You can write 70 pages about how awful the mass murdering was, but certainly not 70 pages about whether he was right or wrong to do so.
You've obviously missunderstood the discussion as no one has the viewpoint that what he did was right.
Didn't express myself correctly, was talking about his ideas, which some people seem to be delighted to point out that to some extent they are acceptable.
Doesn't change a thing. You wanna forbid people to discuss any idea that anyone ever used to justify any hateful crime ? If so, we aren't gonna discuss anything at all, ever. Discussing his ideas doesn't mean anyone here endorse what he did. But I am not sure not discussing them at all couldn't actually have an even worse outcome.
Starts at 12:10. Gore Vidal discusses Timothy McVeigh - and doesn't seem to condemn part of his motivations for what he did. It doesn't mean that he thinks what he did was ok, he just tries to understand the guy's logic, and understand some of his motives (it's brief but you it's easy to find more info about Vidal/McVeigh online) To understand and/or agree with all or part of someone's view of the world doesn't mean that you endorse his/her actions (as the saying goes : "what you do is what you are", and not "what you think is what you are"). And if that kind of logic is good enough for Gore Vidal (which many consider the greatest US historian alive ), it should be enough for many of us. Not that you have to agree with someone's politics but don't judge people's intentions too harshly just because they political views that are different from yours. That norwegian guy was a freak. People here aren't.
On July 25 2011 03:34 Shikyo wrote: "Helsingin yliopiston rikosoikeuden professorin Dan Fränden mukaan eristyksen kriteeri on kuitenkin nimenomaan vangin oletettu vaarallisuus vapautumishetkellä, eivät aiemmat rikokset sinänsä. "
According to a Helsinki university criminal law professor, the criteria for keeping the criminal locked in for longer than 21 years is precisely their presumed threat to society at the moment of release, and has nothing to do with their past crimes
Wich is absolutely normal because Justice is not about Vengeance. I don't want to see this guy in daeth row. I want this guy to think and realise what he really did. I want him to cry and explain how brain fuck he was, so we'll then might be able to understand and prevent that fucked-up scenarii. I want him to have remorses that haunt his dreams till the end of his life. I want that guy to try to rebuy himself by positive actions in the far future. This might sound "hello kitty world" for most of you but the truth is that there have been numerous cases of ancient criminals trying to make up for what they did even though this is not possible.
I think there is a huge confusion between avanging those horrible death and doing justice, but I really won't blame anyone that would want to kill this bastard. I just have that feeling that we need to break that circle of violence. With all our feelings an principles, a crime usually lead to another crime.
This guy is a criminal and a victim. A victim of himself, bad influences and bad education. We need to fight the problem at the root. Just my 2 cents. Because I REALLY don't want to see something like this happen again EVER.
I wish a lot of courage to all the families, friends and all people related to those death. The entire world is sharing your pain.
On July 24 2011 23:18 Maenander wrote: Spiegel Online just published an article stating that large parts of his manifesto are copied from blogs of the right-wing scene, so don't think too much of him!
You can write 70 pages about how awful the mass murdering was, but certainly not 70 pages about whether he was right or wrong to do so.
You've obviously missunderstood the discussion as no one has the viewpoint that what he did was right.
and to clarify. This guy is a simple copycat. Nothing he has done or said is new. He hasn't really said or written anything that hasn't already been known for years among right extremists.
1 man killing 70+ children in Norway is pretty new. Doesn't matter what his political views are, killing 70 kids means you just aren't right in the head, obviously.
+1
All the guys here discussing the motives of this murderer: He murdered 80 children in cold blood hunting them down on an island. Do you need to read some fucking paper he wrote to judge this guy. Srsly! If you are pissed of by your political system or whatever, open another thread or whatever. But do not make this dumbfuck to more then he is.
On July 25 2011 03:43 r.Evo wrote: The point is: People who sympathize with his actions and/or idealogies (and you can bet your ass there will be some) will talk about this. If the people who don't agree shut up - the other side wins.
On July 25 2011 03:12 MaGic~PhiL wrote: The thing is and that I dont get: The most logical conclusion, that he would get into jail and his individual life would just break apart and suck from now on for the future of his life on earth.. Thats what he didnt think about?
I mean we often blame egoism on so much in society. If this guy was egoistic enough he would have never done this. He did this for an ''idea'' and not himself.
I am not going to quote it but yeah, he discusses this very thing, and assumes that he will suffer a breakdom from the pressure that is going to be mounted on him.
On July 25 2011 04:37 MoYoG wrote: All the guys here discussing the motives of this murderer: He murdered 80 children in cold blood hunting them down on an island. Do you need to read some fucking paper he wrote to judge this guy. Srsly! If you are pissed of by your political system or whatever, open another thread or whatever. But do not make this dumbfuck to more then he is.
Our prime minister said friday: "We will fight this with more democracy, not less."
Noone is comfortable with giving a mass murderer the platform he wants, but I think that as the social beings we are, people feel a strong need to go into discussion. It is not really relevant if this happens in this thread or others.
On July 25 2011 04:37 MoYoG wrote: All the guys here discussing the motives of this murderer: He murdered 80 children in cold blood hunting them down on an island. Do you need to read some fucking paper he wrote to judge this guy. Srsly! If you are pissed of by your political system or whatever, open another thread or whatever. But do not make this dumbfuck to more then he is.
Our prime minister said friday: "We will fight this with more democracy, not less."
Noone is comfortable with giving a mass murderer the platform he wants, but I think that as the social beings we are, people feel a strong need to go into discussion. It is not really relevant if this happens in this thread or others.
Wow norway is a great country and im glad to hear that from someone from there. I was feeling very bad about this threat but this is just amazing thanks a lot, and you are probably right.
Stay strong stay open mindet... be a model for this cruel world.
On July 25 2011 05:09 lizzard_warish wrote: What program do you open his manifesto with? I used like microsoft word and just got insane gibberish.
The original is a .docx file, which I believe is the format for very new Microsoft Office versions. There are .pdf versions kicking around the net, which will probably be more useful to you.
On July 25 2011 04:37 MoYoG wrote: All the guys here discussing the motives of this murderer: He murdered 80 children in cold blood hunting them down on an island. Do you need to read some fucking paper he wrote to judge this guy. Srsly! If you are pissed of by your political system or whatever, open another thread or whatever. But do not make this dumbfuck to more then he is.
Our prime minister said friday: "We will fight this with more democracy, not less."
Noone is comfortable with giving a mass murderer the platform he wants, but I think that as the social beings we are, people feel a strong need to go into discussion. It is not really relevant if this happens in this thread or others.
Wow norway is a great country and im glad to hear that from someone from there. I was feeling very bad about this threat but this is just amazing thanks a lot, and you are probably right.
Stay strong stay open mindet... be a model for this cruel world.
"No one will bomb us into silence. No one will shoot us into silence. No one is ever going to frighten us away from being Norway." "We must never cease to stand up for our values. We have to show that our open society can pass this test too. The answer to violence is even more democracy, even more humanity, but never naivety. That is what we owe to the victims and to those they hold dear."
From the PM speech on Friday. Parts also reiterated today and yesterday.
On July 25 2011 03:43 r.Evo wrote: The point is: People who sympathize with his actions and/or idealogies (and you can bet your ass there will be some) will talk about this. If the people who don't agree shut up - the other side wins.
Been like that for any topic similar to this.
sure but there's a time and place for that.
Well, I don't see how this place could be the wrong one (unless you wanna create a specific forum thread "people who want to discuss the ideas of that norwegian freak (whose name I don't even wanna bother checking")).
Time might be an issue but it's hard to ask people on a forum not to react instantaneously either. It"s the downside of forums most of the time : if you don't discuss something fast, many people will already be focused on the next big thing.
And to answer to the post above yours: I don't think anyone is making this dumbfuck more than he is. I don't mind discussing some of his political views (because I don't think people with views even remotely similar to his should be made guilty by association, people are entitled to diffferent political views ; actions are something else), it doesn't change the fact that I've been teary eyed several times since yesterday and if I could slowly tear his nails myself right now just to have the fucking illusion of feeling better, I would probably be enraged enough to do it. I surely wouldn't be a better person because of it but that would probably be my only worry, the creep deserves absolutely nothing else.
I almost started reading his manifesto but I realized I would be playing into the killer's hands. It's not about wether his idea's are right or wrong, it's about his methods. He killed 93 people, including shooting children praying for their life at close range as a marketing stunt to get people to read it. I do not want any part of this plan and I don't want other ideologists get the idea that if you want people to read your works killing as many children as possible is a good idea.
There was an interview with one of the survivors on tv, nrk, earlier where the 11 year old was talked about, the survivor had laid on the beach, pretending to be dead, and could listen and see the 11 year old standing infront of the killer saying: dont shoot me, you have already killed my father, im too young to die, stop the killing, enough people has died.
The boy was spared yeah, this 11 year old is brave beyond words and is for me one of the many symbols against all this hate.
EPT
