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Keep your off topic discussions out of this thread and show some damn respect! |
On July 24 2011 20:15 Sandtrout wrote:
I thought it'd be longer till some people begin to essentially say "he wasn't all wrong with what he thought and wrote about, he just shouldn't have resorted to killing"...
It´s only the extremists coming out of hiding. They've always been there, it's just that they haven't had the guts to creep out of the shadows until today, and they will crawl back under the rock they came from once this has been settled.
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Northern Ireland2557 Posts
If we didn't have religion, things like this wouldn't happen. Religion inspires prejudice and hatred and snuffs out rational thinking and logic, hopefully one day being religious will be just as pathetic as believing in a flat earth or steady state universe
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On July 24 2011 20:05 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 20:02 Arnstein wrote:On July 24 2011 20:01 Thorakh wrote:On July 24 2011 20:00 Arnstein wrote:On July 24 2011 19:56 Thorakh wrote:On July 24 2011 19:38 Ardhimas wrote:
Some people are treating this man as simply a man who believed in his cause and acted to bring attention to it. Yet suicide bombers are treated as sheep to a religion that they also claim encourages violence. Why the favouritism? I don't think he's that much different from the men who committed the 9/11 attacks, the July London bombings, or the LTTE Black Tigers. He is indeed not any better, because he brought attention to his cause (which is too extreme in itself) the completely wrong way. An eye for an eye makes the world go blind. On July 24 2011 18:51 Thorakh wrote:
I absolutely agree with people who share the view that Muslims and the West just cannot live together, if the concentration of Muslims is high enough. The Islam is just not build that way. We can peacefully coexist, by being in different countries, but not by being in the same. I fear that some parts of his view of the future may come true. It is the Muslims who will have to change if it isn't to come true. And a lot already have, just like almost all Christians, who no longer seek world domination. If you believe truly believe this, it is you who should reform and not the Muslims. If you do not seek peaceful coexistence then you simply won't get it. Nope sorry, I am more than willing to live with people who leave others alone, but the Islam isn't build that way. You can just stick your head in the sand but sooner or later it will come to bite you in the butt. And please point me to the part where I said I didn't want peaceful coexistence? The only way the future will be peaceful is by seperating cultures that are straightly opposed to each other in terms of views. I am of the opinion that some cultures are just too different to live together. Shut the fuck up and leave this thread. I have lost friends due to this, and there are so many people killed, and you continue with this anti-islam bullshit. Please don't post here anymore. It's not anti islam bullshit, it's anti 'people that cannot live together peacefully'. I experience it all the time. Yeah, that's what Anders Behring Breivik said as well. Leave now. And he also said we should violently oppose them and kill innocent children. Point me to the part where I said that. Oh wait, I didn't. Pff... Anyway, I'm stopping this now because some people clearly don't accept other views than a 'rainbow in the sky happy world dancing all together!!' opinion. The world doesn't work like that. Peace.
How fucked up would you be to think "The massacre in Norway" is the proper place to discuss it in. There are several right extremist sites around, why don't you go there instead?
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There's a leap from:
- 'I dislike where our nation is going'
to
- 'I want to kill as many people as possible that support where we are heading'
because
- 'immigration and muslims are violent and bad'
that is just ...
Fucking insane. Weird. Off the charts stupid. No rational person would say, violence is bad, therefore I must kill as many people as possible... that's the logic used by terrorists everywhere, and whatever you call it, this is to me an act of terrorism by a fanatic.
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On July 24 2011 19:35 Eurekastreet wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 18:47 WhiteDog wrote:On July 24 2011 18:41 shabby wrote:
He states in his manifesto that the main problem is that Islam by it's very foundation seeks to globalize and convert every man, woman and child. This is why - he says - we cannot coexist even if we wanted to, and he seeks alliance, long or temporary, with pretty much everybody else. He is fighting to preserve christian cultural values in the west. It is an extremely strange and horrendous way to get forth your message as a knight of the peace, and he will be condemned and sentenced for his monsterous acts. But people will read his book (heck I've already been reading for hours), and that's all it is about for him and the Knights Templars.
We take pride in our openness in Norway. We are vulnerable by choice and will continue to be so. Even the thoughts and opinions of a mass murderer must be allowed for debate, but in honesty I believe it will take a long time before any of the wounds have healed enough to bring it up. It's wrong for half islam : the most extremist islam view Europe as desecrated earth that all muslim should flee to return to the house of Islam (the middle east), it's the moderate Islam that view Europe as a earth of proselytism. And every religion seek to globalize... it's the same for christianism, yet with time they came to forget that idea and became a pretty peaceful organisation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_population_growthBased on those figures, I wouldn't say christians have stopped trying to globalize. They'might be losing market share in some parts of Europe but it's probably insignificant for their worldwide business, they'll try and fix that if they need to I am sure. I would not call it a peaceful religion either. Unlike islam, they separated from the state politics in many places so every time a shitstorm happens, they can claim "not guilty" but still their sheeps seem to be very enclined to carry their message adamantly. Yesterday's event by a self proclaimed templar peaceful ? The past couple of years pedophilia scandals peaceful ? Rwanda genocide (christians massacring each other) peaceful ? Bush's "God Bless America" before going to Irak peaceful ? And so on and so on. The older I get, the more I think we'd be better off without any religion at all.
The difference is that the founder of christianity (jesus) was a man who strictly opposed violence and preached to love everyone, even your foes. Mohammed on the other hand was also a military leader and promoted violence against those who don't believe. So those applying violence in any form in the name of christianity completely act against the nature and fundamental beliefs of the religion and its founder (I'm well aware the historical person might have been different to what is in the bible), while in the Islam Mohammed's actions and certain parts of the Koran (ofc prone to different interpretations) justify violence in various circumstances.
Also keep in mind that christianity, while also trying to expand, does this in a peaceful manner (at least that is the theory, of course over the time people have abused the religion for their needs), while even mohammed himself tried to expand the Islam with force.
I am not saying Muslims are evil and christians are good, but there is a fundamental difference between those two religions in their stance to violence.
PS: I am not a christian (well technically I am, but I don't believe), but I agree with christian principles. I also don't hate or dislike muslims because of their religion, they are still individuals who decide for themselves what they do. I don't like the religion itself tho
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On July 24 2011 20:17 Maliris wrote:
If we didn't have religion, things like this wouldn't happen. Religion inspires prejudice and hatred and snuffs out rational thinking and logic, hopefully one day being religious will be just as pathetic as believing in a flat earth or steady state universe
thats a pretty ignorant statemant sir,
for example a pretty similair incident like the Oklahoma city bombing had nothing to do with religion.
The attack in Norway was more a political act of terrorism than a religious act.
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On July 24 2011 20:17 Maliris wrote:
If we didn't have religion, things like this wouldn't happen. Religion inspires prejudice and hatred and snuffs out rational thinking and logic, hopefully one day being religious will be just as pathetic as believing in a flat earth or steady state universe
I hope you know that religious principles brought us to where we are now. With purely rational thinking and no ethics and morals (brought in by religions) the world would be off a lot worse. It is the often wrong interpretation of religion + leaders abusing it for their own goals that is dangerous. Let us not say what happened on that Island is the fault of religions, because it clearly isn't. This is the fault of a psychopath who acted against every principle religions have.
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According to Dagbladet.no, 6 persons have just been arrested in relation to the terrorist act this Friday
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Northern Ireland2557 Posts
On July 24 2011 20:30 MaGariShun wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 20:17 Maliris wrote:
If we didn't have religion, things like this wouldn't happen. Religion inspires prejudice and hatred and snuffs out rational thinking and logic, hopefully one day being religious will be just as pathetic as believing in a flat earth or steady state universe I hope you know that religious principles brought us to where we are now. With purely rational thinking and no ethics and morals (brought in by religions) the world would be off a lot worse.
And you base this off what evidence?
Religion was created by man, in the same way those ethics and morals were created by man. Why did we need religion for morals and ethics to exist? I am an atheist and I know the difference between right and wrong.
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I cant believe how someone could post anti-islam arguments in a thread like this. What the fuck is wrong with you guys?
I call for a mod to close this or move all the "I dont like that he killed 90 ppl but he is right, muslims are bad in europe" to a seperate discussion (in my opinion the trash would be a proper place for posts like this).
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On July 24 2011 19:46 Eurekastreet wrote:I won't bother going through the manifesto video again but doesn't he mention meeting with other people in Europe to discuss his ideologies and so on ? That he acted alone : probable. That he is not part of a -even small - network : doubtful. But it's obvious he's not gonna talk about it...
Yea, that's what i meant, I doubt that he masterminded and executed everything solely by himself. And now that hes captured, why would he rat out and betray his allies?
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On July 24 2011 19:56 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 19:38 Ardhimas wrote:
Some people are treating this man as simply a man who believed in his cause and acted to bring attention to it. Yet suicide bombers are treated as sheep to a religion that they also claim encourages violence. Why the favouritism? I don't think he's that much different from the men who committed the 9/11 attacks, the July London bombings, or the LTTE Black Tigers. He is indeed not any better, because he brought attention to his cause (which is too extreme in itself) the completely wrong way. An eye for an eye makes the world go blind. Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 18:51 Thorakh wrote:
I absolutely agree with people who share the view that Muslims and the West just cannot live together, if the concentration of Muslims is high enough. The Islam is just not build that way. We can peacefully coexist, by being in different countries, but not by being in the same. I fear that some parts of his view of the future may come true. It is the Muslims who will have to change if it isn't to come true. And a lot already have, just like almost all Christians, who no longer seek world domination. If you believe truly believe this, it is you who should reform and not the Muslims. If you do not seek peaceful coexistence then you simply won't get it. Nope sorry, I am more than willing to live with people who leave others alone, but the Islam isn't build that way. You can just stick your head in the sand but sooner or later it will come to bite you in the butt. And please point me to the part where I said I didn't want peaceful coexistence? The only way the future will be peaceful is by seperating cultures that are straightly opposed to each other in terms of views. I am of the opinion that some cultures are just too different to live together. I wish we could all live together in peace, but we can't as long as others feel that they have the right to kill and surpress people with different views.
Can you find me some reliable information on how Islam is not built for coexistence?
On July 24 2011 19:42 valaki wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 19:38 Ardhimas wrote:Some people are treating this man as simply a man who believed in his cause and acted to bring attention to it. Yet suicide bombers are treated as sheep to a religion that they also claim encourages violence. Why the favouritism? I don't think he's that much different from the men who committed the 9/11 attacks, the July London bombings, or the LTTE Black Tigers. On July 24 2011 18:51 Thorakh wrote:
I absolutely agree with people who share the view that Muslims and the West just cannot live together, if the concentration of Muslims is high enough. The Islam is just not build that way. We can peacefully coexist, by being in different countries, but not by being in the same. I fear that some parts of his view of the future may come true. It is the Muslims who will have to change if it isn't to come true. And a lot already have, just like almost all Christians, who no longer seek world domination. If you believe truly believe this, it is you who should reform and not the Muslims. If you do not seek peaceful coexistence then you simply won't get it. Unfortunately, you can't peacefully coexist with everything, and everyone.
Yes you can, unfortunately most people prefer to not try and let their prejudice run their lives.
On July 24 2011 19:46 vyyye wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 19:38 Ardhimas wrote:Some people are treating this man as simply a man who believed in his cause and acted to bring attention to it. Yet suicide bombers are treated as sheep to a religion that they also claim encourages violence. Why the favouritism? I don't think he's that much different from the men who committed the 9/11 attacks, the July London bombings, or the LTTE Black Tigers. On July 24 2011 18:51 Thorakh wrote:
I absolutely agree with people who share the view that Muslims and the West just cannot live together, if the concentration of Muslims is high enough. The Islam is just not build that way. We can peacefully coexist, by being in different countries, but not by being in the same. I fear that some parts of his view of the future may come true. It is the Muslims who will have to change if it isn't to come true. And a lot already have, just like almost all Christians, who no longer seek world domination. If you believe truly believe this, it is you who should reform and not the Muslims. If you do not seek peaceful coexistence then you simply won't get it. It's easier to point your finger and shout fanatic at something that's alien to you. I'm confident that for every sympathizer of this maniacs ideas there is one who condones suicide bombings. Kind of disgusting and not in line with the times, or so I would have thought a couple of years back.
True. Very true. I think some people here are simply describing this maniac as a person with ideas because they are not willing to show actual sympathy.
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I call for a mod to close this or move all the "I dont like that he killed 90 ppl but he is right, muslims are bad in europe" to a seperate discussion (in my opinion the trash would be a proper place for posts like this).
You seem very delighted to use this tragedy to shut down this discussion forever. Hopefully that won't happen.
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Many of us have heard about "filter bubble" that is being created on the internet.
Well compared to reality bubbles, those filters are pretty mild. The "bubbles" within extemists organisations are even stronger. The problem is that these "bubbles" are usualy being very introverted and promote simplified solutions, this might turn to some kind of overly simplified solution, such as "the use violence" would solve the problem. Usually there is some mature leadership that stops the process here somewhere....
Well I guess that most people have a pretty strong cultural inhibitor towards the use of violence, however if you are daily bombarded with "hate language", bad things can happen to young people (males mostly) that are easily affected by group thinking  .
In order to stop these kinds of things, I think we need to act at an early stage. We need to help people that are stuck inside these "bubbles" to break out of them, we need to discuss with them without being judgemental.
Even so, extemists is unfortunately something we have to accept in a democracy .
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What he writes about ultra-feminism and political correctness I could have written myself. That part of the manifesto I completely agree with.
I think his conspiracy theory about Eurabia is interesting but a little far out. I certaintly dont hope he is right.
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On July 24 2011 20:32 Maliris wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 20:30 MaGariShun wrote:On July 24 2011 20:17 Maliris wrote:
If we didn't have religion, things like this wouldn't happen. Religion inspires prejudice and hatred and snuffs out rational thinking and logic, hopefully one day being religious will be just as pathetic as believing in a flat earth or steady state universe I hope you know that religious principles brought us to where we are now. With purely rational thinking and no ethics and morals (brought in by religions) the world would be off a lot worse. And you base this off what evidence? Religion was created by man, in the same way those ethics and morals were created by man. Why did we need religion for morals and ethics to exist? I am an atheist and I know the difference between right and wrong.
To further explain this:
The reason why people are "nice" to each other is not because of god. It's just evidently clear that a group of people that takes care of each other and guards over themselves as a group with respect is far more likely to survive compared to a dysfunctional group of people where they do bad things to each other all the time.
This happens everywhere and not just Humans, like in the animal kingdom. like in a pack of wolfs they take various roles, some hunt, other scout for rival flocks, other take care of the cubs etc. It has nothing to do with god, it's just behavior that increases the probability of survival.
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I don't think what the man did was right. Agression is never justified. Also I like to think people as individuals not as groups, so obviously I don't agree about muslims or christians as a whole being dangerous or evil. Also I haven't read his manifesto. Just making clear that I don't think what he did was anyway good or that I share his beliefs.
I dont like where this is heading. He want people to read his shit. The goal of his acts were to get people to listen to him. Now people reads his manifesto, spreads links to it and even discussing it in a way that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. He's winning right now...
I don't agree with this. I think people who want to read it should be allowed. The worst thing to do is to bury it as something evil or tabu that no1 should know about. That makes the ideas and words of the manifesto that much stronger. In worst case it makes the manifesto to become some kinda underground go to book for the same minded people.
This is only my opinion.
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On July 24 2011 20:32 Maliris wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 20:30 MaGariShun wrote:On July 24 2011 20:17 Maliris wrote:
If we didn't have religion, things like this wouldn't happen. Religion inspires prejudice and hatred and snuffs out rational thinking and logic, hopefully one day being religious will be just as pathetic as believing in a flat earth or steady state universe I hope you know that religious principles brought us to where we are now. With purely rational thinking and no ethics and morals (brought in by religions) the world would be off a lot worse. And you base this off what evidence? Religion was created by man, in the same way those ethics and morals were created by man. Why did we need religion for morals and ethics to exist? I am an atheist and I know the difference between right and wrong.
Did you come up with a definition of right and wrong yourself? Most likely it was the society around you who thought you those concepts and that society is based on christian morals and ethics.
With only reason, if you meet a man who has money and you could kill him without everyone ever knowing to take the money, what is stopping you from doing it?
Also the poster above saying that bringing in anti-islamic arguments is the same as justifying the actions of a cold blooded mass murderer is an insane accusation. I don't think any sane person would agree with what this guy has done. This whole discussion started because he stated that acted in the name of a religion, not because people agree with his actions.
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Please, stop comparing his views with the views of conservative parties across Europe. He does not "raise concerns" but he wants to kill
- Everyone in Europe that is not an indigenous European
- Everyone that sympathizes with a non-indigenous European
- I bet that the next step after purging Europe is to extend this "purge" to other parts of the world.
He intends to kill millions and millions of people. How can you even start a political discussion as it currently takes place in most countries across Europe based on his theory which "seems to have some valid points"? He has absolutely nothing in common with the established conservative/right wing parties. Nobody would support such course of action. Just mentioning some (obviously non-existant) similarities is an insult to everyone supporting these parties.
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On July 24 2011 20:13 Weson wrote:
I dont like where this is heading. He want people to read his shit. The goal of his acts were to get people to listen to him. Now people reads his manifesto, spreads links to it and even discussing it in a way that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. He's winning right now...
He isn't winning at anything, except at being in prison for the rest of his life. His 'manifesto' lost all it's credibility the moment he shot at kids.
People should read it, especially those on the (far-)right side of politics. It's a perfect example of how any ideology can be perverted up to a point where the logical outcome is killing civilians. If you have a sick enough mind, you get to be a terrorist for whatever cause you believe in: islam, christianity, anarchism, socialism, you name it.
If anything these attacks should have people to reconsider their perspectives and their views of eachother. If a person from a certain group performs a terrorist act, we implicitly place some of the guilt on the entire group. Turns out every group has it's demons.
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EPT
