EPTAnd that happens every other fortnight nowadays albeit in different forms.
Iraq & Syrian Civil Wars - Page 303
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Please guys, stay on topic. This thread is about the situation in Iraq and Syria. | ||
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frontliner2
Netherlands844 Posts
And that happens every other fortnight nowadays albeit in different forms. | ||
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NasusAndDraven
359 Posts
On July 26 2015 18:11 frontliner2 wrote: Erdogan wants to rid himself (the Sultan) of the Kurdish question. He disguises his military campaign as anti terrorist (anti PKK AND ISIS). In fact it is anti Kurd and a little bit of anti ISIS. IN fact he will just support the next Sharia Imposing bastard faction he can which is any branch of the FSA, in this case Jaysh Al Islam. I don't have to look it up, I'll bet your ass they are Sharia driven. 1. Turkish Military get's rid of defenses of YPG/PKK and bombs the populace as well to instill panic 2. Islamist factions supported by Turkey (and thus NATO) will do the dirty work (killing and expelling the Kurdish populace). 3. There will be no Kurdish question anymore. Erdogan = win. Kurds were doing too much good against Islamists factions and Erdogan is pissed off now. This post is so ignorant. Its like you dont even exactly know Erdogans motives or who is on whos side in Syria. 1. There are over 10million kurds in Turkey. How is killing syrian kurds going to get rid of the kurdish question? 2. Sure if Islamist factions such as FSA take over in Syria, they would kill a hefty aumont of kurds as a resut, but it would also mean even more kurds fleeing into Turkey as hundreds of thousands of them have already been capable of doing. 3. Turkey can not take out YPG just like that in their present state. They are stronger than ever taking out ISIS bases left and right, because see 4. 4. Over the past year, most of the NATO (USA) support has gone for the YPG in Syria and PKK in Iraq, not the islamist rebel groups. Also FSA has had a truce with the kurds since 2013, even figthing in some battles alongside against the ISIS. How can you believe NATO has a plan to kill the kurds using the FSA as a proxy? So yeah stop believing that conspiracy that Erdogand "disguises his military campaign" as something else. And yeahI know there has been a lot of anti Erdogand propaganda lately in western media so you might have your jimmies rustled over him, but you should form your feelings based on facts, not form your facts based feelings. What really happening is this. Turkey is continuing their campaing against the PKK as they have for decades, because the PKK is a terrorist organization targeting the turkish population, and Turkey is resuming their attacks on ISIS after a 2year pause because ISIS has been more hostile lately. | ||
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REDBLUEGREEN
Germany1904 Posts
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NasusAndDraven
359 Posts
On July 26 2015 21:31 REDBLUEGREEN wrote: I want to add that according to a PKK statement the 2 police officers were not chosen randomly. The PKK said they were cooperating with ISIS in the Suruc attack. I know that is what they claim, but I really dont believe the PKK has sufficient intel for such claims. Obviously they did not forsee the attack comming, so they did not see officers cooperating with ISIS. The PKK must have had their own secret investigators that could trace the attacker all the way back to the officers. How on earth? Even if it was true it would not be justified. Kinda like how Israel takes justice to their own hands in forgein nations and kills targets with letter bombs. No matter who is the target it still is a terrorist attack. | ||
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REDBLUEGREEN
Germany1904 Posts
On July 26 2015 21:41 NasusAndDraven wrote: I know that is what they claim, but I really dont believe the PKK has sufficient intel for such claims. Obviously they did not forsee the attack comming, so they did not see officers cooperating with ISIS. The PKK must have had their own secret investigators that could trace the attacker all the way back to the officers. How on earth? Even if it was true it would not be justified. Kinda like how Israel takes justice to their own hands in forgein nations and kills targets with letter bombs. No matter who is the target it still is a terrorist attack. That must not necessarily be the case. They could have intelligence of an incoming attack and possible persons involved in the planning but with no specific information for the target and thus failed to prevent it. This was the case in 9/11 and I think many more terrorist attacks. If they knew the police officers were involved I don't think you can call this a terrorist attack. It's goal was not to terrorize the public and neither to bring about political change but simply a revenge killing. If it is justified or not depends on which side you sympathize with I guess. | ||
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Nezgar
Germany535 Posts
On July 26 2015 21:30 NasusAndDraven wrote: 1. There are over 10million kurds in Turkey. How is killing syrian kurds going to get rid of the kurdish question? 2. Sure if Islamist factions such as FSA take over in Syria, they would kill a hefty aumont of kurds as a resut, but it would also mean even more kurds fleeing into Turkey as hundreds of thousands of them have already been capable of doing. What really happening is this. Turkey is continuing their campaing against the PKK as they have for decades, because the PKK is a terrorist organization targeting the turkish population, and Turkey is resuming their attacks on ISIS after a 2year pause because ISIS has been more hostile lately. 1. Killing kurds seems like a pretty solid way of getting rid of the kurdish question... 2. How is that not a bad thing? You seem awfully OK with genocide and driving the kurdish people into a nation that they, for quite a long time now, try to be independent from. Are you seriously surprised that the kurds want independence from a nation that has a long history of genocide and oppression towards their minorities? That is now, more than ever, brimming with nationalism? There 40 million kurds in the region, let them have their own state and identity. And lumping PKK/YPG together with ISIS is a frightening rhetoric if you ask me... | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On July 26 2015 23:13 Nezgar wrote: 1. Killing kurds seems like a pretty solid way of getting rid of the kurdish question... 2. How is that not a bad thing? You seem awfully OK with genocide and driving the kurdish people into a nation that they, for quite a long time now, try to be independent from. 1. Of course killing a few dozen (even thousands) does not get you rid of the kurdish question. If anything it aggrevates the problem. 2. Where does he say he is ok with that, let alone ok with a genocide? As a Turk sympathizer he probably hates that there are millions of refugees coming to Turkey. His point is that it sucks for Turkey, not that it is a good thing. | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10131 Posts
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lastpuritan
United States540 Posts
On July 25 2015 21:25 frontliner2 wrote: Turks hate Kurds. Turks (AKP/Erdogan) actually like Nusra and ISIS. Turks say they bomb ISIS and PKK but in fact they will show bomb some ISIS targets (abandoned mostly) and will fuck over all Kurds they can. This is Turkey anno 2015. Then what are these? Demirtas is the leader of Kurdish party in Turkey. Davutoğlu told journalists during a press conference in Ankara that Barzani had expressed his "solidarity" with the operation when he spoke to him for about an hour. "Mr. Barzani expressed his solidarity with Turkey again, noting that Turkey's operations against ISIL [the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant] and the PKK are both justified," Turkish PM said, adding the Kurdish leader also reiterated that he was ready to "contribute to all kinds of cooperation in the fight against terrorism." I have more questions: 1- Let's say Turkey is an evil country that has a population of ultra nationalistic / religious bigot Turks still vote for Sultan Erdogan and they are ultra hostile to Kurds, simply because they are kurdish, not turkish. Why the hell US is still backing them up instead of liberating it? 2- Why PKK is listed as a terrorist organisation but PYD is not? 3- Whenever we talk about Turks - Kurds, I notice that all the Turco bashers are Europeans e.g Germany and France and they insta-use genocide card as if it happened yesterday. After seeing there is dozens of proof that some EU countries were funding PKK while US drone-fighting them, i started to think of a possibility that some EU nations still holds grudge against Turkey (like the grudge they hold against each other  ) and they simply dont want it to be equally powerful. For example a Turkey in EU would hurt German seats in EU parliament and maybe even funds because Turkish population is as crowd as Germany. Does this sound stupid? 4- Thumbs up for Kurdish Autonomy in Turkey! But when it comes to getting a free state, do you seriously think a citizen or a town is capable of setting itself free from a state? Yeah if they want it, it is their right to govern themselves and that is called municipal administration. It seems Turkish Kurdistan (don't know how to name it) is full of with Turks and Kurds live next to each other, towns are mixed, victims of Suruc attack were mixed. Is it possible to cleanse those Turks and Kurds who dont want to live in separate state of off Turkish Kurdistan? Is it legal? Edit: I did not get a proper answer to my prev question but Internet says PKK's last request is rejected by Turkey continuously: Ocalan's release from prison. Then PKK decided to attack again and Turkey is pleased to react. And this time nobody (Demirtas, Iraqi Kurds, PYD) gives a damn about PKK and their Ocalan fetish. | ||
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NasusAndDraven
359 Posts
On July 27 2015 02:19 Godwrath wrote: Sometimes i wonder what would had happened if others supported Obama to bomb the crap out of the Syrian regime back in the day, and end the Syrian civil war as swift as possible. Learning history helps to find answers to questions such as this one. If you don't remember, Russia promised to intervene in Syria were that to happen, also Iran and Lebanon would have put more effort into the fight most likely. (Now if that was not the case, I can assure you with 100% certainty that Obama would have indeed bombed the crap out of Assad.) You can read some articles on the Afghan war, Korean war and Vietnam war if you are interested in how it would have progressed form there. On July 27 2015 02:27 lastpuritan wrote: 1- Let's say Turkey is an evil country that has a population of ultra nationalistic / religious bigot Turks still vote for Sultan Erdogan and they are ultra hostile to Kurds, simply because they are kurdish, not turkish. Why the hell US is still backing them up instead of liberating it? Im not saying Turkey is anything like that, but I would like to point out how hilariously naive you are if you think facts such as those weigh in USAs decision making on who to liberate or back up. | ||
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Alcathous
Netherlands219 Posts
On July 27 2015 02:19 Godwrath wrote: Sometimes i wonder what would had happened if others supported Obama to bomb the crap out of the Syrian regime back in the day, and end the Syrian civil war as swift as possible. Bombing the regime so it collapses creates a power vacuum. On the short term it would lead to more civil war. It may shorten the whole conflict in the case that doing nothing would mean an eventually collapse of Assad anyway. Or, chance the course of history and make Assad regime collapse when it would have recovered otherwise and you fracture the country. The only thing one can really do is give weapons to the most moderate faction, read:the faction you want to win. Radicals getting weapons for Iran and Saudi Arabia vs moderates getting no weapons from the US/Europe, I think this changed how the conflict unfolded a lot. But the best course is to not support tyrannical regimes in the first place and to make sure no weapons can enter the country when conflict does arise, and just keep calling for negotiations and keep talking about moderate values and human rights. It won't do much, but better than random bombing and less risky than just picking a side at the start of it all. Even with 'good intentions', which can be debated because in the end each country acts out of self-interest only, you can make it all worse much more easily than you can make it better. Once you start transporting arm or start bombing, you are escalating a conflict. What Turkey is doing makes even less sense. They are bombing both sides of the conflict. So silly. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5644 Posts
On July 27 2015 02:19 Godwrath wrote: Sometimes i wonder what would had happened if others supported Obama to bomb the crap out of the Syrian regime back in the day, and end the Syrian civil war as swift as possible. The problem is that even the West seemed rather divided when it comes to deciding which side is the lesser evil. | ||
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Yoav
United States1874 Posts
On July 27 2015 02:27 lastpuritan wrote: I have more questions: 1- Let's say Turkey is an evil country that has a population of ultra nationalistic / religious bigot Turks still vote for Sultan Erdogan and they are ultra hostile to Kurds, simply because they are kurdish, not turkish. Why the hell US is still backing them up instead of liberating it? 2- Why PKK is listed as a terrorist organisation but PYD is not? 3- Whenever we talk about Turks - Kurds, I notice that all the Turco bashers are Europeans e.g Germany and France and they insta-use genocide card as if it happened yesterday. After seeing there is dozens of proof that some EU countries were funding PKK while US drone-fighting them, i started to think of a possibility that some EU nations still holds grudge against Turkey (like the grudge they hold against each other ) and they simply dont want it to be equally powerful. For example a Turkey in EU would hurt German seats in EU parliament and maybe even funds because Turkish population is as crowd as Germany. Does this sound stupid? 4- Thumbs up for Kurdish Autonomy in Turkey! But when it comes to getting a free state, do you seriously think a citizen or a town is capable of setting itself free from a state? Yeah if they want it, it is their right to govern themselves and that is called municipal administration. It seems Turkish Kurdistan (don't know how to name it) is full of with Turks and Kurds live next to each other, towns are mixed, victims of Suruc attack were mixed. Is it possible to cleanse those Turks and Kurds who dont want to live in separate state of off Turkish Kurdistan? Is it legal? 1. Because we don't want to needlessly piss of a strategically-located country of 78 million people that is a NATO member and could fuck with Israel is a serious way if it were inclined to. We're not going to war for Kurdish autonomy, even if they deserve it. So we'll keep trying to work with the Turks and hope this whole last 15 years or so has been a bad dream for Turkey from which they will eventually come to their senses. 2. They're an enemy of a NATO allied country that has targeted civilians before. Doesn't mean their cause doesn't have merit. It's not dissimilar to the Palestinian question. Yes, they should probably get their own state. Yes, they have done some bad shit in the past. The only difference is... 3. I'm an American who generally admires Islam and who doesn't give two shits about Germany's dominance over Europe. But yes, there are obviously racist or anti-Muslim Europeans who oppose Turkey for those reasons. That said, using this as an argument is dangerously close to ad hominem. 4. There already is a functioning Kurdish state! Unlike Palestine, the Kurds have clearly shown they are capable of self-governance. A Turkish-breakaway Kurdish region would just join up with Iraqi Kurdistan and be administered by them while they got everything worked out. As for the issue of mixed ethnic areas, yeah, that's a logistical issue. You'd have to do voting on a local level to allow the border to reflect the desires of the residents as much as possible, and have a fair buyout scheme for people who wished to transfer from one state to the other. This kind of thing is not without precedent, and we've practiced a lot in the last few decades with how to do this right and wrong. | ||
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ggrrg
Bulgaria2716 Posts
On July 27 2015 02:27 lastpuritan wrote: 1- Let's say Turkey is an evil country that has a population of ultra nationalistic / religious bigot Turks still vote for Sultan Erdogan and they are ultra hostile to Kurds, simply because they are kurdish, not turkish. Why the hell US is still backing them up instead of liberating it? Maybe, in contrast to US government claims, their political decisions are actually not solely based on moral beliefs? 3- Whenever we talk about Turks - Kurds, I notice that all the Turco bashers are Europeans e.g Germany and France and they insta-use genocide card as if it happened yesterday. After seeing there is dozens of proof that some EU countries were funding PKK while US drone-fighting them, i started to think of a possibility that some EU nations still holds grudge against Turkey (like the grudge they hold against each other ) and they simply dont want it to be equally powerful. For example a Turkey in EU would hurt German seats in EU parliament and maybe even funds because Turkish population is as crowd as Germany. Does this sound stupid? Probably, because there is a significant Turkish population in those contries - especially Germany - and people have first hand experience on the predominant opinion of Turks about Kurds. Living in Germany and having met a lot of Turks who at one point or another have voiced there opinion about Kurds, I can tell you that so far every single one of them have shown a condescending opinion about Kurds - ranging from rolling eyes when mentioning the subject to blatantly calling all Kurds savages. Obviously, the PKK, which is basically a terrorist organization, and its actions ever since its inception do help to foster that point of view... As far as the genocide card is concerned, I'd say that at least in Germany, a country that is publically admitting and dealing with its historical atrocities, there is no understanding whatsoever for a country that is denying responsibility for any atrocities and trying to whitewash its history. 4- Thumbs up for Kurdish Autonomy in Turkey! But when it comes to getting a free state, do you seriously think a citizen or a town is capable of setting itself free from a state? Yeah if they want it, it is their right to govern themselves and that is called municipal administration. It seems Turkish Kurdistan (don't know how to name it) is full of with Turks and Kurds live next to each other, towns are mixed, victims of Suruc attack were mixed. Is it possible to cleanse those Turks and Kurds who dont want to live in separate state of off Turkish Kurdistan? Is it legal? People seem to make out this subject to be very simple: just give Kurds independent state. A more realistic idea would be to improve relations between Turks and Kurds by exerting the political and social will within the country for a better coexistense. The recent elections in which the HDP gained a historical result, seemed to hint that at least socially there is improved will to change the Kurds' standing in Turkey, but I fear that the Suruc bombing, the plain retarded actions of the PKK and the inevitable reaction from the Turkish government have set that progress decades behind... edit: As for the issue of mixed ethnic areas, yeah, that's a logistical issue. You'd have to do voting on a local level to allow the border to reflect the desires of the residents as much as possible, and have a fair buyout scheme for people who wished to transfer from one state to the other. This kind of thing is not without precedent, and we've practiced a lot in the last few decades with how to do this right and wrong. There are however some examples of this going extremely badly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India–Bangladesh_enclaves#List_of_enclaves_and_exclaves Including the world's phenomenon of a third order enclave!!! | ||
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NasusAndDraven
359 Posts
On July 27 2015 03:48 Alcathous wrote: What Turkey is doing makes even less sense. They are bombing both sides of the conflict. So silly. Both sides? By any definition the Syrian civil war has atleast 4 sides. FSA and YPG have now made peace, but still. If you want to support militaristicly one side, you have to attack the 2 or 3 other factions which are also fighting against each other, this is what all of big supporters do. For example, Lebanon and Iran are fighting against FSA and ISIS to support Assad. Turkey against Kurds and ISIS, and supporting FSA. The "coalition" is figthing against ISIS while providing arms to kurds and FSA, while israel has been bombing Assads forces. | ||
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Yoav
United States1874 Posts
On July 27 2015 05:06 ggrrg wrote: There are however some examples of this going extremely badly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India–Bangladesh_enclaves#List_of_enclaves_and_exclaves Including the world's phenomenon of a third order enclave!!! Yeah. Like I said, we've gotten it "right and wrong." For whatever its worth, that border is getting straightened out at the end of this month, so even that one's not irreconcilable. And the Indian examples are generally a list of the most disastrous cases. | ||
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REDBLUEGREEN
Germany1904 Posts
I think this is the long dreamed of invasion of Syria by US and Turkey under the label of fighting ISIS. Davutoglu denied this weekend that any Turkish forces will enter Syria though. On the other hand in the Turkish false flag leaks their are stating that the deployment of ground forces should not be announced beforehand and rumors of an upcoming Turkish ground invasion have been around since early this year when Turkey had talks with Saudi Arabia. If ISIS are removed from the area there will be a power vacuum and I think Turkey is afraid that the Kurds will gain power over the area and a unified Kurdish area stretching from Iraq to the mediterranean is a horror scenario for them. Thus the shelling of YPG positions and Jaysh al-Islam's announced support for Turkey against ISIS and PKK (and by extension most likely also YPG). I think the recent escalation of tensions with the PKK are mainly done for internal reasons to gain votes from the nationalists and weaken the HDP below 10% again before the upcoming snap elections. | ||
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KT_Elwood
Germany1040 Posts
When the world did nothing the kurdish soldiers and PKK fought those goatf**ckers of ISIS. Now Erdogan bombs his domestic rivals. Turkey even supported islamists crossing the turkish border to join IS. Now IS is getting too close. | ||
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lastpuritan
United States540 Posts
On July 27 2015 04:48 Yoav wrote: 3. I'm an American who generally admires Islam and who doesn't give two shits about Germany's dominance over Europe. But yes, there are obviously racist or anti-Muslim Europeans who oppose Turkey for those reasons. That said, using this as an argument is dangerously close to ad hominem. I wasn't thinking about Islam or a possible culture clash but economic probabilities may well be the hidden core reasons of this ongoing Turkish - German tension. Also Turks will get voting weight in European Parliament as well as the budgetary dominion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_population Matthias Wissman, member of the Bundestag since 1976, former cabinet minister (1993-98), and chair of the EU committee in the Bundestag (2002-), fears that the EU will become ungovernable (cited in “CDU/CSU setzen . . .”): We have nothing against Turkey but we are of the opinion that the Union is at risk of breaking if one stretches it too far. When one makes it so big that it is no longer governable, can no longer be efficient. Turkey would soon be the largest country in the Union and would completely change the architecture of the EU. On July 27 2015 04:48 Yoav wrote: 4. There already is a functioning Kurdish state! Unlike Palestine, the Kurds have clearly shown they are capable of self-governance. A Turkish-breakaway Kurdish region would just join up with Iraqi Kurdistan and be administered by them while they got everything worked out. Iraqi Kurds are way more different than any other Kurdish society in terms of the language, daily life and ideological issues. Western Kurds (in Turkey) speaks mostly Turkish and adopted a different life-style due to Turkey's slightly developed conjuncture, thus they have huge holdings, lands, properties, mixed families in Western Turkey such as Istanbul. That would be a huge loss when kurdish nation is established, saying this, unlike Iraqi Kurdistan there is huge Turkish population in Kurdish provinces in Eastern Turkey, almost %50 - %60 in the most important towns. This is the other side of the coin where you should think the rights of those Turks who are possible relatives of local Kurds and Turks in Western Turkey, same economical implications again, Turkish private investments in Kurdish provinces etc. I'm not even thinking state investments yet, those will take the topic somewhere else, what state would be ok to lose such land + tax income + population to Iraq or a freshly founded nation? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_Republic_of_Ararat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Mahabad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Kurdistan On July 27 2015 04:48 Yoav wrote: As for the issue of mixed ethnic areas, yeah, that's a logistical issue. You'd have to do voting on a local level to allow the border to reflect the desires of the residents as much as possible, and have a fair buyout scheme for people who wished to transfer from one state to the other. This kind of thing is not without precedent, and we've practiced a lot in the last few decades with how to do this right and wrong. Kurds achieved a strong ground with their Democratic Party (HDP) in Turkey, which brought the Kurdish cause to the center stage, getting many Turkish votes, it is an observable fact with time that Turkish Kurds don't want a separate nation within Turkey but regain their civil rights under an autonomy. Its rationally correct considering Turkey's possible EU membership and beneficial citizenship standards compared a fresh nation state, which -imo- will eventually fail since the "model" is outdated. With internet limited field knowledge, my solution would be a non hostile Autonomy of Kurdistan within Turkey after Kurdish language declared second official language of Turkey and maybe no more Turkish Republic but a United nations of Turkey on our maps. Applause to Barzani! Concerning the attitude of Turkey and the Kurdistan Workers Party, we do not represent Turkey’s politics and we are not responsible for the PKK’s politics. What we can offer is to help get them together to settle their issues through dialogue and mutual understanding. “I want to say something for history,” Barzani said. “We saw a positive attitude and steps being taken by Turkey’s government, but unfortunately, some parties became too arrogant. “Many times we sent messages to the PKK to remain patient and wait, because the peace process takes time and is not an easy process. We told them that the killing of two policemen will not solve any problems with Turkey.“The best opportunity of recent times is solving issues through negotiation, election, education and the pen,” Barzani urged. | ||
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KT_Elwood
Germany1040 Posts
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