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United States22883 Posts
On April 16 2011 06:43 Soap wrote:
Doesn't help that there are conservative officials that would prefer gambling to be evicted from the world, but the real difficulty is the same as always, the people who are in good faith and just want to play some games are silent.
If they could get a cut, there'd be no qualms about it.
I know people here are extremely invested in poker, but a lot of you would be cheering for the DoJ if it had been one of the other multi-billion dollar companies abusing loopholes and using offshore bank accounts. A dirty business got caught. Some of you are starting to sound like hardcore libertarians, especially the Europeans. :x
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On April 16 2011 06:59 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2011 06:43 Soap wrote:
Doesn't help that there are conservative officials that would prefer gambling to be evicted from the world, but the real difficulty is the same as always, the people who are in good faith and just want to play some games are silent. If they could get a cut, there'd be no qualms about it. I know people here are extremely invested in poker, but a lot of you would be cheering for the DoJ if it had been one of the other multi-billion dollar companies abusing loopholes and using offshore bank accounts. A dirty business got caught.
Yeah, I can't speak for everyone but I am not angry about the fact that they got caught doing illegal things. I am angry that we cant play online poker without having to jump through hoops and break other laws.
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On April 16 2011 06:59 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2011 06:43 Soap wrote:
Doesn't help that there are conservative officials that would prefer gambling to be evicted from the world, but the real difficulty is the same as always, the people who are in good faith and just want to play some games are silent. If they could get a cut, there'd be no qualms about it. I know people here are extremely invested in poker, but a lot of you would be cheering for the DoJ if it had been one of the other multi-billion dollar companies abusing loopholes and using offshore bank accounts. A dirty business got caught. Some of you are starting to sound like hardcore libertarians, especially the Europeans. :x
Loopholes can only be abused if they exist. Why not let people decide on their own how to spend their hard-earned money?
Disclaimer: I'm a hardcore libertarian. Edited for grammar.
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I think you guys thinking that the government could just legalize and tax online gambling are forgetting that plenty of American Christians think that gambling is a horrible sin and should be illegal. And plenty of non-Christians think it's socially destructive and want it banned regardless of religious reasons.
There isn't really a lot of support for fully legalized online gambling in America. Maybe 50/50 at best. Kind of like weed.
Actually, it's worse than I thought. Looks like in Washington state a poll was 85/15 against online gambling. In Iowa a poll went 73/27 against online gambling.
The fact is that most people don't share our view and the government has enacted laws to reflect that. It is unfortunate but it is how democracy works, and the Constitution isn't going to come protect your right to gamble.
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On April 16 2011 06:59 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2011 06:43 Soap wrote:
Doesn't help that there are conservative officials that would prefer gambling to be evicted from the world, but the real difficulty is the same as always, the people who are in good faith and just want to play some games are silent. If they could get a cut, there'd be no qualms about it. I know people here are extremely invested in poker, but a lot of you would be cheering for the DoJ if it had been one of the other multi-billion dollar companies abusing loopholes and using offshore bank accounts. A dirty business got caught.
Yea it's true that the business was playing dirty, and they were wrong in doing so. It just sucks because the reason they did it in the first place was to get around a dirty law. Two wrongs don't make a right, but the government cast the first stone so I'm going to point my middle finger in their direction.
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On April 16 2011 06:55 SonuvBob wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2011 06:43 Jochan wrote:On April 16 2011 06:36 SonuvBob wrote:On April 16 2011 05:52 Modafinil wrote:On April 16 2011 05:36 SonuvBob wrote:I guess the main question is whether the US can seize (seems very unlikely) or tie up money in non-US accounts. If not, then non-US players probably don't have much to worry about. I imagine the only money the sites have in US accounts is for their weird payment processing setup. I think US players are only completely screwed if the sites don't have enough left over after the $3 billion lawsuit. I can't find much info on that, but it's probably split between the 4 sites, and they're all rich as fuck, so I don't think that's a problem. So your money will likely still be there, but actually getting it may be next to impossible (and you might not even be able to play with it either) But that's just short term. Long term, no more American players I guess? Can't find any useful info on 2p2 since the site's getting hammered right now. =/ Currently Active Users: 12243 (4076 members and 8167 guests)
View Who's Online
Most users ever online was 12,244, Today at 04:20 PM. If you mean "non-US accounts" as in "non-US poker accounts", then yeah, that money is just as tied up as if its drug money. It's the subject of a civil asset forfeiture proceeding, which is LITERALLY how the FBI seizes drug money and drug dealer cars. It is the same proceeding. The money is not going anywhere; they don't care who deposited it. In a few years, you could, in theory get your money back if you're an international player. But it's really unlikely there will be any money left then, after fines, assets forfeited as the result of the actual criminal acts, legal fees, etc. I would just expect it to be a full loss. Nope, I mean non-US bank accounts. The sites keep the vast majority of the money offshore. But "your" money will probably lose on it's value, you wont get 100c on a $ probably. As Tom Dwan twitted http://twitter.com/tom_dwan. It's not like you can sue them if you are American because you expose yourself to criminal lawsuit I guess. I myself in some kind of miracle got through without much hammering to withdrawal process, only question is will it complete, they have 48h to process the request. Poker sites are like banks, their cash is 95% virtual, just numbers in computer. I think he means as a conversion rate as of right now. Like you'd transfer $100 to someone on PS for $93 or more on Paypal or whatever. For FTP/Stars, the rate being lower than 100% (or whatever the standard is) is just because the money will likely be held up for a few months, whereas with the other sites there's a real risk of it going poof. He actually sounds pretty optimistic. Show nested quote +Tom_Dwan Tom Dwan
"@HRRNighthawk: That sounds like you don't think the sites are ever coming back for the US customers?" 85-90% they will. 99.93% will pay
But the real problem is massive panic, they don't have the money "in stock". I myself panicked and requested the withdrawal of all my founds. Large "outflow" of money, plus freezing some of accounts, plus this very very and I mean very bad press will lead to huge problems in my opinion. It's like they are a stock market company which stock plummet, you can buy it out but on "X"c on a $. People are not that patient to wait few months for their money. Those rooms where like giant companies on financial market, they will surely hold up, I am sure of that, but at what cost?
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I have no problems with this and completely agree with Jibba. It's harsh but the law was there from the start.
I feel sorry for the people that will lose thousands of dollars but it was a risk they took. I once thought of playing poker online and I'm glad I never went through with it, wow.
Still, gambling is a real problem and online it's even harder to stop people from doing so. All the money you win comes from someone else at the end of the day. Some people need the government to hold their hands in these type of matters because they have no self control.
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I'm not into this scene but can you not withdraw your money at any point of your choosing? Personally I have a Paypal account that I make sure to withdraw from immediately when it gets a little high.
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With all due respect and a lot of sympathy on a personal level, those who were leaving significant amounts of money sitting in such accounts were simply asking for trouble. It is extremely poor financial management to leave funds in such legally shady acounts which, obviously, are not covered by any protective law on bank deposits.
I guess you can see it as part of the risk of playing poker, though. Just deal with the loss.
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So THIS is what the FBI were doing with those counter-terrorism dollars...
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On April 16 2011 06:55 SonuvBob wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2011 06:43 Jochan wrote:On April 16 2011 06:36 SonuvBob wrote:On April 16 2011 05:52 Modafinil wrote:On April 16 2011 05:36 SonuvBob wrote:I guess the main question is whether the US can seize (seems very unlikely) or tie up money in non-US accounts. If not, then non-US players probably don't have much to worry about. I imagine the only money the sites have in US accounts is for their weird payment processing setup. I think US players are only completely screwed if the sites don't have enough left over after the $3 billion lawsuit. I can't find much info on that, but it's probably split between the 4 sites, and they're all rich as fuck, so I don't think that's a problem. So your money will likely still be there, but actually getting it may be next to impossible (and you might not even be able to play with it either) But that's just short term. Long term, no more American players I guess? Can't find any useful info on 2p2 since the site's getting hammered right now. =/ Currently Active Users: 12243 (4076 members and 8167 guests)
View Who's Online
Most users ever online was 12,244, Today at 04:20 PM. If you mean "non-US accounts" as in "non-US poker accounts", then yeah, that money is just as tied up as if its drug money. It's the subject of a civil asset forfeiture proceeding, which is LITERALLY how the FBI seizes drug money and drug dealer cars. It is the same proceeding. The money is not going anywhere; they don't care who deposited it. In a few years, you could, in theory get your money back if you're an international player. But it's really unlikely there will be any money left then, after fines, assets forfeited as the result of the actual criminal acts, legal fees, etc. I would just expect it to be a full loss. Nope, I mean non-US bank accounts. The sites keep the vast majority of the money offshore. But "your" money will probably lose on it's value, you wont get 100c on a $ probably. As Tom Dwan twitted http://twitter.com/tom_dwan. It's not like you can sue them if you are American because you expose yourself to criminal lawsuit I guess. I myself in some kind of miracle got through without much hammering to withdrawal process, only question is will it complete, they have 48h to process the request. Poker sites are like banks, their cash is 95% virtual, just numbers in computer. I think he means as a conversion rate as of right now. Like you'd transfer $100 to someone on PS for $93 or more on Paypal or whatever. For FTP/Stars, the rate being lower than 100% (or whatever the standard is) is just because the money will likely be held up for a few months, whereas with the other sites there's a real risk of it going poof. He actually sounds pretty optimistic. Show nested quote +Tom_Dwan Tom Dwan
"@HRRNighthawk: That sounds like you don't think the sites are ever coming back for the US customers?" 85-90% they will. 99.93% will pay
you got it right
also people who don't have anything to contribute//don't know what they are talking about should stop misleading people with bad information
For the last time, online poker is NOT illegal in the US
In this instance, govt is targeting the sites for their PAYMENT PROCESSING techniques
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O my gawd fuck our lives ;(
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I'm sad for the players who are getting screwed here.I hope that situation is resolved and you all get your money back without pain.
I'm not sad for the US Gov't showing some balls and going after a business for using loopholes. I am actually kinda happy with that to be honest.
I don't agree that poker is demonized here like it is, but even if its stupid, law is law.
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YEAH!! I am so happy I cashed out most of my money a couple weeks ago! Only got about $200 left in my account... sucks to lose, but it is better than losing it all 
Sorry to the rest of you.
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On April 16 2011 07:05 Kurr wrote:
Some people need the government to hold their hands in these type of matters because they have no self control.
So we need the government to control us for our own good?
This is the philosophy today... thank god I don't have children.
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Wow this is huge. I play on PS but i got like ~100$ which is nothing compared with others . I dont understand this but only US citizens are fucked or everyone else if they somehow shut down the major poker rooms?
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On April 16 2011 07:07 Seide wrote:
I'm sad for the players who are getting screwed here.I hope that situation is resolved and you all get your money back without pain.
I'm not sad for the US Gov't showing some balls and going after a business for using loopholes. I am actually kinda happy with that to be honest.
I don't agree that poker is demonized here like it is, but even if its stupid, law is law.
hehe you'd think if the us gov't cared about companies abusing loopholes to screw uncle sam out of tax dollars, they'd go after companies like google, microsoft or facebook (brb swindling sam out of tens of billions of tax dollars every year, np)
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On April 16 2011 06:59 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2011 06:43 Soap wrote:
Doesn't help that there are conservative officials that would prefer gambling to be evicted from the world, but the real difficulty is the same as always, the people who are in good faith and just want to play some games are silent. If they could get a cut, there'd be no qualms about it. I know people here are extremely invested in poker, but a lot of you would be cheering for the DoJ if it had been one of the other multi-billion dollar companies abusing loopholes and using offshore bank accounts. A dirty business got caught. Some of you are starting to sound like hardcore libertarians, especially the Europeans. :x
It's not being hardcore libertarians to say that customers (who are not involve in this fraud) must recover their money; It's just common sens...
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On April 16 2011 06:57 Modafinil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2011 06:36 SonuvBob wrote:On April 16 2011 05:52 Modafinil wrote:On April 16 2011 05:36 SonuvBob wrote:I guess the main question is whether the US can seize (seems very unlikely) or tie up money in non-US accounts. If not, then non-US players probably don't have much to worry about. I imagine the only money the sites have in US accounts is for their weird payment processing setup. I think US players are only completely screwed if the sites don't have enough left over after the $3 billion lawsuit. I can't find much info on that, but it's probably split between the 4 sites, and they're all rich as fuck, so I don't think that's a problem. So your money will likely still be there, but actually getting it may be next to impossible (and you might not even be able to play with it either) But that's just short term. Long term, no more American players I guess? Can't find any useful info on 2p2 since the site's getting hammered right now. =/ Currently Active Users: 12243 (4076 members and 8167 guests)
View Who's Online
Most users ever online was 12,244, Today at 04:20 PM. If you mean "non-US accounts" as in "non-US poker accounts", then yeah, that money is just as tied up as if its drug money. It's the subject of a civil asset forfeiture proceeding, which is LITERALLY how the FBI seizes drug money and drug dealer cars. It is the same proceeding. The money is not going anywhere; they don't care who deposited it. In a few years, you could, in theory get your money back if you're an international player. But it's really unlikely there will be any money left then, after fines, assets forfeited as the result of the actual criminal acts, legal fees, etc. I would just expect it to be a full loss. Nope, I mean non-US bank accounts. The sites keep the vast majority of the money offshore. Oh well, in that case, the answer is still "definitely, they can get it". The US seizes/freezes international bank accounts all the time, and have been doing it for years. The bank cooperates or risks losing any assets it has in the US or that touch the US in any way (now or in the future). Or the US government gets your own government to do the seizure itself. Pretty much every country in the developed world (and even plenty that aren't developed, like, say, Panama) is party to legal cooperation treaties, and almost every country will assist in the arrest or deportation of the target of a valid arrest warrant, or in the seizure of assets so requested, or even in the enforcement of a judgment from a foreign court (couple exceptions to the last one, but still). The exceptions to this are total pariah countries like North Korea and Cuba, and, until recently, Switzerland. But even Switzerland stopped having secret bank accounts and decided to cooperate with the US in its UBS tax fraud investigation.
Hm... I saw a post somewhere saying where either PS's or FTP's stored, but I can't find it now.
On April 16 2011 07:03 Jochan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2011 06:55 SonuvBob wrote:On April 16 2011 06:43 Jochan wrote:On April 16 2011 06:36 SonuvBob wrote:On April 16 2011 05:52 Modafinil wrote:On April 16 2011 05:36 SonuvBob wrote:I guess the main question is whether the US can seize (seems very unlikely) or tie up money in non-US accounts. If not, then non-US players probably don't have much to worry about. I imagine the only money the sites have in US accounts is for their weird payment processing setup. I think US players are only completely screwed if the sites don't have enough left over after the $3 billion lawsuit. I can't find much info on that, but it's probably split between the 4 sites, and they're all rich as fuck, so I don't think that's a problem. So your money will likely still be there, but actually getting it may be next to impossible (and you might not even be able to play with it either) But that's just short term. Long term, no more American players I guess? Can't find any useful info on 2p2 since the site's getting hammered right now. =/ Currently Active Users: 12243 (4076 members and 8167 guests)
View Who's Online
Most users ever online was 12,244, Today at 04:20 PM. If you mean "non-US accounts" as in "non-US poker accounts", then yeah, that money is just as tied up as if its drug money. It's the subject of a civil asset forfeiture proceeding, which is LITERALLY how the FBI seizes drug money and drug dealer cars. It is the same proceeding. The money is not going anywhere; they don't care who deposited it. In a few years, you could, in theory get your money back if you're an international player. But it's really unlikely there will be any money left then, after fines, assets forfeited as the result of the actual criminal acts, legal fees, etc. I would just expect it to be a full loss. Nope, I mean non-US bank accounts. The sites keep the vast majority of the money offshore. But "your" money will probably lose on it's value, you wont get 100c on a $ probably. As Tom Dwan twitted http://twitter.com/tom_dwan. It's not like you can sue them if you are American because you expose yourself to criminal lawsuit I guess. I myself in some kind of miracle got through without much hammering to withdrawal process, only question is will it complete, they have 48h to process the request. Poker sites are like banks, their cash is 95% virtual, just numbers in computer. I think he means as a conversion rate as of right now. Like you'd transfer $100 to someone on PS for $93 or more on Paypal or whatever. For FTP/Stars, the rate being lower than 100% (or whatever the standard is) is just because the money will likely be held up for a few months, whereas with the other sites there's a real risk of it going poof. He actually sounds pretty optimistic. Tom_Dwan Tom Dwan
"@HRRNighthawk: That sounds like you don't think the sites are ever coming back for the US customers?" 85-90% they will. 99.93% will pay But the real problem is massive panic, they don't have the money "in stock". I myself panicked and requested the withdrawal of all my founds. Large "outflow" of money, plus freezing some of accounts, plus this very very and I mean very bad press will lead to huge problems in my opinion. It's like they are a stock market company which stock plummet, you can buy it out but on "X"c on a $. People are not that patient to wait few months for their money. Those rooms where like giant companies on financial market, they will surely hold up, I am sure of that, but at what cost?
From the PS FAQ:
Q: Is my PokerStars account balance used for your operational expenses or is it kept in a separate account?
A: PokerStars is proud that, under special banking arrangements, an amount covering the total of all players' account balances is held in segregated accounts, not used for any operational expenses. These segregated accounts are managed by one of Europe's leading financial services groups. These arrangements ensure that PokerStars can at all times fulfil its obligations towards its players, and provides further reassurance that players' funds are always secure with PokerStars.
So they have the money, but who knows what'll happen to it.
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I think it's fair to say that something of this magnitude was eventual in the United States. When UIGEA was passed in 2005 it severly crippled the industry's ability to pay OUT (not in) to U.S. custoners. About 6-8 weeks after the passage, everything went back to pretty much normal, but nobody really knew how they were skirting banks, and now they may have (aledgedly) been committing fraud to do so.
If you are a US player it's a shame that your money is likely gone but that really was a known risk after UIGEA. I played a lot between 2002 and 2005 and when UIGEA I took a majority of my money off all the sites for various reasons. I havn't played since about 2009, but i think it's safe to say that this may spell the deathknell for online poker in the US for some time.
If you are outside the US, I highly suggest CASHING OUT AS FAST AS POSSIBLE. Pay whatever fees you need to in order to get the money in your hands ASAP. This may only affect US players, but in fact it affects the entire business. The US government cannot legally sieze funds in non-Us territories, but they can ASK and if the bank that has your deposit does any type of business in the U.S. (or is a subsidiary of a larger U.S. bank holding company) they will likely comply.
I hate to sound like chicken little, but this is really judgement day for the online poker industry.
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