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On May 27 2011 15:42 atheistaphobe wrote:
Do you understand that the majority of people feel that honoring the tradition of prayer is not establishing a religion? Do you understand that most people logically think that acknowledging that people are religious is not the government promoting religion.
This is a classic religious way of thinking. The fact that people feel something is true has no causal link with its veracity. Even if everyone thinks that there is no harm done in speaking some meaningless words with your head facing your best parts, in the end, your pews will be a little bit more crowded and your coffers a little more full.
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Imagine if the student was of any other faith (non atheist). If you listen to the recording the presenter specifically proclaims that it is the Christian god that made everyone successful. That means something specific to you, that your years of work and study were not that of your own, but from some (from the perspective of the student) false god. How could that not be insulting?
And even if this was not for selfless reasons, acting to force the government to abide by its own rules is never a bad thing. A school is not “part of a community” it is a part of government and once you start letting the government trot on your rights, you slowly end up with things like the patriot act.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety ~ Benjamin Franklin
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On May 27 2011 15:41 Alventenie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 15:36 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 27 2011 15:35 johanngrunt wrote:Prayer is useless, or at best no better than chance. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/o/cochrane/clsysrev/articles/CD000368/frame.htmlMain results
Ten studies are included in this review (7646 patients). For the comparison of intercessory prayer plus standard care versus standard care alone, overall there was no clear effect of intercessory prayer on death (6 RCTs, n=3389, random-effects RR 0.73 CI 0.38 to 1.38). Data are heterogeneous (I2 =85%). Excluding one study from the meta-analysis (n=760) decreases this heterogeneity (I2 =44%) and shifts the finding towards the null (5 RCTs, n=2629, random RR 0.97 CI 0.63 to 1.50). For general clinical state there was also no significant difference between groups (5 RCTs, n=2705, RR intermediate or bad outcome 0.98 CI 0.86 to 1.11). Four studies found no effect for re-admission to Coronary Care Unit (4 RCTs, n=2644, RR 1.00 CI 0.77 to 1.30).Two other trials found intercessory prayer had no effect on re-hospitalisation (2 RCTs, n=1155, RR 0.93 CI 0.71 to 1.22).
Authors' conclusions
These findings are equivocal and, although some of the results of individual studies suggest a positive effect of intercessory prayer, the majority do not and the evidence does not support a recommendation either in favour or against the use of intercessory prayer. We are not convinced that further trials of this intervention should be undertaken and would prefer to see any resources available for such a trial used to investigate other questions in health care. So why would you want to do something that is useless? why would you be offended if someone wanted to do something useless if it didn't hurt anyone? Its not about the fact that someone is doing something useless. Its the fact that a government funded school is saying you have to pray (whether you pray or not is your own choice, the contested part of this graduation is that the school is saying there is a time dedicated to a religious activity). If the school said, have a moment of silence, and 99% of the people prayed, this kid wouldn't of said anything. But the fact that the school said, Bow your heads and pray, thats them putting religion into the ceremony as a government body, something that is illegal. I dont see how this is hard to understand, its not a whether you pray or not, even if no one prayed but the school said "bow your heads in prayer", it would still be illegal with no one participating.
since when did a prayer at the graduation turn into everyone present is forced to use tax-money to pray?
I think you're misinterpreting the situation. alls he had to do was sit quiet for a minute or two while most of the crowd closed their eyes and listened to someone blabber
it isn't that much to expect considering he's going to be sitting there listening to people blabber for several hours if his graduation was anything like mine
here this is what I did in his situation:
I'm sitting in my chair thinking about how bad I want to go home and play starcraft, what's for dinner I'm hungry, that girl is hot
"okay bow your head and pray"
oh no the end of the world, a public school is praying at my graduation, I feel so lonely and isolated and offended what will I do I have no liberty or freedom
oh wait, no I just sort of kept doing what I had been doing being and would continue doing until the ceremony ended
ROFL get off your high horses
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On May 27 2011 15:45 Phibred wrote:
Imagine if the student was of any other faith (non atheist). If you listen to the recording the presenter specifically proclaims that it is the Christian god that made everyone successful. That means something specific to you, that your years of work and study were not that of your own, but from some (from the perspective of the student) false god. How could that not be insulting?
i wasnt insulted i just think hes wrong
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On May 27 2011 15:39 Ghost151 wrote:
he derserves this
separation of church/state debate and atheist vs. fundie arguments aside, he spat in the faces of an overwhelming majority of one ideology by threatening to blow a whistle to the ACLU about unconstitutional happenings. I'm sure nobody would force HIM to do anything he didn't want to and he's being an instigating little shit in his stance against what is seen as tradition there.
Lets look at this for a second. He's in Louisiana...not exactly the most liberal of place in this country. He chooses to stir shit up for no reason, by attacking a tradition, one of the things people are most stubborn about, not by voicing his opinion, but by flat out sending an ultimatum to them.
Is he stupid?
People need to learn that just because you have a differing opinion does not make it the right one, and especially so when you are in the vast minority. You'd best be prepared to eat a lot of shit coming your way if you wanna say the world ain't flat anymore and everyone else says it is. He did this in about the most tactless way he could in the wrong place and time. Seriously.
Do I support him? No. He's a dumbass.
Do I support the crazy ass people threatening him or his family for disowning him? No. I see their gross overreaction just as off the handle as his.
But the point is, he brought it upon himself. So he'd best be prepared for what hardships just a little restraint or conformity could have saved him.
so your advice to him would be to be a gullible and conformist sheep yes ?
i hope you're not in education
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Sorry to harp on the point when nobody seems to care but:
Why aren't we congratulating the parents for standing up for their beliefs through a legal manner?
It's obvious why we aren't, and yet we're still congratulating Fowler for the same thing?
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Vatican City State2594 Posts
Although I think that he is clearly in the "right" here, I agree with others that this was a poor way to handle it. Someone said "sometimes it's wiser not to fight." I agree wholeheartedly. He was not forced to join the prayer - plain and simple.
Being forced to attend someone saying something is what life is in high school anyway. Just because they pray, it doesn't mean that it has to be different. I believe most socially conscious (not cowards) people wouldn't mind sitting through a few minutes of people talking about what they believe in at a microphone, even if they disagree with them. Why should religion be any different?
What if the Valedictorian speech at your high school was from a person who mainly talked about God and how he guided them to success and should guide everyone else the whole time? The school can't force them to say no. And you would have to sit through it. Is the fact that school arranged for this event really that different, or much of a crime in the moral sense? I don't see the absolute injustice in that.
He, like other students, has the option not to attend. Some people choose not to for many reasons, if he feels so strongly about a person talking for 3 minutes then I think he is the one on weaker moral ground here. Labeling it as 'religion' should not change anything except the fact that it breaks the law set forth by the USA, where "... and to the Republic, for which it stands, one nation under God..." is part of the Pledge of Allegiance that is mandatory every morning. Somehow verbally pledging your allegiance to a nation under God is less offensive to you than to listening other people pray? That is bigotry and hypocrisy at its finest.
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This is extremely heartbreaking news! The Bible does not teach us to hate! (Besides hating our parents etc... "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters - yes, even their own life - such a person cannot be my disciple" - Luke 14:26.)
I ask all of the Christians here on TeamLiquid to pray along with me. Close your eyes, raise your hands in the air and wave them around as we petition our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ:
"Dear God, please save this young man's soul from the sins of atheism! We ask that You trample the Devil beneath Your foot and expose the evil that is moral relativity for what it is! Shakalababababa! Shekalababababababa! Shalabababababa! Yes Lord! Yes Lord! In Jesus' Name! Shakalabababababababa!"
(For those wondering what the fuck I'm doing, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speaking_in_tongues#Glossolalia_in_Christianity - alternatively visit any Pentecostal Church on a Sunday morning for a demonstration.)
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On May 27 2011 15:39 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 15:35 VIB wrote:
You guys saying he should let them pray because it doesn't hurt anyone.
Do you not understand that public school praying = government promoting religion?
Or do you not understand why government shouldn't promote religion?
Or both? do you not understand that both of those might not be true?
Did you consciously just said that there's nothing wrong with government imposing religion on people or did you type "both" by accident?
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On May 27 2011 15:47 sanya wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 15:39 Ghost151 wrote:
he derserves this
separation of church/state debate and atheist vs. fundie arguments aside, he spat in the faces of an overwhelming majority of one ideology by threatening to blow a whistle to the ACLU about unconstitutional happenings. I'm sure nobody would force HIM to do anything he didn't want to and he's being an instigating little shit in his stance against what is seen as tradition there.
Lets look at this for a second. He's in Louisiana...not exactly the most liberal of place in this country. He chooses to stir shit up for no reason, by attacking a tradition, one of the things people are most stubborn about, not by voicing his opinion, but by flat out sending an ultimatum to them.
Is he stupid?
People need to learn that just because you have a differing opinion does not make it the right one, and especially so when you are in the vast minority. You'd best be prepared to eat a lot of shit coming your way if you wanna say the world ain't flat anymore and everyone else says it is. He did this in about the most tactless way he could in the wrong place and time. Seriously.
Do I support him? No. He's a dumbass.
Do I support the crazy ass people threatening him or his family for disowning him? No. I see their gross overreaction just as off the handle as his.
But the point is, he brought it upon himself. So he'd best be prepared for what hardships just a little restraint or conformity could have saved him.
so your advice to him would be to be a gullible and conformist sheep yes ? i hope you're not in education
his advice is to keep your head down and not say X when you are surrounded by people who will run you out of town for saying X
keeping your head down does not make you gullible
it does make you conformist though
and we can't be conforming that's bad
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On May 27 2011 15:40 WGarrison wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 15:30 atheistaphobe wrote:On May 27 2011 15:19 Popss wrote:
What about atheism have to be proved.
I actually really don't get that :S Let me help you out. God exists. Its my word against the atheists. God can show the atheist that he exists, but the atheist can never show me that God does not exist. Logically you are saying everything exists because you can't prove that it doesn't. The gods can prove that multiple gods exist but you cannot prove that only one god exists.
Thats why I search out God and let him prove himself to me.
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On May 27 2011 15:47 TheLink wrote:
Why aren't we congratulating the parents for standing up for their beliefs through a legal manner?
Actually, it's almost certainly not legal to evict someone by throwing their stuff out onto the porch like that; living at a location for a long period of time (even without paying rent!) gives someone a certain amount of rights.
Then again Louisiana is so regressive that tenant's rights may be a foreign concept there.
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On May 27 2011 15:47 TheLink wrote:
Sorry to harp on the point when nobody seems to care but:
Why aren't we congratulating the parents for standing up for their beliefs through a legal manner?
It's obvious why we aren't, and yet we're still congratulating Fowler for the same thing?
his parents weren't upholding the constitution
also a lot of people here think his parents are retarded
On May 27 2011 15:48 atheistaphobe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 15:40 WGarrison wrote:On May 27 2011 15:30 atheistaphobe wrote:On May 27 2011 15:19 Popss wrote:
What about atheism have to be proved.
I actually really don't get that :S Let me help you out. God exists. Its my word against the atheists. God can show the atheist that he exists, but the atheist can never show me that God does not exist. Logically you are saying everything exists because you can't prove that it doesn't. The gods can prove that multiple gods exist but you cannot prove that only one god exists. Thats why I search out God and let him prove himself to me.
personal revelation does not constitute proof as the term is commonly understood in english
On May 27 2011 15:49 blah_blah wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 15:47 TheLink wrote:
Why aren't we congratulating the parents for standing up for their beliefs through a legal manner?
Actually, it's almost certainly not legal to evict someone by throwing their stuff out onto the porch like that; living at a location for a long period of time (even without paying rent!) gives someone a certain amount of rights. Then again Louisiana is so regressive that tenant's rights may be a foreign concept there.
maybe he should contact the ACLU and threaten to sue his parents
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Its pretty hilarious how many people, the majority apparently from the United States, who never bothered to read their own fucking Bill of Rights. Are you people retarded?
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On May 27 2011 15:49 blah_blah wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 15:47 TheLink wrote:
Why aren't we congratulating the parents for standing up for their beliefs through a legal manner?
Actually, it's almost certainly not legal to evict someone by throwing their stuff out onto the porch like that; living at a location for a long period of time (even without paying rent!) gives someone a certain amount of rights.
I'm reasonably confident that without a contract it does not.
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On May 27 2011 15:37 Emperor_Earth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 15:20 KSMB wrote:On May 27 2011 15:15 atheistaphobe wrote:Social Sciences prove again and again that devout Christians live a healthier life and that prayer has an effect. Absolute horseshit. As an atheist, I'm going to have to side with atheistaphobe here. Humans tend to live longer and be more productive when they are given a focus/direction. Religion has, in many cases, been a very organized way to align one's views/goals/life around. In fact, I would argue that this was the original idea of religion at the tribe level. Get a group of men who need each other for their best chance of survival something separate to believe in together. A bonding experience at a tertiary level that allows for greater trust and harmony when you start running around with weapons... hopefully aimed at animals or rival tribes.
But that's not really arguments for "healthier" is it? I can eat healthy whether I'm atheist or not. There's no statistic that's going to say, atheists eat less vegetables than theists.
Of course prayer has an effect. Everything you do has an effect on something else, psychological or real. But it wasn't specified what the effect was, and he's trying to be vague on purpose.
There is no religion debate here. It's a case where stupid people got offended that some kid called them out for using government money illegally, then handled the situation stupidly.
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On May 27 2011 15:42 atheistaphobe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 15:35 VIB wrote:
You guys saying he should let them pray because it doesn't hurt anyone.
Do you not understand that public school praying = government promoting religion?
Or do you not understand why government shouldn't promote religion?
Or both? Do you understand that the majority of people feel that honoring the tradition of prayer is not establishing a religion? Do you understand that most people logically think that acknowledging that people are religious is not the government promoting religion. Do you understand that old judges are stupid biased people who have no logic?
hello kind sir
please read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
and then realize that it doesn't matter what the majority thinks in regards to it being true or not
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On May 27 2011 15:48 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 15:39 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 27 2011 15:35 VIB wrote:
You guys saying he should let them pray because it doesn't hurt anyone.
Do you not understand that public school praying = government promoting religion?
Or do you not understand why government shouldn't promote religion?
Or both? do you not understand that both of those might not be true? Did you consciously just said that there's nothing wrong with government imposing religion on people or did you type "both" by accident?
is that what you said? did you say "there is nothing wrong with government imposing religion on people"?
or do you not understand that you said two completely different things in your post which my statement was made in reference to
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On May 27 2011 15:46 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 15:41 Alventenie wrote:On May 27 2011 15:36 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 27 2011 15:35 johanngrunt wrote:Prayer is useless, or at best no better than chance. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/o/cochrane/clsysrev/articles/CD000368/frame.htmlMain results
Ten studies are included in this review (7646 patients). For the comparison of intercessory prayer plus standard care versus standard care alone, overall there was no clear effect of intercessory prayer on death (6 RCTs, n=3389, random-effects RR 0.73 CI 0.38 to 1.38). Data are heterogeneous (I2 =85%). Excluding one study from the meta-analysis (n=760) decreases this heterogeneity (I2 =44%) and shifts the finding towards the null (5 RCTs, n=2629, random RR 0.97 CI 0.63 to 1.50). For general clinical state there was also no significant difference between groups (5 RCTs, n=2705, RR intermediate or bad outcome 0.98 CI 0.86 to 1.11). Four studies found no effect for re-admission to Coronary Care Unit (4 RCTs, n=2644, RR 1.00 CI 0.77 to 1.30).Two other trials found intercessory prayer had no effect on re-hospitalisation (2 RCTs, n=1155, RR 0.93 CI 0.71 to 1.22).
Authors' conclusions
These findings are equivocal and, although some of the results of individual studies suggest a positive effect of intercessory prayer, the majority do not and the evidence does not support a recommendation either in favour or against the use of intercessory prayer. We are not convinced that further trials of this intervention should be undertaken and would prefer to see any resources available for such a trial used to investigate other questions in health care. So why would you want to do something that is useless? why would you be offended if someone wanted to do something useless if it didn't hurt anyone? Its not about the fact that someone is doing something useless. Its the fact that a government funded school is saying you have to pray (whether you pray or not is your own choice, the contested part of this graduation is that the school is saying there is a time dedicated to a religious activity). If the school said, have a moment of silence, and 99% of the people prayed, this kid wouldn't of said anything. But the fact that the school said, Bow your heads and pray, thats them putting religion into the ceremony as a government body, something that is illegal. I dont see how this is hard to understand, its not a whether you pray or not, even if no one prayed but the school said "bow your heads in prayer", it would still be illegal with no one participating. since when did a prayer at the graduation turn into everyone present is forced to use tax-money to pray? I think you're misinterpreting the situation. alls he had to do was sit quiet for a minute or two while most of the crowd closed their eyes and listened to someone blabber it isn't that much to expect considering he's going to be sitting there listening to people blabber for several hours if his graduation was anything like mine here this is what I did in his situation:I'm sitting in my chair thinking about how bad I want to go home and play starcraft, what's for dinner I'm hungry, that girl is hot "okay bow your head and pray" I continue doing what I had been doing oh no the end of the world, a public school is praying at my graduation, I feel so lonely and isolated and offended what will I do I have no liberty or freedom ROFL get off your high horses
I am not misinterpreting the situation. It is illegal for a school to promote religious activity as an official event. it doesnt matter if its 2 minutes, or 2 hours, or 2 days. It doesn't matter if the actual situation is harmless, its against he law. Its a public school, therefore everyone that goes to the school has already paid for going there through taxes. The law says the school cannot tell/lead students in religious activity, thats all. They could of easily just said, have a moment of silence and nothing would be wrong, but the fact that they are saying bow your head and pray is breaking the law.
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EPT
