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Man Robs Bank to get Healthcare. - Page 25

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Ghad
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Norway2551 Posts
June 22 2011 14:42 GMT
#481
On June 22 2011 22:39 Harrow wrote:
This doesn't work quite so well in an economy where >10% of the population is looking for full-time work with benefits but is stuck with temp work, part time work or nothing. The US isn't big on labor rights, the employers hold most of the power, especially in the current economic climate.

It's also restrictive on the economy. Traditional career paths are the main source of security via health insurance. For people whose strengths lie in non-traditional work like freelancing, the system is archaic. It also punishes people for making career switches - even jobs that do provide affordable insurance typically have a 3-6 month probation period, so if you have an accident or major health issue during that time, tough shit. Maybe you should've stayed at your old job, working to half your potential.


Thanks, this is exactly the basic thought-work behind how having a social safety net you increase the productivity of the population.

forgottendreams: One underage girl, two drunk guys, one gogo dancer and starcraft 2. Apparently just another day in Europe.
Eufouria
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United Kingdom4425 Posts
June 22 2011 14:43 GMT
#482
On June 22 2011 23:22 Svartstol wrote:
Wow.. I guess the only people defending US healthcare are those who can afford to pay for it.
You try living without one and end up with some illness and risk to lose everything when you need to see a doctor.

I've read stories about people having to sell their homes because they where in a car accident and needed further treatment. Same story goes for the poor fellas with cancer.
The most amusing fact is that the US in general tend to preach about freedom and equal living conditions for the people everywhere, I guess US is an exception of that.

Even the wounded civilians in Afghanistan gets free medical care by US doctors.
I really don't see how anyone can support this with a clean conscience.

EDIT: Doctors should make tons of money, because when we need it, our life depends on it. However, that shouldn't be on the patients shoulders, in my opinion the government should pay instead of spending a fuckton on warfare.

People are selfish. They think because they did some work, and followed the path laid out for them, that anyone can have what they have, and anyone who has no money is stupid/lazy.

I've read before that many people against better social care in exchange for higher taxes, would actually save money, but are against it because it has been drilled into them that the American dream is true and that any socialism is bad. Even if they do lose out I can't believe that other people can be so opposed to earning a bit less money, in exchange from improving the lives of others. The world would be a better place if more people looked at their overall picture, instead of their own life.
RiceMuncher
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia138 Posts
June 22 2011 14:51 GMT
#483
American politics was always hypocritical.
To me, it never made any sense.

I mean. Obama should not be president because of some STUPID BIRTH CERTIFICATE? LOl
carloselcoco
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2302 Posts
June 22 2011 15:02 GMT
#484
On June 22 2011 23:51 RiceMuncher wrote:
American politics was always hypocritical.
To me, it never made any sense.

I mean. Obama should not be president because of some STUPID BIRTH CERTIFICATE? LOl



Following the constitution is not stupid... I actually wish my Colombia did that but we have tons of people over there who simply ignore it and the sad part is that no one does anything to stop them or to protect the constitution. So I love the US because of that.



Anyway, stop going off topic and actually contribute to the thread.



It is sad that this guy had to do this, but it is the true reality of our health care system where you are refused care for having a condition which requires care....
I am so glad that in a few years it will be against the law to refuse health care to anyone here.
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dogabutila
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States1437 Posts
June 22 2011 15:11 GMT
#485
On June 22 2011 15:30 mcc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2011 14:58 dogabutila wrote:
On June 22 2011 10:19 Toadesstern wrote:
On June 22 2011 09:57 dogabutila wrote:
On June 22 2011 09:43 Toadesstern wrote:
On June 22 2011 09:33 Medrea wrote:
Lol what a dolt. Prison healthcare is terrible and they hit up your estate for it when you die.

Other people in thread saying there countries healthcare is free do not pay taxes I know it is stylish in many countries to leach off the system and not pay taxes. In China it is grounds for execution. In the US they hit up your estate for it after you die. But US pays there taxes nonetheless.

This dumbass is dreaming if he thinks he is gonna get a coast property on a fixed income.

So why is government healthcare such a rip off? Same people who eat grease off the carpet pay the same rates as young people who do not even need healthcare. Just because a cost is labeled "taxes" doesnt mean its free.

Do people in other countries really think there healthcare comes out of the goodness of the medical communities hearts?


nah people in other countries think it's "fair" to let everyone pay taxes, instead of just one human beeing paying a shitload of money because he got unlucky in some kind of accident he could not have affected and therefore having debts for the rest of his (ruined) life.


See I hear this argument a lot but it's not really realistic either. How many people get randomly unlucky? vs how many people choose to believe that they are unlucky?

Most medical issues are not random, and are generally a combination of lifestyle and genetic factors. All of these are predictable. People should educate themselves and assess their own risk.


That's exactly my point. There's an EXTREMLY low amount of people who get unlucky, like REALY EXTREMLY low. But those are fucked for the rest of their lifes for no other reason than beeing unlucky.
I'm not talking about a cough or something like that. We got to pay 10€ everytime we go to a doctor in germany. Noone cares about that.
But one might care about some serious problems, that are that rare and more importantly costly, that a single person might not be able to pay for it.

I don't know what the numbers for stuff like cancer or genetic illnesses are (really don't know what it's called in english sry, guess it's clear what I'm talking about?). Let's say one out a thousand gets cancer or something like that, just for the purpose of numbers. Do you think it's fair that the guy has to pay for the treatment himself (aprox: shittons of money) and 999 people who got lucky, because they don't have cancer don't have to pay? not even a single cent?
If you think that's fair I'm glad I'm not living in the us.

Of course there's things like alcoholics who got an increased chance to need a new liver someday and therefore you could probably say it's their own fault but still, as long as we're able to help I think we should do, no matter what.


Yes. I think that it is entirely fair that people should take care of their own personal problems. I would not think it is fair if my neighbor gets a flat tire because he was driving over glass and I have to buy him a new tire.

Do you think it is fair to force other people to pay for the problems of others? Heres a thought, give away your money to all your co-workers. I'm sure they have problems that you do not have. It's not fair that you have money to spend while they have important issues and bills to take care of.

Are you just comparing not having a working car with dying ? You not having a working car does not pose really any moral problem for the society. Society letting you die unnecessarily because you have no money on the other hand is a moral dilemma for normal humans.
And yes I think sometimes it is fair to force other people to pay for the problems of others. Depends on the details, as always.

Show nested quote +
On June 22 2011 14:58 dogabutila wrote:
On June 22 2011 13:05 mcc wrote:
On June 22 2011 12:24 cyanide66 wrote:
why should i have to pay for someone else's health care?

Well in well designed public healthcare system you are not paying for other people's health care anymore than you do when you pay insurance to your insurance company. You are basically paying insurance, the difference is you cannot choose different provider and you are forced to insure yourself. And of course the amount you pay is calculated kind of strangely for an insurance


And if you decide that you do not want to pay insurance the men with guns kick in your door and take it from you. Awesome huh? And you are paying for others health care as long as you are not sick.

I have nothing against law enforcement. So yes, awesome.
Did you actually read what I wrote ? Yes you are paying for the healthcare of others as far as having insurance is paying healthcare for others. The mandatory nature of that insurance does not change that fact. In private insurance case if you are healthy and paying insurance, you are also paying healthcare for others.
As for the rest, I have no problem with mandatory health insurance, I find it a good thing, you do not. There are many advantages, and the only disadvantage is loss of so-called "freedom" not to pay. I do not consider it important freedom to begin with so I do not care.

EDIT:typo


Actually, yes. The principal of the issue is the same. There is no "moral" problem for society to deal with. Besides, why are we legislating morality? Should we also require everybody take bible classes and outlaw abortion and teach creationism in school? If you think it fair to force others to pay for the problems of others, where do you draw the line? How do you decide? Or is it only okay to make people pay for others when you are making people richer then you pay for yourself?

Paying for insurance is paying for healthcare for others. Sometimes people don't want or need it. Yes, did you read what I wrote? In real life, people can decide they do not need or want insurance. It's pathetic how people want the government to hand everything to them so they don't have to be responsible for themselves. Everybody would give up all the freedom they had if it only meant they did not have to work. There are really no advantages to a mandatory health insurance plan. None.
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dogabutila
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States1437 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-22 15:20:04
June 22 2011 15:15 GMT
#486
On June 22 2011 15:58 recklessfire wrote:
dude just calling the ambulance in the US costs around 5,000 dollars,what a joke. My friend's mom broke her arm and after calling 911 they got slapped with a 5,000 dollar bill. America's healthcare system is pretty broken atm.


You know why that is? Because you are also paying for the people that use the service and can't pay for it.

"well why not make everybody pay for it?! thats more fair then me needing to pay for other people!"

Obviously because you used the service and I didn't. It would be more fair if everybody who needed the service paid for it and so you didn't have to make up the cost right? It's most fair when people who use the service pay for it, and people who do not use the service do not pay for it.


Why can't we just do that instead? It's like that for EVERY. OTHER. thing in the world.


On June 22 2011 18:18 BordZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2011 18:12 Ocedic wrote:
On June 22 2011 17:35 snotboogie wrote:
On June 22 2011 16:08 Geolich wrote:
what a joke of a country america is

i cannot fathom how people can be so heartless to say 'well its his problem, why should i pay for it'

what sort of attitude is this? i mean some idiot earlier compared this to paying for his neighbours tire when it goes flat after driving over glass. are you fucking serious?

give me my tax bracket system up to 49% or 50% such as we have in australia so that citizens do not have to be without necessities such as healthcare.


Seriously, this thread makes me so thankful to be an Australian citizen. I just don't understand why America's system is the way it is. They've bought into the ideology of capitalism so much that it's now overruling basic neighbourly love and compassion. So sad that things are the way they are.


So, why doesn't every citizen in your country get free food? What if people starve? What about housing? Do you provide free housing?

I'm not claiming America is the greatest country in the world, but your logic astounds me. So where exactly is the line you draw between how much 'we should pay for those less fortunate?' Because no matter what you think it is, it's rather arbitrary and definitely subjective.

So how about you save your judgmental attitude? What if someone said you were a selfish, self-centered person because you don't volunteer 20 hours a week at the homeless shelter, or donate all of your savings to charity?


We have solutions (and problems) for things like this but its a mute point in the scheme of things as we don't suffer the unemploymnet that plagues the US, the extra stuff you added is also off topic. A lack of food leads to health problems,cause and effect, here we are talking about the effect not the cause.


All that other stuff you disregard as off topic is actually quite on topic. Same principal. Same exact principal. Same exact logic. Of course, people like to handwave it off when confronted on it because it isn't convenient to them. Typical.
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Ghad
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Norway2551 Posts
June 22 2011 15:20 GMT
#487
Newsflash: Healthcare isn't like every other thing in the world.
forgottendreams: One underage girl, two drunk guys, one gogo dancer and starcraft 2. Apparently just another day in Europe.
TanGeng
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sanya12364 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-22 15:34:21
June 22 2011 15:25 GMT
#488
On June 23 2011 00:11 dogabutila wrote:
*It's pathetic how people want the government to hand everything to them so they don't have to be responsible for themselves.
**Everybody would give up all the freedom they had if it only meant they did not have to work.
***There are really no advantages to a mandatory health insurance plan. None.

Point-by-point
*Actually, people mostly don't want to have to figure out everything for themselves. These people want a paternalistic government to make decisions for them. It's somewhat understandable and I wouldn't call it pathetic.

**They don't want to make uncomfortable choices or face uncomfortable realities. They can blame the "paternalistic" government when the economic realities fail.

***There is some benefit to mandatory health insurance in smaller more uniform risk populations. 300 million people of the US is a bit too large. Different prices for men and women would also help.

On June 23 2011 00:20 Ghad wrote:
Newsflash: Healthcare isn't like every other thing in the world.

Empty assertion???

It'd be more of a newsflash if you could substantiate, quantify, and qualify how it's different from every other thing in the world.
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LaSt)ChAnCe
Profile Blog Joined June 2005
United States2179 Posts
June 22 2011 15:34 GMT
#489
On June 22 2011 21:17 mcc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2011 17:55 LaSt)ChAnCe wrote:
On June 22 2011 17:42 Mootland wrote:
On June 22 2011 17:36 LaSt)ChAnCe wrote:
On June 22 2011 17:34 Mootland wrote:
You guys fight over these things okay? I'm just gonna enjoy my "free" healthcare in Finland, okay?
Oh and by the way, I think there are numerous researches about the current U.S. healthcare system and most of those researches have come into a conclusion that the current system is over 10 times more expensive for the states and the nation than what a nationwide tax money ran public healthcare would cost for the country, yet for some reason you Americans still hold on to that broken system of yours, maybe you should start voting for the right people in your elections, it would seem that the current ones are too greedy and can't think of the good of the nation, only the good of their pockets and wallets.


you seem to have something out for americans, tell us how you really feel?


Nothing against you really, it just amazes and somewhat amuses me that nothing is done about the situation while the general opinion seems to be that it must be changed, and my comment on the politics is correct in my opinion, Obama had huge troubles getting the recent changes through the senate did he not?


i have no idea.. i don't really know much about politics unless it involves me... i pay $48/month for 100% coverage with a $10 copay for anything (dental, medical, vision) and i am happy with that...

Are you a student or something ? Otherwise I highly doubt 48/month is 100% coverage(what do you mean by that anyway), what is your cap, in general wtf ? Average premiums for employer-provided insurance seems to be around 4000 annually. And I highly doubt even those are without caps and a lot of small print. With 48/month it would be actually as cheap as minimum wage workers pay here for insurance, and our spending per capita is 4-5 times lower than US.


nope, full time employee for time warner cable - 48/month is 100% coverage as long as i go to preferred providers for blue cross/blue shield (which are everywhere) - there isn't a cap, and $10 copay for almost everything
bonifaceviii
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada2890 Posts
June 22 2011 15:42 GMT
#490
This is an interesting blog post over at The Economist about how US Healthcare can be potentially more expensive:
+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2011/06/health-reform

DAVID BROOKS had an op-ed in the New York Times yesterday that proclaimed the near impossibility of restraining costs in health care through centralised government efficiency evaluations, which is being justly ridiculed by people (Jon Chait, Jonathan Cohn, Ezra Klein) who note that every single one of the world's centralised government-regulated health-care systems is far cheaper than America's relatively decentralised private-sector one. Mr Brooks has surely had this explained to him a thousand times by now, and his failure to process the fact or incorporate it into his worldview seems to me most likely to reflect an absence of the ideological furniture on which the fact could sit. Mr Brooks doesn't seem to have an instinctive understanding of how it can be possible for unregulated free-market health-care systems to cost more and deliver inferior care than strongly regulated systems with heavy government involvement, and that's why, while he occasionally must have to acknowledge the existence of the French health-care system, he can't seem to retain it.

Here's one example among a million. The other day I went to the IPO announcement of a company that does some fairly state-of-the-art medical stuff. The company was spun off from a public institute a few years back to exploit this technology, but it's been unable to establish significant revenue or market share, or to get within shouting distance of breaking even. Meanwhile, competitors with similar technologies have gobbled up most of the market share, and one is already quite profitable. The company said it planned to raise some tens of millions of dollars with the share issue, many times its current annual expenditures and about a third of its overall market cap. And what would it do with this money? It was going to use half of it to finance a marketing drive, targeting key decisionmakers at American health-care providers and health insurers, and doctors.

Why hadn't this company been able to generate significant revenues? Were its technologies inferior? No, said an independent molecular biologist I talked to. Its product was certainly as good as the competition's. Moreover, it had actually gone to the trouble of getting its technology approved by the FDA, which the competition hadn't. (In this sub-sector FDA approval isn't yet mandatory.) But it hadn't marketed itself well. It hadn't established the relationships with providers and insurers that would ensure that its product was the one they selected. Doing so would require a marketing budget of tens of millions of dollars, in a sub-sector where the entire annual market is a few hundred million dollars.

Just think about this for a minute. A medical technology company is going public to generate the money it needs to advertise its products to hospital directors and insurance-company reimbursement officers. This entails significant extra expenditures for marketing, the new stocks issued to fund the marketing will ultimately have to pay dividends, banks will have to be paid to supervise the IPO that was needed to generate the funds to finance the marketing campaign (presumably charging the industry-cartel standard 7%)...and all this will have to be paid for by driving up the price the company charges to deliver its technologies. But beyond the added expense, why would anyone think that a system in which marketing plays such a large role is likely to be more effective, to lead to better treatment, than the kind of process of expert review that governs grant awards at NIH or publishing decisions at peer-reviewed journals? Why do we think that a system in which ads for Claritin are all over the subways will generate better overall health results than one where a national review board determines whether Claritin delivers treatment outcomes for some populations sufficiently superior to justify its added expense over similar generics? What do we expect from a system in which, as ProPublica reports today, body imaging companies hire telemarketers to sell random people CT scans over the phone?

Matthew Yglesias takes the right tack by comparing the medical industry to the shoe industry, where we all agree that the private sector produces far better shoes at far lower cost than could be produced by a state-owned manufacturer. I think the analogy is also helpful when we add in the dimension of marketing. Beyond a certain point, you can't explain the value of a great pair of shoes in any rational fashion. The reason a pair of Air Jordans was vastly superior to a pair of nondescript Soviet sneakers in 1989 was only partly that they were more durable, or had better support and traction. Most of the added value wasn't there. It was in the interplay of marketing and fashion. The satisfaction customers derive from marketing and fashion is absolutely real; in the case of shoes, it's practically the whole point. But in the case of medicine, it usually shouldn't have any place in decisionmaking. We shouldn't be aiming to make Americans happy by marketing medically useless knee surgery to them and then letting them walk down the street feeling all fine and dandy with snazzy new knees that aren't actually any better than the old ones. Not in the publically insured sector, anyway. Medically unnecessary cosmetic surgery is fine, but not on the taxpayer's dime.

The other key thing to pay attention to is who this marketing campaign was targeted at: key decisionmakers at providers and insurance companies. Those are the people who decide whether medical procedures get ordered. It's not patients. Patients aren't going to experience a loss of freedom or satisfaction because an expert reviewer at the Independant Payment Advisory Board makes the call as to whether a procedure is medically beneficial, rather than the corresponding bureaucrat at their insurance provider or at the for-profit clinic they're attending. Health care is different from buying shoes. Which is why it wouldn't be at all surprising if a board of 15 experts could play a major role in reducing expenses and improving care outcomes in the American medical industry. That's what corresponding boards of experts in France, Germany, Britain, Canada, the Netherlands and so on do, which is why their health-care systems cost half what ours does, cover everyone in their countries, and generally provide better care.
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TanGeng
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sanya12364 Posts
June 22 2011 15:43 GMT
#491
On June 23 2011 00:34 LaSt)ChAnCe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2011 21:17 mcc wrote:
Are you a student or something ? Otherwise I highly doubt 48/month is 100% coverage(what do you mean by that anyway), what is your cap, in general wtf ? Average premiums for employer-provided insurance seems to be around 4000 annually. And I highly doubt even those are without caps and a lot of small print. With 48/month it would be actually as cheap as minimum wage workers pay here for insurance, and our spending per capita is 4-5 times lower than US.


nope, full time employee for time warner cable - 48/month is 100% coverage as long as i go to preferred providers for blue cross/blue shield (which are everywhere) - there isn't a cap, and $10 copay for almost everything


Single, right?
Age doesn't matter since you're probably pool in some risk group along with fellow employees.
48/month is after 80% employer coverage, right? Full premium price would then be 240 per month?

As for per capital spending, they're meaningless unless prices are mainly market driven. If you have any market manipulation or subsidization, the raw numbers are beyond distorted.
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Drake
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany6146 Posts
June 22 2011 15:44 GMT
#492
On June 22 2011 04:35 Pawsom wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2011 04:34 Carras wrote:
Only in America.



Well yeah, everywhere else provides proper health care


well if that was ironic i have to say you that the most countrys DOES
there was even some demo with sending some us guys to KUBA cause kuba does this healthcare which us didnt xD and if kuba have better health system then usa i would start thinking
Nb.Drake / CoL_Drake / Original Joined TL.net Tuesday, 15th of March 2005
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
June 22 2011 15:45 GMT
#493
On June 23 2011 00:11 dogabutila wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2011 15:30 mcc wrote:
On June 22 2011 14:58 dogabutila wrote:
On June 22 2011 10:19 Toadesstern wrote:
On June 22 2011 09:57 dogabutila wrote:
On June 22 2011 09:43 Toadesstern wrote:
On June 22 2011 09:33 Medrea wrote:
Lol what a dolt. Prison healthcare is terrible and they hit up your estate for it when you die.

Other people in thread saying there countries healthcare is free do not pay taxes I know it is stylish in many countries to leach off the system and not pay taxes. In China it is grounds for execution. In the US they hit up your estate for it after you die. But US pays there taxes nonetheless.

This dumbass is dreaming if he thinks he is gonna get a coast property on a fixed income.

So why is government healthcare such a rip off? Same people who eat grease off the carpet pay the same rates as young people who do not even need healthcare. Just because a cost is labeled "taxes" doesnt mean its free.

Do people in other countries really think there healthcare comes out of the goodness of the medical communities hearts?


nah people in other countries think it's "fair" to let everyone pay taxes, instead of just one human beeing paying a shitload of money because he got unlucky in some kind of accident he could not have affected and therefore having debts for the rest of his (ruined) life.


See I hear this argument a lot but it's not really realistic either. How many people get randomly unlucky? vs how many people choose to believe that they are unlucky?

Most medical issues are not random, and are generally a combination of lifestyle and genetic factors. All of these are predictable. People should educate themselves and assess their own risk.


That's exactly my point. There's an EXTREMLY low amount of people who get unlucky, like REALY EXTREMLY low. But those are fucked for the rest of their lifes for no other reason than beeing unlucky.
I'm not talking about a cough or something like that. We got to pay 10€ everytime we go to a doctor in germany. Noone cares about that.
But one might care about some serious problems, that are that rare and more importantly costly, that a single person might not be able to pay for it.

I don't know what the numbers for stuff like cancer or genetic illnesses are (really don't know what it's called in english sry, guess it's clear what I'm talking about?). Let's say one out a thousand gets cancer or something like that, just for the purpose of numbers. Do you think it's fair that the guy has to pay for the treatment himself (aprox: shittons of money) and 999 people who got lucky, because they don't have cancer don't have to pay? not even a single cent?
If you think that's fair I'm glad I'm not living in the us.

Of course there's things like alcoholics who got an increased chance to need a new liver someday and therefore you could probably say it's their own fault but still, as long as we're able to help I think we should do, no matter what.


Yes. I think that it is entirely fair that people should take care of their own personal problems. I would not think it is fair if my neighbor gets a flat tire because he was driving over glass and I have to buy him a new tire.

Do you think it is fair to force other people to pay for the problems of others? Heres a thought, give away your money to all your co-workers. I'm sure they have problems that you do not have. It's not fair that you have money to spend while they have important issues and bills to take care of.

Are you just comparing not having a working car with dying ? You not having a working car does not pose really any moral problem for the society. Society letting you die unnecessarily because you have no money on the other hand is a moral dilemma for normal humans.
And yes I think sometimes it is fair to force other people to pay for the problems of others. Depends on the details, as always.

On June 22 2011 14:58 dogabutila wrote:
On June 22 2011 13:05 mcc wrote:
On June 22 2011 12:24 cyanide66 wrote:
why should i have to pay for someone else's health care?

Well in well designed public healthcare system you are not paying for other people's health care anymore than you do when you pay insurance to your insurance company. You are basically paying insurance, the difference is you cannot choose different provider and you are forced to insure yourself. And of course the amount you pay is calculated kind of strangely for an insurance


And if you decide that you do not want to pay insurance the men with guns kick in your door and take it from you. Awesome huh? And you are paying for others health care as long as you are not sick.

I have nothing against law enforcement. So yes, awesome.
Did you actually read what I wrote ? Yes you are paying for the healthcare of others as far as having insurance is paying healthcare for others. The mandatory nature of that insurance does not change that fact. In private insurance case if you are healthy and paying insurance, you are also paying healthcare for others.
As for the rest, I have no problem with mandatory health insurance, I find it a good thing, you do not. There are many advantages, and the only disadvantage is loss of so-called "freedom" not to pay. I do not consider it important freedom to begin with so I do not care.

EDIT:typo


Actually, yes. The principal of the issue is the same. There is no "moral" problem for society to deal with. Besides, why are we legislating morality? Should we also require everybody take bible classes and outlaw abortion and teach creationism in school? If you think it fair to force others to pay for the problems of others, where do you draw the line? How do you decide? Or is it only okay to make people pay for others when you are making people richer then you pay for yourself?

Paying for insurance is paying for healthcare for others. Sometimes people don't want or need it. Yes, did you read what I wrote? In real life, people can decide they do not need or want insurance. It's pathetic how people want the government to hand everything to them so they don't have to be responsible for themselves. Everybody would give up all the freedom they had if it only meant they did not have to work. There are really no advantages to a mandatory health insurance plan. None.

Do not confuse real moral(ethical) problems with mostly imaginary problems of religious people. And all reasonable laws legislate morality at least to some degree, otherwise they are pointless. And you draw the line in such a way as to maximize benefit to society. It is too general, yes, but specific answer depends on the issue in question and even then it is very hard to determine.

You will probably have at least one of the following replies to the above:
1) Who am I (or anyone) to decide what is of biggest benefit to society ?
Well that is the crux of the matter as it comes down to morality/ethical systems we use. There is probably no point discussing that with you as we will not agree on the common basis to be able to discuss it.
Another way to answer it would be to point out that I am just saying that I have no problem with forcing people for a good reason, but I am not doing the forcing and I am not doing the deciding where to draw the line and what is a good reason. Both are in fact societal processes that are in the long run not really driven by anyone in particular unfortunately, because as such they are not really maximizing benefit to society. From historical perspective they are just increasing that benefit for most of the time very slightly in the long term.

2) You might also oppose on the basis of rights. But again I consider rights just approximations of deeper principles for everyday use. Kind of quick way to determine right and wrong if time is short. And again we probably cannot agree on any basis for further discussion.

But maybe I am wrong, and we can agree on some basis for the discussion of those ethical topics.

As for the rest there is a lot of advantages to mandatory public healthcare. Economies of scale, not dealing with problems like what to do with uninsured person dying of curable causes. Do we let him die, or help him at our expense. Moral response is to help him, but then people would start to misuse that, so we just make insurance mandatory. Other advantages are related to productivity and benefits of people feeling and being save from crushing disasters. And yes people always have and always will sacrifice freedom for safety. And there is nothing wrong with that if that trade is not an illusion.
Kevan
Profile Joined April 2011
Sweden2303 Posts
June 22 2011 15:46 GMT
#494
This is another reason why I wouldn't ever want to live in the US. What could be more important than healthcare for those who need it?
SC2, rip in pepperinos
partisan
Profile Joined January 2011
United States783 Posts
June 22 2011 15:51 GMT
#495
On June 23 2011 00:46 Kevan wrote:
This is another reason why I wouldn't ever want to live in the US. What could be more important than healthcare for those who need it?


Our healthcare bill that was passed a few years back will do a tremendous job of helping a situation like this, but the problem is that it doesn't take effect until 2014. So unfortunately this kind of thing will happen in the meantime.
TanGeng
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sanya12364 Posts
June 22 2011 15:52 GMT
#496
On June 23 2011 00:46 Kevan wrote:
This is another reason why I wouldn't ever want to live in the US. What could be more important than healthcare for those who need it?


Overwhelming red tape or lawsuits for doctors willing to help the needy apparently...

State governments have nearly made it impossibly expensive or risky for doctors to give out health care for free.
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The KY
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United Kingdom6252 Posts
June 22 2011 15:54 GMT
#497
On June 23 2011 00:15 dogabutila wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2011 15:58 recklessfire wrote:
dude just calling the ambulance in the US costs around 5,000 dollars,what a joke. My friend's mom broke her arm and after calling 911 they got slapped with a 5,000 dollar bill. America's healthcare system is pretty broken atm.


You know why that is? Because you are also paying for the people that use the service and can't pay for it.

"well why not make everybody pay for it?! thats more fair then me needing to pay for other people!"

Obviously because you used the service and I didn't. It would be more fair if everybody who needed the service paid for it and so you didn't have to make up the cost right? It's most fair when people who use the service pay for it, and people who do not use the service do not pay for it.


Why can't we just do that instead? It's like that for EVERY. OTHER. thing in the world.


Show nested quote +
On June 22 2011 18:18 BordZ wrote:
On June 22 2011 18:12 Ocedic wrote:
On June 22 2011 17:35 snotboogie wrote:
On June 22 2011 16:08 Geolich wrote:
what a joke of a country america is

i cannot fathom how people can be so heartless to say 'well its his problem, why should i pay for it'

what sort of attitude is this? i mean some idiot earlier compared this to paying for his neighbours tire when it goes flat after driving over glass. are you fucking serious?

give me my tax bracket system up to 49% or 50% such as we have in australia so that citizens do not have to be without necessities such as healthcare.


Seriously, this thread makes me so thankful to be an Australian citizen. I just don't understand why America's system is the way it is. They've bought into the ideology of capitalism so much that it's now overruling basic neighbourly love and compassion. So sad that things are the way they are.


So, why doesn't every citizen in your country get free food? What if people starve? What about housing? Do you provide free housing?

I'm not claiming America is the greatest country in the world, but your logic astounds me. So where exactly is the line you draw between how much 'we should pay for those less fortunate?' Because no matter what you think it is, it's rather arbitrary and definitely subjective.

So how about you save your judgmental attitude? What if someone said you were a selfish, self-centered person because you don't volunteer 20 hours a week at the homeless shelter, or donate all of your savings to charity?


We have solutions (and problems) for things like this but its a mute point in the scheme of things as we don't suffer the unemploymnet that plagues the US, the extra stuff you added is also off topic. A lack of food leads to health problems,cause and effect, here we are talking about the effect not the cause.


All that other stuff you disregard as off topic is actually quite on topic. Same principal. Same exact principal. Same exact logic. Of course, people like to handwave it off when confronted on it because it isn't convenient to them. Typical.


Bolded = BUUULL. SHIT.

Police. Fire service. Education. Armed forces. The whole fucking public sector.

How about next time something is stolen from you, you pay for the police to investigate it? Why should other people pay for a service they are not using?

How about if your house is on fire, unless you have insurance you don't get a fire service? How about everyone funds their own kids education?

Is this ultra-capitalist society you seem to think you live in nice? Because it sounds fucking horrific to me.

...seriously if you didn't realise that there are plenty of services that are publicly funded, where the fuck did you think your taxes were going?
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
June 22 2011 15:54 GMT
#498
On June 23 2011 00:34 LaSt)ChAnCe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2011 21:17 mcc wrote:
On June 22 2011 17:55 LaSt)ChAnCe wrote:
On June 22 2011 17:42 Mootland wrote:
On June 22 2011 17:36 LaSt)ChAnCe wrote:
On June 22 2011 17:34 Mootland wrote:
You guys fight over these things okay? I'm just gonna enjoy my "free" healthcare in Finland, okay?
Oh and by the way, I think there are numerous researches about the current U.S. healthcare system and most of those researches have come into a conclusion that the current system is over 10 times more expensive for the states and the nation than what a nationwide tax money ran public healthcare would cost for the country, yet for some reason you Americans still hold on to that broken system of yours, maybe you should start voting for the right people in your elections, it would seem that the current ones are too greedy and can't think of the good of the nation, only the good of their pockets and wallets.


you seem to have something out for americans, tell us how you really feel?


Nothing against you really, it just amazes and somewhat amuses me that nothing is done about the situation while the general opinion seems to be that it must be changed, and my comment on the politics is correct in my opinion, Obama had huge troubles getting the recent changes through the senate did he not?


i have no idea.. i don't really know much about politics unless it involves me... i pay $48/month for 100% coverage with a $10 copay for anything (dental, medical, vision) and i am happy with that...

Are you a student or something ? Otherwise I highly doubt 48/month is 100% coverage(what do you mean by that anyway), what is your cap, in general wtf ? Average premiums for employer-provided insurance seems to be around 4000 annually. And I highly doubt even those are without caps and a lot of small print. With 48/month it would be actually as cheap as minimum wage workers pay here for insurance, and our spending per capita is 4-5 times lower than US.


nope, full time employee for time warner cable - 48/month is 100% coverage as long as i go to preferred providers for blue cross/blue shield (which are everywhere) - there isn't a cap, and $10 copay for almost everything

Even considering the correction by TanGeng it still seems you have rather exceptionally good plan. Good for you, bad for those who don't.
IzieBoy
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States865 Posts
June 22 2011 15:58 GMT
#499
i don't think the jail doctor minds...but someone is paying for this lol... doctor's time isn't exactly a a commodity not in demand
Let's Do This! Leeeeeeeeeeeeeroy Jenkins!
TanGeng
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sanya12364 Posts
June 22 2011 16:00 GMT
#500
On June 23 2011 00:54 The KY wrote:
Bolded = BUUULL. SHIT.

Police. Fire service. Education. Armed forces. The whole fucking public sector.

How about next time something is stolen from you, you pay for the police to investigate it? Why should other people pay for a service they are not using?

How about if your house is on fire, unless you have insurance you don't get a fire service? How about everyone funds their own kids education?

Fire insurance worked very well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_insurance_marks

Also California private fire insurance:
http://articles.sfgate.com/2008-07-27/news/17173631_1_private-firefighters-forest-service-firefighter-wildfires/2

As for paying the police to investigate stolen property, you might as well. Currently all the police does is file a police report. Then they do NOTHING. Seriously.
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