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On May 27 2011 15:50 Dhalphir wrote:
Its pretty hilarious how many people, the majority apparently from the United States, who never bothered to read their own fucking Bill of Rights. Are you people retarded?
its not obvious that prayer in school violates the separation clause
americans didn't figure that one one for almost two hundred years
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it sure seems obvious to me.
Then again, I can totally understand how legal-speak can be a bit difficult to clearly interpret for those not used to reading it.
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On May 27 2011 15:51 EmeraldSparks wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 15:50 Dhalphir wrote:
Its pretty hilarious how many people, the majority apparently from the United States, who never bothered to read their own fucking Bill of Rights. Are you people retarded? its not obvious that prayer in school violates the separation clause americans didn't figure that one one for almost two hundred years
Yea it wasn't obvious that we shouldn't own slaves and allow women to vote either. What's your point?
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On May 27 2011 15:50 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 15:48 VIB wrote:On May 27 2011 15:39 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 27 2011 15:35 VIB wrote:
You guys saying he should let them pray because it doesn't hurt anyone.
Do you not understand that public school praying = government promoting religion?
Or do you not understand why government shouldn't promote religion?
Or both? do you not understand that both of those might not be true? Did you consciously just said that there's nothing wrong with government imposing religion on people or did you type "both" by accident? is that what you said? did you say "there is nothing wrong with government imposing religion on people"? or do you not understand that you said two completely different things in your post which my statement was made in reference to
Meh, you cannot even read. ¬¬ I give up on you...
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On May 27 2011 15:52 Dhalphir wrote:
it sure seems obvious to me.
Then again, I can totally understand how legal-speak can be a bit difficult to clearly interpret for those not used to reading it.
just as I can understand how a forum goer can get the forum confused with a courtroom.
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On May 27 2011 15:50 aguy38 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 15:49 blah_blah wrote:On May 27 2011 15:47 TheLink wrote:
Why aren't we congratulating the parents for standing up for their beliefs through a legal manner?
Actually, it's almost certainly not legal to evict someone by throwing their stuff out onto the porch like that; living at a location for a long period of time (even without paying rent!) gives someone a certain amount of rights. I'm reasonably confident that without a contract it does not.
I'm 100% confident that there are many jurisdictions in North America where this is 100% illegal (and contracts have nothing to do with it); I have no clue about Louisiana in particular. You can evict these people, but it requires several steps which take place over a period of a month or more; you can't just drop their stuff on the curb and be in the legal clear.
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On May 27 2011 15:46 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 15:41 Alventenie wrote:On May 27 2011 15:36 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 27 2011 15:35 johanngrunt wrote:Prayer is useless, or at best no better than chance. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/o/cochrane/clsysrev/articles/CD000368/frame.htmlMain results
Ten studies are included in this review (7646 patients). For the comparison of intercessory prayer plus standard care versus standard care alone, overall there was no clear effect of intercessory prayer on death (6 RCTs, n=3389, random-effects RR 0.73 CI 0.38 to 1.38). Data are heterogeneous (I2 =85%). Excluding one study from the meta-analysis (n=760) decreases this heterogeneity (I2 =44%) and shifts the finding towards the null (5 RCTs, n=2629, random RR 0.97 CI 0.63 to 1.50). For general clinical state there was also no significant difference between groups (5 RCTs, n=2705, RR intermediate or bad outcome 0.98 CI 0.86 to 1.11). Four studies found no effect for re-admission to Coronary Care Unit (4 RCTs, n=2644, RR 1.00 CI 0.77 to 1.30).Two other trials found intercessory prayer had no effect on re-hospitalisation (2 RCTs, n=1155, RR 0.93 CI 0.71 to 1.22).
Authors' conclusions
These findings are equivocal and, although some of the results of individual studies suggest a positive effect of intercessory prayer, the majority do not and the evidence does not support a recommendation either in favour or against the use of intercessory prayer. We are not convinced that further trials of this intervention should be undertaken and would prefer to see any resources available for such a trial used to investigate other questions in health care. So why would you want to do something that is useless? why would you be offended if someone wanted to do something useless if it didn't hurt anyone? Its not about the fact that someone is doing something useless. Its the fact that a government funded school is saying you have to pray (whether you pray or not is your own choice, the contested part of this graduation is that the school is saying there is a time dedicated to a religious activity). If the school said, have a moment of silence, and 99% of the people prayed, this kid wouldn't of said anything. But the fact that the school said, Bow your heads and pray, thats them putting religion into the ceremony as a government body, something that is illegal. I dont see how this is hard to understand, its not a whether you pray or not, even if no one prayed but the school said "bow your heads in prayer", it would still be illegal with no one participating. since when did a prayer at the graduation turn into everyone present is forced to use tax-money to pray? I think you're misinterpreting the situation. alls he had to do was sit quiet for a minute or two while most of the crowd closed their eyes and listened to someone blabber it isn't that much to expect considering he's going to be sitting there listening to people blabber for several hours if his graduation was anything like mine here this is what I did in his situation:I'm sitting in my chair thinking about how bad I want to go home and play starcraft, what's for dinner I'm hungry, that girl is hot "okay bow your head and pray" oh no the end of the world, a public school is praying at my graduation, I feel so lonely and isolated and offended what will I do I have no liberty or freedom oh wait, no I just sort of kept doing what I had been doing being and would continue doing until the ceremony ended ROFL get off your high horses
Ok, this is just my way of thinking.
Public schools are built with public funds, i.e. taxpayer money, i.e. government money.
So using public schools (i.e government property) as a podium for prayer is in essence using public funds to support prayer (to a deity that may/may not exist and if he did exist he's probably a dick for throwing tornados and earthquakes around willy nilly)
So it's technically wrong, no matter how little ill effect it causes.
Just like jaywalking or running a red light.
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On May 27 2011 15:53 Jswizzy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 15:51 EmeraldSparks wrote:On May 27 2011 15:50 Dhalphir wrote:
Its pretty hilarious how many people, the majority apparently from the United States, who never bothered to read their own fucking Bill of Rights. Are you people retarded? its not obvious that prayer in school violates the separation clause americans didn't figure that one one for almost two hundred years Yea it wasn't obvious that we shouldn't own slaves and allow women to vote either. What's your point?
the point is that its possible to have read the bill of rights and not have read engel v vitale
whereas you assumed that everybody who didn't realize that this violated the first amendment had never read the bill of rights
this is a mistaken assumption
On May 27 2011 15:54 johanngrunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 15:46 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 27 2011 15:41 Alventenie wrote:On May 27 2011 15:36 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 27 2011 15:35 johanngrunt wrote:Prayer is useless, or at best no better than chance. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/o/cochrane/clsysrev/articles/CD000368/frame.htmlMain results
Ten studies are included in this review (7646 patients). For the comparison of intercessory prayer plus standard care versus standard care alone, overall there was no clear effect of intercessory prayer on death (6 RCTs, n=3389, random-effects RR 0.73 CI 0.38 to 1.38). Data are heterogeneous (I2 =85%). Excluding one study from the meta-analysis (n=760) decreases this heterogeneity (I2 =44%) and shifts the finding towards the null (5 RCTs, n=2629, random RR 0.97 CI 0.63 to 1.50). For general clinical state there was also no significant difference between groups (5 RCTs, n=2705, RR intermediate or bad outcome 0.98 CI 0.86 to 1.11). Four studies found no effect for re-admission to Coronary Care Unit (4 RCTs, n=2644, RR 1.00 CI 0.77 to 1.30).Two other trials found intercessory prayer had no effect on re-hospitalisation (2 RCTs, n=1155, RR 0.93 CI 0.71 to 1.22).
Authors' conclusions
These findings are equivocal and, although some of the results of individual studies suggest a positive effect of intercessory prayer, the majority do not and the evidence does not support a recommendation either in favour or against the use of intercessory prayer. We are not convinced that further trials of this intervention should be undertaken and would prefer to see any resources available for such a trial used to investigate other questions in health care. So why would you want to do something that is useless? why would you be offended if someone wanted to do something useless if it didn't hurt anyone? Its not about the fact that someone is doing something useless. Its the fact that a government funded school is saying you have to pray (whether you pray or not is your own choice, the contested part of this graduation is that the school is saying there is a time dedicated to a religious activity). If the school said, have a moment of silence, and 99% of the people prayed, this kid wouldn't of said anything. But the fact that the school said, Bow your heads and pray, thats them putting religion into the ceremony as a government body, something that is illegal. I dont see how this is hard to understand, its not a whether you pray or not, even if no one prayed but the school said "bow your heads in prayer", it would still be illegal with no one participating. since when did a prayer at the graduation turn into everyone present is forced to use tax-money to pray? I think you're misinterpreting the situation. alls he had to do was sit quiet for a minute or two while most of the crowd closed their eyes and listened to someone blabber it isn't that much to expect considering he's going to be sitting there listening to people blabber for several hours if his graduation was anything like mine here this is what I did in his situation:I'm sitting in my chair thinking about how bad I want to go home and play starcraft, what's for dinner I'm hungry, that girl is hot "okay bow your head and pray" oh no the end of the world, a public school is praying at my graduation, I feel so lonely and isolated and offended what will I do I have no liberty or freedom oh wait, no I just sort of kept doing what I had been doing being and would continue doing until the ceremony ended ROFL get off your high horses Ok, this is just my way of thinking. Public schools are built with public funds, i.e. taxpayer money, i.e. government money. So using public schools (i.e government property) as a podium for prayer is in essence using public funds to support prayer (to a deity that may/may not exist and if he did exist he's probably a dick for throwing tornados and earthquakes around willy nilly) So it's technically wrong, no matter how little ill effect it causes. Just like jaywalking or running a red light.
but you can hold a prayer session in a public park
so you're wrong
the actual problem is with the government endorsement of religion
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Kid has amazing courage. Speak truth to power.
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On May 27 2011 15:53 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 15:50 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 27 2011 15:48 VIB wrote:On May 27 2011 15:39 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 27 2011 15:35 VIB wrote:
You guys saying he should let them pray because it doesn't hurt anyone.
Do you not understand that public school praying = government promoting religion?
Or do you not understand why government shouldn't promote religion?
Or both? do you not understand that both of those might not be true? Did you consciously just said that there's nothing wrong with government imposing religion on people or did you type "both" by accident? is that what you said? did you say "there is nothing wrong with government imposing religion on people"? or do you not understand that you said two completely different things in your post which my statement was made in reference to Meh, you cannot even read. ¬¬ I give up on you...
fair enough, I feel the same way about you then
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On May 27 2011 15:51 Alventenie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 15:46 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 27 2011 15:41 Alventenie wrote:On May 27 2011 15:36 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 27 2011 15:35 johanngrunt wrote:Prayer is useless, or at best no better than chance. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/o/cochrane/clsysrev/articles/CD000368/frame.htmlMain results
Ten studies are included in this review (7646 patients). For the comparison of intercessory prayer plus standard care versus standard care alone, overall there was no clear effect of intercessory prayer on death (6 RCTs, n=3389, random-effects RR 0.73 CI 0.38 to 1.38). Data are heterogeneous (I2 =85%). Excluding one study from the meta-analysis (n=760) decreases this heterogeneity (I2 =44%) and shifts the finding towards the null (5 RCTs, n=2629, random RR 0.97 CI 0.63 to 1.50). For general clinical state there was also no significant difference between groups (5 RCTs, n=2705, RR intermediate or bad outcome 0.98 CI 0.86 to 1.11). Four studies found no effect for re-admission to Coronary Care Unit (4 RCTs, n=2644, RR 1.00 CI 0.77 to 1.30).Two other trials found intercessory prayer had no effect on re-hospitalisation (2 RCTs, n=1155, RR 0.93 CI 0.71 to 1.22).
Authors' conclusions
These findings are equivocal and, although some of the results of individual studies suggest a positive effect of intercessory prayer, the majority do not and the evidence does not support a recommendation either in favour or against the use of intercessory prayer. We are not convinced that further trials of this intervention should be undertaken and would prefer to see any resources available for such a trial used to investigate other questions in health care. So why would you want to do something that is useless? why would you be offended if someone wanted to do something useless if it didn't hurt anyone? Its not about the fact that someone is doing something useless. Its the fact that a government funded school is saying you have to pray (whether you pray or not is your own choice, the contested part of this graduation is that the school is saying there is a time dedicated to a religious activity). If the school said, have a moment of silence, and 99% of the people prayed, this kid wouldn't of said anything. But the fact that the school said, Bow your heads and pray, thats them putting religion into the ceremony as a government body, something that is illegal. I dont see how this is hard to understand, its not a whether you pray or not, even if no one prayed but the school said "bow your heads in prayer", it would still be illegal with no one participating. since when did a prayer at the graduation turn into everyone present is forced to use tax-money to pray? I think you're misinterpreting the situation. alls he had to do was sit quiet for a minute or two while most of the crowd closed their eyes and listened to someone blabber it isn't that much to expect considering he's going to be sitting there listening to people blabber for several hours if his graduation was anything like mine here this is what I did in his situation:I'm sitting in my chair thinking about how bad I want to go home and play starcraft, what's for dinner I'm hungry, that girl is hot "okay bow your head and pray" I continue doing what I had been doing oh no the end of the world, a public school is praying at my graduation, I feel so lonely and isolated and offended what will I do I have no liberty or freedom ROFL get off your high horses I am not misinterpreting the situation. It is illegal for a school to promote religious activity as an official event. it doesnt matter if its 2 minutes, or 2 hours, or 2 days. It doesn't matter if the actual situation is harmless, its against he law. Its a public school, therefore everyone that goes to the school has already paid for going there through taxes. The law says the school cannot tell/lead students in religious activity, thats all. They could of easily just said, have a moment of silence and nothing would be wrong, but the fact that they are saying bow your head and pray is breaking the law.
that's fair enough, I can concede that is in fact breaking the law, I don't ever believe I tried to argue it wasn't illegal
On May 27 2011 15:54 johanngrunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 15:46 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 27 2011 15:41 Alventenie wrote:On May 27 2011 15:36 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 27 2011 15:35 johanngrunt wrote:Prayer is useless, or at best no better than chance. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/o/cochrane/clsysrev/articles/CD000368/frame.htmlMain results
Ten studies are included in this review (7646 patients). For the comparison of intercessory prayer plus standard care versus standard care alone, overall there was no clear effect of intercessory prayer on death (6 RCTs, n=3389, random-effects RR 0.73 CI 0.38 to 1.38). Data are heterogeneous (I2 =85%). Excluding one study from the meta-analysis (n=760) decreases this heterogeneity (I2 =44%) and shifts the finding towards the null (5 RCTs, n=2629, random RR 0.97 CI 0.63 to 1.50). For general clinical state there was also no significant difference between groups (5 RCTs, n=2705, RR intermediate or bad outcome 0.98 CI 0.86 to 1.11). Four studies found no effect for re-admission to Coronary Care Unit (4 RCTs, n=2644, RR 1.00 CI 0.77 to 1.30).Two other trials found intercessory prayer had no effect on re-hospitalisation (2 RCTs, n=1155, RR 0.93 CI 0.71 to 1.22).
Authors' conclusions
These findings are equivocal and, although some of the results of individual studies suggest a positive effect of intercessory prayer, the majority do not and the evidence does not support a recommendation either in favour or against the use of intercessory prayer. We are not convinced that further trials of this intervention should be undertaken and would prefer to see any resources available for such a trial used to investigate other questions in health care. So why would you want to do something that is useless? why would you be offended if someone wanted to do something useless if it didn't hurt anyone? Its not about the fact that someone is doing something useless. Its the fact that a government funded school is saying you have to pray (whether you pray or not is your own choice, the contested part of this graduation is that the school is saying there is a time dedicated to a religious activity). If the school said, have a moment of silence, and 99% of the people prayed, this kid wouldn't of said anything. But the fact that the school said, Bow your heads and pray, thats them putting religion into the ceremony as a government body, something that is illegal. I dont see how this is hard to understand, its not a whether you pray or not, even if no one prayed but the school said "bow your heads in prayer", it would still be illegal with no one participating. since when did a prayer at the graduation turn into everyone present is forced to use tax-money to pray? I think you're misinterpreting the situation. alls he had to do was sit quiet for a minute or two while most of the crowd closed their eyes and listened to someone blabber it isn't that much to expect considering he's going to be sitting there listening to people blabber for several hours if his graduation was anything like mine here this is what I did in his situation:I'm sitting in my chair thinking about how bad I want to go home and play starcraft, what's for dinner I'm hungry, that girl is hot "okay bow your head and pray" oh no the end of the world, a public school is praying at my graduation, I feel so lonely and isolated and offended what will I do I have no liberty or freedom oh wait, no I just sort of kept doing what I had been doing being and would continue doing until the ceremony ended ROFL get off your high horses Ok, this is just my way of thinking. Public schools are built with public funds, i.e. taxpayer money, i.e. government money. So using public schools (i.e government property) as a podium for prayer is in essence using public funds to support prayer (to a deity that may/may not exist and if he did exist he's probably a dick for throwing tornados and earthquakes around willy nilly) So it's technically wrong, no matter how little ill effect it causes. Just like jaywalking or running a red light.
I was unaware it cost taxpayers money to pray for a couple minutes at a podium when you're going to be at the ceremony for 3-6 hours anyways
also, jaywalking and running a red light are not always wrong
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GGTemplar it is a matter of the government is seen as promoting one religion IE Christianity. This cannot be as the law was written so one religion cannot dominate government and oppress other religions. Therefore all religion is removed from government sponsored things. It might seem innocent but it can lead to more and more domination by that one religion and create a slope that is very slippery. Most of the politicians are already christian anyway. Its more about saying "hey lets keep ALL religion out so no one dominates since they should all be equal" more then any offense being possibly taken.
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On May 27 2011 15:51 EmeraldSparks wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 15:50 Dhalphir wrote:
Its pretty hilarious how many people, the majority apparently from the United States, who never bothered to read their own fucking Bill of Rights. Are you people retarded? its not obvious that prayer in school violates the separation clause So you don't think praying promotes religion?
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On May 27 2011 15:58 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 15:51 Alventenie wrote:On May 27 2011 15:46 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 27 2011 15:41 Alventenie wrote:On May 27 2011 15:36 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 27 2011 15:35 johanngrunt wrote:Prayer is useless, or at best no better than chance. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/o/cochrane/clsysrev/articles/CD000368/frame.htmlMain results
Ten studies are included in this review (7646 patients). For the comparison of intercessory prayer plus standard care versus standard care alone, overall there was no clear effect of intercessory prayer on death (6 RCTs, n=3389, random-effects RR 0.73 CI 0.38 to 1.38). Data are heterogeneous (I2 =85%). Excluding one study from the meta-analysis (n=760) decreases this heterogeneity (I2 =44%) and shifts the finding towards the null (5 RCTs, n=2629, random RR 0.97 CI 0.63 to 1.50). For general clinical state there was also no significant difference between groups (5 RCTs, n=2705, RR intermediate or bad outcome 0.98 CI 0.86 to 1.11). Four studies found no effect for re-admission to Coronary Care Unit (4 RCTs, n=2644, RR 1.00 CI 0.77 to 1.30).Two other trials found intercessory prayer had no effect on re-hospitalisation (2 RCTs, n=1155, RR 0.93 CI 0.71 to 1.22).
Authors' conclusions
These findings are equivocal and, although some of the results of individual studies suggest a positive effect of intercessory prayer, the majority do not and the evidence does not support a recommendation either in favour or against the use of intercessory prayer. We are not convinced that further trials of this intervention should be undertaken and would prefer to see any resources available for such a trial used to investigate other questions in health care. So why would you want to do something that is useless? why would you be offended if someone wanted to do something useless if it didn't hurt anyone? Its not about the fact that someone is doing something useless. Its the fact that a government funded school is saying you have to pray (whether you pray or not is your own choice, the contested part of this graduation is that the school is saying there is a time dedicated to a religious activity). If the school said, have a moment of silence, and 99% of the people prayed, this kid wouldn't of said anything. But the fact that the school said, Bow your heads and pray, thats them putting religion into the ceremony as a government body, something that is illegal. I dont see how this is hard to understand, its not a whether you pray or not, even if no one prayed but the school said "bow your heads in prayer", it would still be illegal with no one participating. since when did a prayer at the graduation turn into everyone present is forced to use tax-money to pray? I think you're misinterpreting the situation. alls he had to do was sit quiet for a minute or two while most of the crowd closed their eyes and listened to someone blabber it isn't that much to expect considering he's going to be sitting there listening to people blabber for several hours if his graduation was anything like mine here this is what I did in his situation:I'm sitting in my chair thinking about how bad I want to go home and play starcraft, what's for dinner I'm hungry, that girl is hot "okay bow your head and pray" I continue doing what I had been doing oh no the end of the world, a public school is praying at my graduation, I feel so lonely and isolated and offended what will I do I have no liberty or freedom ROFL get off your high horses I am not misinterpreting the situation. It is illegal for a school to promote religious activity as an official event. it doesnt matter if its 2 minutes, or 2 hours, or 2 days. It doesn't matter if the actual situation is harmless, its against he law. Its a public school, therefore everyone that goes to the school has already paid for going there through taxes. The law says the school cannot tell/lead students in religious activity, thats all. They could of easily just said, have a moment of silence and nothing would be wrong, but the fact that they are saying bow your head and pray is breaking the law. that's fair enough, I can concede that is in fact breaking the law, I don't ever believe I tried to argue it wasn't illegal Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 15:54 johanngrunt wrote:On May 27 2011 15:46 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 27 2011 15:41 Alventenie wrote:On May 27 2011 15:36 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 27 2011 15:35 johanngrunt wrote:Prayer is useless, or at best no better than chance. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/o/cochrane/clsysrev/articles/CD000368/frame.htmlMain results
Ten studies are included in this review (7646 patients). For the comparison of intercessory prayer plus standard care versus standard care alone, overall there was no clear effect of intercessory prayer on death (6 RCTs, n=3389, random-effects RR 0.73 CI 0.38 to 1.38). Data are heterogeneous (I2 =85%). Excluding one study from the meta-analysis (n=760) decreases this heterogeneity (I2 =44%) and shifts the finding towards the null (5 RCTs, n=2629, random RR 0.97 CI 0.63 to 1.50). For general clinical state there was also no significant difference between groups (5 RCTs, n=2705, RR intermediate or bad outcome 0.98 CI 0.86 to 1.11). Four studies found no effect for re-admission to Coronary Care Unit (4 RCTs, n=2644, RR 1.00 CI 0.77 to 1.30).Two other trials found intercessory prayer had no effect on re-hospitalisation (2 RCTs, n=1155, RR 0.93 CI 0.71 to 1.22).
Authors' conclusions
These findings are equivocal and, although some of the results of individual studies suggest a positive effect of intercessory prayer, the majority do not and the evidence does not support a recommendation either in favour or against the use of intercessory prayer. We are not convinced that further trials of this intervention should be undertaken and would prefer to see any resources available for such a trial used to investigate other questions in health care. So why would you want to do something that is useless? why would you be offended if someone wanted to do something useless if it didn't hurt anyone? Its not about the fact that someone is doing something useless. Its the fact that a government funded school is saying you have to pray (whether you pray or not is your own choice, the contested part of this graduation is that the school is saying there is a time dedicated to a religious activity). If the school said, have a moment of silence, and 99% of the people prayed, this kid wouldn't of said anything. But the fact that the school said, Bow your heads and pray, thats them putting religion into the ceremony as a government body, something that is illegal. I dont see how this is hard to understand, its not a whether you pray or not, even if no one prayed but the school said "bow your heads in prayer", it would still be illegal with no one participating. since when did a prayer at the graduation turn into everyone present is forced to use tax-money to pray? I think you're misinterpreting the situation. alls he had to do was sit quiet for a minute or two while most of the crowd closed their eyes and listened to someone blabber it isn't that much to expect considering he's going to be sitting there listening to people blabber for several hours if his graduation was anything like mine here this is what I did in his situation:I'm sitting in my chair thinking about how bad I want to go home and play starcraft, what's for dinner I'm hungry, that girl is hot "okay bow your head and pray" oh no the end of the world, a public school is praying at my graduation, I feel so lonely and isolated and offended what will I do I have no liberty or freedom oh wait, no I just sort of kept doing what I had been doing being and would continue doing until the ceremony ended ROFL get off your high horses Ok, this is just my way of thinking. Public schools are built with public funds, i.e. taxpayer money, i.e. government money. So using public schools (i.e government property) as a podium for prayer is in essence using public funds to support prayer (to a deity that may/may not exist and if he did exist he's probably a dick for throwing tornados and earthquakes around willy nilly) So it's technically wrong, no matter how little ill effect it causes. Just like jaywalking or running a red light. I was unaware it cost taxpayers money to pray for a couple minutes at a podium when you're going to be at the ceremony for 3-6 hours anyways
I'm curious, if prayer officially endorsed and promoted by a school is alright, how about select bible readings for a few minutes each day, just to get the blood pumping? It's just a few minutes, surely it wouldn't matter considering you'd be at school for at least 6 hours a day anyways.
Government should be above the realm of religion in all matters and should be completely and utterly neutral in such affairs. Read Engel if you're somehow thinking you could be possibly be right.
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On May 27 2011 16:00 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 15:51 EmeraldSparks wrote:On May 27 2011 15:50 Dhalphir wrote:
Its pretty hilarious how many people, the majority apparently from the United States, who never bothered to read their own fucking Bill of Rights. Are you people retarded? its not obvious that prayer in school violates the separation clause So you don't think praying promotes religion?
FORCING people to pray in a PUBLIC school promotes religion.
Prayer is perfectly acceptable as long it's optional, not endorsed by the school, and doesn't affect those that do not want to participate.
Only when it's clearly the school PROMOTING prayer, since prayer PROMOTES the associated religion.
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On May 27 2011 15:59 Slaughter wrote:
GGTemplar it is a matter of the government is seen as promoting one religion IE Christianity. This cannot be as the law was written so one religion cannot dominate government and oppress other religions. Therefore all religion is removed from government sponsored things. It might seem innocent but it can lead to more and more domination by that one religion and create a slope that is very slippery. Most of the politicians are already christian anyway. Its more about saying "hey lets keep ALL religion out so no one dominates since they should all be equal" more then any offense being possibly taken.
*ignores all religious lobbying in government*
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On May 27 2011 15:45 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 15:37 Emperor_Earth wrote:On May 27 2011 15:20 KSMB wrote:On May 27 2011 15:15 atheistaphobe wrote:Social Sciences prove again and again that devout Christians live a healthier life and that prayer has an effect. Absolute horseshit. As an atheist, I'm going to have to side with atheistaphobe here. Humans tend to live longer and be more productive when they are given a focus/direction. Religion has, in many cases, been a very organized way to align one's views/goals/life around. In fact, I would argue that this was the original idea of religion at the tribe level. Get a group of men who need each other for their best chance of survival something separate to believe in together. A bonding experience at a tertiary level that allows for greater trust and harmony when you start running around with weapons... hopefully aimed at animals or rival tribes. I agree that focus and direction are very important, but they certainly aren't exclusive to religion. Furthermore, I feel that the central problem is dogmatically believing things on faith, rather than accepting things on empirical evidence. Those who are religious often believe in supernatural forces and take other things on faith, and these irrational beliefs lead to irrational actions, which harm society. Religion has never actually provided humanity with any knowledge, medicine, or technology. Literally all abstract and concrete advancements have come through fields such as mathematics, logic, and science. If religion never existed, the world certainly wouldn't be worse off.
Please do not put words in my mouth.
I never stated that religion can exclusively provide focus and direction.
Religion has most definitely provided (both directly and indirectly) humanity with knowledge, medicine, and technology. A simple example, religion was the basis of critical thinking in Germany circa Martin Luther era. Luther challenged his people to use a translated German bible rather than rely on a "Father" to preach an archaic and inaccessible Latin version of the Bible. I believe that this earlier and heavily reinforced critical thinking style helps distinguish Germans from their very similar European neighbors.
I also believe that organized religion is good for the layman who doesn't really care what the truth is. Just give him some medium that he can share in a communal sense of belonging and social enrichment that helps to assauge pains of dath of loved ones and gives answers to things he doesn't really have time as he goes about his daily life.
On May 27 2011 15:50 Blisse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 15:37 Emperor_Earth wrote:On May 27 2011 15:20 KSMB wrote:On May 27 2011 15:15 atheistaphobe wrote:Social Sciences prove again and again that devout Christians live a healthier life and that prayer has an effect. Absolute horseshit. As an atheist, I'm going to have to side with atheistaphobe here. Humans tend to live longer and be more productive when they are given a focus/direction. Religion has, in many cases, been a very organized way to align one's views/goals/life around. In fact, I would argue that this was the original idea of religion at the tribe level. Get a group of men who need each other for their best chance of survival something separate to believe in together. A bonding experience at a tertiary level that allows for greater trust and harmony when you start running around with weapons... hopefully aimed at animals or rival tribes. But that's not really arguments for "healthier" is it? I can eat healthy whether I'm atheist or not. There's no statistic that's going to say, atheists eat less vegetables than theists. Of course prayer has an effect. Everything you do has an effect on something else, psychological or real. But it wasn't specified what the effect was, and he's trying to be vague on purpose. There is no religion debate here. It's a case where stupid people got offended that some kid called them out for using government money illegally, then handled the situation stupidly.
I never said that healthier lifestyles are exclusive to religious people. I'm fairly certain, however, without having done my due diligence, that the average devout Christian is healthier physically, mentally, and especially socially that your average devout atheist.
The response you read was in solely in regards to someone else's post. Consider context here and read the preceding pages so that you don't miss out on the evolving debate in your haste to post with assumptive prejudice.
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Geez, basically its stupid as hell to make this Atheist vs Religious
Make it Opinion 1 vs Opinion 2, generalizing for religious people or for athiests doesnt get your anywhere.
The article is supposed to be biased, for you wondering, because it's supposed to raise attention about this subject and then it wont be no good if the writer is objective because then it's a statement that it happend. But the writer was subjective because he had to do some whistle blowing.
I would SO wanna meet one of these really damn religious people. But wait, I wouldn't do it to slap them beat them or insult them. Just to have a talk and hopefully become a bit more knowledgable to why this would ever happen. What's the background for it? Was the kid an idiot before this? Not that him being an idiot would justify it but it would somewhat explain the extreme reaction.
What really got me angry was all those "he is going to hell for this" etc statements in the article. Not only were it there to provoke atheists, since religious people won't mind it at all. But quoting that stuff becomes a BAD base for arguement.
And holy hell, 99% of all people I know off andabout in Denmark this would never happen. I hope it won't atleast, holy hell I wish this wasn't so foreign to me. At some point in the article it sounded like declaring yourself homosexual and atheist caused the same social rejectments. So abstract and weird to think about in my world..
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On May 27 2011 16:00 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 15:51 EmeraldSparks wrote:On May 27 2011 15:50 Dhalphir wrote:
Its pretty hilarious how many people, the majority apparently from the United States, who never bothered to read their own fucking Bill of Rights. Are you people retarded? its not obvious that prayer in school violates the separation clause So you don't think praying promotes religion?
what else exactly would it do ? ^^
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On May 27 2011 15:54 blah_blah wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 15:50 aguy38 wrote:On May 27 2011 15:49 blah_blah wrote:On May 27 2011 15:47 TheLink wrote:
Why aren't we congratulating the parents for standing up for their beliefs through a legal manner?
Actually, it's almost certainly not legal to evict someone by throwing their stuff out onto the porch like that; living at a location for a long period of time (even without paying rent!) gives someone a certain amount of rights. I'm reasonably confident that without a contract it does not. I'm 100% confident that there are many jurisdictions in North America where this is 100% illegal (and contracts have nothing to do with it); I have no clue about Louisiana in particular. You can evict these people, but it requires several steps which take place over a period of a month or more; you can't just drop their stuff on the curb and be in the legal clear.
read up on sharing a residence...I think you might be a little surprised.
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EPT
