EPTthe french are throwing money down the drain.
Iraq & Syrian Civil Wars - Page 226
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Please guys, stay on topic. This thread is about the situation in Iraq and Syria. | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
the french are throwing money down the drain. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On September 13 2014 00:07 nunez wrote: idiotic to get involved, it will erode democracy by growing the cancerous mic. the french are throwing money down the drain. Our president is an idiot anyway, and he likes war because it's the only thing he doesn't get instantly criticized for. I don't even understand how he can decide by himself what France will do in regard to Iraq considering he is at 12 % approval rating and that people are so upset they go as far as paying planes to drag advertising asking for his demission. | ||
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Snakehips.
United States12 Posts
On September 11 2014 13:44 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The Iraqi military is probably the most organized it's been since 2003 and improving considerably. Now it is a military not for Maliki's power-mongering, but for Iraq. It's actually being armed now, is backed by thousands of Kurdish and Shiite militiamen,, the Sunni militias have by-and-large turned on ISIS, and the ONLY advantage ISIS holds is that they hide amongst civilians, making fighting extremely difficult. Here's three things that need to happen: 1) The new Iraqi regime can't be as bad as Maliki's (although I'm pretty sure this is impossible. His sectarian policies and matching brutality are responsible for a lot of the shitstorm in Iraq. I'm surprised he hasn't been tried and executed). 2) Iranian influence in Iraqi politics has to be eliminated. It has been the Claymore sword in the side of Iraq's struggle for stability and peace, and needs to be removed. 3) Once ISIS in Iraq is eliminated, the Kurdish and Shiite militia radicals must not explode. There have been hints at this from both groups due to Shiite militia's atrocities and Kurdish land-grabbing, but to ensure a stable Iraq, both groups must also end fighting once ISIS is defeated. If they do not, there will be more violence, and I'm sure they'll get swift retribution from an Iraqi regime backed by many Western and Mideastern nations. Even the US is a lot closer to the Iraqi government that it is to the KRG, and I'm sure the US would condemn further violence by Shiite or Kurdish militias once ISIS is defeated in Iraq. Let me tell you something. From what it looks like, your knowledge of Iraqi history only goes back to 2003. That's okay, that's what I'm here for. Let me tell you of a time when there was much peace in Iraq, it was apparently taboo to even solicit and discuss people's religious denominations and even many marriages were between Sunnis and Shiites, and a society that was far more secular than it is now. When insane dolts like Muqtada al-Sadr would have been spat on if not arrested for such extremism. Even most of the founders and members of the Baath party were Shiites, and no one really cared, because Iraq used to have a firm national identity. Minority religions like Christians were well-protected and respected. Then the US came in and created an entirely sectarian order, creating and encouraging the formation of tons of sectarian-based organizations and requiring a sectarian identification. Then we disbanded the entire military and executed and fled into hiding all the competent politicians in Iraq, most of whom were entirely innocent, and they were put in a fight for their lives. Then Maliki made all of that much, much worse. This is why Iraq is the way it is today. But do you understand why I'm proposing something different? Because the good was how Iraq was before. If they did it for 100s of years (there's so many Shiites in Iraq due to the Safavid Persian empire, which made Iran and its territories, which included much of modern Iraq, Shiite, bet you didn't know that either) and including the 20th century, I'm sure they can do it again. My desire, as you put it, is based in reality that already existed. Seriously, please don't try to lecture me if you don't know the history. This was the reality. The fact that you don't know this reality that characterizes modern Iraq all the way up until 2003 makes this discussion one-sided and superficial. It's like someone who wonders why there's so few Jews in Europe compared to before because he's completely oblivious to the Holocaust and mass emigration. That is how most people are, including myself when I was the definition of MURICA, regarding Iraq. Of course I'm a special case: I had the advantage of being extremely studious with history and sciences etc., coming from a hometown stock full of Iraqi Christians, and other experiences that put me into direct contact with Iraqi society and history. So maybe I shouldn't be so harsh on ignorance? Do you realize before the monarchy was overthrown, Iraq was a lot more Islamic than it was in the 60s-90s, if not even now? And yet it became pretty damn secular. I'm sure it can be done again. And unlike in the 60s, Iraq has literally the entire Western world pushing for it to become secular and united again. The Iranian influence is really the primary thing preventing it, and in the coming years, I don't even know if that'll be an issue considering they lost their #1 pawn. Iran is one of the world's biggest oil producing countries and we are jilting them. Iraq was one of the biggest, and we obliterated them. Russia is an energy giant and advanced European state but we hate them because they're a very powerful nation we've rivaled and hated since 1945. The US interest is less in "who has oil" (because a shitload of countries do) and a lot more to do with submissive regimes. The Saudi regime is submissive to us. That's what makes all the difference. Otherwise, we'd shitlist him like we shitlisted Iran. Do you see what I'm saying? We will support terrorist regimes if they are submissive and cooperative, and it is entirely disgusting and traitorous, but that is politics. We are an imperialistic nation. That's how politics works. But despite the fact we have shit relations with Iran, we are doing very little to undermine their support for terrorist organizations... removing Iranian support for terrorism and radicals from the board would be a colossal improvement in Iraq and the region. Never read as biased and untrue post about Iraq from someone on TL. I'm curios what's your nationality/religion? Now China we actually need. Seriously, they're literally the world's super abundant slave labor for insanely cheap manufacturing. Of course, our political relations with them are pretty bad, but they're willing to give us extremely cheap labor, so it's a good opportunity. I think they're a special case, because for example, we don't have bad political relations with Saudi Arabia. I think China's the only country we have shit political relations with that we have strong economic ties to, because it is so unimaginably beneficial for us. No other country comes close. | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
On September 13 2014 00:30 WhiteDog wrote: Our president is an idiot anyway, and he likes war because it's the only thing he doesn't get instantly criticized for. I don't even understand how he can decide by himself what France will do in regard to Iraq considering he is at 12 % approval rating and that people are so upset they go as far as paying planes to drag advertising asking for his demission. a sorry state of affairs! | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
When Deniz Sahin’s ex-husband phoned out of the blue to say he wanted to see their two young children, the call came as a welcome surprise. The father, a former alcoholic, who had kicked his addiction and turned instead to fundamentalist Islam, had shown little interest in his children for the past year, but she thought they missed him. “I told him not to be more than two hours,” says 28-year-old Deniz, who weeps silently as she pores over photographs of Halil Ibrahim, 4, and Esma Sena, 10. After their father, Sadik, picked them up from their home in Kazan, near Turkey’s capital Ankara, in April, she never saw them again. In one of the pictures, which were sent by Sadik a week after their disappearance, a smiling Halil Ibrahim clutches a pistol. The index finger of his other hand is held skyward in a gesture associated with the Middle East’s most feared armed group: the so-called Islamic State, also known by its former acronym Isis. The children now live with their jihadist father in Syria’s Isis-controlled Raqqa province. They are among an unknown number of Turks – potentially in the thousands – being abducted or lured into Syria and Iraq either to populate Isis’ self-declared caliphate or to fight in its bloody sectarian war. Source | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
I assume the quoted piece below is your reply to my post. I was confused for a second why you were quoting my whole post, until I took a look at it and saw something different. Never read as biased and untrue post about Iraq from someone on TL. I'm curios what's your nationality/religion? heh. You don't even know how to use quoting properly, and you're telling people that they're biased and untrue? Please enlighten me, because by replying with an accusatory sentence with nothing to follow is pretty stupid. My nationality is American (white if you want to get ethnic) and my religion is [technically] Christian but I can't say I'm too religious. What about you? I honestly have a good idea, but I'd like to hear you say it. However, the fact that you believe this has any relevance to what I posted is even sillier than your one-liner lol, but the fact of the matter is I'm just your "standard" American, just a lot more intelligent and knowledgeable than the average, I guess. EDIT: Wow, I replied to a 4 post account. 2 posts were begging to be added to small SC cups, and 2 were troll posts. I need to avoid replying to idiots like this on TL. | ||
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pls no ty
86 Posts
ISIS is an American puppet and a perception management project, in order to establish a Kurdish nation? Why i think like this: There are some rumors in the area that Turkey is helping (arming, providing info etc) ISIS. We heard some turkish words in some killing videos, they say Turkish agents are in the ISIS. An American ally, Turkey, helping ISIS (maybe just because of ISIS are sunni) and America letting this happen. No shit. Couple of months ago, in the leaked conversations of Turkish Generals and Davutoglu and head of the National Intelligence Organization, they were talking about a false flag operation in order to declare war against ISIS. Who leaked it? Still unknown. Nowadays i started to think that they leaked it on purpose. Because today, we know the fact that Turkey declared as a nation, they wont provide army force and join any operations against ISIS. We needed a solid argument for a Kurdish Nation, and now we have. Pesmerge, PKK, and Kurdish forces in Syria reunited and setup a new army which is funded by Germany and Czech Republic nowadays. Whats gonna happend to that army after ISIS is defeated? Will they give their weapons back to Germany? Just to inform you, Turkey made peace with PKK 1.5 years ago and head of the PKK (öcalan) is working with Turkish Intelligent Organization.. (good timing for peace ha?) Those weapons will secure the independence of western Iraq and will protect Kurds from incoming attacks from Iraq. Why do we need a nation named Kurdistan? Russia is a still threat even if Turkey is a powerful ally in the region, Syria, Iran, Irak must be controlled with a bumber force. End of the story. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
On September 13 2014 08:33 pls no ty wrote: What if i tell you: ISIS is an American puppet and a perception management project, in order to establish a Kurdish nation? Why i think like this: There are some rumors in the area that Turkey is helping (arming, providing info etc) ISIS. We heard some turkish words in some killing videos, they say Turkish agents are in the ISIS. An American ally, Turkey, helping ISIS (maybe just because of ISIS are sunni) and America letting this happen. No shit. Couple of months ago, in the leaked conversations of Turkish Generals and Davutoglu and head of the National Intelligence Organization, they were talking about a false flag operation in order to declare war against ISIS. Who leaked it? Still unknown. Nowadays i started to think that they leaked it on purpose. Because today, we know the fact that Turkey declared as a nation, they wont provide army force and join any operations against ISIS. We needed a solid argument for a Kurdish Nation, and now we have. Pesmerge, PKK, and Kurdish forces in Syria reunited and setup a new army which is funded by Germany and Czech Republic nowadays. Whats gonna happend to that army after ISIS is defeated? Will they give their weapons back to Germany? Just to inform you, Turkey made peace with PKK 1.5 years ago and head of the PKK (öcalan) is working with Turkish Intelligent Organization.. (good timing for peace ha?) Those weapons will secure the independence of western Iraq and will protect Kurds from incoming attacks from Iraq. Why do we need a nation named Kurdistan? Russia is a still threat even if Turkey is a powerful ally in the region, Syria, Iran, Irak must be controlled with a bumber force. End of the story. No? The US has no interest in a Kurdish state, and at best there's theoretical prospects regarding only Iran, in order to destabilize Iran. The US is quite aware that a Kurdish state will cause a clusterfuck situation, especially one that allies Turkey and Iraq will have to deal with. Almost since 2003, Iraqi Kurdistan region took a backseat to Baghdad as far as US political interests went, and no one gives a care about the Kurdish regions in the other 3 countries. The Iraqi Kurds' purpose for the US was as political leverage against Saddam Hussein. Who cares about a very backward society run by a de facto family-run monarchy/dictatorship that, unlike places like Saudi Arabia, has no interest in any relations with anyone unless it advances their own and only their own political goals? Haven't you seen lately that the US is against independent Kurdish anything? In Iraq for example, the US is 100% for a united country. In Syria, it's made no comment on the Kurds there being independent either. Without considering a variety of other downsides, an independent Kurdish state would probably devolve into mass civil war pretty quickly and I'm sure all 4 host nations, Turkey most of all, would move in to control it. It's an extremely tribalistic and aggressive society, and there are very deep divides, even among Iraqi Kurds. Kurdish leaders in all 4 countries use the independence propaganda to the extreme just to keep their own people from killing off each other, and focusing their hatred on what appears to be everyone else in the world. The more important consideration is that such an aim of Kurdistan as you propose will mean that, assuming the Kurds haven't killed themselves off already, Turkey will go to war against insurgent Kurds, and the US will of course back a NATO ally and of course its new 21st century ally in Baghdad. The US is in no position to help Iranian Kurds without full-scale war against Iran, and such a war is something even Bush shied away from despite extremely belligerent rhetoric. However, Turkey alone will take care of the Kurds with Uncle Sam's blessings. And when did Russia become a threat to the Mideast? It's on very good relations with most of the countries there. The only place the US would find it strategically fit to support an "independent Kurdistan" is in Iran to destabilize Iran, as the Iranians are an enemy of the US. But to be fair, not having the Turkish Kurdish region be a part of Turkey anymore would probably be a good thing for Turkey. Really, many of the bad things various people at the political level have to say about Turkey and Turkish society is actually from the Kurdish region, such as female genital mutilation (especially terrible in Iraqi Kurdistan), honor killings, torture, and all sorts of things you'd only expect from the 7th century Arabian peninsula that don't exist otherwise in the rest of Turkey. I'm sure Turkish entrance to the EU would be accelerated significantly if it didn't have the least 'modern' bloc of its population anymore. But to conclude: 1) I don't see why the US has any reason for a state of Kurdistan outside of Iran. Two of the Kurdish host nations are close US allies, and the US has expressed little to no interest in Syria's Kurds. 2) I don't see how you came up with the conspiracy that the US directly and knowingly created ISIS and ISIS is a US puppet (we're blasting them to bits, we don't usually do that to our puppets). How in the heck do you find a random video with 95 views? | ||
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pls no ty
86 Posts
In a short speak, Turkey made a lot of trading contracts with Iraqi Kurds without the permission of Iraq. Not only oil, even today if you enter a store in Northern Iraq you can see a lot of turkish products and may even start to think that its a Turkish colony. This situation caused some clashes between Iraqi govern and Kurds, ending up with kurds digging posts in the mountains, last year. America made a good effort in diplomacy and silenced central Iraq but this caused a drastically orientation between Iran and Irak. Today, without any hesitation we can say central Iraq is owned by Iran. States seems to be against independent Kurdish Nation and should be "seem" like this. Turkey suffered a lot from terrorism and war between PKK and TURKS caused enormous casualties, any words from an US politician about Kurdish Nation will cause a huge dignity loss for US in Turkish society since they are still highly nationalists. (Kemalism) On the other hand, a free Kurdistan is a danger for Iran, Russia and relatively Armenia. Iran will see Kurdistan as a ally for US, which is more closer to its border. If Syrian kurds try to join a free nation idee, this means strategic loss for Russia and Armenia, is considered an enemy for Kurds, god knows why. (2013 Öcalan speech : Real danger is russia and armenia for kurds) After all of these, i would still prefer Kurds to Arabs. Which one is more tribalistic and dangerous? Turkey stands solid between EU and ASIA, we can still say it is a good ally for both EU and US against any threat from old enemies and new enemies. It counters Russia, counters Iran, both are old eternal enemies of Turks et cetera but however, when it comes to real action, you cant use a nation to establish a controlled region. After tomorrow, ISIS will be defeated in a year and who do you think control those areas left behind from these rats? Syrian regime? Iraqi forces? -lol-. Turkey is working on a law about forgiving terrorists and if they cant regain/integrate pkk members into turkish society, another strong option is placing them in northern Iraq. OR, they will keep on their guerilla service outside of Turkey, this time. Reports say that there are at least 15.000 kurdish terrorists who live in Turkey and total number is between 35.000 - 50.000 in Kurdistan area. There is no possibility of a Turkish - Kurdish war. Why would you think that? Please check this: http://www.todayszaman.com/news-351625-celik-signals-turkey-to-welcome-independent-kurdish-state-in-iraq.html Of course US would back Turks but not like we imagine, remember these bossy words: http://in.reuters.com/article/2008/02/28/idINIndia-32207220080228 Oh, to be fair, it would be better if we could liberate İstanbul, İzmir, Ankara and some other western regions from Turkey. That would really help Turks to get into EU.  Anatolian Turks are still raping donkeys. Those bad things you list about Kurds* are moderately true. Also, this is power theft map of Turkey: http://galeri2.uludagsozluk.com/317/doğuda-kaçak-elektrik-kullanım-oranı_366172.jpg Even so, i still blame Kemalist regime and all the other kemalists for all of these. Those founding fathers tried to play a mini game called "destroying kurds / converting kurds" and they failed hard. They left kurdistan in poverty on purpose, planted hatred seeds in young kurds with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dersim_Massacre and so all. Sadly, Turkey is still ruled by Kemalist propaganda and its fears. When a Kurdish earns a citizenship right a Turk feels nervous about that thanks to their fucking nationalist / militarist bullshit. Do you want a nationalist country in EU? I bet you know what happens when a country goes full nationalist. Answers to your final questions: 1- Syrian Kurds can control some important ports and weaken both Irans and Russias hand in Syria. A kurdish bumber presence can silence Arabic/jihadist terrorism permanently, and secure the petrol ways. 2- So do you think, America left those places, rats find space to gather, and now they are pushing. America had no intel about these before leaving? Was not that obvious ISIS will capture the guns of Syrian rebels, Iraqi forces etc? http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/08/06/iraq.weapons/index.html?iref=nextin And after that 80.000 untraceable aks are lost 15 years ago, i am eager to believe that USA is planning everything. Im not a hater, or im not blaming whole nation for that but i am almost pretty sure after all of these, winning side will always be US with some considerable loss. | ||
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ImFromPortugal
Portugal1368 Posts
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
On September 13 2014 13:17 pls no ty wrote: Before answering your kind post, let me highlight that im not a political analysts nor i am lodging my claims as facts. I am always open for new infos and always ready to change my mind if that is gonna enlighten my views. So im not willing to argue, but learn and benefit. I'm sorry mate but there is absolutely nothing indicating ISIS to be a US puppet. Everything indicates the opposite. In a short speak, Turkey made a lot of trading contracts with Iraqi Kurds without the permission of Iraq. Not only oil, even today if you enter a store in Northern Iraq you can see a lot of turkish products and may even start to think that its a Turkish colony. This situation caused some clashes between Iraqi govern and Kurds, ending up with kurds digging posts in the mountains, last year. America made a good effort in diplomacy and silenced central Iraq but this caused a drastically orientation between Iran and Irak. Today, without any hesitation we can say central Iraq is owned by Iran. Well yes, Turkey sees itself as above everyone else in the Mideast, even countries more developed and wealthier than themselves. The old Ottoman arrogance never really died. Iraq was once a powerful and influential nation, but was destroyed by the embargo and war. Of course Turkey could do what they wanted in dealing with the Iraqi Kurdistan region during the period that Iraq barely existed anymore. Turkey is an enemy of the Arabs (and well, pretty much everyone in the world but the US). So it will lowkey do what it can do to destabilize nations like Iraq by backing Iraqi kurds. The reality is, though, that outside of this motivation, Turkey hates Kurdish people, especially the Kurds in their own country. So it's a two-faced policy. States seems to be against independent Kurdish Nation and should be "seem" like this. Turkey suffered a lot from terrorism and war between PKK and TURKS caused enormous casualties, any words from an US politician about Kurdish Nation will cause a huge dignity loss for US in Turkish society since they are still highly nationalists. (Kemalism) You mean the Kemalism that turned Turkey into a modern and Westernized nation, from a backwards, heavily Islamic one? Turkey is the most against an independent Kurdish nation if it involves their own Kurds, and this Kurdish terrorism you note didn't help either. If Turkey didn't have an interest in demeaning Arab states as much as possible, it would not do anything to aid Iraqi Kurds. But it does, while slamming and destroying those in their own country. On the other hand, a free Kurdistan is a danger for Iran, Russia and relatively Armenia. Iran will see Kurdistan as a ally for US, which is more closer to its border. If Syrian kurds try to join a free nation idee, this means strategic loss for Russia and Armenia, is considered an enemy for Kurds, god knows why. (2013 Öcalan speech : Real danger is russia and armenia for kurds) Free Kurdistan specifically in Iran with US backing is a danger for Iran. But the US has not even considered that option at all. But free Kurdistan in Turkey is also a danger for Turkey. It will lead to more PKK and other Kurdish insurgency, if not a full-on revolution, in Turkey, and the Turks would be delighted to destroy it with the full support of the United States of America, in which case, they will justifiably take direct control of Turkish Kurdistan region in order to ensure no such thing happens again. Do you know about Turkish history, and how Russia bitchslapped the Ottoman jihads left-and-right as they tried to conquer Europe and install Islam? Russia is a powerful nation, but in no way in the current era have they been a threat to or have threatened Turkey. But Turkish politicians are still butthurt over all the lost Ottoman wars against Russia, so they hate Russia and Armenia no matter the circumstances. And do they really consider Armenia a threat? That's pathetic. Armenia is a very tiny country whose people Turkey and their Kurdish allies at the time committed genocide against. So it sounds like your Ocalan is just a standard bigot, but with the addition of being a PKK terrorist. Do you seriously take this man as having legitimacy in his statements? The Kurds feel threatened by the tiny nation of Armenia? Is it because they didn't kill all of them off a century ago? Wow. After all of these, i would still prefer Kurds to Arabs. Which one is more tribalistic and dangerous? Turkey stands solid between EU and ASIA, we can still say it is a good ally for both EU and US against any threat from old enemies and new enemies. It counters Russia, counters Iran, both are old eternal enemies of Turks et cetera but however, when it comes to real action, you cant use a nation to establish a controlled region. After tomorrow, ISIS will be defeated in a year and who do you think control those areas left behind from these rats? Syrian regime? Iraqi forces? -lol-. The Kurds are pretty tribalistic and aggressive. Not so much dangerous though since they don't come within a fraction of the military potential of nations like Arab nations like Egypt and Saudi Arabia, or Iran, or Israel, or Turkey. Turkey counters Russia? That's the first time I've heard that. Maybe in 1600 AD? After ISIS is defeated, in Syria there will still be civil war. In Iraq, the Iraqi government, with the backing of its many allies in Europe, the United States, other Arab nations, and other nations in the world, will retake control. The Kurds in Iraq were a nice political faction to support against Saddam Hussein but with Hussein gone, the US has its full support behind Baghdad, once the center of a strong, secular nation, and everyone's hoping that's what re-emerges, but now without the dictatorship of Hussein. Turkey is working on a law about forgiving terrorists and if they cant regain/integrate pkk members into turkish society, another strong option is placing them in northern Iraq. OR, they will keep on their guerilla service outside of Turkey, this time. Reports say that there are at least 15.000 kurdish terrorists who live in Turkey and total number is between 35.000 - 50.000 in Kurdistan area. There is no possibility of a Turkish - Kurdish war. Why would you think that? Please check this: http://www.todayszaman.com/news-351625-celik-signals-turkey-to-welcome-independent-kurdish-state-in-iraq.html Of course US would back Turks but not like we imagine, remember these bossy words: http://in.reuters.com/article/2008/02/28/idINIndia-32207220080228 As I said before, of course Turkey would demean the "inferior" Arabs by supporting actions that would destabilize them. Ask yourself this: Why doesn't Turkey support an independent Kurdistan state of the Turkish Kurds? I think the answer is pretty obvious. Because it would hurt Turkey itself, rather than "evil" Arabs. Do you realize Bush said that because the Turks were violating Iraqi sovereignty? That says nothing about US not backing Turkey and US relations with Turkey. Bush was telling his ally that what they were doing was wrong and should pull back from it. I don't know how you're reading that the US suddenly secretly despises Turkey. Oh, to be fair, it would be better if we could liberate İstanbul, İzmir, Ankara and some other western regions from Turkey. That would really help Turks to get into EU. Anatolian Turks are still raping donkeys. Those bad things you list about Kurds* are moderately true. Also, this is power theft map of Turkey: http://galeri2.uludagsozluk.com/317/doğuda-kaçak-elektrik-kullanım-oranı_366172.jpg What do you mean by "liberate"? These are the political, economic, and social centers of Turkey. These are the places people look at when they speak well of Turkey and look at Turkey as being a potential Westernized nation. They certainly don't look at Turkish Kurdistan. Are you suggesting that Turkey should be sent backwards or something? I don't understand what you're getting at. And what do you mean by "power theft map"? I can't read Turkish, by the way, so I don't know what the map is saying. Even so, i still blame Kemalist regime and all the other kemalists for all of these. Those founding fathers tried to play a mini game called "destroying kurds / converting kurds" and they failed hard. They left kurdistan in poverty on purpose, planted hatred seeds in young kurds with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dersim_Massacre and so all. Sadly, Turkey is still ruled by Kemalist propaganda and its fears. When a Kurdish earns a citizenship right a Turk feels nervous about that thanks to their fucking nationalist / militarist bullshit. Do you want a nationalist country in EU? I bet you know what happens when a country goes full nationalist. Mmm, Kemal's known for a lot of things, but "destroying the Kurds" game isn't one of them. Turkish Kurdistan was really impoverished to start with. And your own wiki article states that the Turks responded to a violent, warful rebellion. Also, the Kurds certainly aren't victims. The Kurds were paramount in the greatest genocides in the Mideast since the Mongol conquests. Millions of Pontic Greeks, Assyrians, and Armenians were killed by the Turks and Kurds. Meanwhile, those genocides were completely unprovoked, unless you consider "being Christian" to be a provocation. Answers to your final questions: 1- Syrian Kurds can control some important ports and weaken both Irans and Russias hand in Syria. A kurdish bumber presence can silence Arabic/jihadist terrorism permanently, and secure the petrol ways. The Syrian Kurds are in northeastern Syria. They're nowhere near the Mediterranean. What do you mean by controlling important ports? And what do you mean by weakening Iran's and Russia's hand? And silencing jihadist terorrism? They're practically at the mercy of ISIS as we speak. 2- So do you think, America left those places, rats find space to gather, and now they are pushing. America had no intel about these before leaving? Was not that obvious ISIS will capture the guns of Syrian rebels, Iraqi forces etc? http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/08/06/iraq.weapons/index.html?iref=nextin And after that 80.000 untraceable aks are lost 15 years ago, i am eager to believe that USA is planning everything. Im not a hater, or im not blaming whole nation for that but i am almost pretty sure after all of these, winning side will always be US with some considerable loss. Thank you for proving with this article from 2007 an important point that many seem to ignore, that Maliki was a terribly corrupt and vicious dictator, turning Iraq into one of the world's most corrupt nations. Yes, of course tons of weapons and money was lost in corruption. It all went to corrupt players or Iranian-backed terrorist groups. Maliki was an Iranian pawn, through and through. Iraq apparently used to be one of the lesser corrupted nations in Asia, but the US destroyed everything that kept stability, order, and progression in the country with the embargo and wars, turning it into the insane place it is today. Fortunately, that seems to be in revival with the ousting of Maliki from power (His current VP position literally is nothing in terms of government power, and the only reason he was given that is probably so his followers don't start going jihad on people. In all honesty, he deserves a painful execution). Also, don't forget that Maliki completely destroyed the organization and discipline of the Iraqi military by putting his goons in command. It became his private force besides Iraq's force. Fortunately, that is gone. But yes, of course the USA is the winner. Did you expect otherwise? Overall, I still do not see what your motive is (are you Kurdish? No Turks speak like you do, especially in regards to Kemal or the globally-renowned Turkish cities like Istanbul). A Kurdish-Turkish war is a very possible reality if Turkish Kurds resume terrorist operations and insurgency. The Kurds aren't the most intelligent people when it comes to politics, but even radical terrorist groups like PKK have learned that a much greater provocation against Turkey would mean a greater Turkish response and the possible loss of what little legitimacy Turkish Kurds have. And of course there are Kurdish terorrists in Turkey. There have always been Kurdish terrorists in Turkey? So, how do you conclude that this means no Kurdish-Turkish war? It seems like it would lead to the opposite, and before a year ago, there was a long Kurdish-Turkish conflict as a result of these Kurdish terrorists, so I really don't understand you on this point. From claiming that ISIS is a US puppet, to now saying how all the problems in the Mideast can be solved by Turkish Kurds, how the Turks are basically savages (Istanbul and Ankara are such terrible, uncivilized places?), how no such thing as Turkish-Kurdish conflict could exist if there was to be Turkish Kurdish revolution due to, as you claim, the presence of Kurdish terrorists that have always existed, I really don't understand what you're getting at. Like I said in my last post, independent Kurdish people in Turkey would be a benefit to Turkey and Turkish ascendancy to the EU, not the other way around as you claim. It's not the modern and Westernized people in Istanbul, Izmir, and Ankara that are preventing Turkey from entering the EU. It's some dumb village people and the Kurdish society which isn't as developed as "standard" Turkey. In other words, it's pretty old school compared to what you see in modern places you condemn like Istanbul, and people in the EU don't like that old-school way of doing things. Perhaps the Turkish Kurds and old-school village folk should become more modern as a society. It would benefit themselves and Turkey as a whole. | ||
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pls no ty
86 Posts
On September 13 2014 16:03 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: I'm sorry mate but there is absolutely nothing indicating ISIS to be a US puppet. Everything indicates the opposite. What is the opposite? On September 13 2014 16:03 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: Well yes, Turkey sees itself as above everyone else in the Mideast, even countries more developed and wealthier than themselves. The old Ottoman arrogance never really died. Not really. If we are comparing Turkey with a country from EU, Turks will accept that they are not as developed as them. On September 13 2014 16:03 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: Turkey is an enemy of the Arabs (and well, pretty much everyone in the world but the US) Citiation needed. On September 13 2014 16:03 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Turkey hates Kurdish people, especially the Kurds in their own country. So it's a two-faced policy. Wrong. Old Turkey hates Kurdish people. Kemalist regime tried to destroy every ethnic group or tried to convert them into Turkish. Firstly, you should have known and agree this fact. The people you call modern and westernised -from west coast of turkey- are highly nationalist and still denying kurdish existence. According to them, if you are not calling yourself Turkish, you should leave the country. Love it or hate it, even though he is a dictator and i dont like him, Erdogan focused on destroying this racist idea. He gained too many votes from liberals, and kurds by doing that. There are 15 millions of Kurdish people in Turkey and Selahattin Demirtaş (kurdish leader) took only 4 millions of vote when he was trying to be elected as president.. This is it. And those 4 millions are not separatists, they want sovereign democracy in Kurdish area, which is quite okay with me. http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/pm-erdogan-no-concessions-made-during-kurdish-peace-process.aspx?pageID=238&nID=69513&NewsCatID=338 http://webcdn.aa.com.tr/webdocs/625x424xc/content_new/449/552bf2e0-4eb5-11e3-9784-257ebaedd36b-jpg20131116140230.jpg http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/03/us-turkey-election-kurds-idUSBREA3218L20140403 On September 13 2014 16:03 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: You mean the Kemalism that turned Turkey into a modern and Westernized nation, from a backwards, heavily Islamic one? Turkey is the most against an independent Kurdish nation if it involves their own Kurds, and this Kurdish terrorism you note didn't help either. If Turkey didn't have an interest in demeaning Arab states as much as possible, it would not do anything to aid Iraqi Kurds. But it does, while slamming and destroying those in their own country. Hmm. Maybe you should start reading basic Turkish history from an objective history book. Kemalism made major mistakes that waste the growing potential of democracy. If you have any interest for Turkish history (like me ) you can buy this: http://www.amazon.com/Turkey-History-Erik-J-Zurcher/dp/1860649580 After 18th century, Ottomans were not heavily Islamic. Just to remind you, they built the schools that grow Mustafa Kemal and many other important soldiers, politicians. After French revolution, like all the other ethnics, Turks started to plant their own nationalist ideas. Turkish nationalism founded Turkey with the aid of Islamic propaganda. Later on, they built a secular system, sadly, attacking both right and left ideas and finally, silencing them. I could not find an English translation: http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takrir-i_Sükûn_Kanunu This law is about silencing all media, all opinions, parties, if they are not Kemalist. Who killed Sabahattin Ali? Who killed Mustafa Suphi? Who killed İbrahim kaypakkaya? Also you can read: Debating Turkish Modernity: Civilization, Nationalism, and the EEC - And some fun quotes: http://espressostalinist.com/2013/08/31/ibrahim-kaypakkayas-analysis-of-kemalism/ On September 13 2014 16:03 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: Free Kurdistan specifically in Iran with US backing is a danger for Iran. But the US has not even considered that option at all. But free Kurdistan in Turkey is also a danger for Turkey. It will lead to more PKK and other Kurdish insurgency Not anymore. Again, in the leaked meetings of national intelligence organization with PKK, Turkey is arguing a solution about PKK members becoming a joint force in Turkish Army in Kurdish areas including outside and inside. Would you believe this? But this is happening. Im not saying this will happen in close future, but one of the nominated undersecretary for national intelligence is a member of PKK suggested by Öcalan, to Hakan Fidan. :D On September 13 2014 16:03 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: Do you know about Turkish history, and how Russia bitchslapped the Ottoman jihads left-and-right as they tried to conquer Europe and install Islam? Russia is a powerful nation, but in no way in the current era have they been a threat to or have threatened Turkey. But Turkish politicians are still butthurt over all the lost Ottoman wars against Russia, so they hate Russia and Armenia no matter the circumstances. I dont care how many times Russian kicked Otto asses. That is still my favorite: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_War Whole Ottoman history is about kicking ass, or being bitchslapped by western countries. I love the drama. However, its a clear West victory over one of the greatest empire world had. I cant read any butthurt from Turkish politicians or soldiers. But they dont like Russia because of communism. Did you check how Turkey joined Nato? On September 13 2014 16:03 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: And do they really consider Armenia a threat? That's pathetic. Armenia is a very tiny country whose people Turkey and their Kurdish allies at the time committed genocide against. There is no evidence of genocide, numbers are wrong. Its about 200.000 to 400.000. Which is still a huge number. Its a massacre that Turkey should apologize. Instead of revealing the truth and respecting the deaths, both Armenia and Turkey are playing for their own. Armenians made a huge mistake by bringing fake reports. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Memoirs_of_Naim_Bey On September 13 2014 16:03 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: So it sounds like your Ocalan is just a standard bigot, but with the addition of being a PKK terrorist. Do you seriously take this man as having legitimacy in his statements? The Kurds feel threatened by the tiny nation of Armenia? Is it because they didn't kill all of them off a century ago? Wow. No i dont. Its not me, PKK. I suppose after peace with Turkey and foundation of Kurdistan, they will return their faces to older enemy of Kurds, which is Armenia. Seriously i dont know why (maybe soil, maybe important trade route, maybe revenge of armenian interfere of Kurdish - Turkish conflict ) but this is Ocalans opinion and whole PKK is looking at his mouth. On September 13 2014 16:03 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: That's the first time I've heard that. Maybe in 1600 AD? Syria was Russian right arm, Turkey was American. Syria and Iran and Russia creating a pact. Turkey is allying with America, planting radars, granting Incirlik, holding nuclear weapons for America bla bla bla. http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=turkey Third powerful army in Nato. On September 13 2014 16:03 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: After ISIS is defeated, in Syria there will still be civil war. In Iraq, the Iraqi government, with the backing of its many allies in Europe, the United States, other Arab nations, and other nations in the world, will retake control. The Kurds in Iraq were a nice political faction to support against Saddam Hussein but with Hussein gone, the US has its full support behind Baghdad, once the center of a strong, secular nation, and everyone's hoping that's what re-emerges, but now without the dictatorship of Hussein. We will see. But Baghad is not secular, heavily shia. On September 13 2014 16:03 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: Do you realize Bush said that because the Turks were violating Iraqi sovereignty? That says nothing about US not backing Turkey and US relations with Turkey. Bush was telling his ally that what they were doing was wrong and should pull back from it. I don't know how you're reading that the US suddenly secretly despises Turkey. Turkey was marching into Northern Iraq because terrorists were fleeing there. But America said, bro, thats enough. I was saying this, nothing else. But can you please tell me, what is gonna happen after Germany arms Kurds in Iraq after they dealt with ISIS, will kurds give the weapons back or weapons will become a danger for Turkey. Merkel said, they are gonna take the risk. This means PKK will get those weapons either way. What can Turks do about that? If we take this as a serious problem, this is a direct help from West to PKK. But we all believe this peace will last eternally. On September 13 2014 16:03 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: What do you mean by "liberate"? These are the political, economic, and social centers of Turkey. These are the places people look at when they speak well of Turkey and look at Turkey as being a potential Westernized nation. They certainly don't look at Turkish Kurdistan. Are you suggesting that Turkey should be sent backwards or something? I don't understand what you're getting at. And what do you mean by "power theft map"? I can't read Turkish, by the way, so I don't know what the map is saying. I was joking about liberate thing, because Anatolia is not Kurdish, yet still as bad as Turkish Kurdistan. In order to fasten EU membership, we need to get rid of Anatolia completely. In that power theft map, you can see Kurds steal electricity from Turkey in great ratios. On September 13 2014 16:03 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: Mmm, Kemal's known for a lot of things, but "destroying the Kurds" game isn't one of them. Please read Ismet Inonus Kurdish reports about converting Kurds into Turks by moving them from their land or killing them after accusing with treason. Dersim Massacre was planned by Ataturk. Turks responded to a rebellion? Kurdish people stood against this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1934_Turkish_Resettlement_Law Seyit Rıza (kurdish leader of the era) wrote a letter to regime, says he is ready for peace, he is accepting that he and his forces will move out from Turkey but regime should assure that Kurdish people wont be harmed or forced to move. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seyid_Riza Turkey accepted this cease fire and invited him to negotiate, but with a planned ambush, he and his son sentenced to death, following the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zilan_massacre. After killing thousand man, woman and babies (reports say soldiers bayonet babies and beheaded many man and woman, Kemalists tried to convert Kurdish: http://www.todayszaman.com/news-289411-parliament-to-reunite-lost-girls-of-dersim-with-families.html On September 13 2014 16:03 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: Meanwhile, those genocides were completely unprovoked, unless you consider "being Christian" to be a provocation.[ Jihad = Crusade for me. Sorry, i wont play Turks are evils game this night. On September 13 2014 16:03 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The Syrian Kurds are in northeastern Syria. They're nowhere near the Mediterranean. What do you mean by controlling important ports? And what do you mean by weakening Iran's and Russia's hand? And silencing jihadist terorrism? They're practically at the mercy of ISIS as we speak. Kurdish forces claim almost %35 of current Syria including trade centers, routes. On September 13 2014 16:03 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: Overall, I still do not see what your motive is Im not Kurdish, as i wrote above i have a great interest in Turkish-Ottoman history as well as my interest to Chinese, British and Greek ones. My motivate comes from my studies. On September 13 2014 16:03 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: It's not the modern and Westernized people in Istanbul, Izmir, and Ankara that are preventing Turkey from entering the EU. It's some dumb village people and the Kurdish society which isn't as developed as "standard" Turkey. In other words, it's pretty old school compared to what you see in modern places you condemn like Istanbul, and people in the EU don't like that old-school way of doing things. Perhaps the Turkish Kurds and old-school village folk should become more modern as a society. It would benefit themselves and Turkey as a whole. Point out any Kurdish villager faults: http://www.debatingeurope.eu/focus/infobox-arguments-for-and-against-turkeys-eu-membership/#.VBS2FvmSwUM http://www.answers.com/Q/Why_is_Turkey_not_part_of_the_European_Union Turkey has a lot of problems about human rights, economy, democracy, nationalism et cetera. Simply, Turkey needs a new regime, more liberal, still secular, not a french type nation but American type. | ||
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AngryMag
Germany1040 Posts
Does anyone have useful information regarding Yemen? Nothing to hear from that area, the last time this happened was when the Saudis crushed the protesters in Bahrain. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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kwizach
3658 Posts
On September 13 2014 00:30 WhiteDog wrote: I don't even understand how he can decide by himself what France will do in regard to Iraq considering he is at 12 % approval rating and that people are so upset they go as far as paying planes to drag advertising asking for his demission. Because he was elected president ,-) | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
Rebels including al Qaeda loyalists have seized most of the Syrian side of the armistice line with Israel on the Golan Heights, a monitoring group said on Saturday. Al Qaeda affiliate Al-Nusra Front and its allies launched a major offensive against government forces in Quneitra province last month, capturing the sole crossing point over the armistice line to the Israeli-occupied sector of the strategic plateau. "The regime is on the retreat before the advancing rebels," Syrian Observatory for Human Rights director Rami Abdel Rahman told AFP. "The regime has now lost control of about 80 percent of towns and villages in Quneitra province." The rebels seized 45 UN peacekeepers on the Golan on August 28 and held them hostage until Thursday. Source The Syrian Army and Hezbollah have reportedly been given orders by Syrian President Bashar Al-Assad to shoot down any foreign planes flying over Syria airspace. Assad’s troop and Hezbollah are fighting together against the Syrian Rebels, who range from secular freedom fighters, to Al Quida, and ultimately ISIS. Assad is supported by Iran and Russia. The threat seems to be directed specifically at the United States which may be planning to attack Daash (ISIS) inside Syria, by air. Source | ||
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sgtnoobkilla
Australia249 Posts
On September 14 2014 13:15 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: The Syrian Army and Hezbollah have reportedly been given orders by Syrian President Bashar Al-Assad to shoot down any foreign planes flying over Syria airspace. Assad’s troop and Hezbollah are fighting together against the Syrian Rebels, who range from secular freedom fighters, to Al Quida, and ultimately ISIS. Assad is supported by Iran and Russia. The threat seems to be directed specifically at the United States which may be planning to attack Daash (ISIS) inside Syria, by air. Source Sigh. Not that it's okay for the U.S. to just zip in and out of Syria as it pleases, but Assad's really a few cakes short of a picnic here if he thinks it's a good idea to shoot down USN jets out of the sky... | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5281 Posts
US/EU/NATO/UN brings its planes+drones, other superpowers bring and test their detection and striking capabilities. | ||
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