EPTThe US debt (proper debate) - Page 23
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BestZergOnEast
Canada358 Posts
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domovoi
United States1478 Posts
On July 27 2011 02:30 BlackFlag wrote: STOP LYING! I nowhere in this thread adcovated government monolopy. Or could you maybe show me the part where I am in favor of government monopoly? How're you going to form an anti-capitalist society if you allow capitalists? | ||
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DetriusXii
Canada156 Posts
On July 27 2011 02:10 BestZergOnEast wrote: Yeah, but without private ownership of the means of production no one really gives a fuck to go out and invent something, since they don't get any benefit from doing so. In fact they would probably get punished for slacking off work if they attempted to invent something, since without private property you need a state to force people to do things or they don't get done. There you go. | ||
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domovoi
United States1478 Posts
On July 27 2011 02:20 DetriusXii wrote: You said, "without private property, no one gives a fuck to go out and do stuff". But people in Open Source communities do give a fuck and do stuff. This is a contradiction. Your initial assumption is wrong. OSS licenses like the GPL require a strong copyright regime to be of any use. They are not releasing their software into the public domain, that's for sure. | ||
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BestZergOnEast
Canada358 Posts
is not quite the same as " without private ownership of the means of production no one really gives a fuck to go out and invent something" now is it? Now it is true that open source programmers do go out and invent things. It's also true that they live in a society with private ownership of the means of production. | ||
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BlackFlag
499 Posts
On July 27 2011 02:28 domovoi wrote: Talk about logic fail. 1) You say: open, democratic anti-capitalist society would be better. 2) I say: all open, democratic societies have been capitalist, moreover all anti-capitalist societies have been totalitarian. So no reason to think a democratic, anti-capitalist society is possible. 3) You say: but some capitalist societies were totalitarian! Do you see the logical fallacy? read again I said that there were "relativly" (for the time) open societies before capitalism (which were not anti-capitalist, because that didn't exist for that time). What do you think where the technology that leads to our modern live came from? There are also modern examples, but they always got crushed by outside influence within a relativly short time, because they were deemed a threat. | ||
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BestZergOnEast
Canada358 Posts
OSS licenses like the GPL require a strong copyright regime to be of any use. hmm? | ||
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BestZergOnEast
Canada358 Posts
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BlackFlag
499 Posts
On July 27 2011 02:31 domovoi wrote: How're you going to form an anti-capitalist society if you allow capitalists? I myself am going to create no society by myself, because I am not a dictator and I reject to force my views on others. Also your question is rather naive because it doesn't work that way. | ||
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BlackFlag
499 Posts
On July 27 2011 02:36 BestZergOnEast wrote: yeah, like the modern example of the spanish anarchists, who in the spirit of a free and open democratic society slaughtered thousands for their political beliefs. I dont want too. You're too biased to talk with you about that theme. | ||
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domovoi
United States1478 Posts
On July 27 2011 02:34 BlackFlag wrote: read again I said that there were "relativly" (for the time) open societies before capitalism (which were not anti-capitalist, because that didn't exist for that time). What do you think where the technology that leads to our modern live came from? Capitalism has always existed, even in pre-agricultural societies. There are also modern examples, but they always got crushed by outside influence within a relativly short time, because they were deemed a threat. Name a few then. Show me some examples of successful open, democratic, anti-capitalist societies. | ||
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DetriusXii
Canada156 Posts
On July 27 2011 02:33 domovoi wrote: OSS licenses like the GPL require a strong copyright regime to be of any use. They are not releasing their software into the public domain, that's for sure. It's because they don't want someone else to later to steal the property, patent it, claim it as their own, and shut down future work. The work is still being done for free without direct monetary incentive. it doesn't defeat the argument that collective work is being performed without a clear product that generates revenue. | ||
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domovoi
United States1478 Posts
On July 27 2011 02:36 BlackFlag wrote: I myself am going to create no society by myself, because I am not a dictator and I reject to force my views on others. Also your question is rather naive because it doesn't work that way. Way to avoid the question. Let's say you had the opportunity to participate in an open, democratic, anti-capitalist society. How is it possible to have market competition in that society? | ||
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domovoi
United States1478 Posts
On July 27 2011 02:40 DetriusXii wrote: It's because they don't want someone else to later to steal the property, patent it, claim it as their own, and shut down future work. The work is still being done for free without direct monetary incentive. it doesn't defeat the argument that collective work is being performed without a clear product that generates revenue. Actually, OSS wouldn't be anywhere were it not for companies like IBM paying engineers to develop OSS software. So there is some monetary incentive even in OSS land. But of course, money is not the only incentive. Status is a strong incentive amongst open source developers. The point is that without private ownership of the code, hardly anyone would contribute. | ||
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BestZergOnEast
Canada358 Posts
Well presumably if copyright was gotten away with, patent laws would be gone as well. | ||
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BlackFlag
499 Posts
On July 27 2011 02:39 domovoi wrote: Capitalism has always existed, even in pre-agricultural societies. Abuse of the common people always existed, not capitalism. It's akward to call anything before ~1800 capitalism, and in fact, not true. | ||
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BestZergOnEast
Canada358 Posts
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BestZergOnEast
Canada358 Posts
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TheFrankOne
United States667 Posts
On July 27 2011 02:39 domovoi wrote: Capitalism has always existed, even in pre-agricultural societies. Name a few then. Show me some examples of successful open, democratic, anti-capitalist societies. What? Pre-agricultural were capitalist? Please explain further, what means of production and ownership were there to define capitalism? What the hell is an anti-capitalist society anyways? @BestZerg The US had tariffs on imports averaging 35% during that time period. Also a society with universal suffrage is not the same thing as a republic. | ||
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domovoi
United States1478 Posts
On July 27 2011 02:49 BlackFlag wrote: Abuse of the common people always existed, not capitalism. It's akward to call anything before ~1800 capitalism, and in fact, not true. Err, what? Adam Smith was writing about markets in the 1700s. Capitalism is just private ownership of the means. And really, think about the argument you're making. There has historically been no open and free society; ancient societies are full of human subjugation, rape and war. I mean, if you want to live in those anti-capitalist societies full of human suffering, then by all means, I welcome you. | ||
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