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On April 10 2011 15:11 Ghost151 wrote:
example
lets say you do both think alike and you both DO use the same opening move. Depending on the effect of this opening, one of you is going to hit the other, get hit, mutually harm each other, or nullify each others' attack. Based on just these outcomes of the first move alone, there is A LOT of room for rethinking an approach, based on the inherent design of decision making processes.
it's like pitting 2 macro oriented very good zerg players against each other, telling both of them to 6pool the other guy without scouting, and when they both do it and realize that they did the exact same move, they'll each react differently(or not and just try to move to high macro)
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On April 10 2011 07:32 Wonderballs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 07:28 Synapze wrote:
I can throw a punch and hit slightly different a thousand times in the same spot. Anyone who assumes fighting your clone would make it identical is just an idiot lol. First of all, this is all hypothetical, does being right in this situation make you a better person? Second, YOU would be throwing the same punch at YOU at the same TIME. What you described is successively different punches at different times.... aiming for the same spot.
The fact is that your brain will never allow your body to hit where you want 100%. If you could, people would never miss a home run in baseball etc. And no, your coordination would not be identical.
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Do you know you're the original, and does your clone know that he's the clone. That could influence your decisions.
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Actually, if you mirror two insane AIs on Starcraft 2 with the same races, they have the same builds at first, but then they start changing it up. One of them eventually wins.
I think something like this would happen, the one who makes a superior move wins.
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we would both throw right hooks and knock each other out
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Your scenario takes out the fact that the processes that go on in the human body on a microscopic level are largely random. While on the surface we exhibit a reasonable and ordered machine, on a cellular level stuff is just flying around. Even if you managed to clone two identical beings at that second, they would quickly diverge over time even if nothing happened.
If you ignore that fact, then you also have the case where because they are not in the exact same location, they will perceive the room differently, and be spatially different. Both may think "aim for left cheek" but one may be slightly more left than the other and will hit differently etc, hence one will react more than the other, and from there it also rapidly diverges.
If you even ignore that case, you have the case that logically if whatever you do, will be identically mirrored in every way by your opponent, and you are identical, there is no reason to fight. In fact, it makes no sense to fight. If you are indeed identical in every way as such to invalidate the previous two points, then you would either a) both decide to punch for the face, and both lose, or b) spend a bunch of time attempting to punch before immediately moving into a block, then back to a punch, never actually hitting the opponent.
Basically, a fight with an identical clone would be boring as hell to watch.
Edit: Logically, the only way to win would be to cause a desync in order to try and one up your opponent. Just get a coin, flip it, if it's heads punch, otherwise don't. Both of you do it, but you'll pretty quickly get different results, causing divergence. If your hypothetical removes all randomness from the human system you can simply reintroduce it, and have a normal fight. Once you desync it once, the rest is dynamic from there because all stimuli has changed.
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Fighting your clone would not be a stalemate. After the first engagement, the positions would change and each person would react according to their body position. For myself, being a wrestler, I would circle and look for an opening while trying to set the clone up for some sort of take down. My clone would most likely do the same, but we wouldn't move identically. It is hard for one person to do the same exact thing the same exact way in every way twice. There will always be some sort of variation. As a result fighting your clone would not be fighting a mirror of yourself, it would be fighting someone with the same training, body type and experience as yourself.
Also, this reminded me of this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clone_Saga
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Umm... we would make peace and we would switch off days at university, then we would ladder 2v2s all day.
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If you were fighting given zero restrictions you would.
1. Kill Each Other (double snapped neck ect)
2. Eternally tie
3. Agree to peace since you would probably be able to reason with yourself.
Not really any other options. Exact Mirror fight or peaceful solution.
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I honestly think that even if i was to fight my clone (even if he didnt look like me and i had no clue of his intentions, if he just acts like me) that we wouldnt trade a single punch. We would both start with a boxing pose, strafe right as is usual in southpaw, and slowly stop moving and lower our hands one by one and try to talk, i do know that both of us would use the same words and even laugh at the same time, but after we figure whats going on we would both back down.
If the door gets closed, both of us would be volutarily to die, therefore its hard to consider which one of would actually commit "suicide", but neither of us would try to do anything else than outplay our opponent with a counters and feints until we run out of stamina and lose our balance. If you were agressive type i think both of you would get serious injuries, whether it would be wrestling, boxing or mma type of fight.
Nonetheless, i think the fight would either take so long that you both starve, or both of you fight until you have serious wounds and cant continue
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If me and my clone got in a fight, I doubt we would exactly mirror eachother. Yeah we might have the same exact DNA, but in no way does that mean we're going to think exactly alike.
That said, I'd kick his ass.
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So many people reading halfway through the OP post and then posting, or just not being able to fully think through how an excact clone would work out. Assuming everything is excactly the same, there would be no difference. You would for example not be able to comunicate, An example of what an attempt to comunicate would be something like this : you would start out comunicating at excactly the same time, saying excactly the same thing, and interupting eachother, then you would wait excactly the same amount of time, before speaking up again and interupting eachother again, eventualy you would probably figure out that you would just have to speak at the same time , but you would be saying the excact same thing to eachother and learning the same things and reacting the same way all in all leading nowhere.
The only argument really in the OP is if there is anything truly random at a molecular level\in this universe at all.Which is something (as far as I know) Nobody really knows. There have been things that are seemingly random, but that could very well stem from our lack of knowledge on the subject. Most random things we see in life is artificially random, take throwing a dice for example, you might think its random what number it lands on, but obviously what actually decides this is a) the dice b) the stuff it is landing on and c) your throw. d) Air\anything else in the enviorment that might effect it, so it is not truly random.
If i were to go with my hunch I would say nothing is truly random and assuming there is no way out of the room, and we actually have to fight, we just fight untill exhaustion recover and re-fight untill exhaustion excactly mirroring eachother untill we die of lack of water.
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I would decide that fighting my clone is a stupid idea, and my clone would do the same, resulting in a painless tie.
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We wouldn't fight because we're too lazy to do that.
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We would fight. And we would both get knocked out. And then we'd go and play a bo7 as random on starcraft.
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On April 11 2011 13:57 Akari Takai wrote:
Although me and my clone wouldn't fight (the possibilities of working together to create mischief and havoc would be totally epic), I honestly think that it could go either way.
I mean, let's pretend we duplicated IMMvP and forced him to play against himself. Very rarely do Starcraft 2 matches end up as actual ties, even among players at almost equal levels and with almost equal knowledge bases. So I think that more than likely one of us would defeat the other. And I think it would come up to chance a lot. Eventually one of us is going to get the other in a slightly disadvantageous position and things will snowball from there.
This is not a fight between 2 people who are at equal levels though, nor 2 people with almost equal knowledge bases. Nor does it have any of the random elements of a starcraft match (mainly positon/map disadvantages I Guess.) It is 2 people with the EXCACT in the excact same enviorment, everything is excactly the same, As soon as you get yourself in a slightly disadvantagenous position, your excact clone would mirror this perfectly and get himself in the excact same disadvantageous position so things cant snowball from anywhere. This is obviously only in theory as atleast for now replicating this in any way is impossible, but if you are going to start out assuming it is not an excact clone and there are differences that will cause 1 to fail where the other does not, then you are not answering OPs question.
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I like the idea of challenging myself to a game of SC. I'd offrace Zerg and 6pool.
If I won, I'd hang my head in shame, because I can't defend a 6pool. If I lost, I'd hang my head in shame, because 6pooling was stupid. If we both 6pooled, I'd high five my clone and then we'd play 2v2s.
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EPT
