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TOloseGT
United States1145 Posts
The shit hit the fan on this one, and I believe his naivete in trusting the school and maybe his "friends" cost him what would otherwise be a pretty great experience. The so-called Christians who ostracized and bullied him are disgusting. I'm surprised not more Christians are denouncing their actions, even if they disagree with the guy. | ||
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johanngrunt
Hong Kong1555 Posts
On May 27 2011 15:36 GGTeMpLaR wrote: why would you be offended if someone wanted to do something useless if it didn't hurt anyone? We are not convinced that further trials of this intervention should be undertaken and would prefer to see any resources available for such a trial used to investigate other questions in health care. Wasting resources. Wasting government money. Doing something illegal. 3 reasons good enough? Remember that there is no benefit gained, and only resources lost. Like walking a group of marines into a sieged tank line. | ||
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GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
On May 27 2011 15:35 VIB wrote: You guys saying he should let them pray because it doesn't hurt anyone. Do you not understand that public school praying = government promoting religion? Or do you not understand why government shouldn't promote religion? Or both? do you not understand that both of those might not be true? | ||
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Ghost151
United States290 Posts
separation of church/state debate and atheist vs. fundie arguments aside, he spat in the faces of an overwhelming majority of one ideology by threatening to blow a whistle to the ACLU about unconstitutional happenings. I'm sure nobody would force HIM to do anything he didn't want to and he's being an instigating little shit in his stance against what is seen as tradition there. Lets look at this for a second. He's in Louisiana...not exactly the most liberal of place in this country. He chooses to stir shit up for no reason, by attacking a tradition, one of the things people are most stubborn about, not by voicing his opinion, but by flat out sending an ultimatum to them. Is he stupid? People need to learn that just because you have a differing opinion does not make it the right one, and especially so when you are in the vast minority. You'd best be prepared to eat a lot of shit coming your way if you wanna say the world ain't flat anymore and everyone else says it is. He did this in about the most tactless way he could in the wrong place and time. Seriously. Do I support him? No. He's a dumbass. Do I support the crazy ass people threatening him or his family for disowning him? No. I see their gross overreaction just as off the handle as his. But the point is, he brought it upon himself. So he'd best be prepared for what hardships just a little restraint or conformity could have saved him. | ||
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Zimmerman
Canada35 Posts
..Or i could just waste 2 minutes and sit through it, as opposed to wasting that time on team liquid later in the day | ||
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WGarrison
United States96 Posts
On May 27 2011 15:30 atheistaphobe wrote: Let me help you out. God exists. Its my word against the atheists. God can show the atheist that he exists, but the atheist can never show me that God does not exist. Logically you are saying everything exists because you can't prove that it doesn't. The gods can prove that multiple gods exist but you cannot prove that only one god exists. | ||
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Zzoram
Canada7115 Posts
On May 27 2011 15:21 419 wrote: Hmm... Can I say that I wouldn't mind? (I really don't see how people are suffering irreparable mental trauma as a result of religious activity...) On another note, I don't see state taxpayers up in arms when their dollars that go to state universities are used to invite religious and humanist speakers. I know the Supreme Court precedents are different, but to what degree does government have to be severed from promoting religion in order not to violate the 1st Amendment?. Its not an easy question. Guest speakers at seminars are not the same since seminar attendence is optional and generally very poor and not a core part of the university experience. Graduation is a much more central part of education, one could argue you spend years working towards that very event, so it's significance is great enough that it's not really optional. The Supreme Court reasons it that way anyways. | ||
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blah_blah
346 Posts
On May 27 2011 15:35 EmeraldSparks wrote: but that's wrong Why don't you elaborate on that statement before you make another flippant lowercase reply where you try to make it sound like you're oh-so-educated on the issue but can't be bothered to explain yourself to the hoi polloi. | ||
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Alventenie
United States2147 Posts
On May 27 2011 15:36 GGTeMpLaR wrote: why would you be offended if someone wanted to do something useless if it didn't hurt anyone? Its not about the fact that someone is doing something useless. Its the fact that a government funded school is saying you have to pray (whether you pray or not is your own choice, the contested part of this graduation is that the school is saying there is a time dedicated to a religious activity). If the school said, have a moment of silence, and 99% of the people prayed, this kid wouldn't of said anything. But the fact that the school said, Bow your heads and pray, thats them putting religion into the ceremony as a government body, something that is illegal. I dont see how this is hard to understand, its not a whether you pray or not, even if no one prayed but the school said "bow your heads in prayer", it would still be illegal with no one participating. | ||
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atheistaphobe
22 Posts
On May 27 2011 15:35 VIB wrote: You guys saying he should let them pray because it doesn't hurt anyone. Do you not understand that public school praying = government promoting religion? Or do you not understand why government shouldn't promote religion? Or both? Do you understand that the majority of people feel that honoring the tradition of prayer is not establishing a religion? Do you understand that most people logically think that acknowledging that people are religious is not the government promoting religion. Do you understand that old judges are stupid biased people who have no logic? | ||
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EmeraldSparks
United States1451 Posts
On May 27 2011 15:41 blah_blah wrote: Why don't you elaborate on that statement before you make another flippant lowercase reply where you try to make it sound like you're oh-so-educated on the issue but can't be bothered to explain yourself to the hoi polloi. you are the one who said that "people who say X would do Y" but i say X i would not do Y therefore you are wrong i explained it to you now are you happy On May 27 2011 15:42 atheistaphobe wrote: Do you understand that the majority of people feel that honoring the tradition of prayer is not establishing a religion? Do you understand that most people logically think that acknowledging that people are religious is not the government promoting religion. Do you understand that old judges are stupid biased people who have no logic? you should probably appeal to the supreme court then again maybe you shouldnt since you know basically nothing about the cause you champion | ||
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blah_blah
346 Posts
On May 27 2011 15:39 Ghost151 wrote:But the point is, he brought it upon himself. So he'd best be prepared for what hardships just a little restraint or conformity could have saved him. I bet you cheer a little on the inside when you hear about immodestly dressed women getting raped or uppity blacks getting beat up. | ||
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Noro
Canada991 Posts
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GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
On May 27 2011 15:39 johanngrunt wrote: Wasting resources. Wasting government money. Doing something illegal. 3 reasons good enough? Remember that there is no benefit gained, and only resources lost. Like walking a group of marines into a sieged tank line. the only resources that should have been lost is the body energy it would require someone to speak for a couple minutes hardly a waste of resources. the real issues in the situation are 1) that this is a law in the first place, 2) that one kid couldn't just get over it, and 3) the communities reaction to the kid | ||
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Echophantom
United States18 Posts
On May 27 2011 15:39 Ghost151 wrote: People need to learn that just because you have a differing opinion does not make it the right one, and especially so when you are in the vast minority. Opinions are irrelevant. The law states that the school should not have held a prayer at its graduation, and there was one. See the Lemon Test for very concrete proof that the law is not vague on this topic. On May 27 2011 15:39 Ghost151 wrote:You'd best be prepared to eat a lot of shit coming your way if you wanna say the world ain't flat anymore and everyone else says it is. So that should stop people from doing it? | ||
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Zzoram
Canada7115 Posts
On May 27 2011 15:26 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Prayer is distressing? Just dont pray and let the people who want to pray, pray? The reaction from the rest of the town is typically retarded as well. People really just suck sometimes, everyone involved in this sound like complete idiots. People are allowed to pray. It's only illegal if the school leads the prayer, through an employee or a representative, as in this case. That's why schools are supposed to have a moment of silence if they want to give people time to pray, so that the school isn't having someone lead the prayer and people can pray if they want during that time. | ||
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EmeraldSparks
United States1451 Posts
On May 27 2011 15:42 blah_blah wrote: I bet you cheer a little on the inside when you hear about immodestly dressed women getting raped or uppity blacks getting beat up. i bet you feel really good when you idiotically ascribe dislikable positions to strangers on the internet | ||
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TOloseGT
United States1145 Posts
On May 27 2011 15:42 atheistaphobe wrote: Do you understand that the majority of people feel that honoring the tradition of prayer is not establishing a religion? While that may be true, in this case, evidence overwhelmingly points to the fact that these people place prayer and religion as one. All you need to do is look at their overreaction to the situation. And based on your posts, I'd wager those old judges have a much deeper understanding of logic than you do. | ||
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MagicGunner
United States78 Posts
He was definitely in the right though and mad props to the atheist community for helping this guy out. I think it's deplorable how the town and his parents acted in response. The townspeople had many other options available to them! I'm sure if the prayer was cancelled they could hold an unofficial prayer before the event outside or something of the sort. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45024 Posts
On May 27 2011 15:37 Emperor_Earth wrote: As an atheist, I'm going to have to side with atheistaphobe here. Humans tend to live longer and be more productive when they are given a focus/direction. Religion has, in many cases, been a very organized way to align one's views/goals/life around. In fact, I would argue that this was the original idea of religion at the tribe level. Get a group of men who need each other for their best chance of survival something separate to believe in together. A bonding experience at a tertiary level that allows for greater trust and harmony when you start running around with weapons... hopefully aimed at animals or rival tribes. I agree that focus and direction are very important, but they certainly aren't exclusive to religion. Furthermore, I feel that the central problem is dogmatically believing things on faith, rather than accepting things on empirical evidence. Those who are religious often believe in supernatural forces and take other things on faith, and these irrational beliefs lead to irrational actions, which harm society. Religion has never actually provided humanity with any knowledge, medicine, or technology. Literally all abstract and concrete advancements have come through fields such as mathematics, logic, and science. If religion never existed, the world certainly wouldn't be worse off. | ||
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