest of us.

On September 13 2011 21:37 Biff The Understudy wrote:
No expert can say that freedom of speech à-la US is good or bad. I believe in the second one. I will vote for that in my society. And if it is imposed upon me by whoever, I will make the conclusion that I live in a dictatorship.


Then you are either incapable or unwilling to understand what a dictatorship is. And you are also pitifully unaware of how political systems, including Western liberal democracies, actually work.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 12:51:46
September 13 2011 12:45 GMT
#451
On September 13 2011 21:42 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Hey, intelligence is not a scale. It's not about 50% more and 50% less. It's about knowing that humans are potentially unlimited beings and believing that they can take decisions for themselves and their community.


Let me explain this as clearly as I can since you're having difficulty understanding (and possibly due to a language barrier).

When you need a medical opinion, do you ask random people on the street, or do you see a doctor? When you need legal advice, do you ask random people on the street, or do you see a lawyer? When you want to build a bridge, do you ask random people on the street, or do you talk to an engineer?

In a democracy, you're basically asking random people on the street. In a technocracy, you ask the relevant expert. If you would rather ask random people, then that's cool, but don't come in here expecting us to think you're smart for doing that.

On September 13 2011 21:42 Biff The Understudy wrote:
My sister is not as logical as me but she has fantastic sensibility and understand people much better than I do. Should she be out of political decisions because she is "stupid"?


If your sister understands people better than you do, you should listen to her advice when it comes to matters of people. And likewise, she should listen to your advice on logical matters. Does that not make sense to you?
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7886 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 13:01:40
September 13 2011 12:52 GMT
#452
On September 13 2011 21:42 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 21:37 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I think you don't understand.


No, you don't understand. You are completely naive in matters of political science, political theory, and game theory. All you're doing is regurgitating the "Derr, democracy is good, herp-derp" that has been ingrained into you from an early age.

Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 21:37 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Politics is not about expertise. It's about how we want to live together. That's not a science, that's life.


And some of us want our lives to be guided by intelligence and rationality instead of the braindead masses.

Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 21:37 Biff The Understudy wrote:
There are no life specialists. Some people find America amazing, some find it disgusting. It's taste, view on the world, ideology, sensibility. And nobody has to impose their views on other who wouldn't have a word to say.


And yet you come here and impose your views that "Democracy is the best, everyone should support it, democracy is a right, blah blah blah" on the rest of us.

Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 21:37 Biff The Understudy wrote:
No expert can say that freedom of speech à-la US is good or bad. I believe in the second one. I will vote for that in my society. And if it is imposed upon me by whoever, I will make the conclusion that I live in a dictatorship.


Then you are either incapable or unwilling to understand what a dictatorship is. And you are also pitifully unaware of how political systems, including Western liberal democracies, actually work.

Hey darling, on top of being a musician, I study philosophy in a politically-oriented university (Paris-Nanterre option sociology-politics). So if we talk of expertise, and if you like it so much, maybe you shouldn't disqualify so badly my opinion.

I wonder if you consider yourself as part of the "braindead masses" or if you think you are part of the elite. It's such an amusing thought.

I have something for you, it's from someone who basically funded scientific rationality:

"Good sense is, of all things among men, the most equally distributed; for every one thinks himself so abundantly provided with it, that those even who are the most difficult to satisfy in everything else, do not usually desire a larger measure of this quality than they already possess. And in this it is not likely that all are mistaken the conviction is rather to be held as testifying that the power of judging aright and of distinguishing truth from error, which is properly what is called good sense or reason, is by nature equal in all men; and that the diversity of our opinions, consequently, does not arise from some being endowed with a larger share of reason than others, but solely from this, that we conduct our thoughts along different ways, and do not fix our attention on the same objects. For to be possessed of a vigorous mind is not enough; the prime requisite is rightly to apply it. The greatest minds, as they are capable of the highest excellences, are open likewise to the greatest aberrations; and those who travel very slowly may yet make far greater progress, provided they keep always to the straight road, than those who, while they run, forsake it."

On September 13 2011 21:45 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 21:42 Biff The Understudy wrote:
My sister is not as logical as me but she has fantastic sensibility and understand people much better than I do. Should she be out of political decisions because she is "stupid"?


If your sister understands people better than you do, you should listen to her advice when it comes to matters of people. And likewise, she should listen to your advice on logical matters. Does that not make sense to you?

No. I think she is just as smart as me if no more, although it is an other form of intelligence, and I listen to her in any circumstances. I think she, as a citizen, would take much better decisions on economic areas that, let say, Milton Friedman, who, with all his expertise, has in my opinion done irreversible damages to Western world, because he lacked some of the qualities my sister has.

You see, the reason it doesn't work: I am sure you are a smart person, but I really wouldn't like to have you as a leader, for any decision at all. I am ok for giving you a vote in a democratic society, though, since the decision will affect you as well.

have a good one.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
NeonFox
Profile Joined January 2011
2373 Posts
September 13 2011 12:59 GMT
#453
If this solves the rampant problem that I see in France and I suppose exists in most democracies, that is that the minister of environment is two month later the minister of culture, and then two months later the minister of commerce ect then it seems a good system. Seing bad ministers jump around to the head of cabinets they have no clue or are not interested in is bullshit.

But since it advocates giving the same power to a smaller group, the danger is that the less people in charge the easier it is to buy them.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
September 13 2011 13:01 GMT
#454
On September 13 2011 21:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Hey darling, on top of being a musician, I study philosophy in a politically-oriented university. So if we talk of expertise, and if you like it so much, maybe you shouldn't disqualify so badly my opinion.


I can only evaluate your expertise based on what you write here. And thus far, its rather unimpressive nature suggess you know very little on the subject.

On September 13 2011 21:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I wonder if you consider yourself as part of the "braindead masses" or if you think you are part of the elite. It's such an amusing thought.


I would never think to presume that I know more than a physician about medicine, nor an engineer about construction. But for some reason, you think that you and other citizens do.

I justifiably consider myself an elite in some subjects (you know, the ones I have actually studied in detail), and braindead in others.

On September 13 2011 21:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:
"Good sense is, of all things among men, the most equally distributed; for every one thinks himself so abundantly provided with it, that those even who are the most difficult to satisfy in everything else, do not usually desire a larger measure of this quality than they already possess. And in this it is not likely that all are mistaken the conviction is rather to be held as testifying that the power of judging aright and of distinguishing truth from error, which is properly what is called good sense or reason, is by nature equal in all men; and that the diversity of our opinions, consequently, does not arise from some being endowed with a larger share of reason than others, but solely from this, that we conduct our thoughts along different ways, and do not fix our attention on the same objects. For to be possessed of a vigorous mind is not enough; the prime requisite is rightly to apply it. The greatest minds, as they are capable of the highest excellences, are open likewise to the greatest aberrations; and those who travel very slowly may yet make far greater progress, provided they keep always to the straight road, than those who, while they run, forsake it."


Congratulations for pulling a quote from Descartes, which wasn't even of any signifcance to the work it came from, in order to insinuate that I'm not as intelligent as I think I am. Does that make you feel smart?

Ironically, you might do well to consider the quote yourself. If people tend to think they are smarter than they are, that makes democracy a terrible idea.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
September 13 2011 13:04 GMT
#455
On September 13 2011 21:59 NeonFox wrote:
If this solves the rampant problem that I see in France and I suppose exists in most democracies, that is that the minister of environment is two month later the minister of culture, and then two months later the minister of commerce ect then it seems a good system. Seing bad ministers jump around to the head of cabinets they have no clue or are not interested in is bullshit.


Haven't you heard from your fellow countryman Biff, though? That's what the people want, so it's a good thing!

On September 13 2011 21:59 NeonFox wrote:
But since it advocates giving the same power to a smaller group, the danger is that the less people in charge the easier it is to buy them.


It would probably be a larger group. There are far more relevant technical experts on various issues than there are politicians, I would guess.
bbm
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom1320 Posts
September 13 2011 13:06 GMT
#456
On September 13 2011 22:01 sunprince wrote:
Ironically, you might do well to consider the quote yourself. If people tend to think they are smarter than they are, that makes democracy a terrible idea.


Sorry, can you explain to this particular member of the braindead masses why people's own opinion of themselves would affect democracy?
By.Sun or By.Rain, he always delivers
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 13:13:27
September 13 2011 13:12 GMT
#457
On September 13 2011 22:06 bbm wrote:
Sorry, can you explain to this particular member of the braindead masses why people's own opinion of themselves would affect democracy?


People make decisions in contravention of expert opinion because they think they know better, thereby resulting in terrible democratic decisions. People vote for politicians without doing any research, because they feel that they are smart enough to decide whether a politican seems respectable to them. Etc.

There majority of the people in the United States, for example, do not believe in evolution, because they think they are smarter than biologists. Their votes reflect that, and hence, there have been problems with schools (in the United States, school boards and superintendents are democratically elected) downplaying evolution and instead teaching intelligent design, which is effectively creation science.
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7886 Posts
September 13 2011 13:13 GMT
#458
On September 13 2011 22:01 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 21:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Hey darling, on top of being a musician, I study philosophy in a politically-oriented university. So if we talk of expertise, and if you like it so much, maybe you shouldn't disqualify so badly my opinion.


I can only evaluate your expertise based on what you write here. And thus far, its rather unimpressive nature suggess you know very little on the subject.

That means that my expertise doesn't make me right, and therefore that your system is wrong.

On September 13 2011 22:01 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 21:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I wonder if you consider yourself as part of the "braindead masses" or if you think you are part of the elite. It's such an amusing thought.


I would never think to presume that I know more than a physician about medicine, nor an engineer about construction. But for some reason, you think that you and other citizens do.

I justifiably consider myself an elite in some subjects (you know, the ones I have actually studied in detail), and braindead in others.

Pity that choosing if free-speech is good or not, or if everybody has the right to a good healthcare regardless of their wealth, or if TV channel should be nationalized or privatized, etc etc etc... has nothing to do with curing a disease or building a house, where the objective is clearly defined and therefore subject to the expertise of a specialist.

If you find what is the purpose of life, and therefore how society should objectively be, congratulation, you have solved human thought. If you haven't, please don't make loosy comparisons.

On September 13 2011 22:01 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 21:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:
"Good sense is, of all things among men, the most equally distributed; for every one thinks himself so abundantly provided with it, that those even who are the most difficult to satisfy in everything else, do not usually desire a larger measure of this quality than they already possess. And in this it is not likely that all are mistaken the conviction is rather to be held as testifying that the power of judging aright and of distinguishing truth from error, which is properly what is called good sense or reason, is by nature equal in all men; and that the diversity of our opinions, consequently, does not arise from some being endowed with a larger share of reason than others, but solely from this, that we conduct our thoughts along different ways, and do not fix our attention on the same objects. For to be possessed of a vigorous mind is not enough; the prime requisite is rightly to apply it. The greatest minds, as they are capable of the highest excellences, are open likewise to the greatest aberrations; and those who travel very slowly may yet make far greater progress, provided they keep always to the straight road, than those who, while they run, forsake it."


Congratulations for pulling a quote from Descartes, which wasn't even of any signifcance to the work it came from, in order to insinuate that I'm not as intelligent as I think I am. Does that make you feel smart?

Ironically, you might do well to consider the quote yourself. If people tend to think they are smarter than they are, that makes democracy a terrible idea.

I think you are like everybody: you think you are smarter than average (you are definitely not part of the despised "braindead masses") and that everybody else is stupid. So many people think it, it's really comical.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
RageBot
Profile Joined November 2010
Israel1530 Posts
September 13 2011 13:19 GMT
#459
On September 13 2011 21:28 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 21:24 sunprince wrote:
On September 13 2011 20:43 DoubleReed wrote:
Businessmen and economists have pretty powerful political will, man. They're the ones with the money, too. And economists (and possibly businessmen) are also part of the elite in this case, so shouldn't they have equal say? I'm sure many economists doubt the urgency of global warming.

Do the climate scientists have final say? What if what they do is severely economically detrimental, because they didn't believe the things the economists were saying? Who ends up deciding what to do?


Climate scientists have the final say on wheter there is a problem, what needs to be done to address it, and what would happen in various scenarios depending on various attempts to solve it.

In other words, economists run the cost-benefit analysis, but all variables related to climate (e.g. most of the benefit variables) are determined by climate scientists (by contrast, most of the costs variables are determined by economists).

On September 13 2011 20:49 Biff The Understudy wrote:
In a nutshell, instead of blaming democracy because stupid people take decision, blame what inside your democracy make people become stupid, namely, propaganda.


Stupidity is natural, and has been around long since the rise of propaganda and media.

I think people are exceptionally smart and wise when they are not taken into hysterical bullshit.

People make bad decision or are "stupid" when they are manipulated or uneducated. Work on both those aspects and your democracy is very functional. That's not the case today.


No, the average IQ is 100, that means that 50% of human beings have IQ smaller than 100.
However, no one is to say that 100 IQ is "smart", pepole with IQ lower than 110 usually can't graduate of collage, and even these pepole aren't that intelligent.
Pepole get to the point where they are considered "intelligent" when they have IQ higher than 120 (these pepole are called "gifted" by the ordinary population), and these pepole are about 20-25% of the population.
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7886 Posts
September 13 2011 13:20 GMT
#460
On September 13 2011 22:19 RageBot wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 21:28 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On September 13 2011 21:24 sunprince wrote:
On September 13 2011 20:43 DoubleReed wrote:
Businessmen and economists have pretty powerful political will, man. They're the ones with the money, too. And economists (and possibly businessmen) are also part of the elite in this case, so shouldn't they have equal say? I'm sure many economists doubt the urgency of global warming.

Do the climate scientists have final say? What if what they do is severely economically detrimental, because they didn't believe the things the economists were saying? Who ends up deciding what to do?


Climate scientists have the final say on wheter there is a problem, what needs to be done to address it, and what would happen in various scenarios depending on various attempts to solve it.

In other words, economists run the cost-benefit analysis, but all variables related to climate (e.g. most of the benefit variables) are determined by climate scientists (by contrast, most of the costs variables are determined by economists).

On September 13 2011 20:49 Biff The Understudy wrote:
In a nutshell, instead of blaming democracy because stupid people take decision, blame what inside your democracy make people become stupid, namely, propaganda.


Stupidity is natural, and has been around long since the rise of propaganda and media.

I think people are exceptionally smart and wise when they are not taken into hysterical bullshit.

People make bad decision or are "stupid" when they are manipulated or uneducated. Work on both those aspects and your democracy is very functional. That's not the case today.


No, the average IQ is 100, that means that 50% of human beings have IQ smaller than 100.
However, no one is to say that 100 IQ is "smart", pepole with IQ lower than 110 usually can't graduate of collage, and even these pepole aren't that intelligent.
Pepole get to the point where they are considered "intelligent" when they have IQ higher than 120 (these pepole are called "gifted" by the ordinary population), and these pepole are about 20-25% of the population.

IQ really proves one thing about intelligence: it's that people who invented it are really fucking dumb.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
September 13 2011 13:23 GMT
#461
On September 13 2011 21:45 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 21:42 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Hey, intelligence is not a scale. It's not about 50% more and 50% less. It's about knowing that humans are potentially unlimited beings and believing that they can take decisions for themselves and their community.


Let me explain this as clearly as I can since you're having difficulty understanding (and possibly due to a language barrier).

When you need a medical opinion, do you ask random people on the street, or do you see a doctor? When you need legal advice, do you ask random people on the street, or do you see a lawyer? When you want to build a bridge, do you ask random people on the street, or do you talk to an engineer?

In a democracy, you're basically asking random people on the street. In a technocracy, you ask the relevant expert. If you would rather ask random people, then that's cool, but don't come in here expecting us to think you're smart for doing that.

Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 21:42 Biff The Understudy wrote:
My sister is not as logical as me but she has fantastic sensibility and understand people much better than I do. Should she be out of political decisions because she is "stupid"?


If your sister understands people better than you do, you should listen to her advice when it comes to matters of people. And likewise, she should listen to your advice on logical matters. Does that not make sense to you?



So what would your sorting out process be when experts from different fields disagree? How are funds allocated? The medical expert in the technocracy may want new medical equipment because the machine saves lives. The economist may decide that the equpment is too expensive and not allocate funds to their production.

This is a political question between income and health. Since, ultimately it is the people that have to live with either having less money or less health would it not be good for their views to be taken into account? This is why a democracy works. If you put experts in charge they all want what is best for their field... but they can't all get what they want.

Politics is not about technical things - congress doesn't decide if a new drug is safe or not the FDA (filled with experts) does. Politics is about resolving disputes between 'who gets what' in a way that society can live with.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
September 13 2011 13:23 GMT
#462
On September 13 2011 22:13 Biff The Understudy wrote:
That means that my expertise doesn't make me right, and therefore that your system is wrong.


To the contrary, I am asserting that you are not an expert. Show me a PhD in political science and we'll talk about that.

On September 13 2011 22:13 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Pity that choosing if free-speech is good or not, or if everybody has the right to a good healthcare regardless of their wealth, or if TV channel should be nationalized or privatized, etc etc etc... has nothing to do with curing a disease or building a house, where the objective is clearly defined and therefore subject to the expertise of a specialist.


Free speech is a political science issue, universal health care is a public health issue, and the nationalization/privatization of a TV channel is a political science issue. We have experts for all of those, whether or not you're aware of them.

Cost-benefit analyses can be made for all of those. The preferences of the citizens certainly affects that as well, but the point is that there is a scientific way to figure things out. Just because you haven't figure this out doesn't mean other people haven't.

On September 13 2011 22:13 Biff The Understudy wrote:
If you find what is the purpose of life, and therefore how society should objectively be, congratulation, you have solved human thought. If you haven't, please don't make loosy comparisons.


The fact that some issues are not solvable by technical expertise does not change the fact that most issues are. And yet for some reason, you refuse to consider the latter fact in your utterly dogmatic concentration on the former.

On September 13 2011 22:13 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I think you are like everybody: you think you are smarter than average (you are definitely not part of the despised "braindead masses") and that everybody else is stupid. So many people think it, it's really comical.


Coming from the person who comes in here throwing around argumentums ad ignorantiam, it really is comical.
MadNeSs
Profile Joined March 2007
Denmark1507 Posts
September 13 2011 13:27 GMT
#463
So how do we decide who'll be the representatives..??
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
September 13 2011 13:28 GMT
#464
On September 13 2011 22:23 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
So what would your sorting out process be when experts from different fields disagree? How are funds allocated? The medical expert in the technocracy may want new medical equipment because the machine saves lives. The economist may decide that the equpment is too expensive and not allocate funds to their production.


The economist doesn't just make the decision on a whim. He runs a cost-benefit analysis showing that the amount of lives saved does not justify the cost.

On September 13 2011 22:23 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
This is a political question between income and health. Since, ultimately it is the people that have to live with either having less money or less health would it not be good for their views to be taken into account?


No, because everyone who pays disproportionately high taxes votes against it (and leverages their significant power to manipulate others into voting with them) while people who pay disproportionately low taxes tend to vote for it. Instead, economists should be looking at the benefits and costs of universal or socialized healthcare, and determining scientifically whether it's best for society.

On September 13 2011 22:23 JonnyBNoHo wrote:This is why a democracy works.


Except it doesn't.
TedJustice
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada1324 Posts
September 13 2011 13:29 GMT
#465
I went into this thread hoping it would be about some kind of state controlled by technology itself. Like a robot overlord, except less dramatic.

That would be my ideal option since it's impossible for it to be biased. You either keep up with the system or you don't.

But the technocracy idea sounds like kind of a bad idea. Science should be an impartial field that isn't swayed by things like power and money. Technocracy is just asking for all kinds of conspiracies.

What we really need for a better democracy is better, affordable education.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 13:31:04
September 13 2011 13:29 GMT
#466
On September 13 2011 22:27 MadNeSs wrote:
So how do we decide who'll be the representatives..??


Most first-world nations already have national academies. You can read the link to see how they're selected.
Azera
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
3800 Posts
September 13 2011 13:31 GMT
#467
Hmm... This Technocracy thing is rather intriguing to me. I have never heard of this style of political ruling before (always Democracy, Republican, Communism, Autocracy). I don't know much, but it seems that my political views match with this "Technocracy".

Can somebody send me a PM in reply where I can read more about Technocracy? (Books mostly, I can read about it on Wikipedia, but I don't trust the Internet for such things)
Check out some great music made by TLers - http://bit.ly/QXYhdb , by intrigue. http://bit.ly/RTjpOR , by ohsea.toc.
Gummy
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2180 Posts
September 13 2011 13:32 GMT
#468
On September 13 2011 22:29 TedJustice wrote:
I went into this thread hoping it would be about some kind of state controlled by technology itself. Like a robot overlord, except less dramatic.

That would be my ideal option since it's impossible for it to be biased. You either keep up with the system or you don't.

But the technocracy idea sounds like kind of a bad idea. Science should be an impartial field that isn't swayed by things like power and money. Technocracy is just asking for all kinds of conspiracies.

What we really need for a better democracy is better, affordable education.

Jesus wouldn't have wanted us to worship the false idols created by man. If we were to allow machines to make policy decisions for us, we would surely be beset by wrathful acts of God punishing us for our blasphemy.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ There are three kinds of people in the world: those who can count and those who can't.
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7886 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 13:41:22
September 13 2011 13:35 GMT
#469
On September 13 2011 22:23 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 22:13 Biff The Understudy wrote:
That means that my expertise doesn't make me right, and therefore that your system is wrong.


To the contrary, I am asserting that you are not an expert. Show me a PhD in political science and we'll talk about that.

Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 22:13 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Pity that choosing if free-speech is good or not, or if everybody has the right to a good healthcare regardless of their wealth, or if TV channel should be nationalized or privatized, etc etc etc... has nothing to do with curing a disease or building a house, where the objective is clearly defined and therefore subject to the expertise of a specialist.


Free speech is a political science issue, universal health care is a public health issue, and the nationalization/privatization of a TV channel is a political science issue. We have experts for all of those, whether or not you're aware of them.

Cost-benefit analyses can be made for all of those. The preferences of the citizens certainly affects that as well, but the point is that there is a scientific way to figure things out. Just because you haven't figure this out doesn't mean other people haven't.

Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 22:13 Biff The Understudy wrote:
If you find what is the purpose of life, and therefore how society should objectively be, congratulation, you have solved human thought. If you haven't, please don't make loosy comparisons.


The fact that some issues are not solvable by technical expertise does not change the fact that most issues are. And yet for some reason, you refuse to consider the latter fact in your utterly dogmatic concentration on the former.

Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 22:13 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I think you are like everybody: you think you are smarter than average (you are definitely not part of the despised "braindead masses") and that everybody else is stupid. So many people think it, it's really comical.


Coming from the person who comes in here throwing around argumentums ad ignorantiam, it really is comical.

Ouch. You don't understand irony.

I don't think my "expertise" makes me any more qualified than anybody here to talk about anything. Otherwise, I would defend technocracy, right?

Nice to have introduced "political science". So free speech is decided by political scientists.

L. O. L.

A political scientist is someone who study the political tendencies, not someone who is specialized in political questions. A political scientist will tell you about the difference between this and that kind of constitution and how it affects political tendencies, not if free speech is good or not.

And I lack expertise. Jesus.

Universal healthcare is not about what is the best way to cure people, it's about who can benefit medicines and on what circumstances. Oie. Nothing to do with science, it's politics again. So, what's the name again of the scientist who decide who has what right?

Oh yeah, political science again.

In fact all these questions are political, and obviously, "political science" as you mean it doesn't exist at all because it doesn't even mean anything, since it has nothing to do with science or expertise but with choices, etc etc... For example; US free speech is not "better" than French free speech. It's different, has different implications, and are a different way to live and a different relationship to the public and the private sphere, and all come together with a different understanding of freedom.

You think there are objective specialists for that? What does that even mean?


Political scientist. Seriously. I think Hitler was what you understand by political scientist: someone who is specialized in taking political decisions. I call that a dictator, but let's not start to discuss semantics, huhu?
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
JesusOurSaviour
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
September 13 2011 13:37 GMT
#470
On September 13 2011 22:32 Gummy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 22:29 TedJustice wrote:
I went into this thread hoping it would be about some kind of state controlled by technology itself. Like a robot overlord, except less dramatic.

That would be my ideal option since it's impossible for it to be biased. You either keep up with the system or you don't.

But the technocracy idea sounds like kind of a bad idea. Science should be an impartial field that isn't swayed by things like power and money. Technocracy is just asking for all kinds of conspiracies.

What we really need for a better democracy is better, affordable education.

Jesus wouldn't have wanted us to worship the false idols created by man. If we were to allow machines to make policy decisions for us, we would surely be beset by wrathful acts of God punishing us for our blasphemy.
Dunno if you're trolling, sounds like you are. God doesn't "punish" or deal out His righteous judgement until you die and are summoned to Him in the Day of the LORD. But yea - we are to rule this dominion according to two principles: Love God and love man. When these two principles are not followed, all hell breaks loose baby~~
5ukkub
Profile Joined September 2009
Poland507 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 13:45:25
September 13 2011 13:40 GMT
#471
I agree with sunprince.

For example:
Let's assume, that the majority chooses the president in an election, because he said he will give the most part of govermental money to a "good cause" like poor families, ill or elders, etc. and on top of that, he will lower the taxes!

In other country, people chooses a president that said he will try to improve the law to ensure that
monetary market won't be as sensitive to manipulation, he would also make sure that schools are neutral and aren't allowed to teach lies, but only proven knowledge.
But to acheve it, taxes must be raised.

Which president do you think is better and which people made their election decision based on reason and not on feelings?

And let's face it... The first types of people and presidents are the vast majority...
Rationalism - Don't take evereything what you hear as a fact! Thinking process makes us human.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 13:44:09
September 13 2011 13:41 GMT
#472
On September 13 2011 22:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
A political scientist is someone who study the political tendencies, not someone who is specialized in political questions. A political scientist will tell you about the difference between this and that kind of constitution and how it affects political tendencies, not if free speech is good or not.


There are tangible benefits and drawbacks to free speech. Political scientists with an emphasis on comparative politics understand them quite well. Just for the record, it comes down in favor of free speech for the most part.

On September 13 2011 22:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
And I lack expertise. Jesus.


You really, really do.

On September 13 2011 22:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Universal healthcare is not about what is the best way to cure people, it's about who can benefit medicines and on what circumstances. Oie. Nothing to do with science, it's politics again. So, what's the name again of the scientist who decide who has what right?


You assume that universal healthcare is a human right. That's a bullshit normative way of looking at it. People deciding that things are "human rights" are simply a way of side-stepping a real analysis of issues. The U.N. declaring internet a "human right" in no way impacts the fact that you can look at the tangible costs and benefits of universal internet access.

On September 13 2011 22:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Political scientist. Seriously. I think Hitler was what you understand by political scientist: someone who is specialized in taking political decisions. I call that a dictator, but let's not start to discuss semantics, huhu?


A political scientist is a person who studies politics. A dictator is a ruler who assumes sole and absolute power. If you can't see the difference between the two, you really are as uninformed as you've been coming off in this thread.
Gummy
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2180 Posts
September 13 2011 13:43 GMT
#473
On September 13 2011 22:37 JesusOurSaviour wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 22:32 Gummy wrote:
On September 13 2011 22:29 TedJustice wrote:
I went into this thread hoping it would be about some kind of state controlled by technology itself. Like a robot overlord, except less dramatic.

That would be my ideal option since it's impossible for it to be biased. You either keep up with the system or you don't.

But the technocracy idea sounds like kind of a bad idea. Science should be an impartial field that isn't swayed by things like power and money. Technocracy is just asking for all kinds of conspiracies.

What we really need for a better democracy is better, affordable education.

Jesus wouldn't have wanted us to worship the false idols created by man. If we were to allow machines to make policy decisions for us, we would surely be beset by wrathful acts of God punishing us for our blasphemy.
Dunno if you're trolling, sounds like you are. God doesn't "punish" or deal out His righteous judgement until you die and are summoned to Him in the Day of the LORD. But yea - we are to rule this dominion according to two principles: Love God and love man. When these two principles are not followed, all hell breaks loose baby~~

You seem like one of those Revisionist believers who believe there is some wiggle room in the tablets given to Moses on the Mountain or that there is room for liberal interpretation of the Holy Scriptures. I am not one to judge, but I'll see you in hell. Oh wait no I won't, because I am pre-ordained a spot in heaven where I will bask the the glory of Him for all eternity while your soul burns. I pray that you will see the error in your ways so that you may escape the insufferable, eternal damnation to which the devil tempts you.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ There are three kinds of people in the world: those who can count and those who can't.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
September 13 2011 13:44 GMT
#474
On September 13 2011 22:43 Gummy wrote:
You seem like one of those Revisionist believers who believe there is some wiggle room in the tablets given to Moses on the Mountain or that there is room for liberal interpretation of the Holy Scriptures. I am not one to judge, but I'll see you in hell. Oh wait no I won't, because I am pre-ordained a spot in heaven where I will bask the the glory of Him for all eternity while your soul burns. I pray that you will see the error in your ways so that you may escape the insufferable, eternal damnation to which the devil tempts you.


While this is slightly amusing, could we please stop derailing the thread?
archangel967
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada111 Posts
September 13 2011 13:44 GMT
#475
No. The same things would happen.

The problem is always how you select those in power. The criteria can be changed to fit any person so those who are sufficiently motivated (typically by self gain, not by altruism) will always end up in power with their friends.
When you're ahead, get further ahead.
TedJustice
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada1324 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 13:46:10
September 13 2011 13:45 GMT
#476
On September 13 2011 22:32 Gummy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 22:29 TedJustice wrote:
I went into this thread hoping it would be about some kind of state controlled by technology itself. Like a robot overlord, except less dramatic.

That would be my ideal option since it's impossible for it to be biased. You either keep up with the system or you don't.

But the technocracy idea sounds like kind of a bad idea. Science should be an impartial field that isn't swayed by things like power and money. Technocracy is just asking for all kinds of conspiracies.

What we really need for a better democracy is better, affordable education.

Jesus wouldn't have wanted us to worship the false idols created by man. If we were to allow machines to make policy decisions for us, we would surely be beset by wrathful acts of God punishing us for our blasphemy.

Do you worship the president? Do you worship your car or your computer? Do you worship the internet? No. They're just things designed to make our lives easier. Why not have technology also make political decisions, if it were able to? If an artificial intelligence could be designed to analyze our needs and make decisions, keep track of money, jobs, etc, then pretty much all problems associated with politics would disappear.

It's not an immediately attainable goal, but it's something to work toward in the distant future.
5ukkub
Profile Joined September 2009
Poland507 Posts
September 13 2011 13:52 GMT
#477
On September 13 2011 22:45 TedJustice wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 22:32 Gummy wrote:
On September 13 2011 22:29 TedJustice wrote:
I went into this thread hoping it would be about some kind of state controlled by technology itself. Like a robot overlord, except less dramatic.

That would be my ideal option since it's impossible for it to be biased. You either keep up with the system or you don't.

But the technocracy idea sounds like kind of a bad idea. Science should be an impartial field that isn't swayed by things like power and money. Technocracy is just asking for all kinds of conspiracies.

What we really need for a better democracy is better, affordable education.

Jesus wouldn't have wanted us to worship the false idols created by man. If we were to allow machines to make policy decisions for us, we would surely be beset by wrathful acts of God punishing us for our blasphemy.

Do you worship the president? Do you worship your car or your computer? Do you worship the internet? No. They're just things designed to make our lives easier. Why not have technology also make political decisions, if it were able to? If an artificial intelligence could be designed to analyze our needs and make decisions, keep track of money, jobs, etc, then pretty much all problems associated with politics would disappear.

It's not an immediately attainable goal, but it's something to work toward in the distant future.


I hope it will never happen.
AI would at some point assume, that to preserve humanity, the humanity itself must be tainted, and who can possibly imagine, what AI would do to us then...

Rationalism - Don't take evereything what you hear as a fact! Thinking process makes us human.
RageBot
Profile Joined November 2010
Israel1530 Posts
September 13 2011 13:56 GMT
#478
On September 13 2011 22:20 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 22:19 RageBot wrote:
On September 13 2011 21:28 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On September 13 2011 21:24 sunprince wrote:
On September 13 2011 20:43 DoubleReed wrote:
Businessmen and economists have pretty powerful political will, man. They're the ones with the money, too. And economists (and possibly businessmen) are also part of the elite in this case, so shouldn't they have equal say? I'm sure many economists doubt the urgency of global warming.

Do the climate scientists have final say? What if what they do is severely economically detrimental, because they didn't believe the things the economists were saying? Who ends up deciding what to do?


Climate scientists have the final say on wheter there is a problem, what needs to be done to address it, and what would happen in various scenarios depending on various attempts to solve it.

In other words, economists run the cost-benefit analysis, but all variables related to climate (e.g. most of the benefit variables) are determined by climate scientists (by contrast, most of the costs variables are determined by economists).

On September 13 2011 20:49 Biff The Understudy wrote:
In a nutshell, instead of blaming democracy because stupid people take decision, blame what inside your democracy make people become stupid, namely, propaganda.


Stupidity is natural, and has been around long since the rise of propaganda and media.

I think people are exceptionally smart and wise when they are not taken into hysterical bullshit.

People make bad decision or are "stupid" when they are manipulated or uneducated. Work on both those aspects and your democracy is very functional. That's not the case today.


No, the average IQ is 100, that means that 50% of human beings have IQ smaller than 100.
However, no one is to say that 100 IQ is "smart", pepole with IQ lower than 110 usually can't graduate of collage, and even these pepole aren't that intelligent.
Pepole get to the point where they are considered "intelligent" when they have IQ higher than 120 (these pepole are called "gifted" by the ordinary population), and these pepole are about 20-25% of the population.

IQ really proves one thing about intelligence: it's that people who invented it are really fucking dumb.


...Do you think that, if there is a limited number of pepole that can learn medicine, biology, physics etc etc, for free, per year:
1. Pepole should get through tests in order to see who deserves the funding.
2. The funding should be given on a "first-come-first-served" basis?
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7886 Posts
September 13 2011 13:56 GMT
#479
On September 13 2011 22:41 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 22:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
A political scientist is someone who study the political tendencies, not someone who is specialized in political questions. A political scientist will tell you about the difference between this and that kind of constitution and how it affects political tendencies, not if free speech is good or not.


There are tangible benefits and drawbacks to free speech. Political scientists with an emphasis on comparative politics understand them quite well. Just for the record, it comes down in favor of free speech for the most part.

Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 22:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
And I lack expertise. Jesus.


You really, really do.

Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 22:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Universal healthcare is not about what is the best way to cure people, it's about who can benefit medicines and on what circumstances. Oie. Nothing to do with science, it's politics again. So, what's the name again of the scientist who decide who has what right?


You assume that universal healthcare is a human right. That's a bullshit normative way of looking at it. People deciding that things are "human rights" are simply a way of side-stepping a real analysis of issues. The U.N. declaring internet a "human right" in no way impacts the fact that you can look at the tangible costs and benefits of universal internet access.

Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 22:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Political scientist. Seriously. I think Hitler was what you understand by political scientist: someone who is specialized in taking political decisions. I call that a dictator, but let's not start to discuss semantics, huhu?


A political scientist is a person who studies politics. A dictator is a ruler who assumes sole and absolute power. If you can't see the difference between the two, you really are as uninformed as you've been coming off in this thread.

Sorry, dude you don't make any sense.

Don't you fucking understand that something like universal healthcare is not a question of "efficiency", not even a question of cost, pr anything like that, but it's a philosophical question and that there are no specialist who can deiced for you if you want to live in a society where everybody can go to hospital for free or not?

You just started a political discussion. Oh, and nobody is right. Everybody thinks he is right, but, surprise! we just have different opinions.

Me, as a citizen, want to live in a society where a homeless who break an arm can go to hospital and have it fix, with my taxes.

That's a choice, you understand? There is no scientist who can tell you if it's right or wrong. It's not right or wrong, it's how I think society should be because the opposite, I would find monstrous. That's obviously not the case of someone who vote for the American Republicans.


Now, second thing. A political scientist is not someone who study, and therefore is right, on political issues, it's someone who study politics. Politics itself. Someone who knows about political systems, parties, tendencies, etc... I'll stop the ad ominem because it's annoying, but, really, you shouldn't say anybody is not educated enough if you don't know something like that.

Good luck with technocracy, I have to work.

A question for tonight:

"Who is the scientist who knows if abortion should be legal or not".

Enjoy.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 14:06:09
September 13 2011 13:58 GMT
#480
[image loading]

On September 13 2011 15:21 sunprince wrote:
Congratulations on failing basic political science.

A dictatorship is defined as an autocratic form of government in which the government is ruled by an individual, the dictator.

Technocracy is a form of government in which engineers, scientists, health professionals, and other technical experts are in control of decision making in their respective fields.

To put it another way, a meritocracy is not the same as an autocracy. Try to understand why before sticking your foot in your mouth in this thread.


You are discussing meritocracy, not Technocracy, which is a completely different concept. Get that into your head. The fact that propagandists and incompetents have coopted the word does not allow you to do the same.

On September 13 2011 15:29 JonnyBNoHo wrote:

What's your point?

You are advocating a planned economy with a controlled price system.

No successful economy today uses such a system.


Like it or not most economies in the world are "controlled" or "mixed" Price Systems your libertarian wet dreams notwithstanding. Technocracy is not a Price System in which it uses metrical measurement, not an economical theory of value. Money being a "rubber yardstick", a "controlled economy" using money (commodity evaluation) is really a contradiction in terms.

On September 13 2011 15:29 JonnyBNoHo wrote: Please stop posting your crazy propaganda. It's worse than scientology.


There is nobody else on this thread who is actually discussing Technocracy. If you don't like it create another thread called meritocracy vs. democracy or aristocracy vs. democracy those are well known debates in political philosophy. It can be argued we already have a meritocracy/aristocracy just as we already have a "controlled" or "fixed" Price System. However that is not Technocracy. All of your comments have nothing whatsoever to do with Technocracy. If you do not find Technocracy to be interesting please close this discussion.


On September 13 2011 21:42 sunprince wrote:

No, you don't understand. You are completely naive in matters of political science, political theory, and game theory.


On September 13 2011 22:28 sunprince wrote:
The economist doesn't just make the decision on a whim. He runs a cost-benefit analysis showing that the amount of lives saved does not justify the cost.


Economics is not a science. Political science is not a science. Morality control is not a science. Chemistry is. Biology is. Geology is. Physics is.

---------

A very great amount of confusion exists as a result of mis-
taking social position for ability. For example, there are few of
the 'Park Avenue' crowd, most of whom have inherited money
but have never done anything in their lives in evidence of superior
intelligence or functional capacity, who do not adopt an attitude
of extreme condescension towards such people as farmers, mem-
bers of the skilled trades, and others whose daily functions
are the most vital (and require among the highest degrees of
intelligence) of any that exist at the present time. Likewise, the
professors of a university view with considerable condescension
the activities of the skilled mechanics in the university machine
shops, little realizing that it takes a considerably higher order of
intelligence, both as regards training and in everyday perform-
ance, to be a master mechanic than it does to become and remain
the learned' Professor So-and-So.

No better example of this particular type of intellectual insol-
ence need be sought than that afforded by Professor Ortega y
Gasset in his book. Revolt of the Masses. In this book the writer
is decrying the rise of the masses and uses the illustration of an
African savage who has learned to drive an automobile and to use
aspirin. What the professor does not appear to realize is the irony
of his own situation, namely, that in the world of action his own
position is practically identical to that of the savage he is describ-
ing — one of complete functional incompetence. Professor Ortega
y Gasset is a Jesuit Professor of Philosophy at the University of
Madrid, and, as such, so far as is publicly known, has never done
anything of more importance in his entire life than to read books,
talk, and write more books. - Technocracy Study Course

Technocracy Study Course Unabridged

[image loading]

The Technocracy Study Course was mostly written by Howard Scott and Marion King Hubbert

Technocracy is dealing with social phenomena in the widest
sense of the word; this includes not only actions of human beings,
but also everything which directly or indirectly affects their ac-
tions. Consequently, the studies of Technocracy embrace practic-
ally the whole field of science and industry. Biology, climate, nat-
ural resources, and industrial equipment all enter into the social
picture; and no one can expect to have any understanding of our
present social problems without having at least a panoramic view
of the basic relations of these essential elements of the picture.
All things on the earth are composed of matter and therefore re-
quire a knowledge of chemistry. These things move, and in so
doing involve energy. An understanding of these relationships
requires a knowledge of physics. Industrial equipment, as well
as the substances of which living organisms are composed, are
derived from the earth. This requires a knowledge of geology and
earth processes. Man is himself an organism, and derives his food
from other organisms. Hence, a knowledge of biology is necessi-
tated. - Technocracy Study Course
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
September 13 2011 14:02 GMT
#481
On September 13 2011 22:28 sunprince wrote:

The economist doesn't just make the decision on a whim. He runs a cost-benefit analysis showing that the amount of lives saved does not justify the cost.



So who doecides where to draw the line? This is NOT a question an economist can answer. What do you want? Should medical care not be administered beyond the present value of a sick patient's expected lifetime earnings?

Because refusing care beyond beyond the point where it "adds value" is a very economist thing to do.

But what do you do with people that don't work? Parents who stay at home to raise their children etc. They don't work so saving their lives would not add value to society.

Reducing life to a bunch of "rational" decisions would leave the world a sad, sad place to live.
RageBot
Profile Joined November 2010
Israel1530 Posts
September 13 2011 14:02 GMT
#482
On September 13 2011 22:56 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 22:41 sunprince wrote:
On September 13 2011 22:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
A political scientist is someone who study the political tendencies, not someone who is specialized in political questions. A political scientist will tell you about the difference between this and that kind of constitution and how it affects political tendencies, not if free speech is good or not.


There are tangible benefits and drawbacks to free speech. Political scientists with an emphasis on comparative politics understand them quite well. Just for the record, it comes down in favor of free speech for the most part.

On September 13 2011 22:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
And I lack expertise. Jesus.


You really, really do.

On September 13 2011 22:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Universal healthcare is not about what is the best way to cure people, it's about who can benefit medicines and on what circumstances. Oie. Nothing to do with science, it's politics again. So, what's the name again of the scientist who decide who has what right?


You assume that universal healthcare is a human right. That's a bullshit normative way of looking at it. People deciding that things are "human rights" are simply a way of side-stepping a real analysis of issues. The U.N. declaring internet a "human right" in no way impacts the fact that you can look at the tangible costs and benefits of universal internet access.

On September 13 2011 22:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Political scientist. Seriously. I think Hitler was what you understand by political scientist: someone who is specialized in taking political decisions. I call that a dictator, but let's not start to discuss semantics, huhu?


A political scientist is a person who studies politics. A dictator is a ruler who assumes sole and absolute power. If you can't see the difference between the two, you really are as uninformed as you've been coming off in this thread.

Sorry, dude you don't make any sense.

Don't you fucking understand that something like universal healthcare is not a question of "efficiency", not even a question of cost, pr anything like that, but it's a philosophical question and that there are no specialist who can deiced for you if you want to live in a society where everybody can go to hospital for free or not?

You just started a political discussion. Oh, and nobody is right. Everybody thinks he is right, but, surprise! we just have different opinions.

Me, as a citizen, want to live in a society where a homeless who break an arm can go to hospital and have it fix, with my taxes.

That's a choice, you understand? There is no scientist who can tell you if it's right or wrong. It's not right or wrong, it's how I think society should be because the opposite, I would find monstrous. That's obviously not the case of someone who vote for the American Republicans.


Now, second thing. A political scientist is not someone who study, and therefore is right, on political issues, it's someone who study politics. Politics itself. Someone who knows about political systems, parties, tendencies, etc... I'll stop the ad ominem because it's annoying, but, really, you shouldn't say anybody is not educated enough if you don't know something like that.

Good luck with technocracy, I have to work.

A question for tonight:

"Who is the scientist who knows if abortion should be legal or not".

Enjoy.


...Abortion? who cares about that?
Abortion isn't something that has an effect on the entire population, it isn't funded by taxes, but payed individually, i'm not going to tell someone to have or not to have an abortion because it has no effefct on me, my parents, friends, and the entire population.
However, when something is done on a bigger scale, 1,000,000 times bigger than the one you just refered to, some decision are right, or wrong, they may not be right or wrong for certain individuals, but will be right for pretty much everyone.
The fact that you just refered to both of these cases as the same show that not only you have no understanding on the topic at hand, but probably won't be able to understand it even if you study the subject with a clear mind.
ZeGzoR
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden307 Posts
September 13 2011 14:18 GMT
#483
Everybody in power needs to answer to someone, otherwise they will become corrupted.

Power corrupts, totall power corrupts totally.
yeah yeah im going
RageBot
Profile Joined November 2010
Israel1530 Posts
September 13 2011 14:19 GMT
#484
On September 13 2011 23:18 ZeGzoR wrote:
Everybody in power needs to answer to someone, otherwise they will become corrupted.

Power corrupts, totall power corrupts totally.


Yeah, they need to answer to someone, not to everyone.
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7886 Posts
September 13 2011 14:19 GMT
#485
On September 13 2011 23:02 RageBot wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 22:56 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On September 13 2011 22:41 sunprince wrote:
On September 13 2011 22:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
A political scientist is someone who study the political tendencies, not someone who is specialized in political questions. A political scientist will tell you about the difference between this and that kind of constitution and how it affects political tendencies, not if free speech is good or not.


There are tangible benefits and drawbacks to free speech. Political scientists with an emphasis on comparative politics understand them quite well. Just for the record, it comes down in favor of free speech for the most part.

On September 13 2011 22:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
And I lack expertise. Jesus.


You really, really do.

On September 13 2011 22:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Universal healthcare is not about what is the best way to cure people, it's about who can benefit medicines and on what circumstances. Oie. Nothing to do with science, it's politics again. So, what's the name again of the scientist who decide who has what right?


You assume that universal healthcare is a human right. That's a bullshit normative way of looking at it. People deciding that things are "human rights" are simply a way of side-stepping a real analysis of issues. The U.N. declaring internet a "human right" in no way impacts the fact that you can look at the tangible costs and benefits of universal internet access.

On September 13 2011 22:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Political scientist. Seriously. I think Hitler was what you understand by political scientist: someone who is specialized in taking political decisions. I call that a dictator, but let's not start to discuss semantics, huhu?


A political scientist is a person who studies politics. A dictator is a ruler who assumes sole and absolute power. If you can't see the difference between the two, you really are as uninformed as you've been coming off in this thread.

Sorry, dude you don't make any sense.

Don't you fucking understand that something like universal healthcare is not a question of "efficiency", not even a question of cost, pr anything like that, but it's a philosophical question and that there are no specialist who can deiced for you if you want to live in a society where everybody can go to hospital for free or not?

You just started a political discussion. Oh, and nobody is right. Everybody thinks he is right, but, surprise! we just have different opinions.

Me, as a citizen, want to live in a society where a homeless who break an arm can go to hospital and have it fix, with my taxes.

That's a choice, you understand? There is no scientist who can tell you if it's right or wrong. It's not right or wrong, it's how I think society should be because the opposite, I would find monstrous. That's obviously not the case of someone who vote for the American Republicans.


Now, second thing. A political scientist is not someone who study, and therefore is right, on political issues, it's someone who study politics. Politics itself. Someone who knows about political systems, parties, tendencies, etc... I'll stop the ad ominem because it's annoying, but, really, you shouldn't say anybody is not educated enough if you don't know something like that.

Good luck with technocracy, I have to work.

A question for tonight:

"Who is the scientist who knows if abortion should be legal or not".

Enjoy.


...Abortion? who cares about that?
Abortion isn't something that has an effect on the entire population, it isn't funded by taxes, but payed individually, i'm not going to tell someone to have or not to have an abortion because it has no effefct on me, my parents, friends, and the entire population.
However, when something is done on a bigger scale, 1,000,000 times bigger than the one you just refered to, some decision are right, or wrong, they may not be right or wrong for certain individuals, but will be right for pretty much everyone.
The fact that you just refered to both of these cases as the same show that not only you have no understanding on the topic at hand, but probably won't be able to understand it even if you study the subject with a clear mind.

Yeah abortion is not an issue. Really? Ok, if you say so..................

Honestly I don't know what to do with your post, because it's just an ad ominem based on pretty much nothing and a losy reasoning saying that some things were wrong for certain people but right for most of them leading to I don't know what.

What I reproach to you and to sun is to misunderstand what politics is altogether. When we talk about universal healthcare, or abortion, there is no right or wrong, therefore the opinion of specialists or scientist is just irrelevant. It's about choosing the kind of society one wants to live in, and that has nothing to do with anything "objective".
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Gummy
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2180 Posts
September 13 2011 14:30 GMT
#486
On September 13 2011 23:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 23:02 RageBot wrote:
On September 13 2011 22:56 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On September 13 2011 22:41 sunprince wrote:
On September 13 2011 22:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
A political scientist is someone who study the political tendencies, not someone who is specialized in political questions. A political scientist will tell you about the difference between this and that kind of constitution and how it affects political tendencies, not if free speech is good or not.


There are tangible benefits and drawbacks to free speech. Political scientists with an emphasis on comparative politics understand them quite well. Just for the record, it comes down in favor of free speech for the most part.

On September 13 2011 22:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
And I lack expertise. Jesus.


You really, really do.

On September 13 2011 22:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Universal healthcare is not about what is the best way to cure people, it's about who can benefit medicines and on what circumstances. Oie. Nothing to do with science, it's politics again. So, what's the name again of the scientist who decide who has what right?


You assume that universal healthcare is a human right. That's a bullshit normative way of looking at it. People deciding that things are "human rights" are simply a way of side-stepping a real analysis of issues. The U.N. declaring internet a "human right" in no way impacts the fact that you can look at the tangible costs and benefits of universal internet access.

On September 13 2011 22:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Political scientist. Seriously. I think Hitler was what you understand by political scientist: someone who is specialized in taking political decisions. I call that a dictator, but let's not start to discuss semantics, huhu?


A political scientist is a person who studies politics. A dictator is a ruler who assumes sole and absolute power. If you can't see the difference between the two, you really are as uninformed as you've been coming off in this thread.

Sorry, dude you don't make any sense.

Don't you fucking understand that something like universal healthcare is not a question of "efficiency", not even a question of cost, pr anything like that, but it's a philosophical question and that there are no specialist who can deiced for you if you want to live in a society where everybody can go to hospital for free or not?

You just started a political discussion. Oh, and nobody is right. Everybody thinks he is right, but, surprise! we just have different opinions.

Me, as a citizen, want to live in a society where a homeless who break an arm can go to hospital and have it fix, with my taxes.

That's a choice, you understand? There is no scientist who can tell you if it's right or wrong. It's not right or wrong, it's how I think society should be because the opposite, I would find monstrous. That's obviously not the case of someone who vote for the American Republicans.


Now, second thing. A political scientist is not someone who study, and therefore is right, on political issues, it's someone who study politics. Politics itself. Someone who knows about political systems, parties, tendencies, etc... I'll stop the ad ominem because it's annoying, but, really, you shouldn't say anybody is not educated enough if you don't know something like that.

Good luck with technocracy, I have to work.

A question for tonight:

"Who is the scientist who knows if abortion should be legal or not".

Enjoy.


...Abortion? who cares about that?
Abortion isn't something that has an effect on the entire population, it isn't funded by taxes, but payed individually, i'm not going to tell someone to have or not to have an abortion because it has no effefct on me, my parents, friends, and the entire population.
However, when something is done on a bigger scale, 1,000,000 times bigger than the one you just refered to, some decision are right, or wrong, they may not be right or wrong for certain individuals, but will be right for pretty much everyone.
The fact that you just refered to both of these cases as the same show that not only you have no understanding on the topic at hand, but probably won't be able to understand it even if you study the subject with a clear mind.

Yeah abortion is not an issue. Really? Ok, if you say so..................

Honestly I don't know what to do with your post, because it's just an ad ominem based on pretty much nothing and a losy reasoning saying that some things were wrong for certain people but right for most of them leading to I don't know what.

What I reproach to you and to sun is to misunderstand what politics is altogether. When we talk about universal healthcare, or abortion, there is no right or wrong, therefore the opinion of specialists or scientist is just irrelevant. It's about choosing the kind of society one wants to live in, and that has nothing to do with anything "objective".


With a given set of utility functions, there is in fact a right and or wrong. You just need a good utility function.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ There are three kinds of people in the world: those who can count and those who can't.
RageBot
Profile Joined November 2010
Israel1530 Posts
September 13 2011 14:30 GMT
#487
On September 13 2011 23:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 23:02 RageBot wrote:
On September 13 2011 22:56 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On September 13 2011 22:41 sunprince wrote:
On September 13 2011 22:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
A political scientist is someone who study the political tendencies, not someone who is specialized in political questions. A political scientist will tell you about the difference between this and that kind of constitution and how it affects political tendencies, not if free speech is good or not.


There are tangible benefits and drawbacks to free speech. Political scientists with an emphasis on comparative politics understand them quite well. Just for the record, it comes down in favor of free speech for the most part.

On September 13 2011 22:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
And I lack expertise. Jesus.


You really, really do.

On September 13 2011 22:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Universal healthcare is not about what is the best way to cure people, it's about who can benefit medicines and on what circumstances. Oie. Nothing to do with science, it's politics again. So, what's the name again of the scientist who decide who has what right?


You assume that universal healthcare is a human right. That's a bullshit normative way of looking at it. People deciding that things are "human rights" are simply a way of side-stepping a real analysis of issues. The U.N. declaring internet a "human right" in no way impacts the fact that you can look at the tangible costs and benefits of universal internet access.

On September 13 2011 22:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Political scientist. Seriously. I think Hitler was what you understand by political scientist: someone who is specialized in taking political decisions. I call that a dictator, but let's not start to discuss semantics, huhu?


A political scientist is a person who studies politics. A dictator is a ruler who assumes sole and absolute power. If you can't see the difference between the two, you really are as uninformed as you've been coming off in this thread.

Sorry, dude you don't make any sense.

Don't you fucking understand that something like universal healthcare is not a question of "efficiency", not even a question of cost, pr anything like that, but it's a philosophical question and that there are no specialist who can deiced for you if you want to live in a society where everybody can go to hospital for free or not?

You just started a political discussion. Oh, and nobody is right. Everybody thinks he is right, but, surprise! we just have different opinions.

Me, as a citizen, want to live in a society where a homeless who break an arm can go to hospital and have it fix, with my taxes.

That's a choice, you understand? There is no scientist who can tell you if it's right or wrong. It's not right or wrong, it's how I think society should be because the opposite, I would find monstrous. That's obviously not the case of someone who vote for the American Republicans.


Now, second thing. A political scientist is not someone who study, and therefore is right, on political issues, it's someone who study politics. Politics itself. Someone who knows about political systems, parties, tendencies, etc... I'll stop the ad ominem because it's annoying, but, really, you shouldn't say anybody is not educated enough if you don't know something like that.

Good luck with technocracy, I have to work.

A question for tonight:

"Who is the scientist who knows if abortion should be legal or not".

Enjoy.


...Abortion? who cares about that?
Abortion isn't something that has an effect on the entire population, it isn't funded by taxes, but payed individually, i'm not going to tell someone to have or not to have an abortion because it has no effefct on me, my parents, friends, and the entire population.
However, when something is done on a bigger scale, 1,000,000 times bigger than the one you just refered to, some decision are right, or wrong, they may not be right or wrong for certain individuals, but will be right for pretty much everyone.
The fact that you just refered to both of these cases as the same show that not only you have no understanding on the topic at hand, but probably won't be able to understand it even if you study the subject with a clear mind.

Yeah abortion is not an issue. Really? Ok, if you say so..................

Honestly I don't know what to do with your post, because it's just an ad ominem based on pretty much nothing and a losy reasoning saying that some things were wrong for certain people but right for most of them leading to I don't know what.

What I reproach to you and to sun is to misunderstand what politics is altogether. When we talk about universal healthcare, or abortion, there is no right or wrong, therefore the opinion of specialists or scientist is just irrelevant. It's about choosing the kind of society one wants to live in, and that has nothing to do with anything "objective".


Can you explain to me, why I don't care about abortion, while I do care about universal healthcare?
DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5079 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 14:49:42
September 13 2011 14:49 GMT
#488
As already pointed out by others, we already have a highly technocratic society both in form and in function.

And it's worked oh-so-well, hasn't it? (Well yes, it has, but lots of people posting here think otherwise apparently).

It makes sense that most posters here who either have zero political power because they don't participate or feel like they don't because they're young and are just looking for a way to express their newly found political instincts would shit on democracy.

Sometimes these threads are like listening to a 14 year old who just lost his virginity last month eagerly talking about the "new" position he "discovered" with his girlfriend and how it will revolutionize sex everywhere!
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
MozzarellaL
Profile Joined November 2010
United States822 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 15:02:28
September 13 2011 15:01 GMT
#489
^^ What he said. We basically already have a technocracy in place.

The appointees and employees of every Federal agency are more or less technical experts in their field, and they generally have full control over the laws (answerable only to the Federal courts and Congressional amendment of their chartering laws) to do whatever they want in their respective fields.

lol @ this thread and how it managed to get to 25 pgs.
Tortious_Tortoise
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States944 Posts
September 13 2011 15:02 GMT
#490
This is called an Oligarchy. If there is a panel of a small amount of people who unilaterally decide what is best for a nation (or a segment therein), this small amount of people will eventually forget the good of the people and become subjected to corruption and abuse of power, putting the needs and wants of a tiny portion of the population over the needs of the rest.
Treating eSports as a social science since 2011; Credo: "The system is never wrong"-- Day9 Daily #400 Part 3
Thorakh
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands1788 Posts
September 13 2011 15:41 GMT
#491
Wouldn't a perfect democracy be a technocracy anyway? Everyone would know enough to make an educated vote and that is the whole point of a technocracy.

We should strive to improve education and reduce the effect of tabloids and other media like that, as other posters pointed out.
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 15:47 GMT
#492
On September 13 2011 18:30 Timestreamer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 17:22 lorkac wrote:
On September 13 2011 17:11 Timestreamer wrote:
On September 13 2011 15:59 lorkac wrote:
On September 13 2011 15:33 sunprince wrote:


The point is, technical experts use their expertise in decision-making when they have the power to do so. The big pro for technocracy (not that I'm saying there are no cons), is that you get to have things like doctors shaping the health care reform process, instead of people who don't know anything about it.


You actually have that option with democracy. The populace "could" vote for doctors and engineers.

Technocracy is forcing leaders to be doctors and engineers--not allowing any other option. It is leadership by government decree, government choice, and government desires. It is limiting human options in the hope that "the experts" know better than feeble civilians.


The populace could do that. Or they can vote for free candy.
Politicians are the real experts in the field of manipulation the general public. If the public votes for what they believe is the best, then an expert in civil engineering doesn't a stand to be voted to a housing committee, next to the politician who promises free housing for all.


Oh how cute

How very very cute.

You're like what, 19? 20? Almost 21? How simplistic a world view you have

Leaders are either chosen by the people, or they're not. You don't trust voters obviously, so you're hoping for a governmental authority to benevolently choose a benevolent leader.

Yeah... I love imagining worlds where the people in charge are never corrupt. Those ideas are indeed very cute.

Thanks, you're cute as well. Back to the subject at hand though....
1) Age is irrelevant, unless you're going with the whole "cute line of thought", and trying to date me. Thanks, but I think I'll pass.
2) I'm hoping for people who understand about housing and civil engineering to vote for a leader for a housing committee. Not people who can make the best speeches.
3) Never talked about corruption, and of course this has been mentioned before. I believe it was sunprince that said that corruption will always be a problem, but at least the corrupted officials will know what will be the consequences of their actions. It isn't a solution, but then again - neither is democracy.


What's cute is that you feel that a democracy is not governed by experts in their field (it is) and that a democracy does not have panels put together by experts in its fields (it is) and simply assuming that the only thing that makes up a democracy is politicians and oligarchs (it isn't)

The reason Democracy doesn't work is because when people are given what they are asking for in a mass scale--they don't actually want it. They ask for education, so taxes increase to be able to pay for education, a large section of the population doesn't like the tax increase and so force a tax decrease, education goes down, people then complain why education is bad and why government keeps wanting to raise their taxes. Because people don't like being given what they're asking for. So what does our (I'm American) government do? They put together a ridiculous number of panels and groups of experts whose only job is to figure out what the people need from infrastructure to economics to medicine etc....

The main limiting factor of democracy is public opinion. The only difference between a technocracy and a democracy is that, in a technocracy, you want to shut up the opinion of the people you dislike. Which is fine, it works for fascists and dictators and communists, which is okay. Just stop pretending that technocracy is something it isn't. Which is innately better just because you don't have to listen to stupid people (already done) and you don't have to worry about money (already done). Here's the thing. Unless you make the entire planet a non-price system, you will still need currency in order to deal and interact with the rest of the planet. Unless technocrats believe in complete and total isolation where the public has no say in policy and only the elite chosen few gets a say in how society is run. Sure, lots of countries have done that. Heck, Korea is doing it now.

Technocracy is nothing new, heck, it's barely clever. This one girl I knew from high school (American remember) once told me that she had a perfect system of government where all she did was shoot stupid people in the face with a shotgun, that way only experts in their fields got a say in policy. I know you guys don't believe in shooting people in the face, but I'm just saying this all just sounds very childish to me.

You not wanting to bring your age in consideration is what really solidifies this. Being that this is the same idea as a lot of american high school kids used to have more than a decade ago, it's about as refined. Still just as silly

Corruption happens. And when it does, the people suffer. This doesn't matter what system is in place be it democracy or dictatorship or technocracy. Democracies and Dictatorships *do* have their panel of experts. They *do* have experts in their respective fields help dictate and define policy. Technocrats simply feel that their experts will be less corrupted than democracies and dictatorships because... oh because they're "good people." lol
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
bbm
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom1320 Posts
September 13 2011 15:50 GMT
#493
On September 14 2011 00:41 Thorakh wrote:
Wouldn't a perfect democracy be a technocracy anyway? Everyone would know enough to make an educated vote and that is the whole point of a technocracy.

Not quite (if I'm reading technocracy correctly). I don't know anything about bio-nano-technology, and I don't feel I should have a say in matters of bio-nano-technology.
By.Sun or By.Rain, he always delivers
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 15:57 GMT
#494
On September 14 2011 00:41 Thorakh wrote:
Wouldn't a perfect democracy be a technocracy anyway? Everyone would know enough to make an educated vote and that is the whole point of a technocracy.

We should strive to improve education and reduce the effect of tabloids and other media like that, as other posters pointed out.


take a government system (doesn't matter which)

Imagine if it ran perfect with no corruption and it's leaders were benevolent and only thought about the good will of the people.

And the people themselves were not greedy so that their monetary system was not a goal in and of itself but people actually aimed to trade for the best possible outcome for all parties involved (and all parties not involved)

Viola! Technocracy

Yes, it's that silly.
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
Thorakh
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands1788 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 16:04:06
September 13 2011 16:01 GMT
#495
lorkac, you are completely misrepresenting technocracy. Seriously, it's like listening to a strawman argument about evolution from a religious nutjob.

he only difference between a technocracy and a democracy is that, in a technocracy, you want to shut up the opinion of the people you dislike.
who don't know what they're talking about.

Unless technocrats believe in complete and total isolation where the public has no say in policy and only the elite chosen few gets a say in how society is run
Excuse me, but having a technocracy doesn't mean schools disappear. If everyone is given an equal chance at going to school, everyone can 'make it'.

Technocracy is nothing new, heck, it's barely clever. This one girl I knew from high school (American remember) once told me that she had a perfect system of government where all she did was shoot stupid people in the face with a shotgun, that way only experts in their fields got a say in policy. I know you guys don't believe in shooting people in the face, but I'm just saying this all just sounds very childish to me.
So you heard an opinion from a girl which wasn't even a description of a technocracy and then proceed to dismiss the whole idea of technocracy?

Corruption happens. And when it does, the people suffer. This doesn't matter what system is in place be it democracy or dictatorship or technocracy. Democracies and Dictatorships *do* have their panel of experts. They *do* have experts in their respective fields help dictate and define policy. Technocrats simply feel that their experts will be less corrupted than democracies and dictatorships because... oh because they're "good people." lol
So your argument is that corruption happens in all systems and therefore a technocracy is bad?


take a government system (doesn't matter which)

Imagine if it ran perfect with no corruption and it's leaders were benevolent and only thought about the good will of the people.

And the people themselves were not greedy so that their monetary system was not a goal in and of itself but people actually aimed to trade for the best possible outcome for all parties involved (and all parties not involved)

Viola! Technocracy

Yes, it's that silly.
And that is not something to aim for or what...? Eliminating people who have no clue from the system would already go a long way.
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 16:19 GMT
#496
On September 14 2011 01:01 Thorakh wrote:
lorkac, you are completely misrepresenting technocracy. Seriously, it's like listening to a strawman argument about evolution from a religious nutjob.

Show nested quote +
he only difference between a technocracy and a democracy is that, in a technocracy, you want to shut up the opinion of the people you dislike.
who don't know what they're talking about.

Show nested quote +
Unless technocrats believe in complete and total isolation where the public has no say in policy and only the elite chosen few gets a say in how society is run
Excuse me, but having a technocracy doesn't mean schools disappear. If everyone is given an equal chance at going to school, everyone can 'make it'.

Show nested quote +
Technocracy is nothing new, heck, it's barely clever. This one girl I knew from high school (American remember) once told me that she had a perfect system of government where all she did was shoot stupid people in the face with a shotgun, that way only experts in their fields got a say in policy. I know you guys don't believe in shooting people in the face, but I'm just saying this all just sounds very childish to me.
So you heard an opinion from a girl which wasn't even a description of a technocracy and then proceed to dismiss the whole idea of technocracy?

Show nested quote +
Corruption happens. And when it does, the people suffer. This doesn't matter what system is in place be it democracy or dictatorship or technocracy. Democracies and Dictatorships *do* have their panel of experts. They *do* have experts in their respective fields help dictate and define policy. Technocrats simply feel that their experts will be less corrupted than democracies and dictatorships because... oh because they're "good people." lol
So your argument is that corruption happens in all systems and therefore a technocracy is bad?

Show nested quote +

take a government system (doesn't matter which)

Imagine if it ran perfect with no corruption and it's leaders were benevolent and only thought about the good will of the people.

And the people themselves were not greedy so that their monetary system was not a goal in and of itself but people actually aimed to trade for the best possible outcome for all parties involved (and all parties not involved)

Viola! Technocracy

Yes, it's that silly.
And that is not something to aim for or what...? Eliminating people who have no clue from the system would already go a long way.


Never said Technocracy was bad. Just saying it isn't anything different from what people use now. It's nothing special at all. It's pretty much just like what high schoolers think politics should be. "let's just get rid of stupid people."

And yes, you're assumption that *equal access* to schools equates to *equal opportunity* is also a very childish outlook on reality and reeks of privilege.

What I'm dismissing is not Technocracy, it's this misguided belief that "the general public" would not only accept a social system where they have no say--but that the public would also be happy in that social system. It's not really about the specifics of technocracy, it's the inherent belief that technocracy somehow does something new and unique when it really doesn't. It all boils down to the same thing.

Which is "Eliminating people who have no clue from the system."

It's foolhardy not because it's not a good goal to have, it's foolhardy because technocrats operate in the assumption that other governmental systems don't already operate under that same premise

Like I said, it's cute and very high schoolish.
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
stenole
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
Norway868 Posts
September 13 2011 16:29 GMT
#497
In a lot of ways technocracy is already present in a lot of democratic countries. Running a country is complicated and it is unlikely that your elected officials will be experts in every field that needs regulation and legislation. So when making a decision about education, you will inevitably need advice from teachers, when making a military decision, you get advice from military officers, when making a decision about energy policy or transportation, you get advice from engineers, when considering taxation, you talk to economists. The less the politicians know (and are aware of it) the more weight the advice will have and thereby the political power could be said to be in the hands of the "craftsmen".
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
September 13 2011 16:43 GMT
#498
Could it be? Surely.

Would it be? No.
Freeeeeeedom
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 17:37:16
September 13 2011 17:32 GMT
#499
What you are discussing is nothing new because as I said what you are all discussing is called "aristocracy", rule by the aristos, or "best", a well-known political philosophy concept which has been discussed since Plato's times. You are using the word Technocracy wrong. Technocracy is opposed to both democracy and aristocracy. Technocracy refers to a system of functional governance for North America proposed by Howard Scott which is meant to replace our 7000 year old Price System with a totally new concept in accordance with the technological age in which we live. Either you investigate Technocracy on technocracyinc.org the official website of the original organisation before posting completely unrelated things under the name "technocracy" or create a new discussion called "aristocracy vs. democracy" or "expertocracy vs. democracy", suit yourself, if you find that discussion interesting. But do not continue showing your ignorance, incompetence and disregard for honesty by misusing a word which does not belong to you.
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 17:55:26
September 13 2011 17:38 GMT
#500
On September 14 2011 02:32 tech information wrote:
What you are discussing is nothing new because as I said what you are all discussing is called "aristocracy", rule by the aristos, or "best", a well-known political philosophy concept which has been discussed since Plato's times. You are using the word Technocracy wrong. Technocracy is oppsed to both democracy and aristocracy. Technocracy refers to a system of functional governance for North America proposed by Howard Scott which is meant to replace our 7000 year old Price System with a totally new concept in accordance with the technological age in which we live. Either you investigate Technocracy on technocracyinc.org the official website of the original organisation before posting completely unrelated things under the name "technocracy" or create a new discussion called "aristocracy vs. democracy" or "expertocracy vs. democracy", suit yourself, if you find that discussion interesting. But do not continue showing your ignorance, incompetence and disregard for honesty by misusing a word which does not belong to you.


Not complaining about aristocracy. Just saying that isolationist ideals that attempt to let go of money is not new and pretending it is is very silly

EDIT::

Wow, technocracy sounds even sillier if you look through the website lol


EDIT2::

Omg! Technocracy is even worse on that website than I thought! lol

People work for nothing, and they like it, because yeah... (that's his argument actually)

Money doesn't matter and people won't care about incentives, because we say so... (That is also their argument)

People will work less, retire early, and get more, because... he doesn't really say why he says that that's just how it works.

lol

My god, I actually thought that Technocracy was at least comparable to other governmental styles. It's actually far worse if you listen to what it has to say lol.
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 17:54:00
September 13 2011 17:53 GMT
#501
Yes it is totally new and it is the only viable alternative to our moribund system. Technocracy were among the very first real environmentalists and still the only real environmentalists and the very first of a lot of things. Investigate the history.

The North American Continent has all the essentials. Why waste those non-renewable resources in an effort that is doomed from the start-- to have continuous economical expansion through devious mechanisms such as programmed obsolescence, military-industrial complex, bureaucracy, etc-- in a finite world? The only people who believe you can have continuous growth in a finite environment is either insane or is an economist. Technocracy is doing nothing more than stating the obvious. Stop sitting on your brains. Our comfortable lifestyle has only been made possible by technology and extraneous energy, not any political philosophy.

[image loading]

It's Suicide Either Way

An armament boom is the only ultimate major alternative now visible to a decline in business. Such
an armament program in the long run appears inevitable if we don't want to commit national suicide,
but it isn't in sight at present.

Economic statesmanship from Wall Street, that appeared in Barron's Weekly. (As quoted by Labor, Nov. 16, 1946.)

Voice of the Price System
Steel
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Japan2283 Posts
September 13 2011 17:57 GMT
#502
This is some very nice theorycrafting ( lol ) but reforming and entire political system is -impossible-.

Maybe after a lot of people die we could try this.
Try another route paperboy.
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 18:01 GMT
#503
On September 14 2011 02:38 lorkac wrote:
EDIT::
Wow, technocracy sounds even sillier if you look through the website lol
EDIT2:: Omg! Technocracy is even worse on that website than I thought! lol People work for nothing, and they like it, because yeah... (that's his argument actually) Money doesn't matter and people won't care about incentives, because we say so... (That is also their argument) People will work less, retire early, and get more, because... he doesn't really say why he says that that's just how it works. lol My god, I actually thought that Technocracy was at least comparable to other governmental styles. It's actually far worse if you listen to what it has to say lol.


Silly or not that's what it is. Maybe you think we can have unlimited economic expansion in a finite environment like the credo of the economists. Maybe you want to be a stooge for the Hearst Corporation or the Vatican State. Do you even know what the word work means?
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 18:02 GMT
#504
On September 14 2011 02:53 tech information wrote:
Yes it is totally new and it is the only viable alternative to our moribund system. Technocracy were among the very first real environmentalists and still the only real environmentalists and the very first of a lot of things. Investigate the history.

The North American Continent has all the essentials. Why waste those non-renewable resources in an effort that is doomed from the start-- to have continuous economical expansion through devious mechanisms such as programmed obsolescence, military-industrial complex, bureaucracy, etc-- in a finite world? The only people who believe you can have continuous growth in a finite environment is either insane or is an economist. Technocracy is doing nothing more than stating the obvious. Stop sitting on your brains. Our comfortable lifestyle has only been made possible by technology and extraneous energy, not any political philosophy.

[image loading]

It's Suicide Either Way

An armament boom is the only ultimate major alternative now visible to a decline in business. Such
an armament program in the long run appears inevitable if we don't want to commit national suicide,
but it isn't in sight at present.

Economic statesmanship from Wall Street, that appeared in Barron's Weekly. (As quoted by Labor, Nov. 16, 1946.)

Voice of the Price System


Depending on people to simply do the right thing and not want to live in excess is foolhardy. Not because it's a bad idea, but because it goes against human nature. The only such a system would work is if you force those people to live that lifestyle akin to cults who isolate themselves in the wilderness and live off of wells and gardens. Sure, they're self sustaining, but they're also crazy.

Technocracy is asking for a nation/continental wide Jonestown that they hope does not have cool-aide because, supposedly, science people are nicer than politicians and businessmen.
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
drshdwpuppet
Profile Joined July 2011
United States332 Posts
September 13 2011 18:03 GMT
#505
I think that an interim partial technocracy would be doable, making congressional panels of experts in their field to advise legislators on the issues at hand. The problem would come when choosing those panels. Sure a group of economists would be better at determining economic policy better than those who are currently making it. However, there is more to economic theory than long term economic stability, the policies usually include cuts, expenses, taxation etc. That is what really gets bogged down in all the sheer stupidity of out political system, not the actual revelation that we need to spend less money than we make.
Enterprise was just temp banned for 1 week by Myles. Reason: You aren't a philosopher and warning aren't cutting it.
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 18:05 GMT
#506
Work. When a force acts upon a body and causes it to move, work is said to be done. A unit of work is defined to be that which is done when a unit of force causes its point of application to move a unit of distance in the direction in which the force acts. In the English system when the unit of length is the foot and the unit of force the pound, the unit of work is the foot-pound. Hence the total number of foot-pounds of work done by a given force is the product of the force in pounds by the distance its point of application is moved in the direction of action of the force, in feet. The simplest example is afforded by the lifting of a weight. It requires 1 foot-pound of work to lift a 1-pound mass a height of 1 foot
- Technocracy Study Course
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 18:05 GMT
#507
On September 14 2011 03:01 tech information wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 14 2011 02:38 lorkac wrote:
EDIT::
Wow, technocracy sounds even sillier if you look through the website lol
EDIT2:: Omg! Technocracy is even worse on that website than I thought! lol People work for nothing, and they like it, because yeah... (that's his argument actually) Money doesn't matter and people won't care about incentives, because we say so... (That is also their argument) People will work less, retire early, and get more, because... he doesn't really say why he says that that's just how it works. lol My god, I actually thought that Technocracy was at least comparable to other governmental styles. It's actually far worse if you listen to what it has to say lol.


Silly or not that's what it is. Maybe you think we can have unlimited economic expansion in a finite environment like the credo of the economists. Maybe you want to be a stooge for the Hearst Corporation or the Vatican State. Do you even know what the word work means?


Why do you assume that I want unlimited economic expansion?

Just saying that it doesn't sound any different from any other random theory out there except it depends on people not being dicks/stupid which is just silly
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 18:21:50
September 13 2011 18:15 GMT
#508
On September 14 2011 03:03 drshdwpuppet wrote:
I think that an interim partial technocracy would be doable, making congressional panels of experts in their field to advise legislators on the issues at hand. The problem would come when choosing those panels. Sure a group of economists would be better at determining economic policy better than those who are currently making it. However, there is more to economic theory than long term economic stability, the policies usually include cuts, expenses, taxation etc. That is what really gets bogged down in all the sheer stupidity of out political system, not the actual revelation that we need to spend less money than we make.


You haven't been following the discussion. Either reread all my comments and links or please don't post here anymore. We don't need your unrelated opinions.

On September 14 2011 03:02 lorkac wrote:
Depending on people to simply do the right thing and not want to live in excess is foolhardy. Not because it's a bad idea, but because it goes against human nature. The only such a system would work is if you force those people to live that lifestyle akin to cults who isolate themselves in the wilderness and live off of wells and gardens. Sure, they're self sustaining, but they're also crazy.
Technocracy is asking for a nation/continental wide Jonestown that they hope does not have cool-aide because, supposedly, science people are nicer than politicians and businessmen.


Believe what you want but the laws of thermodynamics are no respecters of persons and their opinions. Ever heard of something called Peak Oil? Yea it was discovered by Marion King Hubbert co-founder of Technocracy Inc. and writer of the Technocracy Study Course. It is integral to the body of thought of Technocracy. He was laughed at and called a "Communist" at the time for suggesting that resources extraction would follow a Hubbert Curve but now he is regarded by all as a scientific genius.

[image loading]

List of Marion King Hubbert's contributions to Technocracy
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 18:31:53
September 13 2011 18:29 GMT
#509
From an interview given to Charles H. Wood, Associate Editor, The NEW YORK WORLD, February 20, 1921

Howard Scott
(Founder-Director-In Chief Technocracy, Inc.)

Mr. Scott is anything but an enthusiast, yet I have never heard an irresponsible soap boxer make more staggering statements. To multiply the nations wealth by ten − without waiting for new inventions and without considering a political move − seemed to him a simple problem for the engineers when they organize as engineers.

For lack of anything better to say, I asked him a question which every advocate of a new order will recognize as an old acquaintance: "Won't you have to change human nature first?" Mr. Scott smiled dryly.

"Did you have to change human nature," he asked "in order to keep passengers from standing on car platforms?"

"Go on," I said, "I'm listening."

"They put up signs first," he continued, "prohibiting the dangerous practice, but the passengers still crowded the platform. Then they got ordinances passed, and the platform remained as crowded as before. Policemen, legislators, public service commissions all took a hand but to no effect; then the problem was put up to an engineer."

"The engineers solved it easily. They built cars that didn't have platforms."

[image loading]

According to Mr. Scott, the same course will have to be followed in the matter of a still more familiar prohibition. THOU SHALL NOT STEAL. Church and state, he says, have united unanimously throughout all history behind this law, but it has never been enforced. Technical administration alone, he maintains, can enforce it. How? Let him answer in his own words.

"By coordinating the industrial process; by operating all industries as one agency for one definite purpose; producing and distributing the things that people want so that an abundance of everything shall be accessible to all."

"Private property," he said, "is generally recognized as a burden even today, and few people would want to carry it if they could be rich without having to do so. For the first time in history, though, humanity has a machine at hand which is productive enough to make everybody rich, and it has the technical knowledge at its disposal to run such a machine."
HellRoxYa
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden1614 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 18:42:20
September 13 2011 18:36 GMT
#510
I'll drop a few things here.

First off, generally speaking the further away the decision makers are from the people who they govern the worse it is. This can be circumvented in a technocracy by effectiveness of governing and the population agreeing with their decisions and recognising their leadership as legitimate. This might be easy or it might be extremely hard or even impossible. Dictators, for example, gain their legitimacy mainly through effectiveness and repression. Democracies, on the other hand, gain theirs by the fact that you can influence the legislation yourself.

Secondly, there is very rarely an across the board consensus in political science when it comes to what is best and what is not. In some cases there is empirical data which supports one side and discredits the other and it's a non-issue (unless the data can be criticised itself somehow). The big problem arises when there's normative stances to be made. As someone a page back was talking about, an economist can indeed make a cost-benefit analysis of healthcare but he can not tell you where the right cutoff point is, unless you normatively value the economy over everything else. Even then, there may be other economists - as there usually is - who take a different stance than him for various reasons.

Thirdly, as was also pointed out a couple of pages back, political science is mainly the study of different political systems and their benefits and drawbacks. It's the comparison of systems, rather than the creation of new ones. The technocratic argument is in itself a political theory. If there would be general consensus that it would be the best thing for everyone then I'm sure some nation would slowly adopt it. There isn't, and there wont be, until some nation actually produces such a system so that it can be studied for cause and effect. I hope this doesn't seem problematic to just me.

Oh, and lastly, stop acting like there's an answer for everything. There isn't.
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 18:37 GMT
#511
On September 14 2011 03:05 lorkac wrote: it depends on people not being dicks/stupid which is just silly

No. Read the article about Ralph Nader and morality control I posted above and the 1921 interview I just posted here. The Price System relies on that, which is obviously silly.
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 18:38 GMT
#512
On September 14 2011 03:15 tech information wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 14 2011 03:03 drshdwpuppet wrote:
I think that an interim partial technocracy would be doable, making congressional panels of experts in their field to advise legislators on the issues at hand. The problem would come when choosing those panels. Sure a group of economists would be better at determining economic policy better than those who are currently making it. However, there is more to economic theory than long term economic stability, the policies usually include cuts, expenses, taxation etc. That is what really gets bogged down in all the sheer stupidity of out political system, not the actual revelation that we need to spend less money than we make.


You haven't been following the discussion. Either reread all my comments and links or please don't post here anymore. We don't need your unrelated opinions.

Show nested quote +
On September 14 2011 03:02 lorkac wrote:
Depending on people to simply do the right thing and not want to live in excess is foolhardy. Not because it's a bad idea, but because it goes against human nature. The only such a system would work is if you force those people to live that lifestyle akin to cults who isolate themselves in the wilderness and live off of wells and gardens. Sure, they're self sustaining, but they're also crazy.
Technocracy is asking for a nation/continental wide Jonestown that they hope does not have cool-aide because, supposedly, science people are nicer than politicians and businessmen.


Believe what you want but the laws of thermodynamics are no respecters of persons and their opinions. Ever heard of something called Peak Oil? Yea it was discovered by Marion King Hubbert co-founder of Technocracy Inc. and writer of the Technocracy Study Course. It is integral to the body of thought of Technocracy. He was laughed at and called a "Communist" at the time for suggesting that resources extraction would follow a Hubbert Curve but now he is regarded by all as a scientific genius.

[image loading]

List of Marion King Hubbert's contributions to Technocracy


And the fact you assume that only Technocracy cares about those things is just hilarious lol

"Experts" are hired and work on these problems in all government structures. All of them. These things are talked about, constantly. The decision on what to do, the preference for how to handle the situations, are varied. Your "technocratic" ideal is merely one of many possible steps we could take. It is one that you like, and you feel is something that "everyone" would like. And you also don't seem to understand a very simple fact--it's not new. The specifics might be different, but the overall "plan" is nothing revolutionary.

Going around spouting things like "Let's not be wasteful, if we weren't wasteful things would be so much better" or "We shouldn't be so greedy and money dependent, if we weren't so greedy, things would be better" or "There's too many dumb people voting, we need to stop them from having a say and only hire people I feel are smart enough to do stuff" or "Yeah man, if we spend more money on social programs and populace doesn't care that they don't have a lot of money, things would be so much better!"

People know that! People have known that since forever. Much like an alcoholic knows he drinks too much--but can't stop, people know their lifestyle is not sustainable over generations and people know that living life in excess is not sustainable over the generations. But they're still people, and they still want stuff. They have needs and desires and they have the right to live life as they want. Should we become a better society? Hell yeah. But it doesn't happen simply by the government saying so. Many governments have tried, many have failed. Those that "don't fail" are hated by the world and end up isolating themselves. Then they get one bad leader then suddenly everyone starts dying. Not because their system was bad--but because people are bad.

Technocracy is nothing new and it's nothing interesting.
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 18:39 GMT
#513
On September 14 2011 03:36 HellRoxYa wrote:
I'll drop a few things here.

Please don't. You haven't been following the discussion. Either reread all my comments and links or please don't post here anymore. This discussion is about Technocracy not aristocracy. We don't need your unrelated opinions.
Thorakh
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands1788 Posts
September 13 2011 18:39 GMT
#514
That is some interesting stuff

I (we) were indeed wrong about what real a technocracy is, tech_information. It seems what we have been discussing is a meritocracy.
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 18:41 GMT
#515
On September 14 2011 03:37 tech information wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 14 2011 03:05 lorkac wrote: it depends on people not being dicks/stupid which is just silly

No. Read the article about Ralph Nader and morality control I posted above and the 1921 interview I just posted here. The Price System relies on that, which is obviously silly.


The price system is an organically grown process that organized and made easier the sharing of resources from the original barter system.

Non-Price systems are merely attempts to fix something that naturally came out of society by people who dislike it.
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 18:41 GMT
#516
On September 14 2011 03:38 lorkac wrote:Technocracy is nothing new and it's nothing interesting.

Why are you posting in a discussion about Technocracy then if you don't find it interesting. Get a life.
HellRoxYa
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden1614 Posts
September 13 2011 18:44 GMT
#517
On September 14 2011 03:39 tech information wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 14 2011 03:36 HellRoxYa wrote:
I'll drop a few things here.

Please don't. You haven't been following the discussion. Either reread all my comments and links or please don't post here anymore. This discussion is about Technocracy not aristocracy. We don't need your unrelated opinions.


Good thing then that I wasn't discussing aristocracy. Maybe you should actually read my post?
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 18:46 GMT
#518
On September 14 2011 03:29 tech information wrote:
From an interview given to Charles H. Wood, Associate Editor, The NEW YORK WORLD, February 20, 1921

Howard Scott
(Founder-Director-In Chief Technocracy, Inc.)

Mr. Scott is anything but an enthusiast, yet I have never heard an irresponsible soap boxer make more staggering statements. To multiply the nations wealth by ten − without waiting for new inventions and without considering a political move − seemed to him a simple problem for the engineers when they organize as engineers.

For lack of anything better to say, I asked him a question which every advocate of a new order will recognize as an old acquaintance: "Won't you have to change human nature first?" Mr. Scott smiled dryly.

"Did you have to change human nature," he asked "in order to keep passengers from standing on car platforms?"

"Go on," I said, "I'm listening."

"They put up signs first," he continued, "prohibiting the dangerous practice, but the passengers still crowded the platform. Then they got ordinances passed, and the platform remained as crowded as before. Policemen, legislators, public service commissions all took a hand but to no effect; then the problem was put up to an engineer."

"The engineers solved it easily. They built cars that didn't have platforms."

[image loading]

According to Mr. Scott, the same course will have to be followed in the matter of a still more familiar prohibition. THOU SHALL NOT STEAL. Church and state, he says, have united unanimously throughout all history behind this law, but it has never been enforced. Technical administration alone, he maintains, can enforce it. How? Let him answer in his own words.

"By coordinating the industrial process; by operating all industries as one agency for one definite purpose; producing and distributing the things that people want so that an abundance of everything shall be accessible to all."

"Private property," he said, "is generally recognized as a burden even today, and few people would want to carry it if they could be rich without having to do so. For the first time in history, though, humanity has a machine at hand which is productive enough to make everybody rich, and it has the technical knowledge at its disposal to run such a machine."


Politicians solved the platform problem the best, by investing in both the highway system as well as car companies so people no longer had to take public transportation as much reducing the need to have more expensive trains. They did this by providing more autonomy to the public and made the public not dependent on governmental policy to fix the platform problem.

In essence, politicians looked at the whole problem (human transportation) instead of a tiny aspect of the problem (people falling off of platforms)

+1 politicians
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 18:48 GMT
#519
On September 14 2011 03:41 lorkac wrote:
The price system is an organically grown process that organized and made easier the sharing of resources from the original barter system.
Non-Price systems are merely attempts to fix something that naturally came out of society by people who dislike it.

[image loading]

Austrian School economist Friedrich A. Hayek argued that a free price system allowed economic coordination via the price signals that changing prices sent, which is regarded as one of his most significant and influential contributions to economics.[5]
From "The Use of Knowledge in Society"...'The price system is just one of those formations which man has learned to use (though he is still very far from having learned to make the best use of it) after he had stumbled upon it without understanding it. Through it not only a division of labor but also a coördinated utilization of resources based on an equally divided knowledge has become possible. The people who like to deride any suggestion that this may be so usually distort the argument by insinuating that it asserts that by some miracle just that sort of system has spontaneously grown up which is best suited to modern civilization. It is the other way round: man has been able to develop that division of labor on which our civilization is based because he happened to stumble upon a method which made it possible. Had he not done so, he might still have developed some other, altogether different, type of civilization, something like the "state" of the termite ants, or some other altogether unimaginable type'...Friedrich A. Hayek[6]

I Am The Price System
Some Historic aspects of money... Money, History and Energy accounting
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 18:54:29
September 13 2011 18:52 GMT
#520
On September 14 2011 03:46 lorkac wrote:
Politicians solved the platform problem the best, by investing in both the highway system as well as car companies so people no longer had to take public transportation as much reducing the need to have more expensive trains. They did this by providing more autonomy to the public and made the public not dependent on governmental policy to fix the platform problem.
In essence, politicians looked at the whole problem (human transportation) instead of a tiny aspect of the problem (people falling off of platforms)
+1 politicians


Nice try buddy.

Design. The end-products of design are radically different,
if one lays out the whole scheme of a given function in advance
and then works down to the details, from what they would be if
one started on the details and worked from them to the more
general complex. For example, the steamship Normandie has
been able to break world speed records and to exhibit other points
of functional excellence merely because these high points of per-
formance were written into the specifications before a single minor
detail was ever decided upon. The design of a ship to meet these
broader specifications automatically determines that the minor
details be of one sort rather than a number of others The specifica-
tion that the Normandie was to be the fastest steamship ever built
automatically determined the shape of the hull, the power of the
engines, and numerous other smaller details.

Suppose the procedure had been in reverse order. Suppose
that some one person decided independently upon the shape of the
hull; suppose that a second designed the engines, determining
what power and speeds they should have. Let a third design the
control apparatus, etc. It is a foregone conclusion that a ship de-
signed in any such manner, if she remained afloat or ran at all,
would not break any records.

For any single functional unit the design specifications for
the performance of the whole must be written, and then the details
worked out afterwards in such a manner that the performance
of the whole will equal the original specifications laid down.

The trouble with design in a social mechanism heretofore has
been that neither the specifications nor the design has ever gone
beyond the stage of minute details. We have designed houses by
the thousands, but no one has ever designed a system of housing
on a continental scale. We have designed individual boats, auto-
mobiles, locomotives, railway cars, and even articulated stream-
lined trains and individual airplanes, but no one has ever designed
a continental system of transportation. Even these latter units
are only individual details in the design of a whole operating social
mechanism. Even a design that embraced whole functional se-
quences would be inadequate unless it in turn was guided by the
super-design of the entire social mechanism.
- Technocracy Study Course
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 18:54 GMT
#521
On September 14 2011 03:41 tech information wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 14 2011 03:38 lorkac wrote:Technocracy is nothing new and it's nothing interesting.

Why are you posting in a discussion about Technocracy then if you don't find it interesting. Get a life.


So I say "technocracy isn't doing anything new"

You respond with

"Get a life."

Interesting...

You see, the reason I'm posting on this thread is to show the limitations of blind belief in it's ability to actually discuss a concept. When shown for what it is, technocracy doesn't present anything new or valuable to the human existence that was already present to begin with. However, it attempts to carry an aura of elitism that mostly boils down to "don't give stupid people a say" while attempting to not actually attempt to define "stupid people" because what they actually means is "people we dislike"

They do this by attempting to create this false image of modern day political structures having no "experts on their field" when that is actually very wrong. They need this image because then they would be able to say that "stupid people" means politicians when politicians aren't the only thing holding the governmental systems of the world together. In doing so, they are attempting to sidestep their fascist policy through world play and subterfuge using "I <3 technology" as their cover much like Lenin used "Bread+Land" as his cover. Not only is it nothing new, but it's also already been attempted (although with different specifics) with only the argument of "This time it will work unlike all those other times when we killed the stupid people." In fairness, most the time the stupid people are not killed, but most of the time Stalin is not the one in charge.

But let's say that section of the argument is not looked at--let's just stick to what technocrats are actually trying to say.

Going through the main website and watching many of those videos, they don't actually really say anything different. It all boils down to "If people aren't wasteful, and they're okay with sharing, and they don't really hurt each other, society would be awesome!" Which is true, albeit, as I have said many times, childish
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
fofa2000
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada548 Posts
September 13 2011 18:56 GMT
#522
In fact a good government should admit that it is incompetent in itself. It uses comities of expert to design policies anyway, they're just here to follow a general ideology to please the people.
-smells likes tasty soup, what's the menu?-fresh jaedong style marine stew served with a glass of dragoon slush!-The food's any good?Quite unusual names, never heard-all my food's good, the kitchen's this way-btw whatu terarn doing alone in a zerg colony?
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 19:03:27
September 13 2011 19:00 GMT
#523
On September 14 2011 03:52 tech information wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 14 2011 03:46 lorkac wrote:
Politicians solved the platform problem the best, by investing in both the highway system as well as car companies so people no longer had to take public transportation as much reducing the need to have more expensive trains. They did this by providing more autonomy to the public and made the public not dependent on governmental policy to fix the platform problem.
In essence, politicians looked at the whole problem (human transportation) instead of a tiny aspect of the problem (people falling off of platforms)
+1 politicians


Nice try buddy.

Design. The end-products of design are radically different,
if one lays out the whole scheme of a given function in advance
and then works down to the details, from what they would be if
one started on the details and worked from them to the more
general complex. For example, the steamship Normandie has
been able to break world speed records and to exhibit other points
of functional excellence merely because these high points of per-
formance were written into the specifications before a single minor
detail was ever decided upon. The design of a ship to meet these
broader specifications automatically determines that the minor
details be of one sort rather than a number of others The specifica-
tion that the Normandie was to be the fastest steamship ever built
automatically determined the shape of the hull, the power of the
engines, and numerous other smaller details.

Suppose the procedure had been in reverse order. Suppose
that some one person decided independently upon the shape of the
hull; suppose that a second designed the engines, determining
what power and speeds they should have. Let a third design the
control apparatus, etc. It is a foregone conclusion that a ship de-
signed in any such manner, if she remained afloat or ran at all,
would not break any records.

For any single functional unit the design specifications for
the performance of the whole must be written, and then the details
worked out afterwards in such a manner that the performance
of the whole will equal the original specifications laid down.

The trouble with design in a social mechanism heretofore has
been that neither the specifications nor the design has ever gone
beyond the stage of minute details. We have designed houses by
the thousands, but no one has ever designed a system of housing
on a continental scale. We have designed individual boats, auto-
mobiles, locomotives, railway cars, and even articulated stream-
lined trains and individual airplanes, but no one has ever designed
a continental system of transportation. Even these latter units
are only individual details in the design of a whole operating social
mechanism. Even a design that embraced whole functional se-
quences would be inadequate unless it in turn was guided by the
super-design of the entire social mechanism.
- Technocracy Study Course


So what you're saying is that Howard was stupid in his interview since he only talked about a tiny aspects of a design and real life politicians in the US though about the problem as a whole?

In fact, using your example of the ship, the engineer is actually the least important part of the ship building process since what matter's more is either the public/business/political desire for a fast ship and not the actual construction or knowledge of how to build a fast ship.

According to your example, a centralize decision making process to allow for expedient creation of end goals is more important than a fragmented department of experts each one controlling "only" their respective field.

That's actually a really good argument against technocracy isn't it? Bravo!

EDIT::
City planning actually does exactly what your last paragraph talks about. To a T actually. Like I said, nothing new, nothing interesting and nothing that's already being done currently.
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
Half
Profile Joined March 2010
United States2554 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 19:03:01
September 13 2011 19:02 GMT
#524
I don't get it. Where do you plan for all the inept politicians go? Well they wouldn't just disappear would they. They would all just become engineers. Now we have a shit ton of inept power hungry engineers exploiting scientific repute to gain power and, well, what do you know, two of our trains just collided and we are now burying alive the injured to silence the incident.

what a silly op lol.
Too Busy to Troll!
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 19:03 GMT
#525
On September 14 2011 03:46 lorkac wrote:so people no longer had to take public transportation as much reducing the need to have more expensive trains. They did this by providing more autonomy to the public

Ok ever heard of Peak Oil? You are both completely insane and you are a stooge for Price System corporate interests.
[image loading]
Hittomogasin
Profile Joined September 2011
Finland80 Posts
September 13 2011 19:03 GMT
#526
Humans can never govern them selfs perfectly. Either we evolve into significantly better people, or we are governed by someone/something else instead.

Its all related to point of view:

Tribesman mentality does work in small groups of people living closely to each other, but it dosent work when the leader dosent know everybody he governs. That is authoritarian system and in most cases survival of the most outweights the survival or wellbeing of few.

On larger societies survival is no longer a problem. The fact that the society has grown means that they have abundant food, water and outside hazards no longer threaten the society. The only threats are other large societies or natural disasters. Many such societies still have tribesman mentality and have single leader, king for example.

Todays societies are huge. Thanks to the nuclear weaponry, wars are less common but if they hapen, they are devastating to everybody, even the ones that do not take part of the war. We are able endure many natural disasters, and even deflects some, but we still face disasters that could wipe humans from the planet and the entire race with it. Now we atleast realize that we cannot be lead effectively by single man or woman. Most of us elect people to lead us, but that is as much curse, as its blessing. We are still tribesmen, we are still greedy, powerhungry assholes, and the most greedy and ruthless often raise to the top. Corruption is inevitable.

Personally im considered "sleeping voter" as i am not voting most of the time. This is because i do not know of any candidate that id trust my nations for. If i vote, it tends to be because i wish to change those in power to anything that even remotely agree with me. When im sleeping, it means that our leaders are doing atleast some good and i have no good enough reason to start messing it up. I absolutely loathe anyone who votes someone for nonpolitical reasons. For example, most common mistake is to vote someone because of the good looks. Or maybe the person was accomplished sports figure. Dosent matter. Both are bullshit reasons to vote.

So, how do i know my leaders arent worthless? Their training is imporant. We do not need astrophysicist to tell us how to fix our currensy, that'd be missing the point. However, astrophysicist could and should warn us from incoming meteorite and we should heed hes advice on how to deal with it instead of some general with punch of idle nuclear warheads at hes disposal. That would be missing the point again and it could infact be very, very bad thing for us in other ways.

Thinking this way, wed wind up with whole punch of professionals, and no matter how good they are at communicating and doing their work, our decision making would slow down. It might slow down to the point nothing gets done in time for it to matter. This is why i think that large powers such as soviet union or current EU could never work. If the process is speeded up, the decisions become worse and more shortsighted.

With the current methods available, something like USA system could work the best where small groups of people elect their government to deal with local problems, while whole USA elects people to work on matters that effect entire nation, like foreign politics. For example, ministers in EU dont know jacks shit about agriculture in Finland, so they should leave those decisions strictly to finnish them selfs.

Together we can make sure that warlike nations can never match our army such as NATO or USA army. Together we can decide how we market fairly between each other. Together we can advance in science and well being of everybody in our unions. BUT those just hapen to be decision our current political system allow smoothly. Minister from france or germany dosent know anything about problems in finland, and finnish ministers do not know the problems of in france or germany.

Maybe in future we have evolved into fair and caring people with supreme intellectual power or technology to make everybody happy. Or maybe we build the God thats going to rule us fairly, with justice and logic etcetc..
Trolling: mental illness or acceptable social phenomena?
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 19:04 GMT
#527
On September 14 2011 04:02 Half wrote:
I don't get it. Where do you plan for all the inept politicians go? Well they wouldn't just disappear would they. They would all just become engineers. Now we have a shit ton of inept power hungry engineers exploiting scientific repute to gain power and, well, what do you know, two of our trains just collided and we are now burying alive the injured to silence the incident.

what a silly op lol.


lololololol

I almost died, I was drinking tea and nearly choked to death from laughter lol

I should sue you for attempted murder

lol
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
Capped
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom7236 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 19:06:09
September 13 2011 19:05 GMT
#528
On August 12 2011 16:49 AustinCM wrote:
Do you think that a Technocracy could work anywhere in the world?

What is a Technocracy you ask?

A Technocracy is a form of government in which engineers, scientists, health professionals, and other technical experts are in control of decision making in their respective fields.

So do you think that it would be able to accelerate scientific discovery and advancement and how do you think it would affect the economy of the given country?\

I for one feel that this is exactly what we need and will end the OP with a quote from Winston Churchill.

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

How about this, I imagine a technocracy having about a dozen represenatives in each field and their decisions would need a scientific research paper sort of outlining why they made their decision, so people in those respective fields can peer review their decisions. I think that would be able to prevent any corruption.


While i agree it is a better concept than democracy by FAR in theory.

In reality scientists bitch and argue more then politicians and little girls. There would rarely ever be a decision agreed upon, decisions would be made more slowly.

Also, when some neural implant comes out proven to "increase" brain power (etc etc ive had a few drinks) all scientists will be agreed on the fact it is beneficial to the human kind - Do you want to have something implanted in your head as law?

EDIT: Last paragraph was an example. Dont take me literally, its just something that is likely to happen with scientists in control; You MUST take this / have this done to you because of X and X
Useless wet fish.
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 19:07:31
September 13 2011 19:06 GMT
#529
Ok ever seen the movie IDIOCRACY I suggest you see it you will see yourselves there.
DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5079 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 19:09:10
September 13 2011 19:08 GMT
#530
i think this guy is just a stooge for the new world order

what ya gonna do when hollywood and the nWo run wild on YOU, brother, with their energy "certificates"

(which look suspiciously like debit cards, as in government through the banks has control over all currency as all currency is electronic... bad idea)
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 19:09 GMT
#531
On September 14 2011 04:03 tech information wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 14 2011 03:46 lorkac wrote:so people no longer had to take public transportation as much reducing the need to have more expensive trains. They did this by providing more autonomy to the public

Ok ever heard of Peak Oil? You are both completely insane and you are a stooge for Price System corporate interests.
[image loading]


Yes, of course, non-public transport is *only* dependent on oil

Oh wait, as technology changes the specific *means* of transportation changes but not the *needs* of populace for non-public transport.

+1 politicians again

Please, stop being silly since you're making politicians look good which should never be the case.
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 19:11 GMT
#532
On September 14 2011 04:06 tech information wrote:
Ok ever seen the movie IDIOCRACY I suggest you see it you will see yourselves there.


I love how your arguments get more "complex" over time

Ooh! Ooh! I can join in!

Ever seen Terminator 2?

Ooh! Ooh! Let's be less actiony!

Ever seen Gattaca?

Ooh! Ooh! Even better!

Ever seen Pleasantville?

lol I love this game! Let's see how many other movies we can bring up
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
gosublade
Profile Joined May 2011
632 Posts
September 13 2011 19:11 GMT
#533
It would be definitely be better than democracy(democracy my ass) but the human race is fucked no matter what. There is a saying that goes with this. A person is smart but people are dumb.

This huge mass of humans that have populated earth are so easily manipulated by abusing the flaws of our brains. Our logic needs a shift. How it would happen or will it ever, can't say yet. Buts thats kinda difficult too. We need to find a solid barrier between selfishness and selflessness.

Yeah, were fucked no matter what. Too late :/
Not even death can save you from me.
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 19:12:38
September 13 2011 19:12 GMT
#534
No Technocracy is anti-New World Order and corporate elite interests. There are not enough resources in the world to sustain such a large population. Only in North America, with 52% of the world's resources and only 15% of the population can a high standard of living be maintained. I suggest you read the article GLOBALONEY FANTASY by Wilton Ivie one of the most respected Technocrats.
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 19:14:41
September 13 2011 19:13 GMT
#535
Stop selling your Continent to foreign interests.
Tschis
Profile Joined November 2010
Brazil1511 Posts
September 13 2011 19:13 GMT
#536
I think it wouldn't matter that much if they were also all corrupts who actually voted for their interest instead of what is best in their field of study.

And then, if you could eliminate corruption, you could probably enjoy democracy...

But I'd say yes... Because I want to believe people who have studied enough to be masters at their profession are less likely to be corrupted, or to commit corruption in the same grave state that I see politics commiting in Brazil.
"A coward is not someone that runs from a battle knowing he will lose. A coward is someone who challenges a weak knowing he will win."
DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5079 Posts
September 13 2011 19:15 GMT
#537
Wilton Ivie was an entomologist.

No doubt his study of spiders gave him great insights into political and social science for humans.
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 19:18 GMT
#538
If Technocracy Technate design is not adopted population to resources will have to balance out through war, famine, and population depletion. That is the New World Order's credit-debit scheme. That will entail social fascism, like it has during the whole of human history. Still think Technocracy is not important?
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 19:25:59
September 13 2011 19:23 GMT
#539
On September 14 2011 04:15 DeepElemBlues wrote:
Wilton Ivie was an entomologist.

No doubt his study of spiders gave him great insights into political and social science for humans.


You are retarded. Technocracy is not about social science, economics, or politics. We have nothing whatsoever to learn from those fields. Biology yes because man is himself an organism, and derives his food from other organisms . Read his famous article called The Ecology of Man

Technocracy has always insisted that the type of social operation it offers is not just desirable; it is necessary. As we peruse this pamphlet we ask ourselves the question, `Can man continue to live at all on this Continent without drastically changing his methods of management?'

This is not a pleasant pamphlet to read. It will frighten the reader into realizing just how close to the edge our plundering Price System has led us, and how casually our ignorant political and financial leaders are ignoring the facts of life. It is this persistent refusal to face facts that has been the cause of all our difficulties as a nation in the past thirty years.

Ecology is the study of organisms in relation to their environment. Since no one organism lives strictly to itself, the study of ecology involves the inter-relationships of many organisms as well as the relationships of these organisms with the non-organic environment.
Half
Profile Joined March 2010
United States2554 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 19:32:38
September 13 2011 19:27 GMT
#540
On September 14 2011 04:18 tech information wrote:
If Technocracy Technate design is not adopted population to resources will have to balance out through war, famine, and population depletion. That is the New World Order's credit-debit scheme. That will entail social fascism, like it has during the whole of human history. Still think Technocracy is not important?


What if the technate is perhaps a ruse perpertrated by the upper enclaves of the Illuminati order, comrade? Perhaps it in itself is just a ruse in instituting the facist enterprises, by giving us the illusions of two opposition choices that are actually both part of the greater whole, simulating a dialectical conflict that will sere as a vanishing mediator to ensure the stable transition human society into the 2nd echelon, and the age of the seven lights will begin as we feared.

I fear we have been deceived brother. Flee safe house 13. Flee while you still can!. The bee has entered the hive. I repeat the bee has entered the hive.
Too Busy to Troll!
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 19:27 GMT
#541
On September 14 2011 04:12 tech information wrote:
No Technocracy is anti-New World Order and corporate elite interests. There are not enough resources in the world to sustain such a large population. Only in North America, with 52% of the world's resources and only 15% of the population can a high standard of living be maintained. I suggest you read the article GLOBALONEY FANTASY by Wilton Ivie one of the most respected Technocrats.


According to Wilton

"let us demonstrate that we have the capacity to operate our own area—the North American Continent. Let us first provide freedom from want and fear for North Americans and demonstrate its feasibility within our own area."

Translation: Fuck the world until we know that we are truly happy and perfect.

Since it's impossible to be truly free of desires (want) and fear, this is akin to saying "Fuck the world forever"

Hmm.... Sounds pretty crazy to me. Was he a former pageant contestant who kept saying his dream was world peace?

What's his expertise again...

Oh right! Spiders. If I want to know how to deal with global economies resource management, I ask Spiderman. Oh wait--that's the democrating way of thinking isn't it?

How do technocrats work? Oh right, they say fuck you to people without a PhD on the subject trying to make decisions for them. So Wilton must have gotten a big middle finger when he published this-

"by Wilton Ivie one of the most respected Technocrats." -tech information

Oh right. Hypocrisy. People only need to be experts in the field they're talking about--unless you already like them then they count. Oh wait! Isn't this the problem I've been talking about since I joined this discussion?

Oh that sucks. Sorry dude. I didn't mean for you to prove me right.
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 19:29 GMT
#542
On September 14 2011 04:27 Half wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 14 2011 04:18 tech information wrote:
If Technocracy Technate design is not adopted population to resources will have to balance out through war, famine, and population depletion. That is the New World Order's credit-debit scheme. That will entail social fascism, like it has during the whole of human history. Still think Technocracy is not important?


What if the technate is perhaps a ruse perpertrated by the upper enclaves of the Illuminati order, comrade? Perhaps it in itself is just a ruse in instituting the facist enterprises, by giving us the illusions of two opposition choices that are part of the greater scheme, the ensuing conflict serving as a vanishing mediator to ensure stable transition to the next phase of the plan?

I fear we have been deceived brother. Flee safe house 13.Flee while you still can!. The bee has entered the hive. I repeat the bee has entered the hive.


The Bee has entered the Hive?

[image loading]
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
September 13 2011 19:30 GMT
#543
"Technocracy is not a Price System in which it uses metrical measurement, not an economical theory of value."

Semantics. A distribution / energy credit scheme invovles a planning authority setting a number value (price) on goods and services.

You can argue that it is somehow different but it is not.

The planning authority sets the number based upon forecasted demand which corresponds to their production schedule in a manner set to avoid shortages.

Planned economies don't work. Even if they use a medium of exchange that is less useful than money.

JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
September 13 2011 19:33 GMT
#544
On September 14 2011 04:03 tech information wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 14 2011 03:46 lorkac wrote:so people no longer had to take public transportation as much reducing the need to have more expensive trains. They did this by providing more autonomy to the public

Ok ever heard of Peak Oil? You are both completely insane and you are a stooge for Price System corporate interests.
[image loading]


Peak oil is a great example of why price systems work so well. As oil supply fails to meet demand prices rise. This incentivises producers to produce from previously uneconomic wells and develop new technologies for oil extraction. The rise in price also encourages users to become more efficient with their use of oil.

All the while the economy is free to function withough the disruptive effects of supply shortages.
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 19:38 GMT
#545
On September 14 2011 04:27 Half wrote:
What if the technate is perhaps a ruse perpertrated by the upper enclaves of the Illuminati order, comrade? Perhaps it in itself is just a ruse in instituting the facist enterprises, by giving us the illusions of two opposition choices that are part of the greater scheme, the ensuing conflict serving as a vanishing mediator to ensure stable transition to the next phase of the plan?


Martial Law conscripts men alone. That is fascism in the service of elite corporate interests. Total Conscription as it has been proposed by Howard Scott conscripts Men, Machines, Materials, and Money, with Service from All and Profits to None. There lies the distinction to remember when chaos sets in on the North American Continent.

[image loading]


"So it has come about that Technocracy, in the full blaze of world publicity, will experience attempted exploitation by those with whom it has, and can have, nothing in common. The politicians and debt merchants of the day will be moved to employ Technocracy as one of the cornerstones of a new political state; they may even go so far that, under the color of Technocracy, an institutional fascism will be introduced as one of the dictatorial prerequisites of the incoming president. This and many other efforts will be made to utilize the work which Technocracy so quietly initiated, but we, ourselves, will consistently maintain the position from which we started--that you cannot continue to do certain things on this Continent; that people and times have changed, and that any decisive moves toward readjustment must be the responsibility of those who control the policies of this country." - Howard Scott's Hotel Pierre Address

[image loading]
Half
Profile Joined March 2010
United States2554 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 19:40:57
September 13 2011 19:40 GMT
#546
I fear Techinformation may be an enemy agent Lorkac. He proposes we willingly submit to centralized dictatorships in order to resist centralized dictatorships. I am offended that the enemy thinks we are so easy to deceive.

Still. A sleeper agent. There tactics are growing more clever by the day.
Too Busy to Troll!
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
September 13 2011 20:00 GMT
#547
On September 14 2011 04:38 tech information wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 14 2011 04:27 Half wrote:
What if the technate is perhaps a ruse perpertrated by the upper enclaves of the Illuminati order, comrade? Perhaps it in itself is just a ruse in instituting the facist enterprises, by giving us the illusions of two opposition choices that are part of the greater scheme, the ensuing conflict serving as a vanishing mediator to ensure stable transition to the next phase of the plan?


Martial Law conscripts men alone. That is fascism in the service of elite corporate interests. Total Conscription as it has been proposed by Howard Scott conscripts Men, Machines, Materials, and Money, with Service from All and Profits to None. There lies the distinction to remember when chaos sets in on the North American Continent.

[image loading]


"So it has come about that Technocracy, in the full blaze of world publicity, will experience attempted exploitation by those with whom it has, and can have, nothing in common. The politicians and debt merchants of the day will be moved to employ Technocracy as one of the cornerstones of a new political state; they may even go so far that, under the color of Technocracy, an institutional fascism will be introduced as one of the dictatorial prerequisites of the incoming president. This and many other efforts will be made to utilize the work which Technocracy so quietly initiated, but we, ourselves, will consistently maintain the position from which we started--that you cannot continue to do certain things on this Continent; that people and times have changed, and that any decisive moves toward readjustment must be the responsibility of those who control the policies of this country." - Howard Scott's Hotel Pierre Address

[image loading]


Please explain how such a system would handle ..

The Free Rider Problem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem

Tragedy of the Commons
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_tragedy_of_the_commons

Shortages
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortages

lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 20:10 GMT
#548
On September 14 2011 04:40 Half wrote:
I fear Techinformation may be an enemy agent Lorkac. He proposes we willingly submit to centralized dictatorships in order to resist centralized dictatorships. I am offended that the enemy thinks we are so easy to deceive.

Still. A sleeper agent. There tactics are growing more clever by the day.


The awesome is too much for me to take! lololololol
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 20:18 GMT
#549
On September 14 2011 04:40 Half wrote: He proposes we willingly submit to centralized dictatorships in order to resist centralized dictatorships.


Would a Technate be a dictatorship of engineers?

You just love to be brow-beaten don't you. Do you think, with all the installed horsepower we have on this continent, that any individual or group of individuals can dictate the physical operation of that equipment? In other words, you change the laws of mechanics, of physics, of chemistry, at will? Why heavens, wake up... It's the degradation of energy, on this Continent, into use forms and services, and it's those physical laws which dictate, not the individual. Technocracy is proposing a production and distribution of abundance to everyone. On four hours a day, four days a week, for twenty years of service. See if you can match that under your Democrats or Republicans.

How are we ensured of a Technate, and not a dictatorship, if we should have Total Conscription?

Dictatorship in this technological day and age, would still be a decision by opinion, wether it's the opinion of one or a hundred million; what do you do, you just count noses, in the case of the dictatorship it's one nose... In the case of a hundred and forty million it's more noses... Both are stupid. If you change the economic system, to where no individual can acquire economic power, where no individual is permitted the private ownership of public property, but every individual is guaranteed the private ownership of private property. Quite a little difference. Most people wouldn't like that though, because you wouldn't be able to control the production of wheat, or cotton, or coal, or oil, or anything else. That would be public property. In other words you could raise roses if you enjoyed roses, your own books in your home, etc, but you couldn't control the economic processes of this Continent. If there is no private ownership, and there is no political representation, but there is a governance of function, you can't have dictatorship, because for the first time in history, those who would originate must also execute it. Congress, the Senate, never did that in history. They only legislate, and then let the poor sap out here try to operate it.

Still. A sleeper agent. There tactics are growing more clever by the day.


No... They are retarded. Though maybe not as much as you guys. Charlatans and fools are guiding our destiny.

Howard Scott Question and Answer on Technocracy Radio Part 1
Howard Scott Question and Answer on Technocracy Radio Part 2

[image loading]
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 20:22 GMT
#550
If you change the economic system, to where no individual can acquire economic power, where no individual is permitted the private ownership of public property, but every individual is guaranteed the private ownership of private property.


[image loading]

Comrade!
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
Effay
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States153 Posts
September 13 2011 20:27 GMT
#551
This thread is fucking hilarious
Obsession: The weak minded's name for dedication
DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5079 Posts
September 13 2011 20:28 GMT
#552
Comrade!


It's not even that, it's some kind of weird proto-Marxist proto-Capitalist hybrid.
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 20:59 GMT
#553
What is the fundamental difference between a planned social economy and the system you advocate?

Well we had a "planned social economy" under Roosevelt. Now, of course, we are proceeding from the organized planned economy to designed anarchy, under Truman. What do you mean by planned economy. There never was one in this country. Can't have a blueprint for national housing, you've all got to build your own little rathole. Oh you've all got modern, soundproof, air-conditioned houses? You live in them, do you? You can afford them can you? Ah. Not unless your running a racket ...or own a bank. Theres quite a difference, under Technocracy, for the first time in history, the social history of man, the contract of citizenship in this country would guarantee your economic security. So long as you remained a citizen. You have no guarantee today of your economic security whatsoever. You do have the freedom to work, the freedom to pursue it, but you have no guarantee you're going to get anything. Why you even have to buy an insurance policy ...so you're worth more dead than you are alive! Under a Technate there would be no insurance policy, because every citizen under his contract of citizenship would be guaranteed against disease, accidents, old age, or disability. Without exception! Of race, creed, kind or color. And only citizens could live and work in this country. Understand that, under a Technate. Visitors from foreign countries would be the guests of this Continent, but no one would be permitted to live and work here, except citizens. They must be citizens.

How closely are you connected, or associated, with Communism?

In Russia, the only so-called example of a government supposedly operating under Communist principles, they have state banks, savings accounts, bank deposits, the state corporations have stock, the stock is deposited in the state bank, they have bonds, like you buy here, government bonds, in other words it's a Price System, in Russia, exactly as it is here, with one difference. Here it is privately owned, and there it is state-owned. The Russians have collectif farms, the collective farms average 2500 acres each. And each worker on the collective farm has a little plot of ground, little house, little shed, he also, besides working as an employee of the state collective farms, raises a few pigs and chickens and vegetables, and sells over to the private trader. Either to the collective, or in the outside market. Now 2500 acres, with our technological equipment, that's alright for Communist Russia, but for heaven's sake let's get a technological design. Technocracy's agro-technological units are 25 miles by 25 miles. 400000 acres in a unit. What the hell have we got to immitate Russia for? No we're not deprecating the Russians... Communism is sufficiently radical and revolutionary for the whole world. They still have alternatives in Europe. There is no alternative on this Continent. Either you have a technological organisation and a redesign of all production and distribution of all social functioning on this Continent or you have chaos. We of Technocracy consider Communism so far to the right that it's bourgeois. If you're going to have social change on this Continent, don't imitate anyplace else. Let's develop our own. We don't have to borrow from anyplace else on the globe. We've got the ability here, we've got the technological knownledge, we've got the technological equipment. The only thing we lack, is the will to accomplish it. So let's develop a strategy that is as unidirectional for this country and this Continent, as the Russian strategy is for Russia.


[image loading]

Technocracy Radio

[image loading]

PS... keep laughing, just don't say nobody warned you.

JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
September 13 2011 21:08 GMT
#554
"Do you think, with all the installed horsepower we have on this continent, that any individual or group of individuals can dictate the physical operation of that equipment? In other words, you change the laws of mechanics, of physics, of chemistry, at will? Why heavens, wake up... It's the degradation of energy, on this Continent, into use forms and services, and it's those physical laws which dictate, not the individual. "

WHAT? This makes no sense. Machines can be used in various ways to produce various products.

"Technocracy is proposing a production and distribution of abundance to everyone."

How? Through the magic power of mad science?

"If you change the economic system, to where no individual can acquire economic power, where no individual is permitted the private ownership of public property, but every individual is guaranteed the private ownership of private property. Quite a little difference. Most people wouldn't like that though, because you wouldn't be able to control the production of wheat, or cotton, or coal, or oil, or anything else. That would be public property. In other words you could raise roses if you enjoyed roses, your own books in your home, etc"

Oh great, we'll have farmers growing roses instead of food. Great plan bro. Should work as well as other attempts at confiscation of private property into the hands of government expers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivization_in_the_Soviet_Union
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_leap_forward
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 21:11 GMT
#555
you must be running a racket or own a bank
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 21:15 GMT
#556
in any case you are a Price System flunky and a stooge for corporate interests. Not to mention a retard.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
September 13 2011 21:19 GMT
#557
"Now 2500 acres, with our technological equipment, that's alright for Communist Russia, but for heaven's sake let's get a technological design. Technocracy's agro-technological units are 25 miles by 25 miles. 400000 acres in a unit."

Why is this better? Ever hear of diseconomies of scale?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diseconomy_of_scale

lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 21:20 GMT
#558
On September 14 2011 05:59 tech information wrote:
What is the fundamental difference between a planned social economy and the system you advocate?

Well we had a "planned social economy" under Roosevelt. Now, of course, we are proceeding from the organized planned economy to designed anarchy, under Truman. What do you mean by planned economy. There never was one in this country. Can't have a blueprint for national housing, you've all got to build your own little rathole. Oh you've all got modern, soundproof, air-conditioned houses? You live in them, do you? You can afford them can you? Ah. Not unless your running a racket ...or own a bank. Theres quite a difference, under Technocracy, for the first time in history, the social history of man, the contract of citizenship in this country would guarantee your economic security. So long as you remained a citizen. You have no guarantee today of your economic security whatsoever. You do have the freedom to work, the freedom to pursue it, but you have no guarantee you're going to get anything. Why you even have to buy an insurance policy ...so you're worth more dead than you are alive! Under a Technate there would be no insurance policy, because every citizen under his contract of citizenship would be guaranteed against disease, accidents, old age, or disability. Without exception! Of race, creed, kind or color. And only citizens could live and work in this country. Understand that, under a Technate. Visitors from foreign countries would be the guests of this Continent, but no one would be permitted to live and work here, except citizens. They must be citizens.

How closely are you connected, or associated, with Communism?

In Russia, the only so-called example of a government supposedly operating under Communist principles, they have state banks, savings accounts, bank deposits, the state corporations have stock, the stock is deposited in the state bank, they have bonds, like you buy here, government bonds, in other words it's a Price System, in Russia, exactly as it is here, with one difference. Here it is privately owned, and there it is state-owned. The Russians have collectif farms, the collective farms average 2500 acres each. And each worker on the collective farm has a little plot of ground, little house, little shed, he also, besides working as an employee of the state collective farms, raises a few pigs and chickens and vegetables, and sells over to the private trader. Either to the collective, or in the outside market. Now 2500 acres, with our technological equipment, that's alright for Communist Russia, but for heaven's sake let's get a technological design. Technocracy's agro-technological units are 25 miles by 25 miles. 400000 acres in a unit. What the hell have we got to immitate Russia for? No we're not deprecating the Russians... Communism is sufficiently radical and revolutionary for the whole world. They still have alternatives in Europe. There is no alternative on this Continent. Either you have a technological organisation and a redesign of all production and distribution of all social functioning on this Continent or you have chaos. We of Technocracy consider Communism so far to the right that it's bourgeois. If you're going to have social change on this Continent, don't imitate anyplace else. Let's develop our own. We don't have to borrow from anyplace else on the globe. We've got the ability here, we've got the technological knownledge, we've got the technological equipment. The only thing we lack, is the will to accomplish it. So let's develop a strategy that is as unidirectional for this country and this Continent, as the Russian strategy is for Russia.


[image loading]

Technocracy Radio

[image loading]

PS... keep laughing, just don't say nobody warned you.



This is the TLDR version.

Technocracy is not Socialistic because their specific reforms are not exactly the same as other socialist nations.

You see, Technocracy has the government give people property while Price Systems have banks give people property. The two are very different because banks are evil and government is good. Government will not have greedy people in it because only banks gave greedy people in it. What's the worse that could happen?

It's also not like communism because in communism they called their paper money while we technocrats call their paper certificates. Those are very different because certificates have howard's signature in it which looks cool and you can share it with your grand kids. Although you can't buy a 747 with it, because where would you park it?

Check.
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
September 13 2011 21:24 GMT
#559
On September 14 2011 06:15 tech information wrote:
in any case you are a Price System flunky and a stooge for corporate interests. Not to mention a retard.


U mad bro?

P.S. I like your cake. I bet that was an awsome party. Lots of really attractive girls showed up no doubt.
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 21:33 GMT
#560
On September 14 2011 06:15 tech information wrote:
in any case you are a Price System flunky and a stooge for corporate interests. Not to mention a retard.


Yes. People who finds flaws in your system are obviously the enemy. You should round them up and make sure they never have any influence on others. Only smart people are allowed power, not people you consider a retard. How about you set up a camp where you can put everyone that is not to your liking, and then keep them there in order for them to not influence the populace with their Price System opinions. That would ensure the safety of the fatherland!

[image loading]
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
Thetan
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
240 Posts
September 13 2011 21:34 GMT
#561
This reminds me of something that happened over the summer in Massachusetts with a lottery game called Cash WinFall:

http://articles.boston.com/2011-07-31/news/29836200_1_lottery-tickets-claim-prizes-massachusetts-state-lottery

Basically what happened:

Cash WinFall [was] created under former treasurer Timothy Cahill after a lottery player survey showed people wanted a game that had better odds of winning.


And in doing so.....
Because of a quirk in the rules, when the jackpot reached roughly $2 million and no one won, payoffs for smaller prizes swelled dramatically, which statisticians say practically assured a profit to anyone who bought at least $100,000 worth of tickets.


So a lottery (which is supposed to help the state raise money) instead wound up costing the state even more money.

It's stuff like this that is the scary part of democracy - when officials unknowingly do something that any expert would tell you is idiotic just because (to the officials) that it's an easy way to appease their base.

Maybe not a full technocracy - but I think there def. should be at least some standard for communications between politicians and "experts".
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 21:39 GMT
#562
Yes more than 50% of Technocracy's membership are women and Technocracy is very proud of that. Technocracy's women are proud to represent the organisation. You are a dumb internet nerd or whatever though and a shame to your Continent.



[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]

Technocracy Technate Design Women Essay Writers

Technocracy Is For Women Too
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 22:06:15
September 13 2011 21:42 GMT
#563
I'm 90% sure that tech information is a straw man trolling us.

His account was created solely for the purposes of posting in this thread and all he's done is spam pages of BS from Technocracy Incorporated, which is a single group which advocates for a specific, outdated concept of technocracy.

It's about as representative of Technocracy as modern China is representative of Marxist Communism.
Grumbaki
Profile Joined September 2010
Belgium141 Posts
September 13 2011 21:43 GMT
#564
I'm all in for a technocratic democracy.

Just follow the idea

1- Ensure free and equal access to education

2- organize totally free of (even implicit) charges tests of knowledge. those can be passed at any age.
2a- tests are ranked by levels i.e. 1 to 5
2b- lower ranks tests (1 or 2) are common for everyone. They test basic knowledge of how democracy and government function.
2c- higher level tests differenciate topics: finance, public health, defense, security and so forth. Not on a technical point of view but more from a modern issues and policy making point of view.

3- depending on what test an individual was able to pass, he receive a different number of votes.
3a- Ensure that no small group can reach 51% of the votes
3b- Ensure that level 0 citizens can't reach 51% if they vote all together

4(optional)- If you go full on direct democracy, votes can be relative to the subject matter. A level 5 finance citizen would only have level 2 votes on public health topics for exemple. People can pass multiple high level tests if they wish to guarantee more votes in all topics.

Now the only counter argument to that system is that you broke the equality of citizens in their political rights to vote. You didn't break the whole equality as civil rights and so on would be set in constitution. Revision of said constitution would require a flat 1 citizen 1 vote qualified majority vote.
My own counter argument to your point would be that the practice already broke the voting system. Implicit and explicit abstentionists are from very defined socio economic classes.
Gruik
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 21:49 GMT
#565
There is no "technocratic democracy" or any other "technocracy" than that proposed by Howard Scott Technocracy Inc. and the Technical Alliance. That is oligarchy and has nothing to do with what we are discussing here. If there was another solution the Technocrats would know about it. It is not up for debate or open to suggestions from people who are ignorant of Technocracy's design. Why do you think it has remained unchanged for almost a century, ready to be implemented at any moment as soon as the American people stop sitting on their brains? Investigate Technocracy and stop trying to mix in your own stupid ideas.
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
September 13 2011 21:49 GMT
#566
On August 12 2011 16:49 AustinCM wrote:
Do you think that a Technocracy could work anywhere in the world?

What is a Technocracy you ask?

A Technocracy is a form of government in which engineers, scientists, health professionals, and other technical experts are in control of decision making in their respective fields.

So do you think that it would be able to accelerate scientific discovery and advancement and how do you think it would affect the economy of the given country?\

I for one feel that this is exactly what we need and will end the OP with a quote from Winston Churchill.

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

How about this, I imagine a technocracy having about a dozen represenatives in each field and their decisions would need a scientific research paper sort of outlining why they made their decision, so people in those respective fields can peer review their decisions. I think that would be able to prevent any corruption.


The problem is that the smartest people in the world can't make the right decisions for something as complicated as an economy.

It's the stupidity behind stimulus and bailouts. The idea that you can make decisions better than the consumer and the market is completely asinine. Not even the best geniuses can predict the stock market, and even monkeys have better results then the best analysis by computers. This is because new informations changes things so quickly.

Any government run by 'smart people' trying to make decisions is ruinous. It's facist. It's like saying if you have a good community/facist government, it'll work. It doesn't. It's because no matter what decisions a leader might make, there's no decision that is more efficient and perfect than the general public market making decisions in which companies deserve money based on the confidence in the company by the general public, which is usually due to quality of service and price of goods.

You have someone giving money to companies that deserve to die out, all you have is that the good companies suffer competition against an inferior opponent and not have money to invest in research into products that are superior.

That's the huge flaw with the government right now trying to give money to Green energy. I'm all for green energy, I have stock in quite a few green energy companies so don't get me wrong, but the government cannot possibly know which green company, or even green energy, is best. All that happens is they invest into random companies, and then have no motive to NOT lose all their fucking money, which is in reality the taxpayers money, because they are government and don't lose their jobs or income based on these choices, like people do who are investing their nest eggs for retirement. And then, these companies they invest it, may actually be detrimental to green energy, as they may be incompetent, but the competent company is not receiving the investment that they deserve.

There's been quite a few recent events where green companies that local governments in CA invested into went bankrupt, and it hurts the townspeople who's money it was that was invested by ruining their retirement portfolios, and every green company gets hurt by the negative press that a company with similar product went bankrupt, even if it was because that company was incompetent and not because of a bad product.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 21:53 GMT
#567
[image loading]

User was warned for this post
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 21:55:54
September 13 2011 21:55 GMT
#568
On September 13 2011 22:56 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Don't you fucking understand that something like universal healthcare is not a question of "efficiency", not even a question of cost, pr anything like that, but it's a philosophical question and that there are no specialist who can deiced for you if you want to live in a society where everybody can go to hospital for free or not?


Stop. What you are doing is deciding a priori that universal healthcare is a philosophical question, that it is a question that should be solved by having people vote on it. This is a cheap emotional tactic that you can apply to anything. Taxes are a "philosophical" issue too. So is government regulation. Whether we want to vaccinate everyone is a "philosophical issue" even if it's fucking obvious that it saves lives.

All you're doing here with your talk of "philosophy" and "rights" is a side-stepping any rational debate as to the pros and cons of any government decision. It's the same bullshit that conservatives do all the time in the United States, in order to argue a position that is clearly unsuspported by logic, fact, or science.

On September 13 2011 22:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
You just started a political discussion. Oh, and nobody is right. Everybody thinks he is right, but, surprise! we just have different opinions.


The reality is that there is frequently a Pareto efficiency for most questions of government. When there are multiple Pareto efficiencies, then we have a question of philosophy, and citizens can vote on that. Otherwise, there is no debate. Some outcomes are clearly better than others when we measure the costs and benefits.

On September 13 2011 22:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Me, as a citizen, want to live in a society where a homeless who break an arm can go to hospital and have it fix, with my taxes.

That's a choice, you understand? There is no scientist who can tell you if it's right or wrong. It's not right or wrong, it's how I think society should be because the opposite, I would find monstrous. That's obviously not the case of someone who vote for the American Republicans.


You're wrong. It is possible to measure the marginal utility of allowing homeless people to get medical care, and compare this to the costs of implementation. No matter how much you like universal health care, if it breaks the back of government and makes everybody homeless, it's not worth it and you wouldn't support it. And likewise, if it's cheap enough, even American Republicans wouldn't be against it. What it comes down to is cost-benefit analysis.
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 21:56 GMT
#569
[image loading]
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
September 13 2011 21:58 GMT
#570
On September 14 2011 06:34 Thetan wrote:
This reminds me of something that happened over the summer in Massachusetts with a lottery game called Cash WinFall:

http://articles.boston.com/2011-07-31/news/29836200_1_lottery-tickets-claim-prizes-massachusetts-state-lottery

Basically what happened:

Show nested quote +
Cash WinFall [was] created under former treasurer Timothy Cahill after a lottery player survey showed people wanted a game that had better odds of winning.


And in doing so.....
Show nested quote +
Because of a quirk in the rules, when the jackpot reached roughly $2 million and no one won, payoffs for smaller prizes swelled dramatically, which statisticians say practically assured a profit to anyone who bought at least $100,000 worth of tickets.


So a lottery (which is supposed to help the state raise money) instead wound up costing the state even more money.

It's stuff like this that is the scary part of democracy - when officials unknowingly do something that any expert would tell you is idiotic just because (to the officials) that it's an easy way to appease their base.

Maybe not a full technocracy - but I think there def. should be at least some standard for communications between politicians and "experts".


The game is still profitable for the state ($11.8m in profits in 2011) and was likely created by experts.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
September 13 2011 21:59 GMT
#571
On September 13 2011 22:58 tech information wrote:
You are discussing meritocracy, not Technocracy, which is a completely different concept. Get that into your head. The fact that propagandists and incompetents have coopted the word does not allow you to do the same.


No, I'm not. Just because you are insistently using some highly limited, archaic definition of the word by a single long-dead organization doesn't mean that it's true

On September 13 2011 22:58 tech information wrote:
Economics is not a science. Political science is not a science. Morality control is not a science. Chemistry is. Biology is. Geology is. Physics is.


No. Economics and political science are both social sciences.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
September 13 2011 22:01 GMT
#572
On September 14 2011 06:39 tech information wrote:
Yes more than 50% of Technocracy's membership are women and Technocracy is very proud of that. Technocracy's women are proud to represent the organisation. You are a dumb internet nerd or whatever though and a shame to your Continent.



[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]

Technocracy Technate Design Women Essay Writers

Technocracy Is For Women Too


Any women join your cult since the invention of color photography?
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 22:05 GMT
#573
On September 14 2011 06:49 Belial88 wrote:
The problem is that the smartest people in the world can't make the right decisions for something as complicated as an economy.

It's the stupidity behind stimulus and bailouts. The idea that you can make decisions better than the consumer and the market is completely asinine. Not even the best geniuses can predict the stock market, and even monkeys have better results then the best analysis by computers. This is because new informations changes things so quickly.

Any government run by 'smart people' trying to make decisions is ruinous. It's facist. It's like saying if you have a good community/facist government, it'll work. It doesn't. It's because no matter what decisions a leader might make, there's no decision that is more efficient and perfect than the general public market making decisions in which companies deserve money based on the confidence in the company by the general public, which is usually due to quality of service and price of goods.

You have someone giving money to companies that deserve to die out, all you have is that the good companies suffer competition against an inferior opponent and not have money to invest in research into products that are superior.


Yes exactly. That's because money is not a measurement of anything real, it is a measurement of value. That's why economics is not a science. Running the whole world with money becomes dangerous and downright suicidal in this age of high-energy conversion and advanced technology. Scientific metrical measurement is a must. Not commodity evaluation and economic guessing for erratic exchange. AXIOLOGY: From the Greek, meaning a student of the theory of values. Axiology, the theory of values, their unique forms and inter-relationships, as the True, the Beautiful, the Good, contrasted with the scientist, whose proper concern is with quantities, their precise measurement, correlation and control in the interests of knowledge and the service of man.

Look at the differences between the Distribution Certificate, which is a medium of distribution, and money which is a medium of erratic exchange which uses commodity evaluation. It's written on the picture of the cake.

[image loading]

That's the huge flaw with the government right now trying to give money to Green energy.


Yes. Read this article:

It Really Doesn't Grow On Trees
Stephen L. Doll
1997
Published in:
 The Northwest Technocrat, 1st quarter 1997, No. 346
The stripping of rainforests for monetary profit points up a vital truth -- we are dead set on a collision course between human ambition and the hard, cold realities of physical science.
The world operates on two economic systems. The one is our true wealth, the physical planet we inhabit and its many diverse and interconnected systems -- of which we are a part. All activities of this economy are concrete, measurable quantities, based in physical science. The other economy, that dictates the thoughts and actions of commercial society, is the financial one whereby we decide who gets how much of the product of the natural economy. The principles of this artificial economy are not found in any book on physical science. They exist only in the murky and unfathomable depths of human imagination, opinion and desire. You can't eat this economy, drink it, or build a house from it. In this age of electronic funds transfer, it doesn't even require physical evidence of itself.
It's no longer a matter of how we slice the pie. It's a matter of whether there is a pie at all. You can't mix physical properties with philosophical pecking orders, particularly in a social system in which we perversely reward the consumers of resources with imaginary tokens allowing them to consume more resources. And, as resources dwindle and become more precious, each of us is required to make even more money to survive. We are sacrificing the earth for a mess of pottage, and misdirected technology has accelerated the trend. In our headlong pursuit of financial "rewards", we have given little thought to the very simple fact that it is the physical that supports the financial -- not the other way around. Yet even our efforts to maintain a habitable planet must meet the criterion of "cost effectiveness". In other words, even the fate of life on earth itself is subject to the "What's in it for me?" of monetary gain.
This is a point of distinction that somehow escapes even the most die- hard of environmentalists, who cling to the myth that with the coin of the realm, we can buy or bribe our way to ecological reclamation.
At the World Conference on Population in Cairo in 1994, Jacques Cousteau made the following comment: "Let us jump ahead to the year 2030. Then the world's resources will be difficult to share. Their fullness can be evaluated today, using the most sophisticated science and technology to obtain the best yield from them while using our sense of justice to assure equitable distribution. Energy will be the money of the future, determining the real value of goods instead of basing the economy on the desire of artificially tempted customers." For the record, at the rate we are rendering the earth uninhabitable for increasing numbers of life forms, we probably do not have that long to go.
In 1933, The Continental organization of Technocracy made the same pronouncement on the basis of an objective, non-political analysis of available energy and resources, but they took it a step farther. They proposed a switch from a monetary economy to one based on physical factors, and outlined a program for an orderly transition. It even provided a "sense of justice" in equal, but not identical, access to goods and services for the entire population. It is the only organization in existence, or in history, to do so.
A world without money? Or a world without resources? There is no middle ground. Who knows? Maybe we'll be able to survive on dollar-bill sandwiches. Maybe through some mysterious alchemy we can convert all those computer bytes that represent our financial holdings into topsoil or estuaries. But somehow, it is doubtful.
Grumbaki
Profile Joined September 2010
Belgium141 Posts
September 13 2011 22:10 GMT
#574
On September 14 2011 06:49 tech information wrote:
There is no "technocratic democracy" or any other "technocracy" than that proposed by Howard Scott Technocracy Inc. and the Technical Alliance. That is oligarchy and has nothing to do with what we are discussing here. If there was another solution the Technocrats would know about it. It is not up for debate or open to suggestions from people who are ignorant of Technocracy's design. Why do you think it has remained unchanged for almost a century, ready to be implemented at any moment as soon as the American people stop sitting on their brains? Investigate Technocracy and stop trying to mix in your own stupid ideas.


Rejecting an idea because it doesn't fit the definition. Brilliant.

I won't go into details but i'm currently living in the soft technocratic (in the broad meaning) center of 2 democracies due to my job and every single day i see brilliant ideas rejected because of futures elections. Thus the interest for different model.

Now the passeist definition you're serving me quite frankly doesn't interest me the least. The core point is to balance democracy flaws with knowledge.

The mess we are attending right now is the result of the power struggle between democrats, technocrats and bureaucrats. The goal is to find a middle ground that both satisfies results and democratic principles.

Refute the model instead of throwing insults out of your closed mind.
Gruik
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 22:13 GMT
#575
Don't post your nonsense here anymore. You have never heard of Technocracy in your life and you have not been following this discussion.
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 22:15 GMT
#576
On September 14 2011 06:55 sunprince wrote:

You're wrong. It is possible to measure the marginal utility of allowing homeless people to get medical care, and compare this to the costs of implementation. No matter how much you like universal health care, if it breaks the back of government and makes everybody homeless, it's not worth it and you wouldn't support it. And likewise, if it's cheap enough, even American Republicans wouldn't be against it. What it comes down to is cost-benefit analysis.



Step one, assume we care about homeless people.

Step two--oh wait, we're still arguing over step one.

Before people want to figure out what's best, they need to actually care.

How do we know if people care or not? Oh right, argue about it

By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5079 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 22:18:22
September 13 2011 22:16 GMT
#577
All you're doing here with your talk of "philosophy" and "rights" is a side-stepping any rational debate as to the pros and cons of any government decision. It's the same bullshit that conservatives do all the time in the United States, in order to argue a position that is clearly unsuspported by logic, fact, or science.


Hmmm.

No.

Philosophy of government by the people and for the people and inalienable rights are not smokescreens for bad arguments from conservatives, no more than the philosophy of economic egalitarianism and social rights are a smokescreen for bad arguments from liberals.
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
Grumbaki
Profile Joined September 2010
Belgium141 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 22:18:20
September 13 2011 22:17 GMT
#578
On September 14 2011 07:13 tech information wrote:
Don't post your nonsense here anymore. You have never heard of Technocracy in your life and you have not been following this discussion.


I still don't hear a counter argument to the model and how it doesn't fit techno cratos. Call it census democracy based on knowledge if it hurts you too much.

Have fun discussing your 1920's engineer wet dream for power.
Gruik
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 22:19 GMT
#579
Why are you even posting here if you haven't read the discussion
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 22:20 GMT
#580
On September 14 2011 07:13 tech information wrote:
Don't post your nonsense here anymore. You have never heard of Technocracy in your life and you have not been following this discussion.


It actually makes less sense if you actually listen to the youtube videos in the main website.

It also sounds sillier when you read the articles you have linked to.

When you're informed about what your posts actually say, you call them slaves to Price Systems despite people's lack of defending the price system. (Okay, maybe once or twice for the lol)

Do you have an actual counterargument or are you just trolling?
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 22:22:09
September 13 2011 22:20 GMT
#581
Technocracy was America's fastest growing social movement. Nothing like it has ever existed on the face of the earth.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
September 13 2011 22:22 GMT
#582
On September 14 2011 07:16 DeepElemBlues wrote:
Philosophy of government by the people and for the people and inalienable rights are not smokescreens for bad arguments from conservatives, no more than the philosophy of economic egalitarianism and social rights are a smokescreen for bad arguments from liberals.


I'm not equating the two. I'm suggesting that American conservatives make use of it as a rhetorical tactic on a frequent basis (and the reason why has to do with pandering to a religious base which prefers rhetoric over logic).
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 22:23 GMT
#583
They were the first to use and define the word Technocracy and have not decided to change that definition.
Grumbaki
Profile Joined September 2010
Belgium141 Posts
September 13 2011 22:25 GMT
#584
On September 14 2011 07:19 tech information wrote:
Why are you even posting here if you haven't read the discussion


Promise, next time I'll put a post on each page just for you to know I'm reading.

In 30 pages you still didn't noticed that your beloved text book model isn't only not demonstrated as the most performant but also can't be accepted in any way as an alternative model by current societies? Maybe i should have pointed that out for you.
Gruik
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 22:25:53
September 13 2011 22:25 GMT
#585
As I said make another discussion called "expertocracy vs. democracy" and debate the notion of governement of the people vs. governement by experts, or "aristocracy vs. democracy" and debate the notion of governement of the people vs. government of the best. You will find nothing useful will come out of it. But you can't hijack a word you don't own.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
September 13 2011 22:27 GMT
#586
On September 14 2011 07:15 lorkac wrote:
Step one, assume we care about homeless people.

Step two--oh wait, we're still arguing over step one.

Before people want to figure out what's best, they need to actually care.

How do we know if people care or not? Oh right, argue about it


No, you can measure how much people care about homeless people. Economists do calculations like this all the time.

You can either (a) survey people or (b) look at how much of their money/time the average citizen gives to homeless people a year. From here, you can calculate the assigned or implicit value that citizens hold for homeless people (in other words, how much people care).

Using this value, you can calculate how much health care for homeless people is worth to the citizens, and therefore whether the cost is worth it.
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 22:28 GMT
#587
Even if many propagandists and incompetents liberal intellectuals and Vatican and Hearst Corporation stooges of reactionism have done so before. It just isn't honest.
Grumbaki
Profile Joined September 2010
Belgium141 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 22:31:43
September 13 2011 22:31 GMT
#588
On September 14 2011 07:25 tech information wrote:
As I said make another discussion called "expertocracy vs. democracy" and debate the notion of governement of the people vs. governement by experts, or "aristocracy vs. democracy" and debate the notion of governement of the people vs. government of the best. You will find nothing useful will come out of it. But you can't hijack a word you don't own.


What you call hijack I call realistic practical adaptation or even transition model.

I had enough, don't worry I won't post here again unresquested but you have to know that your lack of lateral thinking is turning this thread in a Superman vs Batman thread.
Gruik
DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5079 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 22:33:58
September 13 2011 22:32 GMT
#589
I'm not equating the two. I'm suggesting that American conservatives make use of it as a rhetorical tactic on a frequent basis (and the reason why has to do with pandering to a religious base which prefers rhetoric over logic).


The only two things I can think of where that is the case would be prayer in school and teaching creationism in school, which are not very big issues even if they were in the past. Prayer in school was a big national issue 25ish years ago, but creationism has mostly been a local issue that only gets play nationally because atheists from everywhere get very sensitive about it rightly or wrongly.

Technocracy was America's fastest growing social movement. Nothing like it has ever existed on the face of the earth.


Scientologists would probably be pretty steamed to hear that.
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 22:34:27
September 13 2011 22:33 GMT
#590
so you think you know better than the founding scientists of the Technical Alliance, Howard Scott and a century of Technocrats such that you can make changes at will in the Technate design? who do you think you are
DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5079 Posts
September 13 2011 22:35 GMT
#591
I've never heard of Howard Scott and neither has 99.5% of the population of the US or the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Scott

Scott had "overstated his academic credentials",[5] and he was discovered not to be a "distinguished engineer".[6] [1]
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
Half
Profile Joined March 2010
United States2554 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 22:40:35
September 13 2011 22:37 GMT
#592
On September 14 2011 07:35 DeepElemBlues wrote:
I've never heard of Howard Scott and neither has 99.5% of the population of the US or the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Scott

Show nested quote +
Scott had "overstated his academic credentials",[5] and he was discovered not to be a "distinguished engineer".[6] [1]


lol. I love how all the problems about the ideology are exemplified in its founder.
Too Busy to Troll!
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 22:39 GMT
#593
On September 14 2011 07:31 Grumbaki wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 14 2011 07:25 tech information wrote:
As I said make another discussion called "expertocracy vs. democracy" and debate the notion of governement of the people vs. governement by experts, or "aristocracy vs. democracy" and debate the notion of governement of the people vs. government of the best. You will find nothing useful will come out of it. But you can't hijack a word you don't own.


What you call hijack I call realistic practical adaptation or even transition model.

I had enough, don't worry I won't post here again unresquested but you have to know that your lack of lateral thinking is turning this thread in a Superman vs Batman thread.


The obvious answer is superman prime. He has no need of money, nor open elections and is the best at everything by decree.

Batman is merely a citizen doing his best to help others while trying to make money on the side. Batman is therefore unrealistic.
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
MozzarellaL
Profile Joined November 2010
United States822 Posts
September 13 2011 22:40 GMT
#594
On September 14 2011 07:33 tech information wrote:
so you think you know better than the founding scientists of the Technical Alliance, Howard Scott and a century of Technocrats such that you can make changes at will in the Technate design? who do you think you are

I think anyone with a Bachelor's in industrial engineering knows better than the founding 'scientists' of the Technical Alliance
sorrowptoss
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Canada1431 Posts
September 13 2011 22:40 GMT
#595
Doesn't matter what [inserthere]cracy it is, as long as there are humans there will be corruption etc etc because it's in human nature to be retardedly selfish and short-sighted. It's just a matter of time before everything falls apart. That being said, the fall has already started for 8 million years now, if you see what I mean.
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 22:40 GMT
#596
On September 14 2011 07:32 DeepElemBlues wrote:
Scientologists would probably be pretty steamed to hear that.


Ok why don't you make a discussion called "Scientology vs. democracy" then and talk about the influence of science advisors in government or something. You can't. Ron Hubbard incorporated Scientology in 1953. Scientology is based on his earlier self-help system, Dianetics. Howard Scott incorporated Technocracy in 1933. Technocracy is based on the research and findings of the Technical Alliance of 1918. Nobody had ever heard of it before. What gives you the right to dirty Technocracy's name with your stupid unrelated concepts? Why doesn't anyone coopt Scientology's name?
DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5079 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 22:45:18
September 13 2011 22:43 GMT
#597
Batman is merely a citizen doing his best to help others while trying to make money on the side. Batman is therefore unrealistic.


I have to disagree, I don't think even Superman Prime could stand up to the goddamned Batman's godly level of planning and preparation. He makes Brainiac look like a toddler.

Ok why don't you make a discussion called "Scientology vs. democracy" then and talk about the influence of science advisors in government or something. You can't. Ron Hubbard incorporated Scientology in 1953. Scientology is based on his earlier self-help system, Dianetics. Howard Scott incorporated Technocracy in 1933. Technocracy is based on the research and findings of the Technical Alliance of 1918. Nobody had ever heard of it before. What gives you the right to dirty Technocracy's name with your stupid unrelated concepts? Why doesn't anyone coopt Scientology's name?


Well, if I really wanted to make such a silly thread, I could I guess...

I don't know why no one has co-opted Scientology's name, probably because Scientologists would sue the bejesus out of them.

Also I was teasing you by implying that Scientologists would huffily claim that they are in fact the biggest growing movement in America.
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
Grumbaki
Profile Joined September 2010
Belgium141 Posts
September 13 2011 22:43 GMT
#598
On September 14 2011 07:33 tech information wrote:
so you think you know better than the founding scientists of the Technical Alliance, Howard Scott and a century of Technocrats such that you can make changes at will in the Technate design? who do you think you are


You're asking for it.

According to you own "Technocratic" standard, why the F should a PhD in political science (among other degrees) "young" professional with experience in 4 countries (including special models as PRC and RoC) should be bound to think only in the words of a 1920 self proclaimed "engineer"?

Your dogmatism even prevent european classic Technocracy to be discussed. Are we even allowed to modify the colors of the logo? It's so pre 50...
Gruik
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 22:44 GMT
#599
On September 14 2011 07:40 tech information wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 14 2011 07:32 DeepElemBlues wrote:
Scientologists would probably be pretty steamed to hear that.


Ok why don't you make a discussion called "Scientology vs. democracy" then and talk about the influence of science advisors in government or something. You can't. Ron Hubbard incorporated Scientology in 1953. Scientology is based on his earlier self-help system, Dianetics. Howard Scott incorporated Technocracy in 1933. Technocracy is based on the research and findings of the Technical Alliance of 1918. Nobody had ever heard of it before. What gives you the right to dirty Technocracy's name with your stupid unrelated concepts? Why doesn't anyone coopt Scientology's name?


Can't tell if...

Oh, who am I kidding, obviously trolling but so much fun lol
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5079 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 22:47:22
September 13 2011 22:46 GMT
#600

Oh, who am I kidding, obviously trolling but so much fun lol


who trolls for 6+ straight hours, its a true believer man

i mean really you could get high, eat, take a nap, play sc2, take a shower, get laid, do almost anything in that time to take a break... but no.
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 22:50 GMT
#601
On September 14 2011 07:40 MozzarellaL wrote:
I think anyone with a Bachelor's in industrial engineering knows better than the founding 'scientists' of the Technical Alliance

Haha ok do you even know who they are just look at their profiles they are still recognized as being some of the biggest names in science. You obviously haven't seen my earlier post:



The following are short biographies of the sixteen men and one woman whose research led to the concept of Technocracy and the social design of science--the concept of the Technate of North America, which would be the world's first functional society.

The research and study by the Technical Alliance (New York, NY, 1918-21) marked the first time in history anywhere in the world that a country or a Continent was objectively examined and analyzed on a functionally multidisciplinary and interdisciplinary basis, not as nations and their people have always been compared and rated--and still are--on the basis of their political economic/financial ideology, their military forces, and their philosophical premises. Instead, the Technical Alliance measured and assessed the extent of the land's natural resources of soil, metals, fuels, hydrology and its energy resources, its transport and communications and construction capabilities, its industrial and technological productive capacity, its available scientific, engineering, biological trained personnel--all to determine whether this Continental area could provide an equitably individualized high optimum standard of living for its population, and if so, how this could be brought about.

The Technical Alliance Profiles - The Founding Scientists of Technocracy Inc.

[image loading]

Dr. Richard C. Tolman with Albert Einstein.

[image loading]


Technical Alliance Picture Archive

[image loading]

Those who claim they 'can't see' Technocracy are short on either facts or vision, or they are blinded by selfishness. - Technocracy Is For Women Too - Henrietta Phillips

As for Howard Scott, read this article by William Sheridan an admirer of Howard Scott but opponent of Technocracy: Howard Scott - An Authentic American Radical

ENEMY OF THE BOURGEOISIE
(his own preferred epithet)

Howard Scott was born in West Virginia on the 1 st of April, 1890, the only child of a 19 th century
American logging baron. He was a child prodigy who read (and understood) evolutionary biology
by the time he was four years old. As well as a prodigious intellect, he had a marvelous physique,
and by the time he attended the state university in West Virginia, his six foot frame made him as
adept at football as engineering. He kicked the longest punt in the university's history, and to his
chagrin was more hailed for that feat than his academic record. His father's untimely death cut
short his university education, and he became a practicing engineer.

The predominant intellectual influence on Scott was J. Willard Gibbs (1839 - 1903), the Yale
Professor of Mathematical Physics. Although he never had the opportunity to meet Gibbs, he did
get to know most of Gibbs' students. He read all of Gibbs work, and mastered the innovative
mathematical technique that Gibbs pioneered to represent the thermodynamics of phase changes
in physical chemistry, namely linear vector analysis. Scott has the cognitive capacity to mentally
calculate linear vector analysis with six factors, an ability that made him one in a billion.

The life's work that he set for himself was to develop "a science of geomechanics, for the
operation of large areas of the earth's surface both beneath and above". With the use of linear
vector analysis, he developed The Mathematical Theory of Energy Determinants as a tool to
describe the entire industrial ecology of the North American continent. To earn an income he
worked as a consulting engineer on New York State high-voltage transmission research, and as a
construction technologist on the Muscle Shoals Power Plant on the Tennessee River, etc.

An Early Think Tank

Just after the end of World War 1, he formed one of America's first think tanks, The Technical
Alliance, in association with such notable men of science as Charles P. Steinmetz, Richard C.
Tolman, and Bassett Jones. As executive director of the Technical Alliance, Scott defined the
group's mandate as the conduct of "The Energy Survey of North America".

The premise of Scott's thinking was that anything that functions performs as an "energy
consuming device". This definition covered everything from geophysical systems, through
ecological systems, organisms, populations, tools and machines. What needed to be determined in each case, was the device's rate of extraneous energy consumption, and its efficiency of
converting that energy into work. As an engineer, Scott defined waste as any process which sub-
optimized on its efficiency of energy conversion.

He argued that just like a steam engine, a social system's use of energy could be assessed in terms of efficiency. His postulate for this claim was that "the phenomena involved in the functional
operation of a social system are metrical". Applying his Mathematical Theory of Energy
Determinants to the data from the Energy Survey of North America, he could easily demonstrate
that society was squandering resources, wasting energy, and degrading the ecosystem.

DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5079 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 22:57:47
September 13 2011 22:55 GMT
#602
The premise of Scott's thinking was that anything that functions performs as an "energy
consuming device". This definition covered everything from geophysical systems, through
ecological systems, organisms, populations, tools and machines. What needed to be determined in each case, was the device's rate of extraneous energy consumption, and its efficiency of converting that energy into work. As an engineer, Scott defined waste as any process which sub-optimized on its efficiency of energy conversion.


At last I have understood, there is no contradiction between abundance for everyone and consumption because in the Technate the State will determine supply and demand because the Technocrats are superior at determining that than the actors in the market.

In essence how is this different from the Stalinist Bolshevism of ~1925 - 1941?

Which was also a heavily technocratic society. And large elements of its technocratic nature remained in place throughout the duration of the Soviet Union.
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 23:01 GMT
#603
No the Distribution Certificate simply records everything that was consumed so as to determine how much shall be produced in two years time. It's that simple. The reason for two years is because certain tropical fruits take two years to grow. Only the optimum quality goods and services at a minimum cost in energy and resources are produced, not the shoddy goods, programmed obsolescence and conspicuous consumption we see in the Price System. That way a sustainable abundance can be distributed on the North American Continent for thousands of years to come.
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 23:02 GMT
#604
Its not an option. you can have it nice and easy or you can have resource wars and population control. your choice.
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 23:03 GMT
#605
Social change on the North American Continent is not analogous to social change anywhere else.
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 23:04 GMT
#606
What is the fundamental difference between a planned social economy and the system you advocate?

Well we had a "planned social economy" under Roosevelt. Now, of course, we are proceeding from the organized planned economy to designed anarchy, under Truman. What do you mean by planned economy. There never was one in this country. Can't have a blueprint for national housing, you've all got to build your own little rathole. Oh you've all got modern, soundproof, air-conditioned houses? You live in them, do you? You can afford them can you? Ah. Not unless your running a racket ...or own a bank. Theres quite a difference, under Technocracy, for the first time in history, the social history of man, the contract of citizenship in this country would guarantee your economic security. So long as you remained a citizen. You have no guarantee today of your economic security whatsoever. You do have the freedom to work, the freedom to pursue it, but you have no guarantee you're going to get anything. Why you even have to buy an insurance policy ...so you're worth more dead than you are alive! Under a Technate there would be no insurance policy, because every citizen under his contract of citizenship would be guaranteed against disease, accidents, old age, or disability. Without exception! Of race, creed, kind or color. And only citizens could live and work in this country. Understand that, under a Technate. Visitors from foreign countries would be the guests of this Continent, but no one would be permitted to live and work here, except citizens. They must be citizens.

How closely are you connected, or associated, with Communism?

In Russia, the only so-called example of a government supposedly operating under Communist principles, they have state banks, savings accounts, bank deposits, the state corporations have stock, the stock is deposited in the state bank, they have bonds, like you buy here, government bonds, in other words it's a Price System, in Russia, exactly as it is here, with one difference. Here it is privately owned, and there it is state-owned. The Russians have collectif farms, the collective farms average 2500 acres each. And each worker on the collective farm has a little plot of ground, little house, little shed, he also, besides working as an employee of the state collective farms, raises a few pigs and chickens and vegetables, and sells over to the private trader. Either to the collective, or in the outside market. Now 2500 acres, with our technological equipment, that's alright for Communist Russia, but for heaven's sake let's get a technological design. Technocracy's agro-technological units are 25 miles by 25 miles. 400000 acres in a unit. What the hell have we got to immitate Russia for? No we're not deprecating the Russians... Communism is sufficiently radical and revolutionary for the whole world. They still have alternatives in Europe. There is no alternative on this Continent. Either you have a technological organisation and a redesign of all production and distribution of all social functioning on this Continent or you have chaos. We of Technocracy consider Communism so far to the right that it's bourgeois. If you're going to have social change on this Continent, don't imitate anyplace else. Let's develop our own. We don't have to borrow from anyplace else on the globe. We've got the ability here, we've got the technological knownledge, we've got the technological equipment. The only thing we lack, is the will to accomplish it. So let's develop a strategy that is as unidirectional for this country and this Continent, as the Russian strategy is for Russia.
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 23:06 GMT
#607
The movement is lauded in "Vanity Fair" which says, "Whether Technocracy is the final solution remains to be seen, but it is certainly the most vital movement in the direction of economical rationalization which is being contemplated in any country. Compared to Technocracy, Communism is a sentimental deification of the worker and Socialism is a romantic intellectual movement."
The Technocrat's Newsmagazine 1933
ikl2
Profile Joined September 2010
United States145 Posts
September 13 2011 23:07 GMT
#608

Howard Scott was born in West Virginia on the 1 st of April, 1890, the only child of a 19 th century
American logging baron. He was a child prodigy who read (and understood) evolutionary biology
by the time he was four years old. As well as a prodigious intellect, he had a marvelous physique,
and by the time he attended the state university in West Virginia, his six foot frame made him as
adept at football as engineering. He kicked the longest punt in the university's history, and to his
chagrin was more hailed for that feat than his academic record. His father's untimely death cut
short his university education, and he became a practicing engineer.

The predominant intellectual influence on Scott was J. Willard Gibbs (1839 - 1903), the Yale
Professor of Mathematical Physics. Although he never had the opportunity to meet Gibbs, he did
get to know most of Gibbs' students. He read all of Gibbs work, and mastered the innovative
mathematical technique that Gibbs pioneered to represent the thermodynamics of phase changes
in physical chemistry, namely linear vector analysis. Scott has the cognitive capacity to mentally
calculate linear vector analysis with six factors, an ability that made him one in a billion.

The life's work that he set for himself was to develop "a science of geomechanics, for the
operation of large areas of the earth's surface both beneath and above". With the use of linear
vector analysis, he developed The Mathematical Theory of Energy Determinants as a tool to
describe the entire industrial ecology of the North American continent. To earn an income he
worked as a consulting engineer on New York State high-voltage transmission research, and as a
construction technologist on the Muscle Shoals Power Plant on the Tennessee River, etc.


Oh yeah? Well, Stalin was the smartest, strongest, and most charming man in the world! And gave the best recitation of the Four Seasons ever given in the womb with a violin he fashioned out of flesh. He also could shoot laser beams out of his eyes.

Do you really not see how much of a propaganda piece that is?
DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5079 Posts
September 13 2011 23:11 GMT
#609
cough hes copypasting cough
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 23:11 GMT
#610
it's not about the individual. your the ones who attacked his caracter
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 23:11 GMT
#611
that was written by an opponent of Technocracy by the way
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 23:14 GMT
#612
bottom line is.. all forms of the Price System are doomed and lead to a regression towards social fascism. Technocracy is the only proposal for operating without a Price System. Even if you disagree it bears intense investigation if we are to survive as a high-energy civilization
HellRoxYa
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden1614 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 23:19:05
September 13 2011 23:14 GMT
#613
On September 14 2011 07:27 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 14 2011 07:15 lorkac wrote:
Step one, assume we care about homeless people.

Step two--oh wait, we're still arguing over step one.

Before people want to figure out what's best, they need to actually care.

How do we know if people care or not? Oh right, argue about it


No, you can measure how much people care about homeless people. Economists do calculations like this all the time.

You can either (a) survey people or (b) look at how much of their money/time the average citizen gives to homeless people a year. From here, you can calculate the assigned or implicit value that citizens hold for homeless people (in other words, how much people care).

Using this value, you can calculate how much health care for homeless people is worth to the citizens, and therefore whether the cost is worth it.


Suddenly, a problem arises: Monetary gifts isn't a true indicator of how much people care (about anything). It may very well be measureable but that doesn't mean it's useable like you described.

Edit: Survey might work, not what I wanted to address.
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 23:20 GMT
#614
measurement of physical things, matter and energy, population to resources, and the rate of growth of energy consuming devices is all that matters, not opinions or morality stuff or theories of value
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 23:21 GMT
#615
our present growth in population has been made possible only by the increase in energy consumption
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 23:22 GMT
#616
10 calories of extraneous energy per every 1 calorie of food we consume in the industrialised world
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 23:22 GMT
#617
with peak oil that becomes a problem
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 23:22 GMT
#618
no political or economic theory or morality control will be able to stave off disaster
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 23:23 GMT
#619
got it?
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 23:24 GMT
#620
now stop disparaging Technocracy's good name
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 23:25 GMT
#621
it's really annoying
PSdualwielder
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada77 Posts
September 13 2011 23:27 GMT
#622
maybe not a country, but they should run schools that way.
bnet: POKE
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 23:35 GMT
#623
Technocracy is only applicable on the Continental level. That is the minimum area for sustainability.
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 23:37 GMT
#624
On September 14 2011 08:27 PSdualwielder wrote:
maybe not a country, but they should run schools that way.


They do run schools this way...

English teachers teach English, english teachers run the English department, etc...
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
Mr. Wiggles
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada5894 Posts
September 13 2011 23:37 GMT
#625
Instead of octuple posting, you should use the edit button on the top right of your posts, in the blue bar. Less spam, easier to read.
you gotta dance
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 23:39 GMT
#626
On September 14 2011 08:35 tech information wrote:
Technocracy is only applicable on the Continental level. That is the minimum area for sustainability.


No one I really listening. Mostly just having group laugh fest it's a really funny subject lol.
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 23:40 GMT
#627
On September 14 2011 08:37 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
Instead of octuple posting, you should use the edit button on the top right of your posts, in the blue bar. Less spam, easier to read.


He's just spamming, don't mind him
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 23:41 GMT
#628
What's really annoying is people who don't read the above comments and actually investigate what Technocracy really is instead of posting unrelated nonsense comments
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 23:41 GMT
#629
Yea spamming official Technocracy information in a discussion about Technocracy a system invented by Technocracy Inc.
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 23:42 GMT
#630
Your the one spamming your libertarian wishful thinking my friend
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 23:43 GMT
#631
We did investigate. We did read your link. Don't be mad we laughed at it it's not your fault you didn't see how silly it was.
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 23:43 GMT
#632
Do that somewhere else... maybe in a libertarian discussion group discussing the pros and cons of "fixed" versus "free" Price Systems and discussing the question of ownership between Labor and Management
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 23:44 GMT
#633
Ok people thought that the world was round was silly... same thing for every new scientific discovery... doesn't give you a right to post unrelated stuff here
HellRoxYa
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden1614 Posts
September 13 2011 23:49 GMT
#634
Haven't seen anyone post anything unrelated, however much you want to claim that to be true.
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 13 2011 23:50 GMT
#635
Unrelated? I thought we were supposed to talk about technocratic stuff here

Where is the technocracy thread? I'm sure it's somewhere...

Oh right, it's here. Where we've been talking about it.

Unless you believe anyone who doesn't agree Technocracy has to be silenced? Egad! The horror lol Whatever shall I do! Have you labeled me as one the stupid people yet? I recall you called those who disagreed with you retarded--does that make me retarded? Please inform me oh expert in... what field was that?
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 13 2011 23:56 GMT
#636
anything not related to Technocracy Inc's North American Technate design is unrelated. Price System economic experts and political science experts have nothing to do with Technocracy.
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 00:00 GMT
#637
We did read your link.


That should have been the minimum before creating and posting on this thread called Technocracy.

Now read the Technocracy Study Course and every other link I put. They are all on the internet free of charge. If your not interested in Technocracy's design you are welcome as I said to create another thread to debate "expertocracy/aristocracy/meritocracy vs. democracy", a well known concept that has been debated since Plato's time. What's the big deal?
ikl2
Profile Joined September 2010
United States145 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-14 00:06:11
September 14 2011 00:01 GMT
#638
Yes, that biography was obviously written by an 'opponent' of technocracy. Seriously, the thing is Lying 101; insert an irrelevant anecdote (HE WAS REALLY MAD THAT PEOPLE KNEW HIM BETTER FOR FOOTBALL THAN ACADEMICS) to distract reader from the bigger point (completely unrecognized and uncredentialed person with zero significant expertise claims to know more about absolutely everything than absolutely everyone) and further convince them that obviously the entire thing is true, as the fictional anecdote doesn't strengthen the argument in any way, so it's unclear why the liar would make it up.

I'd be offended by your claim that the only things worth knowing are Physics, Chemistry, and Biology if you weren't worth a giggle.

Edit: Did you know that the word 'organ' is rooted in the Greek 'organon' (which is only spelled differently because of the way case works in Greek) and originally and primarily meant 'tool'? The modern word, as in bodily organ, is actually a metaphor: the body's tool. With strict adherence to the original meaning, that doesn't make much sense. A tool is used to intentionally do something - a body doesn't 'use' it's parts. Thus, you shouldn't use the word 'organ', 'cause it means something different. If you want to talk about parts of your body, you should use your own word.
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 00:02 GMT
#639
Anything not talked about by Howard Scott is not Technocracy but something else. The word was coopted and meaning changed by the Hearst Corporation and the Vatican to disparage Technocracy. Your just falling in their trap.
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 00:04 GMT
#640
He was a close friend of Howard Scott. You can contact him and ask him if your so doubtful. He states specifically at the end of the article that Howard Scott was wrong because he thinks for some wierd reason that the world has unlimited resources.
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 00:25 GMT
#641
Oh yea and if you don't believe William Sheridan here's what Marion King Hubbert (co-founder of Technocracy Inc. and co-author of the Technocracy Study Course) had to say here:

Marion King Hubbert and Technocracy Interview
Oral History Transcript — Dr. M. King Hubbert
Interview with Dr. M. King Hubbert
By Ronald Doel
In Bethesda, MD
January 17, 1989
Niels Bohr Library & Archives, American Institute of Physics, College Park, MD USA,

Doel:
Columbia and New York City was the area where Howard Scott was, and the Technocracy movement. You were involved in that.
Hubbert:
Yes, that's right.
Doel:
Do you recall the first time that you met Scott, how you became involved in it?
Hubbert:
I think so. There was organized down in the Village a club called the Meeting Place. It was made up of professional writers and newspaper people, and architects. It was professional level people. And it occupied what was principally a dining room, also a minimal social lounge, over a restaurant on the ground floor called Lee Chumleys. So that they could have meals served from Lee Chumleys restaurant up there, but it was primarily just an informal social gathering place. So after I'd been there for about a year, one of the secretaries in the department invited me to go down to this place, to meet this very interesting person.
Doel:
This is Howard Scott?
Hubbert:
This is Howard Scott. And I did. And I was pretty much bowled over with the man's scope, knowledge, understanding. It led to a personal friendship, and then the Depression got deeper and deeper. This was about 1931, say, and I kept pushing him to try to get some of the things he was talking about on paper. It was the same kind of thing I'd been working on about mineral resources, energy resources, and so on. And the employment problem. And I should remark by way of background, that following World War I, he had been one of -- practically a leader -- in a small group of a dozen or so people called the Technical Alliance. I used to have their little leaflet of organization, people who were in the main line-up. I can only quote it from memory, but one of them was Tolman(?) later the dean of the graduate school of Caltech, Richard Tolman, and leader in the field of statistical mechanics. He has a big book like that on the subject.
Doel:
Right.
Hubbert:
And he was one of that group. This was largely a group that had been associated one way or the other with World War I, military production including the Wilson Dam on the Tennessee River, the big associated air reduction plant for nitrogen, and a whole bunch of those things. And so after the war, or out of this wartime association and experience, these people kind of got together and formed this little group who were asking fundamental questions about the society in general. Wouldn't it be better if we did things this way instead of this way, etc. One other thing, I'm trying to remember some of their names. Richard Tolman. I think Steinmetz was peripherally involved, at General Electric. The other man who was not in that group but associated it was Stuart Chase, the writer on economic subjects during the thirties. They had quite a number of conferences and discussions, and outside people came in and were members of these discussions groups. One of them was Veblen, and Veblen wrote a book, ENGINEERS IN A CRISIS, out of that association. There was another man I think was from Columbia and I can't remember his name now. He wrote a penetrating book called DEALING WITH CONTEMPORARY SOCIAL PROBLEMS. It was a highly read and regarded book in the late twenties and early thirties, but I can't remember the author's name at the moment or the name of the book. I think he was professor of history, maybe, at Columbia.

So it was a group of that general nature that had died out during the twenties. Then I come along and hear Scott with all his background, and I tried pushing him to try to get things going again. The Depression got deeper and deeper. Oh yes, two other people at the old Technical Alliance. One was an engineer named B. Jones who was a leading consulting engineer in New York state. He had a big consulting engineering office on Park Avenue, I think about 40th St. and Park Avenue. Another was Freddie Ackerman who was one of the top architects in New York. He had a big architectural firm. And these men came back, said, "Let's get going." The other thing was that the Depression was getting deeper and deeper and more and more desperate, with more and more people in the breadlines, including the professional people of the engineering societies and the society of architects. Yet you had this dogma of the time that, oh, by God, we couldn't have the dole. Everybody has to work for a living. So how did you work when you sold apples on the corner of 42nd St and Fifth Avenue and so on? They were doing that. It seems we couldn't have government support, that would be a dole. So the engineers were supporting their own unemployed members and the architects were doing the same with theirs. Paying them a living wage. So that's where B. Jones for the engineers and Ackerman of the architects proposed that we start using these unemployed engineers and architects to start putting some of this stuff together. And so we organized them into teams to go into the engineering society's library, the New York Public Library, and after specific information, primarily various kinds of mineral resources, and energy resources, coal, oil, iron, various metals, and then plotting these up into graphs.

Doel:
Of course you'd had an interest in that from the time you'd taken Bastin's course at Chicago.
Hubbert:
Yes. And then I got a man by the name of [unclear] who was a professional in industrial engineering at Columbia, and talked with him at the Faculty Club, got him interested. He provided some of the drafting facilities and space at Columbia University for some of these men to do their drafting work. Well, this went along, and it broke into the press, oh, about 1933. Somebody saw this work going on, some reporter. "What's this?" "Well, it's an energy survey." "Energy survey, what's that?" Then they saw these big charts and so on and they got all excited, and this thing broke out all over the newspapers. Then there was a terrific hue and cry developing from people who wanted to help, what could they do? Well, there was no organization and no way of utilizing their interest or their desire to help. Again, one of the fundamental things, before they could do anything, maybe was education. So then -- well, Scott used the word Technocracy, that's a word he coined himself, by way of contrast with bureaucracy or plutocracy or democracy and so on, because the social structure that he was visualizing was none of the conventional things. Instead of that it was a social structure whose fundamentals were the energy and mineral resources, and whose accounting system was based on physical relations, thermodynamics and so on, rather than a monetary system, hence the contrast that his was not a plutocracy or any other conventional -- there's no social system in existence that was based on the principles that he was talking about. He coined this term, Technocracy, as describing what he had in mind, as contrasted with the conventional divisions, social divisions. And well, in order to have some kind of an organizational structure, we then had a lawyer who was a friend, at one of the big law firms in New York state, draw up the papers of incorporation and get it through a judge who had to approve it as incorporated here in New York called Technocracy Incorporated. That was a structure in which we could rent an office, and have a minimum sized staff, mostly volunteers, and could also begin to do some internal work by way of organizational structure.
Doel:
And this all occurred right after the publicity in the early 1930s?
Hubbert:
That's right. Finally, after about four years, there was a turnaround in the press, where they began to be very critical. Then we got all kinds of hell from the press, whereas before they almost had [unclear]. And in the meantime, why, we got out various publications, regrettably nothing of great importance. What I wanted to do was to get on to the technical writing, but through the emergency of the situation, the demand of the public to have something to do, we had to try to get some kind of an organization operating. I drew up a kind of a small study course of the basics of what we were talking about, for use in these small groups that were assembling around. That was published in a small booklet without authorship. It was called "Technocracy Study Course." They also put out a little magazine which was more, I'm sorry to say, political than technical. But it did have some fairly good technical papers. All this ran on through the thirties. By the end of the thirties, I'd come to the conclusion that the thing wasn't going to accomplish anything I was interested in. The technical part of it simply wasn't going anywhere.


Here's what Marion King Hubbert had to say to the Board of Economic Warfare, in these Letters and Hearing regarding Hubbert's involvement with Technocracy:

In the winter of 1931, I came to New York as a member of
the staff of Columbia University and quite by accident heard
of Howard Scott and some of the things he was talking mind
you, this was when there was still going to be two chickens
in every pot and prosperity was just around the corner. I was
introduced to the gentleman and we had dinner together, and we
covered quite an extensive range of subject matter. He was a
total stranger to me. I had never beard of him before and
what he told me was largely the work of this old Technical
Alliance and its implication. I was impressed with it as
the most important piece of scientific thinking I had ever
heard of and that impression still stands.

At my instigation, Mr. Scott rounded up some of these old
group members again, and we formed a small informal group that
started to review the old work, quite informally, no formal
organization. That went along quietly until it got out in the
newspapers through the Columbia University publicity agent
who wanted some publicity for the University; so, that, in
turn, spread around the press for a while and before very long,
it looked like a forest fire. The reason it looked like a
forest fire was because, fundamentally, we stated that technological
employment was real and that the number of persons who would >
be employed ten years from now would be less than the present
on the same hours of labor which at that time was the rankest
kind of heresy. In fact, it was such bad heresy that steps were
soon taken to oppose it, but, in the meantime, seven or eight
publishing houses rushed out with books on Technocracy. Those
houses included a fair percentage of the publishing houses
of New York City and some elsewhere, the books being written
by their own appointed men who did not know beans, but the most
of what people read about Technocracy was contained in those books.
At that stage, at the same time, we had a deluge of people
who wanted to work or be of assistance or contribute money, so
to protect ourselves legally, to prevent piracy of the type that
was going on, we set up a membership organization so we could
utilize these people. We incorporated as a membership corporation
under the laws of the State of New York. That was about 1933.
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 14 2011 00:29 GMT
#642
Asking us to read your stuff again just because you don't like our conclusions makes technocracy sound even sillier than it previously did. This thread is truly lol.
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-14 00:35:00
September 14 2011 00:32 GMT
#643
On September 14 2011 08:24 tech information wrote:
now stop disparaging Technocracy's good name


You're doing a better job of that than anyone else in this thread. Getting off Howard Scott's dick would help you. But then, you're probably deliberately doing that to troll us, aren't you?

On September 14 2011 09:29 lorkac wrote:
Asking us to read your stuff again just because you don't like our conclusions makes technocracy sound even sillier than it previously did. This thread is truly lol.


It was fine before tech information and people talking about God and Superman started trolling.
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
September 14 2011 00:33 GMT
#644
On September 14 2011 09:02 tech information wrote:
Anything not talked about by Howard Scott is not Technocracy but something else. The word was coopted and meaning changed by the Hearst Corporation and the Vatican to disparage Technocracy. Your just falling in their trap.

When does the illuminati come into play?
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 00:34 GMT
#645
ok I quite frankly I dont care if you like it or not. Technocracy isnt meant to be desirable, but a survival mecanism. i just don't want people to confuse the word with unrelated things ok?
ikl2
Profile Joined September 2010
United States145 Posts
September 14 2011 00:35 GMT
#646
On September 14 2011 09:34 tech information wrote:
ok I quite frankly I dont care if you like it or not. Technocracy isnt meant to be desirable, but a survival mecanism. i just don't want people to confuse the word with unrelated things ok?


Do you call your heart, lungs, and eyes 'organs'?
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 00:39 GMT
#647
you will understand if you investigate Technocracy in depth... getting rid of the so-called Illuminis will not get rid of the problem tho... its the 7000 year old political Price System of ancient Babylon which needs to be gotten rid of
Zeke50100
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States2220 Posts
September 14 2011 00:41 GMT
#648
"You don't get to use this word in the way you want to even if the 'true' definition is stupid because I'm disregarding the evolution of language. I like to argue against theory purely on semantics."

Ok.
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 00:42 GMT
#649
Conspiracy theory and controlling people with money
Assorted groups attempt to explain the mechanics of money and culture and
relate that to hidden groups and plots that relate to a variety of
conspiracy theory.
From the time periods discussed above and also
presently, people have been rewarded in money for
what could be viewed as bad behavior such as bribery,
extortion, rackets, etc.
This has been the case from remote antiquity onwards.
Raids and then wars were engaged in to capture
women, horses, and slaves... or oil and trade routes or
religious shrines or land etc. - The fall back position in
a Price System is war.
Money and profit have greased the wheel.
Believers in the occult offer mysterious explanations for
what is usually only simple money reward and punishment and belief systemopinion related events. The believers in conspiracy theory connect secret or
hidden groups with odd agendas such as taking over or controlling the world
using clandestine operations.
There are however no Illuminis entities that organized society to some
fantasy belief system purpose.
It is the nature of a political Price System to act in certain negative ways, as
a Price Systems main endeavor is to make money above all else, but many
people look for more obscure reasons for problems in contemporary society.
I am the Price System !
Nonetheless... today there are multiple groups of various religion and belief
systems... many of which do not particularly like each other, but tolerate
each other, in their quest to make money and promote various opinions.
These groups make claim to some version or other of ethics or morality,
religion or belief system bigotry.
Money, History, and Energy Accounting
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 00:45 GMT
#650
no, you dont get to use that word because theres a better word for what you are talking about, it its called "aristocracy", a well known political philosophy concept known since Plato's time. Confusing Technocracy with aristocracy either shows you are dishonest or ignorant. Got it??
ikl2
Profile Joined September 2010
United States145 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-14 00:47:40
September 14 2011 00:46 GMT
#651
But modern aristocracy has very little to do with philosopher kings! We need a new word.

Also, modern democracy isn't much like the original meaning of democracy. We should really stop co-opting words, guys.
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 00:47 GMT
#652
expertocracy then
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 00:47 GMT
#653
rule by experts
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 00:48 GMT
#654
and let me assure you nothing much has changed in that department
ikl2
Profile Joined September 2010
United States145 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-14 00:49:40
September 14 2011 00:48 GMT
#655
Let me assure you that you're completely wrong, but okay.

Edit: Voters in Athenian democracy are restricted to land-holding males, and major positions are chosen by lot. Ie. Only faintly resembles modern democracy.
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 00:48 GMT
#656
physical science, technological advancements and extraneous energy use is another matter though
acgFork
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada397 Posts
September 14 2011 00:48 GMT
#657
This would work so well, it's just that there are too many speds in the world that would be against it.
acgFork 208
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 00:49 GMT
#658
oh yea then why do we admire the ancient greeks philosophical or social concepts but not their scientific concepts?
ikl2
Profile Joined September 2010
United States145 Posts
September 14 2011 00:50 GMT
#659
On September 14 2011 09:49 tech information wrote:
oh yea then why do we admire the ancient greeks philosophical or social concepts but not their scientific concepts?


If that's a reply to me, then I have absolutely no idea what you're getting at.
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 00:54 GMT
#660
Howard Scott said: "all philosophic approaches to social phenomena, from Plato to-and including-Marx, must functionally be avoided as intellectual expressions of dementia praecox"
acgFork
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada397 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-14 01:07:15
September 14 2011 00:57 GMT
#661
I found a neat youtube channel on Technocracy, pretty neat:
http://www.youtube.com/user/TechnocracyInc2

EDIT: This is really interesting too
acgFork 208
DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5079 Posts
September 14 2011 00:59 GMT
#662
Even though you called it "neat" 2x in one sentence...

I don't know if I believe you.
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 01:00 GMT
#663
On September 14 2011 09:57 acgFork wrote:
I found a neat youtube channel on Technocracy, pretty neat:
http://www.youtube.com/user/TechnocracyInc2

Yea it's awesome. More videos here: http://www.youtube.com/user/TechnocracyNow#g/p
Join us on Technocracy Revolution on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/groups/2205039391/
acgFork
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada397 Posts
September 14 2011 01:04 GMT
#664
On September 14 2011 10:00 tech information wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 14 2011 09:57 acgFork wrote:
I found a neat youtube channel on Technocracy, pretty neat:
http://www.youtube.com/user/TechnocracyInc2

Yea it's awesome. More videos here: http://www.youtube.com/user/TechnocracyNow#g/p
Join us on Technocracy Revolution on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/groups/2205039391/


Dude, why aren't there more views on these? They all have like 300 and barely any subs?

I'm surprised because this seems like the best possible government..
acgFork 208
scribe123456
Profile Joined April 2011
United States43 Posts
September 14 2011 01:08 GMT
#665
I am a Socratic fool. Generally I feel knowledge begins when a man admits to knowing nothing. Technocracy sounds like the opposite of everything I believe in. A small gov Democratic Republic is by far the best we can ever hope for. At least this way we can feel the mistakes of our own foolishness, and not someone else's wisdom

The beginnings of Technocracy. "...It was made up of professional writers and newspaper people, and architects"
lmao, enough said.


Before Socrates became a philosopher, he believed he was a fool. All his friends told him he was a fool, the men he did business with called him a fool, and his wife told him what a fool he was every day, so he took it for granted that since they all agreed, they must be right.

But he thought to himself, maybe even a fool can learn a little wisdom if he listens to what wise men have to say. So he sought out the reputed wisest men in Athens to teach him. They were generally happy to oblige such a humble student, but as he listened to them expound their philosophies he realized they were all fools as well, only they thought they were wise.

And so he finally realized that he was the wisest man in Athens, since all men were fools but most believed themselves wise, while he at least knew that he was a fool.

Realizing that you are a fool is therefore the first step toward attaining true wisdom.
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 01:15 GMT
#666
On September 14 2011 10:04 acgFork wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 14 2011 10:00 tech information wrote:
On September 14 2011 09:57 acgFork wrote:
I found a neat youtube channel on Technocracy, pretty neat:
http://www.youtube.com/user/TechnocracyInc2

Yea it's awesome. More videos here: http://www.youtube.com/user/TechnocracyNow#g/p
Join us on Technocracy Revolution on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/groups/2205039391/


Dude, why aren't there more views on these? They all have like 300 and barely any subs?

I'm surprised because this seems like the best possible government..


Yea... nothing like it anywhere else... check out these magazines too you have never seen anything so cool in your life: http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=creator:"Technocracy Inc."&sort=-publicdate
EnderSword
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada669 Posts
September 14 2011 01:24 GMT
#667
Problems with a Technocracy:

1) Who and how do you determine which experts are most senior or qualified?

Dissenting opinions which may turn out to be correct can be quashed, and Elder status quo members of a field will dominate innovators. Science itself will become 'democratic' within those sub-groups.

2) Groups fight for power and funding.

The HealthCare group and Engineering groups will both want more and more funding, so they'll be incented to not be efficient and instead make their own cause seem more in need. Who determines this?

3) Who becomes the 'expert' for social issues?

Perfectly intelligent people can disagree on moral and ethic issues. Who do you appoint to decide on abortion, or animal rights or other issues without a clear cut answer.

4) Things are interdisciplinary

When is anything just a 'Education' issue? It's always going to have a financial, Legal, social, education, public health etc... component. How do those groups decide who and how they decide on things?

It's a cute adorable little idea....but it's actually pretty much what is Currently supposed to be happening.

The idea is we elect educated people, and they control departments filled with experts who determine how to do things. They elect a President, and then he may decide when/if to conduct a war, but generals determine how. Or they determine to do some healthcare thing, but then healthcare experts decide on how.

But it's a bad system currently, and would be even worse without the poltical executive heads of it.

Bronze/Silver/Gold level Guides - www.youtube.com/user/EnderSword
redFF
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States3910 Posts
September 14 2011 01:35 GMT
#668
On August 12 2011 16:55 Netsky wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 16:51 Emporio wrote:
What is this doing in the SC2 General forum lol

Is this asking if the leaders of the world should be decided by their skill in SC2? Sounds like an awesome manga


Interesting idea - not really comfortable with Blizzard having complete control of the parameters though. If they or their supporters don't like World President Nestea out comes the nerf stick for Zerg.

If blizzard was in control it would be based on ladder rank and we would have bitbybit and ostojiy ruling the world.
Geosensation
Profile Joined March 2011
United States256 Posts
September 14 2011 01:52 GMT
#669
no it couldn't
"My life for Aiur!"
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
September 14 2011 01:53 GMT
#670
On September 14 2011 09:39 tech information wrote:
you will understand if you investigate Technocracy in depth... getting rid of the so-called Illuminis will not get rid of the problem tho... its the 7000 year old political Price System of ancient Babylon which needs to be gotten rid of

You cannot be serious. What the fuck, man, I was obviously taking the piss.

What the fuck.
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
September 14 2011 01:56 GMT
#671
What the fuck.

WHAT THE FUCK.
mrafaeldie12
Profile Joined July 2011
Brazil537 Posts
September 14 2011 02:02 GMT
#672
Democracy works.It's just slow.
"..it all comes thumbling down thumbling down thumblin down"
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 02:04 GMT
#673
Technocracy's conclusions are not the subject for debate or argument, but rather verification or invalidation.
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 02:20 GMT
#674
Technocracy - An Idea For Now - Stephen L. Doll

These observations, as may be expected, were bitter gall to industrialists who spoke in terms of dividends and profit margins. They had come to hear how they could get out of the Depression with their corporate skins intact and resume business as usual. Here was this man talking about energy conversion and the time rate of doing work. He even went so far as to say that all such special interest groups as liberals, debt merchants, and communists would wind up sharing "the mud of the last ditch wherein they now struggle so valiantly."

The industrialists clicked their tongues, shook their heads, and proceeded to write Technocracy off as just another will-O'-the-wisp, like the Townsend plan. Then they went off to the government, hats in hand. They even tried to hire Scott at a princely wage, but Scott refused to be bound by what he called their "platinum handcuffs."

Technocracy's researchers were summarily dismissed from Columbia University. Scott later maintained that he had in his possession a telegram directing all employees of the Hearst Corporation never to mention Technocracy again if they wanted to keep their jobs.

Not everyone was cowed by the bluster of the media megaliths, however. The VANCOUVER SUN heralded Technocracy's program for social reconstruction as "North America's Great Chance". The Decatur, Illinois, HERALD-REVIEW headlined it as the "CURE FOR ECONOMIC ILLS". Encyclopedia Americana called it the "only program of social and economic reconstruction which is in technical accord with the age in which we live." H.G. Wells spoke of it as a sound method of placing economics on a purely physical basis.

[image loading]


Scott reported in a recorded talk to members in Detroit in 1951: “William Randolph Hearst… one of the worst of all Americans… I have the original telegram, signed in his handwriting, which was sent out to every Hearst official that the name “Technocracy” was not to be used under any condition whatsoever. They were subject to dismissal and severance from the Hearst organization if they did so.”

WHO’S WHO OF TECHNOCRACY - SCOTT?, VEBLEN?, HUBBERT?
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 14 2011 02:24 GMT
#675
Lol

I was attempting to figure out what to say, but I'm dumbfounded

Im literally lost for words

I hope to go I'm right and tech is just trolling because otherwise this might actually be really sad
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 02:31 GMT
#676
Defining Words

About all we have done so far in this discussion is to give you a definition, and to explain exactly what was meant by it. Why this insistence on exact meaning? We promised to tell you about science in general, and then proceed to split hairs about something so small as would surely make little difference in the composite whole. This brings us to another point. A scientist always knows exactly what he is talking about. That sounds like a boast, but it is really quite the opposite. It is just that a scientist pays attention to the exact definition of terms; he should never use a term beyond it's definition, and he should never use an undefined term at all. Many, quarrelling with me on that last, will say one must somewhere use undefined terms. But we have a way out of that difficulty which will be indicated in a moment. Now, contrast a rigidly defined term with the expressions used in fields other than science---in finance, in politics, law, etc.

Suppose you were reading an article on economics and came upon the word `price' as you undoubtedly would do many times a page. Now everybody is credited with knowing the meaning of `price,' but you, being a particularly inquiring individual, insist on exact definition. You would discover that almost every economist, when he bothers to elucidate his terms at all, attaches to the word `price' a different meaning. Some define it as the measure of the ratio of the scarcity of money to the scarcity of any commodity. Others make no mention of scarcity whatever. Still others introduce psychological and social factors. Invariably you will find that a definition when given is followed by great amounts of explanatory and qualifying material. This means the definition represents what is in the author's mind, not what is in the minds of all users of the word. For example: The Encyclopedia Britannica starts off by regretting there is no exact meaning for the word, and presently works into the definition, `Price is value expressed in terms of money.' Then comes the qualifying material which says, in effect, this does not mean values are determined independently of or prior to the determination of their prices, or that values of goods and money are determined separately. Some story of an exchange is necessary, after which the values thus determined appear in the guise of money prices.

We are also told that the abstract notion of exchange value is a generalization of the simple idea of price. One who finds this less clear than he hoped would naturally try to discover what is meant by value, since price is expressed in terms of it. He would discover there are three conceptions of value: exchange value, subjective value, and imputed price. He would read the opinion that `value is the greatest philosophical achievement of the 19th century' but nowhere would he find a statement of what it is. He would be gratified to learn there exists, however, if not an exact meaning, at least a theory of values, a theory that requires consideration of the following points: What is the nature of value? What are the fundamental values, and how are they to be classified? How may we determine the relative values of things, and what is the ultimate standard of value? Are values subjective or objective? What is the relation of values to things or of value to existence and reality?

Let us go no further into the matter of price, for it does not appear necessary to labor the point that a term whose meaning has not been specified by general agreement among men is unsuited for the rigorous transmission of intelligence from man to man. In this connection, however, we shall take up another little problem. A hunter is standing near a large tree, and a squirrel is hanging onto the opposite side of the tree. The hunter now moves in a circle completely around the tree until he regains his starting position, but at the same time the squirrel also moves around the tree in the same direction and in such a manner as it always faces the man, and as the tree is always between it and him. Now, the problem is this: Does the hunter go around the squirrel? The correct answer is not `yes,' and it is not `no.' The correct reply requires an exact definition of the verb, `go around.' If we define `go around' as meaning that the hunter is first south, then west, then north, then east, and finally south of the squirrel, he very obviously does go around it. But if we agree that `go around' shall mean first opposite the squirrel's belly, then it's right side, then it's back, then it's left side, the answer is just as definitely `no.' Here, again, we see the necessity for exact definition. It is inimical to the integrity of our thinking to use words loosely. Lack of careful definition sires more illegitimate offspring, widely varying sports that take the form of controversies, debates, arguments, than a whole countryside of rabbit farms. Many problems outside science would vanish into thin air if definition were exact.

Before we leave the subject, let us ask if anyone can define a term used in connection with measuring the strip of steel--the word `centimeter.' How long is a centimeter? It is useless to say it is the 100th part of a meter; that, in effect, is saying it is twice one-half centimeter, One merely asks: `How long is a meter? Is there possible an exact definition of length not in terms of other units of length?' Yes. In the International Bureau of Standards near Paris is a certain bar of metal--one only. It is an alloy of, I think, Platinum and Iridium. On this bar are two marks, and a centimeter is defined as one 100th the distance between these two marks when the bar is at 0 degrees Centigrade. This is an example of the prosaic, matter-of-course way scientists have of going about things. If they cannot define a term in terms of other terms, they define it in terms of an object or system of objects in the external world. That is how we avoid using undefined terms. We trust the distinction between a definition and a fact is clear. You will have many of both in your studies. A definition is an agreement, wholly arbitrary in character, among men; while a fact is an agreement among investigations carried out by men. It is a definition that a centimeter is one 100th the distance between certain marks on a certain bar at a certain temperature. It is a fact that a particular strip of steel is ten centimeters long. - Technocracy Study Course
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
September 14 2011 02:45 GMT
#677
On September 14 2011 11:24 lorkac wrote:
Lol

I was attempting to figure out what to say, but I'm dumbfounded

Im literally lost for words

I hope to go I'm right and tech is just trolling because otherwise this might actually be really sad


This is a true believer, that hiring supposed experts in all sorts of fields could run a country or geographical landmass better.

And that Energy Certificates aren't Money and are better than Money for all sorts of reasons (Hand Wave this and that). Ughhh.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 02:51 GMT
#678
Yup. Why don't you ask Marion King Hubbert what he thinks.

"Two Intellectual Systems: Matter-energy and the Monetary Culture"

(summary, by M. King Hubbert)

During a 4-hour interview with Stephen B Andrews, SbAndrews at worldnet.att.net, on March 8, 1988, Dr. Hubbert handed over a copy of the following, which was the subject of a seminar he taught, or participated in, at MIT Energy Laboratory on Sept 30, 1981.
"The world's present industrial civilization is handicapped by the coexistence of two universal, overlapping, and incompatible intellectual systems: the accumulated knowledge of the last four centuries of the properties and interrelationships of matter and energy; and the associated monetary culture which has evloved from folkways of prehistoric origin.

"The first of these two systems has been responsible for the spectacular rise, principally during the last two centuries, of the present industrial system and is essential for its continuance. The second, an inheritance from the prescientific past, operates by rules of its own having little in common with those of the matter-energy system. Nevertheless, the monetary system, by means of a loose coupling, exercises a general control over the matter-energy system upon which it is super[im]posed.

"Despite their inherent incompatibilities, these two systems during the last two centuries have had one fundamental characteristic in common, namely, exponential growth, which has made a reasonably stable coexistence possible. But, for various reasons, it is impossible for the matter-energy system to sustain exponential growth for more than a few tens of doublings, and this phase is by now almost over. The monetary system has no such constraints, and, according to one of its most fundamental rules, it must continue to grow by compound interest. This disparity between a monetary system which continues to grow exponentially and a physical system which is unable to do so leads to an increase with time in the ratio of money to the output of the physical system. This manifests itself as price inflation. A monetary alternative corresponding to a zero physical growth rate would be a zero interest rate. The result in either case would be large-scale financial instability."

"With such relationships in mind, a review will be made of the evolution of the world's matter-energy system culminating in the present industrial society. Questions will then be considered regarding the future:

What are the constraints and possibilities imposed by the matter-energy system? human society sustained at near optimum conditions?
Will it be possible to so reform the monetary system that it can serve as a control system to achieve these results?
If not, can an accounting and control system of a non-monetary nature be devised that would be approptirate for the management of an advanced industrial system?
"It appears that the stage is now set for a critical examination of this problem, and that out of such inquries, if a catastrophic solution can be avoided, there can hardly fail to emerge what the historian of science, Thomas S. Kuhn, has called a major scientific and intellectual revolution."

The following is from an article entitled "King Hubbert: Science's Don Quixote," in the February 1983 issue of Geophysics magazine, by Robert Dean Clark, assistant editor:

"Hubbert has had serious health problems for several years. Both his eyesight and hearing now give him problems. But neither the ailments nor the recent adulation have eroded his zest for intellectual combat. In recent years, he has assaulted a target--which he labels the culture of money--that is gigantic even by Hubbert standards. His thesis is that society is seriously handicapped because its two most important intellectual underpinnings, the science of matter-energy and the historic system of finance, are incompatible. A reasonable co-existance is possible when both are growing at approximately the same rate. That, Hubbert says, has been happening since the start of the industrial revolution but it is soon going to end because the amount of [that the?] matter-energy system can grow is limited while money's growth is not.

"'I was in New York in the 30s. I had a box seat at the depression,' Hubbert says. 'I can assure you it was a very educational experience. We shut the country down because of monetary reasons. We had manpower and abundant raw materials. Yet we shut the country down. We're doing the same kind of thing now but with a different material outlook. We are not in the position we were in 1929-30 with regard to the future. Then the physical system was ready to roll. This time it's not. We are in a crisis in the evolution of human socienty. It's unique to both human and geologic history. It has never happened before and it can't possibly happen again. You can only use oil once. You can only use metals once. Soon all the oil is going to be burned and all the metals mined and scattered.'

"That is obviously a scenario of catastrophe, a possibility Hubbert concedes. But it is not one he forecasts. The man known to many as a pessimist is, in this case, quite hopeful. In fact, he could be the ultimate utopian. We have, he says, the necessary technology. All we have to do is completely overhaul our culture and find an alternative to money.

"'We are not starting from zero,' he emphasizes. 'We have an enormous amount of existing technical knowledge. It's just a matter of putting it all together. We still have great flexibility but our maneuverability will diminish with time.'

"A non-catastrophic solution is impossible, Hubbert feels, unless society is made stable. This means abandoning two axioms of our culture...the work ethic and the idea that growth is the normal state of life...."

During his interview with Dr. Hubbert, Mr. Andrews asked him for his updated perspective, five years later, about his comments as quoted in the article above. He said:

"our window of opportunity is slowly closing...at the same time, it probably requires a spiral of adversity. In other words, things have to get worse before they can get better. The most important thing is to get a clear picture of the situation we're in, and the outlook for the future--exhaustion of oil and gas, that kind of thing...and an appraisal of where we are and what the time scale is. And the time scale is not centuries, it's decades."
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-14 02:58:33
September 14 2011 02:53 GMT
#679
Yes. Read this article:

It Really Doesn't Grow On Trees
Stephen L. Doll
1997
Published in:
 The Northwest Technocrat, 1st quarter 1997, No. 346
The stripping of rainforests for monetary profit points up a vital truth -- we are dead set on a collision course between human ambition and the hard, cold realities of physical science.


While I appreciate that you liked my post, I strongly disagree with Doll's article. As the 'physical economy' becomes more apparently limited, the 'monetary economy' will raise prices as necessary. That's what's so perfect about a free market - when trees and natural resources start to run out, they become more rare, and prices will rise.

Right now, believe it or not, oil is extremely abundant. While current proven, tapped reserves will last only 200 more years, there are numerous untapped reserves as well as unfound reserves. 10 years ago, Saudi Arabia was considered the most oil rich country in the world, but with the recent oil discovery in the gulf (I believe by Exxon), the US is now considered the most oil rich country in the world, with over triple the reserves of Saudi Arabia. There is also the untapped Alaskan reserves, as well as the simple truth that oil is everywhere as long as you drill deep enough. As technology improves and as prices rise and need grows, these resources will be tapped. It's a matter of are we willing to pay to drill for it that's an issue, not the scarcity of oil.

There's also Russia's approach to oil when the world refused to sell them oil for a better part of a century in a land considered barren of oil, but that's a little beyond this thread.

It's not like the world will end. What will happen, is prices of oil will go up, companies will invest more into research to lower the price to drill for deeper oil and found more reserves, and then prices will go down. There is so much oil, it is literally unlimited (and that's not even talking about oil shale and other sources of oil). What will happen, is that the price of obtaining such oil will be so high that people will go for alternatives, and there was life before the combustion engine, so worst case scenario people will rather pay money for a horse - and life will still be a million times better with the having use of oil to fund, say, medicinal advancement.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
ikl2
Profile Joined September 2010
United States145 Posts
September 14 2011 02:56 GMT
#680
Don't worry, only scientists define their terms. I promise.
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 02:56 GMT
#681
Well the economy needs access to cheap fossil fuels in order to continue to grow
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
September 14 2011 03:03 GMT
#682
^ Why do you say that? Right now scarcity has nothing to do with the price of oil, and even factors like drilling and access aren't. The biggest blocks to price right now are government, and when prices start to get too high, believe me, the government will remove those blocks (or they will be voted out with a new government that will - which is something that wouldn't happen under a technocracy/autocracy).

When the price of gas grows, people will go to alternatives (anything from hydrogen power to horseback). Gas is always crucial to the economy, but the supply of oil itself isn't the issue, it's the supply that's the issue (understand? Meaning things oil reserves not being allowed to be drilled in to, oil reserves not being found, political instability, etc).

I mean obviously the economy needs access to fossil fuels, but fossil fuels are very abundant. It's policy that limits access to cheap fuel, not the natural supply of it. But the economy will grow regardless of fossil fuel, and actually, it's a sign of an extremely strong and robust economy when gas prices rise (like they did under the Bush administration in mid-2000s and the 1980's under Reagan). The relationship between fossil fuels and the economy is extremely complex, it's not as simple as "cheap oil = growing economy"
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 03:08 GMT
#683
"Despite their inherent incompatibilities, these two systems during the last two centuries have had one fundamental characteristic in common, namely, exponential growth, which has made a reasonably stable coexistence possible. But, for various reasons, it is impossible for the matter-energy system to sustain exponential growth for more than a few tens of doublings, and this phase is by now almost over. The monetary system has no such constraints, and, according to one of its most fundamental rules, it must continue to grow by compound interest. This disparity between a monetary system which continues to grow exponentially and a physical system which is unable to do so leads to an increase with time in the ratio of money to the output of the physical system. This manifests itself as price inflation. A monetary alternative corresponding to a zero physical growth rate would be a zero interest rate. The result in either case would be large-scale financial instability."
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 14 2011 03:18 GMT
#684
Sigh... I give up on this thread. There's only so much that I can stand of reading an argument that, in essence, boils down to

[image loading]

Before I finally have to give up and accept that it's hopeless. It was funny before, but now it's just sad. Too sad. I hope you're trolling. If not, you need help.
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 03:23 GMT
#685
Do you think Marion King Hubbert was a troll?
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-14 03:24:12
September 14 2011 03:23 GMT
#686
Do you think resource exhaustion and corresponding population depletion are funny subjects?
ikl2
Profile Joined September 2010
United States145 Posts
September 14 2011 03:25 GMT
#687
I think the problem is more why the eventual depletion of resources necessarily entails a bonkers political system, but I'm inclined to think my time is being wasted.
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 03:26 GMT
#688
That would be to avoid the corresponding population depletion and social fascism it would entail.
ikl2
Profile Joined September 2010
United States145 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-14 03:28:36
September 14 2011 03:27 GMT
#689
...which could also be accomplished without putting a ridiculously specific set of people in charge for no especially compelling reason other than 'we've got this, guys'. Do you not see that?

Edit: We can grant every single premise about resources and physical science, and not get the conclusion you're looking for: put the physicists, chemists, and biologists in charge.
kazie
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
258 Posts
September 14 2011 03:29 GMT
#690
i dont think anyone would agree on anything and nothing would get done :|
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 03:30 GMT
#691
Again do you think Marion King Hubbert was trolling the U.S. government when he stated: We
have carried out research in that field, and that, I think, is second to nobody's. We have anticipated a great deal of work by the United States Government by four or five years and obtained the same results.
ikl2
Profile Joined September 2010
United States145 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-14 03:32:07
September 14 2011 03:31 GMT
#692
And I can grant that 100% and have it have absolutely no logical effect on why he should be the king of the world. That's why this is so puzzling.

Your argument is equivalent to:

1) The sky is blue.
2) Cows moo.

Thus, I should be President of the United States. There is absolutely no logical relationship.
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 03:32 GMT
#693
no the same people that are in charge now would be in charge... the technologists who operate our complex technological system that keeps us all alive
ikl2
Profile Joined September 2010
United States145 Posts
September 14 2011 03:32 GMT
#694
Yeah definitely wasting my time. Have a good night.
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 03:35 GMT
#695
yea have fun trying to live without technology
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 03:37 GMT
#696
and extraneous energy

User was banned for this post.
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
September 14 2011 03:42 GMT
#697
On September 14 2011 12:08 tech information wrote:
"Despite their inherent incompatibilities, these two systems during the last two centuries have had one fundamental characteristic in common, namely, exponential growth, which has made a reasonably stable coexistence possible. But, for various reasons, it is impossible for the matter-energy system to sustain exponential growth for more than a few tens of doublings, and this phase is by now almost over. The monetary system has no such constraints, and, according to one of its most fundamental rules, it must continue to grow by compound interest. This disparity between a monetary system which continues to grow exponentially and a physical system which is unable to do so leads to an increase with time in the ratio of money to the output of the physical system. This manifests itself as price inflation. A monetary alternative corresponding to a zero physical growth rate would be a zero interest rate. The result in either case would be large-scale financial instability."


The monetary system is not a system that is out of control, it is a system that is completely controlled by the availability of goods, and the wish for people to have such goods. It doesn't matter how much people want things - and bear in mind that in economics, there is no such thing as need (or rather, there is no difference from want and need), if supply is low, prices will go up, and eventually people will not buy it anymore.

The monetary system still grows exponentially, and that's because supply has been growing. When supply drops, the price will rise, and the resource will sell slower and slower and the price will eventually get so high that alternatives (anything from horseback to solar and hydrogen) will be more highly demanded as well as more profitable ventures for businesses to go into.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
September 14 2011 03:49 GMT
#698
On September 14 2011 12:42 Belial88 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 14 2011 12:08 tech information wrote:
"Despite their inherent incompatibilities, these two systems during the last two centuries have had one fundamental characteristic in common, namely, exponential growth, which has made a reasonably stable coexistence possible. But, for various reasons, it is impossible for the matter-energy system to sustain exponential growth for more than a few tens of doublings, and this phase is by now almost over. The monetary system has no such constraints, and, according to one of its most fundamental rules, it must continue to grow by compound interest. This disparity between a monetary system which continues to grow exponentially and a physical system which is unable to do so leads to an increase with time in the ratio of money to the output of the physical system. This manifests itself as price inflation. A monetary alternative corresponding to a zero physical growth rate would be a zero interest rate. The result in either case would be large-scale financial instability."


The monetary system is not a system that is out of control, it is a system that is completely controlled by the availability of goods, and the wish for people to have such goods. It doesn't matter how much people want things - and bear in mind that in economics, there is no such thing as need (or rather, there is no difference from want and need), if supply is low, prices will go up, and eventually people will not buy it anymore.

The monetary system still grows exponentially, and that's because supply has been growing. When supply drops, the price will rise, and the resource will sell slower and slower and the price will eventually get so high that alternatives (anything from horseback to solar and hydrogen) will be more highly demanded as well as more profitable ventures for businesses to go into.


Essentially what I wanted to say, but said better. That whole long blob of text came down to a fundamental misunderstanding about how money works (kinda straw-manning money & the market of goods/services), criticizing the straw man, and putting forth a very hard-to-explain new monetary policy that contains none of these. If this technocracy proponent refuses to understand how money interacts with supply and demand in the market, then I see no point in further debate.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
September 14 2011 03:57 GMT
#699
^ I spent 4 years of college to become an economics grad just so I could make that post. College was so worth it.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Rabiator
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany3948 Posts
September 14 2011 04:11 GMT
#700
A Technocracy would be WORSE than our sucky democracy for the simple reason that NONE of the listed professions cares about HUMANS (i.e. citizens). The belief that technology can solve all problems is a myth and it has put us on the road to global destruction by making us waste energy in an insane amount while creating more problems than it solves.

Problems created through technology:
- pollution
- loss of social networks (mobility enforces the loss of contacts in your neighborhood and the "technological social networks" are of a lesser quality)
- loss of social values (yay, free porn on the internet and new and more violent movies every season?)

Technology and globalism basically follow one motto: divide et impera and it divides the population from their family and friends to make the individual weaker when faced with a decision "from those in power" (not just politicians, but company owners as well).
If you cant say what you're meaning, you can never mean what you're saying.
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 04:20 GMT
#701
no the system needs to expand to validate existing debt
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 04:22 GMT
#702
there are no alternatives... you are living in a dream... because you cannot accept the fact that your little party's over
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 04:22 GMT
#703
in the study course Marion King Hubbert called economists apologists for businessmen
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 04:34 GMT
#704

"'I was in New York in the 30s. I had a box seat at the depression,' Hubbert says. 'I can assure you it was a very educational experience. We shut the country down because of monetary reasons. We had manpower and abundant raw materials. Yet we shut the country down. We're doing the same kind of thing now but with a different material outlook. We are not in the position we were in 1929-30 with regard to the future. Then the physical system was ready to roll. This time it's not. We are in a crisis in the evolution of human socienty. It's unique to both human and geologic history. It has never happened before and it can't possibly happen again. You can only use oil once. You can only use metals once. Soon all the oil is going to be burned and all the metals mined and scattered.'
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-14 05:05:16
September 14 2011 04:56 GMT
#705
On September 14 2011 11:24 lorkac wrote:
I hope to go I'm right and tech is just trolling because otherwise this might actually be really sad


I called this out a while ago. He's most likely an elaborate strawman account made to troll us, if not just flat out insane, considering that he created an account just to spam this thread full of crap.

On September 14 2011 13:11 Rabiator wrote:
A Technocracy would be WORSE than our sucky democracy for the simple reason that NONE of the listed professions cares about HUMANS (i.e. citizens).


Lolwut? Doctors don't care about people? Engineers don't care about people, that's why they constantly worry about safety and ergonomics right? All the social sciences, which revolve around people, don't care about them?

Highly educated people have been at the forefront of just about every social and civil rights movement. Assuming that experts don't care about humans is just your knee-jerk anti-intellectual attitudes showing. The idea that intellectuals are an "other"/"not one of us"/dangerous because they have "little empathy for the common folk" is as old as dirt, and has always been used by tyrants to crush dissent. There's a reason that autocratic regimes are quick to persecute the intellectual class; they're the vanguards of freedom.

On September 14 2011 13:11 Rabiator wrote:
The belief that technology can solve all problems is a myth and it has put us on the road to global destruction by making us waste energy in an insane amount while creating more problems than it solves.


Technology ≠ technocracy. Read the thread and/or do some research before sticking your foot in your mouth.
Flamingo777
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1190 Posts
September 14 2011 05:20 GMT
#706
Seems like this would work well for anything except substantive issues... which is probably more than 40% of either topics up for debate, or the emotion put into topics which should already have been put to the test by some sort of principles of preclusion.
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-14 07:04:19
September 14 2011 07:02 GMT
#707
Did that tech guy make a new multi account just to post 105 times in this thread in the last 24 hours? That's just the most bizarre thing in the world lol.

Irrelevant
+ Show Spoiler +

Lose your one-track mindset and use the whole site when you come back. Your affection for that one thread is simply too much.


It was a little weird, but that's a reason for a ban?
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Dr.Brawndo
Profile Joined September 2011
2 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-22 05:44:14
September 22 2011 02:33 GMT
#708
DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5079 Posts
September 22 2011 03:09 GMT
#709
By tech info you mean you right?
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
Naio
Profile Joined August 2010
27 Posts
September 22 2011 03:42 GMT
#710
I'm pretty sure an oligarchy of department heads from all the hard science divisions would be better than what you are describing. Dozens of members from each field? Constant Peer Reviews? You realize how long that would take to pass anything, to reach any decision?

TanGeng
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sanya12364 Posts
September 22 2011 04:34 GMT
#711
On September 22 2011 11:33 Dr.Brawndo wrote:
Haha, man some people really are stupid. Tech Info seemed to be the only one actually on subject (Technocracy), and instead of reading the information and maybe learning something important you try and mock the organization and call him a troll? Please... you guys are obviously the trolls. Not contributing to the debate in any way, insulting some of the greatest thinkers in history and not understanding a single thing about Technocracy, refusing to learn and remaining so pathetically ignorant as to not even be able to formulate a valid argument or inquiry on the subject, just throw names at it and call it silly. You do not know what you are trying to insult.. the most important organization in the world, the result of decades of research by the top scientists and engineers.... You children do not understand the difference between science and opinion obviously, and have a very deluded view of what's real, maybe you spent too much time playing video games and dont care about the real world.
Technocracy = scientific social design. You can't argue with science. Debate over.



"Perhaps, if we fail to stop and consider the matter, this may sound rather dogmatic. Actually, it isn't. The statements stand, and will continue to stand BECAUSE Technocracy IS NOT dogmatic. Technocrats do not have a doctrine codified from a set of opinions and myths, with a few inescapable facts rationalized to fit. Technocracy is wholly conditioned by the facts of this physical world in which, despite any philosophical aspirations we may cherish, we are forced to live; and as and when new facts are found bearing on our social problems, Technocracy will conform as the facts dictate. Physical facts are uncompromising, as we may learn if we try to disregard them."

Idiocracy reference???

"You can't argue with science. Debate over." except when science goes wrong, i.e. opposition to plate tectonics, opposition to theory of relativity, and opposition to heliocentric theory. Scientists have the biggest egos among the population, and they're most likely to exhibit hubris and excess confidence in their pet theories. BTW, one of the tenets of the scientific method is continuous skepticism, theorisation, and validation. Thus, the debate is never over.
Moderator我们是个踏实的赞助商模式俱乐部
lithiumdeuteride
Profile Joined June 2011
96 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-22 04:56:29
September 22 2011 04:56 GMT
#712
On September 22 2011 13:34 TanGeng wrote:"You can't argue with science. Debate over." except when science goes wrong, i.e. opposition to plate tectonics, opposition to theory of relativity, and opposition to heliocentric theory. Scientists have the biggest egos among the population, and they're most likely to exhibit hubris and excess confidence in their pet theories. BTW, one of the tenets of the scientific method is continuous skepticism, theorisation, and validation. Thus, the debate is never over.


What you're saying is true, but the cure to scientific errors is more science. Eventually, the wrong ideas will be overturned. Non-scientists unfortunately can't do much to help this process.

I'm all for a Technocracy, but I'm not sure how different it would be from current western civilization. Would scientists be put in charge of government spending? That would be a big step forward. Career politicians are a blight upon society.
Sweet bacteria of Liberia!
TanGeng
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sanya12364 Posts
September 22 2011 05:47 GMT
#713
On September 22 2011 13:56 lithiumdeuteride wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 22 2011 13:34 TanGeng wrote:"You can't argue with science. Debate over." except when science goes wrong, i.e. opposition to plate tectonics, opposition to theory of relativity, and opposition to heliocentric theory. Scientists have the biggest egos among the population, and they're most likely to exhibit hubris and excess confidence in their pet theories. BTW, one of the tenets of the scientific method is continuous skepticism, theorisation, and validation. Thus, the debate is never over.


What you're saying is true, but the cure to scientific errors is more science. Eventually, the wrong ideas will be overturned. Non-scientists unfortunately can't do much to help this process.

I'm all for a Technocracy, but I'm not sure how different it would be from current western civilization. Would scientists be put in charge of government spending? That would be a big step forward. Career politicians are a blight upon society.


There you go conflating the robust process with its flawed practitioners. If process science is to rules then it must necessarily extricate itself from its human component and the personal biases that come with each scientist. Yet, technocracy requires a human component.

Instead of focusing on the personalities of politicians, it's more instructive to focus on the incentives and institutions and look at the selection process for personalities of rulers. The main feature common to all politicians and rulers is political power, and as Lord Acton states, "All power corrupts." Does that axiom magically not apply if we give scientists power. Besides, who decides whom is deserving of the privilege to rule in a technocracy. It would seem that decision maker would hold the ultimate power in a technocratic government.

And if the selection process for the ruler-scientists is based on popular vote, then there is no substantive difference between democracy and technocracy. Nor would there be substantive difference between the politicians and technocrats.
Moderator我们是个踏实的赞助商模式俱乐部
pedduck
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Thailand468 Posts
September 22 2011 05:50 GMT
#714
Anything can be better than Democracy, it's depend on the people in the country and governing body.
If a country ruled by corrupted government, like Thailand, no system will work.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
September 22 2011 06:04 GMT
#715
On September 22 2011 14:47 TanGeng wrote:
Instead of focusing on the personalities of politicians, it's more instructive to focus on the incentives and institutions and look at the selection process for personalities of rulers. The main feature common to all politicians and rulers is political power, and as Lord Acton states, "All power corrupts." Does that axiom magically not apply if we give scientists power.


Research indicates that technocrats and professionals are actually less corruptible because the self-selection process is biased towards people who care most about their science than anything else, as I've pointed out earlier in this thread. Regardless, power corrupts politicians too, so this isn't exactly a point for democracy.

On September 22 2011 14:47 TanGeng wrote:
Besides, who decides whom is deserving of the privilege to rule in a technocracy. It would seem that decision maker would hold the ultimate power in a technocratic government.


There's no one ruler in a technocracy. A technocracy would effectively boil down to a representative or direct democracy, except that the voters are limited to experts on any given issue.

On September 22 2011 14:47 TanGeng wrote:
And if the selection process for the ruler-scientists is based on popular vote, then there is no substantive difference between democracy and technocracy. Nor would there be substantive difference between the politicians and technocrats.


It isn't. It's based on expert votes. That is, only physicists get to determine who represents them on matters of physics, and only environmental scientists get to determine who represents them on matters of environmental science.

If you look at how national academies for most first-world nations work, then you have an idea of how the process would function. Essentially, the national academy selection process would remain, but the members would have real policy-making power with regards to their areas of expertise.
jbee
Profile Joined June 2011
35 Posts
September 22 2011 06:13 GMT
#716
The mistake most people make is that they think the government leaders are altruistic. Nobody is, and therefore, whether informed or not, people will always act out of self interest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game theory
Relickey
Profile Joined September 2010
United States145 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-22 06:38:12
September 22 2011 06:37 GMT
#717
There's a Doctor Who Classic episode that includes a technocracy. In "Gensis of the Daleks" Doctor Who goes to Skaro to stop the development of the Daleks, alter their genetics to make them a more passive race, or find some inherent weakness that the Daleks have.

The Planet Skaro has been torn in an ongoing 100 year war between the Thalls and the Kaleds. The Kaleds have a Technocracy, in a way. All the scientists/engineers are an elite group that makes all the decisions for the rest of the populace, but there is a lead scientist, Davros, whom ultimately decides everything.

Near the end of the story when the Doctor is about to destroy everything the Kaleds have worked for(The Daleks) Davros goes to the Thall base and gives them the chemical compound to launch at the Kaled city to destroy its shield, so they can launch their super rocket and kill everyone inside.

Do I think that if we have a technocracy the Daleks will be made and super weapons will be created? No. Do I think that giving educated people the title of elite, or even if they're not given the title they will feel it being masters at their respective fields, and immense power could possibly lead to these sort of decisions? Most definitely.
Beaches and shores
Dr.Brawndo
Profile Joined September 2011
2 Posts
September 22 2011 06:55 GMT
#718
@TanGeng, Technocracy is not about giving scientists power. Technocracy uses energy accounting instead of money, every decision made by government will be a functional one, with only the facts being taken into consideration. Positions will be filled by those selected for their recognized ability and training, so that they can properly accomplish the jobs they were selected to do. Also everyone receives exactly the same purchasing power through their energy certificate.
NewbieOne
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Poland560 Posts
September 22 2011 20:35 GMT
#719
IMHO a technocracy could still allow for some form of cronieship or fascist-style dictatorship or, in simpler words, it could still be corrupted. We already have elements of technocracy in every democracy in the sense that plenty of public administration functions are performed by people with a background in the given field. EU clerks are referred to as technocrats. Look at construction law and building permits and that kind of thing. It tends to be similar in anything relating to medicine. Any public officials get specialised with more and more regulatory or enforcement bodies of various types. There's a lot of specialisation among lawyers in some countries too, e.g. in Poland, you can pretty much spend most of your professional life ruling on criminal appeals. The latter isn't always the greatest thing. Somebody less specialised can perhaps keep the big picture in mind more easily and focus on some underlying theory and e.g. good legal workshop as opposed to just spamming the same kind of cases at the rate of a dozen hearings per day on the same kind of thing.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
September 22 2011 22:10 GMT
#720
On September 22 2011 15:37 Relickey wrote:
Do I think that if we have a technocracy the Daleks will be made and super weapons will be created? No. Do I think that giving educated people the title of elite, or even if they're not given the title they will feel it being masters at their respective fields, and immense power could possibly lead to these sort of decisions? Most definitely.


So you're opposed to technocracy because you watched a Doctor Who episode and decided that you now understand human nature, politics, and 'educated people'?

Ignorance + arrogance like this is why democracy fails so hard.
sevencck
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada704 Posts
September 22 2011 23:12 GMT
#721
Lower tier value sets exist in any and all professions. Do you really believe that someone has an inclusive view by virtue of their professional credentials? Scientists and engineers are the way forward are they? Have you never heard of the numerous scientists denouncing global warming as a ruse or saying the 2nd law of thermodynamics supports creationism? Is it too much to imagine racist engineers? Ignorance and stupidity exists within scientific circles (and I would know) just as much as it does within political circles, because the human factor is present equally in both cases.

We need better/more inclusive values in our leadership, but that has very little to do with profession.
I like to think that the moon is there even if I am not looking at it. -Albert Einstein
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
September 23 2011 01:10 GMT
#722
On September 23 2011 08:12 sevencck wrote:
Have you never heard of the numerous scientists denouncing global warming as a ruse or saying the 2nd law of thermodynamics supports creationism?


Yes, and those are <1% of the relevant scientists on the matter (and a bunch of them don't actually have real credentials). So they get outvoted by the ones who aren't cranks.

On September 23 2011 08:12 sevencck wrote:Is it too much to imagine racist engineers?


Good thing engineers don't vote on policies related to racial equality then.

On September 23 2011 08:12 sevencck wrote:
Ignorance and stupidity exists within scientific circles (and I would know) just as much as it does within political circles, because the human factor is present equally in both cases.


Yes, there are ignorant and stupid people with PhD's too, but it should be patently obvious that this percentage is orders of magnitude lower than the percentage of stupid/ignorant people in the general population.
sevencck
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada704 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-23 01:27:00
September 23 2011 01:19 GMT
#723
On September 23 2011 10:10 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2011 08:12 sevencck wrote:
Have you never heard of the numerous scientists denouncing global warming as a ruse or saying the 2nd law of thermodynamics supports creationism?


Yes, and those are <1% of the relevant scientists on the matter (and a bunch of them don't actually have real credentials). So they get outvoted by the ones who aren't cranks.

Show nested quote +
On September 23 2011 08:12 sevencck wrote:Is it too much to imagine racist engineers?


Good thing engineers don't vote on policies related to racial equality then.

Show nested quote +
On September 23 2011 08:12 sevencck wrote:
Ignorance and stupidity exists within scientific circles (and I would know) just as much as it does within political circles, because the human factor is present equally in both cases.


Yes, there are ignorant and stupid people with PhD's too, but it should be patently obvious that this percentage is orders of magnitude lower than the percentage of stupid/ignorant people in the general population.


You're missing the point. The ancient Greek philosophers had a notion of the human experience being comprised of truth beauty and goodness. The idea being that all human experience fundamentally falls into one of these elements, or a combination, and that none can overrule any of the others. Truth can be likened to scientific understanding. Beauty is obviously not related to this in the least. Beauty can be likened on a simplistic level to artistic awareness perhaps and other things. Goodness can be likened to morality. Each of these three elements exists independently of the others. The point is that each of these are vitally important aspects to human experience, and neither of the three can be overemphasized at the expense of the others. If you're more interested in this idea you can Google integral philosophy. As critical as I am of democracy, where it excels is that it is a system wherein all of these three elements are well represented.

You are espousing a system of government that is based almost completely in one of these elements, that being truth. In other words, it's just an orange meme modernist fantasy land where enlightened scientists guide human development with their dogmatic rational empiricism.

As a scientist myself, let me give you my opinion on the matter.

LOL

Edit: I should also add that moral awareness, or how developed someone's values are, is generally speaking independent of career. Anyway this system of government is fundamentally oligarchic in nature. Democracy is fine. Education on the other hand..
I like to think that the moon is there even if I am not looking at it. -Albert Einstein
Diizzy
Profile Joined August 2011
United States828 Posts
September 23 2011 01:23 GMT
#724
whats good about a democracy is that scientists have become presidents before. even obama went to harvard. the greatest presidents weren't scientist in the U.S. thats for sure.
VanGarde
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden755 Posts
September 23 2011 01:36 GMT
#725
Well, which form of government is "best" is always a matter of by what parameters you want to define a well run society.

But it is, as hard for it is for most of us in the western world to swallow the fact, arguably so that democracy is an inefficient way to run a society. A technocracy would be vastly superior in running a country efficiently and dealing with long term problems such as peak oil and what not.

In fact I think a technocracy is superior to all forms of government except for the risk of corruption. Unless there is a way to remove the people in charge then there is huge risks of the system falling into a form of despotism instead. The same goes for the fact that it might be hard to devise a system that accurately puts the right people in the right spots.

But yes clearly if there was an element of democracy, where the people could step in and throw an official out of office with a sort of emergency button, then clearly a society where decisions are made by the people most qualified to make them would be much more functional.

Sadly, democracy is inherently incapable of dealing with long term problems, and it suffers the problem of being dependent on the average intelligence of the voters. People today are grossly uneducated about science, and uninterested. You go into a book store and you will find more books on astrology than on astronomy. More people knew who got voted out of the big brother house than the number of people who are excited about reading about the findings of neutrino's moving faster than the speed of light.

There is very little motivation for politicians to make changes that are tough on us now, because those changes are needed to solve long term problems. Voters are shortsighted and only want stuff for free. No one will vote for the guy who suggests everyone to swallow bad tasting medicine. I seriously don't see how pure democracies will survive through the end of oil as a combustible resource, or any of the other global problems that needs solutions to be put in place, many many elections before the problems become real.
War does not determine who is right - only who is left.
sevencck
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada704 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-23 01:42:52
September 23 2011 01:41 GMT
#726
On September 23 2011 10:36 VanGarde wrote:
Well, which form of government is "best" is always a matter of by what parameters you want to define a well run society.

But it is, as hard for it is for most of us in the western world to swallow the fact, arguably so that democracy is an inefficient way to run a society. A technocracy would be vastly superior in running a country efficiently and dealing with long term problems such as peak oil and what not.

In fact I think a technocracy is superior to all forms of government except for the risk of corruption. Unless there is a way to remove the people in charge then there is huge risks of the system falling into a form of despotism instead. The same goes for the fact that it might be hard to devise a system that accurately puts the right people in the right spots.

But yes clearly if there was an element of democracy, where the people could step in and throw an official out of office with a sort of emergency button, then clearly a society where decisions are made by the people most qualified to make them would be much more functional.

Sadly, democracy is inherently incapable of dealing with long term problems, and it suffers the problem of being dependent on the average intelligence of the voters. People today are grossly uneducated about science, and uninterested. You go into a book store and you will find more books on astrology than on astronomy. More people knew who got voted out of the big brother house than the number of people who are excited about reading about the findings of neutrino's moving faster than the speed of light.

There is very little motivation for politicians to make changes that are tough on us now, because those changes are needed to solve long term problems. Voters are shortsighted and only want stuff for free. No one will vote for the guy who suggests everyone to swallow bad tasting medicine. I seriously don't see how pure democracies will survive through the end of oil as a combustible resource, or any of the other global problems that needs solutions to be put in place, many many elections before the problems become real.


I completely agree with this appraisal of democracy. As Sir Winston Churchill once said "The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter." But should we be so quick to scrap it all and return to the drawing board? The system might work quite well as our societies evolve and the condition of the average voter improves. Conversely, a technocracy might stymie the evolution of our societies in some respects, and become a burden as the condition of the average voter improves.
I like to think that the moon is there even if I am not looking at it. -Albert Einstein
VanGarde
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden755 Posts
September 23 2011 01:48 GMT
#727
On September 23 2011 10:41 sevencck wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2011 10:36 VanGarde wrote:
Well, which form of government is "best" is always a matter of by what parameters you want to define a well run society.

But it is, as hard for it is for most of us in the western world to swallow the fact, arguably so that democracy is an inefficient way to run a society. A technocracy would be vastly superior in running a country efficiently and dealing with long term problems such as peak oil and what not.

In fact I think a technocracy is superior to all forms of government except for the risk of corruption. Unless there is a way to remove the people in charge then there is huge risks of the system falling into a form of despotism instead. The same goes for the fact that it might be hard to devise a system that accurately puts the right people in the right spots.

But yes clearly if there was an element of democracy, where the people could step in and throw an official out of office with a sort of emergency button, then clearly a society where decisions are made by the people most qualified to make them would be much more functional.

Sadly, democracy is inherently incapable of dealing with long term problems, and it suffers the problem of being dependent on the average intelligence of the voters. People today are grossly uneducated about science, and uninterested. You go into a book store and you will find more books on astrology than on astronomy. More people knew who got voted out of the big brother house than the number of people who are excited about reading about the findings of neutrino's moving faster than the speed of light.

There is very little motivation for politicians to make changes that are tough on us now, because those changes are needed to solve long term problems. Voters are shortsighted and only want stuff for free. No one will vote for the guy who suggests everyone to swallow bad tasting medicine. I seriously don't see how pure democracies will survive through the end of oil as a combustible resource, or any of the other global problems that needs solutions to be put in place, many many elections before the problems become real.


I completely agree with this appraisal of democracy. As Sir Winston Churchill once said "The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter." But should we scrap it all and return to the drawing board? The system might work quite well as our societies evolve and the condition of the average voter improves. Conversely, a technocracy might stymie the evolution of our societies in some respects, and become a burden as the condition of the average voter improves.


Yeah, every system has its pro's and con's. I am of the opinion that a hybrid between technocracy and democracy is not only ideal but urgently needed. It is like we have settled on the notion that we've discovered all the forms of government already, while there is nothing saying we can't create a new one.

I don't know how it should be done in an ideal world but a system that combines the ability for people to influence and to elect officials while councils of experts that are chosen by merit and experience much like people are employed to companies would have a much stronger influence as well over the decisions in each field. For example the medical council, consisting of doctors, biochemists, evolutionary biologists etc and without any of them being connected to any companies could put in a motion that we ban the use of antibiotics for farm animals to prevent the rampant spread of resistant bacteria. And it would be more than just a recommendation but an actual motion that in order to not carry through would have to be stopped in the elected chamber.

War does not determine who is right - only who is left.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-23 03:08:27
September 23 2011 03:00 GMT
#728
On September 23 2011 10:19 sevencck wrote:
You're missing the point. The ancient Greek philosophers had a notion of the human experience being comprised of truth beauty and goodness. The idea being that all human experience fundamentally falls into one of these elements, or a combination, and that none can overrule any of the others. Truth can be likened to scientific understanding. Beauty is obviously not related to this in the least. Beauty can be likened on a simplistic level to artistic awareness perhaps and other things. Goodness can be likened to morality. Each of these three elements exists independently of the others. The point is that each of these are vitally important aspects to human experience, and neither of the three can be overemphasized at the expense of the others. If you're more interested in this idea you can Google integral philosophy. As critical as I am of democracy, where it excels is that it is a system wherein all of these three elements are well represented.


You assume that truth, beauty, and goodness are all well-represented in a democracy. I would argue to the contrary that none of them are well-represented.

Perhaps in theory, democracy accomplishes what you imagine it does, but in reality, democracy is ignorant, ugly, and morally bankrupt.

On September 23 2011 10:19 sevencck wrote:
You are espousing a system of government that is based almost completely in one of these elements, that being truth. In other words, it's just an orange meme modernist fantasy land where enlightened scientists guide human development with their dogmatic rational empiricism.


You also assume that "beauty" and "goodness" should be a part of government. I fundamentally disagree.

I could care less about your ancient Greek ideals (though it's ironic that you espouse them since the ancient Greeks thought the idea of a democracy where anyone can vote was ludicrous). What I want is a government which does it's job of managing society to the benefit of the whole, not a government where a few powerful interests manipulate idiot voters into doing their bidding.
sevencck
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada704 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-23 03:24:01
September 23 2011 03:22 GMT
#729
On September 23 2011 12:00 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2011 10:19 sevencck wrote:
You're missing the point. The ancient Greek philosophers had a notion of the human experience being comprised of truth beauty and goodness. The idea being that all human experience fundamentally falls into one of these elements, or a combination, and that none can overrule any of the others. Truth can be likened to scientific understanding. Beauty is obviously not related to this in the least. Beauty can be likened on a simplistic level to artistic awareness perhaps and other things. Goodness can be likened to morality. Each of these three elements exists independently of the others. The point is that each of these are vitally important aspects to human experience, and neither of the three can be overemphasized at the expense of the others. If you're more interested in this idea you can Google integral philosophy. As critical as I am of democracy, where it excels is that it is a system wherein all of these three elements are well represented.


You assume that truth, beauty, and goodness are all well-represented in a democracy. I would argue to the contrary that none of them are well-represented.

Perhaps in theory, democracy accomplishes what you imagine it does, but in reality, democracy is ignorant, ugly, and morally bankrupt.

Show nested quote +
On September 23 2011 10:19 sevencck wrote:
You are espousing a system of government that is based almost completely in one of these elements, that being truth. In other words, it's just an orange meme modernist fantasy land where enlightened scientists guide human development with their dogmatic rational empiricism.


You also assume that "beauty" and "goodness" should be a part of government. I fundamentally disagree.

I could care less about your ancient Greek ideals (though it's ironic that you espouse them since the ancient Greeks thought the idea of a democracy where anyone can vote was ludicrous). What I want is a government which does it's job of managing society to the benefit of the whole, not a government where a few powerful interests manipulate idiot voters into doing their bidding.


There isn't much of a reason for you and I to argue really, because fundamentally I can't say that I disagree with you. I'm often frustrated with democracy to the point where I seldom even bother to vote anymore.

As an example, however, let's look at Monsanto. I know that there are tons of scientists that would love to be able to dive head first into GE because of what it has the potential to do (in short truth). Is it right? Should the "enlightened" few have the capacity to veer humanity down that road without so much as a second through to what is good? I also know alot of scientists in biological research groups that would be more than happy to sacrifice numerous different animals in the pursuit of what is true without a second thought for what is good.

I'd say democracy can do these things. Democracy can have leadership that is inspired by wise people who excel at examining truth, but can also be inspired by people who excel at examining beauty and goodness. Like I said, if you don't like the ancient greeks you can Google integral philosophy for a more comprehensive model. Democracy's current failings are less a failing associated with the political theory per se, but far more a failing pertaining to the people using the system (which again, gets back to truth, beauty, goodness -- someone who sees only truth might make spending cuts to education in certain areas, at the expense of a well balanced population). I think a system where truth and truth alone gets to reign supreme would be a disaster.
I like to think that the moon is there even if I am not looking at it. -Albert Einstein
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
September 23 2011 04:13 GMT
#730
On September 23 2011 12:22 sevencck wrote:
As an example, however, let's look at Monsanto. I know that there are tons of scientists that would love to be able to dive head first into GE because of what it has the potential to do (in short truth). Is it right? Should the "enlightened" few have the capacity to veer humanity down that road without so much as a second through to what is good? I also know alot of scientists in biological research groups that would be more than happy to sacrifice numerous different animals in the pursuit of what is true without a second thought for what is good.


By contrast, however, there are experts in biology and ethics who disagree with them.

In a technocracy, that oppostion would tend to restrain egregious behaviors. In a democracy, however, Monsanto uses its vast funds to affect public opinion, politicians, and policy, in order to ensure it can do what it wants in the pursuit of profit.

On September 23 2011 12:22 sevencck wrote:
Democracy's current failings are less a failing associated with the political theory per se, but far more a failing pertaining to the people using the system (which again, gets back to truth, beauty, goodness -- someone who sees only truth might make spending cuts to education in certain areas, at the expense of a well balanced population). I think a system where truth and truth alone gets to reign supreme would be a disaster.


A political system cannot be measured only according to its full potential or ideal state. Despotism, for example, actually works out pretty well in the event of a kind, enlightened dictator.

Democracy's "current failings" are real problems with the system, because the nature of allowing everyone to vote in their ignorant self-interest inherently allows for the problems we currently see.
sevencck
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada704 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-23 05:03:05
September 23 2011 05:02 GMT
#731
On September 23 2011 13:13 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2011 12:22 sevencck wrote:
As an example, however, let's look at Monsanto. I know that there are tons of scientists that would love to be able to dive head first into GE because of what it has the potential to do (in short truth). Is it right? Should the "enlightened" few have the capacity to veer humanity down that road without so much as a second through to what is good? I also know alot of scientists in biological research groups that would be more than happy to sacrifice numerous different animals in the pursuit of what is true without a second thought for what is good.


By contrast, however, there are experts in biology and ethics who disagree with them.

In a technocracy, that oppostion would tend to restrain egregious behaviors. In a democracy, however, Monsanto uses its vast funds to affect public opinion, politicians, and policy, in order to ensure it can do what it wants in the pursuit of profit.

Show nested quote +
On September 23 2011 12:22 sevencck wrote:
Democracy's current failings are less a failing associated with the political theory per se, but far more a failing pertaining to the people using the system (which again, gets back to truth, beauty, goodness -- someone who sees only truth might make spending cuts to education in certain areas, at the expense of a well balanced population). I think a system where truth and truth alone gets to reign supreme would be a disaster.


A political system cannot be measured only according to its full potential or ideal state. Despotism, for example, actually works out pretty well in the event of a kind, enlightened dictator.

Democracy's "current failings" are real problems with the system, because the nature of allowing everyone to vote in their ignorant self-interest inherently allows for the problems we currently see.


You're highlighting the failings of democracy while trumpeting the (possible) virtues of a different system. You're also assuming that you can get a balanced moral view out of biologists (who I'll remind you are inherently interested in their research proceeding). Also, I suppose noone else gets to critique the moral practices of biologists since they aren't biologists (forgetting of course that biologists are experts in biology and may not have the most inclusive view in terms of social morality). When PETA has something to say about the way lab animals are treated what happens? Are they ignored for their biological ignorance (which is of course totally irrelevant)?

You see the trouble with what you're talking about IMO is that it's overly idealistic and simplistic. Experts come together to talk about truth, and the rest of us that don't get to have our say had better hope they have goodness in mind for all our sakes. The difficulty is that expertise and excellence in humanity aren't so easy to draw borders around. It's also interesting that you said you had no interest in goodness, because you assume (incorrectly) that truth by definition will speak for goodness.

Completely agree that a political system cannot be measured only according to its full potential or ideal state.
I like to think that the moon is there even if I am not looking at it. -Albert Einstein
Misled
Profile Joined December 2010
Germany19 Posts
September 23 2011 11:57 GMT
#732
I haven't had time to actually read the full thread yet, because I'm only on my lunch break at the moment. But I do find this thread very interesting, because I was thinking about this not all to long ago.

My perspective on Technocracy should not just be a Democracy in which you substitute politicians with ''experts'' in a certain field. Also a Technocracy should not be seen as something that puts more emphasis on science and engineering.

As I see it (as the engineer that I am, I should add ), a technocracy can be a system that builds on key engineering or scientific aspects or keywords such as ''Logic'' and ''Innovation'' without forgetting key aspects of Democracy like ''Equality'' and ''Respect''.

An upgrade or patch for democracy maybe?

I'll check back this evening. Have to go back to work now
HellRoxYa
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden1614 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-23 12:24:07
September 23 2011 12:23 GMT
#733
On September 23 2011 10:48 VanGarde wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2011 10:41 sevencck wrote:
On September 23 2011 10:36 VanGarde wrote:
Well, which form of government is "best" is always a matter of by what parameters you want to define a well run society.

But it is, as hard for it is for most of us in the western world to swallow the fact, arguably so that democracy is an inefficient way to run a society. A technocracy would be vastly superior in running a country efficiently and dealing with long term problems such as peak oil and what not.

In fact I think a technocracy is superior to all forms of government except for the risk of corruption. Unless there is a way to remove the people in charge then there is huge risks of the system falling into a form of despotism instead. The same goes for the fact that it might be hard to devise a system that accurately puts the right people in the right spots.

But yes clearly if there was an element of democracy, where the people could step in and throw an official out of office with a sort of emergency button, then clearly a society where decisions are made by the people most qualified to make them would be much more functional.

Sadly, democracy is inherently incapable of dealing with long term problems, and it suffers the problem of being dependent on the average intelligence of the voters. People today are grossly uneducated about science, and uninterested. You go into a book store and you will find more books on astrology than on astronomy. More people knew who got voted out of the big brother house than the number of people who are excited about reading about the findings of neutrino's moving faster than the speed of light.

There is very little motivation for politicians to make changes that are tough on us now, because those changes are needed to solve long term problems. Voters are shortsighted and only want stuff for free. No one will vote for the guy who suggests everyone to swallow bad tasting medicine. I seriously don't see how pure democracies will survive through the end of oil as a combustible resource, or any of the other global problems that needs solutions to be put in place, many many elections before the problems become real.


I completely agree with this appraisal of democracy. As Sir Winston Churchill once said "The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter." But should we scrap it all and return to the drawing board? The system might work quite well as our societies evolve and the condition of the average voter improves. Conversely, a technocracy might stymie the evolution of our societies in some respects, and become a burden as the condition of the average voter improves.


Yeah, every system has its pro's and con's. I am of the opinion that a hybrid between technocracy and democracy is not only ideal but urgently needed. It is like we have settled on the notion that we've discovered all the forms of government already, while there is nothing saying we can't create a new one.

I don't know how it should be done in an ideal world but a system that combines the ability for people to influence and to elect officials while councils of experts that are chosen by merit and experience much like people are employed to companies would have a much stronger influence as well over the decisions in each field. For example the medical council, consisting of doctors, biochemists, evolutionary biologists etc and without any of them being connected to any companies could put in a motion that we ban the use of antibiotics for farm animals to prevent the rampant spread of resistant bacteria. And it would be more than just a recommendation but an actual motion that in order to not carry through would have to be stopped in the elected chamber.



As has been pointed out earlier in this thread this is already being done. You might be interested in picking up a book on the Swedish political system and how the Riksdag operates. In short our politicians make great use of kommissioner, which are tasked with examining one or several issues and present a report to the politicians. Kommissionerna in turn make use of experts in whatever field or fields relate to the issue they are examining or investigating.

At the end of the day, when the report is presented, it is up to the elected politicians to make a decision whether whatever the report says should be concidered valid and/or relevant or not. At this point, if you dislike what the politicians are doing, you replace them during the next election. Alternatively you can try to have a public debate or reach them individually through public means of contact (phone, e-mail).

Although I'm not an expert on the American political system this seems to be the norm for their system as well.
Jongl0
Profile Joined June 2011
631 Posts
September 23 2011 12:41 GMT
#734
I don't think is would be any worse at least.
Shraft
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden701 Posts
September 23 2011 12:46 GMT
#735
I don't want some "experts" to decide what's healthy or what's legal or illegal. A government limited to only police and courts would be superior to a technocracy in every single way. Any form of society that relies on heavy centralization is bound to be worse than a free market one.

Also, just how much power are these rulers supposed to hold? Can they adopt heavy taxation of the citizens to fund some important scientific project?
Talin
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Montenegro10532 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-23 14:01:19
September 23 2011 13:55 GMT
#736
On September 23 2011 21:46 Shraft wrote:
I don't want some "experts" to decide what's healthy or what's legal or illegal. A government limited to only police and courts would be superior to a technocracy in every single way. Any form of society that relies on heavy centralization is bound to be worse than a free market one.


See that's exactly the problem - you oppose an idea because you don't like it. This is exactly why what people want or don't want or like and dislike shouldn't matter, and objective efficiency should.

How is it "bound to be worse" anyway?

One of the greatest advantages humans have, being on the evolutionary stage that we are, is the ability to form strong and structured communities and benefit from proper hierarchy and organization.

Allowing everybody to do what they want, say what they want, and behave how they want, chasing only their own personal interests is a recipe for disaster - which is exactly what the last few hundreds of years of human history have been - a disaster. So much of our joint potential and energy has been wasted on superficial things and coping with outdated social structures.

Society fostering and encouraging internal conflict and competition on every level is fundamentally absurd and anti-progressive. What you're advocating essentially turns humans into animals with technology. In fact, some insect species would have more advanced organizational structures than we do.
VanGarde
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden755 Posts
September 23 2011 14:09 GMT
#737
On September 23 2011 21:23 HellRoxYa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2011 10:48 VanGarde wrote:
On September 23 2011 10:41 sevencck wrote:
On September 23 2011 10:36 VanGarde wrote:
Well, which form of government is "best" is always a matter of by what parameters you want to define a well run society.

But it is, as hard for it is for most of us in the western world to swallow the fact, arguably so that democracy is an inefficient way to run a society. A technocracy would be vastly superior in running a country efficiently and dealing with long term problems such as peak oil and what not.

In fact I think a technocracy is superior to all forms of government except for the risk of corruption. Unless there is a way to remove the people in charge then there is huge risks of the system falling into a form of despotism instead. The same goes for the fact that it might be hard to devise a system that accurately puts the right people in the right spots.

But yes clearly if there was an element of democracy, where the people could step in and throw an official out of office with a sort of emergency button, then clearly a society where decisions are made by the people most qualified to make them would be much more functional.

Sadly, democracy is inherently incapable of dealing with long term problems, and it suffers the problem of being dependent on the average intelligence of the voters. People today are grossly uneducated about science, and uninterested. You go into a book store and you will find more books on astrology than on astronomy. More people knew who got voted out of the big brother house than the number of people who are excited about reading about the findings of neutrino's moving faster than the speed of light.

There is very little motivation for politicians to make changes that are tough on us now, because those changes are needed to solve long term problems. Voters are shortsighted and only want stuff for free. No one will vote for the guy who suggests everyone to swallow bad tasting medicine. I seriously don't see how pure democracies will survive through the end of oil as a combustible resource, or any of the other global problems that needs solutions to be put in place, many many elections before the problems become real.


I completely agree with this appraisal of democracy. As Sir Winston Churchill once said "The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter." But should we scrap it all and return to the drawing board? The system might work quite well as our societies evolve and the condition of the average voter improves. Conversely, a technocracy might stymie the evolution of our societies in some respects, and become a burden as the condition of the average voter improves.


Yeah, every system has its pro's and con's. I am of the opinion that a hybrid between technocracy and democracy is not only ideal but urgently needed. It is like we have settled on the notion that we've discovered all the forms of government already, while there is nothing saying we can't create a new one.

I don't know how it should be done in an ideal world but a system that combines the ability for people to influence and to elect officials while councils of experts that are chosen by merit and experience much like people are employed to companies would have a much stronger influence as well over the decisions in each field. For example the medical council, consisting of doctors, biochemists, evolutionary biologists etc and without any of them being connected to any companies could put in a motion that we ban the use of antibiotics for farm animals to prevent the rampant spread of resistant bacteria. And it would be more than just a recommendation but an actual motion that in order to not carry through would have to be stopped in the elected chamber.



As has been pointed out earlier in this thread this is already being done. You might be interested in picking up a book on the Swedish political system and how the Riksdag operates. In short our politicians make great use of kommissioner, which are tasked with examining one or several issues and present a report to the politicians. Kommissionerna in turn make use of experts in whatever field or fields relate to the issue they are examining or investigating.

At the end of the day, when the report is presented, it is up to the elected politicians to make a decision whether whatever the report says should be concidered valid and/or relevant or not. At this point, if you dislike what the politicians are doing, you replace them during the next election. Alternatively you can try to have a public debate or reach them individually through public means of contact (phone, e-mail).

Although I'm not an expert on the American political system this seems to be the norm for their system as well.


Yeah, I am a swede I know how the system works
Although I do not agree that the system is anywhere near the one I am thinking of. There is little or rather no actual power invested in this highly advisory system. Secondly these people are not the kind of expert councils you would want in a technocracy, there is no rule for who does this, in fact it is politicians to the vast extent and not at all experts in various fields but as you said meant to go out and get expert opinions which is a very indirect way of gaining information, with very little guarantee for its accuracy.
Furthermore the problem remains that all power lies with the uneducated public and none with the actual experts.

The system I am advocating is vastly different from this one.
War does not determine who is right - only who is left.
Shraft
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden701 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-23 15:21:48
September 23 2011 15:16 GMT
#738
On September 23 2011 22:55 Talin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2011 21:46 Shraft wrote:
I don't want some "experts" to decide what's healthy or what's legal or illegal. A government limited to only police and courts would be superior to a technocracy in every single way. Any form of society that relies on heavy centralization is bound to be worse than a free market one.


See that's exactly the problem - you oppose an idea because you don't like it. This is exactly why what people want or don't want or like and dislike shouldn't matter, and objective efficiency should.

How is it "bound to be worse" anyway?

One of the greatest advantages humans have, being on the evolutionary stage that we are, is the ability to form strong and structured communities and benefit from proper hierarchy and organization.

Allowing everybody to do what they want, say what they want, and behave how they want, chasing only their own personal interests is a recipe for disaster - which is exactly what the last few hundreds of years of human history have been - a disaster. So much of our joint potential and energy has been wasted on superficial things and coping with outdated social structures.

Society fostering and encouraging internal conflict and competition on every level is fundamentally absurd and anti-progressive. What you're advocating essentially turns humans into animals with technology. In fact, some insect species would have more advanced organizational structures than we do.


It's bound to be worse because a free market leads to the best/most efficient economy. I am not the greatest economist myself, but there's plenty of books/videos on the subject. (Economics in one lesson, for example)
And you're entirely wrong on the "competition is bad" stuff. Competition on a free market means that the companies have to produce commodities that people want, or they'll go bankrupt.

And who are they to decide what's objectively wrong? Perhaps they'll decide that steroids are bad for your health, so they'll prohibit the production and consumption of them. But if I think that the benefits of using steroids outweigh the health hazard, then why can't I use them? As long as I don't hurt anyone else, it should all be fine and dandy.

Basically, it's stupid to have a bunch of guys decide what's in the best interests of everyone.
HellRoxYa
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden1614 Posts
September 23 2011 15:32 GMT
#739
On September 23 2011 23:09 VanGarde wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2011 21:23 HellRoxYa wrote:
On September 23 2011 10:48 VanGarde wrote:
On September 23 2011 10:41 sevencck wrote:
On September 23 2011 10:36 VanGarde wrote:
Well, which form of government is "best" is always a matter of by what parameters you want to define a well run society.

But it is, as hard for it is for most of us in the western world to swallow the fact, arguably so that democracy is an inefficient way to run a society. A technocracy would be vastly superior in running a country efficiently and dealing with long term problems such as peak oil and what not.

In fact I think a technocracy is superior to all forms of government except for the risk of corruption. Unless there is a way to remove the people in charge then there is huge risks of the system falling into a form of despotism instead. The same goes for the fact that it might be hard to devise a system that accurately puts the right people in the right spots.

But yes clearly if there was an element of democracy, where the people could step in and throw an official out of office with a sort of emergency button, then clearly a society where decisions are made by the people most qualified to make them would be much more functional.

Sadly, democracy is inherently incapable of dealing with long term problems, and it suffers the problem of being dependent on the average intelligence of the voters. People today are grossly uneducated about science, and uninterested. You go into a book store and you will find more books on astrology than on astronomy. More people knew who got voted out of the big brother house than the number of people who are excited about reading about the findings of neutrino's moving faster than the speed of light.

There is very little motivation for politicians to make changes that are tough on us now, because those changes are needed to solve long term problems. Voters are shortsighted and only want stuff for free. No one will vote for the guy who suggests everyone to swallow bad tasting medicine. I seriously don't see how pure democracies will survive through the end of oil as a combustible resource, or any of the other global problems that needs solutions to be put in place, many many elections before the problems become real.


I completely agree with this appraisal of democracy. As Sir Winston Churchill once said "The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter." But should we scrap it all and return to the drawing board? The system might work quite well as our societies evolve and the condition of the average voter improves. Conversely, a technocracy might stymie the evolution of our societies in some respects, and become a burden as the condition of the average voter improves.


Yeah, every system has its pro's and con's. I am of the opinion that a hybrid between technocracy and democracy is not only ideal but urgently needed. It is like we have settled on the notion that we've discovered all the forms of government already, while there is nothing saying we can't create a new one.

I don't know how it should be done in an ideal world but a system that combines the ability for people to influence and to elect officials while councils of experts that are chosen by merit and experience much like people are employed to companies would have a much stronger influence as well over the decisions in each field. For example the medical council, consisting of doctors, biochemists, evolutionary biologists etc and without any of them being connected to any companies could put in a motion that we ban the use of antibiotics for farm animals to prevent the rampant spread of resistant bacteria. And it would be more than just a recommendation but an actual motion that in order to not carry through would have to be stopped in the elected chamber.



As has been pointed out earlier in this thread this is already being done. You might be interested in picking up a book on the Swedish political system and how the Riksdag operates. In short our politicians make great use of kommissioner, which are tasked with examining one or several issues and present a report to the politicians. Kommissionerna in turn make use of experts in whatever field or fields relate to the issue they are examining or investigating.

At the end of the day, when the report is presented, it is up to the elected politicians to make a decision whether whatever the report says should be concidered valid and/or relevant or not. At this point, if you dislike what the politicians are doing, you replace them during the next election. Alternatively you can try to have a public debate or reach them individually through public means of contact (phone, e-mail).

Although I'm not an expert on the American political system this seems to be the norm for their system as well.


Yeah, I am a swede I know how the system works
Although I do not agree that the system is anywhere near the one I am thinking of. There is little or rather no actual power invested in this highly advisory system. Secondly these people are not the kind of expert councils you would want in a technocracy, there is no rule for who does this, in fact it is politicians to the vast extent and not at all experts in various fields but as you said meant to go out and get expert opinions which is a very indirect way of gaining information, with very little guarantee for its accuracy.
Furthermore the problem remains that all power lies with the uneducated public and none with the actual experts.

The system I am advocating is vastly different from this one.


You didn't advocate a system at all and what you described is what we have today. I think you are misinformed and distrustful because of it.

However, a system without public support is very much so a worser system. When we get a technocractic party elected with majority and they change the system (requires super majority, ie. they're going to have very strong support or a super majority of public votes) then I'll be inclined to agree with you, at least partly. That wont ever happen so I'll conclude that you're wrong.
vetinari
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia602 Posts
September 23 2011 15:41 GMT
#740
Before I endorse technocracy, what would women's studies professors decide upon?
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
September 23 2011 15:58 GMT
#741
On September 24 2011 00:16 Shraft wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2011 22:55 Talin wrote:
On September 23 2011 21:46 Shraft wrote:
I don't want some "experts" to decide what's healthy or what's legal or illegal. A government limited to only police and courts would be superior to a technocracy in every single way. Any form of society that relies on heavy centralization is bound to be worse than a free market one.


See that's exactly the problem - you oppose an idea because you don't like it. This is exactly why what people want or don't want or like and dislike shouldn't matter, and objective efficiency should.

How is it "bound to be worse" anyway?

One of the greatest advantages humans have, being on the evolutionary stage that we are, is the ability to form strong and structured communities and benefit from proper hierarchy and organization.

Allowing everybody to do what they want, say what they want, and behave how they want, chasing only their own personal interests is a recipe for disaster - which is exactly what the last few hundreds of years of human history have been - a disaster. So much of our joint potential and energy has been wasted on superficial things and coping with outdated social structures.

Society fostering and encouraging internal conflict and competition on every level is fundamentally absurd and anti-progressive. What you're advocating essentially turns humans into animals with technology. In fact, some insect species would have more advanced organizational structures than we do.


It's bound to be worse because a free market leads to the best/most efficient economy. I am not the greatest economist myself, but there's plenty of books/videos on the subject. (Economics in one lesson, for example)
And you're entirely wrong on the "competition is bad" stuff. Competition on a free market means that the companies have to produce commodities that people want, or they'll go bankrupt.

And who are they to decide what's objectively wrong? Perhaps they'll decide that steroids are bad for your health, so they'll prohibit the production and consumption of them. But if I think that the benefits of using steroids outweigh the health hazard, then why can't I use them? As long as I don't hurt anyone else, it should all be fine and dandy.

Basically, it's stupid to have a bunch of guys decide what's in the best interests of everyone.

No free market does not in general lead to the most efficient economy. Only if you define efficiency to fit what you are trying to prove does it hold true. Competition is redundancy, that might be good or bad depending on circumstances. Competition is definitely not good in all cases.

As long as you do not hurt anyone else is extremely continuous concept. What if your use of steroids hurts your loved ones ? Is it hurting anyone or not ? In societies the concept of hurting someone else is much more broad than most people acknowledge and varies from one society to another. For example in society with public healthcare your overuse of steroids hurts other people, in some other it might not.

But no matter where we draw the line objectively wrong can be only something that hurts other people, so your objection is invalid. Things that you do that do not hurt other people cannot be objectively wrong for the purpose of policy decisions.
Shraft
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden701 Posts
September 23 2011 16:41 GMT
#742
On September 24 2011 00:58 mcc wrote:
No free market does not in general lead to the most efficient economy. Only if you define efficiency to fit what you are trying to prove does it hold true. Competition is redundancy, that might be good or bad depending on circumstances. Competition is definitely not good in all cases.


Definitely not good in all cases? For whom? Market competition is always good if you're looking at a population as a whole, but it might be bad for an individual or a group of people.

On September 24 2011 00:58 mcc wrote:
As long as you do not hurt anyone else is extremely continuous concept. What if your use of steroids hurts your loved ones ? Is it hurting anyone or not ? In societies the concept of hurting someone else is much more broad than most people acknowledge and varies from one society to another. For example in society with public healthcare your overuse of steroids hurts other people, in some other it might not.


As long as something doesn't directly hurt someone, it shouldn't be classified as a crime. For example, say that intake of alcohol increases the risk of you battering someone by 10%. This does not warrant a prohibition on the consumption of alcohol, because the actual crime is battering, not drinking. By the same principle, driving cars should not be prohibited, but running people over with them should. There are tons of examples, but I think you get the point.

On September 24 2011 00:58 mcc wrote:
But no matter where we draw the line objectively wrong can be only something that hurts other people, so your objection is invalid. Things that you do that do not hurt other people cannot be objectively wrong for the purpose of policy decisions.


So, do you think that acts/things that may indirectly hurt others should be prohibited or not?
vetinari
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia602 Posts
September 23 2011 16:49 GMT
#743
On September 24 2011 01:41 Shraft wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2011 00:58 mcc wrote:
No free market does not in general lead to the most efficient economy. Only if you define efficiency to fit what you are trying to prove does it hold true. Competition is redundancy, that might be good or bad depending on circumstances. Competition is definitely not good in all cases.


Definitely not good in all cases? For whom? Market competition is always good if you're looking at a population as a whole, but it might be bad for an individual or a group of people.

Show nested quote +
On September 24 2011 00:58 mcc wrote:
As long as you do not hurt anyone else is extremely continuous concept. What if your use of steroids hurts your loved ones ? Is it hurting anyone or not ? In societies the concept of hurting someone else is much more broad than most people acknowledge and varies from one society to another. For example in society with public healthcare your overuse of steroids hurts other people, in some other it might not.


As long as something doesn't directly hurt someone, it shouldn't be classified as a crime. For example, say that intake of alcohol increases the risk of you battering someone by 10%. This does not warrant a prohibition on the consumption of alcohol, because the actual crime is battering, not drinking. By the same principle, driving cars should not be prohibited, but running people over with them should. There are tons of examples, but I think you get the point.

Show nested quote +
On September 24 2011 00:58 mcc wrote:
But no matter where we draw the line objectively wrong can be only something that hurts other people, so your objection is invalid. Things that you do that do not hurt other people cannot be objectively wrong for the purpose of policy decisions.


So, do you think that acts/things that may indirectly hurt others should be prohibited or not?


Perfect competition in the absence of externalities, leads to an efficient distribution of resources.

Its important to remember that very, very few industries could be characterised as perfectly competitive and basically no industry is free of externalities.
Shraft
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden701 Posts
September 23 2011 16:55 GMT
#744
On September 24 2011 01:49 vetinari wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2011 01:41 Shraft wrote:
On September 24 2011 00:58 mcc wrote:
No free market does not in general lead to the most efficient economy. Only if you define efficiency to fit what you are trying to prove does it hold true. Competition is redundancy, that might be good or bad depending on circumstances. Competition is definitely not good in all cases.


Definitely not good in all cases? For whom? Market competition is always good if you're looking at a population as a whole, but it might be bad for an individual or a group of people.

On September 24 2011 00:58 mcc wrote:
As long as you do not hurt anyone else is extremely continuous concept. What if your use of steroids hurts your loved ones ? Is it hurting anyone or not ? In societies the concept of hurting someone else is much more broad than most people acknowledge and varies from one society to another. For example in society with public healthcare your overuse of steroids hurts other people, in some other it might not.


As long as something doesn't directly hurt someone, it shouldn't be classified as a crime. For example, say that intake of alcohol increases the risk of you battering someone by 10%. This does not warrant a prohibition on the consumption of alcohol, because the actual crime is battering, not drinking. By the same principle, driving cars should not be prohibited, but running people over with them should. There are tons of examples, but I think you get the point.

On September 24 2011 00:58 mcc wrote:
But no matter where we draw the line objectively wrong can be only something that hurts other people, so your objection is invalid. Things that you do that do not hurt other people cannot be objectively wrong for the purpose of policy decisions.


So, do you think that acts/things that may indirectly hurt others should be prohibited or not?


Perfect competition in the absence of externalities, leads to an efficient distribution of resources.

Its important to remember that very, very few industries could be characterised as perfectly competitive and basically no industry is free of externalities.


It is true that very few industries can be characterised as perfectly competitive today, and I think that's a shame. Apart from that, I don't really see what you're trying to say with your post. Care to elaborate?
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
September 23 2011 17:17 GMT
#745
On September 24 2011 01:41 Shraft wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2011 00:58 mcc wrote:
No free market does not in general lead to the most efficient economy. Only if you define efficiency to fit what you are trying to prove does it hold true. Competition is redundancy, that might be good or bad depending on circumstances. Competition is definitely not good in all cases.


Definitely not good in all cases? For whom? Market competition is always good if you're looking at a population as a whole, but it might be bad for an individual or a group of people.

No it might be also bad for a whole society. There are situations where redundancy introduced by the competition is too big compared to gains. It seems to me that it is you who is talking about a subset of the population, specifically the consumers of the product in question, whereas I talk about society as a whole and that is the difference.

But even if I considered it from the point of view of the consumers, competition might lead to situations (unlikely ones but possible) where the product is more expensive then it would be in monopoly. Economies of scale and all that.

On September 24 2011 01:41 Shraft wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2011 00:58 mcc wrote:
As long as you do not hurt anyone else is extremely continuous concept. What if your use of steroids hurts your loved ones ? Is it hurting anyone or not ? In societies the concept of hurting someone else is much more broad than most people acknowledge and varies from one society to another. For example in society with public healthcare your overuse of steroids hurts other people, in some other it might not.


As long as something doesn't directly hurt someone, it shouldn't be classified as a crime. For example, say that intake of alcohol increases the risk of you battering someone by 10%. This does not warrant a prohibition on the consumption of alcohol, because the actual crime is battering, not drinking. By the same principle, driving cars should not be prohibited, but running people over with them should. There are tons of examples, but I think you get the point.

Show nested quote +
On September 24 2011 00:58 mcc wrote:
But no matter where we draw the line objectively wrong can be only something that hurts other people, so your objection is invalid. Things that you do that do not hurt other people cannot be objectively wrong for the purpose of policy decisions.


So, do you think that acts/things that may indirectly hurt others should be prohibited or not?

There is no clear distinction between directly and indirectly hurting someone. It is continuum not discrete.

As for your examples, what if someone puts one round into a revolver and then randomly spins it, points at you and "shoots". Should this act be allowed ? There is only (for example) 1/6 chance he will kill you. Similarly with DUI. The point is there is no such thing as clear distinction between direct and indirect hurt. Of course in practice we pick some point, but the reasoning for picking that point is not following from your simplistic criteria. You need more complex reasoning.
Shraft
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden701 Posts
September 23 2011 17:39 GMT
#746
On September 24 2011 02:17 mcc wrote:
No it might be also bad for a whole society. There are situations where redundancy introduced by the competition is too big compared to gains. It seems to me that it is you who is talking about a subset of the population, specifically the consumers of the product in question, whereas I talk about society as a whole and that is the difference.

But even if I considered it from the point of view of the consumers, competition might lead to situations (unlikely ones but possible) where the product is more expensive then it would be in monopoly. Economies of scale and all that.


You keep talking about this "redundancy of competition" without declaring what it means or why it is bad. Please be more specific or explain some scenarios where this is likely to cause a problem.

The probability for a commodity being more expensive on a free market than in a government endorsed monopoly is so incredibly low that arguing it is futile. By pointing out how unlikely it is you are basically agreeing with me in that products will be cheaper and better on a free market.

On September 24 2011 00:58 mcc wrote:
There is no clear distinction between directly and indirectly hurting someone. It is continuum not discrete.

As for your examples, what if someone puts one round into a revolver and then randomly spins it, points at you and "shoots". Should this act be allowed ? There is only (for example) 1/6 chance he will kill you. Similarly with DUI. The point is there is no such thing as clear distinction between direct and indirect hurt. Of course in practice we pick some point, but the reasoning for picking that point is not following from your simplistic criteria. You need more complex reasoning.


Shooting someone should be punishable, yes. DUI should not be punishable by state law. It is up to the private owners of roads to decide whether or not they want it to be allowed on their roads or not. (I am not for government financed roads.)
buhhy
Profile Joined October 2009
United States1113 Posts
September 23 2011 17:47 GMT
#747
On September 24 2011 01:55 Shraft wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2011 01:49 vetinari wrote:
On September 24 2011 01:41 Shraft wrote:
On September 24 2011 00:58 mcc wrote:
No free market does not in general lead to the most efficient economy. Only if you define efficiency to fit what you are trying to prove does it hold true. Competition is redundancy, that might be good or bad depending on circumstances. Competition is definitely not good in all cases.


Definitely not good in all cases? For whom? Market competition is always good if you're looking at a population as a whole, but it might be bad for an individual or a group of people.

On September 24 2011 00:58 mcc wrote:
As long as you do not hurt anyone else is extremely continuous concept. What if your use of steroids hurts your loved ones ? Is it hurting anyone or not ? In societies the concept of hurting someone else is much more broad than most people acknowledge and varies from one society to another. For example in society with public healthcare your overuse of steroids hurts other people, in some other it might not.


As long as something doesn't directly hurt someone, it shouldn't be classified as a crime. For example, say that intake of alcohol increases the risk of you battering someone by 10%. This does not warrant a prohibition on the consumption of alcohol, because the actual crime is battering, not drinking. By the same principle, driving cars should not be prohibited, but running people over with them should. There are tons of examples, but I think you get the point.

On September 24 2011 00:58 mcc wrote:
But no matter where we draw the line objectively wrong can be only something that hurts other people, so your objection is invalid. Things that you do that do not hurt other people cannot be objectively wrong for the purpose of policy decisions.


So, do you think that acts/things that may indirectly hurt others should be prohibited or not?


Perfect competition in the absence of externalities, leads to an efficient distribution of resources.

Its important to remember that very, very few industries could be characterised as perfectly competitive and basically no industry is free of externalities.


It is true that very few industries can be characterised as perfectly competitive today, and I think that's a shame. Apart from that, I don't really see what you're trying to say with your post. Care to elaborate?


I'm actually interested in which industries are even close to perfectly competitive. It seems like if any company gains an edge over the competitors, it will leverage its edge to push its competitors out of business.
Shraft
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden701 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-23 18:13:54
September 23 2011 18:04 GMT
#748
On September 24 2011 02:47 buhhy wrote:
I'm actually interested in which industries are even close to perfectly competitive. It seems like if any company gains an edge over the competitors, it will leverage its edge to push its competitors out of business.


Which is perfectly fine. Good companies will put bad companies out of business.

Edit: What I mean when I say that an industry is perfectly competitive is that the government doesn't meddle with the companies in said industry. In order words when government and economy is separated i.e. in a free market society.
buhhy
Profile Joined October 2009
United States1113 Posts
September 23 2011 18:14 GMT
#749
On September 24 2011 03:04 Shraft wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2011 02:47 buhhy wrote:
I'm actually interested in which industries are even close to perfectly competitive. It seems like if any company gains an edge over the competitors, it will leverage its edge to push its competitors out of business.


Which is perfectly fine. Good companies will put bad companies out of business.

Edit: What I mean when I say that an industry is perfectly competitive is that the government doesn't meddle with the companies in said industry. In order words when government and economy is separated i.e. in a free market society.


And eventually a monopoly will be established?
Shraft
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden701 Posts
September 23 2011 18:18 GMT
#750
On September 24 2011 03:14 buhhy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2011 03:04 Shraft wrote:
On September 24 2011 02:47 buhhy wrote:
I'm actually interested in which industries are even close to perfectly competitive. It seems like if any company gains an edge over the competitors, it will leverage its edge to push its competitors out of business.


Which is perfectly fine. Good companies will put bad companies out of business.

Edit: What I mean when I say that an industry is perfectly competitive is that the government doesn't meddle with the companies in said industry. In order words when government and economy is separated i.e. in a free market society.


And eventually a monopoly will be established?


Only if a company can offer you a cheaper, more effective product than its competitors.
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
September 23 2011 18:26 GMT
#751
On September 24 2011 02:39 Shraft wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2011 02:17 mcc wrote:
No it might be also bad for a whole society. There are situations where redundancy introduced by the competition is too big compared to gains. It seems to me that it is you who is talking about a subset of the population, specifically the consumers of the product in question, whereas I talk about society as a whole and that is the difference.

But even if I considered it from the point of view of the consumers, competition might lead to situations (unlikely ones but possible) where the product is more expensive then it would be in monopoly. Economies of scale and all that.


You keep talking about this "redundancy of competition" without declaring what it means or why it is bad. Please be more specific or explain some scenarios where this is likely to cause a problem.

The probability for a commodity being more expensive on a free market than in a government endorsed monopoly is so incredibly low that arguing it is futile. By pointing out how unlikely it is you are basically agreeing with me in that products will be cheaper and better on a free market.

Redundancy of competition means that more than one entity is doing the same. And I do not mean the same product, but the same task. Marketing, accounting, even many management positions would be saved in one bigger company compared to two smaller competing companies, especially since some of those positions are existing only because of the need to compete. It is bad because it can be done better. Of course bigger companies(and also government organizations as they do not differ too much) have their own set of problems like corruption, long feedback loops and so on. And in some situations the economies of scale and lack of redundancy are enough to offset the corruption and other ills of big companies/government organizations.

As for your second paragraph why did you switch from competition vs non-competition to free-market vs government. I was replying specifically to your insistence of competition being always good. It is not like non-government monopoly and free-market are impossibility.

But I will bite even to your point about government. Do you have any evidence that commodity in government endorsed monopoly needs to be more expensive than in free market or are you just repeating your free-market mantra ? I see no reason for it to be so in general.

On September 24 2011 02:39 Shraft wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2011 00:58 mcc wrote:
There is no clear distinction between directly and indirectly hurting someone. It is continuum not discrete.

As for your examples, what if someone puts one round into a revolver and then randomly spins it, points at you and "shoots". Should this act be allowed ? There is only (for example) 1/6 chance he will kill you. Similarly with DUI. The point is there is no such thing as clear distinction between direct and indirect hurt. Of course in practice we pick some point, but the reasoning for picking that point is not following from your simplistic criteria. You need more complex reasoning.


Shooting someone should be punishable, yes. DUI should not be punishable by state law. It is up to the private owners of roads to decide whether or not they want it to be allowed on their roads or not. (I am not for government financed roads.)

I was asking about pointing a loaded gun that has 1/6 chance of hitting you at you and pressing the trigger. Should this be allowed (it is only 1/6 chance that it will actually shoot) , should killing that person in self-defense be allowed ? But anyway you answered what, you did not answer why are those your answers. From what criteria do they follow. They cannot follow from direct/indirect hurt as I pointed out there is no such clear distinction. Any such distinction is quite arbitrary and therefore needs some reasoning behind it. Where do your direct hurt ends and indirect hurt starts ?

Also it is nice that you are against government financed roads, but reality is they mostly are and it is just your wish that they should not be. There is no objective reason why they should be private, so when discussing DUI I am discussing it in the context of the society in question not some imaginary society where governments have nearly no power. As I said previously using steroids in the society where healthcare is public is wrong as it is hurting others, DUI is wrong in any society as it is statistically significantly hurting others. From the last example you can see what my reasoning behind should be illegal/should not be illegal distinction is. If it has statistically significant (relative to it's societal utility) chance of hurting others it should be illegal.
Shraft
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden701 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-23 19:16:55
September 23 2011 19:08 GMT
#752
On September 24 2011 03:26 mcc wrote:
Redundancy of competition means that more than one entity is doing the same. And I do not mean the same product, but the same task. Marketing, accounting, even many management positions would be saved in one bigger company compared to two smaller competing companies, especially since some of those positions are existing only because of the need to compete. It is bad because it can be done better. Of course bigger companies(and also government organizations as they do not differ too much) have their own set of problems like corruption, long feedback loops and so on. And in some situations the economies of scale and lack of redundancy are enough to offset the corruption and other ills of big companies/government organizations.

So what you mean is that the economy will be inefficient because many companies will produce the same thing? Are you serious? If there are too many companies in the same business, then the rate of profits in that branch will drop, and the worse companies will either close their firm or continue until they go bankrupt.

Even if what you said is true, how do you propose we remedy it? By regulations?

On September 24 2011 03:26 mcc wrote:
As for your second paragraph why did you switch from competition vs non-competition to free-market vs government. I was replying specifically to your insistence of competition being always good. It is not like non-government monopoly and free-market are impossibility.

Because competition vs non-competition is the same as free market vs a market regulated by the government.

On September 24 2011 03:26 mcc wrote:
But I will bite even to your point about government. Do you have any evidence that commodity in government endorsed monopoly needs to be more expensive than in free market or are you just repeating your free-market mantra ? I see no reason for it to be so in general.

I am not going to cite endless paragraphs of statistics when all you do is generalise and provide poor reasoning. I suggest you read the book I linked to earlier in the thread if you're interested in learning economics.


On September 24 2011 03:26 mcc wrote:
I was asking about pointing a loaded gun that has 1/6 chance of hitting you at you and pressing the trigger. Should this be allowed (it is only 1/6 chance that it will actually shoot) , should killing that person in self-defense be allowed ? But anyway you answered what, you did not answer why are those your answers. From what criteria do they follow. They cannot follow from direct/indirect hurt as I pointed out there is no such clear distinction. Any such distinction is quite arbitrary and therefore needs some reasoning behind it. Where do your direct hurt ends and indirect hurt starts ?

Also it is nice that you are against government financed roads, but reality is they mostly are and it is just your wish that they should not be. There is no objective reason why they should be private, so when discussing DUI I am discussing it in the context of the society in question not some imaginary society where governments have nearly no power. As I said previously using steroids in the society where healthcare is public is wrong as it is hurting others, DUI is wrong in any society as it is statistically significantly hurting others. From the last example you can see what my reasoning behind should be illegal/should not be illegal distinction is. If it has statistically significant (relative to it's societal utility) chance of hurting others it should be illegal.

Shooting the loaded gun is not punishable per se, it depends on what outcome firing the gun has. If the bullet misses, you've commited no crime and therefore you should not be punished. However, if the bullet hits me, and I die, you've committed murder and should be punished accordingly.

As for the private roads part, I fail to see how it is even remotely relevant to what we are discussing. The solution to the problem of public roads and public welfare is to abolish them because they're ineffcient and immoral.

Edit: Also, who is to calculate the "societal utility" vs chance of hurting others ratio? Where should the line be drawn? Why should it be drawn at X instead of X+0.5 per cent? I think you quite clearly see that such laws will be arbitrary.
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
September 23 2011 19:51 GMT
#753
On September 24 2011 04:08 Shraft wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2011 03:26 mcc wrote:
Redundancy of competition means that more than one entity is doing the same. And I do not mean the same product, but the same task. Marketing, accounting, even many management positions would be saved in one bigger company compared to two smaller competing companies, especially since some of those positions are existing only because of the need to compete. It is bad because it can be done better. Of course bigger companies(and also government organizations as they do not differ too much) have their own set of problems like corruption, long feedback loops and so on. And in some situations the economies of scale and lack of redundancy are enough to offset the corruption and other ills of big companies/government organizations.

So what you mean is that the economy will be inefficient because many companies will produce the same thing? Are you serious? If there are too many companies in the same business, then the rate of profits in that branch will drop, and the worse companies will either close their firm or continue until they go bankrupt.

Even if what you said is true, how do you propose we remedy it? By regulations?

I specifically noted that I do not mean producing the same thing, in the second sentence. Your response does not relate to what I was talking about. I was saying something quite different.

On September 24 2011 04:08 Shraft wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2011 03:26 mcc wrote:
As for your second paragraph why did you switch from competition vs non-competition to free-market vs government. I was replying specifically to your insistence of competition being always good. It is not like non-government monopoly and free-market are impossibility.

Because competition vs non-competition is the same as free market vs a market regulated by the government.

Nope. You can have situations of no competition in the free market and you can have competition in government controlled parts of economy.

On September 24 2011 04:08 Shraft wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2011 03:26 mcc wrote:
But I will bite even to your point about government. Do you have any evidence that commodity in government endorsed monopoly needs to be more expensive than in free market or are you just repeating your free-market mantra ? I see no reason for it to be so in general.

I am not going to cite endless paragraphs of statistics when all you do is generalise and provide poor reasoning. I suggest you read the book I linked to earlier in the thread if you're interested in learning economics.

Well if you do not have the evidence, ok, good to know. Since you did not even show that "poor reasoning" I will consider that empty name-calling.

On September 24 2011 04:08 Shraft wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2011 03:26 mcc wrote:
I was asking about pointing a loaded gun that has 1/6 chance of hitting you at you and pressing the trigger. Should this be allowed (it is only 1/6 chance that it will actually shoot) , should killing that person in self-defense be allowed ? But anyway you answered what, you did not answer why are those your answers. From what criteria do they follow. They cannot follow from direct/indirect hurt as I pointed out there is no such clear distinction. Any such distinction is quite arbitrary and therefore needs some reasoning behind it. Where do your direct hurt ends and indirect hurt starts ?

Also it is nice that you are against government financed roads, but reality is they mostly are and it is just your wish that they should not be. There is no objective reason why they should be private, so when discussing DUI I am discussing it in the context of the society in question not some imaginary society where governments have nearly no power. As I said previously using steroids in the society where healthcare is public is wrong as it is hurting others, DUI is wrong in any society as it is statistically significantly hurting others. From the last example you can see what my reasoning behind should be illegal/should not be illegal distinction is. If it has statistically significant (relative to it's societal utility) chance of hurting others it should be illegal.

Shooting the loaded gun is not punishable per se, it depends on what outcome firing the gun has. If the bullet misses, you've commited no crime and therefore you should not be punished. However, if the bullet hits me, and I die, you've committed murder and should be punished accordingly.

As for the private roads part, I fail to see how it is even remotely relevant to what we are discussing. The solution to the problem of public roads and public welfare is to abolish them because they're ineffcient and immoral.

Edit: Also, who is to calculate the "societal utility" vs chance of hurting others ratio? Where should the line be drawn? Why should it be drawn at X instead of X+0.5 per cent? I think you quite clearly see that such laws will be arbitrary.

Still no answer to how do you differentiate between directly hurting and indirectly hurting ?

I see no evidence of their inefficiency and they are far from immoral. In any reasonable ethical system they are far from immoral.

In short the ideal point for the line to be drawn is to draw it in the point that primarily minimizes suffering and secondarily maximizes composite utility that is comprised of happiness, social stability and possibly others. Of course in practice approximation is used that is achieved by empirical trying. No other way to determine what works and what does not other than to try it. Of course not random trying but educated guesses.
Talin
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Montenegro10532 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-23 20:56:08
September 23 2011 20:54 GMT
#754
On September 24 2011 00:16 Shraft wrote:
And who are they to decide what's objectively wrong? Perhaps they'll decide that steroids are bad for your health, so they'll prohibit the production and consumption of them. But if I think that the benefits of using steroids outweigh the health hazard, then why can't I use them? As long as I don't hurt anyone else, it should all be fine and dandy.

Basically, it's stupid to have a bunch of guys decide what's in the best interests of everyone.


The whole point is that they don't decide what's in the best interest of everyone individually. They decide what's best and most useful for society as a whole.

What gives you the idea that it should all be fine and dandy as long as you don't "hurt" anybody? Even if you don't hurt anybody directly, you being unhealthy still hurts the society indirectly. You still have responsibilities towards other people and the society.

Moreover, saying you think that the benefits of using steroids outweigh the health hazard is just the same as me saying that I think 2+2 really equals C rather than 4. It's not something you can have an "opinion" on - ANY substances of any sort and effects are analyzed in detail and a fully informed decision is made based on that. Both the damage and potential damage to your health would be considered, as would the real benefits that your body will experience (it's all biology).

If you "disagree" with the decision based on facts, it only means you're willing to potentially jeopardize your health more than the safety standards will allow. This in the huge majority of cases will mean you either don't know what you're doing anyway, that your judgement is somehow impaired, or that you're gambling and hoping you'll win. Whichever it is, it's probably not the best idea to let you make the decision.
Shraft
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden701 Posts
September 23 2011 21:13 GMT
#755
On September 24 2011 04:51 mcc wrote:
Well if you do not have the evidence, ok, good to know. Since you did not even show that "poor reasoning" I will consider that empty name-calling.

Okay, so where's your proof? You don't even provide sound reasoning to back your assertions. Here's a graph that shows how economic growth and freedom are related, and here's an article on why competition is good.

On September 24 2011 04:51 mcc wrote:
I see no evidence of their inefficiency and they are far from immoral. In any reasonable ethical system they are far from immoral.

For evidence that government spending is inefficient/sub-optimal, read Economics in One Lesson. Again, the evidence is there, you only refuse to see it.

I am not going to answer in this thread until you start to actually provide sufficient reasoning and sources on all the bullshit that you're spewing. I have wasted enough of my time slamming my head against the brick wall that is your mind.
Warlock40
Profile Joined September 2011
601 Posts
September 23 2011 21:19 GMT
#756
What gives you the idea that it should all be fine and dandy as long as you don't "hurt" anybody? Even if you don't hurt anybody directly, you being unhealthy still hurts the society indirectly. You still have responsibilities towards other people and the society.


The idea of freedom, I suppose. The whole "you being unhealthy hurts society; therefore, you cannot be unhealthy" is representative of an oppressive regime. As benevolent as it may be, it's still oppressive.

I'm not too big of a fan of pure democracy, but the kind of technocracy that controls people's lives to that extent is too much.
Shraft
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden701 Posts
September 23 2011 21:23 GMT
#757
On September 24 2011 05:54 Talin wrote:
If you "disagree" with the decision based on facts, it only means you're willing to potentially jeopardize your health more than the safety standards will allow. This in the huge majority of cases will mean you either don't know what you're doing anyway, that your judgement is somehow impaired, or that you're gambling and hoping you'll win. Whichever it is, it's probably not the best idea to let you make the decision.

How can you reach said decision by solely relying on facts? If steroids allows me to increase my muscle mass by 20 per cent in one month, but increases the risk of me having a heart attack by 5 per cent, who can decide if the risk is greater than the gain? There is no way to reach that conclusion by solely relying on facts. It is all subjective.
Talin
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Montenegro10532 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-23 21:46:40
September 23 2011 21:29 GMT
#758
On September 24 2011 06:19 Warlock40 wrote:
Show nested quote +
What gives you the idea that it should all be fine and dandy as long as you don't "hurt" anybody? Even if you don't hurt anybody directly, you being unhealthy still hurts the society indirectly. You still have responsibilities towards other people and the society.


The idea of freedom, I suppose. The whole "you being unhealthy hurts society; therefore, you cannot be unhealthy" is representative of an oppressive regime. As benevolent as it may be, it's still oppressive.

I'm not too big of a fan of pure democracy, but the kind of technocracy that controls people's lives to that extent is too much.


The democracies we live in already do control our lives to that extent (hence illegal substances like drugs, limits on alcohol consumption etc).

It's really nothing you don't already experience, it's only the underlying reasoning behind it that doesn't get thrown into your face as much. In general, no modern nation state will knowingly risk the health of its population more than absolutely necessary - all of them want as many "optimal" citizens as possible (at least physically, not so much intellectually unfortunately), for obvious reasons. The only reason why some of the things that shouldn't be legal are legal is because they also depend on keeping people as happy as possible or bad things will happen.

There will always be limits on freedom. How oppressive those limits feel is a matter of perception and comparison. The question is - how many of your non-essential elements of freedom are you willing to give up to contribute to the advancement of your society, or humanity as a whole? Not based on somebody's whim, but based on objective facts.

On September 24 2011 06:23 Shraft wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2011 05:54 Talin wrote:
If you "disagree" with the decision based on facts, it only means you're willing to potentially jeopardize your health more than the safety standards will allow. This in the huge majority of cases will mean you either don't know what you're doing anyway, that your judgement is somehow impaired, or that you're gambling and hoping you'll win. Whichever it is, it's probably not the best idea to let you make the decision.

How can you reach said decision by solely relying on facts? If steroids allows me to increase my muscle mass by 20 per cent in one month, but increases the risk of me having a heart attack by 5 per cent, who can decide if the risk is greater than the gain? There is no way to reach that conclusion by solely relying on facts. It is all subjective.


Consider the following questions: In modern society, how valuable is it to increase your body mass 20 percent in a single month? What does it allow you to do that you couldn't do otherwise? How essential is it (if at all) to what you do and how you live? All of those questions have very objective answers, and answers determine how much of the benefit is real, and how much of it is you only doing it because you like it.

Moreover, let's say you're willing to take that risk anyway because you just feel like it. But in order to allow YOU to take that risk, because law must apply to everyone, we must also allow EVERYONE the freedom to take that risk. Which WILL (statistically, when applied over a larger population) result in deaths of innocent people as a direct consequence. Deaths that would not happen if you were willing to give up the trivial, non-essential benefits you get. Why would the government gamble with lives like that, over something so trivial as well?
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
September 23 2011 22:13 GMT
#759
On September 24 2011 06:13 Shraft wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2011 04:51 mcc wrote:
Well if you do not have the evidence, ok, good to know. Since you did not even show that "poor reasoning" I will consider that empty name-calling.

Okay, so where's your proof? You don't even provide sound reasoning to back your assertions. Here's a graph that shows how economic growth and freedom are related, and here's an article on why competition is good.

My proof of what ? If you have problem with one of my statement that have burden of proof, quote it and ask for the evidence/proof. But frankly I made only few and very weak statements compared to you who made plenty of strong statements that have much more burden of proof than mine and you provided no evidence for any of your absolute and definitive statements that I reacted to in the beginning.

Your first link is no evidence of what we were talking about, read what I asked evidence for and read your link, they do not match. Seeing as you link to mises.org I am starting to suspect you actually are going to just post loosely related walls of text as is usual for people that frequent that site (experience from previous threads on TL). The one about competition is no evidence, it is an argumentative essay. I also am not arguing with Hayek, I am arguing with you. If you want to use his arguments, you can, but in your own words and pick only the parts that are actually relevant to what we are discussing.

On September 24 2011 06:13 Shraft wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2011 04:51 mcc wrote:
I see no evidence of their inefficiency and they are far from immoral. In any reasonable ethical system they are far from immoral.

For evidence that government spending is inefficient/sub-optimal, read Economics in One Lesson. Again, the evidence is there, you only refuse to see it.

I am not going to answer in this thread until you start to actually provide sufficient reasoning and sources on all the bullshit that you're spewing. I have wasted enough of my time slamming my head against the brick wall that is your mind.

When posting evidence that is in a book, post page when the data in question can be found. I am not going to read possibly useless books just so I can find something that is your burden to provide.

If you require evidence for my statements, quote them and do so. As for reasoning, compared to you I provided plenty of such whereas you provided only absolute statements backed up by absolutely nothing. But I expect you to just employ broken record discussion tactics and repeat your statements over and over.
Shraft
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden701 Posts
September 23 2011 22:23 GMT
#760
On September 24 2011 06:29 Talin wrote:
Consider the following questions: In modern society, how valuable is it to increase your body mass 20 percent in a single month? What does it allow you to do that you couldn't do otherwise? How essential is it (if at all) to what you do and how you live? All of those questions have very objective answers, and answers determine how much of the benefit is real, and how much of it is you only doing it because you like it.


Doing something because I like it = doing something because I (subjectively) value the gains of the action over the eventual losses. There is no way whatsoever for you to define the "real" or objective value in something. AS I SAID, it can't be defined by an objective standard.
Shraft
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden701 Posts
September 23 2011 22:47 GMT
#761
Mcc, I am done arguing with you. You asked for sources and proof, and when I provide them, you refuse to read them and demand I type it out in my own words. You are intellectually dishonest and from here on out I will just pretend that you don't exist. When and if you post something of relevance, I might consider replying to you again.
DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5079 Posts
September 24 2011 00:34 GMT
#762
mcc,

Redundancy of competition is a driver of innovation;

And, if you don't have redundancy of competition, you have redundancy of bureaucracy. Which is the same thing, but even less efficient with its resources.
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
doublethreat
Profile Joined September 2011
12 Posts
September 24 2011 00:36 GMT
#763
Well a lot of systems can function if there is no or minimal corruption. Its not about the system its about the people!
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
September 24 2011 09:10 GMT
#764
On September 24 2011 07:47 Shraft wrote:
Mcc, I am done arguing with you. You asked for sources and proof, and when I provide them, you refuse to read them and demand I type it out in my own words. You are intellectually dishonest and from here on out I will just pretend that you don't exist. When and if you post something of relevance, I might consider replying to you again.

You did not provide evidence, you provided evidence for something we did not discuss(your first link), then you provided an essay, which is not evidence. Try to differentiate between argument and evidence. Just because Hayek says something it is not an evidence it is an argument and using someone elses argument to support your argument and pretending it is evidence is actually intellectually dishonest. This is the only case (of the three) I wanted you to use your words, as that is how discussions and debates are done, quoting only partially related walls of text is bad debating practice. Third link was to a book that supposedly contains evidence, again it is bad debating practice to point to a book and go : "there is evidence there, go find it". No you are the one that has to provide exact place in the book where the evidence is.

And your reply that claims anyone who does not conform to your warped standards of discussion, because I refuse to play your game of bad debating, is intellectually dishonest was expected. This "lalala, if I ignore the reality and claim everyone else is bad and dishonest I can live in my virtual misesian paradise forever" is pretty standard for libertarians of your kind. It is called "wall of ignorance"
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-24 09:38:05
September 24 2011 09:33 GMT
#765
On September 24 2011 09:34 DeepElemBlues wrote:
mcc,

Redundancy of competition is a driver of innovation;

And, if you don't have redundancy of competition, you have redundancy of bureaucracy. Which is the same thing, but even less efficient with its resources.

Some of the redundancy of competition might be driver of some innovation, but that would be as far as I would go. A lot of that redundancy has no other sense than duplication of things that bigger organization can do more efficiently as it can employ economies of scale. A lot of them can be outsourced to some specialized provider that can do that, for example accounting, marketing,... but not all.

Bureaucracy is present in every organization that has more than let's say 20 people. Redundancy of bureaucracy can be present everywhere. The reasons can be bad organization, corruption, .... In the free market there is a drive to minimize this redundancy through competition. That does not mean it is not present, it just means that it is being minimized slowly(more or less) over time for as long as the competition is reasonably close to ideal, and that is not guaranteed in reality.

In government organizations, corruption and lack of motivation to get rid of it is the main source of the redundancy. The only motivation is public scrutiny and that is highly dependent on the country and region in question. But that does not prevent government organization in some areas of economy and some places to be more efficient than competition driven free market. It just requires good level of public scrutiny, low level of corruption (all relative to the redundancy of competition in the particular area) for the organization to be more effective. It is quite possible since there is a gap between "ideal" efficiency and efficiency of the free market in real-life conditions and in particular circumstances you can get into that gap with other economical arrangements than free-market.

To reiterate bureaucracy is not something unique in government organizations, it is a feature of all but the smallest organizations.

EDIT: There are also ethical considerations of the members of the organization that are motivation to lower the corruption, but I ignored them as direct motivation and included them instead in the geographical region part of the argument.
fant0m
Profile Joined May 2010
964 Posts
September 24 2011 09:40 GMT
#766
Sounds great in concept, would be very hard to implement unless there was a super-genius dictator already in place.

If you want to iron out the problems with society, starting from a democracy is NEVER going to work.

The ideal government is an all-powerful, all-knowing benevolent robot dictator.
Shraft
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden701 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-24 11:15:02
September 24 2011 10:24 GMT
#767
On September 24 2011 00:58 mcc wrote:
No free market does not in general lead to the most efficient economy. Only if you define efficiency to fit what you are trying to prove does it hold true. Competition is redundancy, that might be good or bad depending on circumstances. Competition is definitely not good in all cases.

As long as you do not hurt anyone else is extremely continuous concept. What if your use of steroids hurts your loved ones ? Is it hurting anyone or not ? In societies the concept of hurting someone else is much more broad than most people acknowledge and varies from one society to another. For example in society with public healthcare your overuse of steroids hurts other people, in some other it might not.

But no matter where we draw the line objectively wrong can be only something that hurts other people, so your objection is invalid. Things that you do that do not hurt other people cannot be objectively wrong for the purpose of policy decisions.

Provide me with proof, please.
On September 24 2011 02:17 mcc wrote:
No it might be also bad for a whole society. There are situations where redundancy introduced by the competition is too big compared to gains. It seems to me that it is you who is talking about a subset of the population, specifically the consumers of the product in question, whereas I talk about society as a whole and that is the difference.

But even if I considered it from the point of view of the consumers, competition might lead to situations (unlikely ones but possible) where the product is more expensive then it would be in monopoly. Economies of scale and all that.

There is no clear distinction between directly and indirectly hurting someone. It is continuum not discrete.

As for your examples, what if someone puts one round into a revolver and then randomly spins it, points at you and "shoots". Should this act be allowed ? There is only (for example) 1/6 chance he will kill you. Similarly with DUI. The point is there is no such thing as clear distinction between direct and indirect hurt. Of course in practice we pick some point, but the reasoning for picking that point is not following from your simplistic criteria. You need more complex reasoning.

Prove it.
On September 24 2011 03:26 mcc wrote:
Redundancy of competition means that more than one entity is doing the same. And I do not mean the same product, but the same task. Marketing, accounting, even many management positions would be saved in one bigger company compared to two smaller competing companies, especially since some of those positions are existing only because of the need to compete. It is bad because it can be done better. Of course bigger companies(and also government organizations as they do not differ too much) have their own set of problems like corruption, long feedback loops and so on. And in some situations the economies of scale and lack of redundancy are enough to offset the corruption and other ills of big companies/government organizations.

Point me to one example where this has been solved by a better way than on a free market.

I too can play the part of the idiot who just demands references and statistics without putting any effort into my own posts.
Gaga
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany433 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-24 11:52:39
September 24 2011 11:49 GMT
#768
the problem of no competiotion is it's weakness to fail through human behaviour. Without competition there is much less enforcement to correct failures or inefficiencies.

even in a technocraty people will have to enforce stuff.

Cuz Nobody would really want to live in a world dictated by machines, would they ?



DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5079 Posts
September 24 2011 16:16 GMT
#769
Some of the redundancy of competition might be driver of some innovation, but that would be as far as I would go. A lot of that redundancy has no other sense than duplication of things that bigger organization can do more efficiently as it can employ economies of scale. A lot of them can be outsourced to some specialized provider that can do that, for example accounting, marketing,... but not all.


It isn't necessarily true that a bigger organization can employ economies of scale. It's a general assumption and a good one, but still.

Also, the key feature of the internet as far as commerce goes is that it enables smaller organizations to operate at a level of efficiency that would presumably have taken a large organization in the past.

As for what you say about bureaucracy that is true, unfortunately it is mostly a smokescreen. Government bureaucracies are inferior to private ones, and when private ones are just as bad, it is usually because of their extensive connections to government, as their failure in the past was not really a concern thanks to the beneficence of public contracts and these days thanks to the beneficence of bailouts.
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
Tzeval
Profile Joined July 2011
44 Posts
September 24 2011 19:57 GMT
#770
For a working Technocracy you'd have to be able to predict human behavior on a much much better level.
For example take alcohl which is harmful to society. One can't say how humans will react if it is prohibited. Therefore on can't really say that prohibiting it is better then leaving it as it is. This problem you face with nearly every controversial topic.
Many things politics face are problems that are elements of NP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NP-complete). Therefore one can say in many cases that the found solution was crap (or in a few faces one can say that it is good) but there is not a mathematical way to determine a good solution in finite time. Every arm of Science boils down to math and physics (which boils down to 90% math and 10% basic monitoring). A Technocracy that can't determine it's answers in a correct scientific way loses it's basis. The only way arround the human behavior problem is the ability to limit behavior, but then we'd have a Despotie, which has the ability to get way worse (See dictatorships and the middle ages for "prove" ).

If you have problem's following the point try to understand http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NP-complete it's the main point. Maybe the quantum computer will change this in the future but i'm not deep enough in the topic to say how they work with NP-Problems.
Talin
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Montenegro10532 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-29 15:00:32
September 29 2011 14:59 GMT
#771
On September 24 2011 07:23 Shraft wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2011 06:29 Talin wrote:
Consider the following questions: In modern society, how valuable is it to increase your body mass 20 percent in a single month? What does it allow you to do that you couldn't do otherwise? How essential is it (if at all) to what you do and how you live? All of those questions have very objective answers, and answers determine how much of the benefit is real, and how much of it is you only doing it because you like it.


Doing something because I like it = doing something because I (subjectively) value the gains of the action over the eventual losses. There is no way whatsoever for you to define the "real" or objective value in something. AS I SAID, it can't be defined by an objective standard.


Of course it can, and you aren't really arguing the opposite either, you're only giving a blank statement of how "it can't be done", while I explained exactly how and why it can be.

The point is that what you subjectively value isn't relevant, because the law is the same for everyone, and so are the consequences. You admitted the substance you wish to use increases the risk of heart attack by 5%. It's actually really easy and simple to calculate to what extent legalizing such a substance is a bad idea. It's just maths.

Eliminating subjectivity in favor of objectivity is the whole point. You can't be willingly "subjective" when there is relevant objective information available - you can either accept the facts or be wrong (to an extent). I see no reason that the society should allow you to be wrong, especially on something that affects and endangers lives of other people as well.
Coraz
Profile Joined May 2010
United States252 Posts
September 29 2011 16:58 GMT
#772
Yes a technocracy could be better if you like being enslaved by lucifer worshipping new world order globalists

democracy is pretty horrible as well

I'll stick to constitutional republic
Dr. Stan is my hero ((: - http://www.soundwaves2000.com/radio_liberty/
bonifaceviii
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada2890 Posts
November 16 2011 16:28 GMT
#773
The Economist just wrote a lengthy article on technocracy and why a bunch of economists are being recruited to run Euro-countries. It's very interesting, because it acknowledges that European and American democracy is currently strained and can't actually get what needs to be done done in its current form.

"What needs to be done", of course, is different in everyone's eyes, but technocrats have their ideas and putting them in charge gets them done at least.

Technocrats and Democracy: Have PhD, Will Govern
+ Show Spoiler +
THE markets first welcomed, then worried about the appointment of academic economists as prime ministers of Greece and Italy. Much political commentary traced the same trajectory. But the technocratic response to the euro’s problems is only part of a wider reaction to the financial and economic crisis: in many countries, the crisis has paralysed significant parts of the political system, leading to innovations and improvisations that try to short-circuit or patch up the normal working of democracy.

Perhaps the best example of this is the so-called “super committee” in the United States. Normally, all fiscal decisions are made by Congress, with the approval of the president. But by November 23rd, a special committee made up of three Democrats and three Republicans from each house of Congress, has to slice a mammoth $1.5 trillion off the budget deficit over ten years. Congress must then vote on whatever the super committee proposes—but may only accept or reject the plan as a whole. It may not amend the plan or vote on individual items, as is usual. And if Congress rejects the package, or the super-committee fails to come up with one, then the $1.5 trillion of cuts will be imposed automatically. American politicians, despairing of their inability to reduce the deficit in normal ways, have put a gun to their own heads. There have been partial precedents in American history but nothing quite like this.

In Europe, meanwhile, technocratic prime ministers are only the highest-ranking experts being recruited to help balance budgets and reform economies. Italy not only has an economics professor as prime minister (Mario Monti), it has also agreed that the IMF should scrutinise its reform programme. Greece has accepted that a troika of the IMF, European Central Bank and European Commission (the European Union’s glorified civil service) should supervise its austerity measures. So have Ireland and Portugal. Spain is an especially revealing case. On the face of it, its democracy is working as usual. The country is due to hold an election on November 20th and, if the polls are correct, the conservative Popular Party will unseat the ruling Socialists. Yet at the same time, the current government has agreed upon a series of economic targets with the European Commission, and in practice the PP’s leader, Mariano Rajoy, will have to take these targets as a guide to policy, even if he dislikes them (which, admittedly, he doesn’t).

Ordinarily, democracies seek public support for the policies they pursue and have various ways of mobilising that support, of which elections are the most important. But there are special reasons why the ordinary processes of mobilising the public should be strained at the moment. In euro-zone countries, the currency itself is unpopular. According to a recent poll by the German Marshall Fund, a think tank, 53% of people in countries that use the euro think the single currency has been bad for their national economy, against only 40% who think it has been a net plus. It is hard to rally the public behind austerity programmes at the best of times; even harder to solicit their support for measures to bolster a currency they do not like. Unsurprisingly, politicians have sent for outsiders to stiffen their resolve—and now have someone else to blame for the austerity measures they are imposing.

The special factor in America is the dysfunctionality of the political system. The past decade or so has seen a growing use of delaying tactics in Congress—such as the filibuster and so-called “hold” on appointments, so that decisions that were once largely formal or administrative have become mired in politicised controversy. This is the opposite of the problem in Europe, where the emergence of technocrats is supposed to make decision-making less partisan. But it is still a problem, as was seen in the disastrous wrangle over raising the national debt ceiling—an argument which ended in the downgrade of American sovereign debt. House Republicans have said they will not compromise with the president. But since the American political system requires a measure of compromise to work (and since the Republicans have a majority in the House of Representatives), parts of the legislative processes have almost seized up. This is likely to get worse during election year.

America and Europe share a common problem: the economic and financial crisis has discredited mainstream politicians. The right is popularly seen as the party of the rich, too close to unpopular bankers, and responsible for the financial deregulation of the 1980s which, on some accounts, was the source of all the trouble. But the left, which might have expected to have benefited from a capitalist meltdown, is no better off. Centre-left governments, at least in Britain and America, are also compromised by their earlier friendliness to finance and the left is seen as having been profligate, running up the debts that austerity is now needed to rein in. The result is that whereas in the early years of the crisis, the left was doing better in America and the right better in Europe (an echo of the 1930s), now there seems no pattern, except growing opposition to incumbents.

The Democrats won in America in 2008, while conservatives won in Britain, Sweden and the Netherlands in 2010. But America’s forthcoming elections are anyone’s guess. By most opinion polls, the favourability ratings for both big American parties, as well as for Congress, have reached record lows while opposition to congressional incumbents are at all-time highs (and rising). In Europe this year, the left won the Danish election and the French Socialists are ahead of the incumbent president, but the Spanish right is ahead of the ruling Socialists.

Exhaustion with the normal process of party politics explains why technocrats are being brought in. Usually, democracies are better at dealing with financial crises than autocracies because they are seen as fair. Elected politicians can distribute the pain of austerity without losing legitimacy because people (it is hoped) will accept tough reforms that are seen as legitimate. But if all the main parties are complicit in causing a crisis, the public may not accept solutions from any of them. Then, the system needs to find alternatives unblemished by the disastrous decisions of the past-and technocrats fit the bill.

But therein lies a danger. Almost by definition, technocrats command respect rather than popularity: they tend especially to drive the far left and right further to the extremes. And at the moment, the only politicians who are unquestionably thriving are those outside the mainstream already. Gerd Wilders’s populist Freedom party leapt to third in the Dutch election in 2010 and is now running second in the polls. Its Austrian equivalent, also called the Freedom party, is running neck and neck with the ruling party, while France’s National Front stands to do well in next year’s elections. As always, America is different. But the rise of the Tea Party Movement and the Occupy Wall Street demonstrations suggests that frustration with established parties is a growing force there, too. The rise of the “occupy” crowd, evicted from their Zucotti park site in New York in the early hours of November 15th, is especially important because its members are motivated by concern about social and income inequalities.

Technocrats may be good at saying how much pain a country must endure, how to make its debt level sustainable or how to solve a financial crisis. But they are not so good at working out how pain is to be distributed, whether to raise taxes or cut spending on this or that group, and what the income-distribution effects of their policies are. Those are political questions, not technocratic ones. And they will not go away just because a technocrat has been made prime minister.
Stay a while and listen || http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=354018
Proko
Profile Joined February 2011
United States1022 Posts
November 16 2011 16:32 GMT
#774
The real problem is choosing the people who will be your technocrats and then allocating the money. Our government has some technocratic attributes already (portions of the cabinet etc.).

Perhaps we should simply expand some of the technocratic aspects of our government, populate parts of senate and house committees with actual skilled informed professionals.
Caster duos should compliment each others' strengths. "You look very handsome today, Tasteless."
Talin
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Montenegro10532 Posts
November 16 2011 16:49 GMT
#775
Economists aren't exactly what I had in mind when I think of technocracy. -_-
Krikkitone
Profile Joined April 2009
United States1451 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-16 16:59:20
November 16 2011 16:50 GMT
#776
On November 17 2011 01:32 Proko wrote:
The real problem is choosing the people who will be your technocrats and then allocating the money. Our government has some technocratic attributes already (portions of the cabinet etc.).

Perhaps we should simply expand some of the technocratic aspects of our government, populate parts of senate and house committees with actual skilled informed professionals.


As a previous poster posted, democracy= bad, technocracy=bad, constitutional republic=good (depending on the constitution).

Democracy is bad because the average voter is stupid (partially because no one has the time to become 'smart' on all aspects of government)

Technocracy is bad because the average human being (smart or not) is selfish (partially because no one has the capacity to truly care about more than a few dozen other people)

So having a constitution that limits the ability of the average voter to make governmental decisions As well as limiting the ability of the elite to make governmental decisions is ideal.

Now better ways to balance the means of making governmental decisions may be needed, ie slightly more elite power/less people power. However, tilting it way to far in either direction won't work for a group of more than a small town. (Athens had a few citizens, and still had serious problems, and Technocrats won't Really care about all the people in a large city.)


The point is that what you subjectively value isn't relevant, because the law is the same for everyone, and so are the consequences. You admitted the substance you wish to use increases the risk of heart attack by 5%. It's actually really easy and simple to calculate to what extent legalizing such a substance is a bad idea. It's just maths.

Eliminating subjectivity in favor of objectivity is the whole point. You can't be willingly "subjective" when there is relevant objective information available - you can either accept the facts or be wrong (to an extent). I see no reason that the society should allow you to be wrong, especially on something that affects and endangers lives of other people as well.


That's an excellent example...a substance that gives a 5% chance of a lethal heart attack... lets say it also ensured that the remainder of your life you would be totally happy, and able to form deep meaningful relationships for the next 20 years.

Well how much happiness is worth a 5% chance of death? what if it was 0.5% or 0.05% chances?
Those are subjective values, how much "your life" is worth (how much money would it take to get you to walk into certain death)? how much "your happiness" is worth?
Now if it is a 5% chance of a lethal heart attack v. but reduces your chances of having a lethat stroke by 6% with no other side effects, then you can just play the numbers. Otherwise it is totally subjective.
Proko
Profile Joined February 2011
United States1022 Posts
November 16 2011 16:59 GMT
#777
On November 17 2011 01:50 Krikkitone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 17 2011 01:32 Proko wrote:
The real problem is choosing the people who will be your technocrats and then allocating the money. Our government has some technocratic attributes already (portions of the cabinet etc.).

Perhaps we should simply expand some of the technocratic aspects of our government, populate parts of senate and house committees with actual skilled informed professionals.



Now better ways to balance the means of making governmental decisions may be needed, ie slightly more elite power/less people power. However, tilting it way to far in either direction won't work for a group of more than a small town. (Athens had a few citizens, and still had serious problems, and Technocrats won't Really care about all the people in a large city.)


My point is that right now, the inefficiency in some of our legistlative committees could be helped by drawing more on the knowledge of experts.
Caster duos should compliment each others' strengths. "You look very handsome today, Tasteless."
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
November 16 2011 17:15 GMT
#778
On September 24 2011 19:24 Shraft wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2011 00:58 mcc wrote:
No free market does not in general lead to the most efficient economy. Only if you define efficiency to fit what you are trying to prove does it hold true. Competition is redundancy, that might be good or bad depending on circumstances. Competition is definitely not good in all cases.

As long as you do not hurt anyone else is extremely continuous concept. What if your use of steroids hurts your loved ones ? Is it hurting anyone or not ? In societies the concept of hurting someone else is much more broad than most people acknowledge and varies from one society to another. For example in society with public healthcare your overuse of steroids hurts other people, in some other it might not.

But no matter where we draw the line objectively wrong can be only something that hurts other people, so your objection is invalid. Things that you do that do not hurt other people cannot be objectively wrong for the purpose of policy decisions.

Provide me with proof, please.
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2011 02:17 mcc wrote:
No it might be also bad for a whole society. There are situations where redundancy introduced by the competition is too big compared to gains. It seems to me that it is you who is talking about a subset of the population, specifically the consumers of the product in question, whereas I talk about society as a whole and that is the difference.

But even if I considered it from the point of view of the consumers, competition might lead to situations (unlikely ones but possible) where the product is more expensive then it would be in monopoly. Economies of scale and all that.

There is no clear distinction between directly and indirectly hurting someone. It is continuum not discrete.

As for your examples, what if someone puts one round into a revolver and then randomly spins it, points at you and "shoots". Should this act be allowed ? There is only (for example) 1/6 chance he will kill you. Similarly with DUI. The point is there is no such thing as clear distinction between direct and indirect hurt. Of course in practice we pick some point, but the reasoning for picking that point is not following from your simplistic criteria. You need more complex reasoning.

Prove it.
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2011 03:26 mcc wrote:
Redundancy of competition means that more than one entity is doing the same. And I do not mean the same product, but the same task. Marketing, accounting, even many management positions would be saved in one bigger company compared to two smaller competing companies, especially since some of those positions are existing only because of the need to compete. It is bad because it can be done better. Of course bigger companies(and also government organizations as they do not differ too much) have their own set of problems like corruption, long feedback loops and so on. And in some situations the economies of scale and lack of redundancy are enough to offset the corruption and other ills of big companies/government organizations.

Point me to one example where this has been solved by a better way than on a free market.

I too can play the part of the idiot who just demands references and statistics without putting any effort into my own posts.

Free market is good when you have a comparative advantage (from Smith to Ricardo, same with the HOS, Heckser Ohlin Samuelson theory in essence). Protectionnism can help an industrie to grow, and it is sometime needed, this has been defended by Hamilton and Stuart Mill back in their time and used in America in 1830 (Tariff of 1828) and in 1930 with the Smoot Hawley Tarrif Act (and you can see the same protectionism in most countries France, UK, Germany).
And that is just an exemple, freedom is not always the best choice economically... he is right.

Schumpeter used to say that competition does not kill competition... he is wrong, everything prove that competition lead to oligopoly. (see multinationalisation)

Just to explain you man, the free market does not exist, it will never exist, it's a theory, a myth. In fact, in the world you are living in right now, there are still a lot of protection, but you cannot see them - from volontary restriction of exportation (heavily used in the US to prevent Japan from importing too much cars) to different use of administrativ barrier. The protection of today does in fact cost more to our society than the old ones (taxs).
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
Gaga
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany433 Posts
November 16 2011 17:22 GMT
#779
Technocracy just gettin implemented in Italy

Facing Crisis, Technocrats Take Charge in Italy

Shraft
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden701 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-16 18:35:09
November 16 2011 17:39 GMT
#780
On September 29 2011 23:59 Talin wrote:
+ Show Spoiler [Incoherent nonsense] +
Of course it can, and you aren't really arguing the opposite either, you're only giving a blank statement of how "it can't be done", while I explained exactly how and why it can be.

The point is that what you subjectively value isn't relevant, because the law is the same for everyone, and so are the consequences. You admitted the substance you wish to use increases the risk of heart attack by 5%. It's actually really easy and simple to calculate to what extent legalizing such a substance is a bad idea. It's just maths.

Eliminating subjectivity in favor of objectivity is the whole point. You can't be willingly "subjective" when there is relevant objective information available - you can either accept the facts or be wrong (to an extent). I see no reason that the society should allow you to be wrong, especially on something that affects and endangers lives of other people as well.


The point here is that eliminating subjectivity in favour of objectivity is impossible. Value is in the eye of the beholder. (You can read more on this in Theory of Money and Credit (Chapter 2, page 38) by Mises. It can be found here.) There is no way to establish the value of something without someone evaluating it. Is that so fucking hard to get?
Signet
Profile Joined March 2007
United States1718 Posts
November 16 2011 19:17 GMT
#781
On November 17 2011 02:22 Gaga wrote:
Technocracy just gettin implemented in Italy

Facing Crisis, Technocrats Take Charge in Italy


This is going to be interesting to watch. Good luck, Italians.
DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5079 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-16 19:28:54
November 16 2011 19:27 GMT
#782
That is not a technocracy... that is a national unity government calling itself "technocratic." Sure Mario is filling his cabinet with "technocrats" but the true power still resides in the parliamentary system.

It's also a bit of a last gasp to keep the Italian people from giving up on their government entirely, after 17 years of Silvio "Playboy Extraordinaire" Berlusconi either being PM or the real power behind the PM, it's not surprising that most Italians think their government is just crap period. Calling the new government technocratic in nature is a way to get the public to give the new leaders a chance.
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
Gaga
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany433 Posts
November 16 2011 19:38 GMT
#783
On November 17 2011 04:27 DeepElemBlues wrote:
That is not a technocracy... that is a national unity government calling itself "technocratic." Sure Mario is filling his cabinet with "technocrats" but the true power still resides in the parliamentary system.

It's also a bit of a last gasp to keep the Italian people from giving up on their government entirely, after 17 years of Silvio "Playboy Extraordinaire" Berlusconi either being PM or the real power behind the PM, it's not surprising that most Italians think their government is just crap period. Calling the new government technocratic in nature is a way to get the public to give the new leaders a chance.


ofc it's not a real technocracy... it was more of a joke .. thats the smily for.

Shraft
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden701 Posts
November 16 2011 23:11 GMT
#784
On November 17 2011 02:15 WhiteDog wrote:
Free market is good when you have a comparative advantage (from Smith to Ricardo, same with the HOS, Heckser Ohlin Samuelson theory in essence). Protectionnism can help an industrie to grow, and it is sometime needed, this has been defended by Hamilton and Stuart Mill back in their time and used in America in 1830 (Tariff of 1828) and in 1930 with the Smoot Hawley Tarrif Act (and you can see the same protectionism in most countries France, UK, Germany).
And that is just an exemple, freedom is not always the best choice economically... he is right.

Schumpeter used to say that competition does not kill competition... he is wrong, everything prove that competition lead to oligopoly. (see multinationalisation)

No.
On November 17 2011 02:15 WhiteDog wrote:
Just to explain you man, the free market does not exist, it will never exist, it's a theory, a myth. In fact, in the world you are living in right now, there are still a lot of protection, but you cannot see them - from volontary restriction of exportation (heavily used in the US to prevent Japan from importing too much cars) to different use of administrativ barrier. The protection of today does in fact cost more to our society than the old ones (taxs).

Lol.
Chronopolis
Profile Joined April 2009
Canada1484 Posts
December 11 2011 06:35 GMT
#785
I know this is a necrobump, but a few months ago this thread piqued my interests enough so that I ended up writing my term paper (1500 words) on Technocracy (whathasTLdoneforyou.gif). So I'd thought I share as pretty much my actual two cents, lest anyone find it interesting.
Essay:
liberal
Profile Joined November 2011
1116 Posts
December 11 2011 06:46 GMT
#786
I can't decide what's worse: Giving control of a country to a populace which doesn't know how to properly run a country, or giving control to an elite who have the delusional belief that they know the best way to run the country.

Actually, I can decide. The latter is certainly worse.

In my opinion, the key to a well run country eventually boils down to a well written constitution. It's important to restrict the ability of stupid people to mess things up.
RabidAnubis
Profile Joined March 2011
United States18 Posts
December 11 2011 06:51 GMT
#787
Doesn't the president already have advisors? Or no?

Also, I wouldn't enjoy having my life bossed around for me.

In short, if the techno doctor said it was bad to eat meat and drink beer, should we stop? It's better to live a slightly shorter well lived life than a long boring one imo.
"I Came, I saw, I conquered." -Julius Caesar
Flamingo777
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1190 Posts
December 11 2011 06:57 GMT
#788
Regardless of whether or not it's better than a democracy, it's a form of elitism. As such, you are comparing a subsection of Elitism with Democracy, which is flawed. Your argument needs to either be Elitism vs Democracy (The general principle of political systems), or a Technocracy vs a Democratic Republic. I'm saying this assuming you are trying to compare a potential Technocratic system with American Democracy.
Chronopolis
Profile Joined April 2009
Canada1484 Posts
December 11 2011 06:58 GMT
#789
On December 11 2011 15:46 liberal wrote:
I can't decide what's worse: Giving control of a country to a populace which doesn't know how to properly run a country, or giving control to an elite who have the delusional belief that they know the best way to run the country.

Actually, I can decide. The latter is certainly worse.

In my opinion, the key to a well run country eventually boils down to a well written constitution. It's important to restrict the ability of stupid people to mess things up.

I believe it's more like a public being manipulated by elites (only in political power, not elites in any other measure) who instead of having the delusional belief that they know the best way to run the country, just don't give a shit and are all in it for self interests. And it's that constitution that's being skirted around by those 'elites'.
Chimpalimp
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1135 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-11 07:29:04
December 11 2011 07:27 GMT
#790
On December 11 2011 15:46 liberal wrote:
I can't decide what's worse: Giving control of a country to a populace which doesn't know how to properly run a country, or giving control to an elite who have the delusional belief that they know the best way to run the country.

Actually, I can decide. The latter is certainly worse.

In my opinion, the key to a well run country eventually boils down to a well written constitution. It's important to restrict the ability of stupid people to mess things up.


Pretty sure those two choices are one in the same. If you actually think that the voters are running the country, you should look at the United States government. Its extremely inefficient at getting anything that matters done, but highly motivated to approve special interests of said "elite."

I think a technocracy is as good in theory as just about any type of government, it depends on who is running the show, not what they represent. You can just as likely have a corrupt scientist as you can have a corrupt anything, those who seek power generally shouldn't have it. However, I do honestly believe that engineers, scientists, and etc. would run a country a hell of a lot better than the politicians and the ultra rich.
I like money. You like money too? We should hang out.
Normal
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 9h 34m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
JuggernautJason171
Livibee 89
CosmosSc2 63
Nina 18
RuFF_SC2 8
Dota 2
monkeys_forever1016
NeuroSwarm134
canceldota76
League of Legends
Grubby4440
Trikslyr71
Super Smash Bros
AZ_Axe127
Other Games
tarik_tv21187
summit1g12973
shahzam585
C9.Mang0183
ViBE163
Skadoodle132
PPMD39
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1560
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 69
• RyuSc2 40
• davetesta39
• sitaska32
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21275
League of Legends
• TFBlade538
Upcoming Events
CranKy Ducklings
9h 34m
Epic.LAN
11h 34m
CSO Contender
16h 34m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 9h
Online Event
1d 15h
Esports World Cup
3 days
ByuN vs Astrea
Lambo vs HeRoMaRinE
Clem vs TBD
Solar vs Zoun
SHIN vs Reynor
Maru vs TriGGeR
herO vs Lancer
Cure vs ShoWTimE
Esports World Cup
4 days
Esports World Cup
5 days
Esports World Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

BSL 2v2 Season 3
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
CSL Xiamen Invitational
2025 ACS Season 2
Championship of Russia 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.