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Banning halal/kosher butchering - Page 21

Forum Index > General Forum
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Stroggoz
Profile Joined March 2011
New Zealand79 Posts
June 29 2011 02:26 GMT
#401
lol? cutting an animals throat isn't ok, but making an animal grow up inside a tiny cage where they have little room to move their legs is ok.

i dont really give a shit about animal rights but i think this is kinda retarded.
pi_rate_pir_ate
Profile Joined April 2010
United States179 Posts
June 29 2011 02:29 GMT
#402
I fail to see how the 2 are at conflict. I will explain. One culture honors animals by swift death, another by reducing an animal into unconsciousness. To say that either is unconcerned with their animals welfare seems strangely ignorant. Respect is definitely shown within culture and not apart from culture. In both mentioned case studies the animal is killed in such a way that the animal does not consciously experience pain. As to fear, it is a Jewish (middle eastern?) idiom, "like a lamb to the slaughter," expressing the animals lack of fear and awareness.

The word welfare generally implies keeping something healthy and prosperous.

1.
the good fortune, health, happiness, prosperity, etc., of a person, group, or organization; well-being: to look after a child's welfare; the physical or moral welfare of society.
2.
welfare work.
3.
financial or other assistance to an individual or family from a city, state, or national government: Thousands of jobless people in this city would starve if it weren't for welfare.

Since the definition of welfare in the above stated OP says that the law is to minimize pain and fear, and both practices are culturally appropriate ways to accomplish this, it seems likely that the people passing this law have cultural motivation rather than the animals welfare in mind. It is understandable that they would word things in such a way as to make the opposition sound like heartless torturers because this is what politicians do in order to move masses of people to emotional positions that are unassailable through use of logical argumentation.

They are certainly effective. 73% of people voting on TL (to this point) consider this issue to actually revolve around animal welfare. It actually revolves around human opinion about animal welfare, and the deciding factor is not the animal's feelings, but instead the cultural background and ways of expressing the values of the separate human groups.

Part of participating in a global community like TL is learning to both understand and appreciate the ways that other people think and express value. This isn't true on just the global level. It is very true within interpersonal relationships. It is also very true between separate families. Last but not least for all young aspiring daters of women, it is extremely important when interacting with the opposite sex. If you want your GF to value SC2 like Tyler's wife does, and not only that but value you as a SC2 player like Tyler's wife and my own wife do, then you need to learn how to value other people's value system and demonstrate it so that your future spouse and others can learn from your positive example.
Trawlen
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom13 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-29 02:33:25
June 29 2011 02:31 GMT
#403
After reading the first couple of lines i think you should all know, even when the animal is stunned they still cut its throat afterwards. However, the whole stun process is to make sure it doesn't feel it and it is killed as soon as possible after being stunned to make sure it doesn't get any sense of feeling back before it is dead.

They wait for the animal to bleed out, and to some people who watch on TV it looks like they are mistreating it because it squeals and moves after its throat has been cut but this is just simply its muscles reacting to the shock and lungs expelling any excess air after death.

So to sum up, standard animal slaughter works because of the stun. Without it, animals would suffer and feel the pain of their throats being cut.
Religious slaughter takes out all thoughts for animal welfare, put them to the side and put their "religious" beliefs before it. If you ask me, this should be illegal. Just a thought but couldnt this be used for illegal purposes to produce cheap meat?

Also for the poster above me the two processes are exactly the same except one doesn't include the process of stunning 30 seconds before it dies to remove any kind of pain it might suffer. From the second the paddles are put to the side of the animals head, they can't feel a thing. Then 30 seconds later their main arteries are cut to make sure it bleeds out as fast as possible.
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
June 29 2011 02:31 GMT
#404
On June 29 2011 11:00 isM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 29 2011 10:53 Whitewing wrote:
The religions have no good reason to follow through on this, other than "lol tradition and religion." Animals not being tormented as they are being slaughtered is so far ahead of religious traditions in my book on the priority list that it's not even funny.

Screw the religious traditions.

Isn't the intolerance for others view's the same reason you guys dislike religion? This comes off as hypocritical to me, Halal/Kosher butchering is designed to virtually eliminate suffering from the animal. I cannot understand why people believe its okay to insert morals from only one side of an issue.


No, the major reason most people dislike religion is that it's idiotic, poisonous, has no logical reason for it whatsoever, and it gets in the way of human development and progress.


Religion for most is just a guide to a fulfilled life. Yes some people take it to extremes but you take anything to extremes and you are equally idiotic, poisonous and illogical. You cannot assume the views of a select few are matched by the masses either or you are no better than what you are trying to fight against.


No, what I mean is, all religion, regardless of how extreme or inoffensive it might be, is idiotic. It's dumb to believe in something and base real life decisions on that belief when there is absolutely zero evidence to support that belief.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
Mallard86
Profile Joined May 2011
186 Posts
June 29 2011 02:46 GMT
#405
Those who practice these traditions will probably just import the properly slaughtered meat from another country.
KhaosKreator
Profile Joined April 2009
Canada145 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-29 02:50:18
June 29 2011 02:49 GMT
#406
On June 29 2011 11:31 Whitewing wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 29 2011 11:00 isM wrote:
On June 29 2011 10:53 Whitewing wrote:
The religions have no good reason to follow through on this, other than "lol tradition and religion." Animals not being tormented as they are being slaughtered is so far ahead of religious traditions in my book on the priority list that it's not even funny.

Screw the religious traditions.

Isn't the intolerance for others view's the same reason you guys dislike religion? This comes off as hypocritical to me, Halal/Kosher butchering is designed to virtually eliminate suffering from the animal. I cannot understand why people believe its okay to insert morals from only one side of an issue.


No, the major reason most people dislike religion is that it's idiotic, poisonous, has no logical reason for it whatsoever, and it gets in the way of human development and progress.


Religion for most is just a guide to a fulfilled life. Yes some people take it to extremes but you take anything to extremes and you are equally idiotic, poisonous and illogical. You cannot assume the views of a select few are matched by the masses either or you are no better than what you are trying to fight against.


No, what I mean is, all religion, regardless of how extreme or inoffensive it might be, is idiotic. It's dumb to believe in something and base real life decisions on that belief when there is absolutely zero evidence to support that belief.

You have zero reason to believe that living is "more good" than not living, and yet here you stand. Think of all the damage you're causing to the environment by existing! All that coal and oil you consume, and the trees you cut down to build your home, and the land you occupy that could be occupied by anything else. Unless, you don't value nature over yourself, of course. But you have no reason to value anything over anything else, so why would you?

What idiots indeed, having values that are consistent with their belief system.
Kyrie, Ignis Divine, Eleison
KhaosKreator
Profile Joined April 2009
Canada145 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-29 02:55:16
June 29 2011 02:54 GMT
#407
As for animals, I don't think how an imprisoned person dies determines whether or not they are treated humanely. I think it depends on how they lived. Firing squads and hangings are bad, but not as horrible as the prison system they used back then. Thankfully, we have improved upon that.

So if halal or kosher meat manufacturers treat their animals with an ounce more respect during the raising of the animals (like allowing them to walk outside and graze) then I would think that they are better than the horrible system we have for animal treatment.
Kyrie, Ignis Divine, Eleison
Nothingtosay
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States875 Posts
June 29 2011 02:55 GMT
#408
On June 29 2011 11:49 KhaosKreator wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 29 2011 11:31 Whitewing wrote:
On June 29 2011 11:00 isM wrote:
On June 29 2011 10:53 Whitewing wrote:
The religions have no good reason to follow through on this, other than "lol tradition and religion." Animals not being tormented as they are being slaughtered is so far ahead of religious traditions in my book on the priority list that it's not even funny.

Screw the religious traditions.

Isn't the intolerance for others view's the same reason you guys dislike religion? This comes off as hypocritical to me, Halal/Kosher butchering is designed to virtually eliminate suffering from the animal. I cannot understand why people believe its okay to insert morals from only one side of an issue.


No, the major reason most people dislike religion is that it's idiotic, poisonous, has no logical reason for it whatsoever, and it gets in the way of human development and progress.


Religion for most is just a guide to a fulfilled life. Yes some people take it to extremes but you take anything to extremes and you are equally idiotic, poisonous and illogical. You cannot assume the views of a select few are matched by the masses either or you are no better than what you are trying to fight against.


No, what I mean is, all religion, regardless of how extreme or inoffensive it might be, is idiotic. It's dumb to believe in something and base real life decisions on that belief when there is absolutely zero evidence to support that belief.

You have zero reason to believe that living is "more good" than not living, and yet here you stand. Think of all the damage you're causing to the environment by existing! All that coal and oil you consume, and the trees you cut down to build your home, and the land you occupy that could be occupied by anything else. Unless, you don't value nature over yourself, of course. But you have no reason to value anything over anything else, so why would you?

What idiots indeed, having values that are consistent with their belief system.

Are you serious? no reason to think that being alive is better than being dead? As far as science goes being dead = game over and I don't think the vast majority of people want that.
[QUOTE][B]On October 16 2011 13:00 Anihc wrote:[/B] No, you're the one who's wrong. Nothingtosay got it right.[/QUOTE]:3
blah_blah
Profile Joined April 2011
346 Posts
June 29 2011 02:55 GMT
#409
On June 29 2011 11:49 KhaosKreator wrote:You have zero reason to believe that living is "more good" than not living, and yet here you stand. Think of all the damage you're causing to the environment by existing! All that coal and oil you consume, and the trees you cut down to build your home, and the land you occupy that could be occupied by anything else. Unless, you don't value nature over yourself, of course. But you have no reason to value anything over anything else, so why would you?

What idiots indeed, having values that are consistent with their belief system.


If you believe that there is no possible meaning to life outside of religion, this says far more about you than it does about atheism.
Olinim
Profile Joined March 2011
4044 Posts
June 29 2011 02:57 GMT
#410
On June 29 2011 11:49 KhaosKreator wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 29 2011 11:31 Whitewing wrote:
On June 29 2011 11:00 isM wrote:
On June 29 2011 10:53 Whitewing wrote:
The religions have no good reason to follow through on this, other than "lol tradition and religion." Animals not being tormented as they are being slaughtered is so far ahead of religious traditions in my book on the priority list that it's not even funny.

Screw the religious traditions.

Isn't the intolerance for others view's the same reason you guys dislike religion? This comes off as hypocritical to me, Halal/Kosher butchering is designed to virtually eliminate suffering from the animal. I cannot understand why people believe its okay to insert morals from only one side of an issue.


No, the major reason most people dislike religion is that it's idiotic, poisonous, has no logical reason for it whatsoever, and it gets in the way of human development and progress.


Religion for most is just a guide to a fulfilled life. Yes some people take it to extremes but you take anything to extremes and you are equally idiotic, poisonous and illogical. You cannot assume the views of a select few are matched by the masses either or you are no better than what you are trying to fight against.


No, what I mean is, all religion, regardless of how extreme or inoffensive it might be, is idiotic. It's dumb to believe in something and base real life decisions on that belief when there is absolutely zero evidence to support that belief.

You have zero reason to believe that living is "more good" than not living, and yet here you stand. Think of all the damage you're causing to the environment by existing! All that coal and oil you consume, and the trees you cut down to build your home, and the land you occupy that could be occupied by anything else. Unless, you don't value nature over yourself, of course. But you have no reason to value anything over anything else, so why would you?

What idiots indeed, having values that are consistent with their belief system.

...What?
KhaosKreator
Profile Joined April 2009
Canada145 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-29 02:58:57
June 29 2011 02:58 GMT
#411
On June 29 2011 11:55 Nothingtosay wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 29 2011 11:49 KhaosKreator wrote:
On June 29 2011 11:31 Whitewing wrote:
On June 29 2011 11:00 isM wrote:
On June 29 2011 10:53 Whitewing wrote:
The religions have no good reason to follow through on this, other than "lol tradition and religion." Animals not being tormented as they are being slaughtered is so far ahead of religious traditions in my book on the priority list that it's not even funny.

Screw the religious traditions.

Isn't the intolerance for others view's the same reason you guys dislike religion? This comes off as hypocritical to me, Halal/Kosher butchering is designed to virtually eliminate suffering from the animal. I cannot understand why people believe its okay to insert morals from only one side of an issue.


No, the major reason most people dislike religion is that it's idiotic, poisonous, has no logical reason for it whatsoever, and it gets in the way of human development and progress.


Religion for most is just a guide to a fulfilled life. Yes some people take it to extremes but you take anything to extremes and you are equally idiotic, poisonous and illogical. You cannot assume the views of a select few are matched by the masses either or you are no better than what you are trying to fight against.


No, what I mean is, all religion, regardless of how extreme or inoffensive it might be, is idiotic. It's dumb to believe in something and base real life decisions on that belief when there is absolutely zero evidence to support that belief.

You have zero reason to believe that living is "more good" than not living, and yet here you stand. Think of all the damage you're causing to the environment by existing! All that coal and oil you consume, and the trees you cut down to build your home, and the land you occupy that could be occupied by anything else. Unless, you don't value nature over yourself, of course. But you have no reason to value anything over anything else, so why would you?

What idiots indeed, having values that are consistent with their belief system.

Are you serious? no reason to think that being alive is better than being dead? As far as science goes being dead = game over and I don't think the vast majority of people want that.

It's true that people don't want that! But science unfortunately doesn't care either way.

My point is that you can't apply "logic and science" to basic things like values. Your values have no logical basis. They wouldn't be values then, they would be facts.
Kyrie, Ignis Divine, Eleison
blah_blah
Profile Joined April 2011
346 Posts
June 29 2011 03:00 GMT
#412
On June 29 2011 11:58 KhaosKreator wrote:My point is that you can't apply "logic and science" to basic things like values. Your values have no logical basis. They wouldn't be values then, they would be facts.


You're just embarassing yourself now.
KhaosKreator
Profile Joined April 2009
Canada145 Posts
June 29 2011 03:01 GMT
#413
Fact: Given that you value life, it is good to eat things to extend your life.
Fact: Given that you don't value life, eating is not a required action.
Not Fact: People should value life.

Anyway, this is all off topic. I apologize for talking about values and beliefs, I was just upset by the offensive and moronic statements made by that previous poster.
Kyrie, Ignis Divine, Eleison
hoor3x
Profile Joined September 2010
United States100 Posts
June 29 2011 03:03 GMT
#414
fuck animals

User was temp banned for this post.
Nothingtosay
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States875 Posts
June 29 2011 03:04 GMT
#415
On June 29 2011 11:58 KhaosKreator wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 29 2011 11:55 Nothingtosay wrote:
On June 29 2011 11:49 KhaosKreator wrote:
On June 29 2011 11:31 Whitewing wrote:
On June 29 2011 11:00 isM wrote:
On June 29 2011 10:53 Whitewing wrote:
The religions have no good reason to follow through on this, other than "lol tradition and religion." Animals not being tormented as they are being slaughtered is so far ahead of religious traditions in my book on the priority list that it's not even funny.

Screw the religious traditions.

Isn't the intolerance for others view's the same reason you guys dislike religion? This comes off as hypocritical to me, Halal/Kosher butchering is designed to virtually eliminate suffering from the animal. I cannot understand why people believe its okay to insert morals from only one side of an issue.


No, the major reason most people dislike religion is that it's idiotic, poisonous, has no logical reason for it whatsoever, and it gets in the way of human development and progress.


Religion for most is just a guide to a fulfilled life. Yes some people take it to extremes but you take anything to extremes and you are equally idiotic, poisonous and illogical. You cannot assume the views of a select few are matched by the masses either or you are no better than what you are trying to fight against.


No, what I mean is, all religion, regardless of how extreme or inoffensive it might be, is idiotic. It's dumb to believe in something and base real life decisions on that belief when there is absolutely zero evidence to support that belief.

You have zero reason to believe that living is "more good" than not living, and yet here you stand. Think of all the damage you're causing to the environment by existing! All that coal and oil you consume, and the trees you cut down to build your home, and the land you occupy that could be occupied by anything else. Unless, you don't value nature over yourself, of course. But you have no reason to value anything over anything else, so why would you?

What idiots indeed, having values that are consistent with their belief system.

Are you serious? no reason to think that being alive is better than being dead? As far as science goes being dead = game over and I don't think the vast majority of people want that.

It's true that people don't want that! But science unfortunately doesn't care either way.

My point is that you can't apply "logic and science" to basic things like values. Your values have no logical basis. They wouldn't be values then, they would be facts.


I apply logic and science in my values all the time it helps me out when things like emotion get in the way.
[QUOTE][B]On October 16 2011 13:00 Anihc wrote:[/B] No, you're the one who's wrong. Nothingtosay got it right.[/QUOTE]:3
Aurocaido
Profile Joined December 2009
Canada288 Posts
June 29 2011 03:06 GMT
#416
On June 29 2011 12:03 hoor3x wrote:
fuck animals

fuck your face

User was warned for this post
KhaosKreator
Profile Joined April 2009
Canada145 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-29 03:13:34
June 29 2011 03:11 GMT
#417
On June 29 2011 12:03 hoor3x wrote:
fuck animals

my honest-to-god actual opinion: i think animals are just super complicated computers, so in reality i don't care either way.

fuck animals

On June 29 2011 12:03 NothingToSay wrote:I apply logic and science in my values all the time it helps me out when things like emotion get in the way.

Check your PM's, and likewise anyone here can PM me if they want to call me dumb so we don't clutter up the thread.
Kyrie, Ignis Divine, Eleison
2l84that
Profile Joined November 2010
Turkey35 Posts
June 29 2011 03:12 GMT
#418
Can't speak up for Jewish people there, but in Turkey we do stun animals (or at least allowed to stun animals, some prefer not to which I find quite stupid) before we kill them for religious purposes, can't see why Muslim people there would actually create a problem out of this.
Olinim
Profile Joined March 2011
4044 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-29 03:13:48
June 29 2011 03:12 GMT
#419
Is it just me or has nothing KhaosKreator said made an ounce of sense?
Chibithor
Profile Joined April 2011
Brazil514 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-29 03:13:52
June 29 2011 03:12 GMT
#420
Religious beliefs and traditions should be considered irrelevant in a discussion like this. It's the law, and religion is no excuse for any exceptions to it.


On June 29 2011 12:11 KhaosKreator wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 29 2011 12:03 hoor3x wrote:
fuck animals

my honest-to-god actual opinion: i think animals are just super complicated computers, so in reality i don't care either way.

fuck animals

I think humans are even more complicated computers, so I guess I one-upped you there.
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