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Feds cracking down on online poker..? - Page 16

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Pokerstars is an online poker site. Pokerstrategy is an educational training site. They are not the same site. The TSL3 is sponsored by pokerstrategy.com.
Demonace34
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States2493 Posts
April 15 2011 22:14 GMT
#301
Maybe I don't understand online poker at all, but why would anyone leave over 1k in there on a daily basis? Just cash out your money once per week, and put in enough to last you the next 2 or whatever. To be honest, virtual money in computer systems scares the shit out of me, so I would never keep more money than I felt I could lose in anything except an FDIC bank. Hope everything works out for you guys, but hopefully this will be a lesson for people to be more careful with the amount of money they have tied up in these sites.
NaNiwa|IdrA|HuK|iNcontroL|Jinro|NonY|Day[9]|PuMa|HerO|MMA|NesTea|NaDa|Boxer|Ryung|
Johnnybb
Profile Joined August 2010
Denmark486 Posts
April 15 2011 22:14 GMT
#302
umad america?

User was temp banned for this post.
Layden
Profile Joined September 2010
United States45 Posts
April 15 2011 22:15 GMT
#303
On April 16 2011 07:14 SonuvBob wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 16 2011 06:57 Modafinil wrote:
On April 16 2011 06:36 SonuvBob wrote:
On April 16 2011 05:52 Modafinil wrote:
On April 16 2011 05:36 SonuvBob wrote:
I guess the main question is whether the US can seize (seems very unlikely) or tie up money in non-US accounts. If not, then non-US players probably don't have much to worry about. I imagine the only money the sites have in US accounts is for their weird payment processing setup.

I think US players are only completely screwed if the sites don't have enough left over after the $3 billion lawsuit. I can't find much info on that, but it's probably split between the 4 sites, and they're all rich as fuck, so I don't think that's a problem. So your money will likely still be there, but actually getting it may be next to impossible (and you might not even be able to play with it either)

But that's just short term. Long term, no more American players I guess?


Can't find any useful info on 2p2 since the site's getting hammered right now. =/

Currently Active Users: 12243 (4076 members and 8167 guests)
View Who's Online
Most users ever online was 12,244, Today at 04:20 PM.


If you mean "non-US accounts" as in "non-US poker accounts", then yeah, that money is just as tied up as if its drug money. It's the subject of a civil asset forfeiture proceeding, which is LITERALLY how the FBI seizes drug money and drug dealer cars. It is the same proceeding. The money is not going anywhere; they don't care who deposited it.

In a few years, you could, in theory get your money back if you're an international player. But it's really unlikely there will be any money left then, after fines, assets forfeited as the result of the actual criminal acts, legal fees, etc. I would just expect it to be a full loss.

Nope, I mean non-US bank accounts. The sites keep the vast majority of the money offshore.


Oh well, in that case, the answer is still "definitely, they can get it". The US seizes/freezes international bank accounts all the time, and have been doing it for years. The bank cooperates or risks losing any assets it has in the US or that touch the US in any way (now or in the future). Or the US government gets your own government to do the seizure itself. Pretty much every country in the developed world (and even plenty that aren't developed, like, say, Panama) is party to legal cooperation treaties, and almost every country will assist in the arrest or deportation of the target of a valid arrest warrant, or in the seizure of assets so requested, or even in the enforcement of a judgment from a foreign court (couple exceptions to the last one, but still).

The exceptions to this are total pariah countries like North Korea and Cuba, and, until recently, Switzerland. But even Switzerland stopped having secret bank accounts and decided to cooperate with the US in its UBS tax fraud investigation.

Hm... I saw a post somewhere saying where either PS's or FTP's stored, but I can't find it now.

Show nested quote +
On April 16 2011 07:03 Jochan wrote:
On April 16 2011 06:55 SonuvBob wrote:
On April 16 2011 06:43 Jochan wrote:
On April 16 2011 06:36 SonuvBob wrote:
On April 16 2011 05:52 Modafinil wrote:
On April 16 2011 05:36 SonuvBob wrote:
I guess the main question is whether the US can seize (seems very unlikely) or tie up money in non-US accounts. If not, then non-US players probably don't have much to worry about. I imagine the only money the sites have in US accounts is for their weird payment processing setup.

I think US players are only completely screwed if the sites don't have enough left over after the $3 billion lawsuit. I can't find much info on that, but it's probably split between the 4 sites, and they're all rich as fuck, so I don't think that's a problem. So your money will likely still be there, but actually getting it may be next to impossible (and you might not even be able to play with it either)

But that's just short term. Long term, no more American players I guess?


Can't find any useful info on 2p2 since the site's getting hammered right now. =/

Currently Active Users: 12243 (4076 members and 8167 guests)
View Who's Online
Most users ever online was 12,244, Today at 04:20 PM.


If you mean "non-US accounts" as in "non-US poker accounts", then yeah, that money is just as tied up as if its drug money. It's the subject of a civil asset forfeiture proceeding, which is LITERALLY how the FBI seizes drug money and drug dealer cars. It is the same proceeding. The money is not going anywhere; they don't care who deposited it.

In a few years, you could, in theory get your money back if you're an international player. But it's really unlikely there will be any money left then, after fines, assets forfeited as the result of the actual criminal acts, legal fees, etc. I would just expect it to be a full loss.

Nope, I mean non-US bank accounts. The sites keep the vast majority of the money offshore.

But "your" money will probably lose on it's value, you wont get 100c on a $ probably. As Tom Dwan twitted http://twitter.com/tom_dwan. It's not like you can sue them if you are American because you expose yourself to criminal lawsuit I guess.
I myself in some kind of miracle got through without much hammering to withdrawal process, only question is will it complete, they have 48h to process the request. Poker sites are like banks, their cash is 95% virtual, just numbers in computer.

I think he means as a conversion rate as of right now. Like you'd transfer $100 to someone on PS for $93 or more on Paypal or whatever. For FTP/Stars, the rate being lower than 100% (or whatever the standard is) is just because the money will likely be held up for a few months, whereas with the other sites there's a real risk of it going poof.

He actually sounds pretty optimistic.

Tom_Dwan Tom Dwan
"@HRRNighthawk: That sounds like you don't think the sites are ever coming back for the US customers?" 85-90% they will. 99.93% will pay

But the real problem is massive panic, they don't have the money "in stock". I myself panicked and requested the withdrawal of all my founds. Large "outflow" of money, plus freezing some of accounts, plus this very very and I mean very bad press will lead to huge problems in my opinion. It's like they are a stock market company which stock plummet, you can buy it out but on "X"c on a $. People are not that patient to wait few months for their money. Those rooms where like giant companies on financial market, they will surely hold up, I am sure of that, but at what cost?

From the PS FAQ:

Show nested quote +
Q: Is my PokerStars account balance used for your operational expenses or is it kept in a separate account?
A: PokerStars is proud that, under special banking arrangements, an amount covering the total of all players' account balances is held in segregated accounts, not used for any operational expenses. These segregated accounts are managed by one of Europe's leading financial services groups. These arrangements ensure that PokerStars can at all times fulfil its obligations towards its players, and provides further reassurance that players' funds are always secure with PokerStars.



Remember that money in players accounts, while not part of operational expenses are still considered assets of the company (until they are paid out) and are fair game to be frozen.
jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
April 15 2011 22:16 GMT
#304
On April 16 2011 07:14 prejler wrote:
umad america?


God, I can't wait to hit my one year anniversary so I can have the satisfaction of clicking the report button...
"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
April 15 2011 22:16 GMT
#305
On April 16 2011 07:14 Demonace34 wrote:
Maybe I don't understand online poker at all, but why would anyone leave over 1k in there on a daily basis? Just cash out your money once per week, and put in enough to last you the next 2 or whatever. To be honest, virtual money in computer systems scares the shit out of me, so I would never keep more money than I felt I could lose in anything except an FDIC bank. Hope everything works out for you guys, but hopefully this will be a lesson for people to be more careful with the amount of money they have tied up in these sites.


Yes.. you don't understand poker at all.


Just cash out your money once per week, and put in enough to last you the next 2 or whatever.


what does this even mean? like, what are you saying?


There are plenty of players who can only play 1 buyin with $1000. And good bankroll management might require, say. 50 buyins. Or even 100. Or more. So to play their stakes they have to have $100,000 online. For higher stakes players it would be higher.
Seide
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States831 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-15 22:18:58
April 15 2011 22:16 GMT
#306
On April 16 2011 07:13 JeeJee wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 16 2011 07:07 Seide wrote:
I'm sad for the players who are getting screwed here.I hope that situation is resolved and you all get your money back without pain.

I'm not sad for the US Gov't showing some balls and going after a business for using loopholes. I am actually kinda happy with that to be honest.

I don't agree that poker is demonized here like it is, but even if its stupid, law is law.


hehe you'd think if the us gov't cared about companies abusing loopholes to screw uncle sam out of tax dollars, they'd go after companies like google, microsoft or facebook (brb swindling sam out of tens of billions of tax dollars every year, np)

Yeah, this is true :/ but its a lot easier to go after something a large proportion of the population views as evil.

There would be a lot of backlash going after a company that pretty much everyone in the developed world relies on for basic solutions for modern living.
One fish, two fish, red fish, blue fish.
Aus.Force
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia1278 Posts
April 15 2011 22:17 GMT
#307
On April 16 2011 07:14 Demonace34 wrote:
Maybe I don't understand online poker at all, but why would anyone leave over 1k in there on a daily basis? Just cash out your money once per week, and put in enough to last you the next 2 or whatever. To be honest, virtual money in computer systems scares the shit out of me, so I would never keep more money than I felt I could lose in anything except an FDIC bank. Hope everything works out for you guys, but hopefully this will be a lesson for people to be more careful with the amount of money they have tied up in these sites.


because 1k is worth nothing to many a player on there. Look up Gus Hanson, Antonio Esfandiari etc and see how much they win/lose in a hand.

1k is like watching bill gates burn a $100 note... he could care less
"no need for cinema, just watch special taktiks" - white-ra
Kurr
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada2338 Posts
April 15 2011 22:18 GMT
#308
On April 16 2011 07:13 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 16 2011 07:05 Kurr wrote:
Some people need the government to hold their hands in these type of matters because they have no self control.


So we need the government to control us for our own good?

This is the philosophy today... thank god I don't have children.


Some people do need the government to control them when it comes to gambling. There are enough examples of people losing everything they own to gambling debts that I don't think I need to elaborate. I'm not trying to demonize poker. I play it once in a while, it's fun. But I have self control. If I lose 10$, I'm not going to play again right away. Some people instead play 20$ more when they lose.

Just an example, but yes, people are that stupid.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ | ┻━┻ ︵╰(°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Slithe
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
United States985 Posts
April 15 2011 22:18 GMT
#309
On April 16 2011 07:02 Modafinil wrote:
I think you guys thinking that the government could just legalize and tax online gambling are forgetting that plenty of American Christians think that gambling is a horrible sin and should be illegal. And plenty of non-Christians think it's socially destructive and want it banned regardless of religious reasons.

There isn't really a lot of support for fully legalized online gambling in America. Maybe 50/50 at best. Kind of like weed.


People are within their rights to have differing moral views. The problem is that those people who don't support gambling and weed are fundamentally misguided in thinking that it's the government's job to impose such restrictions. It is unconstitutional, and they are being distinctly un-American by pushing such legislation.

On April 16 2011 07:05 Kurr wrote:
Still, gambling is a real problem and online it's even harder to stop people from doing so. All the money you win comes from someone else at the end of the day. Some people need the government to hold their hands in these type of matters because they have no self control.


I disagree wholeheartedly here. The government is overstepping it's boundaries in a big way by prohibiting consenting adults from doing what they want. The United States is supposed to be a free country.
Soap
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Brazil1546 Posts
April 15 2011 22:18 GMT
#310
Hell, even I know someone who often plays for six figures. Some people have no idea about the size of the industry.
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
April 15 2011 22:19 GMT
#311
On April 16 2011 06:59 Jibba wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 16 2011 06:43 Soap wrote:
Doesn't help that there are conservative officials that would prefer gambling to be evicted from the world, but the real difficulty is the same as always, the people who are in good faith and just want to play some games are silent.

If they could get a cut, there'd be no qualms about it.

I know people here are extremely invested in poker, but a lot of you would be cheering for the DoJ if it had been one of the other multi-billion dollar companies abusing loopholes and using offshore bank accounts. A dirty business got caught. Some of you are starting to sound like hardcore libertarians, especially the Europeans. :x


Except pokerstars isn't an american business in the first place. What they got caught doing was breaking laws to bypass the roadblocks the U.S. government was intentionally putting in their way. They weren't actually harming anyone, nor taking money from anyone. This is a situation the DOJ wanted to happen, the DOJ was never in the right in the first place they just wanted a cut of what wasn't theirs.
Gryffes
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United Kingdom763 Posts
April 15 2011 22:20 GMT
#312
I'm guessing all the money on Ultimate Bet is effectively gone, all money on FTP is suspect, Stars is imo the only site people will realistically get their money out of whether now or some time in the future.
www.youtube.com/gryffes - Random Gaming Videos.
Aus.Force
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia1278 Posts
April 15 2011 22:20 GMT
#313
On April 16 2011 07:18 Kurr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 16 2011 07:13 jdseemoreglass wrote:
On April 16 2011 07:05 Kurr wrote:
Some people need the government to hold their hands in these type of matters because they have no self control.


So we need the government to control us for our own good?

This is the philosophy today... thank god I don't have children.


Some people do need the government to control them when it comes to gambling. There are enough examples of people losing everything they own to gambling debts that I don't think I need to elaborate. I'm not trying to demonize poker. I play it once in a while, it's fun. But I have self control. If I lose 10$, I'm not going to play again right away. Some people instead play 20$ more when they lose.

Just an example, but yes, people are that stupid.


same can be said for alcohol, drugs, smoking and so on.... regulation these days is out of hand. there's got to be a point where people are responsible for their own actions. but then again, these are the problems of all western countries.
"no need for cinema, just watch special taktiks" - white-ra
Slithe
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
United States985 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-15 22:23:17
April 15 2011 22:22 GMT
#314
On April 16 2011 07:18 Kurr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 16 2011 07:13 jdseemoreglass wrote:
On April 16 2011 07:05 Kurr wrote:
Some people need the government to hold their hands in these type of matters because they have no self control.


So we need the government to control us for our own good?

This is the philosophy today... thank god I don't have children.


Some people do need the government to control them when it comes to gambling. There are enough examples of people losing everything they own to gambling debts that I don't think I need to elaborate. I'm not trying to demonize poker. I play it once in a while, it's fun. But I have self control. If I lose 10$, I'm not going to play again right away. Some people instead play 20$ more when they lose.

Just an example, but yes, people are that stupid.


People have the right to be stupid and do stupid things to themselves. If you believe that it's the government's job to treat the public like children, then you are directly in conflict with the principles of the constitution.
Modafinil
Profile Joined May 2010
United States35 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-15 22:23:44
April 15 2011 22:22 GMT
#315
On April 16 2011 07:06 KimTaeYeon wrote:

For the last time, online poker is NOT illegal in the US
In this instance, govt is targeting the sites for their PAYMENT PROCESSING techniques


For the last time, IT IS.

Q1. What state do you live in?
A1. Whatever state you just said, it has a law against gambling at all, or unlicensed gambling. Doesn't have to be online, just gambling.

Q2. What does that have to do with federal law?
A2. Read UIGEA:

(10) UNLAWFUL INTERNET GAMBLING.
(A) IN GENERAL.—The term 'unlawful Internet gambling' means to place, receive, or otherwise knowingly transmit a bet or wager by any means which involves the use, at least in part, of the Internet where such bet or wager is unlawful under any applicable Federal or State law in the State or Tribal lands in which the bet or wager is initiated, received, or otherwise made.


So as soon as any poker site receives your bet, anyone else's bet, and then transmits that bet to you or anyone else in a state where gambling is illegal, the poker site has violated the UIGEA.

If your state allows high stakes poker with no regulation (it doesn't), then online poker is legal there (it isn't).

Just because there is no explicit federal law that says "online poker is illegal in the US" doesn't mean anything.

Further, a later section states,

§ 5363. Prohibition on acceptance of any financial instrument for unlawful Internet gambling
No person engaged in the business of betting or wagering may knowingly accept, in connection with the participation of another person in unlawful Internet gambling:


and then it proceeds to say "your money" in about 500 different ways.

Online poker is illegal in the United States. End of story. Some sites thought they could get around it and are now paying for that. Some sites were wise enough to get out before they screwed themselves over (like PartyPoker and PacificPoker).
Soap
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Brazil1546 Posts
April 15 2011 22:23 GMT
#316
On April 16 2011 07:19 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 16 2011 06:59 Jibba wrote:
On April 16 2011 06:43 Soap wrote:
Doesn't help that there are conservative officials that would prefer gambling to be evicted from the world, but the real difficulty is the same as always, the people who are in good faith and just want to play some games are silent.

If they could get a cut, there'd be no qualms about it.

I know people here are extremely invested in poker, but a lot of you would be cheering for the DoJ if it had been one of the other multi-billion dollar companies abusing loopholes and using offshore bank accounts. A dirty business got caught. Some of you are starting to sound like hardcore libertarians, especially the Europeans. :x


Except pokerstars isn't an american business in the first place. What they got caught doing was breaking laws to bypass the roadblocks the U.S. government was intentionally putting in their way. They weren't actually harming anyone, nor taking money from anyone. This is a situation the DOJ wanted to happen, the DOJ was never in the right in the first place they just wanted a cut of what wasn't theirs.


They could have played nice and left the US market until a legal framework could be set, as PartyPoker (the biggest room at the time) did. I can't care less if they get sucked out of every cent they have, but to punish the players or the industry itself is outlandish.
ilbh
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Brazil1606 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-15 22:24:40
April 15 2011 22:23 GMT
#317
I don't think it will affect any country other than USA, because these websites have banking accounts all over the world.

well... at least they have it here in Brazil, I can deposit direct to their banking accounts here in the Banco do Brasil (brazilian bank).

I don't understand why they have that old law in the USA against online poker... is it only in the USA?

I mean, poker is not gambling... I don't get it
Part of the inhumanity of the computer is that, once it is competently programmed and working smoothly, it is completely honest.
Demonace34
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States2493 Posts
April 15 2011 22:26 GMT
#318
On April 16 2011 07:16 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 16 2011 07:14 Demonace34 wrote:
Maybe I don't understand online poker at all, but why would anyone leave over 1k in there on a daily basis? Just cash out your money once per week, and put in enough to last you the next 2 or whatever. To be honest, virtual money in computer systems scares the shit out of me, so I would never keep more money than I felt I could lose in anything except an FDIC bank. Hope everything works out for you guys, but hopefully this will be a lesson for people to be more careful with the amount of money they have tied up in these sites.


Yes.. you don't understand poker at all.

Show nested quote +

Just cash out your money once per week, and put in enough to last you the next 2 or whatever.


what does this even mean? like, what are you saying?


There are plenty of players who can only play 1 buyin with $1000. And good bankroll management might require, say. 50 buyins. Or even 100. Or more. So to play their stakes they have to have $100,000 online. For higher stakes players it would be higher.


I was asking a question... I see my newbie friends that play on these sites with 200-400 bucks. I would figure that people would budget how much they put in weekly and only ever put enough in to play for however long they desired/lost or won it all.

Next time I post my opinion or ask a question about a topic in the general forums, I'll be sure to look up more information... good luck on everyone getting their money back.
NaNiwa|IdrA|HuK|iNcontroL|Jinro|NonY|Day[9]|PuMa|HerO|MMA|NesTea|NaDa|Boxer|Ryung|
Ingenol
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States1328 Posts
April 15 2011 22:27 GMT
#319
On April 16 2011 07:18 Kurr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 16 2011 07:13 jdseemoreglass wrote:
On April 16 2011 07:05 Kurr wrote:
Some people need the government to hold their hands in these type of matters because they have no self control.


So we need the government to control us for our own good?

This is the philosophy today... thank god I don't have children.


Some people do need the government to control them when it comes to gambling. There are enough examples of people losing everything they own to gambling debts that I don't think I need to elaborate. I'm not trying to demonize poker. I play it once in a while, it's fun. But I have self control. If I lose 10$, I'm not going to play again right away. Some people instead play 20$ more when they lose.

Just an example, but yes, people are that stupid.

Regardless of whether they cannot control themselves, it is not the role of government to control them. If you believe otherwise, why shouldn't the government deliver prepackaged meals to everyone in order to help people who overeat and thus cannot control themselves?
Layden
Profile Joined September 2010
United States45 Posts
April 15 2011 22:28 GMT
#320
On April 16 2011 07:20 Aus.Force wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 16 2011 07:18 Kurr wrote:
On April 16 2011 07:13 jdseemoreglass wrote:
On April 16 2011 07:05 Kurr wrote:
Some people need the government to hold their hands in these type of matters because they have no self control.


So we need the government to control us for our own good?

This is the philosophy today... thank god I don't have children.


Some people do need the government to control them when it comes to gambling. There are enough examples of people losing everything they own to gambling debts that I don't think I need to elaborate. I'm not trying to demonize poker. I play it once in a while, it's fun. But I have self control. If I lose 10$, I'm not going to play again right away. Some people instead play 20$ more when they lose.

Just an example, but yes, people are that stupid.


same can be said for alcohol, drugs, smoking and so on.... regulation these days is out of hand. there's got to be a point where people are responsible for their own actions. but then again, these are the problems of all western countries.


The philosophy you describe is embodied in America by the Liberitarian Party, which sadly isn't represented in any for at any level of the U.S. Government.

For those of you unfamiliar with U.S. politics, we have a Social Conservative/Small Government party in the Republicans and a Social Liberal/Big Government party in the Democrats. Laws like the UIGEA/DOMA/Prop 8/Drug laws and other social restricting laws are usually passed by both parties but anti-gambling is a republican initiative. Strangely the U.S. electorate tends to be divided 50/50 between both parties. Social politics play a big, sometimes strange role, in the U.S. which is why the budget battle wasn't over money but Abortion.
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