Poll: What should we do with players who using discriminatory language
Do nothing.--It's not an issue. (456)
72%
Tell them to stop, and report them if they don't. (58)
9%
Do nothing.--It's Blizzard's problem. (38)
6%
Ban them only if they don't stop after repeatedly warnings. (27)
4%
Shun them online and block them from communication. (25)
4%
Ban them outright. (19)
3%
Tarnish their good name online wherever you can. (5)
1%
Tell them to stop repeatedly, but nothing else. (3)
0%
Tell them to stop, and get others to harass them if they don't. (3)
0%
634 total votes
Your vote: What should we do with players who using discriminatory language
(Vote): Do nothing.--It's Blizzard's problem. (Vote): Do nothing.--It's not an issue. (Vote): Tell them to stop repeatedly, but nothing else. (Vote): Tell them to stop, and report them if they don't. (Vote): Tell them to stop, and get others to harass them if they don't. (Vote): Shun them online and block them from communication. (Vote): Ban them outright. (Vote): Ban them only if they don't stop after repeatedly warnings. (Vote): Tarnish their good name online wherever you can.
Across online gaming communities people feel that it is okay to use discriminating language to demean other people. Homophobic language is by far the most common but racist and sexist language appears a lot as well. People who use it are explicitly using it with a negative connotation in order to put another player down.--In Starcraft 2 it's often for using a cheese strategy. The way people are using this discriminatory discourse goes beyond smack talk, which I believe is a healthy and fun part of the game. There's a difference between making fun of someone and calling them a "f*cking f*ggot" and other countless examples.
That being said.-- I wonder what people think are the appropriate response by the people in our community.
As a kickoff.-- I believe that people should ask someone to stop using the language and then if they don't should be reported to Blizzard, the forum, or the event coordinator who should warn the player. If the player doesn't stop after the official warning then they should be banned. I think the warning should also explain the rationale behind trying to stamp out discriminatory language--namely to keep the online gaming community a welcoming and safe one for people of all types to enjoy and participate in.
Other answers could be socially stigmatize them, multiple warnings, refusing to play with them (aka shun them), or any other number of solutions.
What are people's thoughts? Or do people think it's too trivial of an issue to talk about?--From what I've talked with others in game about it seems like the community would like to take action to do something.
My lay person response: Why just because it's the Internet should we not care? Is it different than schools, in malls, or other public places? Put another way- Is because it's the Internet we're allowed to do whatever we want and say whatever we want to others?
My academic response: The more we tolerate things like homophobic discourse the more acceptable it becomes, which lays the foundation for people to use actual violence against people as they take what they learn in online gaming communities into the real world and then act upon that hate. See Judith Butler or Michel Foucault on how normalizing discourses creates a growing impact on communities that ripples out.
The in between response: If it wasn't on the Internet would it be tolerable or would you say something? If you wouldn't say something, I would argue that the belief that using such language against other people is at the root of discriminatory beliefs. Bottom line, why not try to make our community hate-free and open to people of all kinds... even those who take offense (even if not everyone does take offense).
1) New people joining the community will experience the language before they set the filter. 2) The filter doesn't educate the people using problematic language that they should stop using it. 3) Seeing it with *#!*#* or the actual word is more or less the same.
On July 12 2011 09:06 sailorferret wrote: In response to filtering:
1) New people joining the community will experience the language before they set the filter. 2) The filter doesn't educate the people using problematic language that they should stop using it. 3) Seeing it with *#!*#* or the actual word is more or less the same.
actually the filter is on by default.
Just because i call ppl faggots all the time online or not, doesn't make me an homophobic. Its just a curse word.
If it's only a problem if YOU make it a problem who will speak up for the people who it is a problem for? A problem for one is a problem for a whole community.
First they came for the gays and I did not speak up because I was not gay Then they came for the jews and I did not speak up because I was not a jew Then they came for the blacks and I did not speak up because I was not black Then they came for me and no one was left to speak up
It's a rough quote from a famous poem that I don't have the cite for off hand. But you get the idea.
Honestly, starcraft has a better online community than most online communities.
Blizzard has no responsibility over it, and honestly I don't think they could realistically do anything about it without a really serious backlash. I agree with the first reply.
First they came for the gays and I did not speak up because I was not gay Then they came for the jews and I did not speak up because I was not a jew Then they came for the blacks and I did not speak up because I was not black Then they came for me and no one was left to speak up
This quote has nothing to do with anything (and it is misquoted anyway). We're talking about the shit people say on the internet. These people cannot touch you or harm you in any way. You are in absolutely no danger.
As I see the responses come in... I can say I'm a little disheartened at the least that 70% of the people who have voted thus far think it's not an issue.
@DoubleReed- people said that we couldn't ban slavery without a backlash, or that we couldn't eliminate segregation without a backlash... Should fear of a backlash prevent us from trying?
On July 12 2011 09:12 sailorferret wrote: As I see the responses come in... I can say I'm a little disheartened at the least that 70% of the people who have voted thus far think it's not an issue.
@DoubleReed- people said that we couldn't ban slavery without a backlash, or that we couldn't eliminate segregation without a backlash... Should fear of a backlash prevent us from trying?
The only reason these words and actions are so powerful is because idiots keep getting fucking offended by them. Please, explain to me how the word Niger is just fine, but the moment you add a second squiggle in the middle, it is worth blowing a fit over to the point where people have literally died because of it. This is because PEOPLE give it power. People call it taboo, and evil, and worth getting offended about. Words are powerful devices. But, like many hundreds of millions of words throughout history, when people stop paying attention to them, they lose their power and their value. People need to stop giving power to words, because the moment you give power to something as abstract and universal as a word, that power gets abused. Especially by children. They soon realize they possess the capability to wield a word, without possessing the maturity and intellect to understand the consequences or ramifications of that word. All they know is that the word is so damn powerful because people keep getting offended by it!
I have quite a few gay friends who have gotten past the whole "faggot' thing. It is a universal derogative term that can be applied to anything negative. If you are gay and you still haven't realized this, then you best ponder on that. If you aren't gay and are offended by the term on behalf of a friend, then I can guarantee you (from personal experience), that you are more offended than they are. Of course if you are straight and offended yourself by the term, then you should take a good hard look at yourself...
So long story short. STFU and let the world get on with it's life.
If it's only a problem if YOU make it a problem who will speak up for the people who it is a problem for? A problem for one is a problem for a whole community.
First they came for the gays and I did not speak up because I was not gay Then they came for the jews and I did not speak up because I was not a jew Then they came for the blacks and I did not speak up because I was not black Then they came for me and no one was left to speak up
It's a rough quote from a famous poem that I don't have the cite for off hand. But you get the idea.
Martin Niemöller and he was a pastor by trade...
And I think it is a wrong picture to paint. People who say "faggot" probably don't mean to insult the gay community - it happens by extension because they don't really now any swear words and when most of us were raised gays were sadly still something which was looked down upon.
I think this is a non-issue and if you ignore it and refrain from getting insulted it will stop working as an insult and people will move on to other silly things to call each other...
On July 12 2011 09:06 sailorferret wrote: In response to filtering:
1) New people joining the community will experience the language before they set the filter. 2) The filter doesn't educate the people using problematic language that they should stop using it. 3) Seeing it with *#!*#* or the actual word is more or less the same.
The bolded part in particular scares the crap out of me, for reasons I shouldn't even have to articulate.
Words are an expression of thought. You cannot stop people from thinking. Stop trying.
DoubleReed you're drawing a false distinction between discourse and reality in my mind. The languages we use often create the realities in which we live. The closeted homosexual living at home playing games online as on outlet to get away from the "real world" to then have to face that harassment there has a tangible impact on that person. The fact that the Internet is not real in my mind is more of a reason why we can work to protect it for people who use it as a way to get away from their problems... to just have fun... and play a game... or even compete.
I'd also say that it becomes much easier for people to do ACTUAL violence and ACTUAL enslavement once people are denied their humanity through discriminatory language. It was okay to enslave people because they were animals, n*ggers, and savages. Germans called jews rats and other demeaning language. And there's significant sociological data showing people who use discriminatory language (especially in relation to homophobia) are more likely to commit actual violence when not dealt with or educated.
Both language and the Internet are not "real" by the certainly have a real effect on reality... just as much as reality has on our language or our gaming communities.
If the Internet can be anything... why not work to make it an inclusive utopia rather than a discriminatory place filled with bigotry and hate?
On July 12 2011 09:05 sailorferret wrote: My academic response: The more we tolerate things like homophobic discourse the more acceptable it becomes, which lays the foundation for people to use actual violence against people as they take what they learn in online gaming communities into the real world and then act upon that hate. See Judith Butler or Michel Foucault on how normalizing discourses creates a growing impact on communities that ripples out.
First, I doubt that is what they are saying. Why? Because these people don't say anything. Well maybe they state something, but cannot argue for it as they find definitions to be too constricting and truths to be inaccessible to the human.
Second, that is a claim they make. It's based on their "perception shapes reality" (precisely not reality shapes perception) and the following "language shapes perception shapes reality". This though is trivially untrue when talking about objects. This might have some basis for more abstract things, I can't think of any though. Right now they say that the formerly hate filled "faggot" while being used by a person, still has this "hate" attached and will infect every person that uses the word, thus causing them to discriminate. That is trivially wonky. A machete does not cause every user to hack of limbs. Instead, it was hate filled, today it is intended as a word of frustration with a person, not even referring to their sexuality anymore, much less the hate that was once attached to it. In conclusion, the meaning of words shifts and it doesn't do anything to the speaker that wasn't there already.
Not an issue. Freedom of speech trumps all. If you don't like it, don't read it. You can ignore, block, filter, whatever. This is no different anywhere else on the internet, people are who they are, and there will always be hate, misunderstood jokes, discrimination, angry people and so on - especially when you can be anonymouse on the internet. It's naive to think you can moderate it on such a large scale as battle.net, and there will never be an agreement to do it in the first place. It's doing no harm apart from hurting your feelings, and only because you let it. Use the filter!
@SonicTitan- You can help teach people about why their thoughts are wrong or why they shouldn't be expressed. If my thoughts were that I should kill every gay person out there should someone not try to convince me otherwise?
Our thoughts are our own. Our communities are all of ours. We should again work to build an inclusive community.
Even if you think I'm .0001% right about it offending others... why would we want to tolerate it?
Also... it is technically in violation of Blizzard's harassment policy... so they've taken a stance against in harsher than most in this forum.
On July 12 2011 09:19 sailorferret wrote: And there's significant sociological data showing people who use discriminatory language (especially in relation to homophobia) are more likely to commit actual violence when not dealt with or educated.
I would like to see your source on this. Actually, I don't need it. This is clearly a correlation vs causation fallacy.
Do people really get shaken by what's said on the internet? If anything, just block the player. I mean I guess you could report them if you want...you are certainly in your rights as a player to do so but I guess I just don't understand why people take the things 13 year old boys say over the internet so seriously...
This is the internet. Being anonymous allows people to be total fuckwads if they want.
You have 2 options:
1) Say "lol internet" and go on with your life.
2) Attract even MORE attention by complaining about someone saying something bad to you, and get trolled. Hard.
The more butthurt you get, the worse it becomes.
Also,
First they came for the gays and I did not speak up because I was not gay Then they came for the jews and I did not speak up because I was not a jew Then they came for the blacks and I did not speak up because I was not black Then they came for me and no one was left to speak up
really should be
First they came for the communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.
Learn your history. It's not a poem. It's a statement by a German pastor named Martin Niemöller, who lived in Nazi Germany, about his days before he was sent to the camps as a political prisoner.
You cannot possibly make me believe that what some 13 year old idiot spouts on his keyboard equates to oppressive racial discrimination and fascism.
It's obviously not ideal if someone discriminates in any way against anyone, but it's the internet for goodness sake. If you get offended by a person you don't know discriminating against you when he doesn't know anything about you or what you stand for, that's bad. Ignore thems haters.
Sailorferret don't expect sympathy, compassion or true understanding of the issue of discrimination from white middle class males. They have no concept, truly no concept of what being a minority or being discriminated against feels like and respond with ignorant excuses like "it's the Internet," "I have an [insert minority] friend who is just fine with it" or "people give power to words and the words themselves are powerless." They are totally missing the point in its entirety.
If you allow a climate of intimidation, discrimination and ignorance time to breed, it will overflow from its container and seep into real society.
Your "friend" may not have a problem but neither you or your friend can speak for a whole population of people.
Words have power, we gave them that power and the people who forget why are simply troglodytes. The reason "Thrasymachus725" that it is acceptable to say the country Niger and not the word with an extra G is because it reminds people of a time when they were subhuman, a subclass and slaves.
I think the poster should have realised who he was talking to before posting. Personally if someone uses discriminatory language I troll them for as long as possible, report and then ban.
On July 12 2011 09:19 sailorferret wrote: And there's significant sociological data showing people who use discriminatory language (especially in relation to homophobia) are more likely to commit actual violence when not dealt with or educated.
I would like to see your source on this. Actually, I don't need it. This is clearly a correlation vs causation fallacy.
I, too, would like to see this data. I don't recall any sociological studies making such an association quite yet.
DoubleReed you're drawing a false distinction between discourse and reality in my mind. The languages we use often create the realities in which we live. The closeted homosexual living at home playing games online as on outlet to get away from the "real world" to then have to face that harassment there has a tangible impact on that person. The fact that the Internet is not real in my mind is more of a reason why we can work to protect it for people who use it as a way to get away from their problems... to just have fun... and play a game... or even compete.
May I remind you that you have no idea if I'm a closeted homosexual or not. You have no idea if I'm Jewish or Black or a Nazi or a Woman.
The fact is people need to learn that the internet people say awful things for no reason. It's well-known and frequent enough that you just have to learn to brush it off. I know catholics who use catholic as an insult online and black people who use "black" as an insult online. Taking the internet personally is stupid.
On July 12 2011 09:28 Shebuha wrote: It's obviously not ideal if someone discriminates in any way against anyone, but it's the internet for goodness sake. If you get offended by a person you don't know discriminating against you when he doesn't know anything about you or what you stand for, that's bad. Ignore thems haters.
This is exactly how I feel. Very well put.
If anything at least don't respond to them, all that does it egg them on because you are giving them a reaction, which is what they are looking for.
So many people nowadays think they have the right to control the speech or even the THINKING of other people. OP, if someone wants to use language you consider "homophobic" then that is their right. If Blizzard doesn't want to alienate you and thus ban people for using it, that is also their right. But the notion of "teaching them" or "improving society" by controlling the words someone types on the internet is really bizarre and kind of scary.
I blame the sociologists for instilling this "controllers and architects of humanity and society" thinking
Roxanne Lyn Doty, 1993, prof @ ASU, “Foreign Policy as Social Construction: A Post-Positivist Analysis of US Counterinsurgency Policy in the Philippines,” International Studies Quarterly 37, p JSTOR
David Campbell, 1998, prof of cultural and political geography @ Durham U, Writing Security (Revised Edition), p 130-132
Both of these argue that EVERYDAY language by EVERYDAY people trickle up to effect top-level policy making... one can see that with anti-gay marriage activism in certain places in the US.
Homophobia specifically:
Judith Butler's Gender Trouble Michel Foucault's The History of Sexuality Pat Califia's Speaking Sex to Power: The Politics of Queer Sex Michael Warner's The Trouble with Normal - This one shows how dividing language within the gay community divides and undermines the movement.
@DoubleReed - whether or not you are any of those things are irrelevant. Because it doesn't impact you doesn't mean it doesn't impact someone else. If it negatively effects others, you still have no justification for why we shouldn't try to decrease it's presence online. You don't even have the same response as others that ignoring it will make it go away (at least an admission it's problematic to use even if I disagree with their solution)... you simply seem to say that it's ok for people to say whatever it is they want to others. Am I mis-characterizing? Or do you think it is an issue but we just can't do anything? Or doing nothing is the solution?
On July 12 2011 09:32 Aladdin wrote: Sailorferret don't expect sympathy, compassion or true understanding of the issue of discrimination from white middle class males. They have no concept, truly no concept of what being a minority or being discriminated against feels like and respond with ignorant excuses like "it's the Internet," "I have an [insert minority] friend who is just fine with it" or "people give power to words and the words themselves are powerless." They are totally missing the point in its entirety.
If you allow a climate of intimidation, discrimination and ignorance time to breed, it will overflow from its container and seep into real society.
Your "friend" may not have a problem but neither you or your friend can speak for a whole population of people.
Words have power, we gave them that power and the people who forget why are simply troglodytes. The reason "Thrasymachus725" that it is acceptable to say the country Niger and not the word with an extra G is because it reminds people of a time when they were subhuman, a subclass and slaves.
I think the poster should have realised who he was talking to before posting. Personally if someone uses discriminatory language I troll them for as long as possible, report and then ban.
Of course, because White males are never discriminated against. Ever. Assuming that all of us responders except you are white males.
Tell them to stop, and get others to harass them if they don't. <<<<
honestly i'm kind of surprised more people didn't make this choice. This is not a problem that will be fixed by blizzard or anything like that. Rather it's something that I would only hope society as a culture will reject. I know in my state that's the typical opinion. I could only hope that is the opinion of most, to shun those that discriminate based on race.
First you totally misunderstand the posters point of using a well known World War II source to make an argument about the slippery slope of allowing discrimination to occur in any given medium.
THEN, haha, you give the lamest most ill thought out response I would never have expected
Of course, because White males are never discriminated against. Ever.
On July 12 2011 09:21 sailorferret wrote: @SonicTitan- You can help teach people about why their thoughts are wrong or why they shouldn't be expressed. If my thoughts were that I should kill every gay person out there should someone not try to convince me otherwise?
Our thoughts are our own. Our communities are all of ours. We should again work to build an inclusive community.
Even if you think I'm .0001% right about it offending others... why would we want to tolerate it?
Also... it is technically in violation of Blizzard's harassment policy... so they've taken a stance against in harsher than most in this forum.
What if I told you that your idea of an "inclusive utopia" was as thoroughly horrifying as the idea that we should "kill all gays"? Because it is, for reasons I doubt you've even thought of, and that I'm not getting into here.
Incedentally, I've been re-reading "1984" recently. The book is less about socialism versus capitalism and much more about the control and debasement of human language as a tool for social engineering. You should look it up some time.
On July 12 2011 09:21 shabby wrote: Not an issue. Freedom of speech trumps all. If you don't like it, don't read it.
Really? Go to your parliment and throw a bit of hate speech around. See where you practice your free speech after that.
As to the OP, I think if you ignore this stuff it goes away. People do it to get a reaction. Remove the reaction and you've removed most of the reason for them doing it. The rest are just potty mouths, who cares? You can't eliminate stupid. Theres not chlorine for the gene pool!
First you totally misunderstand the posters point of using a well known World War II source to make an argument about the slippery slope of allowing discrimination to occur in any given medium.
THEN, haha, you give the lamest most ill thought out response I would never have expected
Of course, because White males are never discriminated against. Ever.
I think you give my posting too much credit. But I would like to see why/how you think these things of my posts. Please do tell. I think already, by responding to my sarcasm in such a derogatory manner, you are doing the very thing the OP is posting against: BM over the internet.
As to the OP, I think if you ignore this stuff it goes away. People do it to get a reaction. Remove the reaction and you've removed most of the reason for them doing it. The rest are just potty mouths, who cares? You can't eliminate stupid. Theres not chlorine for the gene pool!
You can block, filter and report. I think Blizzard covered it with the exception of being able to block people in game. I do not know how to do that.
People will use the internet as their shield and act like idiots. There is little you can do aside from ignore the children until they go away when no one is paying attention to their immature antics. I prefer the block and report method for constant harassment from bad mannered ingrates.
I do understand your concern for social control and outright censorship.
Three things: 1) You're saying that killing all the gays is a better world than losing the right to say homophobic things... it seems 2) 1984 fears top-down solutions... my proposal is bottom-up from the community itself 3) Language is already being used to debase humanity currently but in a direction that hurts minority populations more than majority populations... so you're argument is (a) non-unique; and (b) answered by the fact that people inevitably try to influence each all the time... the only question is in what direction it goes.
The article is very good at explaining how the right to speech is less than the right to life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness by showing how the right to free speech is a tool used by those in power to maintain power since not everyone has equal access to speech so those in power control the majority of it. Liberal, conservative, irrelevant... bottom-line is that the majority simple has more speaking power than the minority because they have more voices. Democracy was set up to protect against the tyranny of the majority. The question of speech is still a question for democracy and society to deal with. And, of course, there are already limits on speech (can't scream fire in a crowded place) and legislation against hate crime (that combines violent language with violent action)... so you're defense of free speech for free speech is something that most people have already come down against. In short, there needs to be limits on free speech so people can speak freely.
If they use the language once, and it has good context or is being used constructively to further a point then go ahead.
However, if they just drop 80 offensive terms on the drop of a hat because speedlings ran into their main, just report and block them. Chances are those people aren't going to agree to stop any which way and they are technically violating EULA (I think, haven't read it).
Usually the only people who give a shit aren't the people who it SHOULD offend. I hate when people who it shouldn't offend, get offended. If the "discriminated" against party feels offended, then they should be thing ones bitching (sorry to any female dogs out there) about it. Until then, I feel like they don't care, and they shouldn't. No one means to insult gays when they call someone a fag, and I think most gays understand that.
Unless it is directed TO the party (calling a fag a fag) with malicious intent to demean a person for that ACTUAL trait (not because they cheesed, but because they're gay (for example)), then I don't think it's a problem.
I'm kinda chubby. Do I get offended when other people who aren't fat get called fat for, let's say, eating alot? Fuck no.Do I get offended if I shove a whole donut in my mouth at once and someone calls me a fattie? Fuck no. Do I get offended when someone messes around and calls me fat? Fuck no.
Just popping in again to say I don't really consider this discrimination.
Discrimination in the dictionary is: treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit
If a random battlenet troll call you a faggot or a jew but doesn't know if you are one or not, its an insult, not discriminaton. Real discrimination is more serious and yes, it should be stamped out wherever it is found.
Finally, since its sort of related, theres a difference between insults and hate speech. Hate speech normally incites a group to do something. i.e. A black radical using a "kill the farmer song" in South Africa.
Not an issue, plus the use of "faggot" and "nigger" in gaming is a completely different meaning than the norm. They have a different significance. Plus I garuntee you that gamers are easily more left wing (social causes, such as gay marriage, and social equality), than other populations.
If it upsets you, use the filter... It will take all that out, and there is always the freedom of speech issue. Generally, the reasons I can't call you a "if you read spoiler its at your own risk"+ Show Spoiler +
nigger/fagget/cocksucker/maid/kitchen whore
on Teamliquid is because they have rules against it but blizzard has to deal with 1million users, and they ahve set up a filter to deal with it. ToS does not say "don't be discriminating against others" so its just how it is.
I preferably try to be as manner as possible online, everyone seems to be friendly towards me. If someone gets angry and says something, they probably are upset because you won a match and you should just be kind about it, and understanding.
The idea of "cyberbullying" makes me laugh. It's nothing more than a construct by groups of people seeking power/advantages that they believe they deserve, and that they believe others have (which they usually don't). Though the OP's opinion is easy to see, he inaccurately calls it "discrimination". Discrimination would imply that you were treated poorly due to a trait or belief. Unless your ID is something like "GayNProud", or something that clearly identifies certain factual traits about you, a kid calling you "faggot" on the internet is just juvenile name-calling/harassment. For the majority of the world, the word doesn't even carry a sexual-preference connotation with it. The real hypocrisy of the situation is that if you would have been called "fatso", "nerd", "cheeser", "noob", "douche", or even "asshole", the thread wouldn't exist, though the exact same intent and malice would be conveyed.. It's a real shame that there are even such a thing as "protected groups" when it comes to speech. I feel like it's a slippery slope we're already on, and it's only going to be a matter of time before "hatespeak", and the associated punishments of it will apply to people that are really tall, really short, overweight, too skinny, have too round of a head, have eyelashes that aren't very long, or have toe-thumbs, and then we'll also have to give protection to people who are too pretty, and too normal-looking, because they'll be the minority and the only ones without protection from the cruelness and deadliness of anonymous internet smacktalking.
TL;DR - It's the internet, use your filters. If it ruins your day that much, Blizzard has a system in place to deal with it, but don't think you're going to eradicate Bnet's troll infestation..
@Aladdin - Mind explaining to me why it's not taboo to say "serf", then? Does calling someone the N-word really cause that much more pain than calling them "slave"? For me, the country of Niger reminds me of that other word, with the additional G...so we should probably rename that country, right?
If it's only a problem if YOU make it a problem who will speak up for the people who it is a problem for? A problem for one is a problem for a whole community.
First they came for the gays and I did not speak up because I was not gay Then they came for the jews and I did not speak up because I was not a jew Then they came for the blacks and I did not speak up because I was not black Then they came for me and no one was left to speak up
It's a rough quote from a famous poem that I don't have the cite for off hand. But you get the idea.
Nobody is coming for anyone. They are just using offensive language.
It follows whether or not the community should support Reddit given that Reddit endorses child porn and the sexualization of children... and other forms of harassment. People on that thread smee to overwhelmingly say we should not support Reddit because of how it represents our community.
Why is this different? Do you also disagree with the Reddit thread?
It follows whether or not the community should support Reddit given that Reddit endorses child porn and the sexualization of children... and other forms of harassment. People on that thread smee to overwhelmingly say we should not support Reddit because of how it represents our community.
Why is this different? Do you also disagree with the Reddit thread?
That thread is about the sexualization of children. That is different than a kid calling you bad words over the internet.
Child abuse adversely affects a child for the rest of their life. Internet discrimination and name calling won't. Provided they don't have your home address or phone number.
Yes, Battle.net has a mature language filter. That should be more than enough. If you try to draw an arbitrary line of offensiveness you will just end up with collateral censorship when actually people should be able to say whatever they want with their friends. And in the case that you find your friends offensive, you have to suck it up, talk to them about it, or meet new people just like you would in real life. I pity anyone who wants a game studio to baby them through the internet. Lastly and proverbially: it's not words, it's how you use them.
as a white male, but thinking from a minority/female perspective, i don't think i would want to play online so much. sure, the starcraft community is a lot better than most gaming communities, a ton better, i admit that. but how many times have i ran into random people on bnet cursing me with racial slurs at the end of ladder games i've just won? how about joining a mafia game and having someone name themselves a racial slur nearly every single game? orr... say i meet a player and become friends and start playing alot with them. and one day they're pissed about getting cheesed on ladder and complain to me about *racial slur* *homophobic slur*s? what if i was black or gay? this happens to me all the time, and it's got to be a lot more annoying/awkward for minorities. and now we have the majority of the community defending professional players who throw around racial slurs. i mean i think few minorities are seriously offended by this stuff, and it gets old pretty fast, especially for players who are really interested in the game, *hardcore* gamers. but for the casual gamers who pick up the game and experience it, they probably won't keep playing battle.net. and while fixing the masses on battle.net will never happen, you would think that at least the tl community would understand this plight; and minorities who got this far into the community/game could at least have some solace in the fact that the core community disagrees. however that doesn't seem to be the case.
Actually, the peripheral problem is something like that there's no private channel moderation in Battle.net right now. The community needs tools to build itself, not condescension from a huge company.
On July 12 2011 09:32 Aladdin wrote: Sailorferret don't expect sympathy, compassion or true understanding of the issue of discrimination from white middle class males. They have no concept, truly no concept of what being a minority or being discriminated against feels like and respond with ignorant excuses like "it's the Internet," "I have an [insert minority] friend who is just fine with it" or "people give power to words and the words themselves are powerless." They are totally missing the point in its entirety.
If you allow a climate of intimidation, discrimination and ignorance time to breed, it will overflow from its container and seep into real society.
Your "friend" may not have a problem but neither you or your friend can speak for a whole population of people.
Words have power, we gave them that power and the people who forget why are simply troglodytes. The reason "Thrasymachus725" that it is acceptable to say the country Niger and not the word with an extra G is because it reminds people of a time when they were subhuman, a subclass and slaves.
I think the poster should have realised who he was talking to before posting. Personally if someone uses discriminatory language I troll them for as long as possible, report and then ban.
That is probably the stupidest statement I have ever read... And having corrected high-school kids essays I've read a lot of stupid stuff...
None of that is actually discriminatory language, only offensive to some, because they are arbitrarily directed and not targeting any actual group of people based on physical traits or sexual orientation. Faggot on the internet is a stronger word for someone who is lame/annoying, not homosexual.
If somebody's been raging and something slipped from his mouth, I wouldn't care at all. If there is a player, who is the head of the local KKK division and talks about extermination of blacks/jews/gays/puppies/etc., he should be banned from the community. Since the latter doesn't seem to be the case amongst any known sc2 players, I'd suggest people to just stop bothering about what somebody might have said in a moment of anger.
It follows whether or not the community should support Reddit given that Reddit endorses child porn and the sexualization of children... and other forms of harassment. People on that thread smee to overwhelmingly say we should not support Reddit because of how it represents our community.
Why is this different? Do you also disagree with the Reddit thread?
What you just wrote is simply libel. reddit does not "endorse child porn", it simply will not censor anything that isn't illegal. Are there creepy pics of young teen kids in bathing suits? Yeah, probably, as the thread attests to that (I don't go to reddit very often, though I did read that thread..something you obviously didn't do...). But saying that they endorse child pornography is nothing short of a lie. ..And how is this on related/topic?? Child abuse is actually physically and psychological screwing up a kid...talking shit anonymously on the internet is..well..talking shit on the internet..
This whole thing was discussed to death a while ago. If you really cant follow the "sticks and stones" thing, then report them. Otherwise, who cares? Do you honestly feel insulted because of what someone said on the internet?
Ask them to stop if they are your friends or you want them to be. Block them if you don't care to talk to them again. Report them and get others to shun the offenders if it's particularly distasteful.
People who care enough to be considerate make for a good community. Usually these people will be self-conscious and will shape up when asked. A small segment you can just ignore. If you really think that it's out of control, you can report it to Blizzard - with the added threat that you will stop playing the game if Blizzard doesn't fix the problem. This is more of an issue the more social a game becomes.
Quite a few companies are trying to figure out how to police their own gaming communities or help their users police the gaming communities.
It follows whether or not the community should support Reddit given that Reddit endorses child porn and the sexualization of children... and other forms of harassment. People on that thread smee to overwhelmingly say we should not support Reddit because of how it represents our community.
Why is this different? Do you also disagree with the Reddit thread?
What you just wrote is simply libel. reddit does not "endorse child porn", it simply will not censor anything that isn't illegal. Are there creepy pics of young teen kids in bathing suits? Yeah, probably, as the thread attests to that (I don't go to reddit very often, though I did read that thread..something you obviously didn't do...). But saying that they endorse child pornography is nothing short of a lie. ..And how is this on related/topic?? Child abuse is actually physically and psychological screwing up a kid...talking shit anonymously on the internet is..well..talking shit on the internet..
talking shit anonymously on the internet with discriminatory language is more than just talking shit on the internet. while it may be less serious than child abuse(or not, i don't claim to know), as history can teach us, words have power. on the surface, what we can deduct logically is that discriminatory language discourages minorities from playing this game. this makes the starcraft community into something more niched towards white middle class males. if that's what the community wants, then that's what the community will get, for better or for worse.
I thought this thread was going to be about dealing with discrimination in real life. Since its about BMers online, I dont think its really a big deal.
First of all, I think "discrimination" is a slight misnomer. Those BMers will scream racial, homophobic, and misogynistic slurs at anyone, regardless of race, sexuality, or gender. Thats pretty much the opposite of discrimination. Yea, its racism/homophobia/sexism, but they sure as hell arent discriminating who they sling those insults at.
Secondly, its really not a big deal unless you have a young, impressionable 12-year old who cant really take it. In which case, it might be a good time to either give them some hard truths about the world or just not let them on bnet. For most of us, we are old enough to realize that its just some random faceless rager who will probably never impact our lives outside of SC (and even then well probably forget about them by the next day). Its really not a big deal
It follows whether or not the community should support Reddit given that Reddit endorses child porn and the sexualization of children... and other forms of harassment. People on that thread smee to overwhelmingly say we should not support Reddit because of how it represents our community.
Why is this different? Do you also disagree with the Reddit thread?
Okay, he's made comparisons to segregation, slavery, and now somehow pedophilia. At this point, I honestly think the OP is trolling.
On July 12 2011 09:21 shabby wrote: Not an issue. Freedom of speech trumps all. If you don't like it, don't read it. You can ignore, block, filter, whatever. This is no different anywhere else on the internet, people are who they are, and there will always be hate, misunderstood jokes, discrimination, angry people and so on - especially when you can be anonymouse on the internet. It's naive to think you can moderate it on such a large scale as battle.net, and there will never be an agreement to do it in the first place. It's doing no harm apart from hurting your feelings, and only because you let it. Use the filter!
Absolutely agree. Don't even understand why 'Do nothing -- its blizzards problem' was an option. Its a social issue, which we must overcome as an open-minded people. And if we can't overcome it? Well the issue lies with those who discriminate -- and may we all cast them out of our social circles forever.
On July 12 2011 09:55 sailorferret wrote: I do understand your concern for social control and outright censorship.
Three things: 1) You're saying that killing all the gays is a better world than losing the right to say homophobic things... it seems 2) 1984 fears top-down solutions... my proposal is bottom-up from the community itself 3) Language is already being used to debase humanity currently but in a direction that hurts minority populations more than majority populations... so you're argument is (a) non-unique; and (b) answered by the fact that people inevitably try to influence each all the time... the only question is in what direction it goes.
The article is very good at explaining how the right to speech is less than the right to life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness by showing how the right to free speech is a tool used by those in power to maintain power since not everyone has equal access to speech so those in power control the majority of it. Liberal, conservative, irrelevant... bottom-line is that the majority simple has more speaking power than the minority because they have more voices. Democracy was set up to protect against the tyranny of the majority. The question of speech is still a question for democracy and society to deal with. And, of course, there are already limits on speech (can't scream fire in a crowded place) and legislation against hate crime (that combines violent language with violent action)... so you're defense of free speech for free speech is something that most people have already come down against. In short, there needs to be limits on free speech so people can speak freely.
Are you serious with number 1? Wow, you seem willfully obtuse about what people are saying. Basically, this thread is a mountain out of a molehill. People say mean things. Especially on the internet. Get over it.
It follows whether or not the community should support Reddit given that Reddit endorses child porn and the sexualization of children... and other forms of harassment. People on that thread smee to overwhelmingly say we should not support Reddit because of how it represents our community.
Why is this different? Do you also disagree with the Reddit thread?
What you just wrote is simply libel. reddit does not "endorse child porn", it simply will not censor anything that isn't illegal. Are there creepy pics of young teen kids in bathing suits? Yeah, probably, as the thread attests to that (I don't go to reddit very often, though I did read that thread..something you obviously didn't do...). But saying that they endorse child pornography is nothing short of a lie. ..And how is this on related/topic?? Child abuse is actually physically and psychological screwing up a kid...talking shit anonymously on the internet is..well..talking shit on the internet..
talking shit anonymously on the internet with discriminatory language is more than just talking shit on the internet. while it may be less serious than child abuse(or not, i don't claim to know), as history can teach us, words have power. on the surface, what we can deduct logically is that discriminatory language discourages minorities from playing this game. this makes the starcraft community into something more niched towards white middle class males. if that's what the community wants, then that's what the community will get, for better or for worse.
A few individuals who say stupid shit online do not constitute "the community." Hopefully most sane "minorities" will recognize this common sense truth and not assume that battle.net is a forum for the KKK because some idiot starts spamming backwards swastikas.
It's absurd in my mind to arbitrarily suggest that "minorities are being discouraged from playing." I could say all the people stereotyping "white males on TL" are discriminating against me and that I am being discouraged from visiting the site. But I'm not someone who gets upset when people say dumb things on the internet. It's called being a mature adult, to not feel the need to run to the teacher when someone is being a meanie.
Since this whole thread topic is kind of juvenile, let's take it a step further. Let's say you are on the playground, and someone is being a "meanie" and calling you bad names. How do you respond? The responses can range from running to the teacher, to crying in a corner, to ignoring the person, to kicking their ass. Now take your preferred response and apply it to this type of situation online.
Adults have semantics and words for redefining stupid people saying stupid things as "discriminatory speech" etc. but really this is nothing more than learning very basic conflict resolution. People who haven't learned such basic skills are going to revert to the "complain to mommy/complain to the community"-so-they-can-make-everything-better mentality.
Most people don't have that mentality, which is why such a high percentage of people are voting "it's not an issue," which leads to the likewise childish "you don't know what it's like to be discriminated against" argument. In either case, the OP asked a question, got his answer, and he's clearly not happy with the response, unless of course he made this thread in order to have his own little debate on speech.
How could you even change the minds of racists into not being racists?
Are you trying to solve racism?
Or are you just trying to get some sympathy from others and get others to say you're "right"?
Lastly, Your on the internet. You could be a purple and green alien from Pluto and no one would know. *People will find any excuses to insult you. It doesn't mean it's true or that they even hate you. It only means they are angry*
If you are afraid of racism in real life, then I suggest you do something in the "Real World" about it.
I think there's an important distinction within discrimination that needs to be dealt with here. There are two forms of discrimination (a) conscious; and (b) unconscious. Legal theorist Richard Delgado contends that racism operates to an unconscious degree just as much an unconscious degree. To quickly explain, even if you individual do not do anything that is racist by being white you entail a certain amount of priveledge from being white because of societal norms that for instance allows you to find flesh color bandaids or makeup easily (at the very surface level analysis).
Just because someone does not say something dergatory to someone who actual fits that category doesn't mean that it doesn't create a culture that upholds the norms that reward use of language in that way. People "don't mean it that way" may mean that they don't think all gays should be killed but certainly means that they can easily connect being gay with being someone lame, cheesy, and 6 pools. I would contend that that almost puts it in the outright conscious discrimination definition. However, I am more concerned here with the culture that it promotes and the community it fosters. Outright discrimination is obviously worse but implicit forms of discrimination creates a cultural currency that paves the way for it to happen.
As for legal precedent the Supreme Court ruled that discrimination does not have to be intentional or conscious for it to be discriminatory. The rationale behind this was that intentional discrimination is (a) next to impossible to prove; and (b) next to irrelevant because it's about the society that's created and its impact. The implication: if language or norms created within a community create discriminatory conditions that fosters exclusion that it is the obligation of society to help curb the discriminatory effects of this. The Supreme Court didn't lay out an enforcement mechanism however. Nor do I. But I think that regardless of people's intentions or whoever the person who is demeaned by this language actually is, doing nothing tolerates it and creates the conditions for a community who doesn't care about what others may feel or may be offended.
I would also wager, based upon these responses- the bn community is more left than the Republican right but not as left as many pieces of Democrat legislation and rulings that work to target hate speech as well. So I don't know if the bn community is really more left than most.
It is impossible to solve racism through a single forum, a single report of a player, or anything else. However, I am looking to help start the process of ending it from being tolerated like other -isms.
Again- people said slavery could not be stopped, indigenous populations were savages, and that women really are less then men... However, society and culture changes... piece by piece... maybe post by post.
Either way, complacency is as good as consent. Not everyone in Nazi Germany agreed with the Holocaust. Sadly, the majority decided not to say anything. Obviously, this is different than the Holocaust... but should we not do anything against language that people seem to agree if said in person to someone who would be offended is wrong?
The internet is our new medium of communication, fostering connections and communities with each other. Creating a division between what happens on the web from what happens on the crust of the Earth can make for a very sad future as we become more connected electronically.
On July 12 2011 11:15 sailorferret wrote: The internet is our new medium of communication, fostering connections and communities with each other. Creating a division between what happens on the web from what happens on the crust of the Earth can make for a very sad future as we become more connected electronically.
The sad future I envision is one where society is a bunch of wimps who can't handle people thinking or saying anything remotely negative to/about them. The sad future I envision is where every person in the world has a mentality of victimization and wears their victimhood like a badge of honor, which they can use to control and stifle the behavior of people around them.
Long story short: Grow some thicker skin OP. The faster society as a whole grows thicker skin, the better. And quit bringing up ridiculous shit like the holocaust to try and bolster your weak argument.
One last thing- If "Okay, he's made comparisons to segregation, slavery, and now somehow pedophilia. At this point, I honestly think the OP is trolling." @ DoubleReed And "the OP asked a question, got his answer, and he's clearly not happy with the response, unless of course he made this thread in order to have his own little debate on speech." @ jdseemoreglass
Is this not my free speech and should be encouraged? My honest answer- I think better than reporting players is create a forum or thread for it to be discussed to educate each other about the effects of things. I should have put that up there as a poll answer. Sorry if you feel otherwise. Either way, I'd say it's better than not caring at all.
It is impossible to solve racism through a single forum, a single report of a player, or anything else. However, I am looking to help start the process of ending it from being tolerated like other -isms.
Again- people said slavery could not be stopped, indigenous populations were savages, and that women really are less then men... However, society and culture changes... piece by piece... maybe post by post.
Either way, complacency is as good as consent. Not everyone in Nazi Germany agreed with the Holocaust. Sadly, the majority decided not to say anything. Obviously, this is different than the Holocaust... but should we not do anything against language that people seem to agree if said in person to someone who would be offended is wrong?
The internet is our new medium of communication, fostering connections and communities with each other. Creating a division between what happens on the web from what happens on the crust of the Earth can make for a very sad future as we become more connected electronically.
So you are trying to solve racism....(one post at a time ^_^)
On July 12 2011 11:20 sailorferret wrote: One last thing- If "Okay, he's made comparisons to segregation, slavery, and now somehow pedophilia. At this point, I honestly think the OP is trolling." @ DoubleReed And "the OP asked a question, got his answer, and he's clearly not happy with the response, unless of course he made this thread in order to have his own little debate on speech." @ jdseemoreglass
Is this not my free speech and should be encouraged? My honest answer- I think better than reporting players is create a forum or thread for it to be discussed to educate each other about the effects of things. I should have put that up there as a poll answer. Sorry if you feel otherwise. Either way, I'd say it's better than not caring at all.
So your purpose of making this thread was to educate us neanderthals who don't know "about the effects of things," that we aren't aggressive enough towards stupid people online? Maybe you are the one who needs to be educated, and learn to accept speech you don't like from other people, instead of feeling the knee-jerk response to do something to stop them.
The "effects" of someone saying something stupid online depends entirely on your chosen response to such statements.
On July 12 2011 11:20 sailorferret wrote: One last thing- If "Okay, he's made comparisons to segregation, slavery, and now somehow pedophilia. At this point, I honestly think the OP is trolling." @ DoubleReed And "the OP asked a question, got his answer, and he's clearly not happy with the response, unless of course he made this thread in order to have his own little debate on speech." @ jdseemoreglass
Is this not my free speech and should be encouraged? My honest answer- I think better than reporting players is create a forum or thread for it to be discussed to educate each other about the effects of things. I should have put that up there as a poll answer. Sorry if you feel otherwise. Either way, I'd say it's better than not caring at all.
Just because you're allowed to say stupid shit and it's good that you are allowed to say stupid shit doesn't mean it should be encouraged.
I'm sorry that you're sorry that we feel either way. I'd say not caring at all is the best option.
And I posted in hopes of finding a community who cares with ideas of how to better help shape the community we exist within. Sadly, most people did not see it as a problem. The few who did I've been in contact with.
We can all educate each others. And my hope was to learn solutions from you as well. And I also certainly learned a lot in finding out that 70% feel it's not a problem. It gives me some idea of the nature of the community I exist within. Again, I hope we can work together to deal with issues like this and what's posted in the Reddit thread instead of just ignoring it or turning into trolls.
On July 12 2011 11:32 sailorferret wrote: Begs the question if it's stupid shit.
And I posted in hopes of finding a community who cares with ideas of how to better help shape the community we exist within. Sadly, most people did not see it as a problem. The few who did I've been in contact with.
We can all educate each others. And my hope was to learn solutions from you as well. And I also certainly learned a lot in finding out that 70% feel it's not a problem. It gives me some idea of the nature of the community I exist within. Again, I hope we can work together to deal with issues like this and what's posted in the Reddit thread instead of just ignoring it or turning into trolls.
Next time, maybe just say "I am here to solve racism!, Who's with me?"
It is impossible to solve racism through a single forum, a single report of a player, or anything else. However, I am looking to help start the process of ending it from being tolerated like other -isms.
Again- people said slavery could not be stopped, indigenous populations were savages, and that women really are less then men... However, society and culture changes... piece by piece... maybe post by post.
Either way, complacency is as good as consent. Not everyone in Nazi Germany agreed with the Holocaust. Sadly, the majority decided not to say anything. Obviously, this is different than the Holocaust... but should we not do anything against language that people seem to agree if said in person to someone who would be offended is wrong?
The internet is our new medium of communication, fostering connections and communities with each other. Creating a division between what happens on the web from what happens on the crust of the Earth can make for a very sad future as we become more connected electronically.
Comparing random anonymous internet trolls and flamers to Nazi Germany and the holocaust?
On July 12 2011 11:20 sailorferret wrote: One last thing- If "Okay, he's made comparisons to segregation, slavery, and now somehow pedophilia. At this point, I honestly think the OP is trolling." @ DoubleReed And "the OP asked a question, got his answer, and he's clearly not happy with the response, unless of course he made this thread in order to have his own little debate on speech." @ jdseemoreglass
Is this not my free speech and should be encouraged? My honest answer- I think better than reporting players is create a forum or thread for it to be discussed to educate each other about the effects of things. I should have put that up there as a poll answer. Sorry if you feel otherwise. Either way, I'd say it's better than not caring at all.
Technically no, not if you're trolling. TeamLiquid does ban people for racism, intolerance, trolling, and being terrible to each other. Have you read the TLnet Ten Commandments?
There is no reason to demand or expect the same thing on bnet. Hell, have you seen their forums?!
On July 12 2011 11:20 sailorferret wrote: One last thing- If "Okay, he's made comparisons to segregation, slavery, and now somehow pedophilia. At this point, I honestly think the OP is trolling." @ DoubleReed And "the OP asked a question, got his answer, and he's clearly not happy with the response, unless of course he made this thread in order to have his own little debate on speech." @ jdseemoreglass
Is this not my free speech and should be encouraged? My honest answer- I think better than reporting players is create a forum or thread for it to be discussed to educate each other about the effects of things. I should have put that up there as a poll answer. Sorry if you feel otherwise. Either way, I'd say it's better than not caring at all.
Saying that your freedom of speech should be encouraged in a thread where you're trying to censor others. Logical.
28-year-old white supremacist Daren C. Abbey began threatening Marlon Baker at a Boise, Idaho bar because “blacks are not welcome” there. Baker decided to leave but Abbey followed him to his car screaming racist things at him. Abbey then tried to punch him, but little did he know Baker was a champion boxer. Baker knocked him out with one punch. When Abbey woke up, he was arrested and charged with misdemeanor battery and felony malicious harassment.
In SC2 terms:
- Leave him be - Beat him in a straight up game - Save replay - Report to Blizzard - Guy should get suspension
On July 12 2011 11:32 sailorferret wrote: Begs the question if it's stupid shit.
And I posted in hopes of finding a community who cares with ideas of how to better help shape the community we exist within. Sadly, most people did not see it as a problem. The few who did I've been in contact with.
We can all educate each others. And my hope was to learn solutions from you as well. And I also certainly learned a lot in finding out that 70% feel it's not a problem. It gives me some idea of the nature of the community I exist within. Again, I hope we can work together to deal with issues like this and what's posted in the Reddit thread instead of just ignoring it or turning into trolls.
Listen, someone said it earlier in a much more malevolent and angry tone than I will, but I will repeat it. The gamer community is predominantly white males, aka. the demographic that faces the least amount of discrimination. I think I can count on one hand the total amount of times Ive seen a racial slur against whites during my whole career of online gaming. Slurs against gays and minorities, on the other hand...well we all know about that. Basically, your concerns dont really affect most of these guys and they see it really just as a crusade against general BM.
On the other hand, like I stated in my earlier post, even I (as a minority) dont really see this as a big deal. People saying bigoted things online isnt really a news flash nor is it a threat. Honestly, what people say online are things they already feel. There are no new feelings being created and there is no threat that it will somehow "spill out" into real society and create a new wave of racism. Despite their verbal attacks, no one can really bar you from playing games based on your race. The fact that everyone is anonymous online will just get people to say mean things. Correct me if Im wrong, but I dont see any of the harsh language affecting real life society in any way. I dont know why you are so passionate about this
i have only ever had issues with ethnic people when they have a) displayed a hate for others b) have tried to entice me to hate others c) have involved me in their religious activities
just throwing that out there
not got a problem with ethnics but do have a problem with religions
On July 12 2011 11:56 Coraz wrote: freedom of speech as defined in the constitution refers to limiting the power of government to suppress what citizens say
you can ban whoever whenever for any reason in your cool private forum, or on your privtely owned proprietary bnet game.
also props to the guy who said the Ten Commandments ((:
God's Law is where we laid the foundation of our Constitution
everyone in this thread should go read the bill of rights right now
private individuals have the RIGHT to exclude you based on your speech, or behavior
Where the fuck did you get the fact that the constitution is based on the Ten Commandments? Aside from the fact we live in an online community where not everyone is from the same country. Although I do agree that there is a difference between a private and public place. Government has no say as to what people that own private stuff exclude, well most of the time.
On July 12 2011 09:21 shabby wrote: Not an issue. Freedom of speech trumps all. If you don't like it, don't read it. You can ignore, block, filter, whatever. This is no different anywhere else on the internet, people are who they are, and there will always be hate, misunderstood jokes, discrimination, angry people and so on - especially when you can be anonymouse on the internet. It's naive to think you can moderate it on such a large scale as battle.net, and there will never be an agreement to do it in the first place. It's doing no harm apart from hurting your feelings, and only because you let it. Use the filter!
Freedom of speech doesn't even apply in this case. Blizzard can do what they want.
my opinion on this is that its the internet really. you play a mature rated video game where people win and lose. Where there are losers, there are people who rage. When you rage you say things you dont mean and if you are a jerk then you probably act like that in public anyways. there is no reason for getting angry or upset in dealing with these people as telling blizzard to make people stop saying bad things will never work. its like telling a teacher that another child has said a bad word. While it may deter him, it will not change his attitude nor change the fact that there are people that use offensive language in the world. Part of learning to be an adult is to block out people who try to put you down with language and i think that if you don't want to deal with it, you should use the filter on sc
Freedom of speech isn't freedom to be a douchebag, it's so insulting when people stand on freedom of speech as a platform to defend racism/bigotry or other things that actually are NOT ok to say. Slander, Libel, and Threats are a few.
I think this is a problem and being indifferent or not taking action only perpetuates it. I always report people who use racial and homophobic slurs. Just because it's the internet where it's easy to hide in anonymity does not mean we should just throw up our hands and give up. This type of language should be condemned in conversational speech online as well offline.
On July 12 2011 11:56 Coraz wrote: freedom of speech as defined in the constitution refers to limiting the power of government to suppress what citizens say
you can ban whoever whenever for any reason in your cool private forum, or on your privtely owned proprietary bnet game.
also props to the guy who said the Ten Commandments ((:
God's Law is where we laid the foundation of our Constitution
everyone in this thread should go read the bill of rights right now
private individuals have the RIGHT to exclude you based on your speech, or behavior
On July 12 2011 09:06 sailorferret wrote: In response to filtering:
1) New people joining the community will experience the language before they set the filter. 2) The filter doesn't educate the people using problematic language that they should stop using it. 3) Seeing it with *#!*#* or the actual word is more or less the same.
actually the filter is on by default.
Just because i call ppl faggots all the time online or not, doesn't make me an homophobic. Its just a curse word.
There is a dictionary form for that word... where it would just be a bundle of sticks... and has nothing to do with someone being homophobic...
just as "gay" = "happy" in the dictionary...or "full of joy or mirth"
On July 12 2011 09:06 sailorferret wrote: In response to filtering:
1) New people joining the community will experience the language before they set the filter. 2) The filter doesn't educate the people using problematic language that they should stop using it. 3) Seeing it with *#!*#* or the actual word is more or less the same.
The bolded part in particular scares the crap out of me, for reasons I shouldn't even have to articulate.
Words are an expression of thought. You cannot stop people from thinking. Stop trying.
Well, they could just make people use expressions like "double plus good" for "very good" if they wanted to limit expressions of thought...
28-year-old white supremacist Daren C. Abbey began threatening Marlon Baker at a Boise, Idaho bar because “blacks are not welcome” there. Baker decided to leave but Abbey followed him to his car screaming racist things at him. Abbey then tried to punch him, but little did he know Baker was a champion boxer. Baker knocked him out with one punch. When Abbey woke up, he was arrested and charged with misdemeanor battery and felony malicious harassment.
In SC2 terms:
- Leave him be - Beat him in a straight up game - Save replay - Report to Blizzard - Guy should get suspension
Retards should be put in their place
You can edit replays and add text that was not found in the game at the time of being played... and then possibly make someone say some expletives/profanity at you and make yourself look innocent...
If it's only a problem if YOU make it a problem who will speak up for the people who it is a problem for? A problem for one is a problem for a whole community.
First they came for the gays and I did not speak up because I was not gay Then they came for the jews and I did not speak up because I was not a jew Then they came for the blacks and I did not speak up because I was not black Then they came for me and no one was left to speak up
It's a rough quote from a famous poem that I don't have the cite for off hand. But you get the idea.
How many? Ten thousand strong at least. WHAT!? Ten thousand?! That can't be right. It is an army bred for a single purpose: to destroy the world of men. They will be here by nightfall. First they came for the dwarves and I did not speak up because I was not dwarf Then they came for the elves and I did not speak up because I was not a elf Then they came for the ents and I did not speak up because I was not ent Then they came for me and no one was left to speak up Let them come. Let them come!
So in other words we don't have to do anything about it, as the policing of anonymous discriminatory discourse in an environment in which the offender perceives him/herself as safe from normative anti-discriminatory social reprobation inevitably breeds further discrimination in transmutated forms that are potentially less asinine and thus more deleterious (i.e. going out and killing an elf under cover of darkness).
On July 12 2011 12:35 sylverfyre wrote: Freedom of speech isn't freedom to be a douchebag, it's so insulting when people stand on freedom of speech as a platform to defend racism/bigotry or other things that actually are NOT ok to say. Slander, Libel, and Threats are a few.
I don't defend racism or bigotry but I think you should be able to be a racist (if you weren't that would be known as thought crime) and if you're only a bigot through speech, yes freedom of speech does defend your right to be that. That doesn't mean private organizations can't discriminate against racists and bigots. Personally, I openly discriminate against racists, bigots and socialists.
On July 12 2011 12:35 sylverfyre wrote: Freedom of speech isn't freedom to be a douchebag, it's so insulting when people stand on freedom of speech as a platform to defend racism/bigotry or other things that actually are NOT ok to say. Slander, Libel, and Threats are a few.
I don't defend racism or bigotry but I think you should be able to be a racist (if you weren't that would be known as thought crime) and if you're only a bigot through speech, yes freedom of speech does defend your right to be that. That doesn't mean private organizations can't discriminate against racists and bigots. Personally, I openly discriminate against racists, bigots and socialists.
Them's fightin' words. Personally I openly discriminate against people who openly discriminate against people. Private organizations, when large enough, aren't any different from the state. Therefore discrimination against racists and bigots by private organizations can constitute Orwellian thought policing. If people aren't allowed the freedom to say fag on BNet, that's a dangerous step towards socialism.
Don't cheese, don't get BM'd - No issue? All that aside the level of BM in sc2 is so low compared to other communities e.g CounterStrike back in the day or HoN today and it never caused any problems then so frankly I don't see what the issue is. If someone BM's you just ignore them if you really have to but I don't see how someone on the internet calling you a F*cking F*aggot is actually offensive unless you are really insecure or something. I mean if that gets you try logging on to the competitive CS scene, I'm sure there you will build the skillset to deal with it.
Oh yea and: "What is this TeamSupportGroup?" - mahnini
On July 12 2011 12:35 sylverfyre wrote: Freedom of speech isn't freedom to be a douchebag, it's so insulting when people stand on freedom of speech as a platform to defend racism/bigotry or other things that actually are NOT ok to say. Slander, Libel, and Threats are a few.
I don't defend racism or bigotry but I think you should be able to be a racist (if you weren't that would be known as thought crime) and if you're only a bigot through speech, yes freedom of speech does defend your right to be that. That doesn't mean private organizations can't discriminate against racists and bigots. Personally, I openly discriminate against racists, bigots and socialists.
Them's fightin' words. Personally I openly discriminate against people who openly discriminate against people. Private organizations, when large enough, aren't any different from the state. Therefore discrimination against racists and bigots by private organizations can constitute Orwellian thought policing. If people aren't allowed the freedom to say fag on BNet, that's a dangerous step towards socialism.
HEY!
We don't take kindly to people who don't take kindly.
On July 12 2011 12:35 sylverfyre wrote: Freedom of speech isn't freedom to be a douchebag, it's so insulting when people stand on freedom of speech as a platform to defend racism/bigotry or other things that actually are NOT ok to say. Slander, Libel, and Threats are a few.
I don't defend racism or bigotry but I think you should be able to be a racist (if you weren't that would be known as thought crime) and if you're only a bigot through speech, yes freedom of speech does defend your right to be that. That doesn't mean private organizations can't discriminate against racists and bigots. Personally, I openly discriminate against racists, bigots and socialists.
Them's fightin' words. Personally I openly discriminate against people who openly discriminate against people. Private organizations, when large enough, aren't any different from the state. Therefore discrimination against racists and bigots by private organizations can constitute Orwellian thought policing. If people aren't allowed the freedom to say fag on BNet, that's a dangerous step towards socialism.
That's just slang anyways... and they have nothing to do with the denotative meanings...
Although newspeak would work if people really wanted that...just remove the words with negative meanings and replace them with "big no like" for "hate" it would even simplify things for people...
Steam has a Mute function built in for games like TF2 and such ( and CSS possibly? / haven't logged in for awhile )
On July 12 2011 13:21 Gfox wrote: I mean if that gets you try logging on to the competitive CS scene, I'm sure there you will build the skillset to deal with it.
those were good times, where we thought it was nothing/friendly banter when we were called faggots by our own teammates for ruining their ace, or doing a bad flash.
On July 12 2011 13:21 Gfox wrote: I mean if that gets you try logging on to the competitive CS scene, I'm sure there you will build the skillset to deal with it.
those were good times, where we thought it was nothing/friendly banter when we were called faggots by our own teammates for ruining their ace, or doing a bad flash.
Yea exactly, or like if you missed a frag you were the god honest worst F*ucking player in the entire #$#*&$ world and should go and $#(*$&# your 'nan' since blablabla. This not coming from your own team but still.
There again with a background in competitive CS I honestly don't care what people rage-type at me, most of the time I just lol - which frankly is the only thing you can do. If you get butthurt by people on the internet calling you names I think some of you have serious issues....
Honestly, I think people just need to learn to not take it personally; it's just idiotic people raging and taking their anger out on whoever is available at the moment. I don't expect Blizzard to do anything about it, and I don't think it's their problem.
Sure, some people would have a better experience online (and others the opposite. I love seeing my opponent rage), but this is the internet, and it's near impossible to regulate it the way some people wish. If you get butthurt by seeing crap like that on the internet, chances are you probably get butthurt all the time in person too, so it's only just touching on the actual matter at hand.
techincally aren't we all discriminating against racists, why can't they exist... The whole argument is hipocritical, you believe that the fact that you think something is right and something is wrong and now the majority thinks that you must be right.
Fact is, thats how racism usto work in slave days and the majority ruled that way, so you feed the cycle to continue discriminating on the minority, which in this case is the racists.
It's wrong, but its there choice, freedom of will, and if they aren't threatening then its fine.
On July 12 2011 13:50 Grobyc wrote: Honestly, I think people just need to learn to not take it personally; it's just idiotic people raging and taking their anger out on whoever is available at the moment. I don't expect Blizzard to do anything about it, and I don't think it's their problem.
Sure, some people would have a better experience online (and others the opposite. I love seeing my opponent rage), but this is the internet, and it's near impossible to regulate it the way some people wish. If you get butthurt by seeing crap like that on the internet, chances are you probably get butthurt all the time in person too, so it's only just touching on the actual matter at hand.
I don't think anybody seriously believes we can regulate discrimination away, but can we stop taking the attitude that it's okay to be a hateful dick to people, even if it's just the internet?
On July 12 2011 13:50 Grobyc wrote: Honestly, I think people just need to learn to not take it personally; it's just idiotic people raging and taking their anger out on whoever is available at the moment. I don't expect Blizzard to do anything about it, and I don't think it's their problem.
Sure, some people would have a better experience online (and others the opposite. I love seeing my opponent rage), but this is the internet, and it's near impossible to regulate it the way some people wish. If you get butthurt by seeing crap like that on the internet, chances are you probably get butthurt all the time in person too, so it's only just touching on the actual matter at hand.
I don't think anybody seriously believes we can regulate discrimination away, but can we stop taking the attitude that it's okay to be a hateful dick to people, even if it's just the internet?
Why should people be forced to put on a fake persona of niceness just because them being a dick doesn't conform to your ideal of what is "okay".
Freedom of speech. Freedom of expression.
You don't have the right to oppress people just because they don't fit in with your ideal of how everyone should act.
If you cheese someone or use a strategy that someone finds oppressive or abusive to their own gameplay, it makes sense that they are going to bash you with words. They can't respond by punishing you in the game, so they use their only method of retaliation. If someone cheeses me I'm going to harass them verbally because I don't have any other way of getting back at them for their dickish move other than a regame. Which I offer every single time I go off on someone. The whole getting upset over the word "faggot" just baffles me though. Words like that are culturally relative. No one I know actually uses the word faggot to insult homosexual people... It's usually just their go to word to insult someone who is acting in a way they don't like. I thought the South Park episode actually did a good job explaining it.
The first thing that came to mind when I saw this was all the racist shit you hear on battle.net. That and when you get invited to the nazi channels when you are playing a game. Why is that even supposed to be funny? Everybody is saying freedom of speech this and that, but you cant legally walk up to a black guy, look him dead in the eye and say "you nigger" nowadays. Kids toss words around like that on bnet like its nothing, but i guess its better to just close your eyes, plug your ears, and ignore it than deal with it.
These people (probably) don't know your gender, race or sexual affiliation. If you get upset about them calling you a "faggot" or "nigger", why? Its basically just them saying "i hate you", not "black people suck" or whatever.
On July 12 2011 13:50 Grobyc wrote: Honestly, I think people just need to learn to not take it personally; it's just idiotic people raging and taking their anger out on whoever is available at the moment. I don't expect Blizzard to do anything about it, and I don't think it's their problem.
Sure, some people would have a better experience online (and others the opposite. I love seeing my opponent rage), but this is the internet, and it's near impossible to regulate it the way some people wish. If you get butthurt by seeing crap like that on the internet, chances are you probably get butthurt all the time in person too, so it's only just touching on the actual matter at hand.
I don't think anybody seriously believes we can regulate discrimination away, but can we stop taking the attitude that it's okay to be a hateful dick to people, even if it's just the internet?
Where did I say it's okay to be a hateful dick to people in my post? I just said people need to learn to not take it personally.
discriminatory words seem to be a go to thing when in the throws of gaming passion/rage. Not a lot of words carry the same kind of weight as racial slurs or derogatory sexuality terms. In order to fill this occasional vocabulary void I came up with a beautiful solution in which I supplement a harsh 'noob' when most people would use gay or 'casual' when many would resort to faggot. Being black i'm not really ever tempted to drop N bombs but the same principle applies. Try replacing some of those insensitive words which don't actually mean what you're trying to convey with some gamer terms that have some of that emotion and rage behind them. If you do it for a week you may never go back.
When it comes to dealing w/ these words to me it's not a big deal. Destiny referenced me in his talks about 'esports language' and it's true. Even being black its annoying that something like nigger is still one of the most common words but I never really take it personally. It's just not a big deal. People like words that shock when they are angry and the internet is probably the easiest place to use them but if I hear it it typically means I just beat them soundly so i just laugh it off and continue pwning noobs.
On July 12 2011 13:50 Grobyc wrote: Honestly, I think people just need to learn to not take it personally; it's just idiotic people raging and taking their anger out on whoever is available at the moment. I don't expect Blizzard to do anything about it, and I don't think it's their problem.
Sure, some people would have a better experience online (and others the opposite. I love seeing my opponent rage), but this is the internet, and it's near impossible to regulate it the way some people wish. If you get butthurt by seeing crap like that on the internet, chances are you probably get butthurt all the time in person too, so it's only just touching on the actual matter at hand.
I don't think anybody seriously believes we can regulate discrimination away, but can we stop taking the attitude that it's okay to be a hateful dick to people, even if it's just the internet?
Where did I say it's okay to be a hateful dick to people in my post? I just said people need to learn to not take it personally.
You are by dismissing people who actually are affected by hateful and discriminatory speech as merely "butthurt"
So your argument is gaming comunities should be educated into talking less trash because some people might get emo over it and do stupid shit.
If anything they should take a lesson in life from this and understand you have to put up with that kind of crap all your life, if you can't even handle a kid cussing at you in a game you need practice. Because there's alot worse then that coming later in life.
ppl only called me 3 things by now: - faggot... and meh, i kind play fagish in those games usually so... good for them, i still won ;d -nigger... it doesn't seem like an insult to me, its just saying that i am less likely to develop skin cancer and that my dicx is bigger then the avg on this planet -jew... which again doesn't seem like an insult... more like a compliment considering how much the Jewish ppl achieved and how much they helped at shaping the world as we know it.
If you get offended that bad by this kind of insults as to make a post on tl ( a post that is kind of rageish, no offense ) then you might lack 2 certain objects in between your legs. Also why is this general OT ? Its related to sc2/gaming.
On July 12 2011 12:35 sylverfyre wrote: Freedom of speech isn't freedom to be a douchebag, it's so insulting when people stand on freedom of speech as a platform to defend racism/bigotry or other things that actually are NOT ok to say. Slander, Libel, and Threats are a few.
Freedom of speech IS freedom to be a douchebag. That's the whole point of freedom of speech - so that you can't be censured simply for saying something unpopular.
To paraphrase Ron Paul, 'We don't have freedom of speech so we can talk about the weather. We have freedom of speech so we can say controversial things.'
On July 12 2011 15:55 Aterons_toss wrote: ppl only called me 3 things by now: - faggot... and meh, i kind play fagish in those games usually so... good for them, i still won ;d -nigger... it doesn't seem like an insult to me, its just saying that i am less likely to develop skin cancer and that my dicx is bigger then the avg on this planet -jew... which again doesn't seem like an insult... more like a compliment considering how much the Jewish ppl achieved and how much they helped at shaping the world as we know it.
If you get offended that bad by this kind of insults as to make a post on tl ( a post that is kind of rageish, no offense ) then you might lack 2 certain objects in between your legs. Also why is this general OT ? Its related to sc2/gaming.
Yeah yeah, sticks and stones...i get it and i agree. Words online are among the most ignorable things in the world.
But if you think those insults are insignificant, then I know for a fact that you arent gay, black, or jewish. You are probably yet another white guy who has no idea what its like to have people telling you that you are inferior because of the way you were born. And the fact that you attack someones manhood because of your utter ignorance is just classless
How do you deal with discriminatory language? Just ignore it. They are idiots and if you can't ignore idiots then your life will be miserable, because world is full of them.
there's a filter, use it if you care. Also faggot/gay/n*gger (fill in the vowel! its not 'i') has nothing to do with being homosexual on the internet imo. It's just calling somebody unpleasant/annoying/etc. who cares?
Respond with maturity - they have nothing up against you. Let them get under your skin and they've already won. Let their own lack of responsibility and sense be their own downfall to their future. Gah, slippery slope logic.
Hi, I am a young heterosexual white pseudo-christian male, as most people posting here.
The only issue quite frankly that I have with this sort of thing is that it becomes normal to associate a negative image to a state of being.
The problem with calling somebody a "faggot" in game isn't so much that the person could feel offended by it, as it is that it's implicitely associating "homosexual" to "being bad at something".
Also faggot/gay/n*gger (fill in the vowel! its not 'i') has nothing to do with being homosexual on the internet imo. It's just calling somebody unpleasant/annoying/etc. who cares?
If I were a homosexual or a black person, or hell even as myself, I feel offended that for some people, gay=annoying, or n*****=unpleasant. The latter is even worse seeing that it is strongly connotated with racism and can be seen as a reference to slavery.
What to do about it? Curl up in a ball and cry for humanity I'd say. No use in reporting them or banning them, it's not going to change the way they think nor is it going to induce self-criticism on assimilated semantics. It's just going to make them rage even more and call the guy who reports them or bans them a f*kin fag n****
Boycott streams that use this sort of language perhaps would be a start, although for an immense majority this is quite the non-issue. But that's easy for me to say, as P all I need is my darling duckloadgodballerwhiteRa.
Hi, I am a young heterosexual white pseudo-christian male, as most people posting here.
The only issue quite frankly that I have with this sort of thing is that it becomes normal to associate a negative image to a state of being.
The problem with calling somebody a "faggot" in game isn't so much that the person could feel offended by it, as it is that it's implicitely associating "homosexual" to "being bad at something".
Also faggot/gay/n*gger (fill in the vowel! its not 'i') has nothing to do with being homosexual on the internet imo. It's just calling somebody unpleasant/annoying/etc. who cares?
If I were a homosexual or a black person, or hell even as myself, I feel offended that for some people, gay=annoying, or n*****=unpleasant. The latter is even worse seeing that it is strongly connotated with racism and can be seen as a reference to slavery.
What to do about it? Curl up in a ball and cry for humanity I'd say. No use in reporting them or banning them, it's not going to change the way they think nor is it going to induce self-criticism on assimilated semantics. It's just going to make them rage even more and call the guy who reports them or bans them a f*kin fag n****
Boycott streams that use this sort of language perhaps would be a start, although for an immense majority this is quite the non-issue. But that's easy for me to say, as P all I need is my darling duckloadgodballerwhiteRa.
But those words literally don't mean they're that they're "homosexuals"...
On July 12 2011 16:18 Mykill wrote: there's a filter, use it if you care. Also faggot/gay/n*gger (fill in the vowel! its not 'i') has nothing to do with being homosexual on the internet imo. It's just calling somebody unpleasant/annoying/etc. who cares?
pretty much just "unpleasant/annoying" as a slang than its true meaning...
thou + any of these... /thrall/base/cringing worm would also work... or foul+knave...
Words like "fag" or "gay" are primarily used to designate homosexuals. There's a reason for which these words and not others were used to designate bad players/cheesers/all-iners.
Even if it has become a slang and has been normalised doesn't mean it's still fine to use them. It's just that people don't realise that to a certain minority, the use of such language is offensive.
In other words if you are a homosexual, you cheese a dude and he calls you "fkin fag", even if he means "your play is annoying", textually it's still "you play like a gay person, in other words very bad", and as a member of the targetted community you can and probably will feel legitimately offended.
You can also see it this way. It's unfair to gay people that "gay" is used to designate bad play. Why isn't the word "hetero" used instead? Quite frankly the only reason is that the gaming community has been and to a certain extent still is homophobic and homophobic rants have normalised into everyday language.
The problem with calling somebody a "faggot" in game isn't so much that the person could feel offended by it, as it is that it's implicitely associating "homosexual" to "being bad at something".
No, by calling somebody a faggot you are associating homosexuality with intelligence, honesty, red hair, siamese cats, and spaghetti.
Do you see the flaw in your argument now? You can fill in the blank with anything because you aren't actually associating homosexual with anything other than your opponent.
The problem with calling somebody a "faggot" in game isn't so much that the person could feel offended by it, as it is that it's implicitely associating "homosexual" to "being bad at something".
No, by calling somebody a faggot you are associating homosexuality with intelligence, honesty, red hair, siamese cats, and spaghetti.
Do you see the flaw in your argument now? You can fill in the blank with anything because you aren't actually associating homosexual with anything other than your opponent.
There are no flaws in my arguments
You don't say "you fag" when you compliment somebody on their test results. You say it negatively, or at least that's the cultural norm.
And I hope when you call your opponent a fag it's because you think he played bad, and not just because you think he's a homosexual. Or else it becomes plain ridiculous, "you banshee rushed me, you must like other men! Not that there's anything wrong with it" as Seinfeld would say.
its the internet, if you think that's bad, try call of duty, i think it is the scum of the internet that plays it you cant get a game without being insulted on 1) your sexual orientation, 2) your race, 3) your religion, or 4) your anatomy
On July 12 2011 17:59 Malyce wrote: Words like "fag" or "gay" are primarily used to designate homosexuals. There's a reason for which these words and not others were used to designate bad players/cheesers/all-iners.
Even if it has become a slang and has been normalised doesn't mean it's still fine to use them. It's just that people don't realise that to a certain minority, the use of such language is offensive.
In other words if you are a homosexual, you cheese a dude and he calls you "fkin fag", even if he means "your play is annoying", textually it's still "you play like a gay person, in other words very bad", and as a member of the targetted community you can and probably will feel legitimately offended.
You can also see it this way. It's unfair to gay people that "gay" is used to designate bad play. Why isn't the word "hetero" used instead? Quite frankly the only reason is that the gaming community has been and to a certain extent still is homophobic and homophobic rants have normalised into everyday language.
But those "gay" people are also "full of joy or mirth" which is basically what the word means... unless you meant the slang form of it...it'd be completely different... "full of joy or mirth" at the time of origin
i dont understand if people get offended by cuss words why do they turn off the mature language filter.
im sure it is pretty similar in any western country, but growing up in australia swearing practically becomes a complete non-factor by the time you hit adulthood
On July 12 2011 17:59 Malyce wrote: Words like "fag" or "gay" are primarily used to designate homosexuals. There's a reason for which these words and not others were used to designate bad players/cheesers/all-iners.
Even if it has become a slang and has been normalised doesn't mean it's still fine to use them. It's just that people don't realise that to a certain minority, the use of such language is offensive.
In other words if you are a homosexual, you cheese a dude and he calls you "fkin fag", even if he means "your play is annoying", textually it's still "you play like a gay person, in other words very bad", and as a member of the targetted community you can and probably will feel legitimately offended.
You can also see it this way. It's unfair to gay people that "gay" is used to designate bad play. Why isn't the word "hetero" used instead? Quite frankly the only reason is that the gaming community has been and to a certain extent still is homophobic and homophobic rants have normalised into everyday language.
But those "gay" people are also "full of joy or mirth" which is basically what the word means... unless you meant the slang form of it...it'd be completely different... "full of joy or mirth" at the time of origin
When people began using the word in videogames, or in general as an insult, they weren't referring to "full of joy". They were referring to the homosexuality.
Basically when we pick up these insults today, we're recycling the heritage of our homophobic forefathers. Just like the "n" word with the heritage of former slave owners. Not a heritage I'd like to pick up.
Edit: Velr my Swiss comrade, you have been contaminated! But quite frankly I just don't the idea that what used to be an insult (or still is for some people) has become sooooo overused that nobody even cares where it comes from anymore, except for the community targeted by it.
On July 12 2011 15:55 Aterons_toss wrote: ppl only called me 3 things by now: - faggot... and meh, i kind play fagish in those games usually so... good for them, i still won ;d -nigger... it doesn't seem like an insult to me, its just saying that i am less likely to develop skin cancer and that my dicx is bigger then the avg on this planet -jew... which again doesn't seem like an insult... more like a compliment considering how much the Jewish ppl achieved and how much they helped at shaping the world as we know it.
If you get offended that bad by this kind of insults as to make a post on tl ( a post that is kind of rageish, no offense ) then you might lack 2 certain objects in between your legs. Also why is this general OT ? Its related to sc2/gaming.
Yeah yeah, sticks and stones...i get it and i agree. Words online are among the most ignorable things in the world.
But if you think those insults are insignificant, then I know for a fact that you arent gay, black, or jewish. You are probably yet another white guy who has no idea what its like to have people telling you that you are inferior because of the way you were born. And the fact that you attack someones manhood because of your utter ignorance is just classless
getting tired of people talking down about my race just because my grandparents weren't slaves.. Fuck your words!
Some white people are born ugly, or stupid, or unusually smart, or ginger and these people all get put down all their life because they aren't "normal" But people learn to deal with it.
"I'm offended"... okay... be offended? it's not that bad..
If you get offended by something someone says on the internet then i suggest you become Amish or at least get rid of your computer, you're always going to get someone who will offend you it's a part of life - if you're offended nothing actually happens...
- watch that, it pretty much sums up being offended...
People need to grow some thick skin in my honest opinion because i don't know how they expect to go through life without someone saying something upsetting or offensive and them not being able to cope with it, honestly when i read these posts i just think "grow up for crying out loud its only words"
The problem with calling somebody a "faggot" in game isn't so much that the person could feel offended by it, as it is that it's implicitely associating "homosexual" to "being bad at something".
No, by calling somebody a faggot you are associating homosexuality with intelligence, honesty, red hair, siamese cats, and spaghetti.
Do you see the flaw in your argument now? You can fill in the blank with anything because you aren't actually associating homosexual with anything other than your opponent.
There are no flaws in my arguments
You don't say "you fag" when you compliment somebody on their test results. You say it negatively, or at least that's the cultural norm.
And I hope when you call your opponent a fag it's because you think he played bad, and not just because you think he's a homosexual. Or else it becomes plain ridiculous, "you banshee rushed me, you must like other men! Not that there's anything wrong with it" as Seinfeld would say.
very strange.. one of my friends used the phrase "grats on your results ya fag!" and gave me a big hug, after our exams a few years ago.. ya fag!
The problem with calling somebody a "faggot" in game isn't so much that the person could feel offended by it, as it is that it's implicitely associating "homosexual" to "being bad at something".
No, by calling somebody a faggot you are associating homosexuality with intelligence, honesty, red hair, siamese cats, and spaghetti.
Do you see the flaw in your argument now? You can fill in the blank with anything because you aren't actually associating homosexual with anything other than your opponent.
There are no flaws in my arguments
You don't say "you fag" when you compliment somebody on their test results. You say it negatively, or at least that's the cultural norm.
And I hope when you call your opponent a fag it's because you think he played bad, and not just because you think he's a homosexual. Or else it becomes plain ridiculous, "you banshee rushed me, you must like other men! Not that there's anything wrong with it" as Seinfeld would say.
very strange.. one of my friends used the phrase "grats on your results ya fag!" and gave me a big hug, after our exams a few years ago.. ya fag!
Then big hearts to your friend!
If everybody used the word that way, the word would be a much better place. We should set a trend, from now on after every game put "gg, wp you beautiful fag <3"
On July 12 2011 17:59 Malyce wrote: Words like "fag" or "gay" are primarily used to designate homosexuals. There's a reason for which these words and not others were used to designate bad players/cheesers/all-iners.
Even if it has become a slang and has been normalised doesn't mean it's still fine to use them. It's just that people don't realise that to a certain minority, the use of such language is offensive.
In other words if you are a homosexual, you cheese a dude and he calls you "fkin fag", even if he means "your play is annoying", textually it's still "you play like a gay person, in other words very bad", and as a member of the targetted community you can and probably will feel legitimately offended.
You can also see it this way. It's unfair to gay people that "gay" is used to designate bad play. Why isn't the word "hetero" used instead? Quite frankly the only reason is that the gaming community has been and to a certain extent still is homophobic and homophobic rants have normalised into everyday language.
But those "gay" people are also "full of joy or mirth" which is basically what the word means... unless you meant the slang form of it...it'd be completely different... "full of joy or mirth" at the time of origin
When people began using the word in videogames, or in general as an insult, they weren't referring to "full of joy". They were referring to the homosexuality.
Basically when we pick up these insults today, we're recycling the heritage of our homophobic forefathers. Just like the "n" word with the heritage of former slave owners. Not a heritage I'd like to pick up.
You guys are hard to argue/discuss things with. Too narrow view on how people use words. Too many assumptions.
If you think you know why people use these words. Then you highly assumptive. Just be humble and inquisitive. At least then you would be willing to learn from the world.
Tip: Everyone is an individual. 2 people can say the same thing, both with completely different reasons and emotions.
Lastly, You know not these people on the internet.
The problem with calling somebody a "faggot" in game isn't so much that the person could feel offended by it, as it is that it's implicitely associating "homosexual" to "being bad at something".
No, by calling somebody a faggot you are associating homosexuality with intelligence, honesty, red hair, siamese cats, and spaghetti.
Do you see the flaw in your argument now? You can fill in the blank with anything because you aren't actually associating homosexual with anything other than your opponent.
There are no flaws in my arguments
You don't say "you fag" when you compliment somebody on their test results. You say it negatively, or at least that's the cultural norm.
And I hope when you call your opponent a fag it's because you think he played bad, and not just because you think he's a homosexual. Or else it becomes plain ridiculous, "you banshee rushed me, you must like other men! Not that there's anything wrong with it" as Seinfeld would say.
very strange.. one of my friends used the phrase "grats on your results ya fag!" and gave me a big hug, after our exams a few years ago.. ya fag!
Then big hearts to your friend!
If everybody used the word that way, the word would be a much better place. We should set a trend, from now on after every game put "gg, wp you beautiful fag <3"
I don't have a problem with people calling me a nigger, a faggot or a jew. These are just plain insults that you hear everyday. There is nothing bad in being black, gay or jewish, so I don't get offended by it. The same goes for other insults like nerd, commie, etc. I either just block them or enjoy them raging around (if they're raging around at not just insulting me for no reason)
I do however make sure that people calling me a nazi get punished in some way, because that is more than just a plain insult.
On July 12 2011 17:59 Malyce wrote: Words like "fag" or "gay" are primarily used to designate homosexuals. There's a reason for which these words and not others were used to designate bad players/cheesers/all-iners.
Even if it has become a slang and has been normalised doesn't mean it's still fine to use them. It's just that people don't realise that to a certain minority, the use of such language is offensive.
In other words if you are a homosexual, you cheese a dude and he calls you "fkin fag", even if he means "your play is annoying", textually it's still "you play like a gay person, in other words very bad", and as a member of the targetted community you can and probably will feel legitimately offended.
You can also see it this way. It's unfair to gay people that "gay" is used to designate bad play. Why isn't the word "hetero" used instead? Quite frankly the only reason is that the gaming community has been and to a certain extent still is homophobic and homophobic rants have normalised into everyday language.
But those "gay" people are also "full of joy or mirth" which is basically what the word means... unless you meant the slang form of it...it'd be completely different... "full of joy or mirth" at the time of origin
When people began using the word in videogames, or in general as an insult, they weren't referring to "full of joy". They were referring to the homosexuality.
Basically when we pick up these insults today, we're recycling the heritage of our homophobic forefathers. Just like the "n" word with the heritage of former slave owners. Not a heritage I'd like to pick up.
You guys are hard to argue/discuss things with. Too narrow view on how people use words. Too many assumptions.
If you think you know why people use these words. Then you highly assumptive. Just be humble and inquisitive. At least then you would be willing to learn from the world.
Tip: Everyone is an individual. 2 people can say the same thing, both with completely different reasons and emotions.
Lastly, You know not these people on the internet.
Sure when you use the word "fag" you don't mean to bash on a certain group of people, just on your opponent. And it would be fine if that was an objective way to see it.
Thing is words aren't neutral, they have a history, and the reason "gay" is used as an insult has a pretty bad history. Maybe not for you, but why would you want to hurt somebody who has had to live through discrimination for being gay?
There are litteraly hundreds of words you can use to evacuate your frustration, why use those that bear a difficult past for some groups of people? It's easy to change.
Sure everyone is an individual, but everyone is also capable of empathy. Why offend people when you can chose not to do so?
Edit Zetter: perhaps you feel particularly offended by that word because you're german? All these words offend different people, so project the feeling you get when called nazi to a gay person called faggot, it's roughly the same.
On July 12 2011 17:59 Malyce wrote: Words like "fag" or "gay" are primarily used to designate homosexuals. There's a reason for which these words and not others were used to designate bad players/cheesers/all-iners.
Even if it has become a slang and has been normalised doesn't mean it's still fine to use them. It's just that people don't realise that to a certain minority, the use of such language is offensive.
In other words if you are a homosexual, you cheese a dude and he calls you "fkin fag", even if he means "your play is annoying", textually it's still "you play like a gay person, in other words very bad", and as a member of the targetted community you can and probably will feel legitimately offended.
You can also see it this way. It's unfair to gay people that "gay" is used to designate bad play. Why isn't the word "hetero" used instead? Quite frankly the only reason is that the gaming community has been and to a certain extent still is homophobic and homophobic rants have normalised into everyday language.
But those "gay" people are also "full of joy or mirth" which is basically what the word means... unless you meant the slang form of it...it'd be completely different... "full of joy or mirth" at the time of origin
When people began using the word in videogames, or in general as an insult, they weren't referring to "full of joy". They were referring to the homosexuality.
Basically when we pick up these insults today, we're recycling the heritage of our homophobic forefathers. Just like the "n" word with the heritage of former slave owners. Not a heritage I'd like to pick up.
You guys are hard to argue/discuss things with. Too narrow view on how people use words. Too many assumptions.
If you think you know why people use these words. Then you highly assumptive. Just be humble and inquisitive. At least then you would be willing to learn from the world.
Tip: Everyone is an individual. 2 people can say the same thing, both with completely different reasons and emotions.
Lastly, You know not these people on the internet.
Sure when you use the word "fag" you don't mean to bash on a certain group of people, just on your opponent. And it would be fine if that was an objective way to see it.
Thing is words aren't neutral, they have a history, and the reason "gay" is used as an insult has a pretty bad history. Maybe not for you, but why would you want to hurt somebody who has had to live through discrimination for being gay?
There are litteraly hundreds of words you can use to evacuate your frustration, why use those that bear a difficult past for some groups of people? It's easy to change.
Sure everyone is an individual, but everyone is also capable of empathy. Why offend people when you can chose not to do so?
Edit Zetter: perhaps you feel particularly offended by that word because you're german? All these words offend different people, so project the feeling you get when called nazi to a gay person called faggot, it's roughly the same.
The Nazi's did something terribly terribly wrong. The gays didnt. It's coooooooooommmmmmmmmpletely different
On July 12 2011 18:36 Malyce wrote: Edit Zetter: perhaps you feel particularly offended by that word because you're german? All these words offend different people, so project the feeling you get when called nazi to a gay person called faggot, it's roughly the same.
No, that's not the problem, because I'm actually gay. Although this could be more of a cultural problem, because there's not that lot of discrimination against gays in Germany, as it is in other countries.
But my point was that there is nothing bad in being gay, while there is something more than bad in being a nazi.
On July 12 2011 17:59 Malyce wrote: Words like "fag" or "gay" are primarily used to designate homosexuals. There's a reason for which these words and not others were used to designate bad players/cheesers/all-iners.
Even if it has become a slang and has been normalised doesn't mean it's still fine to use them. It's just that people don't realise that to a certain minority, the use of such language is offensive.
In other words if you are a homosexual, you cheese a dude and he calls you "fkin fag", even if he means "your play is annoying", textually it's still "you play like a gay person, in other words very bad", and as a member of the targetted community you can and probably will feel legitimately offended.
You can also see it this way. It's unfair to gay people that "gay" is used to designate bad play. Why isn't the word "hetero" used instead? Quite frankly the only reason is that the gaming community has been and to a certain extent still is homophobic and homophobic rants have normalised into everyday language.
But those "gay" people are also "full of joy or mirth" which is basically what the word means... unless you meant the slang form of it...it'd be completely different... "full of joy or mirth" at the time of origin
When people began using the word in videogames, or in general as an insult, they weren't referring to "full of joy". They were referring to the homosexuality.
Basically when we pick up these insults today, we're recycling the heritage of our homophobic forefathers. Just like the "n" word with the heritage of former slave owners. Not a heritage I'd like to pick up.
You guys are hard to argue/discuss things with. Too narrow view on how people use words. Too many assumptions.
If you think you know why people use these words. Then you highly assumptive. Just be humble and inquisitive. At least then you would be willing to learn from the world.
Tip: Everyone is an individual. 2 people can say the same thing, both with completely different reasons and emotions.
Lastly, You know not these people on the internet.
Sure when you use the word "fag" you don't mean to bash on a certain group of people, just on your opponent. And it would be fine if that was an objective way to see it.
Thing is words aren't neutral, they have a history, and the reason "gay" is used as an insult has a pretty bad history. Maybe not for you, but why would you want to hurt somebody who has had to live through discrimination for being gay?
There are litteraly hundreds of words you can use to evacuate your frustration, why use those that bear a difficult past for some groups of people? It's easy to change.
Sure everyone is an individual, but everyone is also capable of empathy. Why offend people when you can chose not to do so?
Edit Zetter: perhaps you feel particularly offended by that word because you're german? All these words offend different people, so project the feeling you get when called nazi to a gay person called faggot, it's roughly the same.
The Nazi's did something terribly terribly wrong. The gays didnt. It's coooooooooommmmmmmmmpletely different
It's similar in the fact that when somebody calls you a nazi, he's not actually calling you a nazi, just using it as an insult. When someone calls you faggot, he's not actually calling you gay, it's used as an insult. What makes people uneasy is the history of the actual word, not the intended meaning by the insulter.
Glad you see my point though =)
Zetter: ya guess you're lucky to have grown up in that environment
On July 12 2011 17:59 Malyce wrote: Words like "fag" or "gay" are primarily used to designate homosexuals. There's a reason for which these words and not others were used to designate bad players/cheesers/all-iners.
Even if it has become a slang and has been normalised doesn't mean it's still fine to use them. It's just that people don't realise that to a certain minority, the use of such language is offensive.
In other words if you are a homosexual, you cheese a dude and he calls you "fkin fag", even if he means "your play is annoying", textually it's still "you play like a gay person, in other words very bad", and as a member of the targetted community you can and probably will feel legitimately offended.
You can also see it this way. It's unfair to gay people that "gay" is used to designate bad play. Why isn't the word "hetero" used instead? Quite frankly the only reason is that the gaming community has been and to a certain extent still is homophobic and homophobic rants have normalised into everyday language.
But those "gay" people are also "full of joy or mirth" which is basically what the word means... unless you meant the slang form of it...it'd be completely different... "full of joy or mirth" at the time of origin
When people began using the word in videogames, or in general as an insult, they weren't referring to "full of joy". They were referring to the homosexuality.
Basically when we pick up these insults today, we're recycling the heritage of our homophobic forefathers. Just like the "n" word with the heritage of former slave owners. Not a heritage I'd like to pick up.
You guys are hard to argue/discuss things with. Too narrow view on how people use words. Too many assumptions.
If you think you know why people use these words. Then you highly assumptive. Just be humble and inquisitive. At least then you would be willing to learn from the world.
Tip: Everyone is an individual. 2 people can say the same thing, both with completely different reasons and emotions.
Lastly, You know not these people on the internet.
Sure when you use the word "fag" you don't mean to bash on a certain group of people, just on your opponent. And it would be fine if that was an objective way to see it.
Thing is words aren't neutral, they have a history, and the reason "gay" is used as an insult has a pretty bad history. Maybe not for you, but why would you want to hurt somebody who has had to live through discrimination for being gay?
There are litteraly hundreds of words you can use to evacuate your frustration, why use those that bear a difficult past for some groups of people? It's easy to change.
Sure everyone is an individual, but everyone is also capable of empathy. Why offend people when you can chose not to do so?
You are right that words hold a cultural collective meaning. But guess what. It's not the words that are the problem. If we didn't have the words to insult people with. Do you think the discrimination would not exist?
Do you not think that maybe that you are not going to be able to convince the world(or this forum) to change their habits in regards to what words they use to insult people?
No, hell no.(<-Christians offended right here)
But u know what, I love homosexuals, I love Negros, I love Christians. Doesn't make me want to stop using words like gay.
Look if you want to change, just do as you say. And be the change you wish to see in others.
On July 12 2011 18:36 Malyce wrote: Edit Zetter: perhaps you feel particularly offended by that word because you're german? All these words offend different people, so project the feeling you get when called nazi to a gay person called faggot, it's roughly the same.
No, that's not the problem, because I'm actually gay. Although this could be more of a cultural problem, because there's not that lot of discrimination against gays in Germany, as it is in other countries.
But my point was that there is nothing bad in being gay, while there is something more than bad in being a nazi.
I'm glad you're smiling and happy right now, sir. I agree with you. There is nothing wrong with being happy and there shouldn't be a reason for it.
On July 12 2011 17:59 Malyce wrote: Words like "fag" or "gay" are primarily used to designate homosexuals. There's a reason for which these words and not others were used to designate bad players/cheesers/all-iners.
Even if it has become a slang and has been normalised doesn't mean it's still fine to use them. It's just that people don't realise that to a certain minority, the use of such language is offensive.
In other words if you are a homosexual, you cheese a dude and he calls you "fkin fag", even if he means "your play is annoying", textually it's still "you play like a gay person, in other words very bad", and as a member of the targetted community you can and probably will feel legitimately offended.
You can also see it this way. It's unfair to gay people that "gay" is used to designate bad play. Why isn't the word "hetero" used instead? Quite frankly the only reason is that the gaming community has been and to a certain extent still is homophobic and homophobic rants have normalised into everyday language.
But those "gay" people are also "full of joy or mirth" which is basically what the word means... unless you meant the slang form of it...it'd be completely different... "full of joy or mirth" at the time of origin
When people began using the word in videogames, or in general as an insult, they weren't referring to "full of joy". They were referring to the homosexuality.
Basically when we pick up these insults today, we're recycling the heritage of our homophobic forefathers. Just like the "n" word with the heritage of former slave owners. Not a heritage I'd like to pick up.
You guys are hard to argue/discuss things with. Too narrow view on how people use words. Too many assumptions.
If you think you know why people use these words. Then you highly assumptive. Just be humble and inquisitive. At least then you would be willing to learn from the world.
Tip: Everyone is an individual. 2 people can say the same thing, both with completely different reasons and emotions.
Lastly, You know not these people on the internet.
Sure when you use the word "fag" you don't mean to bash on a certain group of people, just on your opponent. And it would be fine if that was an objective way to see it.
Thing is words aren't neutral, they have a history, and the reason "gay" is used as an insult has a pretty bad history. Maybe not for you, but why would you want to hurt somebody who has had to live through discrimination for being gay?
There are litteraly hundreds of words you can use to evacuate your frustration, why use those that bear a difficult past for some groups of people? It's easy to change.
Sure everyone is an individual, but everyone is also capable of empathy. Why offend people when you can chose not to do so?
Edit Zetter: perhaps you feel particularly offended by that word because you're german? All these words offend different people, so project the feeling you get when called nazi to a gay person called faggot, it's roughly the same.
Do you honestly think that a 16 year old playing a game of Starcraft, get's a bit annoyed by his 7th 6pooling opponent is going to think "my opponent might actually be gay" before lashing out with the word fag? There's no more depth in the thought process other than "that's a funny word to use" when a gamer insults someone...
Once again it's people overthinking and using their hypersensitivity to try and censor the population... grow up and grow some thick skin like the rest of us had too...
To quote Steve Hughes - "You want to live in a democracy, but you never want to be offended again...?"
I am not affected in the slightest by rudeness from other players - I really couldn't care less what baseless BS someone I have never met (and will never meet) has to say about me. I'm well aware I'm not the best player on the planet and my ego is not involved; I even frequently ask my opponents for their opinion of my play and where they thought I was weak or could improve, and I don't particularly care wether I receive that feedback politely or through "lol you NOOB you hardly attacked me at all" etc.
-HOWEVER-, I also believe behaving like an ass is completely unacceptable, and I am aware that even though these people do not bother ME, the same may not be true of others they may meet. Just because the environment is anonymous does not somehow excuse or make that kind of behaviour "ok", and I want to play games in an environment with pleasant people, not jackasses. I simply report anyone that is behaving like a dickhead and carry on with my day.
On July 12 2011 17:59 Malyce wrote: Words like "fag" or "gay" are primarily used to designate homosexuals. There's a reason for which these words and not others were used to designate bad players/cheesers/all-iners.
Even if it has become a slang and has been normalised doesn't mean it's still fine to use them. It's just that people don't realise that to a certain minority, the use of such language is offensive.
In other words if you are a homosexual, you cheese a dude and he calls you "fkin fag", even if he means "your play is annoying", textually it's still "you play like a gay person, in other words very bad", and as a member of the targetted community you can and probably will feel legitimately offended.
You can also see it this way. It's unfair to gay people that "gay" is used to designate bad play. Why isn't the word "hetero" used instead? Quite frankly the only reason is that the gaming community has been and to a certain extent still is homophobic and homophobic rants have normalised into everyday language.
But those "gay" people are also "full of joy or mirth" which is basically what the word means... unless you meant the slang form of it...it'd be completely different... "full of joy or mirth" at the time of origin
When people began using the word in videogames, or in general as an insult, they weren't referring to "full of joy". They were referring to the homosexuality.
Basically when we pick up these insults today, we're recycling the heritage of our homophobic forefathers. Just like the "n" word with the heritage of former slave owners. Not a heritage I'd like to pick up.
You guys are hard to argue/discuss things with. Too narrow view on how people use words. Too many assumptions.
If you think you know why people use these words. Then you highly assumptive. Just be humble and inquisitive. At least then you would be willing to learn from the world.
Tip: Everyone is an individual. 2 people can say the same thing, both with completely different reasons and emotions.
Lastly, You know not these people on the internet.
Sure when you use the word "fag" you don't mean to bash on a certain group of people, just on your opponent. And it would be fine if that was an objective way to see it.
Thing is words aren't neutral, they have a history, and the reason "gay" is used as an insult has a pretty bad history. Maybe not for you, but why would you want to hurt somebody who has had to live through discrimination for being gay?
There are litteraly hundreds of words you can use to evacuate your frustration, why use those that bear a difficult past for some groups of people? It's easy to change.
Sure everyone is an individual, but everyone is also capable of empathy. Why offend people when you can chose not to do so?
Edit Zetter: perhaps you feel particularly offended by that word because you're german? All these words offend different people, so project the feeling you get when called nazi to a gay person called faggot, it's roughly the same.
Do you honestly think that a 16 year old playing a game of Starcraft, get's a bit annoyed by his 7th 6pooling opponent is going to think "my opponent might actually be gay" before lashing out with the word fag? There's no more depth in the thought process other than "that's a funny word to use" when a gamer insults someone...
Once again it's people overthinking and using their hypersensitivity to try and censor the population... grow up and grow some thick skin like the rest of us had too...
To quote Steve Hughes - "You want to live in a democracy, but you never want to be offended again...?"
Not the issue.
The point isn't if you are actually referring to gay people or not. The point is that words have a meaning beyond the one you're willing to give them.
You can offend someone unintentionnaly, hell most of the people you offend you probably do so unintentionnaly (at least I hope for your sake). Is it still a reason to do it? If somebody tells you "please don't use the word fag in front of me, it offends me", would you then stop using it? Do you really need to be told?
Democracy means respect for people as equals. Discrimination is not a part of democracy. You can dislike me because you think I'm stupid, arrogant or hypersensitive. Not because I have blue eyes. It's that simple.
On July 12 2011 17:59 Malyce wrote: Words like "fag" or "gay" are primarily used to designate homosexuals. There's a reason for which these words and not others were used to designate bad players/cheesers/all-iners.
Even if it has become a slang and has been normalised doesn't mean it's still fine to use them. It's just that people don't realise that to a certain minority, the use of such language is offensive.
In other words if you are a homosexual, you cheese a dude and he calls you "fkin fag", even if he means "your play is annoying", textually it's still "you play like a gay person, in other words very bad", and as a member of the targetted community you can and probably will feel legitimately offended.
You can also see it this way. It's unfair to gay people that "gay" is used to designate bad play. Why isn't the word "hetero" used instead? Quite frankly the only reason is that the gaming community has been and to a certain extent still is homophobic and homophobic rants have normalised into everyday language.
But those "gay" people are also "full of joy or mirth" which is basically what the word means... unless you meant the slang form of it...it'd be completely different... "full of joy or mirth" at the time of origin
When people began using the word in videogames, or in general as an insult, they weren't referring to "full of joy". They were referring to the homosexuality.
Basically when we pick up these insults today, we're recycling the heritage of our homophobic forefathers. Just like the "n" word with the heritage of former slave owners. Not a heritage I'd like to pick up.
You guys are hard to argue/discuss things with. Too narrow view on how people use words. Too many assumptions.
If you think you know why people use these words. Then you highly assumptive. Just be humble and inquisitive. At least then you would be willing to learn from the world.
Tip: Everyone is an individual. 2 people can say the same thing, both with completely different reasons and emotions.
Lastly, You know not these people on the internet.
Sure when you use the word "fag" you don't mean to bash on a certain group of people, just on your opponent. And it would be fine if that was an objective way to see it.
Thing is words aren't neutral, they have a history, and the reason "gay" is used as an insult has a pretty bad history. Maybe not for you, but why would you want to hurt somebody who has had to live through discrimination for being gay?
There are litteraly hundreds of words you can use to evacuate your frustration, why use those that bear a difficult past for some groups of people? It's easy to change.
Sure everyone is an individual, but everyone is also capable of empathy. Why offend people when you can chose not to do so?
Edit Zetter: perhaps you feel particularly offended by that word because you're german? All these words offend different people, so project the feeling you get when called nazi to a gay person called faggot, it's roughly the same.
Do you honestly think that a 16 year old playing a game of Starcraft, get's a bit annoyed by his 7th 6pooling opponent is going to think "my opponent might actually be gay" before lashing out with the word fag? There's no more depth in the thought process other than "that's a funny word to use" when a gamer insults someone...
Once again it's people overthinking and using their hypersensitivity to try and censor the population... grow up and grow some thick skin like the rest of us had too...
To quote Steve Hughes - "You want to live in a democracy, but you never want to be offended again...?"
Not the issue.
The point isn't if you are actually referring to gay people or not. The point is that words have a meaning beyond the one you're willing to give them.
You can offend someone unintentionnaly, hell most of the people you offend you probably do so unintentionnaly (at least I hope for your sake). Is it still a reason to do it? If somebody tells you "please don't use the word fag in front of me, it offends me", would you then stop using it? Do you really need to be told?
Democracy means respect for people as equals. Discrimination is not a part of democracy. You can dislike me because you think I'm stupid, arrogant or hypersensitive. Not because I have blue eyes. It's that simple.
NO it doesn't!!!!
People are allowed to dislike people with blue eyes. OMG what the hell kind of world do you think you live in??
Edit: Note I'm not saying people are allow to kill/harm others because of not liking their blue eyes. But still, I can say "I don't like you, you have blue eyes" Completely legal. Just like I can say "I don't like you, you are a fag"
It's just words dude, besides your on THE INTERNET. Stop taking stuff personally.
On July 12 2011 17:59 Malyce wrote: Words like "fag" or "gay" are primarily used to designate homosexuals. There's a reason for which these words and not others were used to designate bad players/cheesers/all-iners.
Even if it has become a slang and has been normalised doesn't mean it's still fine to use them. It's just that people don't realise that to a certain minority, the use of such language is offensive.
In other words if you are a homosexual, you cheese a dude and he calls you "fkin fag", even if he means "your play is annoying", textually it's still "you play like a gay person, in other words very bad", and as a member of the targetted community you can and probably will feel legitimately offended.
You can also see it this way. It's unfair to gay people that "gay" is used to designate bad play. Why isn't the word "hetero" used instead? Quite frankly the only reason is that the gaming community has been and to a certain extent still is homophobic and homophobic rants have normalised into everyday language.
But those "gay" people are also "full of joy or mirth" which is basically what the word means... unless you meant the slang form of it...it'd be completely different... "full of joy or mirth" at the time of origin
When people began using the word in videogames, or in general as an insult, they weren't referring to "full of joy". They were referring to the homosexuality.
Basically when we pick up these insults today, we're recycling the heritage of our homophobic forefathers. Just like the "n" word with the heritage of former slave owners. Not a heritage I'd like to pick up.
You guys are hard to argue/discuss things with. Too narrow view on how people use words. Too many assumptions.
If you think you know why people use these words. Then you highly assumptive. Just be humble and inquisitive. At least then you would be willing to learn from the world.
Tip: Everyone is an individual. 2 people can say the same thing, both with completely different reasons and emotions.
Lastly, You know not these people on the internet.
Sure when you use the word "fag" you don't mean to bash on a certain group of people, just on your opponent. And it would be fine if that was an objective way to see it.
Thing is words aren't neutral, they have a history, and the reason "gay" is used as an insult has a pretty bad history. Maybe not for you, but why would you want to hurt somebody who has had to live through discrimination for being gay?
There are litteraly hundreds of words you can use to evacuate your frustration, why use those that bear a difficult past for some groups of people? It's easy to change.
Sure everyone is an individual, but everyone is also capable of empathy. Why offend people when you can chose not to do so?
Edit Zetter: perhaps you feel particularly offended by that word because you're german? All these words offend different people, so project the feeling you get when called nazi to a gay person called faggot, it's roughly the same.
Do you honestly think that a 16 year old playing a game of Starcraft, get's a bit annoyed by his 7th 6pooling opponent is going to think "my opponent might actually be gay" before lashing out with the word fag? There's no more depth in the thought process other than "that's a funny word to use" when a gamer insults someone...
Once again it's people overthinking and using their hypersensitivity to try and censor the population... grow up and grow some thick skin like the rest of us had too...
To quote Steve Hughes - "You want to live in a democracy, but you never want to be offended again...?"
Not the issue.
The point isn't if you are actually referring to gay people or not. The point is that words have a meaning beyond the one you're willing to give them.
You can offend someone unintentionnaly, hell most of the people you offend you probably do so unintentionnaly (at least I hope for your sake). Is it still a reason to do it? If somebody tells you "please don't use the word fag in front of me, it offends me", would you then stop using it? Do you really need to be told?
Democracy means respect for people as equals. Discrimination is not a part of democracy. You can dislike me because you think I'm stupid, arrogant or hypersensitive. Not because I have blue eyes. It's that simple.
NO it doesn't!!!!
People are allowed to dislike people with blue eyes. OMG what the hell kind of world do you think you live in??
Hopefully not fascism. When you begin to treat people differently because of things like eye colour, it's no longer a democracy. Democracy means equal rights.
Let me clarify, you can dislike me for whatever you want, what I meant is that you shouldn't treat me differently because of it.
Freedom of expression is never absolute. If it were, there would be no freedom of expression, because people would deny each other's freedom of expression.
On July 12 2011 19:01 BlackJack wrote: It's funny how many white males from 1st world countries are posting like "I never get offended by discriminatory language on the internet."
Really? As a white male you don't get offended when someone calls you a nigger? Give yourself a round of applause...
This made me lol.
I share a similar opinion to most in this thread. Trashtalking on the internet is not going to go away and it's no ones issue to sort it out.
It does bother me that words such as gay/black/jew are used as insults but I don't know how it can ever be stopped. When in genuine anger (online or IRL) it reflects a much deeper problem which is much more serious.
On July 12 2011 17:59 Malyce wrote: Words like "fag" or "gay" are primarily used to designate homosexuals. There's a reason for which these words and not others were used to designate bad players/cheesers/all-iners.
Even if it has become a slang and has been normalised doesn't mean it's still fine to use them. It's just that people don't realise that to a certain minority, the use of such language is offensive.
In other words if you are a homosexual, you cheese a dude and he calls you "fkin fag", even if he means "your play is annoying", textually it's still "you play like a gay person, in other words very bad", and as a member of the targetted community you can and probably will feel legitimately offended.
You can also see it this way. It's unfair to gay people that "gay" is used to designate bad play. Why isn't the word "hetero" used instead? Quite frankly the only reason is that the gaming community has been and to a certain extent still is homophobic and homophobic rants have normalised into everyday language.
But those "gay" people are also "full of joy or mirth" which is basically what the word means... unless you meant the slang form of it...it'd be completely different... "full of joy or mirth" at the time of origin
When people began using the word in videogames, or in general as an insult, they weren't referring to "full of joy". They were referring to the homosexuality.
Basically when we pick up these insults today, we're recycling the heritage of our homophobic forefathers. Just like the "n" word with the heritage of former slave owners. Not a heritage I'd like to pick up.
You guys are hard to argue/discuss things with. Too narrow view on how people use words. Too many assumptions.
If you think you know why people use these words. Then you highly assumptive. Just be humble and inquisitive. At least then you would be willing to learn from the world.
Tip: Everyone is an individual. 2 people can say the same thing, both with completely different reasons and emotions.
Lastly, You know not these people on the internet.
Sure when you use the word "fag" you don't mean to bash on a certain group of people, just on your opponent. And it would be fine if that was an objective way to see it.
Thing is words aren't neutral, they have a history, and the reason "gay" is used as an insult has a pretty bad history. Maybe not for you, but why would you want to hurt somebody who has had to live through discrimination for being gay?
There are litteraly hundreds of words you can use to evacuate your frustration, why use those that bear a difficult past for some groups of people? It's easy to change.
Sure everyone is an individual, but everyone is also capable of empathy. Why offend people when you can chose not to do so?
Edit Zetter: perhaps you feel particularly offended by that word because you're german? All these words offend different people, so project the feeling you get when called nazi to a gay person called faggot, it's roughly the same.
Do you honestly think that a 16 year old playing a game of Starcraft, get's a bit annoyed by his 7th 6pooling opponent is going to think "my opponent might actually be gay" before lashing out with the word fag? There's no more depth in the thought process other than "that's a funny word to use" when a gamer insults someone...
Once again it's people overthinking and using their hypersensitivity to try and censor the population... grow up and grow some thick skin like the rest of us had too...
To quote Steve Hughes - "You want to live in a democracy, but you never want to be offended again...?"
Not the issue.
The point isn't if you are actually referring to gay people or not. The point is that words have a meaning beyond the one you're willing to give them.
You can offend someone unintentionnaly, hell most of the people you offend you probably do so unintentionnaly (at least I hope for your sake). Is it still a reason to do it? If somebody tells you "please don't use the word fag in front of me, it offends me", would you then stop using it? Do you really need to be told?
Democracy means respect for people as equals. Discrimination is not a part of democracy. You can dislike me because you think I'm stupid, arrogant or hypersensitive. Not because I have blue eyes. It's that simple.
What did i just say? I don't run algorithm's to see what the chances are of my opponent's being of a certain ethnic background / sexuality / gender, (not that i generally tend to insult people as its just a game seriously people) Back when i was in my teens i would simply pick a word, any "trending" word - a "word of the day" if you will and simply type it, if the word was fag and the person was indeed gay then that's just unlucky... it doesn't mean i'm homophobic it was just a bad choice of words in that circumstance...
You need to grow up in my honest opinion, alot of things in the world will offend you and its simply not worth your valuable time of effort trying to fight this whole internet thing... besides you're going to get alot worse in the real world where people insult you or offend you to your face... I'm irish and i've been called everything from Paddy to Green Nigger, do i get offended? no, i'm proud of my heritage and of who i am and i think if you're gay then be proud to be gay, when someone calls you a fag, don't react to it as if being gay is some nasty illegal taboo thing, if someone calls you a pedophile then that's a complete different kettle of fish, I personally would expect a big fat banning from Blizzard if i called someone a pedo ingame, hell i'd even ban myself!
Moral of the story, be proud of who you are and if you're not what they say you are then, well shrug it off and remember that worse things will happen to you... I'm going to "practice what i preach" stop wasting time and effort on this issue which is merely a matter of making a mountain out of a mole hill... (and i apologise for the english metaphor's)
On July 12 2011 17:59 Malyce wrote: Words like "fag" or "gay" are primarily used to designate homosexuals. There's a reason for which these words and not others were used to designate bad players/cheesers/all-iners.
Even if it has become a slang and has been normalised doesn't mean it's still fine to use them. It's just that people don't realise that to a certain minority, the use of such language is offensive.
In other words if you are a homosexual, you cheese a dude and he calls you "fkin fag", even if he means "your play is annoying", textually it's still "you play like a gay person, in other words very bad", and as a member of the targetted community you can and probably will feel legitimately offended.
You can also see it this way. It's unfair to gay people that "gay" is used to designate bad play. Why isn't the word "hetero" used instead? Quite frankly the only reason is that the gaming community has been and to a certain extent still is homophobic and homophobic rants have normalised into everyday language.
But those "gay" people are also "full of joy or mirth" which is basically what the word means... unless you meant the slang form of it...it'd be completely different... "full of joy or mirth" at the time of origin
When people began using the word in videogames, or in general as an insult, they weren't referring to "full of joy". They were referring to the homosexuality.
Basically when we pick up these insults today, we're recycling the heritage of our homophobic forefathers. Just like the "n" word with the heritage of former slave owners. Not a heritage I'd like to pick up.
You guys are hard to argue/discuss things with. Too narrow view on how people use words. Too many assumptions.
If you think you know why people use these words. Then you highly assumptive. Just be humble and inquisitive. At least then you would be willing to learn from the world.
Tip: Everyone is an individual. 2 people can say the same thing, both with completely different reasons and emotions.
Lastly, You know not these people on the internet.
Sure when you use the word "fag" you don't mean to bash on a certain group of people, just on your opponent. And it would be fine if that was an objective way to see it.
Thing is words aren't neutral, they have a history, and the reason "gay" is used as an insult has a pretty bad history. Maybe not for you, but why would you want to hurt somebody who has had to live through discrimination for being gay?
There are litteraly hundreds of words you can use to evacuate your frustration, why use those that bear a difficult past for some groups of people? It's easy to change.
Sure everyone is an individual, but everyone is also capable of empathy. Why offend people when you can chose not to do so?
Edit Zetter: perhaps you feel particularly offended by that word because you're german? All these words offend different people, so project the feeling you get when called nazi to a gay person called faggot, it's roughly the same.
Do you honestly think that a 16 year old playing a game of Starcraft, get's a bit annoyed by his 7th 6pooling opponent is going to think "my opponent might actually be gay" before lashing out with the word fag? There's no more depth in the thought process other than "that's a funny word to use" when a gamer insults someone...
Once again it's people overthinking and using their hypersensitivity to try and censor the population... grow up and grow some thick skin like the rest of us had too...
To quote Steve Hughes - "You want to live in a democracy, but you never want to be offended again...?"
Not the issue.
The point isn't if you are actually referring to gay people or not. The point is that words have a meaning beyond the one you're willing to give them.
You can offend someone unintentionnaly, hell most of the people you offend you probably do so unintentionnaly (at least I hope for your sake). Is it still a reason to do it? If somebody tells you "please don't use the word fag in front of me, it offends me", would you then stop using it? Do you really need to be told?
Democracy means respect for people as equals. Discrimination is not a part of democracy. You can dislike me because you think I'm stupid, arrogant or hypersensitive. Not because I have blue eyes. It's that simple.
NO it doesn't!!!!
People are allowed to dislike people with blue eyes. OMG what the hell kind of world do you think you live in??
Hopefully not fascism. When you begin to treat people differently because of things like eye colour, it's no longer a democracy. Democracy means equal rights.
Let me clarify, you can dislike me for whatever you want, what I meant is that you shouldn't treat me differently because of it.
Freedom of expression is never absolute. If it were, there would be no freedom of expression, because people would deny each other's freedom of expression.
Insulting people with derogatory words ≠ denying another persons freedom of expression
Also, You are still on the internet. Please understand that it's not a personal world, UNLESS you make it personal.
Look, I could make saying "um" an offense to myself. It's all SUBJECTIVE. Gosh.
On July 12 2011 17:59 Malyce wrote: Words like "fag" or "gay" are primarily used to designate homosexuals. There's a reason for which these words and not others were used to designate bad players/cheesers/all-iners.
Even if it has become a slang and has been normalised doesn't mean it's still fine to use them. It's just that people don't realise that to a certain minority, the use of such language is offensive.
In other words if you are a homosexual, you cheese a dude and he calls you "fkin fag", even if he means "your play is annoying", textually it's still "you play like a gay person, in other words very bad", and as a member of the targetted community you can and probably will feel legitimately offended.
You can also see it this way. It's unfair to gay people that "gay" is used to designate bad play. Why isn't the word "hetero" used instead? Quite frankly the only reason is that the gaming community has been and to a certain extent still is homophobic and homophobic rants have normalised into everyday language.
But those "gay" people are also "full of joy or mirth" which is basically what the word means... unless you meant the slang form of it...it'd be completely different... "full of joy or mirth" at the time of origin
When people began using the word in videogames, or in general as an insult, they weren't referring to "full of joy". They were referring to the homosexuality.
Basically when we pick up these insults today, we're recycling the heritage of our homophobic forefathers. Just like the "n" word with the heritage of former slave owners. Not a heritage I'd like to pick up.
You guys are hard to argue/discuss things with. Too narrow view on how people use words. Too many assumptions.
If you think you know why people use these words. Then you highly assumptive. Just be humble and inquisitive. At least then you would be willing to learn from the world.
Tip: Everyone is an individual. 2 people can say the same thing, both with completely different reasons and emotions.
Lastly, You know not these people on the internet.
Sure when you use the word "fag" you don't mean to bash on a certain group of people, just on your opponent. And it would be fine if that was an objective way to see it.
Thing is words aren't neutral, they have a history, and the reason "gay" is used as an insult has a pretty bad history. Maybe not for you, but why would you want to hurt somebody who has had to live through discrimination for being gay?
There are litteraly hundreds of words you can use to evacuate your frustration, why use those that bear a difficult past for some groups of people? It's easy to change.
Sure everyone is an individual, but everyone is also capable of empathy. Why offend people when you can chose not to do so?
Edit Zetter: perhaps you feel particularly offended by that word because you're german? All these words offend different people, so project the feeling you get when called nazi to a gay person called faggot, it's roughly the same.
Do you honestly think that a 16 year old playing a game of Starcraft, get's a bit annoyed by his 7th 6pooling opponent is going to think "my opponent might actually be gay" before lashing out with the word fag? There's no more depth in the thought process other than "that's a funny word to use" when a gamer insults someone...
Once again it's people overthinking and using their hypersensitivity to try and censor the population... grow up and grow some thick skin like the rest of us had too...
To quote Steve Hughes - "You want to live in a democracy, but you never want to be offended again...?"
Not the issue.
The point isn't if you are actually referring to gay people or not. The point is that words have a meaning beyond the one you're willing to give them.
You can offend someone unintentionnaly, hell most of the people you offend you probably do so unintentionnaly (at least I hope for your sake). Is it still a reason to do it? If somebody tells you "please don't use the word fag in front of me, it offends me", would you then stop using it? Do you really need to be told?
Democracy means respect for people as equals. Discrimination is not a part of democracy. You can dislike me because you think I'm stupid, arrogant or hypersensitive. Not because I have blue eyes. It's that simple.
What did i just say? I don't run algorithm's to see what the chances are of my opponent's being of a certain ethnic background / sexuality / gender, (not that i generally tend to insult people as its just a game seriously people) Back when i was in my teens i would simply pick a word, any "trending" word - a "word of the day" if you will and simply type it, if the word was fag and the person was indeed gay then that's just unlucky... it doesn't mean i'm homophobic it was just a bad choice of words in that circumstance...
You need to grow up in my honest opinion, alot of things in the world will offend you and its simply not worth your valuable time of effort trying to fight this whole internet thing... besides you're going to get alot worse in the real world where people insult you or offend you to your face... I'm irish and i've been called everything from Paddy to Green Nigger, do i get offended? no, i'm proud of my heritage and of who i am and i think if you're gay then be proud to be gay, when someone calls you a fag, don't react to it as if being gay is some nasty illegal taboo thing, if someone calls you a pedophile then that's a complete different kettle of fish, I personally would expect a big fat banning from Blizzard if i called someone a pedo ingame, hell i'd even ban myself!
Moral of the story, be proud of who you are and if you're not what they say you are then, well shrug it off and remember that worse things will happen to you... I'm going to "practice what i preach" stop wasting time and effort on this issue which is merely a matter of making a mountain out of a mole hill... (and i apologise for the english metaphor's)
Don't get me wrong, I'm perfectly fine with who I am and have no personnal issue with these insults, being white heterosexual pseudo-christian and whatnot.
Grow up =/= become unsensitive. What I don't understand is you recognise that using a word like "fag" is bad if you're adressing a gay person. Then why not just not use it ever with anyone? It's extremely simple to do.
Also the thing is when somebody calls you "gay", they're not saying "you are homosexual". It isn't "you banshee rushed me, I have no detec', you must like other men". They're saying you suck, you're bad. In other words they're saying "you are as bad as gay people", they are associatnig being bad to being gay. Sure it could be implicit, unintentionnal, trendy or whatnot. But I still think that if you can choose to just not offend somebody, then do it!
Again I don't feel personnally offended and I'm not preaching anything, just giving my honest opinion on the matter. I know it won't change anything, I don't report anything to blizzard, I know it's pointless.
On July 12 2011 19:01 BlackJack wrote: It's funny how many white males from 1st world countries are posting like "I never get offended by discriminatory language on the internet."
Really? As a white male you don't get offended when someone calls you a nigger? Give yourself a round of applause...
What about the gay white males from 1st world countries that don't get offended by people calling them a faggot? I'd say people being anti-gay is just as rampant as racism in 1st world countries, and I know plenty of people who don't get offended when someone calls them a faggot.
Some people are just looking for reasons to feel offended butthurt. Definitely not an issue.
On July 12 2011 19:01 BlackJack wrote: It's funny how many white males from 1st world countries are posting like "I never get offended by discriminatory language on the internet."
Really? As a white male you don't get offended when someone calls you a nigger? Give yourself a round of applause...
I don't get offended when someone calls me a nigger, that's true. But I don't get offended when someone calls me white+insult (etc) either.
On July 12 2011 17:59 Malyce wrote: Words like "fag" or "gay" are primarily used to designate homosexuals. There's a reason for which these words and not others were used to designate bad players/cheesers/all-iners.
Even if it has become a slang and has been normalised doesn't mean it's still fine to use them. It's just that people don't realise that to a certain minority, the use of such language is offensive.
In other words if you are a homosexual, you cheese a dude and he calls you "fkin fag", even if he means "your play is annoying", textually it's still "you play like a gay person, in other words very bad", and as a member of the targetted community you can and probably will feel legitimately offended.
You can also see it this way. It's unfair to gay people that "gay" is used to designate bad play. Why isn't the word "hetero" used instead? Quite frankly the only reason is that the gaming community has been and to a certain extent still is homophobic and homophobic rants have normalised into everyday language.
But those "gay" people are also "full of joy or mirth" which is basically what the word means... unless you meant the slang form of it...it'd be completely different... "full of joy or mirth" at the time of origin
When people began using the word in videogames, or in general as an insult, they weren't referring to "full of joy". They were referring to the homosexuality.
Basically when we pick up these insults today, we're recycling the heritage of our homophobic forefathers. Just like the "n" word with the heritage of former slave owners. Not a heritage I'd like to pick up.
You guys are hard to argue/discuss things with. Too narrow view on how people use words. Too many assumptions.
If you think you know why people use these words. Then you highly assumptive. Just be humble and inquisitive. At least then you would be willing to learn from the world.
Tip: Everyone is an individual. 2 people can say the same thing, both with completely different reasons and emotions.
Lastly, You know not these people on the internet.
Sure when you use the word "fag" you don't mean to bash on a certain group of people, just on your opponent. And it would be fine if that was an objective way to see it.
Thing is words aren't neutral, they have a history, and the reason "gay" is used as an insult has a pretty bad history. Maybe not for you, but why would you want to hurt somebody who has had to live through discrimination for being gay?
There are litteraly hundreds of words you can use to evacuate your frustration, why use those that bear a difficult past for some groups of people? It's easy to change.
Sure everyone is an individual, but everyone is also capable of empathy. Why offend people when you can chose not to do so?
Edit Zetter: perhaps you feel particularly offended by that word because you're german? All these words offend different people, so project the feeling you get when called nazi to a gay person called faggot, it's roughly the same.
Do you honestly think that a 16 year old playing a game of Starcraft, get's a bit annoyed by his 7th 6pooling opponent is going to think "my opponent might actually be gay" before lashing out with the word fag? There's no more depth in the thought process other than "that's a funny word to use" when a gamer insults someone...
Once again it's people overthinking and using their hypersensitivity to try and censor the population... grow up and grow some thick skin like the rest of us had too...
To quote Steve Hughes - "You want to live in a democracy, but you never want to be offended again...?"
Not the issue.
The point isn't if you are actually referring to gay people or not. The point is that words have a meaning beyond the one you're willing to give them.
You can offend someone unintentionnaly, hell most of the people you offend you probably do so unintentionnaly (at least I hope for your sake). Is it still a reason to do it? If somebody tells you "please don't use the word fag in front of me, it offends me", would you then stop using it? Do you really need to be told?
Democracy means respect for people as equals. Discrimination is not a part of democracy. You can dislike me because you think I'm stupid, arrogant or hypersensitive. Not because I have blue eyes. It's that simple.
NO it doesn't!!!!
People are allowed to dislike people with blue eyes. OMG what the hell kind of world do you think you live in??
Hopefully not fascism. When you begin to treat people differently because of things like eye colour, it's no longer a democracy. Democracy means equal rights.
Let me clarify, you can dislike me for whatever you want, what I meant is that you shouldn't treat me differently because of it.
Freedom of expression is never absolute. If it were, there would be no freedom of expression, because people would deny each other's freedom of expression.
Malyce, by your definition the US is a fascist state, because homosexuals don't have equal rights t_t I believe there are things like affirmative action in the US as well. That's discrimination. And personally I think that's much worse than the simple use of WORDS.
On July 12 2011 18:36 Malyce wrote:There are litteraly hundreds of words you can use to evacuate your frustration, why use those that bear a difficult past for some groups of people? It's easy to change.
It's really not. There will always be some group of people who will be offended by some random word. You can't decide how to speak based on trying not to offend anyone. That's unreasonable for the simple reason that people take unreasonable offense to silly words. In fact, these people who take offense are OPPRESSING others, if they get their way and ban these words.
Of course, as has been reiterated numerous times in this thread: Just ignore it. The people who make a big deal about it are the ones giving it power.
On July 12 2011 19:22 Malyce wrote: Also the thing is when somebody calls you "gay", they're not saying "you are homosexual". It isn't "you banshee rushed me, I have no detec', you must like other men". They're saying you suck, you're bad. In other words they're saying "you are as bad as gay people", they are associatnig being bad to being gay. Sure it could be implicit, unintentionnal, trendy or whatnot. But I still think that if you can choose to just not offend somebody, then do it!
This is simply not true. There will be people who associate "being gay" with "bad", but everyone that uses "gay" in a negative way do not necessarily. Words can have multiple meanings totally unrelated to one another. I can call someone a faggot when I dislike them, but I definitely don't harbour any hatred towards homosexuals.
I am certain that you have no problem with someone using the word "gay" to mean "happy". So why do you have a problem with people using "gay" to mean "you suck". They are simply different definitions of a word. Few people imply that "you are homosexual and therefore you suck" when they say gay, and the sooner you realise this fact the less offended you can feel! (on behalf of others or not)
On July 12 2011 17:59 Malyce wrote: Words like "fag" or "gay" are primarily used to designate homosexuals. There's a reason for which these words and not others were used to designate bad players/cheesers/all-iners.
Even if it has become a slang and has been normalised doesn't mean it's still fine to use them. It's just that people don't realise that to a certain minority, the use of such language is offensive.
In other words if you are a homosexual, you cheese a dude and he calls you "fkin fag", even if he means "your play is annoying", textually it's still "you play like a gay person, in other words very bad", and as a member of the targetted community you can and probably will feel legitimately offended.
You can also see it this way. It's unfair to gay people that "gay" is used to designate bad play. Why isn't the word "hetero" used instead? Quite frankly the only reason is that the gaming community has been and to a certain extent still is homophobic and homophobic rants have normalised into everyday language.
But those "gay" people are also "full of joy or mirth" which is basically what the word means... unless you meant the slang form of it...it'd be completely different... "full of joy or mirth" at the time of origin
When people began using the word in videogames, or in general as an insult, they weren't referring to "full of joy". They were referring to the homosexuality.
Basically when we pick up these insults today, we're recycling the heritage of our homophobic forefathers. Just like the "n" word with the heritage of former slave owners. Not a heritage I'd like to pick up.
You guys are hard to argue/discuss things with. Too narrow view on how people use words. Too many assumptions.
If you think you know why people use these words. Then you highly assumptive. Just be humble and inquisitive. At least then you would be willing to learn from the world.
Tip: Everyone is an individual. 2 people can say the same thing, both with completely different reasons and emotions.
Lastly, You know not these people on the internet.
Sure when you use the word "fag" you don't mean to bash on a certain group of people, just on your opponent. And it would be fine if that was an objective way to see it.
Thing is words aren't neutral, they have a history, and the reason "gay" is used as an insult has a pretty bad history. Maybe not for you, but why would you want to hurt somebody who has had to live through discrimination for being gay?
There are litteraly hundreds of words you can use to evacuate your frustration, why use those that bear a difficult past for some groups of people? It's easy to change.
Sure everyone is an individual, but everyone is also capable of empathy. Why offend people when you can chose not to do so?
Edit Zetter: perhaps you feel particularly offended by that word because you're german? All these words offend different people, so project the feeling you get when called nazi to a gay person called faggot, it's roughly the same.
Do you honestly think that a 16 year old playing a game of Starcraft, get's a bit annoyed by his 7th 6pooling opponent is going to think "my opponent might actually be gay" before lashing out with the word fag? There's no more depth in the thought process other than "that's a funny word to use" when a gamer insults someone...
Once again it's people overthinking and using their hypersensitivity to try and censor the population... grow up and grow some thick skin like the rest of us had too...
To quote Steve Hughes - "You want to live in a democracy, but you never want to be offended again...?"
Not the issue.
The point isn't if you are actually referring to gay people or not. The point is that words have a meaning beyond the one you're willing to give them.
You can offend someone unintentionnaly, hell most of the people you offend you probably do so unintentionnaly (at least I hope for your sake). Is it still a reason to do it? If somebody tells you "please don't use the word fag in front of me, it offends me", would you then stop using it? Do you really need to be told?
Democracy means respect for people as equals. Discrimination is not a part of democracy. You can dislike me because you think I'm stupid, arrogant or hypersensitive. Not because I have blue eyes. It's that simple.
What did i just say? I don't run algorithm's to see what the chances are of my opponent's being of a certain ethnic background / sexuality / gender, (not that i generally tend to insult people as its just a game seriously people) Back when i was in my teens i would simply pick a word, any "trending" word - a "word of the day" if you will and simply type it, if the word was fag and the person was indeed gay then that's just unlucky... it doesn't mean i'm homophobic it was just a bad choice of words in that circumstance...
You need to grow up in my honest opinion, alot of things in the world will offend you and its simply not worth your valuable time of effort trying to fight this whole internet thing... besides you're going to get alot worse in the real world where people insult you or offend you to your face... I'm irish and i've been called everything from Paddy to Green Nigger, do i get offended? no, i'm proud of my heritage and of who i am and i think if you're gay then be proud to be gay, when someone calls you a fag, don't react to it as if being gay is some nasty illegal taboo thing, if someone calls you a pedophile then that's a complete different kettle of fish, I personally would expect a big fat banning from Blizzard if i called someone a pedo ingame, hell i'd even ban myself!
Moral of the story, be proud of who you are and if you're not what they say you are then, well shrug it off and remember that worse things will happen to you... I'm going to "practice what i preach" stop wasting time and effort on this issue which is merely a matter of making a mountain out of a mole hill... (and i apologise for the english metaphor's)
Don't get me wrong, I'm perfectly fine with who I am and have no personnal issue with these insults, being white heterosexual pseudo-christian and whatnot.
Grow up =/= become unsensitive. What I don't understand is you recognise that using a word like "fag" is bad if you're adressing a gay person. Then why not just not use it ever with anyone? It's extremely simple to do.
Also the thing is when somebody calls you "gay", they're not saying "you are homosexual". It isn't "you banshee rushed me, I have no detec', you must like other men". They're saying you suck, you're bad. In other words they're saying "you are as bad as gay people", they are associatnig being bad to being gay. Sure it could be implicit, unintentionnal, trendy or whatnot. But I still think that if you can choose to just not offend somebody, then do it!
Again I don't feel personnally offended and I'm not preaching anything, just giving my honest opinion on the matter. I know it won't change anything, I don't report anything to blizzard, I know it's pointless.
it's just a figure of speech. just like when you say god damn it you don't want god to damn whatever it is that's bothering you. you probably dont even believe in god.
But oh no you could be offending christinas when you say it, after all you shouldn't take gods name in vain. But here you are shitting all over their values.
point is, noone actually means "you're a homosexual" when you say fag. You could just as well say someone is a dick or an idiot(i mean no offense to actual human sized penises playing SC2 or to people with low IQ). If a gay guy gets offended by it then that's his problem, unless used in a explicit gay/hetero context fag has nothing to do with gay people. You could actually be calling someone a cigarette (hello england :D)
On July 12 2011 19:36 Lucidity wrote: This is simply not true. There will be people who associate "being gay" with "bad", but everyone that uses "gay" in a negative way do not necessarily. Words can have multiple meanings totally unrelated to one another. I can call someone a faggot when I dislike them, but I definitely don't harbour any hatred towards homosexuals.
I am certain that you have no problem with someone using the word "gay" to mean "happy". So why do you have a problem with people using "gay" to mean "you suck". They are simply different definitions of a word. Few people imply that "you are homosexual and therefore you suck" when they say gay, and the sooner you realise this fact the less offended you can feel! (on behalf of others or not)
As someone who actually /is/ gay, I can say that when someone lashes out online and calls me a "faggot" even though I know that it doesn't carry homophobic connotations (usually), it still makes me feel terrible.
The reason isn't that someone is mad at me on the internet for doing something they didn't like, the reason is because they are using a derogatory term for something I cannot control about myself in a way that intends to insult and demean the other party. It would sound ridiculous to use something like "you are so straight" as an insult, and that is because in most people's minds, being straight isnt something to debase someone over. Being gay, even though most people wouldn't call themselves homophobic, seems to be mentally engraved into most people as a reason to debase others.
It reminds me of a book I read where the main character had a grandfather who called black people "niggers", but vehemently denied racism of any sort.
Anyway, I don't usually think less of people who use that language online, because I know they didn't mean it like that, but it still hurts a little on the inside because it is a reminder of the current popular opinion of latent homophobia.
Colloquial use of faggot, we're taking it back and making it ours.
and when people say that things are "gay", they aren't saying that thing is bad, are you really so blind?
Let's say you're playing some FPS and something happens and you die and you say, "That's gay." That's not saying what happened was bad. You are saying that what happened could not be stopped or changed, if anything people saying that things are "gay" are referencing the power of homosexuality and how homosexuals cannot be changed or stopped from being homosexuals.
I don't see where this idea of "bad gay bad" came from, but I guess people like to hear what they want to hear.
Poll: What should we do with players who using discriminatory language
Do nothing.--It's not an issue. (456)
72%
Tell them to stop, and report them if they don't. (58)
9%
Do nothing.--It's Blizzard's problem. (38)
6%
Ban them only if they don't stop after repeatedly warnings. (27)
4%
Shun them online and block them from communication. (25)
4%
Ban them outright. (19)
3%
Tarnish their good name online wherever you can. (5)
1%
Tell them to stop repeatedly, but nothing else. (3)
0%
Tell them to stop, and get others to harass them if they don't. (3)
0%
634 total votes
Your vote: What should we do with players who using discriminatory language
(Vote): Do nothing.--It's Blizzard's problem. (Vote): Do nothing.--It's not an issue. (Vote): Tell them to stop repeatedly, but nothing else. (Vote): Tell them to stop, and report them if they don't. (Vote): Tell them to stop, and get others to harass them if they don't. (Vote): Shun them online and block them from communication. (Vote): Ban them outright. (Vote): Ban them only if they don't stop after repeatedly warnings. (Vote): Tarnish their good name online wherever you can.
Across online gaming communities people feel that it is okay to use discriminating language to demean other people. Homophobic language is by far the most common but racist and sexist language appears a lot as well. People who use it are explicitly using it with a negative connotation in order to put another player down.--In Starcraft 2 it's often for using a cheese strategy. The way people are using this discriminatory discourse goes beyond smack talk, which I believe is a healthy and fun part of the game. There's a difference between making fun of someone and calling them a "f*cking f*ggot" and other countless examples.
That being said.-- I wonder what people think are the appropriate response by the people in our community.
As a kickoff.-- I believe that people should ask someone to stop using the language and then if they don't should be reported to Blizzard, the forum, or the event coordinator who should warn the player. If the player doesn't stop after the official warning then they should be banned. I think the warning should also explain the rationale behind trying to stamp out discriminatory language--namely to keep the online gaming community a welcoming and safe one for people of all types to enjoy and participate in.
Other answers could be socially stigmatize them, multiple warnings, refusing to play with them (aka shun them), or any other number of solutions.
What are people's thoughts? Or do people think it's too trivial of an issue to talk about?--From what I've talked with others in game about it seems like the community would like to take action to do something.
Feel free to respond or just vote in my poll.
Personally, growing up I heard "gay" or "fag" a lot to refer to people all the time. Like in high school or middle school. I never associated it with discrimination of actual homosexual people, and I got used to it. I have a lesbian friend and we've talked about something being "gay" multiple times, in terms of meaning its lame. The definition and usage of words changes over time.
faggot or esp ( US ) fagot 1 (ˈfæɡət) [Click for IPA pronunciation guide]
— n 1. a bundle of sticks or twigs, esp when bound together and used as fuel 2. a bundle of iron bars, esp a box formed by four pieces of wrought iron and filled with scrap to be forged into wrought iron 3. a ball of chopped meat, usually pork liver, bound with herbs and bread and eaten fried 4. a bundle of anything
— vb 5. to collect into a bundle or bundles 6. needlework to do faggoting on (a garment, piece of cloth, etc)
[C14: from Old French, perhaps from Greek phakelos bundle]
[fag-uht] Show IPA –noun Slang: Disparaging and Offensive . a male homosexual. Origin: 1910–15, Americanism ; compare faggot a contemptuous term for a woman (from circa 1590), perhaps the same word as fagot
—Related forms fag·got·y, fag·got·ty, adjective
It seems like a word, once it becomes associated with something negative that society dislikes, suddenly becomes unacceptable and dies off due to being unable to be used ever again, and tus changed again in meaning so that its acceptable once more.
Meh.
I can totally understand being sensitive to the need of people to not feel discriminated against and thus personally emotionally hurt, so if someone was sensitive to such words I'd never think of using them around said persons. But what if I were personally sensitive to "noob". can we get it destroyed in the community because it hurts my feeliings as being part of a group of people who aren't as good, and thus considered second rate, in game? It is after all a discriminating term used to refer to people that are less capable, or in other words, comes right along the lines of calling someone a retard when they actually do have some mental impediment to perform.
Oh, the good old days of star trek IV, where they called chekhov a "must be a freaking retard or something", such discriminatory language where the only other harsh word was dumbass. Thats another thing, whats ok in society one day becomes not ok the next, due to the accelerating amount of change going on from such a critical mass of people living. Its no coincidence that the population explosion of humanity also coincides with the explosion of technology and social reforms. the graphs look like a flat line, almost, until around the 1700's, and then it takes off exponentially along with population.
I don't get offended by people using words on the Internet but if I feel they're espousing views that contradict my own principals I'll block them and move on, and maybe encourage others to do the same. I'm not in the business of censoring people but that doesn't mean I, or anyone else, should listen to them.
I do really wish people who aren't racist, homophobic, sexist etc would widen their vocabulary from time to time though and pick more appropriate words. There are plenty of them and I feel just sticking to words you know could cause offense out of laziness is almost as bad as meaning them, as you're to some extent supporting the beliefs of bigots by giving their values some validation.
On July 12 2011 20:04 Iyerbeth wrote: I don't get offended by people using words on the Internet but if I feel they're espousing views that contradict my own principals I'll block them and move on, and maybe encourage others to do the same. I'm not in the business of censoring people but that doesn't mean I, or anyone else, should listen to them.
I do really wish people who aren't racist, homophobic, sexist etc would widen their vocabulary from time to time though and pick more appropriate words. There are plenty of them and I feel just sticking to words you know could cause offense out of laziness is almost as bad as meaning them, as you're to some extent supporting the beliefs of bigots by giving their values some validation.
thats my opinion too. people should block others they find offensive. If people have the power to not listen, they should use it.
I've been banned from bnet before for calling someone a bitch. its actually very easy to get banned if someone reports you, whether they were actually being a bitch or not. cheesers who lose and then drop hack because you beat them, yeah, I consider you a bitch for that business. take your loss like a man/woman.
On July 12 2011 19:36 Lucidity wrote: This is simply not true. There will be people who associate "being gay" with "bad", but everyone that uses "gay" in a negative way do not necessarily. Words can have multiple meanings totally unrelated to one another. I can call someone a faggot when I dislike them, but I definitely don't harbour any hatred towards homosexuals.
I am certain that you have no problem with someone using the word "gay" to mean "happy". So why do you have a problem with people using "gay" to mean "you suck". They are simply different definitions of a word. Few people imply that "you are homosexual and therefore you suck" when they say gay, and the sooner you realise this fact the less offended you can feel! (on behalf of others or not)
As someone who actually /is/ gay, I can say that when someone lashes out online and calls me a "faggot" even though I know that it doesn't carry homophobic connotations (usually), it still makes me feel terrible.
The reason isn't that someone is mad at me on the internet for doing something they didn't like, the reason is because they are using a derogatory term for something I cannot control about myself in a way that intends to insult and demean the other party. It would sound ridiculous to use something like "you are so straight" as an insult, and that is because in most people's minds, being straight isnt something to debase someone over. Being gay, even though most people wouldn't call themselves homophobic, seems to be mentally engraved into most people as a reason to debase others.
It reminds me of a book I read where the main character had a grandfather who called black people "niggers", but vehemently denied racism of any sort.
Anyway, I don't usually think less of people who use that language online, because I know they didn't mean it like that, but it still hurts a little on the inside because it is a reminder of the current popular opinion of latent homophobia.
While it's unfortunate that you feel a little hurt on the inside, that's life You will learn to ignore or accept the language with time. (Hopefully)
The fact of the matter is that "you are so straight" isn't comparable to "you are so gay". Most people don't mean "you have an attraction to the same sex and therefore you suck". Even if they did... It's just something that you have to learn to deal with. Many people use the word "nerd" as an insult. The fact is there is still quite a stigma attached to it. When I'm called a nerd I can choose to feel offended and get butthurt, or I can realise that it's not something to be ashamed about ... it's not really an insult at all. I suggest you do the same with gay related insults. As long as you don't feel ashamed of being gay, you should be able to laugh at the close minded individuals who do!
Just a little note on the "don't do things that can cause offense" thing. Some people expect others to avoid the word "gay", because homosexuals can take offense. I can tell you that most Christians find gay sex incredibly offensive, and if they had their way it would be banned! But I'm sure you wouldn't support banning that action on the basis of it causing offense... (Just like most people wouldn't support banning the use of goddamn/christ/jesus etc)
I think we should be educating the students in our schools to be understanding of all types of people and not use that kind of language. Bullying is a huge problem in our education system and causes many problems.
But trashtalking on the internet is not school, and it's a completely different environment. When people call me a douchebag faggotron 5000 when I kill them in StarCraft, I could care less about giving them a lesson in manners, because I'm busy teaching How-To-Pwn-Noobs 101.
It is not about turning a blind eye to something that will inevitably still occur no matter what you personally do about it. By taking offense you are essentially giving them power to troll you. If you are not affected the words lose its meaning, especially in a aggregate setting such as the internet.
On July 12 2011 19:01 BlackJack wrote: It's funny how many white males from 1st world countries are posting like "I never get offended by discriminatory language on the internet."
Really? As a white male you don't get offended when someone calls you a nigger? Give yourself a round of applause...
I don't get offended when someone calls me a nigger, that's true. But I don't get offended when someone calls me white+insult (etc) either.
don't be such a q***r to be offended by internet slurs. it's the last place we can safely exercise freedom of speech for real.
im not white(brown asian) and when my white friends make fun or ask me something "offensive" about my race i make a joke about it even more, seems to ease tensions and they end up having good things to say about my "kind" of people. its non-tolerance and hyper-sensitivity which causes tensions and offense when there shouldn't be any. with sexuality gay people always make fun of heteros(cause "we dont get it" for some reason (lol) ) in their convos so i dont see what the difference really is
why would you be affected by slurs at all? its just a video game lol. its different from being called nigger beacuse when some1 calls you that in real life and u r black its offensive because he can plainly see that u r black. but if someone calls you a faggot or nigger or whatever in a starcraft match the other guy doesnt really know what you look like or who you are so he obviously didnt mean "hey you're literally a gay guy" or whatever. ok i may be rambling but OP needs to grow up haha its just the internet the stranger literally cant see who you r
Society has always been using swearwords, all of them are meant to be offensive. You swear to demean and hurt your opponent because you are pissed. That shithole just raped your sorry ass and the only way to get back at him on the battlenet 2.0 is swearing as the chances of a ladder regame are close to zero. gg no re.
You dont want to hear angry rants and various insults? Blizzard gave you the tool to block them and %$& is about as offensive as looking at an angry face. You don't know what exactly that means other than that it's most likely offensive in some way. If you are still angry and hurt about someone insulting you on the internet even though you clearly have ways to avoid that by filtering or blocking you are just asking for it.
banning words is completely insane and won't help in the least. People will just move on and use another one just the way it happened with retarded which is now a 'bad word' and 'offending' to retarded people - even though it's a medical term. Faggot is the new asshole, deal with it.
On July 12 2011 19:29 3772 wrote: Some people are just looking for reasons to feel offended butthurt. Definitely not an issue.
On July 12 2011 19:01 BlackJack wrote: It's funny how many white males from 1st world countries are posting like "I never get offended by discriminatory language on the internet."
Really? As a white male you don't get offended when someone calls you a nigger? Give yourself a round of applause...
I don't get offended when someone calls me a nigger, that's true. But I don't get offended when someone calls me white+insult (etc) either.
While funny, that's not the case everywhere in the world
In South Africa for instance there are little things called "Black Economic Empowerment" and "Affirmative Action" and sports "quotas", which basically mean: If you're a white male, please go stand at the back of the queue. We need to try and fill positions with other races and females first, even if they're less qualified, before we have a look at you. Thank you for your time! Louis CK talked about it happening in the future, but it's already here ^_^
On July 12 2011 17:59 Malyce wrote: Words like "fag" or "gay" are primarily used to designate homosexuals. There's a reason for which these words and not others were used to designate bad players/cheesers/all-iners.
Even if it has become a slang and has been normalised doesn't mean it's still fine to use them. It's just that people don't realise that to a certain minority, the use of such language is offensive.
In other words if you are a homosexual, you cheese a dude and he calls you "fkin fag", even if he means "your play is annoying", textually it's still "you play like a gay person, in other words very bad", and as a member of the targetted community you can and probably will feel legitimately offended.
You can also see it this way. It's unfair to gay people that "gay" is used to designate bad play. Why isn't the word "hetero" used instead? Quite frankly the only reason is that the gaming community has been and to a certain extent still is homophobic and homophobic rants have normalised into everyday language.
But those "gay" people are also "full of joy or mirth" which is basically what the word means... unless you meant the slang form of it...it'd be completely different... "full of joy or mirth" at the time of origin
When people began using the word in videogames, or in general as an insult, they weren't referring to "full of joy". They were referring to the homosexuality.
Basically when we pick up these insults today, we're recycling the heritage of our homophobic forefathers. Just like the "n" word with the heritage of former slave owners. Not a heritage I'd like to pick up.
You guys are hard to argue/discuss things with. Too narrow view on how people use words. Too many assumptions.
If you think you know why people use these words. Then you highly assumptive. Just be humble and inquisitive. At least then you would be willing to learn from the world.
Tip: Everyone is an individual. 2 people can say the same thing, both with completely different reasons and emotions.
Lastly, You know not these people on the internet.
Sure when you use the word "fag" you don't mean to bash on a certain group of people, just on your opponent. And it would be fine if that was an objective way to see it.
Thing is words aren't neutral, they have a history, and the reason "gay" is used as an insult has a pretty bad history. Maybe not for you, but why would you want to hurt somebody who has had to live through discrimination for being gay?
There are litteraly hundreds of words you can use to evacuate your frustration, why use those that bear a difficult past for some groups of people? It's easy to change.
Sure everyone is an individual, but everyone is also capable of empathy. Why offend people when you can chose not to do so?
Edit Zetter: perhaps you feel particularly offended by that word because you're german? All these words offend different people, so project the feeling you get when called nazi to a gay person called faggot, it's roughly the same.
Do you honestly think that a 16 year old playing a game of Starcraft, get's a bit annoyed by his 7th 6pooling opponent is going to think "my opponent might actually be gay" before lashing out with the word fag? There's no more depth in the thought process other than "that's a funny word to use" when a gamer insults someone...
Once again it's people overthinking and using their hypersensitivity to try and censor the population... grow up and grow some thick skin like the rest of us had too...
To quote Steve Hughes - "You want to live in a democracy, but you never want to be offended again...?"
Not the issue.
The point isn't if you are actually referring to gay people or not. The point is that words have a meaning beyond the one you're willing to give them.
You can offend someone unintentionnaly, hell most of the people you offend you probably do so unintentionnaly (at least I hope for your sake). Is it still a reason to do it? If somebody tells you "please don't use the word fag in front of me, it offends me", would you then stop using it? Do you really need to be told?
Democracy means respect for people as equals. Discrimination is not a part of democracy. You can dislike me because you think I'm stupid, arrogant or hypersensitive. Not because I have blue eyes. It's that simple.
so in democracy its okay to discriminate and harass people for more metaphysical or psychological qualities, just not genetic ones. gotcha.
On July 12 2011 19:29 3772 wrote: Some people are just looking for reasons to feel offended butthurt. Definitely not an issue.
On July 12 2011 19:01 BlackJack wrote: It's funny how many white males from 1st world countries are posting like "I never get offended by discriminatory language on the internet."
Really? As a white male you don't get offended when someone calls you a nigger? Give yourself a round of applause...
I don't get offended when someone calls me a nigger, that's true. But I don't get offended when someone calls me white+insult (etc) either.
While funny, that's not the case everywhere in the world
In South Africa for instance there are little things called "Black Economic Empowerment" and "Affirmative Action" and sports "quotas", which basically mean: If you're a white male, please go stand at the back of the queue. We need to try and fill positions with other races and females first, even if they're less qualified, before we have a look at you. Thank you for your time! Louis CK talked about it happening in the future, but it's already here ^_^
they do the same thing in america. Scholarships all around just for having the genetics of mexican, black, etc. If you're white, no son, you gotta earn that scholarship by superb marks and showing your brain is up to it. There is no white guy scholarship, and if there was people would be crying "racism" to the top of the hills.
There is black pride, gay pride, mexican pride, but if there's white pride, oh shit look out, its a bunch of racists! White people are taught from day one they are to be ashamed of being white.
I think the reason a lot of blacks are racist online and call people "Cracker" is not because whites owned land and people, but that they should be ashamed for being ancestors of people who did something that is considered horrible by todays standards. btw I love the reverse racism from blacks when white people have to watch what they say at all times, whether they believe in the words or not.
If someones really being an annoying cunt and they slip the word cracker than them I will report them just to screw them over. tis still racist.
I completely understand if people get offended by these terms, but nothing actually happens when you get offended. You don't suddenly start experiencing mahoosive headaches every time you get offended; you don't become horrifically ill whenever someone uses the word "faggot". People need to grow up and start to accept the society that they're in and the words that are used within that society.
On July 12 2011 20:52 Lankeer wrote: I completely understand if people get offended by these terms; but nothing actually happens when you get offended. You don't suddenly start experiencing mahoosive headaches every time you get offended, you don't become horrifically ill whenever someone uses the word "faggot". People need to grow up and start to accept the society that they're in and the words that are used within that society.
not true. some people actually do experience psychosomatic symptoms from said words. Then again, there's people out there who use said words to bring things to court like "I felt harassed and couldn't do my job", because it nets them a cash settlement and screws over the person who dared say anything that could've been slightly offensive.
Im all for dealing with true bigotry when its also harmful, but then again, the abusers of the system make even the victims look bad.
On July 12 2011 20:52 Lankeer wrote: I completely understand if people get offended by these terms; but nothing actually happens when you get offended. You don't suddenly start experiencing mahoosive headaches every time you get offended, you don't become horrifically ill whenever someone uses the word "faggot". People need to grow up and start to accept the society that they're in and the words that are used within that society.
not true. some people actually do experience psychosomatic symptoms from said words. Then again, there's people out there who use said words to bring things to court like "I felt harassed and couldn't do my job", because it nets them a cash settlement and screws over the person who dared say anything that could've been slightly offensive.
Im all for dealing with true bigotry when its also harmful, but then again, the abusers of the system make even the victims look bad.
Sorry I should have rephrased that: NORMAL people don't experience physical symptoms as a result of being offended.
On July 12 2011 17:59 Malyce wrote: Words like "fag" or "gay" are primarily used to designate homosexuals. There's a reason for which these words and not others were used to designate bad players/cheesers/all-iners.
Even if it has become a slang and has been normalised doesn't mean it's still fine to use them. It's just that people don't realise that to a certain minority, the use of such language is offensive.
In other words if you are a homosexual, you cheese a dude and he calls you "fkin fag", even if he means "your play is annoying", textually it's still "you play like a gay person, in other words very bad", and as a member of the targetted community you can and probably will feel legitimately offended.
You can also see it this way. It's unfair to gay people that "gay" is used to designate bad play. Why isn't the word "hetero" used instead? Quite frankly the only reason is that the gaming community has been and to a certain extent still is homophobic and homophobic rants have normalised into everyday language.
But those "gay" people are also "full of joy or mirth" which is basically what the word means... unless you meant the slang form of it...it'd be completely different... "full of joy or mirth" at the time of origin
When people began using the word in videogames, or in general as an insult, they weren't referring to "full of joy". They were referring to the homosexuality.
Basically when we pick up these insults today, we're recycling the heritage of our homophobic forefathers. Just like the "n" word with the heritage of former slave owners. Not a heritage I'd like to pick up.
You guys are hard to argue/discuss things with. Too narrow view on how people use words. Too many assumptions.
If you think you know why people use these words. Then you highly assumptive. Just be humble and inquisitive. At least then you would be willing to learn from the world.
Tip: Everyone is an individual. 2 people can say the same thing, both with completely different reasons and emotions.
Lastly, You know not these people on the internet.
Sure when you use the word "fag" you don't mean to bash on a certain group of people, just on your opponent. And it would be fine if that was an objective way to see it.
Thing is words aren't neutral, they have a history, and the reason "gay" is used as an insult has a pretty bad history. Maybe not for you, but why would you want to hurt somebody who has had to live through discrimination for being gay?
There are litteraly hundreds of words you can use to evacuate your frustration, why use those that bear a difficult past for some groups of people? It's easy to change.
Sure everyone is an individual, but everyone is also capable of empathy. Why offend people when you can chose not to do so?
Edit Zetter: perhaps you feel particularly offended by that word because you're german? All these words offend different people, so project the feeling you get when called nazi to a gay person called faggot, it's roughly the same.
Do you honestly think that a 16 year old playing a game of Starcraft, get's a bit annoyed by his 7th 6pooling opponent is going to think "my opponent might actually be gay" before lashing out with the word fag? There's no more depth in the thought process other than "that's a funny word to use" when a gamer insults someone...
Once again it's people overthinking and using their hypersensitivity to try and censor the population... grow up and grow some thick skin like the rest of us had too...
To quote Steve Hughes - "You want to live in a democracy, but you never want to be offended again...?"
Not the issue.
The point isn't if you are actually referring to gay people or not. The point is that words have a meaning beyond the one you're willing to give them.
You can offend someone unintentionnaly, hell most of the people you offend you probably do so unintentionnaly (at least I hope for your sake). Is it still a reason to do it? If somebody tells you "please don't use the word fag in front of me, it offends me", would you then stop using it? Do you really need to be told?
Democracy means respect for people as equals. Discrimination is not a part of democracy. You can dislike me because you think I'm stupid, arrogant or hypersensitive. Not because I have blue eyes. It's that simple.
On July 12 2011 19:29 3772 wrote: Some people are just looking for reasons to feel offended butthurt. Definitely not an issue.
On July 12 2011 19:01 BlackJack wrote: It's funny how many white males from 1st world countries are posting like "I never get offended by discriminatory language on the internet."
Really? As a white male you don't get offended when someone calls you a nigger? Give yourself a round of applause...
I don't get offended when someone calls me a nigger, that's true. But I don't get offended when someone calls me white+insult (etc) either.
While funny, that's not the case everywhere in the world
In South Africa for instance there are little things called "Black Economic Empowerment" and "Affirmative Action" and sports "quotas", which basically mean: If you're a white male, please go stand at the back of the queue. We need to try and fill positions with other races and females first, even if they're less qualified, before we have a look at you. Thank you for your time! Louis CK talked about it happening in the future, but it's already here ^_^
If you're white, no son, you gotta earn that scholarship by superb marks and showing your brain is up to it. There is no white guy scholarship, and if there was people would be crying "racism" to the top of the hills. .
On July 12 2011 20:52 Lankeer wrote: I completely understand if people get offended by these terms; but nothing actually happens when you get offended. You don't suddenly start experiencing mahoosive headaches every time you get offended, you don't become horrifically ill whenever someone uses the word "faggot". People need to grow up and start to accept the society that they're in and the words that are used within that society.
not true. some people actually do experience psychosomatic symptoms from said words. Then again, there's people out there who use said words to bring things to court like "I felt harassed and couldn't do my job", because it nets them a cash settlement and screws over the person who dared say anything that could've been slightly offensive.
Im all for dealing with true bigotry when its also harmful, but then again, the abusers of the system make even the victims look bad.
I'd gladly do that in response to whatever said words were used, too. Although I actually don't mind whatever words they said... but money is money...
I read your post OP, and I don't quite understand.
Personally, I use the "N" word around black people but I am Russian myself, they call me whitey, I call them "n" I use racist jokes often enough around my Mexican friends, they use Russian jokes on me.
I've dated Latina's and black girls also, but people constantly call me the racist. My question is, are you referring to people like me, who actually do not care about these term, and these "racist" terms we find comical at best.
From my personal stand point, I don't find it offense and if people do find it offense, I sometimes feel they are actually the racist ones, I can't know this from a fact, it's of course a speculation.
On July 12 2011 19:36 Lucidity wrote: This is simply not true. There will be people who associate "being gay" with "bad", but everyone that uses "gay" in a negative way do not necessarily. Words can have multiple meanings totally unrelated to one another. I can call someone a faggot when I dislike them, but I definitely don't harbour any hatred towards homosexuals.
I am certain that you have no problem with someone using the word "gay" to mean "happy". So why do you have a problem with people using "gay" to mean "you suck". They are simply different definitions of a word. Few people imply that "you are homosexual and therefore you suck" when they say gay, and the sooner you realise this fact the less offended you can feel! (on behalf of others or not)
As someone who actually /is/ gay, I can say that when someone lashes out online and calls me a "faggot" even though I know that it doesn't carry homophobic connotations (usually), it still makes me feel terrible.
The reason isn't that someone is mad at me on the internet for doing something they didn't like, the reason is because they are using a derogatory term for something I cannot control about myself in a way that intends to insult and demean the other party. It would sound ridiculous to use something like "you are so straight" as an insult, and that is because in most people's minds, being straight isnt something to debase someone over. Being gay, even though most people wouldn't call themselves homophobic, seems to be mentally engraved into most people as a reason to debase others.
It reminds me of a book I read where the main character had a grandfather who called black people "niggers", but vehemently denied racism of any sort.
Anyway, I don't usually think less of people who use that language online, because I know they didn't mean it like that, but it still hurts a little on the inside because it is a reminder of the current popular opinion of latent homophobia.
While it's unfortunate that you feel a little hurt on the inside, that's life You will learn to ignore or accept the language with time. (Hopefully)
The fact of the matter is that "you are so straight" isn't comparable to "you are so gay". Most people don't mean "you have an attraction to the same sex and therefore you suck". Even if they did... It's just something that you have to learn to deal with. Many people use the word "nerd" as an insult. The fact is there is still quite a stigma attached to it. When I'm called a nerd I can choose to feel offended and get butthurt, or I can realise that it's not something to be ashamed about ... it's not really an insult at all. I suggest you do the same with gay related insults. As long as you don't feel ashamed of being gay, you should be able to laugh at the close minded individuals who do!
Just a little note on the "don't do things that can cause offense" thing. Some people expect others to avoid the word "gay", because homosexuals can take offense. I can tell you that most Christians find gay sex incredibly offensive, and if they had their way it would be banned! But I'm sure you wouldn't support banning that action on the basis of it causing offense... (Just like most people wouldn't support banning the use of goddamn/christ/jesus etc)
For the most part, I do ignore it, I understand it does happen and, for someone who has been in the competitive fps scene for a while, it really just slides off me most of the time. I think I wasn't being entirely clear in my post. It is more the idea that people are using the term in such a way that continues the subtext idea that homosexuality is in some way a reason to look down on someone.
I took a course last fall called African American Literature that explored the way that African American authors described the subtextual subjugation of African Americans after the abolition of slavery and how/why using racial slurs, even today nearly 150 years after the emancipation, continues the subtextual idea of that subjugation.
To say that words should have no power is naive and ignorant of the fact that words are how we express ideas. While words cannot hurt, we only need to look at history to see how ideas can destroy, enslave, slaughter and maim entire groups for trivial and nonsensical reasons.
I don't think, or even want, the word "gay" or even the word "faggot" to be banned or for people to not be allowed to express the ideas (no matter how hateful) they want. That is not what our basic freedoms are about. I want to live in a world where people don't use an uncontrollable part of someone's life as a reason to treat them and think about them as people less worthy of basic rights as them. And for every person online that just flings those words around without a care for the feelings of the person they are talking to (essentially harmless and not necessarily homophobic/racist) there is someone in the real world who tries, through donations, legislation or action (picketing, riots, demonstrations all the way to hate crimes, bullying and slaughter) to subjugate and harm those same groups of people.
I don't think we are ever going to remove hateful speech from the internet, and I dont really even want to. I just hope that some people will realize that their words to have effects on other people and "shrug it off, walk away" is basically telling them, through proxy, that hateful behavior is okay.
How to deal with discrimination or other offensive bs in SC2 and other games:
1: block communication 2: report
It's really that simple folks! Also if racism is involved and I have the opportunity to report such behavior, I know he's going to get a strike against his account at the very least, puts a smile on my face :D
On July 12 2011 19:36 Lucidity wrote: This is simply not true. There will be people who associate "being gay" with "bad", but everyone that uses "gay" in a negative way do not necessarily. Words can have multiple meanings totally unrelated to one another. I can call someone a faggot when I dislike them, but I definitely don't harbour any hatred towards homosexuals.
I am certain that you have no problem with someone using the word "gay" to mean "happy". So why do you have a problem with people using "gay" to mean "you suck". They are simply different definitions of a word. Few people imply that "you are homosexual and therefore you suck" when they say gay, and the sooner you realise this fact the less offended you can feel! (on behalf of others or not)
As someone who actually /is/ gay, I can say that when someone lashes out online and calls me a "faggot" even though I know that it doesn't carry homophobic connotations (usually), it still makes me feel terrible.
The reason isn't that someone is mad at me on the internet for doing something they didn't like, the reason is because they are using a derogatory term for something I cannot control about myself in a way that intends to insult and demean the other party. It would sound ridiculous to use something like "you are so straight" as an insult, and that is because in most people's minds, being straight isnt something to debase someone over. Being gay, even though most people wouldn't call themselves homophobic, seems to be mentally engraved into most people as a reason to debase others.
you know what also sounds rediculous? calling someone a dick. can someone actually be a dick? Are you actually referring to him being a large male sex organ? no you aren't.
Why is this? because cuss words dont have to make sence. take fuck you, it makes no sense. who will fuck who? and why? it's just a phrase and doesnt have a literal meaning, alot of cuss words or phrases don't.
noone is trying to debase someone because they're gay (well, usually), and just because you made the example of "you're so straight" doesnt prove that there is some hidden gay hate. See my above examples. it's just a phrase, it often has no literal meaning.(although it CAN be used that way obviously)
if you feel terrible about it then that's unfortunate. it's sad people make themselves feel bad about a word, even when they understand the way it's used.
honestly people should stop being so god damn sensitive. god half the fun of playing starcraft is have someone call you a fag / jew / nigga / dick / cockfag / bitch / motherfucker etc.
anyone being offended by that shit should learn to be a little more thick skinned. It will make you a better person IRL. Just accept Internet trash talk for what it is. some fool who probably lost to you having no other way to express his anger besides calling you a black man or jew or gay or some other shit. So what lol! Its not meant to offend you. TBQH if you get offended then you probably are exactly what that person is calling you.
Say thanks lol + GG / Must be true cos i did just butt rape you and move on. its really not that hard.
First they came for the gays and I did not speak up because I was not gay Then they came for the jews and I did not speak up because I was not a jew Then they came for the blacks and I did not speak up because I was not black Then they came for me and no one was left to speak up
First they came for the communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.
Learn your history. It's not a poem. It's a statement by a German pastor named Martin Niemöller, who lived in Nazi Germany, about his days before he was sent to the camps as a political prisoner.
You cannot possibly make me believe that what some 13 year old idiot spouts on his keyboard equates to oppressive racial discrimination and fascism.
I think what he is in-eloquently trying to say with this is the axiom "give an inch, they will take a mile", like the "give a mouse a cookie.." story. Which is true. Corporations do it to consumers. Why cant you play SC2 offline forever when you bought the CD and it can check to see if the CD is real upon playing it every time, which is technology they've thrown out in favor of tethering you PERMA style to the internet and their servers to play a game you bought? Because consumers let them "come for the freedom of offline play", and "noone spoke out because they are addicted to entertainment" (see the book entertaining ourselves to death).
The same thing also happens with government controls and restrictions and ALL other forms of bullying, be it faceless internet OR making laws up to subjugate faceless internet users and eventually turning it into a face-to-face law that imprisons people for the slightest peep. btw, imprisonment is a lasting condition of equal rights revocation, even after you have paid your dues. no longer allowed to vote, because maybe people that have been to prison have learned the ugly secrets of the government system of control and abuse and would change it legally? Oh noes! prison guards are specifically taught to mix groups of people together in unequal numbers so race wars occur and get more strikes against inmates to keep them in prison forever. Prisons get paid per prisoner, so they want prisoner retention, even if a few die over it. because after all, they're scum of humanity right? but its fleecing taxpayer dollars to spend 20+ years in prison when most non-retarded countries have a max of 8 years or so. crime rates to prison time is ridiculous in the U.S. Canada has an 8 year policy, and they get to leave and do stuff in the community after 6 years, but have to come back for bedtime. And look at their violent crime rates.
like the saying "treat people as if they are crazy/bad/etc, and they will become these things'. because like gandhi said "people are the sum of their thoughts, what they think, they become.".
oh snap.
His point is that the axiom "give an inch, they'll take a mile" is as true here as anyone else. Its up to the community to find a happy median that all can compromise on and be unsatisfied with. Thats what democracy is.
On July 12 2011 13:50 Grobyc wrote: Honestly, I think people just need to learn to not take it personally; it's just idiotic people raging and taking their anger out on whoever is available at the moment. I don't expect Blizzard to do anything about it, and I don't think it's their problem.
Sure, some people would have a better experience online (and others the opposite. I love seeing my opponent rage), but this is the internet, and it's near impossible to regulate it the way some people wish. If you get butthurt by seeing crap like that on the internet, chances are you probably get butthurt all the time in person too, so it's only just touching on the actual matter at hand.
I don't think anybody seriously believes we can regulate discrimination away, but can we stop taking the attitude that it's okay to be a hateful dick to people, even if it's just the internet?
Where did I say it's okay to be a hateful dick to people in my post? I just said people need to learn to not take it personally.
You are by dismissing people who actually are affected by hateful and discriminatory speech as merely "butthurt"
In a way, maybe, but I am simply taking a realistic point of view. Of course there are those who are affected deeply by this kind of speech, and that is unfortunate, but realistically, there's not much we can do except encourage people to not take it personally. I'm not one of the people, hence I don't care personally, but I still never said I agree it's ethical for people to use such speech. If they can't handle playing the game and the crap that comes with it then it's too bad for them to be honest, because I don't think it's viable to moderate speech. Chat channels are often filled with tons of that crap as well, as they going to moderate all the channels too? Even if Blizzard was able to monitor what is said effectively, I'm sure the amount of people on battle.net would dwindle drastically and they wouldn't gain a whole lot of out of. There's not enough pushing them to do anything, as can be seen in the poll in the OP.
If somebody goes above and beyond to harass you, and continues to insult you after games then by all means report them and block communication, but it's not viable to do it to every kid who calls you a fag before leaving.
First of all, you don't always know what race, sexual orientation, religion, or nationality a person is when you reply/post/talk to them on the Internet. Most discriminatory language is either a shot on the dark or simply an expression of rage, and anyone trying to regulate that is just clamping down on free speech.
If you're mad, reply to the post, turn on the filter, send in your report (for Blizzard to ignore), or block the other player. Deal with problems yourself and stop making them other people's problems. + Show Spoiler [It's the Internet; I can say wh…] +
I don't like:
Women who treat men like doormats
Serbians
Cocky Persians
Rude Chinese and Indian people
White Knights
Dishonest people
People who tell me how I can and can't act based on some hippie moral opinion
If you don't like it, close the spoiler or read something else.
On July 12 2011 23:54 TheGiz wrote: This is not an issue.
First of all, you don't always know what race, sexual orientation, religion, or nationality a person is when you reply/post/talk to them on the Internet. Most discriminatory language is either a shot on the dark or simply an expression of rage, and anyone trying to regulate that is just clamping down on free speech.
If you're mad, reply to the post, turn on the filter, send in your report (for Blizzard to ignore), or block the other player. Deal with problems yourself and stop making them other people's problems. + Show Spoiler [It's the Internet; I can say wh…] +
I don't like:
Women who treat men like doormats
Serbians
Cocky Persians
Rude Chinese and Indian people
White Knights
Dishonest people
People who tell me how I can and can't act based on some hippie moral opinion
If you don't like it, close the spoiler or read something else.
So according to your logic, calling a bunch of unsavory white individuals 'niggers' is perfectly acceptable?
I think the problem is much deeper than Blizzard can regulate. I've definitely thought more about this because it's become more prevalent in the matches I've played. To preface, I am gay and have gotten called f-g in several games before and after divulging me being gay (I only divulged once cause I was provoked by smack talking and when asked what league I was in, I said rainbow league). It angered me more than regular smack talking and I butchered them so I guess that was one positive.
The problem is more that everyone, as a global society, thinks it's okay to use these words in negative connotations. It's only when it gets to a public professional level in sports that there are consequences (Kobe and Joakim in the NBA are recent examples) but when it comes to the equivalent of pickup games or just any other part of life, people think it's okay to still use these words. I understand anger and smack talking but I'd rather the vocabulary be gender, race, and sexual orientation-neutral. These words carry history for a lot of people and the f-word carries a lot of weight for my personal history as well.
Having said that, I don't think there's a good way to regulate this on Blizard's part unless they really exercise some zero-tolerance policy with filtered words getting some auto-warning or ban or for review. On a personal level, did I feel like it was my job to educate everyone who used these words in matches? Maybe, but it seemed impossible in that arena. The anonymity factor also plays into it the other way around in that I know that I wouldn't be able to get through to someone unless they were receptive and it was in person.
On July 13 2011 01:12 Chopin- wrote: I get anger and smack talking but I'd rather it be gender, race, and sexual orientation-neutral.
lol what
"Your level of play is below mine, but that does not mean you are a lesser human being." "I disagree, in my opinion you are the lesser skilled player. No offense."
Guys, you have a variety of options online that don't exist in your day to day life in regards to slurs and offensive behavior. Firstly, I hardly think it's "discrimination" online, so much so as more loose use of slurs. Unless you're saying, "I'm black, gl hf" and he responds, "Fuck you nigger", it's not really "discriminatory" because he probably called white, asian, latino people a "nigger" that day, it's just someone using slurs.
Regardless, when someone says something offensive to you in real life, you're generally in close proximity with them, it's directly obnoxious and offensive. Online, you just press a couple of buttons and they go away, I might report people who are excessive obnoxious, particularly in team games, but it's a not really an issue to me overall.
Grow some fangs and join/ignore the melee. It will only get worst as the average age of internet users goes down. That being said, there's a pretty clear distinction between trash talking and harassment, I'm very much against the later.
On July 12 2011 20:52 Lankeer wrote: I completely understand if people get offended by these terms, but nothing actually happens when you get offended. You don't suddenly start experiencing mahoosive headaches every time you get offended; you don't become horrifically ill whenever someone uses the word "faggot". People need to grow up and start to accept the society that they're in and the words that are used within that society.
I like how the people who are the quickest to say, "Get over it," are people who've probably never faced discrimination.
On July 13 2011 01:36 Co-lol-sus wrote: I lot of people in this thread sure have done a good job of figuring out how the world works when they're still so young.
Quit being so discriminating against young people - you'll crush their fragile psyches! Old people also have no idea what the hell is going on here on this rock. I can attest to that at my ancient 29 years of service..
On July 12 2011 20:52 Lankeer wrote: I completely understand if people get offended by these terms, but nothing actually happens when you get offended. You don't suddenly start experiencing mahoosive headaches every time you get offended; you don't become horrifically ill whenever someone uses the word "faggot". People need to grow up and start to accept the society that they're in and the words that are used within that society.
I like how the people who are the quickest to say, "Get over it," are people who've probably never faced discrimination.
Society could never be wrong, could it?
Admittedly, most of us haven't experienced discrimination online. It's kind of hard considering the whole anonymous part of the internet making it difficult to discriminate based on race, gender, and sex.
For fuck sake... They don't know you, they don't even know what you look like, why the christ would anyone give a fuck about what some (most likely) 12 year old basement dweller says?
You either laugh it off or completely ignore it, any other action is simply being stupid, you choose to be offended by the shit some random spouts out in the heat of the moment and that is entirely your problem.
You shouldn't care, that's how ppl feel better after they get angry. Some ppl punch walls, some scream at the monitor and some call the other guy names.
On July 12 2011 20:52 Lankeer wrote: I completely understand if people get offended by these terms, but nothing actually happens when you get offended. You don't suddenly start experiencing mahoosive headaches every time you get offended; you don't become horrifically ill whenever someone uses the word "faggot". People need to grow up and start to accept the society that they're in and the words that are used within that society.
I like how the people who are the quickest to say, "Get over it," are people who've probably never faced discrimination.
Society could never be wrong, could it?
Everybody faces discrimination one way or another eventually, men get over it move on and try to proove it wrong, babies whine about it not beeing fair and deuchebags rage over it.
Yes. Imagine how hard the line would be to draw between what is offensive and what is just profane in terms of what to punish people for saying. If more gamers are white it's in no small part due to whites being majority or plurality in most locales TL controls. Doubtless Latin America and Taiwan have their own set of vocabulary that carry multiple meanings not used in grandma's circles. So how far does that line go? White people get called names (i.e., in childhood) for all kinds of reasons just like everyone else be it weight, face, clothes, money, shitty bike, we all learn to get over it. Especially on the internet it comes with the territory and it makes for fun, if unrefined, repartee. I suggest those who would feel discriminated - and more importantly, those who are sticking up for perhaps imaginary people who don't actually feel discriminated against - to get over it and not expect Blizzard to sugarcoat the world for you.
Lol. Half the people in this thread are obviously not concerned about "internet discrimination" as brought up by the OP but are bringing up other very relevant points that the OP brings to light and the other half are people jumping on the bandwagon with things like "butthurt" and "get over it"
If you're going to participate in a serious conversation like an adult, please at least read the post.
On July 13 2011 04:26 jarrydesque wrote: Lol. Half the people in this thread are obviously not concerned about "internet discrimination" as brought up by the OP but are bringing up other very relevant points that the OP brings to light and the other half are people jumping on the bandwagon with things like "butthurt" and "get over it"
If you're going to participate in a serious conversation like an adult, please at least read the post.
Internet Discrimination....Hmmm you want everyone to replace words like gay or nigger with "I don't like how you played", or "you are annoying me" People use these words, cause they are easy, and often get a rise(or desired response out of people[see trolling]).
Please understand that you choose to go on the internet. YOU choose to play Starcraft. AND you can choose to block people.
The internet is not like real life, if it was. I would slap you through your monitor.
Real Life: I can actually bully you. Internet: I cannot actually bully you, IF you choose to just block/avoid me.
Also. Thanks for assuming being an "adult" = agreeing with your point of view.
On July 13 2011 04:26 jarrydesque wrote: Lol. Half the people in this thread are obviously not concerned about "internet discrimination" as brought up by the OP but are bringing up other very relevant points that the OP brings to light and the other half are people jumping on the bandwagon with things like "butthurt" and "get over it"
If you're going to participate in a serious conversation like an adult, please at least read the post.
Internet Discrimination....Hmmm you want everyone to replace words like gay or nigger with "I don't like how you played", or "you are annoying me" People use these words, cause they are easy, and often get a rise(or desired response out of people[see trolling]).
Please understand that you choose to go on the internet. YOU choose to play Starcraft. AND you can choose to block people.
The internet is not like real life, if it was. I would slap you through your monitor.
Real Life: I can actually bully you. Internet: I cannot actually bully you, IF you choose to just block/avoid me.
Also. Thanks for assuming being an "adult" = agreeing with your point of view.
Sigh. Just... no.
If you READ my post you might notice that I asked everyone to READ posts before they jumped on bandwagons saying how the OP was nonsense.[see post]
You will notice if you READ my post, I said nothing actually supporting the OP. I said that other issues were being brought to light in this thread that are important. But instead people like you who don't READ are missing them completely because you are too busy jumping on the bandwagon flashing your dick around saying things like "It's the internet maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan, grow some balls maaaaaaaaaaaaaan, don't be such a sissy, maaaaaaaaaaaan".
So essentially, you did exactly what I was asking people not to do, and then tried to call me out on a view that I don't share. Now I don't know if you're trolling or simply struggle with reading.
Also thanks for saying dumb, unfounded things at the end of your posts.
On July 13 2011 04:26 jarrydesque wrote: Lol. Half the people in this thread are obviously not concerned about "internet discrimination" as brought up by the OP but are bringing up other very relevant points that the OP brings to light and the other half are people jumping on the bandwagon with things like "butthurt" and "get over it"
If you're going to participate in a serious conversation like an adult, please at least read the post.
Internet Discrimination....Hmmm you want everyone to replace words like gay or nigger with "I don't like how you played", or "you are annoying me" People use these words, cause they are easy, and often get a rise(or desired response out of people[see trolling]).
Please understand that you choose to go on the internet. YOU choose to play Starcraft. AND you can choose to block people.
The internet is not like real life, if it was. I would slap you through your monitor.
Real Life: I can actually bully you. Internet: I cannot actually bully you, IF you choose to just block/avoid me.
Also. Thanks for assuming being an "adult" = agreeing with your point of view.
Sigh. Just... no.
If you READ my post you might notice that I asked everyone to READ posts before they jumped on bandwagons saying how the OP was nonsense.[see post]
You will notice if you READ my post, I said nothing actually supporting the OP. I said that other issues were being brought to light in this thread that are important. But instead people like you who don't READ are missing them completely because you are too busy jumping on the bandwagon flashing your dick around saying things like "It's the internet maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan, grow some balls maaaaaaaaaaaaaan, don't be such a sissy, maaaaaaaaaaaan".
So essentially, you did exactly what I was asking people not to do, and then tried to call me out on a view that I don't share. Now I don't know if you're trolling or simply struggle with reading.
Also thanks for saying dumb, unfounded things at the end of your posts.
And they are...?
You cannot point at a whole thread and assume that people will know what you refer to. Make a direct link to the points raised. OR re-raise them.
Don't expect others to automatically know what you are referring to.
Even if I read every single post in this thread. How am I to know which ones you are referring to? Do you see the issue here?
can we just agree that anyone who has an excuse will use their "special" status like 'gay' or a minority, to get butthurt and feel a sense of entitlement that no other uninteresting straight white person could ever hope to achieve? its a power grab via whine mechanic, and you don't even need good macro.
On July 13 2011 01:19 Mordiford wrote: Guys, you have a variety of options online that don't exist in your day to day life in regards to slurs and offensive behavior. Firstly, I hardly think it's "discrimination" online, so much so as more loose use of slurs. Unless you're saying, "I'm black, gl hf" and he responds, "Fuck you nigger", it's not really "discriminatory" because he probably called white, asian, latino people a "nigger" that day, it's just someone using slurs.
It's a derogatory term for black people, that people use as a word to basically put somebody else down. How do you not see the connection here? I'm not saying people are being purposefully malicious when they use derogatory terms online, but I think people have to learn to understand that things like this aren't socially acceptable, so why do we have to put up with it online? There are plenty of words you can use to insult somebody without the implication that you consider being that minority makes you a lesser person.
On July 13 2011 04:26 jarrydesque wrote: Lol. Half the people in this thread are obviously not concerned about "internet discrimination" as brought up by the OP but are bringing up other very relevant points that the OP brings to light and the other half are people jumping on the bandwagon with things like "butthurt" and "get over it"
If you're going to participate in a serious conversation like an adult, please at least read the post.
Internet Discrimination....Hmmm you want everyone to replace words like gay or nigger with "I don't like how you played", or "you are annoying me" People use these words, cause they are easy, and often get a rise(or desired response out of people[see trolling]).
Please understand that you choose to go on the internet. YOU choose to play Starcraft. AND you can choose to block people.
The internet is not like real life, if it was. I would slap you through your monitor.
Real Life: I can actually bully you. Internet: I cannot actually bully you, IF you choose to just block/avoid me.
Also. Thanks for assuming being an "adult" = agreeing with your point of view.
Sigh. Just... no.
If you READ my post you might notice that I asked everyone to READ posts before they jumped on bandwagons saying how the OP was nonsense.[see post]
You will notice if you READ my post, I said nothing actually supporting the OP. I said that other issues were being brought to light in this thread that are important. But instead people like you who don't READ are missing them completely because you are too busy jumping on the bandwagon flashing your dick around saying things like "It's the internet maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan, grow some balls maaaaaaaaaaaaaan, don't be such a sissy, maaaaaaaaaaaan".
So essentially, you did exactly what I was asking people not to do, and then tried to call me out on a view that I don't share. Now I don't know if you're trolling or simply struggle with reading.
Also thanks for saying dumb, unfounded things at the end of your posts.
And they are...?
You cannot point at a whole thread and assume that people will know what you refer to. Make a direct link to the points raised. OR re-raise them.
Don't expect others to automatically know what you are referring to.
Even if I read every single post in this thread. How am I to know which ones you are referring to? Do you see the issue here?
They are points that are raised that are not the OP's view but do in fact create a compelling argument. In the last 3 pages there have been a number of these different perspectives and a number of idiotic posts not catching onto the fact that they are different views. I'm not going to reference every one. It was a general request to those currently discussing in this thread that different issues are being raised and that if people stopped saying "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" for long enough to read them, they might realize this.
If you're specifically interested in the argument that everyone is ignoring the most, it is covered by the poster above me.
On July 13 2011 01:19 Mordiford wrote: Guys, you have a variety of options online that don't exist in your day to day life in regards to slurs and offensive behavior. Firstly, I hardly think it's "discrimination" online, so much so as more loose use of slurs. Unless you're saying, "I'm black, gl hf" and he responds, "Fuck you nigger", it's not really "discriminatory" because he probably called white, asian, latino people a "nigger" that day, it's just someone using slurs.
It's a derogatory term for black people, that people use as a word to basically put somebody else down. How do you not see the connection here? I'm not saying people are being purposefully malicious when they use derogatory terms online, but I think people have to learn to understand that things like this aren't socially acceptable, so why do we have to put up with it online? There are plenty of words you can use to insult somebody without the implication that you consider being that minority makes you a lesser person.
Again people, You are taking a word and putting your own assumptions on it.
In regards to being socially acceptable? How many times on TV do you see Negroes, calling their friend(s) "nigger(s)"? LOADS It's about context and personal meaning. Learn that please. Yes It can be taken personally. Yes it has historically "negative" connections. But guess what. Bitching about it won't help anyone. What will help is using the words like gay/nigger/cunt/bitch/etc in positive terms.
AND yes, they can be used in positive terms.
People do understand that nigger is a derogatory word for a Negro/African american/other culturally sensitive word here. They do see the connection that it can be a put down.
Also. Please, please understand that you have no "rights" to be protected from negative words on the internet. People will continue to use these words. AND it will be socially acceptable. BECAUSE socially acceptable is whatever the social group accepts at any given time.
It's not law, you have no 'internet' rights, No one is harming you. YOU ARE ON THE INTERNET. Get off the internet if you are truly offended.
On July 13 2011 01:19 Mordiford wrote: Guys, you have a variety of options online that don't exist in your day to day life in regards to slurs and offensive behavior. Firstly, I hardly think it's "discrimination" online, so much so as more loose use of slurs. Unless you're saying, "I'm black, gl hf" and he responds, "Fuck you nigger", it's not really "discriminatory" because he probably called white, asian, latino people a "nigger" that day, it's just someone using slurs.
It's a derogatory term for black people, that people use as a word to basically put somebody else down. How do you not see the connection here? I'm not saying people are being purposefully malicious when they use derogatory terms online, but I think people have to learn to understand that things like this aren't socially acceptable, so why do we have to put up with it online? There are plenty of words you can use to insult somebody without the implication that you consider being that minority makes you a lesser person.
Again people, You are taking a word and putting your own assumptions on it.
In regards to being socially acceptable? How many times on TV do you see Negroes, calling their friend(s) "nigger(s)"? LOADS It's about context and personal meaning. Learn that please. Yes It can be taken personally. Yes it has historically "negative" connections. But guess what. Bitching about it won't help anyone. What will help is using the words like gay/nigger/cunt/bitch/etc in positive terms.
AND yes, they can be used in positive terms.
I do understand context. That's why I understand that somebody getting mad on the internet and calling somebody "nigger" does imply that you think being black means you're less of a human. We're not talking about the context of people using these terms in a positive light, or if such a thing even exists (it doesn't, by the way.) What I'm talking about is people using these words as a putdown and the very real implications behind them and how they can affect other people.
There is a report function, if getting severely harassed you can use that. I have personally used it a couple of times against people who were being completely morons and assaulting me as a person, rather than the usual stuff like "WTF ZERG IMBA [insert unit here] BLA BLA".
I don't see any issue, at least as long as that function is used and Blizzard actually takes action, which I do believe is the case.
On July 13 2011 01:19 Mordiford wrote: Guys, you have a variety of options online that don't exist in your day to day life in regards to slurs and offensive behavior. Firstly, I hardly think it's "discrimination" online, so much so as more loose use of slurs. Unless you're saying, "I'm black, gl hf" and he responds, "Fuck you nigger", it's not really "discriminatory" because he probably called white, asian, latino people a "nigger" that day, it's just someone using slurs.
It's a derogatory term for black people, that people use as a word to basically put somebody else down. How do you not see the connection here? I'm not saying people are being purposefully malicious when they use derogatory terms online, but I think people have to learn to understand that things like this aren't socially acceptable, so why do we have to put up with it online? There are plenty of words you can use to insult somebody without the implication that you consider being that minority makes you a lesser person.
Again people, You are taking a word and putting your own assumptions on it.
In regards to being socially acceptable? How many times on TV do you see Negroes, calling their friend(s) "nigger(s)"? LOADS It's about context and personal meaning. Learn that please. Yes It can be taken personally. Yes it has historically "negative" connections. But guess what. Bitching about it won't help anyone. What will help is using the words like gay/nigger/cunt/bitch/etc in positive terms.
AND yes, they can be used in positive terms.
I do understand context. That's why I understand that somebody getting mad on the internet and calling somebody "nigger" does imply that you think being black means you're less of a human. We're not talking about the context of people using these terms in a positive light, or if such a thing even exists (it doesn't, by the way.) What I'm talking about is people using these words as a putdown and the very real implications behind them and how they can affect other people.
Ok, this is where you and I differ. Also, I am just going have to stop replying to this thread.
I don't hold the belief the word "nigger" inherently implies that the user of the word thinks blacks are less of a human, OR even infers that in using the word generates the belief that blacks are less of a human in others.
So this is my last response to this thread.
Finishing summary. Words hold within humans only the meaning that is given to them. These meanings can change. Both negative and positive meanings can co-exists within 1 word.
I truly hope you can see this.
Edit: Updated from "things" to "thinks" - Minor mistake
On July 13 2011 01:19 Mordiford wrote: Guys, you have a variety of options online that don't exist in your day to day life in regards to slurs and offensive behavior. Firstly, I hardly think it's "discrimination" online, so much so as more loose use of slurs. Unless you're saying, "I'm black, gl hf" and he responds, "Fuck you nigger", it's not really "discriminatory" because he probably called white, asian, latino people a "nigger" that day, it's just someone using slurs.
It's a derogatory term for black people, that people use as a word to basically put somebody else down. How do you not see the connection here? I'm not saying people are being purposefully malicious when they use derogatory terms online, but I think people have to learn to understand that things like this aren't socially acceptable, so why do we have to put up with it online? There are plenty of words you can use to insult somebody without the implication that you consider being that minority makes you a lesser person.
Again people, You are taking a word and putting your own assumptions on it.
In regards to being socially acceptable? How many times on TV do you see Negroes, calling their friend(s) "nigger(s)"? LOADS It's about context and personal meaning. Learn that please. Yes It can be taken personally. Yes it has historically "negative" connections. But guess what. Bitching about it won't help anyone. What will help is using the words like gay/nigger/cunt/bitch/etc in positive terms.
AND yes, they can be used in positive terms.
People do understand that nigger is a derogatory word for a Negro/African american/other culturally sensitive word here. They do see the connection that it can be a put down.
Also. Please, please understand that you have no "rights" to be protected from negative words on the internet. People will continue to use these words. AND it will be socially acceptable. BECAUSE socially acceptable is whatever the social group accepts at any given time.
It's not law, you have no 'internet' rights, No one is harming you. YOU ARE ON THE INTERNET. Get off the internet if you are truly offended.
Edit: Grammar
Ok man, I agree that there are no "rights" to be protected from harsh language online.
However, the bolded part is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. I'm not gonna go into a whole "nigger" vs "nigga" debate, but its funny that you think that using the N-word in a positive light will change everything when, as you say so yourself, black people have been using that word positively for decades now. Centuries even.
And yet people who dont like black people will still use it as a derogatory slur. As long as there are people who want to use those words as an insult, it doesnt matter how many people try to use it as a positive term. It will just make it so people will use the term in both ways.
People say that something is "sick" or something is "filthy" in a positive manner all the time. I hear those words used in a positive way more often than I hear them used in a negative way. And yet it would still carry weight as an insult if someone used it to describe a person or a race or anything.
PS - Negro is not a very culturally sensitive word
On July 13 2011 01:19 Mordiford wrote: Guys, you have a variety of options online that don't exist in your day to day life in regards to slurs and offensive behavior. Firstly, I hardly think it's "discrimination" online, so much so as more loose use of slurs. Unless you're saying, "I'm black, gl hf" and he responds, "Fuck you nigger", it's not really "discriminatory" because he probably called white, asian, latino people a "nigger" that day, it's just someone using slurs.
It's a derogatory term for black people, that people use as a word to basically put somebody else down. How do you not see the connection here? I'm not saying people are being purposefully malicious when they use derogatory terms online, but I think people have to learn to understand that things like this aren't socially acceptable, so why do we have to put up with it online? There are plenty of words you can use to insult somebody without the implication that you consider being that minority makes you a lesser person.
Again people, You are taking a word and putting your own assumptions on it.
In regards to being socially acceptable? How many times on TV do you see Negroes, calling their friend(s) "nigger(s)"? LOADS It's about context and personal meaning. Learn that please. Yes It can be taken personally. Yes it has historically "negative" connections. But guess what. Bitching about it won't help anyone. What will help is using the words like gay/nigger/cunt/bitch/etc in positive terms.
AND yes, they can be used in positive terms.
I do understand context. That's why I understand that somebody getting mad on the internet and calling somebody "nigger" does imply that you think being black means you're less of a human. We're not talking about the context of people using these terms in a positive light, or if such a thing even exists (it doesn't, by the way.) What I'm talking about is people using these words as a putdown and the very real implications behind them and how they can affect other people.
Ok, this is where you and I differ. Also, I am just going have to stop replying to this thread.
I don't hold the belief the word "nigger" inherently implies that the user of the word things blacks are less of a human, OR even infers that in using the word generates the belief that blacks are less of a human in others.
So this is my last response to this thread.
Finishing summary. Words hold within humans only the meaning that is given to them. These meanings can change. Both negative and positive meanings can co-exists within 1 word.
I truly hope you can see this.
Ok, tell me this then.
What is a "nigger" and why would you use it as an insult?
On July 13 2011 01:19 Mordiford wrote: Guys, you have a variety of options online that don't exist in your day to day life in regards to slurs and offensive behavior. Firstly, I hardly think it's "discrimination" online, so much so as more loose use of slurs. Unless you're saying, "I'm black, gl hf" and he responds, "Fuck you nigger", it's not really "discriminatory" because he probably called white, asian, latino people a "nigger" that day, it's just someone using slurs.
It's a derogatory term for black people, that people use as a word to basically put somebody else down. How do you not see the connection here? I'm not saying people are being purposefully malicious when they use derogatory terms online, but I think people have to learn to understand that things like this aren't socially acceptable, so why do we have to put up with it online? There are plenty of words you can use to insult somebody without the implication that you consider being that minority makes you a lesser person.
Again people, You are taking a word and putting your own assumptions on it.
In regards to being socially acceptable? How many times on TV do you see Negroes, calling their friend(s) "nigger(s)"? LOADS It's about context and personal meaning. Learn that please. Yes It can be taken personally. Yes it has historically "negative" connections. But guess what. Bitching about it won't help anyone. What will help is using the words like gay/nigger/cunt/bitch/etc in positive terms.
AND yes, they can be used in positive terms.
I do understand context. That's why I understand that somebody getting mad on the internet and calling somebody "nigger" does imply that you think being black means you're less of a human. We're not talking about the context of people using these terms in a positive light, or if such a thing even exists (it doesn't, by the way.) What I'm talking about is people using these words as a putdown and the very real implications behind them and how they can affect other people.
Ok, this is where you and I differ. Also, I am just going have to stop replying to this thread.
I don't hold the belief the word "nigger" inherently implies that the user of the word things blacks are less of a human, OR even infers that in using the word generates the belief that blacks are less of a human in others.
So this is my last response to this thread.
Finishing summary. Words hold within humans only the meaning that is given to them. These meanings can change. Both negative and positive meanings can co-exists within 1 word.
I truly hope you can see this.
Ok, tell me this then.
What is a "nigger" and why would you use it as an insult?
Id wager it wraps up dumb piece of shit/retard/poor bitch in a singular word package, rather than mean someone who's black and therefore inferior. Words used to change meaning all the time, and people used to use words that went bad to good to bad, just like eggs and cholesterol talk. except now everyones become so pussified and sheep-like that Words are starting to die off. Soon we'll only be able to refer to each other as this person and that person, ignoring gender or race completely, like how its now "server" instead of "waiter" "waitress". its as if people want to erase all sexuality and individuality. Even though all terms, all stereotypes, all categoriies, exist because the human mind naturally puts things in a set of this or that. its the main reason girls and boys wonder so early about their genitalia. because it belongs to the "other" and not "them". its separating. The human mind naturally works like that. It wants to draw up dividing lines and sections. thats how it built the world thats around us today.
replacing waiter and waitress with server is still bullshit imo. its actually legal mandate or something because even at hooters they say server, even though its a sexist joint.
There's a few things that I think are worth contributing in this discussion since last I posted...
1) What constitutes the bright-line between language that is offensive and not offensive is a moving target because what offends some people doesn't offend others.--Retard, gay, fatso, etc. I think it's interesting to to interrogate why some discourses are considered more offensive and intolerable than others. What is even more interesting to note is which discourses society says are okay to use and which ones are not. I have yet to see someone say "kike" as an insult on bn or "redneck" or "cracker." The fact that the bn community is predominately middle and upper class has a large reason to do with people are "naturally" picking certain slurs over others.
2) I'm not sure why we wouldn't want to adopt a precautionary principle in regards to the language we use. Whether I meet someone in person, online, or any other circumstance I would want to interact with them in a way that would minimize my chances of offending. If an entire community decides that it is ok to say whatever slur they want (or more in actually a very specific set of homophobic and racial slurs) it is saying that "we don't know who you are so we can say whatever we want and f*ck you if you don't like it" opposed to thinking that we would want to expand our community and make it open for people to participate in from whatever subject position they come from.
3) The continual defense that we don't know who we interact with so it isn't meant that way is a flawed argument because (a) it assumes a race and gender neutrality that priveldges the assumption that people are not a sexual or racial minority and therefore wouldn't take offense; (b) doesn't excuse the choice of discriminatory language that is directly connected with being lame, a loser, bad, etc. This in terms replicates the belief that being gay is really as bad as being someone who 6 pools all the time; and (c) ignores the precautionary principle I would think anyone who wanted interact positively with other people would want to adhere to in this instance.
4) People who say "You don't like it get off the internet" are flat out advocating segregation of communities. In short, if someone is offended because they are gay, are black, are whatever, you're saying get out. This is a white online gaming community and if you don't like people saying nigger than stay out because it's our space is basically what it can be boiled down to. Why should people who want to play games online have to leave because people want to harass them using language that if used in schools, in the workplace, in almost any other context would be reprimanded if done in the way it happens online? Why shouldn't the people who bullies others get out or learn how to get along with others?
On July 13 2011 12:19 sailorferret wrote: Why shouldn't the people who bullies others get out or learn how to get along with others?
Because a lot of gamers are bullied nerds who, far from becoming more sensitive, actually dream of taking the bully pulpit themselves and pick on easier targets.
I used to do it all the time when I was younger. Don't like something? Compare it to a gay. A black. A Jew. Any easy target that you and your friends can all laugh at together. The words (nigger, faggot, etc.) didn't hurt my feelings, so why should they hurt anyone else's, right? Never mind the fact that I would never have actually called a black guy a nigger to his face. It was just the internet, where feelings aren't real and trolling trumps honest discussion.
On July 13 2011 01:19 Mordiford wrote: Guys, you have a variety of options online that don't exist in your day to day life in regards to slurs and offensive behavior. Firstly, I hardly think it's "discrimination" online, so much so as more loose use of slurs. Unless you're saying, "I'm black, gl hf" and he responds, "Fuck you nigger", it's not really "discriminatory" because he probably called white, asian, latino people a "nigger" that day, it's just someone using slurs.
It's a derogatory term for black people, that people use as a word to basically put somebody else down. How do you not see the connection here? I'm not saying people are being purposefully malicious when they use derogatory terms online, but I think people have to learn to understand that things like this aren't socially acceptable, so why do we have to put up with it online? There are plenty of words you can use to insult somebody without the implication that you consider being that minority makes you a lesser person.
This isn't relevant to what I said. Because of the anonymity of the internet, you can't be discriminatory against someone based on their race if you don't know what it is. If someone calls someone else a "nigger", that not discrimination, that's them using a slur.
I'm not addressing the power of the word, or it's acceptability, merely that in an online setting, it's not necessarily discrimination.
Ok, seriously now, what is all this nonsense. Using a word in a positive light... what?
Calling someone nigger/gay/Jew is NOT ok because they are not black/gay/Jewish. As mentioned many times before, it's got nothing to do with the person person you are insulting, but rather it is an insult to those groups (gays, jews, blacks) as they are being used as an everyday insult or they are being made to be seen as "undesireable to be".
And the funniest is all these people going "But it's not offensive!!!". Thats because you're not gay, black or Jewish. I'm gay and I find it very offensive that my sexuality is referred to whenever a halfwit wants to say something is bad/undesirable. Saying these things was born from discrimination and even through they now (mostly) no longer represent their former meaning they still point back to an "offending" minority, single it out and compare it with something bad. It's is STILL discrimination.
Saying that to someone as an insult (even though they are white, straight, christian) and saying that to your friend is very different. I think it's very easy to tell the difference between a term of endearment and an insult. It's kind of impossible to comment on the term of endearment and how that is right/wrong because it depends heavily on the context and how it's said.
I also want to point out that as a gay person, this never really bothered me before. I've even said it myself! But recently, I've given it some thought and it's actually not right and has to stop. I'm taking steps to stop my friends from saying these sorts of things and I hope other gays will too.
On July 13 2011 01:07 MozzarellaL wrote: So according to your logic, calling a bunch of unsavory white individuals 'niggers' is perfectly acceptable?
That's not at all what I said, but if someone wants to do that - it's inaccurate but it's their prerogative. My friends and I jokingly use the phrase, "Yeah, niggers!" when something is going well all the time. We have no black friends, and none of our friends care, because they're not overly sensitive. It's an inside joke stemming from a recent trip to Vegas, and it's hilarious IMO.
I'm putting in my vote on shunning and blocking communication (if they're harassing me). Personally I don't hang out with people who use discriminatory language irl and I don't like it online either. There are enough people with good taste on SC that you don't have to play with assholes.
On July 13 2011 20:09 jarrydesque wrote: And the funniest is all these people going "But it's not offensive!!!". Thats because you're not gay, black or Jewish. I'm gay and I find it very offensive that my sexuality is referred to whenever a halfwit wants to say something is bad/undesirable. Saying these things was born from discrimination and even through they now (mostly) no longer represent their former meaning they still point back to an "offending" minority, single it out and compare it with something bad. It's is STILL discrimination.
I find it hilarious that you can see that the word "gay" in this context doesn't refer to homosexuals or anything to do with homosexuals, but you're still offended by it. Gay's former meaning was "homosexual". It was also "happy" before that. It just has MORE meanings now. Many words have multiple meanings. I guess this requires some ability of the reader to determine in which context it is being used, but really... You're being gay with all this offensive talk! (READ: You're being a retard! And why is it less offensive to use a derogatory term for the mentally handicapped?)
Watch some Penn and Teller.
If we're too worried about "offending" people we end up with terms like "African American". If you look at the composition of the term it seems to indicate that these citizens aren't fully American citizens? (lol). But these black people aren't African at all. They have no idea what's going on in Africa and the majority of them have no African relatives... Why is it offensive to call someone black?! They are black. Imagine "German American" was used instead of white... No person of German descent (multiple generations ago) would take offense at being called white. By the same logic of "African American", most of the white people in the US should be called "English Americans" lul. So, so silly. And don't point to the past history of discrimination as an explanation for this. Black people in SA were living in conditions much worse than the US much more recently and yet they are still called black!
Dunno about other places but it's perfectly acceptable to say 'white person' and 'black person' or even when talking collectively say 'whites' and 'blacks' around here, unless of course you're saying it with malicious intent or something.
On July 13 2011 04:26 jarrydesque wrote: Lol. Half the people in this thread are obviously not concerned about "internet discrimination" as brought up by the OP but are bringing up other very relevant points that the OP brings to light and the other half are people jumping on the bandwagon with things like "butthurt" and "get over it"
If you're going to participate in a serious conversation like an adult, please at least read the post.
Internet Discrimination....Hmmm you want everyone to replace words like gay or nigger with "I don't like how you played", or "you are annoying me" People use these words, cause they are easy, and often get a rise(or desired response out of people[see trolling]).
Please understand that you choose to go on the internet. YOU choose to play Starcraft. AND you can choose to block people.
The internet is not like real life, if it was. I would slap you through your monitor.
Real Life: I can actually bully you. Internet: I cannot actually bully you, IF you choose to just block/avoid me.
Also. Thanks for assuming being an "adult" = agreeing with your point of view.
Sigh. Just... no.
If you READ my post you might notice that I asked everyone to READ posts before they jumped on bandwagons saying how the OP was nonsense.[see post]
You will notice if you READ my post, I said nothing actually supporting the OP. I said that other issues were being brought to light in this thread that are important. But instead people like you who don't READ are missing them completely because you are too busy jumping on the bandwagon flashing your dick around saying things like "It's the internet maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan, grow some balls maaaaaaaaaaaaaan, don't be such a sissy, maaaaaaaaaaaan".
So essentially, you did exactly what I was asking people not to do, and then tried to call me out on a view that I don't share. Now I don't know if you're trolling or simply struggle with reading.
Also thanks for saying dumb, unfounded things at the end of your posts.
I don't see how you find anything here irelevant to your op lol, besides the fact they're mostly oposed to your opinion.
I think it's generally fine for most of the world, but that was just an example of trying to cater to "offenses" and the weird consequences.
I watched some news channel (or maybe documentary) where they interviewed a black lady from the US and she referred to a group of black people in Africa as "African Americans". Fuck I lol'd ^_^
On July 12 2011 12:35 sylverfyre wrote: Freedom of speech isn't freedom to be a douchebag, it's so insulting when people stand on freedom of speech as a platform to defend racism/bigotry or other things that actually are NOT ok to say. Slander, Libel, and Threats are a few.
Honestly it is a non issue at all because you learn to take what anyone says on the internet with a grain of salt. Also i feel that these swear words/sexist racist or homophobic language have no real backbone to them when basicly everyone on the internet seems to use them.
Context and the meaning behind the words used are pretty hard to measure in any situation. Still, I'd say there isn't much you can do to change these people. Enforcing it I don't think will help very much. The Internet is full of people who think it's their mission to speak their whole mind, but sometimes I can't help but think it's only for worse. Not exactly sure how you would deal with this type of thing on the Internet. Forgive me for my small post an lack of depth. Currently on a phone.
Just because i call ppl faggots all the time online or not, doesn't make me an homophobic. Its just a curse word.
This is one of the most ignorant things I've ever heard. You may not be "afraid of gay people", but using the word "faggot" is NOT just a curse word. That is akin to calling someone a "nigger" and saying it's not racist, it's just a curse word.
"Fuck" and "Shit" are curse words.
"Faggot" and "Nigger" are derogatory terms referring to homosexuals and black people, respectively. IMO using such derogatory terms only displays the intolerance of the user. What is the point of the discrimination?
Just because i call ppl faggots all the time online or not, doesn't make me an homophobic. Its just a curse word.
This is one of the most ignorant things I've ever heard. You may not be "afraid of gay people", but using the word "faggot" is NOT just a curse word. That is akin to calling someone a "nigger" and saying it's not racist, it's just a curse word.
"Fuck" and "Shit" are curse words.
"Faggot" and "Nigger" are derogatory terms referring to homosexuals and black people, respectively. IMO using such derogatory terms only displays the intolerance of the user. What is the point of the discrimination?
at least for the term "nigger" there are varies things of it like nigga that black n just other people in general use. I mean if people don't want to get called that word i am all for it, but they shouldn't expect different treatment when I or a non black person says the N word and then a black person says the same thing.
Also yes i think nigga means hi or something, but still find a different word for that then a word that was used to discriminate. <---not sure
Just because i call ppl faggots all the time online or not, doesn't make me an homophobic. Its just a curse word.
This is one of the most ignorant things I've ever heard. You may not be "afraid of gay people", but using the word "faggot" is NOT just a curse word. That is akin to calling someone a "nigger" and saying it's not racist, it's just a curse word.
"Fuck" and "Shit" are curse words.
"Faggot" and "Nigger" are derogatory terms referring to homosexuals and black people, respectively. IMO using such derogatory terms only displays the intolerance of the user. What is the point of the discrimination?
Wrong, "fag" has it's own meaning nowdays and it's just another way of saying deuche bag basicly, should watch the South Park episode with the Harley fags ;p
At any rate saying faggot and nigger shows nothing of intollerance, in fact it shows how not racist you are since you're saying it to a white guy 80% of the time and you're doing it without having any idea of the sexual orientation, color and so on of the other person.
In fact think there was some gay SC player thread in the comunity section a while back, a gay guy was saying even he calls cheesers fags so ye defo v offensive.
I can pretty much call you a really handsome young man, and if i do it in the right tone you'll be offended, it's all in the mind of the reciever not the words themselves.
The worst part of this generation is the attack on the word "faggot" or "gay." Notice how while "nigger" is still a very bad word there aren't campaigns everywhere hoping to stamp out that word - people have just sort of let it go.
The former words however are somehow worse or deserving of more attention than "nigger." That's bullshit and you know it. I'm willing to bet that if we let the issue of discrimination fall by the wayside gays won't get special treatment and attention anymore, and that is exactly what they want.
CookieMaker: IMO using such derogatory terms only displays the intolerance of the user. What is the point of the discrimination?
The problem is that when people use these words they don't care if someone sees them as intolerant. Being intolerant only matters to someone who cares about that kind of thing. If you don't care then you're invincible. Sticks and stones; names may hurt you, but they don't hurt me, so I win. If someone calls me a "whop" or a "guido" or a "squarehead" or a "Nazi." I don't give a damn. I consider myself to be a more refined Italian than those terms indicate, and a pretty darn good German too. Those terms mean dick all to me; I am none of those things, and I don't care about your opinion one bit.
So, if someone throws a derogatory comment your way, brush it off, know that it's wrong, and be the bigger person.
On July 14 2011 04:11 TheGiz wrote: The worst part of this generation is the attack on the word "faggot" or "gay." Notice how while "nigger" is still a very bad word there aren't campaigns everywhere hoping to stamp out that word - people have just sort of let it go.
The former words however are somehow worse or deserving of more attention than "nigger." That's bullshit and you know it. I'm willing to bet that if we let the issue of discrimination fall by the wayside gays won't get special treatment and attention anymore, and that is exactly what they want.
CookieMaker: IMO using such derogatory terms only displays the intolerance of the user. What is the point of the discrimination?
The problem is that when people use these words they don't care if someone sees them as intolerant. Being intolerant only matters to someone who cares about that kind of thing. If you don't care then you're invincible. Sticks and stones; names may hurt you, but they don't hurt me, so I win. If someone calls me a "whop" or a "guido" or a "squarehead" or a "Nazi." I don't give a damn. I consider myself to be a more refined Italian than those terms indicate, and a pretty darn good German too. Those terms mean dick all to me; I am none of those things, and I don't care about your opinion one bit. So, if someone throws a derogatory comment your way, brush it off, know that it's wrong, and be the bigger person.
While you can probably just do this while on the internet I personally would feel a need to defend myself from someone that called me these names in public.
On July 14 2011 04:11 TheGiz wrote: The worst part of this generation is the attack on the word "faggot" or "gay." Notice how while "nigger" is still a very bad word there aren't campaigns everywhere hoping to stamp out that word - people have just sort of let it go.
The former words however are somehow worse or deserving of more attention than "nigger." That's bullshit and you know it. I'm willing to bet that if we let the issue of discrimination fall by the wayside gays won't get special treatment and attention anymore, and that is exactly what they want.
CookieMaker: IMO using such derogatory terms only displays the intolerance of the user. What is the point of the discrimination?
The problem is that when people use these words they don't care if someone sees them as intolerant. Being intolerant only matters to someone who cares about that kind of thing. If you don't care then you're invincible. Sticks and stones; names may hurt you, but they don't hurt me, so I win. If someone calls me a "whop" or a "guido" or a "squarehead" or a "Nazi." I don't give a damn. I consider myself to be a more refined Italian than those terms indicate, and a pretty darn good German too. Those terms mean dick all to me; I am none of those things, and I don't care about your opinion one bit.
So, if someone throws a derogatory comment your way, brush it off, know that it's wrong, and be the bigger person.
You do realise nigger lost it's weight because of black rappers calling eachother that more then by their names....It's just a word now doesn't really imply any offense unless you feel like taking it as such. Specially since white people use it to talk to eachother sometimes too lol mostly because it reached the point where it implies some coolness.
Reason fag etc are still seen as soooo much worse is because there's been nothing to relieve any tension off them. And since crap like a gay parade exists the vision of the average normal guy towards the gay comunity is....well there's few things lamer, so they take offense, especially if they are themselves the discriminating types.
Just because i call ppl faggots all the time online or not, doesn't make me an homophobic. Its just a curse word.
This is one of the most ignorant things I've ever heard. You may not be "afraid of gay people", but using the word "faggot" is NOT just a curse word. That is akin to calling someone a "nigger" and saying it's not racist, it's just a curse word.
"Fuck" and "Shit" are curse words.
"Faggot" and "Nigger" are derogatory terms referring to homosexuals and black people, respectively. IMO using such derogatory terms only displays the intolerance of the user. What is the point of the discrimination?
You can't just look in the dictionary and tell us what the words mean and that must be the context we are using them in. Young adult vernacular isn't so simplistic..
Louie CK says it best
(thats 2 louie CK videos I've posted in this thread now and both were set up perfectly)
I once confused Quebec with the rest of Canada in front of a french canadian. He got Angry at me . Sometimes what it is perceived as being an asshole, has no bad intent.
On the other side, sometimes because someone was born on the other side of an imaginary line we call a border, he gets flamed to death. Look@the Region unlocking thread.
Let's merge EU and NA but relegate LA and RU for no fucking reason at all. The truth is no one lags because of server location sharing, the language barrier excuse is bollocks (EU has like 15 different languages for fucks sakes) and frankly im sick and tired of this shit.
On July 14 2011 01:40 Lucidity wrote: I think it's generally fine for most of the world, but that was just an example of trying to cater to "offenses" and the weird consequences.
I watched some news channel (or maybe documentary) where they interviewed a black lady from the US and she referred to a group of black people in Africa as "African Americans". Fuck I lol'd ^_^
Hahahaha, I used to work for IBM and our boss was a politically correct New Yorker. In my country the meaning of "black or negro" has a neutral intent. It only has bad intent when you give it to the phrase but he was horrified we called some co-workers with a darker tone of skin Negro when it actually has the same same "value" as calling someone a Dude.
On July 14 2011 05:18 ilovelings wrote: I once confused Quebec with the rest of Canada in front of a french canadian. He got Angry at me . Sometimes what it is perceived as being an asshole, has no bad intent.
Fucking quebecois. You lost, get the hell over it!
I can say that I feel no animosity towards African Americans or Gays, but I'll drop the F or N bomb often enough in SC2 when I feel like it. Trash talking is part of the game and it's not likely to get removed. If you get worked up enough about someone else talking crap to you instead of just shrugging it off that says more about you than him.
On July 14 2011 05:18 ilovelings wrote: I once confused Quebec with the rest of Canada in front of a french canadian. He got Angry at me . Sometimes what it is perceived as being an asshole, has no bad intent.
Fucking quebecois. You lost, get the hell over it!
Why you friggin square-headed beige turtleneck wearing Anglo-Saxon redneck you! I will répondre by the bouche of my Cannons! Sacrebleu!
I do not get personally offended or upset when people call me a nigger or faggot. However, I am of the opinion that the continued and accepted use of such words is generally detrimental to the community and society as a whole.
Words have connotations and some, such as these, carry an especially heavy and demeaning connotation.
Also, there is a good chance that many people who don't feel like these words are a problem have never been victimized themselves. I'm talking about being gay and having someone come up to you and call you a faggot to try to demean you. Even seeing this happen or knowing someone who this happens to could change your opinion on the subject.
Although context certainly plays a role in this discussion, I think people should seriously consider if using racial and sexual-oriented slurs are necessary to convey their ideas.
On July 13 2011 20:09 jarrydesque wrote: And the funniest is all these people going "But it's not offensive!!!". Thats because you're not gay, black or Jewish. I'm gay and I find it very offensive that my sexuality is referred to whenever a halfwit wants to say something is bad/undesirable. Saying these things was born from discrimination and even through they now (mostly) no longer represent their former meaning they still point back to an "offending" minority, single it out and compare it with something bad. It's is STILL discrimination.
I find it hilarious that you can see that the word "gay" in this context doesn't refer to homosexuals or anything to do with homosexuals, but you're still offended by it. Gay's former meaning was "homosexual". It was also "happy" before that. It just has MORE meanings now. Many words have multiple meanings. I guess this requires some ability of the reader to determine in which context it is being used, but really... You're being gay with all this offensive talk! (READ: You're being a retard! And why is it less offensive to use a derogatory term for the mentally handicapped?)
If we're too worried about "offending" people we end up with terms like "African American". If you look at the composition of the term it seems to indicate that these citizens aren't fully American citizens? (lol). But these black people aren't African at all. They have no idea what's going on in Africa and the majority of them have no African relatives... Why is it offensive to call someone black?! They are black. Imagine "German American" was used instead of white... No person of German descent (multiple generations ago) would take offense at being called white. By the same logic of "African American", most of the white people in the US should be called "English Americans" lul. So, so silly. And don't point to the past history of discrimination as an explanation for this. Black people in SA were living in conditions much worse than the US much more recently and yet they are still called black!
Sorry, you're not getting this so I'm going to explain it in a step by step manner using "gay" as the main example.
- I don't care if you call a gay person gay, because they are. - My problem is not with calling people discriminatory names over the internet (yes, I know what trolling is)
My problem is that the word "gay" is being used as an insult in the English language. Let's look at an example.
Friends want to do something. One friend does not.
"Come on, dude, don't be gay."
Does he mean "homosexual"? It could, in this context - he may mean, don't be a pansy or a sissy. But lets say that we know with 100% certainty that, no, he does not. Can you still look at that sentence and honestly say that the use of "gay" is not discriminatory even though it does not directly mean "homosexual"?
Yes, of course it is. The word "gay" (and I'll indulge your little argument here) now has a new meaning of "lame" or something similar.
1 - The word gay is used as a vehicle for this new meaning.
2 - This new meaning is (in the above context) something that is seen as undesirable to be. Why else would he threaten that he may be seen that way if he does not comply? So this new meaning for the word gay is seen as negative.
3 - Even if we IGNORE the above two statements the entire concept of using the word gay as an insult (before the meaning "changed") was born from discrimination, so regardless of the development of the word it is still not acceptable.
4 - Lastly, it's also extremely dependent on perception. You and your friends might have a good understanding of that the "new meaning" of the word gay has but what about when you meet new people? What if you are sitting at a dinner table and you call someone gay and there is a gay person sitting at that table and is not familiar with the "new" use of the word. Do you think they will be offended?
I think I'm allowed to have a problem with it.
I'm not really sure about all the African American talk - you sort of went off on a tangent. There is nothing wrong with calling a black person black... because they are black. It's wrong to use the word "black" as a vehicle of insult, just like I explained above. I'd recommend you reread your posts, I'm not sure you even know where you were going with that one.
Oh and and I think using the word "retard" is bad. I'll even explain why. If I went to a friendly gathering and (while joking) called someone a retard, only to late find out that one of the mothers sitting at the table has a retarded child, I would feel very sheepish. Why? Because I used a word I had no place using as a vehicle for a insult or joke - Even though I did not actually mean mentally disabled.
On July 13 2011 04:26 jarrydesque wrote: Lol. Half the people in this thread are obviously not concerned about "internet discrimination" as brought up by the OP but are bringing up other very relevant points that the OP brings to light and the other half are people jumping on the bandwagon with things like "butthurt" and "get over it"
If you're going to participate in a serious conversation like an adult, please at least read the post.
Internet Discrimination....Hmmm you want everyone to replace words like gay or nigger with "I don't like how you played", or "you are annoying me" People use these words, cause they are easy, and often get a rise(or desired response out of people[see trolling]).
Please understand that you choose to go on the internet. YOU choose to play Starcraft. AND you can choose to block people.
The internet is not like real life, if it was. I would slap you through your monitor.
Real Life: I can actually bully you. Internet: I cannot actually bully you, IF you choose to just block/avoid me.
Also. Thanks for assuming being an "adult" = agreeing with your point of view.
Sigh. Just... no.
If you READ my post you might notice that I asked everyone to READ posts before they jumped on bandwagons saying how the OP was nonsense.[see post]
You will notice if you READ my post, I said nothing actually supporting the OP. I said that other issues were being brought to light in this thread that are important. But instead people like you who don't READ are missing them completely because you are too busy jumping on the bandwagon flashing your dick around saying things like "It's the internet maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan, grow some balls maaaaaaaaaaaaaan, don't be such a sissy, maaaaaaaaaaaan".
So essentially, you did exactly what I was asking people not to do, and then tried to call me out on a view that I don't share. Now I don't know if you're trolling or simply struggle with reading.
Also thanks for saying dumb, unfounded things at the end of your posts.
I don't see how you find anything here irelevant to your op lol, besides the fact they're mostly oposed to your opinion.
I don't know what you're saying boyo, you're going to have to elaborate.
The problem I have is that people think using these words that carry a history of segregating and putting down a group of people is okay.
Yes, you may not know if this person you are playing is black or gay but it doesn't mean that he/she isn't.
Yes, you may know one or more people from a group of people who say the use of that negative word is okay but it isn't for others in that group.
Yes, you can put up a filter but it doesn't mean that something wasn't said to you or that you can't see that a filterable world was used.
I've been struggling with my feelings on this I think because cyberbullying is quite real, even if not actively directed towards a specific person. I played SC1 a lot when I was growing up as a closeted teen with low self-esteem. I hid it, was ashamed by it. Even though I lived in a liberal area (Northern California) and have gay relatives, have good friends, something still happened during high school that led me to consider suicide. When I played SC1, I didn't play against other players that much, instead mostly A.I. or I don't remember if I was just lucky enough to not get called a faggot in-game. I think if I were in that or a worse situation again now (teenager, closeted, bullied, etc.) and was getting that level of negativity and having players say "oh great, we're playing with faggots", I can't say for sure that I would have been as lucky to consider life when I was looking for an exactoknife.
Obviously the burden is hard for Blizzard to regulate, this is just more of my appeal to people that words carry weight and it could be said to someone who is young, impressionable, and feel that he/she has to be ashamed of who he/she is. I feel that when people are young, everything just feels bigger and carries more weight, it's harder to see a future or an exit where things can be better.
On July 12 2011 09:05 sailorferret wrote: My lay person response: Why just because it's the Internet should we not care? Is it different than schools, in malls, or other public places? Put another way- Is because it's the Internet we're allowed to do whatever we want and say whatever we want to others?
Because it's already standard for people to use offensive language on the internet, and if you're that easily offended by it you don't belong here.
On July 12 2011 09:05 sailorferret wrote: My academic response: The more we tolerate things like homophobic discourse the more acceptable it becomes, which lays the foundation for people to use actual violence against people as they take what they learn in online gaming communities into the real world and then act upon that hate. See Judith Butler or Michel Foucault on how normalizing discourses creates a growing impact on communities that ripples out.
First of all, what demographic are you referring to? Is what you're trying to say that the average online gamer will somehow be motivated to "act upon that hate" (which isn't really hate, because when I call my opponent a fag for 6pooling me I don't think he's a homosexual nor am I trying to insult homosexuals in general) just because it's part of their own gaming vocabulary?
On July 12 2011 09:05 sailorferret wrote: The in between response: If it wasn't on the Internet would it be tolerable or would you say something? If you wouldn't say something, I would argue that the belief that using such language against other people is at the root of discriminatory beliefs. Bottom line, why not try to make our community hate-free and open to people of all kinds... even those who take offense (even if not everyone does take offense).
Because it already is, and the people who legitimately believe in the offensive things they say online aren't going to change because of what we do, not to mention they're also in the very strong minority. If you can't accept that it's your problem, gaming culture won't change for you.
I couldn't live with myself if I was offended simply by a word. The meaning behind a word when used seriously, maybe, but not just a word itself. That's effectively what people are doing when they take everything they hear on the internet seriously.
Because it already is, and the people who legitimately believe in the offensive things they say online aren't going to change because of what we do, not to mention they're also in the very strong minority. If you can't accept that it's your problem, gaming culture won't change for you.
The belief that this is how it is so people won't change just because a minority cares strongly is an excuse for not doing anything... not an argument.
Many many many examples in history where people said "it can't be changed," "that's the way it is," "they really are too small of a minority to care about," etc... and the situation changed.
Why is online gaming culture different? Why here is it ok to say because this is how it is it'll never change and we shouldn't even bother? People and communities change. Perhaps it's time for the e-sports world to change to be more inclusive now as well. Or are online gamers so self-centered they only care about themselves to such a degree they won't even try to expand their vocabulary or smack talk to evolve beyond level one homophobic insults? I think we can change. And I know that people do.
You can say that about it when its said in person as well... doesnt make it not discriminatory language. If 30% of people find a problem with it... the numbers aren't insignicant and maybe the other 70% shoul start respecting what the minority players of starcraft would like... an open community where hate speech, racial slurs, etc aren't defended as acceptable.
EPT
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