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On June 22 2011 21:59 snailz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 04:39 Carras wrote:On June 22 2011 04:37 Skilledblob wrote:On June 22 2011 04:35 Pawsom wrote:On June 22 2011 04:34 Carras wrote:
Only in America. Well yeah, everywhere else provides proper health care  at least every other first world country many "third" world countries do too.. if he had enough money to travel , he should just gone to cuba and got great health care.. also here in Argentina croatia is hardly "first world country", and has free health care. we're talking about a country that was in a huge war 10 years ago. lol@usa
I Am amazed at all these posts saying we have free healthcare lol at u USA, yet a lot of people from those countries with any kind of money refuse to take advatage of that fantastic free healthcare system and go to USA whenever they need any serious medcial procedure done.
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This is pretty sad x.x Tbh, it's things like this that really depress me. The fact that someone was forced to do this to get healthcare... jez.
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On June 22 2011 22:14 kukarachaa wrote:
I Am amazed at all these posts saying we have free healthcare lol at u USA, yet a lot of people from those countries with any kind of money refuse to take advatage of that fantastic free healthcare system and go to USA whenever they need any serious medcial procedure done.
That a small group of people with the financial freedom choose to go to the US, Thailand, Switzerland or wherever to get medical treatment from expensive experts is not really the issue here.
The important thing is that when you give the whole population a baseline security of common health care as a right, you inject a lot of productivity into your workforce that benefits society as a whole.
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On June 22 2011 22:14 kukarachaa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 21:59 snailz wrote:On June 22 2011 04:39 Carras wrote:On June 22 2011 04:37 Skilledblob wrote:On June 22 2011 04:35 Pawsom wrote:On June 22 2011 04:34 Carras wrote:
Only in America. Well yeah, everywhere else provides proper health care at least every other first world country many "third" world countries do too.. if he had enough money to travel , he should just gone to cuba and got great health care.. also here in Argentina croatia is hardly "first world country", and has free health care. we're talking about a country that was in a huge war 10 years ago. lol@usa I Am amazed at all these posts saying we have free healthcare lol at u USA, yet a lot of people from those countries with any kind of money refuse to take advatage of that fantastic free healthcare system and go to USA whenever they need any serious medcial procedure done.
That's because doctors earn shit here (my father who is considered to be one of the best, if not the best, specialist in laparoscopic surgery in the country earns about 4 times the minimum wage so go figure) and all the good surgeons/specialists go to USA just because you pay them ridiculous amounts of money (the same could be said about certain scientists too).
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The important thing is that when you give the whole population a baseline security of common health care as a right, you inject a lot of productivity into your workforce that benefits society as a whole.
Really? I thought telling someone, "if you don't have a job you don't get insurance" was a better way of injecting productivity into a society than telling them no matter what they do they are covered.
That's because doctors earn shit here (my father who is considered to be one of the best, if not the best, specialist in laparoscopic surgery in the country earns about the same as average programmer/graphic designer without a degree so go figure) and all the good surgeons/specialists go to USA just because you pay them ridiculous amounts of money (the same could be said about certain scientists too).
Looking at the amount of debt they rack up as well as the insane hours they work I find it hard to classify them as getting ridiculous amounts of money.
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Example:
Joe earns $10 a year. Bill only earns $1 a year. Insurance costs $1 a year and it will cover as many as possible, but only one at a time.
Clearly, Bill cannot pay for insurance because he got other expenses aswell.
But if Joe pays $0.9 and Bill pays $0.1 they can both use the health care system. Joe's costs are even reduced, because if he'd pay all by himself, it would have cost him $1 and it is unlikely that both of them need to use the system at the same time.
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On June 22 2011 22:14 kukarachaa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 21:59 snailz wrote:On June 22 2011 04:39 Carras wrote:On June 22 2011 04:37 Skilledblob wrote:On June 22 2011 04:35 Pawsom wrote:On June 22 2011 04:34 Carras wrote:
Only in America. Well yeah, everywhere else provides proper health care at least every other first world country many "third" world countries do too.. if he had enough money to travel , he should just gone to cuba and got great health care.. also here in Argentina croatia is hardly "first world country", and has free health care. we're talking about a country that was in a huge war 10 years ago. lol@usa I Am amazed at all these posts saying we have free healthcare lol at u USA, yet a lot of people from those countries with any kind of money refuse to take advatage of that fantastic free healthcare system and go to USA whenever they need any serious medcial procedure done.
the subject is so simple (us healtcare is fucked up, period) that i didnt even feel the need to make a serious comment about it. i apologize.
however, ive read about it many times on forums because i couldnt belive that country such as US can have such medieval way of dealing with something that should be everyone's right and not a privilage. (most of the discussions were just that, free healt care right or privilage)
so, as always, i get amazed that there are actually people from united states that defend the current system. i would never go so far as some in this thread and say "i hope your children get cancer and u get in a situation where u can not pay the bills so u can see what are we talking about", but i am shocked that some people in states dont have enough human in them to see that life is above all else and that taking care of sick population in any country should and always will be a first priority, for any goverment. stating that "its not your fault they didnt work to get the needed money" or "its like paying for fixing someone elses broken car" is just... wrong. on so many levels. wrong.
and to reply to the quote, no, even if u get really complicated diseases that require very unique specialists, u go to germany, england, austria and similiar countries from europe. but then again, we're talking about common illnesses, cancers, and other mean stuff, which belive it or not can be treated even in the "third world countries". also, what he said:
On June 22 2011 22:20 Manit0u wrote:
That's because doctors earn shit here (my father who is considered to be one of the best, if not the best, specialist in laparoscopic surgery in the country earns about 4 times the minimum wage so go figure) and all the good surgeons/specialists go to USA just because you pay them ridiculous amounts of money (the same could be said about certain scientists too).
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On June 22 2011 22:24 spacecoke wrote:
Example:
Joe earns $10 a year. Bill only earns $1 a year. Insurance costs $1 a year and it will cover as many as possible, but only one at a time.
Clearly, Bill cannot pay for insurance because he got other expenses aswell.
But if Joe pays $0.9 and Bill pays $0.1 they can both use the health care system. Joe's costs are even reduced, because if he'd pay all by himself, it would have cost him $1 and it is unlikely that both of them need to use the system at the same time.
What. Your example means Joe is now paying $1.9.
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On June 22 2011 22:22 StrangrDangr wrote:Show nested quote +That's because doctors earn shit here (my father who is considered to be one of the best, if not the best, specialist in laparoscopic surgery in the country earns about the same as average programmer/graphic designer without a degree so go figure) and all the good surgeons/specialists go to USA just because you pay them ridiculous amounts of money (the same could be said about certain scientists too). Looking at the amount of debt they rack up as well as the insane hours they work I find it hard to classify them as getting ridiculous amounts of money.
The US doctors rack up debt due to college etc. In Poland higher education is free for the most part (at least our best universities are free) so you can become a doctor here, free of any debt, and move to US where they're going to pay you a lot.
EDIT: The only thing my dad regrets is that he didn't work for the army as a doctor like all his friends. 15 years until retirement with officer pension and can still work at a regular hospital or start private practice? Win.
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On June 22 2011 22:27 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 22:22 StrangrDangr wrote:That's because doctors earn shit here (my father who is considered to be one of the best, if not the best, specialist in laparoscopic surgery in the country earns about the same as average programmer/graphic designer without a degree so go figure) and all the good surgeons/specialists go to USA just because you pay them ridiculous amounts of money (the same could be said about certain scientists too). Looking at the amount of debt they rack up as well as the insane hours they work I find it hard to classify them as getting ridiculous amounts of money. The US doctors rack up debt due to college etc. In Poland higher education is free for the most part (at least our best universities are free) so you can become a doctor here, free of any debt, and move to US where they're going to pay you a lot.
Even discounting debt, the workload itself more than qualifies doctors to make a decent wage. Of course as they get so few das off and work such long shifts most never get a chance to enjoy their money anyways.
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On June 22 2011 22:22 StrangrDangr wrote:Show nested quote +The important thing is that when you give the whole population a baseline security of common health care as a right, you inject a lot of productivity into your workforce that benefits society as a whole.
Really? I thought telling someone, "if you don't have a job you don't get insurance" was a better way of injecting productivity into a society than telling them no matter what they do they are covered.
This doesn't work quite so well in an economy where >10% of the population is looking for full-time work with benefits but is stuck with temp work, part time work or nothing. The US isn't big on labor rights, the employers hold most of the power, especially in the current economic climate.
It's also restrictive on the economy. Traditional career paths are the main source of security via health insurance. For people whose strengths lie in non-traditional work like freelancing, the system is archaic. It also punishes people for making career switches - even jobs that do provide affordable insurance typically have a 3-6 month probation period, so if you have an accident or major health issue during that time, tough shit. Maybe you should've stayed at your old job, working to half your potential.
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I can see little to no reason to at least have free public healthcare for citizens under 21.
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A EU style universal health care system could work in the US. The problem is that it would require a HUGE amount of reform. They precident that gets the nessesary reforms through needs to have planetsized titanium balls cause he will be labled the anti-christ and he will never EVER get reelected to anything ever again.
Most career polititians make way to much money to take the risk.
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On June 22 2011 22:22 StrangrDangr wrote:Show nested quote +The important thing is that when you give the whole population a baseline security of common health care as a right, you inject a lot of productivity into your workforce that benefits society as a whole.
Really? I thought telling someone, "if you don't have a job you don't get insurance" was a better way of injecting productivity into a society than telling them no matter what they do they are covered. Show nested quote +That's because doctors earn shit here (my father who is considered to be one of the best, if not the best, specialist in laparoscopic surgery in the country earns about the same as average programmer/graphic designer without a degree so go figure) and all the good surgeons/specialists go to USA just because you pay them ridiculous amounts of money (the same could be said about certain scientists too). Looking at the amount of debt they rack up as well as the insane hours they work I find it hard to classify them as getting ridiculous amounts of money.
By introducing basic safety you increase productivity, because you prevent a big number of people from going through personal bankruptcy or living in debt and that keeps them more productive members of the society.
It also allows a person to pick better suited job, as insurance quality is not part of the equation, thus simplifying it.
The mechanism you describe also does not work well enough for many people, because they are not motivated by events they think will not happen to them. They care about the disease only after they have it.
Also what debt do they rack up ?
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283 Posts
Coming from a family of doctors and seeking to become one myself, I wish to clear something up. In the US, though doctors make a lot of money, they don't do it for the money. Between the amount of time (~11 years minimum) it takes to become a doctor (4 years for college, 4 years for med school, 3-4 years residency, and that's not including a fellowship which you need in order to specialize), the rigorous schooling, the costs of college and medical school, bad hours, and the fact that you still have to go to seminars and training every year to keep up, all the people who are doing it "for the money" get weeded out. If you really want to make money you'd be far far better off going into something like business or law, where you can have a relatively structured work schedule and still make tons of money. I want to become a doctor because growing up around that sort of thing has made me interested in it and I enjoy helping people that need help.
Edit: The debt that doctors rack up is from the costs of college and medical school. Even coming from an upper-middle class family where money was saved starting at my birth for my college education, I know that I'm going to have to pay for medical school myself.
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I believe the average is close to around $200k for graduating doctors, followed by a few years as a resident making next to nothing while still working 110+ hours a week, it is a while before that debt can even begun to be paid off.
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On June 22 2011 23:09 kef wrote:
Coming from a family of doctors and seeking to become one myself, I wish to clear something up. In the US, though doctors make a lot of money, they don't do it for the money. Between the amount of time (~11 years minimum) it takes to become a doctor (4 years for college, 4 years for med school, 3-4 years residency, and that's not including a fellowship which you need in order to specialize), the rigorous schooling, the costs of college and medical school, bad hours, and the fact that you still have to go to seminars and training every year to keep up, all the people who are doing it "for the money" get weeded out. If you really want to make money you'd be far far better off going into something like business or law, where you can have a relatively structured work schedule and still make tons of money. I want to become a doctor because growing up around that sort of thing has made me interested in it and I enjoy helping people that need help.
Edit: The debt that doctors rack up is from the costs of college and medical school. Even coming from an upper-middle class family where money was saved starting at my birth for my college education, I know that I'm going to have to pay for medical school myself.
I got it later that the debt is probably because of cost of education in US, well concerning Polish, Czech, ... doctors moving west for money, they got their education basically for free.
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Wow.. I guess the only people defending US healthcare are those who can afford to pay for it.
You try living without one and end up with some illness and risk to lose everything when you need to see a doctor.
I've read stories about people having to sell their homes because they where in a car accident and needed further treatment. Same story goes for the poor fellas with cancer.
The most amusing fact is that the US in general tend to preach about freedom and equal living conditions for the people everywhere, I guess US is an exception of that.
Even the wounded civilians in Afghanistan gets free medical care by US doctors.
I really don't see how anyone can support this with a clean conscience.
EDIT: Doctors should make tons of money, because when we need it, our life depends on it. However, that shouldn't be on the patients shoulders, in my opinion the government should pay instead of spending a fuckton on warfare.
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Glad so many people can see the flaws eith the states, I wonder how many Americans do though, I believe this is the biggest problem. They just don't.
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On June 22 2011 23:37 MERLIN. wrote:
Glad so many people can see the flaws eith the states, I wonder how many Americans do though, I believe this is the biggest problem. They just don't.
No, they are busy fighting for human rights everywhere else but at home.
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EPT
