The US debt (proper debate) - Page 21

On July 26 2011 23:01 BestZergOnEast wrote:
America's current prosperity comes from one factor - the economic freedom in which that country existed from 1776-1914.

On July 27 2011 01:58 Potatisodlaren wrote:


Wasn't slavery legal until 1885? And then it was practiced for a while even after it was made illegal? 89 years of the 138 of which you claim "economic freedom" had legalized and institutionalized slavery.

Non white males gained voting rights 1870 and women 1920.

Am I missing something from your argument?

On July 27 2011 01:56 BlackFlag wrote:
Until the 80ies the economic policy was nowhere near "laissez-faire". It was pretty protectionistic (at least in parts) and very often had government-interventions (at least in Europe). Increase in living standards has much more to do with technology. And if the technological progress has to do, or was "provided" by capitalism is, at least, debatable.

On July 27 2011 01:58 BestZergOnEast wrote:
Of course it follows. Man acts purposefully. Purpose implies the use of reason. Otherwise it would be involuntary, a reflex. Action is in the same class as reason; one cannot act w/o using reason.

On July 27 2011 02:00 BlackFlag wrote:


The slave chose to work on the farm, because he could also just commit suicide or run away and starve to death. It's voluntary!

On July 27 2011 01:59 BestZergOnEast wrote:
Fascism is the polar opposite of laissez-faire capitalism, and advocates of laissez-faire have been the greatest opponents of fascism. The fascists drove Mises out of Austria, even out of Europe, made him flee to America because he was such a vocal critic of fascism (back when it was very popular, it's ez to be a critic of fascism now, when it is unimportant to be one, but much harder to do it then when literally everyone in your country is communist or fascist and they hate you for your liberal ideas)

On July 27 2011 02:00 BlackFlag wrote:


The slave chose to work on the farm, because he could also just commit suicide or run away and starve to death. It's voluntary!

On July 27 2011 02:04 BlackFlag wrote:


It doesn't have to do if your beloved mises was an anti-fascist. Laissez-faire capitalism leads to a broad poverty across all people. Accumulation of wealth in very few hands, this gives power to fascists who come up with easy solutions for complex problems. Look at the European political situation and how right wing extremists slowly gain power.

On July 27 2011 02:02 domovoi wrote:

Relative to the '40s and relative to the USSR, the West was very laissez-faire in the '60s and '70s. I'm not sure why you continue to think economic policy has little to do with economic growth when there are so many examples that prove otherwise: Taiwan, Singapore, Korea and Japan vs. pre-'80s China; China today vs. pre-'80s China; Vietnam today vs. pre-'80s Vietnam, the West vs. the USSR during the Cold War.

There isn't much useful technology that can be mainly attributed to government expenditure. Even the internet, a government project, did not obtain its level of reach and usefulness until there was a market for it. Cars and household appliances have dramatically improved. Consumer gadgets, personal computers, and software, etc.

On July 27 2011 02:06 BestZergOnEast wrote:
BlackFlag, if laissez-faire capitalism leads to a broad poverty across all people why has this not happened in places where laissez-fair capitalism was tried? Actually quite the opposite. Can you back up your theory with some cases in point?

On July 27 2011 02:10 BestZergOnEast wrote:
Yeah, but without private ownership of the means of production no one really gives a fuck to go out and invent something, since they don't get any benefit from doing so. In fact they would probably get punished for slacking off work if they attempted to invent something, since without private property you need a state to force people to do things or they don't get done.

On July 27 2011 02:08 BlackFlag wrote:


I'm not talking about government inventing things, I'm thinking that a democratic and open society that tries to make it's people intelligent provides the reason why things get invented. In a totalitarian dictatorship were everyone who doesn't follow the rules, get's offed, from where shall the intelligent people come that think outside the box?
I'm just saying an open, democratic society doesn't have to be capitalist, so another open anti-capitalist society could just have invented as much technology.