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Keep your off topic discussions out of this thread and show some damn respect! |
On July 24 2011 21:13 valaki wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 20:52 Derez wrote:On July 24 2011 20:48 xyl0s wrote:
His manifesto has some very true things in it No it doesn't. It's pseudo-scientific garbage mixed with his own 'predictions' of what will happen to the world. You've read all of it already, haven't you? Also, I'm glad I started to read this. I didn't know anything about the greek and assyrian genocide at all, until now.
There's no need to read all of it when it's just the recycling of (fringe) far-right beliefs. It's a selective reading of history and a selective interpretation of facts, underpinned by basic assumptions that never go explained.
The entire 'manisfesto' bears a striking resemblance to, for example, Al-Quaida's propaganda, and he goal he's describing, a Europe where everyone is forced into a specific lifestyle and school of thought, is pretty much the same of the kaliphate under sharia AQ wants in the east. They both employ the same rethoric, share the same goal and share the same means (killing massive amounts of civilians). In a sense, we've come full circle.
The guy obviously had some intelligence, but the same can be said for the top tier AQ people. In the end, they're all terrorists and it's all terrorist propaganda. You should see through it, and should also see how disturbingly close some of his 'themes' are to those being employed by fear-mongering politicians all around Europe.
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Yes, he had some valid points, but not the best way to get his message through. It's true muslims are a problem in Europe. Multiculturalism is just asking for trouble, it's a matter of time something worse breaks out. Social democracy and liberalism will be the death of Europe, unless people harden up a bit.
I am not supporting Breivik's actions, killing dumb children is a very wrong approach to bringing light to this problem.
User was warned for this post
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My Godness... Too many lives were terminated for no reason but a man's dementia.
I seriously hope Norway will stand back from this... not without griefing. You can't "just move on" from such atrocities.
I'm only posting here to say my heart's with y'all at Norway. Death is saddening but for it to strike you like that... I have no words.
Also, to the poster above me:
Muslims, a problem? I mean, I know the media has basically portrayed us Muslims as the bane of existence (I am a Muslim-Deist) but seriously. I do not acknowledge the fact that "differences separate us". Maybe some of my fellow Muslims see things in a black & white way, but it's not just about the scriptures: it's about how they're perceived. Maybe knowing more about them and seeing things from their angle will allow you to understand them (and not disdain them).
Also, extremist-islamists are NOT Muslims. Excuse me but blowing up cities in the name of Allah is just fundamentally wrong. As far as the way Islam views war, it's something that's a last resort course of action. I do not talk about the Muslims or the conquests before. I talk about the vision expressed in Islam (not your perception of it, not the way you see it through your culture).
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Northern Ireland2557 Posts
On July 24 2011 21:33 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 21:28 Dhalphir wrote:On July 24 2011 21:23 Dhalphir wrote:On July 24 2011 20:55 Thorakh wrote:
Stop insulting me by saying I sympathize with him or saying I am an extremist when I find some truth in his views. The keyword here is some, not all. Stop trying to make it look like I think everything he said is true. The only truth I found was that some cultures are just not meant to be together. what the fuck is wrong with you seriously, what the FUCK is wrong with you? more than ninety people are dead and you want to start a discussion like this? you have some fucking problems. get the fuck out. Why is it wrong to discuss the views of the person responsible for all this? I find it a rather interesting topic to read about.
Agreed. It seems like Dhalphir can't or refuses to have a civilised argument, perhaps it is him who should get out.
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On July 24 2011 21:37 roflpie wrote:
Yes, he had some valid points, but not the best way to get his message through. It's true muslims are a problem in Europe. Multiculturalism is just asking for trouble, it's a matter of time something worse breaks out. Social democracy and liberalism will be the death of Europe, unless people harden up a bit.
I am not supporting Breivik's actions, killing dumb children is a very wrong approach to bringing light to this problem.
Seriously? Show some damn respect...
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On July 24 2011 21:34 Eurekastreet wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 21:19 legaton wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 24 2011 20:23 MaGariShun wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 19:35 Eurekastreet wrote:On July 24 2011 18:47 WhiteDog wrote:On July 24 2011 18:41 shabby wrote:
He states in his manifesto that the main problem is that Islam by it's very foundation seeks to globalize and convert every man, woman and child. This is why - he says - we cannot coexist even if we wanted to, and he seeks alliance, long or temporary, with pretty much everybody else. He is fighting to preserve christian cultural values in the west. It is an extremely strange and horrendous way to get forth your message as a knight of the peace, and he will be condemned and sentenced for his monsterous acts. But people will read his book (heck I've already been reading for hours), and that's all it is about for him and the Knights Templars.
We take pride in our openness in Norway. We are vulnerable by choice and will continue to be so. Even the thoughts and opinions of a mass murderer must be allowed for debate, but in honesty I believe it will take a long time before any of the wounds have healed enough to bring it up. It's wrong for half islam : the most extremist islam view Europe as desecrated earth that all muslim should flee to return to the house of Islam (the middle east), it's the moderate Islam that view Europe as a earth of proselytism. And every religion seek to globalize... it's the same for christianism, yet with time they came to forget that idea and became a pretty peaceful organisation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_population_growthBased on those figures, I wouldn't say christians have stopped trying to globalize. They'might be losing market share in some parts of Europe but it's probably insignificant for their worldwide business, they'll try and fix that if they need to I am sure. I would not call it a peaceful religion either. Unlike islam, they separated from the state politics in many places so every time a shitstorm happens, they can claim "not guilty" but still their sheeps seem to be very enclined to carry their message adamantly. Yesterday's event by a self proclaimed templar peaceful ? The past couple of years pedophilia scandals peaceful ? Rwanda genocide (christians massacring each other) peaceful ? Bush's "God Bless America" before going to Irak peaceful ? And so on and so on. The older I get, the more I think we'd be better off without any religion at all. The difference is that the founder of christianity (jesus) was a man who strictly opposed violence and preached to love everyone, even your foes. Mohammed on the other hand was also a military leader and promoted violence against those who don't believe. So those applying violence in any form in the name of christianity completely act against the nature and fundamental beliefs of the religion and its founder (I'm well aware the historical person might have been different to what is in the bible), while in the Islam Mohammed's actions and certain parts of the Koran (ofc prone to different interpretations) justify violence in various circumstances. Also keep in mind that christianity, while also trying to expand, does this in a peaceful manner (at least that is the theory, of course over the time people have abused the religion for their needs), while even mohammed himself tried to expand the Islam with force. I am not saying Muslims are evil and christians are good, but there is a fundamental difference between those two religions in their stance to violence. PS: I am not a christian (well technically I am, but I don't believe), but I agree with christian principles. I also don't hate or dislike muslims because of their religion, they are still individuals who decide for themselves what they do. I don't like the religion itself tho This is certainly not the place for this discussion, but i just wanted to point how a-historical your explanation is. - You have a "essentialist" definition of the cores values of a religion. Christianism and Islam are defined entirely by their founders, disregarding any evolution of the dogma (a long history for both Islam and Christianism), any influence of their apparatus (the chuch) or the cross-influence of other social structures (like the relationship with the different local States). - You don't realize the "image" of the founders of this religions are social and historical construction. Jesus as a pacifist hippy is fairly recent representation of the founder of this religion. It coexists with others, way more severe. I lived for a long time in South America and i can mention a bunch of movements (Legionarios de Cristo in Mexico, Opus Dei in Chile and Spain, Schoenstatt for girls) that defended a whole different representation, with a more severe god that died for your sins and that asked you to live in constant mortification. Same thing for muslims, you have a huge range of approaches to religion, ranging from asceticism as dervish from the Sunni to blown-up crazy, with a huge majority of people that just doesn't care (like christians). - The stance on violence from both of these religions have changed over time and depends on you ask (by the way, Islam suffers from a PR problem as they don't have a centralized government as catholics do; therefore, you only have "opinions" from scholars. Nobody is going to hear what a crazy idiot as Monseigneur Lefebvre is going to say about how much he opposes to the Vatican II Council, because people realize how much of a marginal he is and you know the Pope is the official position of the church, but it doesn't work that way with Islam). Mainstream religion has abandon violence a long time ago. Their stance in violence is fundamentally the same. - Religion is always a selective procedure, picking and emphasizing some stuff and forgetting some other. Being so contradictory is one of their strength as it makes religion a malleable tool. You can have both ultra conservative catholics and theologians of liberation under the same church. Same thing for Islam. It's just how religion works. - It becomes intellectually dishonest and politically poisonous when you describe religions as a predefined set of unalterable values, and when you imply that they are "essentially" in contradiction. a)Nice post b)Interesting views and examples c)Not sure Monseigneur Lefebvre is known outside of France (and Belgium ;d) d)We're going off-topic so I'll end it here.
I agree. Nice and thought out post, even if I don't agree with everything you said. This has gone off topic too far, so I will too refrain from posting any further about this issue.
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On July 24 2011 21:36 Myrtroll wrote:You do know that reading the OP is a good thing? It can be extended indefinitely and most assuredly will. No way in hell he is getting back out on the streets anymore.
It should be common sense that this guy won't be released after 21 years though. If they found him guilty.
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On July 24 2011 21:37 roflpie wrote:
Yes, he had some valid points, but not the best way to get his message through. It's true muslims are a problem in Europe. Multiculturalism is just asking for trouble, it's a matter of time something worse breaks out. Social democracy and liberalism will be the death of Europe, unless people harden up a bit.
I am not supporting Breivik's actions, killing dumb children is a very wrong approach to bringing light to this problem.
Why is that?
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The murderer isn't intelligent. He roughly knows the format of an argument like any 14 year old, but when all is said and done, it is an old, racist argument (all the touchstones are there: gold, templars, women, israel) motivated by fear and usually a front for personal troubles (he seems at least to have sexual issues).
Humans struggle to get along because of pride and greed and all the other sins. This doesn't mean we can't be multicultural. Humans are improvable.
The act in itself is depraved and terrifying, and I cannot even imagine the emotions involved.
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Northern Ireland2557 Posts
On July 24 2011 21:49 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 21:36 Myrtroll wrote:You do know Norway hardest sentence is 21 years in prison right? You do know that reading the OP is a good thing? It can be extended indefinitely and most assuredly will. No way in hell he is getting back out on the streets anymore. It should be common sense that this guy won't be released after 21 years though. If they found him guilty.
Indeed, worth noting that the sentence is a minimum of 21 years, I'd say it's safe to bet that he will never be released.
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On July 24 2011 21:37 roflpie wrote:
Yes, he had some valid points, but not the best way to get his message through. It's true muslims are a problem in Europe. Multiculturalism is just asking for trouble, it's a matter of time something worse breaks out. Social democracy and liberalism will be the death of Europe, unless people harden up a bit.
I am not supporting Breivik's actions, killing dumb children is a very wrong approach to bringing light to this problem.
Killing dumb children?
You need to learn something about respect for the dead.
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On July 24 2011 21:37 roflpie wrote:
Yes, he had some valid points, but not the best way to get his message through. It's true muslims are a problem in Europe. Multiculturalism is just asking for trouble, it's a matter of time something worse breaks out. Social democracy and liberalism will be the death of Europe, unless people harden up a bit.
I am not supporting Breivik's actions, killing dumb children is a very wrong approach to bringing light to this problem.
Dumb children? You disgust me.
It's true that muslims are a problem in Europe?
Thats your predgedist and (in my opinion), awful view at it.
Maybe if people weren't so hostile, alienating, racist and xenophobic like you,the world would be a better place and horrors like this wouldn't happen.
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On July 24 2011 22:00 Jiddra wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 21:37 roflpie wrote:
Yes, he had some valid points, but not the best way to get his message through. It's true muslims are a problem in Europe. Multiculturalism is just asking for trouble, it's a matter of time something worse breaks out. Social democracy and liberalism will be the death of Europe, unless people harden up a bit.
I am not supporting Breivik's actions, killing dumb children is a very wrong approach to bringing light to this problem. Killing dumb children? You need to learn something about respect for the dead.
No, I won't respect people who I have had no connections with. Saying dumb children was an exaggeration, but by the age of 18-19, people should have a more realistic view of life than "let's all live peacefully together and not think of the consequences".
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On July 24 2011 21:37 roflpie wrote:
Yes, he had some valid points, but not the best way to get his message through. It's true muslims are a problem in Europe. Multiculturalism is just asking for trouble, it's a matter of time something worse breaks out. Social democracy and liberalism will be the death of Europe, unless people harden up a bit.
I am not supporting Breivik's actions, killing dumb children is a very wrong approach to bringing light to this problem.
You are a despicable person.
The people killed at the camp were not children, they were mostly teenagers from the age of 16-22. And they knew a lot more about politics and humanity than you do.
Muslims are not a problem in Europe, people killing each other when they should stand together is.
"let's all live peacefully together and not think of the consequences".
There are no consequences to multiculturalism, unless maniacs like you and the perpetrator of this terrorist attack (and others) actually gets their way.
Societies like Norway have been multicultural for thousands of years. During the crusades, Muslims traveled alongside Christians back to Europe, which is from whom many of our old military, building, and medical techniques were taught.
The vikings would also take thralls from Eastern Europe and other parts of the world, making up a large percentage of the population. There are no pure races, cultures or people in the world at all.
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Lalalaland34502 Posts
On July 24 2011 22:11 roflpie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 22:00 Jiddra wrote:On July 24 2011 21:37 roflpie wrote:
Yes, he had some valid points, but not the best way to get his message through. It's true muslims are a problem in Europe. Multiculturalism is just asking for trouble, it's a matter of time something worse breaks out. Social democracy and liberalism will be the death of Europe, unless people harden up a bit.
I am not supporting Breivik's actions, killing dumb children is a very wrong approach to bringing light to this problem. Killing dumb children? You need to learn something about respect for the dead. No, I won't respect people who I have had no connections with. Saying dumb children was an exaggeration, but by the age of 18-19, people should have a more realistic view of life than "let's all live peacefully together and not think of the consequences".
Seriously? What does their view of life have to do with anything here?
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For those interested, it has recently turned out that parts of his manifests are almost direct copies of the manifesto left by the Unabomber. This seems to have come from the site Document.no, which is one of the sites Breivik frequented. Here's an example from an article in VG, norwegian newspaper.
"From the Unabombers manifesto:
One of the most widespread manifestations of the craziness of our world is leftism, so a discussion of the psychology of leftism can serve as an introduction to the discussion of the problems of modern society in general.
7. But what is leftism? During the first half of the 20th century leftism could have been practically identified with socialism. Today the movement is fragmented and it is not clear who can properly be called a leftist. When we speak of leftists in this article we have in mind mainly socialists, collectivists, "politically correct" types, feminists, gay and disability activists, animal rights activists and the like. But not everyone who is associated with one of these movements is a leftist. What we are trying to get at in discussing leftism is not so much a movement or an ideology as a psychological type, or rather a collection of related types. Thus, what we mean by "leftism" will emerge more clearly in the course of our discussion of leftist psychology
From Anders Behring Breiviks manifesto:
One of the most widespread manifestations of the craziness of our world is multiculturalism, so a discussion of the psychology of multiculturalists can serve as an introduction to the discussion of the problems of Western Europe in general.
But what is multiculturalism or Cultural Communism? The movement is fragmented and it is not clear who can properly be called a cultural Marxist. When we speak of cultural Marxists in this article we have in mind mainly individuals who support multiculturalism; socialists, collectivists, "politically correct" types, feminists, gay and disability activists, animal rights activists, environmentalists etc.
But not everyone who is associated with one of these movements support multiculturalism. What we are trying to get at in discussing cultural Marxists is not so much a movement or an ideology as a psychological type, or rather a collection of related types. "
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On July 24 2011 22:11 roflpie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 22:00 Jiddra wrote:On July 24 2011 21:37 roflpie wrote:
Yes, he had some valid points, but not the best way to get his message through. It's true muslims are a problem in Europe. Multiculturalism is just asking for trouble, it's a matter of time something worse breaks out. Social democracy and liberalism will be the death of Europe, unless people harden up a bit.
I am not supporting Breivik's actions, killing dumb children is a very wrong approach to bringing light to this problem. Killing dumb children? You need to learn something about respect for the dead. No, I won't respect people who I have had no connections with. Saying dumb children was an exaggeration, but by the age of 18-19, people should have a more realistic view of life than "let's all live peacefully together and not think of the consequences".
ok now seriously
something is fucking wrong with you
make your own thread to spout your ridiculous and pathetic beliefs. don't disgrace the memory of innocent victims with your despicable words.
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On July 24 2011 22:13 Dystisis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 21:37 roflpie wrote:
Yes, he had some valid points, but not the best way to get his message through. It's true muslims are a problem in Europe. Multiculturalism is just asking for trouble, it's a matter of time something worse breaks out. Social democracy and liberalism will be the death of Europe, unless people harden up a bit.
I am not supporting Breivik's actions, killing dumb children is a very wrong approach to bringing light to this problem. You are a despicable person. The people killed at the camp were not children, they were mostly teenagers from the age of 16-22. And they knew a lot more about politics and humanity than you do. Muslims are not a problem in Europe, people killing each other when they should stand together is. There are no consequences to multiculturalism, unless maniacs like you and the perpetrator of this terrorist attack (and others) actually gets their way. Societies like Norway have been multicultural for thousands of years. During the crusades, Muslims traveled alongside Christians back to Europe, which is from whom many of our old military, building, and medical techniques were taught.
No consequences? What a bold statement. And in my opinion, wrong.
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On July 24 2011 22:11 roflpie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 22:00 Jiddra wrote:On July 24 2011 21:37 roflpie wrote:
Yes, he had some valid points, but not the best way to get his message through. It's true muslims are a problem in Europe. Multiculturalism is just asking for trouble, it's a matter of time something worse breaks out. Social democracy and liberalism will be the death of Europe, unless people harden up a bit.
I am not supporting Breivik's actions, killing dumb children is a very wrong approach to bringing light to this problem. Killing dumb children? You need to learn something about respect for the dead. No, I won't respect people who I have had no connections with. Saying dumb children was an exaggeration, but by the age of 18-19, people should have a more realistic view of life than "let's all live peacefully together and not think of the consequences".
I'm 21 and I don't see any consequences in everyone living peacefully together.
Also these kids were younger than that.
Please do go on.
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EPT
