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Keep your off topic discussions out of this thread and show some damn respect! |
On July 24 2011 20:39 Zihua wrote:Show nested quote +I call for a mod to close this or move all the "I dont like that he killed 90 ppl but he is right, muslims are bad in europe" to a seperate discussion (in my opinion the trash would be a proper place for posts like this). You seem very delighted to use this tragedy to shut down this discussion forever. Hopefully that won't happen.
You must be insane thinking a thread about 90 young ppl killed is the right place for your discussion.
If you want to start a thread about a "muslims and christians cant live together topic", there I would be really happy to show you how wrong you are.
This is just not the right place! Show some damn respect!
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His manifesto has some very true things in it
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On July 24 2011 20:46 Derez wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 20:13 Weson wrote:
I dont like where this is heading. He want people to read his shit. The goal of his acts were to get people to listen to him. Now people reads his manifesto, spreads links to it and even discussing it in a way that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. He's winning right now... He isn't winning at anything, except at being in prison for the rest of his life. His 'manifesto' lost all it's credibility the moment he shot at kids. People should read it, especially those on the (far-)right side of politics. It's a perfect example of how any ideology can be perverted up to a point where the logical outcome is killing civilians. If you have a sick enough mind, you get to be a terrorist for whatever cause you believe in: islam, christianity, anarchism, socialism, you name it. If anything these attacks should have people to reconsider their perspectives and their views of eachother. If a person from a certain group performs a terrorist act, we implicitly place some of the guilt on the entire group. Turns out every group has it's demons.
His manifesto is not really new though, it just re hashes the same old propaganda that extremists have been claiming since Hitler. It's nothing more than a text written by a madman.
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On July 24 2011 20:40 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 20:32 Maliris wrote:On July 24 2011 20:30 MaGariShun wrote:On July 24 2011 20:17 Maliris wrote:
If we didn't have religion, things like this wouldn't happen. Religion inspires prejudice and hatred and snuffs out rational thinking and logic, hopefully one day being religious will be just as pathetic as believing in a flat earth or steady state universe I hope you know that religious principles brought us to where we are now. With purely rational thinking and no ethics and morals (brought in by religions) the world would be off a lot worse. And you base this off what evidence? Religion was created by man, in the same way those ethics and morals were created by man. Why did we need religion for morals and ethics to exist? I am an atheist and I know the difference between right and wrong. To further explain this: The reason why people are "nice" to each other is not because of god. It's just evidently clear that a group of people that takes care of each other and guards over themselves as a group with respect is far more likely to survive compared to a dysfunctional group of people where they do bad things to each other all the time. This happens everywhere and not just Humans, like in the animal kingdom. like in a pack of wolfs they take various roles, some hunt, other scout for rival flocks, other take care of the cubs etc. It has nothing to do with god, it's just behavior that increases the probability of survival.
That is the reason why reasonable people are nice to each other. Are prisoners nice to each other? No they segregate each other based on defining features which don't mean anything in the real world.
So what happens to those who aren't reasonable?
Religion encourages or forces them to be good people, through different means. Religions are for everyone, not just the intellectuals who think they know better and points out flaws which are irrelevant to them.
On July 24 2011 20:45 Kemy wrote:
Please, stop comparing his views with the views of conservative parties across Europe. He does not "raise concerns" but he wants to kill
- Everyone in Europe that is not an indigenous European
- Everyone that sympathizes with a non-indigenous European
- I bet that the next step after purging Europe is to purge to World free of everyone not thinking as he does
He intends to kill millions and millions of people. How can you even start a political discussion as it currently takes place in most countries across Europe based on his theory which "seems to have some valid points"?
He wants a Judeo-Christian Europe.
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On July 24 2011 20:43 Huumy wrote:I don't think what the man did was right. Agression is never justified. Also I like to think people as individuals not as groups, so obviously I don't agree about muslims or christians as a whole being dangerous or evil. Also I haven't read his manifesto. Just making clear that I don't think what he did was anyway good or that I share his beliefs. Show nested quote +I dont like where this is heading. He want people to read his shit. The goal of his acts were to get people to listen to him. Now people reads his manifesto, spreads links to it and even discussing it in a way that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. He's winning right now... I don't agree with this. I think people who want to read it should be allowed. The worst thing to do is to bury it as something evil or tabu that no1 should know about. That makes the ideas and words of the manifesto that much stronger. In worst case it makes the manifesto to become some kinda underground go to book for the same minded people. This is only my opinion.
Ofc you should be able to read it if you want. It's just that i dont like that it's getting promoted by some people. I dont think this is the place to discuss that. It's a lot of teenagers on TL and they can be easily affected by it.
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On July 24 2011 20:48 xyl0s wrote:
His manifesto has some very true things in it
No it doesn't. It's pseudo-scientific garbage mixed with his own 'predictions' of what will happen to the world.
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Just hope the anti-gun tards don't use this for their retarded policies
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Sigh, I really pity all the innocent people that got killed for some idiot's manifesto. RIP.
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He got exactly what he wanted t.t
he wanted to kill some innocent people to get attention he dont deserve.
The media posted all his nice prepared internet photos on the front pages, and everyone is interested in what his ideas were so now they read his manifesto.
The next guy now will know what he has to do if he wants some attention and fame
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Northern Ireland2557 Posts
On July 24 2011 20:44 MaGariShun wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 20:32 Maliris wrote:On July 24 2011 20:30 MaGariShun wrote:On July 24 2011 20:17 Maliris wrote:
If we didn't have religion, things like this wouldn't happen. Religion inspires prejudice and hatred and snuffs out rational thinking and logic, hopefully one day being religious will be just as pathetic as believing in a flat earth or steady state universe I hope you know that religious principles brought us to where we are now. With purely rational thinking and no ethics and morals (brought in by religions) the world would be off a lot worse. And you base this off what evidence? Religion was created by man, in the same way those ethics and morals were created by man. Why did we need religion for morals and ethics to exist? I am an atheist and I know the difference between right and wrong. Did you come up with a definition of right and wrong yourself? Most likely it was the society around you who thought you those concepts and that society is based on christian morals and ethics. With only reason, if you meet a man who has money and you could kill him without everyone ever knowing to take the money, what is stopping you from doing it?
It's called a conscience and empathy. Empathy is an inherent trait in every animal because it increases our survivability. Christianity isn't the only religion in the world either, do you think we had no laws or morals before Christianity was invented? Please...
What exactly makes you think the version of right and wrong of the people that created Christianity is right in the first place? They had an idea about how the world worked, and they imposed it on everyone by spreading their propaganda. For years people have been oppressed just because of their conflicting views simply because religion is such a powerful manipulator. People were killed for suggesting that the Sun and everything in the universe did not revolve around the Earth. In Islamic countries, people are executed for apostasising. In Roman Catholic Christianity, being gay or using contraception is considered a sin.
Religion is just a tool used to propagate the creator's views of how the world should work, we lived in a patriarchal society when Christianity was made which is why a woman (Eve) was blamed for everything imperfect and all the sin in the universe because she picked an apple from a tree in some fictitious garden... it is obvious this was just made up to strengthen the belief that men are superior to women which in this day and age no one should truly believe.
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I am truly disgusted by the attitude presented by some people in here. Do you not think I care deeply for those killed by this terrorist? Do you not think I was moved by tales from eyewitnesses? It is never right to kill innocent people, and these were children for god's sake, they wouldn't even have understand what he was talking about. This monster destroyed the lives of those who would have a full life ahead of them.
And how is this not the place to discuss his motivation? Is it not directly connected to this act of terror? I believe in a world where everyone lives together peacefully, a world dictated by love, reason and logic. Not by hate, fear and the inability to see other people's views. However, I don't cover my eyes from all the problems when cultures clash. Some cultures are only a little different from others thus can live together and some have directly opposing views and it would not be wise to mix them. No matter how much I wish we could all live together, it just doesn't work like that. Some cultures are just better off staying away from each other minding their own business.
You know what is the value I hold dearest? Live and let live.
Stop insulting me by saying I sympathize with him or saying I am an extremist when I find some truth in his views. The keyword here is some, not all. Stop trying to make it look like I think everything he said is true. The only truth I found was that some cultures are just not meant to be together.
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This is taken from his manifesto:
"As a Justiciar Knight you are operating as a jury, judge and executioner on behalf of all free Europeans. Never forget that it is not only your right to act against the tyranny of the cultural Marxist/multiculturalist elites of Europe, it is your duty to do so.
There are situations in which cruelty is necessary, and refusing to apply necessary cruelty is a betrayal of the people whom you wish to protect.
The preferred method is to attack in a violent and deceptive form (shock attack), usually with limited forces (1-2 individuals).
Once you decide to strike, it is better to kill too many than not enough, or you risk reducing the desired ideological impact of the strike. Explain what you have done (in an announcement distributed prior to operation) and make certain that everyone understands that we, the free peoples of Europe, are going to strike again and again. Do not apologise, make excuses or express regret for you are acting in self-defence or in a preemptive manner. In many ways, morality has lost its meaning in our struggle. The question of good and evil is reduced to one simple choice. For every free patriotic European, only one choice remains: Survive or perish. Some innocent will die in our operations as they are simply at the wrong place at the wrong time. Get used the idea. The needs of the many will always surpass the needs of the few."
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Based off the summary post, the killer looks to be one of those "brilliant but deranged" criminals...I wish I knew how these guys worked, it's fascinating in a strange way.
My condolences go out to those injured or killed during these events...
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On July 24 2011 20:55 Thorakh wrote:
You know what is the value I hold dearest? Live and let live.
Stop insulting me by saying I sympathize with him or saying I am an extremist when I find some truth in his views. The keyword here is some, not all. Stop trying to make it look like I think everything he said is true. The only truth I found was that some cultures are just not meant to be together.
Some truth?
Cultures are different. Thats not a view thats a fact. It is obvious that there will be friction when trying to live together. It's about how we go about it that separates political parties. Some will emphasize integration measurement other will emphasize isolationist'ish measurements.
Your approach: Live and let live
His approach: Kill everyone
How can you even see the smallest consensus between his view and the view of everyone else?
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On July 24 2011 20:54 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 20:52 Derez wrote:On July 24 2011 20:48 xyl0s wrote:
His manifesto has some very true things in it No it doesn't. It's pseudo-scientific garbage mixed with his own 'predictions' of what will happen to the world. You have read 1500 pages and can safely say not a single thing is very true? I seriously doubt that. He is a very intelligent man, even though he's completely deranged.
It's true, its garbage. For starters he isn't really saying anything concrete, everything he talks about are abstractions and various group related phenomena. Further he talks allot of the danger of ideology, without even a thought about that what he is writing, in it self also is an ideology.
Further most of the stuff he writes is a mismatch where he mixes real facts with made up contexts that is not supported in any way by anyone than himself and a group known for being racist and fearing conspiracies.Further it lacks depth, he gives detailed descriptions but it lacks any real substance. It's essentially a piece of inspirational fiction written for those who already believe in it, but its really hard for any outside to even follow it's logic, since he really doesn't explain WHY, he only gives the how. How it happens, what the outcome will be and what should be done about it. But he never explains the why.
WHY is it bad, WHY are the group of people he is pointing fingers at are the evil ones. This is just presumed to be true and already should be known to the reader.
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On July 24 2011 20:23 MaGariShun wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 19:35 Eurekastreet wrote:On July 24 2011 18:47 WhiteDog wrote:On July 24 2011 18:41 shabby wrote:
He states in his manifesto that the main problem is that Islam by it's very foundation seeks to globalize and convert every man, woman and child. This is why - he says - we cannot coexist even if we wanted to, and he seeks alliance, long or temporary, with pretty much everybody else. He is fighting to preserve christian cultural values in the west. It is an extremely strange and horrendous way to get forth your message as a knight of the peace, and he will be condemned and sentenced for his monsterous acts. But people will read his book (heck I've already been reading for hours), and that's all it is about for him and the Knights Templars.
We take pride in our openness in Norway. We are vulnerable by choice and will continue to be so. Even the thoughts and opinions of a mass murderer must be allowed for debate, but in honesty I believe it will take a long time before any of the wounds have healed enough to bring it up. It's wrong for half islam : the most extremist islam view Europe as desecrated earth that all muslim should flee to return to the house of Islam (the middle east), it's the moderate Islam that view Europe as a earth of proselytism. And every religion seek to globalize... it's the same for christianism, yet with time they came to forget that idea and became a pretty peaceful organisation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_population_growthBased on those figures, I wouldn't say christians have stopped trying to globalize. They'might be losing market share in some parts of Europe but it's probably insignificant for their worldwide business, they'll try and fix that if they need to I am sure. I would not call it a peaceful religion either. Unlike islam, they separated from the state politics in many places so every time a shitstorm happens, they can claim "not guilty" but still their sheeps seem to be very enclined to carry their message adamantly. Yesterday's event by a self proclaimed templar peaceful ? The past couple of years pedophilia scandals peaceful ? Rwanda genocide (christians massacring each other) peaceful ? Bush's "God Bless America" before going to Irak peaceful ? And so on and so on. The older I get, the more I think we'd be better off without any religion at all. The difference is that the founder of christianity (jesus) was a man who strictly opposed violence and preached to love everyone, even your foes. Mohammed on the other hand was also a military leader and promoted violence against those who don't believe. So those applying violence in any form in the name of christianity completely act against the nature and fundamental beliefs of the religion and its founder (I'm well aware the historical person might have been different to what is in the bible), while in the Islam Mohammed's actions and certain parts of the Koran (ofc prone to different interpretations) justify violence in various circumstances. Also keep in mind that christianity, while also trying to expand, does this in a peaceful manner (at least that is the theory, of course over the time people have abused the religion for their needs), while even mohammed himself tried to expand the Islam with force. I am not saying Muslims are evil and christians are good, but there is a fundamental difference between those two religions in their stance to violence. PS: I am not a christian (well technically I am, but I don't believe), but I agree with christian principles. I also don't hate or dislike muslims because of their religion, they are still individuals who decide for themselves what they do. I don't like the religion itself tho
Well I won't agree with the reasoning, you can't pick one (albeit major) character of the Quran, one character of the New Testament, put them next to each other and then say "this religion is better". You can find very offensive stuff in the old or the new testament too but you don't hear about very often because we (I guess you do, just like me...?) live in catholic countries and the church probably realized how fucked up some of the original texts were and prefers not to mention them too often (there's still a lot of non-sense but I guess there's only so much they can dissimulate year after year), whereas quite often when we (or at least, me) hear about the Quran, it's with a negative undertone, we never get to see the positive parts of its message. more than one billion muslims seem to live it with pretty peacefully. There's exceptions, but there's christian exceptions too.
About the peaceful expansion, I don't know about that either. Is islamic expansion more violent than christian expansion ? Maybe, maybe not, I'm not informed enough to have an opinion, and can't make one based on some short text or character of each individual book...maybe there's statistics about religion x violence x expansion....I don't know them. It's probably even harder to compare since once again, islam mixes religion and politics (and therefore economy), so it's hard to know if an agressive expansion is made for purpose x or purpose y, or both. It's slightly easier with christianity but again, many conservatives worldwide would prove me wrong.
Finally, I am not a christian (well technically I am, I had 18 years of catholic education but I don't believe anymore) but I don't enjoy when someone try and stuff their religion down my throat, whatever it is (and I gotta say there's more Jehovah witnesses than muslims knocking at my door), it should be a private thing. Physical violence is disgusting but intellectual/moral violence is pretty bad too (and I don't think catholicism keeps on expanding through sheer distribution of free bibles)
I'm of the opinion that state and church should be separated and that's a problem I have with Islam but that's another discussion.
edit : and don't think I will extend this one further because it's not the place.
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On July 24 2011 20:52 Derez wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 20:48 xyl0s wrote:
His manifesto has some very true things in it No it doesn't. It's pseudo-scientific garbage mixed with his own 'predictions' of what will happen to the world.
You've read all of it already, haven't you?
Also, I'm glad I started to read this. I didn't know anything about the greek and assyrian genocide at all, until now.
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number of dead rises to 93, one person died in the hospital...so sad...
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On July 24 2011 20:46 Derez wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 20:13 Weson wrote:
I dont like where this is heading. He want people to read his shit. The goal of his acts were to get people to listen to him. Now people reads his manifesto, spreads links to it and even discussing it in a way that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. He's winning right now... He isn't winning at anything, except at being in prison for the rest of his life. His 'manifesto' lost all it's credibility the moment he shot at kids. People should read it, especially those on the (far-)right side of politics. It's a perfect example of how any ideology can be perverted up to a point where the logical outcome is killing civilians. If you have a sick enough mind, you get to be a terrorist for whatever cause you believe in: islam, christianity, anarchism, socialism, you name it. If anything these attacks should have people to reconsider their perspectives and their views of eachother. If a person from a certain group performs a terrorist act, we implicitly place some of the guilt on the entire group. Turns out every group has it's demons.
You do know Norway hardest sentence is 21 years in prison right?
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EPT
